John Cooper Answers Questions About NAR Abuse  🔗 **Source:** [John Cooper Answers Questions About NAR Abuse](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKLEZ8ASFig) [00:00:00] I've been saying [music] if we are the Holy Spirit people then we would have far less sin in our leadership than the cessationist church. I was more than shocked. I was panicking. You have spoken in pretty harsh terms about deconstruction and and church hurt >> and it becomes a transactional revivalism. Aren't you kind of being selective in your outrage? [music] Because the same dangers are present within this senior pastor model where there's one man at the top. And oh, I'm going to get emotional saying this. Just a heads up, we did have some [00:00:42] technical issues with John's upload. So sometimes his audio and his video will be a little bit disjointed. And honestly, there's nothing we could do about it. So, if that drives you nuts, maybe just listen uh rather than watch. Uh but you're going to enjoy this. Anyway, welcome to the Minor Profits podcast. I'm John Mark Baker, joined by my wonderful co-host, David Fish. >> Yeah, I'm excited. We have an amazing guest uh today. >> Yeah. John Cooper from Skrilix. I'm so excited that you're [laughter] you decided to join us. >> It's pronounced Skittles. All right. What I wanted to talk to you about is some of the processing the on the [00:01:25] emotional and spiritual side because a lot of the people who watch this channel, they're disaffected charismatics. They're people who are a little bit disillusioned by the, you know, the the fallout of IHOP and and Bethl and Shawn BS and and all this stuff. And they're compass kind of been spinning a little bit and they're wondering like what is this Christianity thing and and how do I walk this out? And I think hearing from somebody like yourself who we know your story, we know what you've walked through and your attempts at obeying the commands of Jesus in the wake of this, I think would be really helpful. But for those who may not be aware, would you be able to give us maybe a sketch of what it was you walked through in this N church? [00:02:11] >> Yeah. Yeah, that'd be great. Um, well, it's great to be here. I appreciate you having me, guys. Uh, having me here. Um the brief version is just this um was in a church uh for a very long time uh 30 years. Um and it also was family. It was my my wife's dad started the church in the 80s. It got linked up with a group of um British apostles in the 90s. Um Brenn Jones was the the apostles name. Now, a lot of people do not know the name Bin Jones, but what a lot of people are unaware of is uh in all the research that I've done, and I am no scholar, but but I've tried to figure out where these roots come from. It does seem to me that [00:02:55] the British restorationists were some of the first to ever put these latter reign ideas into an actual ecclesiological structure where they actually did translocal apostolic work a and in an authoritative sense. We're not talking about missionaries. We're not [laughter] we're not talking about church planters. We're talking about a top-down leadership model. Okay. So, I will say um since well, no, I'll get back to that in a second. Um and so we were in these churches for a very long time and the truth is I loved the church. There were lots of great things about it. Um the church was charismatic. My particular stream was not what I [00:03:39] would call hyper charismatic. um we didn't have people falling down, rolling on the ground in fire tunnels or it wasn't sensational in the way that you see some of the like the healing ministries. And in fact, there were some things about my church because some people have said, "How could you not have recognized this?" I will just say there were a lot of things about our church that were extremely not non uh hyperccharismatic. um the the Passion translation was outlawed at our church. Uh now, you know, funny enough, actually, um one of the elders at the church was one of the owners of Broad Street Publishing that published the Passion Translation. And I remember back in 11, 2011 or 12 or [00:04:24] something, and I've never said this in a podcast, so this is uh this is brand new information that the the public doesn't know, but I remember this elder inviting people from the church to come meet this Apostle Brian Simmons, who had done a new translation. And I thought that sounds bizarre. And I asked my apostle who was my best friend and he said, "No, this is bizarre. We are not going to allow this thing in our church. You can't mess with the word of God like this." So I will say there was a lot of very orthodox things. My apostle did not believe in word of faith theology. He did not believe that um um divine healing is guaranteed because of the cross. Uh what do they call that? Uh, I [00:05:07] forget what that's called, but we prayed for healing. We prayed like charismatics, but we did not hold to the theology that God's going to heal everybody all the time. We had a better a better, in my opinion, a better theology of suffering, I feel like. So, there was a lot of great stuff, but lurking underneath it was this apostle and prophet thing, but mainly apostles. So that's another reason that we were a little different than NR because NR is a little bit more like apostle and prophet together. Our system was more like the British restorationist which was apostle at the top, a prophet underneath him. And the apostle would if there were prophetic words. It wasn't really weighed by a team. It was really [00:05:51] dependent upon the pos the apostles vision to know if that prophetic word was for now, which parts of it for now, which parts were good or bad and things like that that I never really understood and and didn't like. Um, I've never been comfortable with the idea of an apostle or a prophet today, but I loved my church. I really did. I'm I'm I'm not trying to create distance. I loved the church. And so basically, long story short, as I began to push against some things at our church over the last several years, um I became kind of deeply um interested in theology around 2015 and 16. And and I love theology. And the more that I read the Bible and began to [00:06:37] understand it, I began to push back against some things that I did not realize were pro probably cares probably cares or Pentecostal doctrine that I was unaware of and I just thought maybe we needed to to reform. I didn't know I was pushing against the entire movement. I just thought we were doing some things that were a little off, if that makes sense. And as I began to kind of question quote unquote apostolic authority, uh, I didn't understand what was happening and and the things that began to be said to me, I started recognizing as stuff I had heard about N. And which is really funny because I'm good friends with Alisa Childers and she would talk about apostles in a way that I did not [00:07:21] recognize. And I I I had a a big argument with Alisa Childers years ago. I was like, "Alisa, you guys are making too big of a deal about this apostolic thing. There's no way. There's no way that these people mean what you're saying." And uh and I was wrong. And uh so that's kind of my story. Things got very bad though. And we kind of got in a way pushed out of the church. We were lied about. We've been said uh our my my apostle who was my best friend for 30 years um you know has said insinuated publicly several times that we were being used by the devil. The de um he actually wrote in one of his papers to his elders that all of these doctrinal [00:08:04] concerns were actually a demonic smokec screen. It was a false piety to make it sound like that we cared about the Bible, but really all we wanted to do is tear down the apostolic ministry and the kingdom of God. And some of this stuff was said publicly. And so things got very, very ugly. And so that's kind of where it's at today. And the last thing I'll say, if you don't mind, is just um I was a little hesitant to come on the podcast because um I have a rule, and this is a good rule of life. Everybody write it down. Uh if you've been duped by a cult, and you just left a cult, you should sit down and not tell other people how to live the Christian life. [00:08:47] Take a break. [laughter] You need to shut up for a little while. And I I have tried to shut up for the most part for about two years just in a place of humility saying, "Hey, I I don't want to teach anybody. I still share the gospel. I'm a musician. Um, and I I share the love of Christ from stage and offstage. And I am absolutely qualified to share the gospel of grace because I'm a sinner that needs Christ every day just like everybody else. But in I I was a little hesitant to come on here, but but John Mark said, "Hey, maybe it could be encouraging to some people that have gone through a similar thing to you." And and that's why I'm here. I'm not here to tell anybody what you have to believe or that you should [00:09:30] run from the charismatic movement or I'm not here to tell you any of that stuff. I'm just here to tell you my story and how I have survived and jettisoned some of the things maybe that I think were not helpful for me. And I finally can thank God for the season. I can thank God for the suffering. I can thank God that I came through it because I'm I'm more intimate with Christ now, I think, than I ever have been because I I know who he is a bit better. My positionality, I think, has changed as I've jettisoned some things that were really not good and come to a place of real humility and dependence upon Christ. And so, I will share my story. Last thing, because you have to say it, and I'll probably say it 30 times in [00:10:12] this episode. I love charismatics. I do not hate charismatics. And I know because if I say anything negative about charismaticism, I mean, I have friends of mine that have texted me like, "John, I can't believe that you're mudslinging against Bill Johnson and and charismatics and people aren't going to believe in the gifts." And I I I can't say it enough times, you guys. I've been in the charismatic church for 35 years. I love charismatic people. I still refer to them as my people. Or if I talk about charismatics, I say we. Even though I don't consider myself charismatic any longer, I probably never truly was charismatic. I was I was a cautious continuationist. But 30 years ago, if you were a cautious [00:10:56] continuationist, there wasn't a lot of room for you in cessationist churches. And if you believed in any way that God might give a word in tongues, it could happen, you kind of just considered yourself charismatic. And so, I guess what I'm trying to say is I probably never truly was. I didn't buy into all the Pentecostal doctrine. But that doesn't mean that I don't love charismatic people. I'm not here to tear it all down. I'm just here to share my story. >> Now, that that's so helpful. Uh so helpful, John. And I mean, you're talking to two guys who recently just had to do an hour and a half episode called Are We Becoming Cessationists? Uh because that's probably the most frequent thing that is thrown at us is essentially if you critique some of the [00:11:39] more harmful and abusive structures that have grown up within Pentecostal, charismatic Christianity, um there can kind of be the assumption that you have gone all the way over to this other direction. But I want to just key in on something that's really really important which happens in almost all of these discussions which is the how could you have not seen it? How could you have not recognized? It's really important for people to know when you start talking about Brit British restorationism. Some people's eyes might glaze over and be like why are we getting into this like arcane historical background? But actually this is really important. One of the apostles um that uh I remember coming through our church multiple times [00:12:21] when I was young was a guy named Tony Morton. Uh now Tony Morton was one of the guys right alongside Bren Jones in the British Restorationist movement. Um the irony of the British restorationist movement is it split in two and both claimed to be the restoration of apostles and prophets and they were both fighting with each other. So there can't be two restorations at the same time. But anyways, but what people don't realize is particularly uh the way that that came into Britain, British charismatics are just so much more low-key than American charismatics. Right? We're not talking Beny Hinn theatrics that are going on here. Right? When you hear some of these British apostolic guys talk, they sound so much more sane to be honest in a lot of ways. [00:13:07] um they they don't buy into a lot of the craziness that you see, you know, in Charisma magazine and whatever. And so I think it's important for people to understand that there are different flavors of apostolic prophetic type stuff and the British stuff is considerably less dramatic in a way that it makes it harder to spot and it it it's not all one flavor. Um, but what we did want to ask is, you know, when you look at the abuse and the pain and the collateral damage of all of these, you know, bodies under the bus, so to speak, that that has come out of the situation and you look at the kind of N ecclesiology specifically, how do you [00:13:52] see those two things working together in such a way where you can't say, "Oh, yeah, there was abuse, but it's not connected at all to their theology." You know, these are two totally different things. How do you see those things actually kind of working together? >> Hey, shout out to Creation Coffee for sponsoring this video. I have been drinking Creation Coffee every single morning for years. And I'm a coffee snob. I've got to have it fresh roasted. It's got to be single origin. I got to have those flavor notes coming out. And Creation Coffee checks all of those boxes. I have creation coffee delivered to my door every single week so that I know every morning I'm having excellent coffee. And if you want to have excellent coffee and support minor profits, check the link down below and [00:14:35] use my promo code MP and you will be doing a great service not only to yourself because you've got excellent coffee, but also to us to help us continue what we're doing with this channel. So check out Creation Coffee. Use promo code MP for 10% off any coffee order. Thank you so much, Creation Coffee. Back to the video. >> Yeah, it's a really great question and um if you don't mind, would you mind if I answer by reading a couple of quotes? Let's see. I got some books here. I read a whole the last couple of years I dug into this. So, let me read this from uh this is Dominion by C. Peter Wagner. And of course, he's the one that named uh [00:15:20] that gave the title New Apostolic Reformation. Let me read this. This is page 59 for anybody who wants to check my research. Peter writes, sorry, like I know him. Peter Wagner writes, "What is theology? What are we talking about? What is theology anyway?" Here is my attempt at a definition. Theology is a human attempt to explain God's word and God's works in a reasonable and systematic way. This is not a traditional definition. For one thing, it considers God's works as one valid source of theological information. That means if we see some sort of manifestation and we go, I'm not sure if that lines up with scripture, it doesn't matter [00:16:03] because the work itself can impact our version of theology. Right? That's what he's saying. And then he says for another it sees God's word as both what is written in the Bible logos as well as what God is currently revealing Rama. Admittedly a downside of seeing theology in this way is possible subjectivity. [laughter] You think um but the upside is more relevance to what the spirit is currently saying to the churches. Teachers research and expound the logos. Prophets bring the Rama. And apostles put it together and point the direction into the future. So what Peter Wagner is saying right here is that how do we have [00:16:49] good theology? We need prophets and we need apostles or we cannot have good theology. So to answer your question, if apostles and prophets are the only ones that have this special access to what God is saying, and without that we can't even have good theology, we can't even exactly know who God is because the way we know who God is is what he has revealed to us. And so if only prophets and apostles really have the true knowledge of of what is revealed, then we can only know God through apostles and prophets today. So we have to have them restored and at each church has got to have them or else your church is [00:17:31] going to be deficient. So to me it's an obvious implication that that is I'm not saying that means there you know there absolutely will be abuse every single time. Maybe you get some incredibly humble man. He may have an arrogant doctrine about his office of apostle, but he may be really really humble and never want to treat people in in in a certain way. That might actually be true. But when it comes to theological abuse, you will have theological abuse if that is your definition of theology. And then I want to read one more. Um I know you guys actually read this recently. This is [00:18:15] from Culture of Honor Danny Silk on page 68. But when the church insists on having a logical culture, we demand a logical gospel and therefore we turn to the teachers. Most teachers today are fixated on the written word of God. They believe that the word of God is the source of life and truth on the earth. Correct? Their value for the word is much higher than their need for the supernatural. These are the lawyers, scribes, and Pharisees of our day. So, I'm not going to continue to read read the rest, but this is what these men think about Bible teachers. This is what they think about mere elders. This is what they think about mere fathers and [00:18:59] mothers leading your their their children in the Lord. This is what they think about mere homegroup leaders. Imagine what they think about evangelists, unless those evangelists are are doing miracles all the time and making everybody's legs grow. So when I read this stuff, I I will say and and and I'm not I'm not going to hide my disdain. Again, love charismatics. I'm not talking to you. I'm talking about the leadership that's writing this kind of um dril. Speaking of British people, there's a good word for you. Um I just I I this this really disgusted me in a way that I I can't explain because it is not Protestant. It ruins the entire concept of a kingdom of priests and the [00:19:43] priesthood of all believers. It ruins the concept of the sufficiency of scripture. I It's just the opposite of of what true leadership is. So, I would just say I think in the ecclesiology itself is just rife for abuse because they do believe that these men have some sort of supernatural ability to know secret knowledge that no one else can know. And the the net result is that it cannot be tested. So if if you need the revelation of a special type of person, an an apostle and you can't arrive at truth apart from their revelation. Then somebody checking something to say, I [00:20:25] don't think that that's true. The natural rejoinder can be, well, you don't think that because you're just a teacher and you need an apostle in order to explain this to you. And I'm trying to explain this to you, but you just can't get it because you don't have my special insight. What that basically says is that truth is not uh prospicuous to all. Instead, truth is is oluded. It's hidden behind this spiritual veil. And you need to have the secret knowledge. There's a a trigger word for you uh in order to actually arrive at true theology. And that is the practical working out that you yourself experienced, right? >> Oh yeah, absolutely. that that's kind of what happened. Um because I am a um um I'm just a I'm a very reformed [00:21:11] Protestant. And so I thought that we I thought that all Protestants agreed. And this is some of my naivity, but I thought that we all agreed on certain things like like being a Berean uh saying, "Yeah, we're going to check your work." I actually thought it was the responsibility of the congregation to check the elders or the apostle or whoever's up there teaching. I thought it was our responsibility to check their work, make sure that they're doing their job because, you know, as I remember it and you know, the book of Revelation, Jesus actually says, "Hey, it's a really good job that you guys found these false apostles. You did not allow this, etc., [00:21:55] etc." And so, yeah, I I I think that that's when we started butting heads and at some point these arguments would would never um they would never we would never get to the bottom of any of anything. And you know, like when you read those quotes I just read you, you there's no way that that you would read what Peter Wagner just said. We got to have prophets because they see the Rama word of God and what God's doing in the world and we need apostles to put it into action. You can never read that and say, "Well, apostles are just missionaries." You can't actually do that. That that wouldn't make any sense because nobody Baptist churches don't send missionaries out and be like, "Well, they're the only ones that have vision to know what God's [00:22:38] truly doing in the earth." Otherwise, you'd want you'd want them at your church leading your church [laughter] or you'd want them somehow in government over you, you know. So, yeah, that's when I started having that. And at some point my my apostle said to me when we were arguing about something because I kept coming with bib biblical arguments and and again my my principles were this like scripture alone kingdom of priest etc etc and at some point he said he said Cooper do you not think that I'm an apostle and I was just flabbergasted I I didn't know what I didn't understand what that question meant and I had no framework work for that because I just [00:23:21] don't believe it. So it's a long answer to say yeah I I think that all this is connected and it just well I I will say one more thing actually not that we want to go down this trail but also remembering that most of these not all it it's not fair to say all and so I need to be more circumspect in my language not all of these apostles but many of them also never truly rejected the teachings of the shephering movement it and like this very high spiritual authority that you that you would see from people like the shephering movement um John Bevere's undercover is kind of a repetition of of [00:24:05] spiritual author watchman knee uh um or the shephering movement they they very much believed in those things in fact that was really interesting David you telling about the the Morton apostle or whoever from from from the British restorationist but the shephering movement and The British restorationists did things together all the time. There's a man called Ern Baxter that was one of the five, they called them the Fort Lauderdale 5 that created the shephering movement. Ern Baxter is one of the biggest heroes of the British restorationist movement or at least in in Bren Jones and his brother Carrie Jones that real. I mean, they love them some Ern Baxter. Um, and I and I'll be [00:24:48] the first to say that Ern Baxter has taught a lot of great things. His some of his books are awesome. But I will say Ern Baxter also was involved in three of the most, to my opinion, just my opinion, I would say harmful false Christian movements of the of the last century. He he was William Br. He was William Bronnham's partner in their healing ministries. He was the teacher for William Bronnham. He and he did that for several years. And William Bronn was teaching all sorts of wack stuff even before Baxter left him. Um and they both promoted the latter reign. The latter [00:25:32] reign became so authoritarian. Um they were telling people that if they were still in in denominational churches, they need to be rebaptized and things like that. And so Ern Baxter was involved in that. And then Ern Baxter became involved in the shephering movement which we all know is one of the biggest abuses I think in charismatic history probably in terms of of the of the more mainline charismatic churches. And then he gets involved in the British restorationist stuff which I think my personal opinion not everybody agrees with this but I think that NAR was birthed out of a co-mingling of British restorationism and shephering movement. So, I that doesn't mean everything Ern Baxter taught was wrong. Um, and to my [00:26:16] knowledge, some people have disagreed with me about this, too. Do your own research, but a lot of people got mad at me on the Alisa Childers podcast because I was talking about um one of the guys, oh gosh, who's the who was the guy that was in the five the Fort Lauderdale 5 that kind of created the deliverance the modern deliverance thing? >> Yeah. A lot of people got really mad at me. He he repented for shephering movement cuz in in a two and a half hour podcast you don't have time to say everything. So let's say it loud and clear. Uh four of the five Fort Lauderdale 5 repented for the shephering movement. Some people say that Ern Baxter did as well. I cannot find any research that says that he did, but I've [00:26:59] heard a lot of people say yes, John. Fair enough. Do your own research. But the other four did, which we can appreciate. >> Yeah. No, there's so much there, man. There's so much good stuff. I I could go a million directions, but one I'll say in passing, Ern Baxter is basically single-handedly responsible for concocting the very nuanced uh rehabilitation of William Brham. Uh so Ern Baxter is the one who said in New Wine magazine in the 70s that um Brandham got off at the end of his life because and this is the where the five-fold stuff way before Danny Silk right way before Danny Silk Ern Baxter was saying it was because Brandham tried to step into the role of a teacher but [00:27:44] he was supposed to be an evangelist and a and a miracle worker. So the issue was not that this guy as John Collins has very abley demonstrated was a fraud and a charlatan from day one. Uh >> lied about his entire background, right? Said he, you know, had this crazy Pentecostal experience when actually he was in a Pentecostal church the whole time and just totally lied about it. Um so Ern Baxter in one sense that that's that's also true. He >> he was responsible for mainstreaming William Brandham by concocting this you know this narrative. The second thing I wanted to point out that's really really important um just in passing the the logos rama distinction um pe people should just know that that entire [00:28:27] distinction is made up it doesn't exist in the original language and just to give one brief example uh and then I want to ask you a question about this um Hebrews 1:3 says uh that God sustains all things uh by his powerful word right um second Peter three says that God uh by God's word the heavens came into being. Uh one of those is logos, one of them is Rama. It's the same exact thing being described which is the creation and the sustaining of the universe. And that happens all over the Old Testament where the ten commandments are described as as logos and then Rama in the same sentence. So basically they're just being used synonymously. But that why [00:29:10] does that matter? It matters because they will say, and John, I'm sure you heard this a million times, by making the logos rama distinction, you can say, "Well, it's all the Bible, but it's just you only have the Logos of the Bible, and I have the Rama of the Bible." And so, they can twist it to where, "No, no, it's not New Revelation. It's just the Rama of the scripture." And that is so toxic because it it makes people think that the apostle or prophet's new revelations are actually just things in scripture that haven't been viewed properly. And and this links directly with what your apostle was teaching which is what Katherryn Crick and others teach which is that the p the you know they devoted themselves to the apostles [00:29:55] teaching in Acts chapter 2 refers to the ongoing teaching ministry of of apostles. So, so maybe just before I even read the quote that I'll read later at some point, maybe just talk about that specific message and the impact that had of of devoting yourself to the teaching of the apostle. >> Yeah, David, you just did a really good job uh explaining that. You both of you are much more knowledgeable than me, but I've done a lot of of research the last couple of years, and you just said that so succinctly. Now, this is the thing. I I don't feel like my church ever outright taught what you just said, but it was believed from the leadership and [00:30:38] and I I don't know how to explain this, but it's almost like they taught it through the way they functioned, but but but they didn't actually say it. Does that make sense? I never heard there's a distinction between logos and Rama. Now, sometimes they would say, "Hey, it's the now word of God." They would say now word of God mean and what they mean is Rama, but I never knew what they meant when they said the now. I just thought it was a really weird embellishment that made somebody think that something was super spiritual. I I I I know it makes me sound stupid, but in charismatic circles, you kind of get used to people saying words that I don't necessarily agree with what they mean, but you kind of know like like the anointing, you know what I mean? I I would be like, [00:31:22] "Yeah, I just know what they're saying." and I and and I'm fine for them to say it and I exist in this. So what happened to me when I got really into theology um I read a book called um it was uh the author is John Frame. John Frame is a reformed theologian. He has an amazing systematic theology but the particular section is called um the doctrine of the word of God and uh Ji Packer wrote the forward and Jiper says this is the most magnificent uh book that's been written on the subject of the word of God and and I Packer is one of my biggest heroes. So I [00:32:04] was like, "Oh, I'm reading this." And that book absolutely changed my life. And I thought that that's what I just thought that's what all Christians believed about the word of God. Does that make sense? And so living in in that thing when when all of the sudden after we said we were leaving and my apostle did this teaching about being devoted to the apostles teachings, but he meant him. I had no framework for what he was talking about. And so at the end of all these arguments, you know, it's finally been admitted now after we left after I wrote a paper um uh critiquing his his teaching that that is actually what you just said is what [00:32:47] he meant. He meant that in the same way that the the twel apostles the twel apostles were basically give teaching the revelation of Christ fulfilling the old testament scriptures, right? And in his world, they knew those things via revelation of Holy Spirit revelation. One of the things I critiqued about that was to say, but well actually Jesus taught them that during those whatever it was 40 days or however many days after the resurrection when Jesus gave the awesomest Bible study of all history as he's teaching them, oh this is where you find me and all the passages. Now I'm not saying that the Holy Spirit was [00:33:30] also not giving them revelation. And I'm I'm only saying that they are teaching what Christ taught them. But in his version, no, this is the Holy Spirit giving them understanding the entire time. Every day was like constant revelation of where Jesus was. And what he was trying to say is in a similar way apostles today read the New Testament well and the Old Testament read the the written word and in that they are getting new revelation of what that stuff means just like the 12 had revelation and so they they kind of want to create a new category and I think for somebody with my doctrine based on John [00:34:15] Frame's teaching of the word of God, the written word of God. Um, I'm like, "Oh, you are messing with sufficiency of scripture. You're messing with solo scriptura. This is a very dangerous thing." Now, if you think you do have a new revelation on that, we're always reforming. You simp reformanda, I'm ready. Let's do it. Let's get out the text and let's get in other words we everything can be challenged but we challenge it according to proper hermeneutics and we we challenge it. We do consider tradition. We consider the original languages. We consider all these various things and we tread very very lightly. We don't just jump on the [00:35:00] stage and start making stuff up. You know I just I just read a new quote from Bill Johnson. It's an old quote, but I I I hadn't read it. It I hadn't hit me. Like he said it. He was saying that the Holy Spirit, like sometimes these things make us uncomfortable, you know, like like if you're uncomfortable during the move of the spirit, people start barking and rolling around and making pig oinking noises. If you're uncomfortable, it's it's because basically you have the spirit of Antichrist. I mean, that was that's in um when heaven invades earth. And he he says in there that that's the reason that the Holy Spirit is the comforter [00:35:44] because God knew he would first have to make you uncomfortable. Like that kind of stuff is so cavalier. And I I don't want to get on a big tangent, but if there really was an apostle today, which I tend to not believe that there are, but if there was, they would never do that. You know, they would be more like Clement and Ignatius and Athanasius and Polycarp. They wouldn't be running around going, "Oh, I've got a unique ability to totally give you something brand new that the Apostle Paul didn't understand when he wrote something." They would never do that. they would be the first people ready to grab a sword and defend the proper interpretation of the written [00:36:28] word of God to the death. And I just don't see that with these. So this brings up a question that I've uh heard in in our comment section, which is okay, you've aptly pointed out that there's dangers that are inherent to the N ecclesiology, but aren't you kind of being selective in your outrage? Because the same dangers are present within this senior pastor model where there's one man at the top and there's, you know, maybe there's a board of of of, you know, elders or whatever, but they're subservient to the senior pastor and therefore um the senior pastor can override a board member or those board [00:37:12] members can be yesmen and the same danger is present within that structure. And so uh what is so unique about the N? Yeah, I think that it would be really prudent for us to be extremely fair and in my opinion to say yeah 100% I totally agree with anybody in the comments that are saying why are you picking on N this can happen anywhere 100% I amen it because even in some cessationist models uh a good example is is Bill Gothard uh in the Bill Gothard model which Bill Gothard was huge in cessation churches. I grew up my parents were quite into that stuff. I went to a bill seminar as [00:37:56] a kid in the Southern Baptist church I grew up in and they would say that it was he was cessationist but he clearly would say that his book of institutes and especially when you got into the more um homeschooling curriculums that he created, he actually says that that material was given to him by God. There is actually no functional difference between that and what we're talking about in terms of the Rama word of God. I actually read a book and I can't remember the name of the book right now, but it was called something like um the cult teachings of Bill Gothard or something like that. I can't remember. I saw the two authors on a an Alisa Childers podcast. It was a brilliant [00:38:40] book that really helped me. I read it last year and they have a quote from Bill Gothard when he he um the authors had sat down with him and were going through his teachings and said to him that cannot be true. What you're saying if what you were saying was true. Oh, they were saying that Jesus when he was a kid, remember when Jesus uh was in the temple and his parents couldn't find him and and they finally find him and he says, you know, I'm in my father's house. He actually said that Jesus was sinning because he was being disobedient to to his parents. And it was only when he came back under spiritual authority basically that he was that he is you [00:39:24] know now he was able to to do what he was called to do because he stopped sinning. And so basically these authors said that would change [laughter] that would change everything about the gospel if Jesus is sinning. I'm laughing because uh Jimmy Evans who was formerly uh one of the apostolic quote unquote uh overseers of uh Gateway which you know one of the largest churches in the world uh recently like as of last year or two years ago taught the same thing uh and he didn't say the word sin but he said the teaching was on authority and he said Jesus was out of line. >> He was out of authority and he had to come back into authority. So, he didn't use the word sin, but if you're rejecting God-given authority, I'm [00:40:08] pretty sure that would be a sin. So, it's crazy that these structures are so committed that they'll even use Jesus as the negative model. >> Hey, real quick. If you want to support what we're doing here at the Minor Prophets Podcast, come join our Patreon and you can be treated to videos like this where Rouselon and I are analyzing modern worship music. >> Ah, this isn't fair. I'm just trying to suppress all my cringe right now, bro. I'm I'm I'm like re I'm like I'm I'm I'm doing the cost on what I really want to say. >> You got we got to move on, bro, cuz you're going to get me cancelled. >> Joining the Patreon does a lot to help us continue doing what we're doing. If you want to support us, come and join us and you can check out some of this awesome content that is exclusive on Patreon just for you. Back to the video. [00:40:52] >> That is insane. Uh and and and I'm glad you say that because I should be fair. Bill Gothur did not say the word sin either. So, I'm sorry. I I over I I said that too far. The implication would be though, I mean, when your entire teaching is about, >> right, >> if you're not under spiritual authority, then then the devil's going to hurt you and give you cancer and make your wife barren and etc., sin is the implication. And so, these guys confronted Bill Gothard and they said, "So, which one is it? Is your teaching wrong?" And they said that he thought about it for a second and he said, "My teaching is not wrong." And also Jesus did not sin. And he actually says in the book these things were given to him through Rama [00:41:35] through a Rama word. But he's cessationist. So my point is yes this can happen in any model where you've got one guy at the top in a pyramidal structure. Now I think that some of the difference is is that and I hope I'm saying that clear enough. I agree with any of you commentators that say this isn't just happening in NAR. 1,000% yes. What I think can be a little different is that head pastors don't often they don't teach that they don't teach that they are the head of a pyramid and they don't teach that they have secret knowledge and that that that their people in their churches can't understand the Bible on their own. Now some of them may and I would say run [00:42:19] from those people. That is just like N. It's the same thing. Anytime you have somebody saying that, you should run. Um, but I will say one of the couple things I think that make NAR unique. Number one is that a lot of these uh NAR is just the the reach of it is just so massive because of the music. If there was no Bethl music, I don't think anybody would be listening to Bill Johnson teachings going, "Oh my gosh, the revelation these guys have in the Bible is just absolutely unbelievable." Um, and I don't mean that as rude as it sounds, but he's not a good Bible teacher. And I think he would even say, "I'm not saying [00:43:00] I'm good. I'm I have revelation." I don't think most people would believe that him and Chris Valaton are actually speaking with with a lot of biblical Rama revelation. That's just my opinion. Um, it's the music that is changing the game and getting getting worldwide perspective. Another thing is that most of these head pastors that we're talking about, um, the ones that could be authoritative and and could be a danger, lead pastors, they're also not covering 30 churches or like Chayon covering 25,000 churches or whatever it may be. In other words, there's a difference of scope that I do think that matters. The last thing I want to say about it is that I think the N and and [00:43:44] restorationist models, charismatic churches in general, I'm going to say something that I think is very good about them, but also something that could be a little bit dangerous. People can take it how they will. What I think is great about the charismatic section of the church is that they care about young people. I think it is a fair criticism to say I'm not sure uh I go to I go to two I have two different churches because I live in two different places and one of them is a Presbyterian church and thank God um the church that my Presbyterian church loves young people. It's part of the PCA but when I look at a lot of the other PCA churches I'm not sure they really care about young people or they're not showing it. [00:44:28] Um, do I think that there are charismatic churches that truly believe we could change the earth if we can get the gospel to young people? They do believe that. And I amen it. I I think it's great. Sometimes the cessationist model is always saying it's a really bad thing that NAR is coming after young people. I think it's a really good thing they're coming after young people. They they want them to come to allight worship services. I love all night worship services. They wanted to come to prayer meetings where you fast and pray. Love it. Like I I'm totally down with that stuff. I think it's a thing that the charismatic church has done really well. It's why I loved it. The dangerous side of it is that they do tend to come after young people. um which I have [00:45:15] already said I like, but young people are not yet biblically trained and they're not yet, let's just say they're very susceptible to a lot of of things that I think are false. And what I do not appreciate about these movements is that they make a lot of incredible, very confident claims. And I will just give you one. when you're 15 and one of these guys comes up there and is like, "Hey, the traditional church is boring and this and that and the other, but we're where the energy is because we're doing worship like the early church did worship." And you believe it. You believe that charismatic churches are actually worshiping like the New [00:45:57] Testament church. And you think, why are all these churches not worshiping like the New Testament church? And then you get older and you read some church history and you find out that's just not true. There's nothing that could be farther from the truth. I haven't read anywhere in church history um in the early church where people were dancing and shouting and rolling on the ground. It's just not something I read. Now, by the way, I love charismatic worship. I still love charismatic worship. I can scream and jump with the best of them because I get excited about the cross and the victory that Christ has won for me. I'm not even saying I think it's bad. I'm only saying as an example. They say these things with such confidence [00:46:40] that you think the rest of the church is just not doing it like the we're restoring the early model of the church. And I'm just in my research, I just don't think those things are true. So because of all of that, because they these kids are told that they're the only ones that care about revival and and and if you want revival, you have to worship like this. you have to pray like this, you have to fast like this. And it becomes a transactional revivalism. I don't like that. I I I I commend them that they're going after the young people because all churches should be, but some of that stuff I think plays into it more than the lead pastor [00:47:24] churches tend to. Maybe I'm wrong. >> I think that's a very fair and and accurate assessment. And you hit something there at the end that I think John Mark and I both wanted to explore as we kind of shift out of the big picture N ecclesiology stuff, but you mentioned, you know, the the all night prayer meetings and you mentioned there at the end the the kind of danger of revivalism and and one of the things that so many people uh I'll just make it personal for myself and then you can share some of some of uh uh your journey, your wife's journey, but coming out of being uh a part of IHOP KC for quite a long while. I never lived in Kansas City. I was never uh on staff. I was never but my wife lived there for [00:48:08] three years. Went through three years of IHOPU and you were taught this is how you pray and this is what worship looks like. And even right, you start to join those specific experiences and models to the presence of God such that without those things present, God God isn't present. God's gone. He's left me, right? Because I I no longer have those things. And so you did share some with Alisa, but I'd love for you to share a little bit more for for people who are coming out of those kinds of movements and they're now sitting on the couch going, I have no clue how to pray. I don't even want to pray. I don't have words. I don't have emotions. I'm shut [00:48:52] off. How did you guys process that? Um, again, not what's the authoritative teaching that all people, just your own journey of how you began to sort of come back to a place of prayer and connection with God outside of the models, you know, that you had learned before. >> I love how you set that up, David, and I appreciate you saying it and and I will reiterate it. I am not telling anybody to pray the way I'm praying. Um, I'm not telling you not to be charismatic. That is not my business. But I do want to speak to anybody that has come out of one of these authoritarian things, especially if it was more hypercharismatic. I just want you to know if you feel that [00:49:36] you don't know how to pray and oh, I'm going to get emotional saying this. Well, I I didn't expect that. But these things hit, don't they? that hits you when you're not expecting it. If you feel like you I literally don't I don't know how to even talk to Jesus anymore because I am so very I am so very confused. I want you to know that you are not alone. Doesn't mean that you're not saved. It it absolutely does not mean that you're not saved. It does not mean that you have a bad heart. [00:50:19] It just means that you are in a place of neediness and dependence upon the Savior. And there is no better place to be than in neediness and dependence on the Savior because he will show up in a mighty power. It might take a while. It might take longer than you want it to take. If you're feeling that way, I just want you to know I've been a Christian since I was 5 years old. And I'm old now. That's been a long time. I know the Bible pretty well. Um, I'm a novice theologian. I've done ministry for years. If people know my music, you might have seen me on stage in front of 80,000 people opening up for a a heavy metal band that is Antichrist. And I [00:51:05] will say, Jesus is my Lord and my Savior. I am I am passionate about the gospel. And I got to a place where I did not know how to pray. And it might happen to you, too. You're not alone. Good news is this. For me personally, I I am so thankful for it now. I'm on the back side of it. So, I'm telling you, there's light at the end of the tunnel. This is what I did. [snorts] Um I always feel the need to apologize to people when I get emotional. It's it's kind of embarrassing, but sorry, but that's just life. Um I started doing two things at once. I started studying charismaticism deeply, so I understood it. And I started studying the church fathers deeply because I needed to find [00:51:50] my I needed to find the roots of my faith. And I am just going to tell you my story. I just found that the way that car that these books were telling me to pray and to and and to understand my positionality was so inconsistent with the church fathers that I I began to be at I was more than shocked. I was panicking. I was freaking out. I it it really freaked me out. And so what I did was I just started going back to ancient prayers. I just said, "God, I want to go back to the purity of what it means to be a [00:52:33] follower of Jesus. I want to kind of jettison some of this other stuff. I I I feel like these things are inconsistent. And I'm going to get rid of it in my life and I'm going to stop reading it. I'm going to stop studying it. I'm not going to listen to anybody in that world for now. Not because I hate them. not cuz I'm they're not saved. It's not good for me. And I started praying ancient prayers. And I'm just here to tell you guys, you can do whatever you want to do your own research, please. But when I read the ancient prayers of St. Chasum and and or Athanasius, and you go through these these list of these these early fathers, I do not see people commanding God to do [00:53:17] stuff. I don't see people commanding revival. I don't see commanding healing. Um I don't see I don't see any of this stuff. All that I see are humble men understanding that they are not worthy of Christ. They are not worthy of grace. A but they have it for free and they celebrate it and they they ask God to grant them forgiveness to grant me. One of my favorite ones is God grant that I may rejoice in your mercy. Having God's mercy is something that we ask him to grant us. You don't command it. Repentance is a gift from God. Faith is [00:54:02] a gift from God. You're not commanding it by faith to happen. It's a gift. And if God doesn't give it, then you ain't gonna have it. You know, so what I started doing for me was just going, God, I want to emulate I want to emulate the humility of the saints gone by. And for about three months, what I did is I stopped praying anything of my own conscience. I just stopped praying any of that. And I did something that us Protestants are loathed to do, which was all I did was pray other people's prayers from ancient fathers. Uh some of the Catholic, some of the Catholic uh prayers, some of the Eastern [00:54:45] Orthodox prayers. I've become a very close friend to Eastern Orthodoxy in the last two years. Some of the Puritan prayers, which which I already would pray anyway, um from the Valley of Vision. And I just said, "All right, that's how I'm going to pray." And uh one of the things that I did because I was so angry is if I didn't pray all day long, I I would become a very very fleshy evil person. I'm just being honest with you guys. And I would I would set my alarm and I would every hour my alarm would go off and I would get up my six or seven maybe eight ancient prayers and I would pray those prayers. Um, one of the best ones is uh a God is grant that I may grant [00:55:30] that I may see my own sin and not condemn my brother. Grant that I may see my own sin. That is a gift from God that you see your own sin. That's the work of the Holy Spirit in your life. And I would pray that every hour and uh take the you know take away this anger, take away my anxiety and replace it with your Holy Spirit. That's just a great Catholic prayer, isn't it? Um Jesus, I surrender everything, you know, take care of everything. And all of a sudden, I began finding that Jesus was meeting me in the humility of my dependence upon God. And so maybe for some of you out [00:56:13] there that feel that you don't know how to pray, you're not alone. Maybe God wants to rework your understanding of your positionality and your neediness and dependence. And also how that changed me is I I do pray my own thoughts again now. And my prayer life, I will tell you, is better than it's ever been because I'm not I'm not trying to ren the heavens. And I I'm not trying to like h it's not about that. It's just about I say things that I mean to the Lord and I think about the things I say before I say them. And I'm just finding in that such a humility and the joy of the Lord. That's the end of my spiel. [00:56:57] >> That is excellent. I uh spoke just yesterday with some people who are really wrestling with what does prayer look like on the other side of this because uh as David pointed out the way that we've been taught to pray that which goes just to the to the root of our relationship with God and it's not even that all of it is all of it is bad or all of it is wrong or anything like that. It's just that it's so intimately tied to an ecclesiology and a culture that we no longer are a part of and and it's like what how do I even you know uh even the music that people will uh listen to as part of like worship and that being a very important part of your [00:57:42] devotional life especially as a charismatic worship is sort of like the the the only sacrament of of Pentecostal and you know it's like um you know singing uh and so you're like I can't even sing that song anymore cuz I just because of the emotional baggage. It's not even that the song is bad. I'm I was just laughing because um for people who came out of IHOP, one of the great solutions for many people who are coming out of some of these kind of movements is hey just learn to pray the scriptures. And it's so funny because people that came out of IHOP are like, "The one thing I'm not going to do is pray the Bible." >> Because that's all that's all that happened. >> And what's funny is that, you know, [00:58:25] coming out of that uh you know, you when I heard someone singing the Bible, [snorts] >> I would get kind of like triggered because that's what you do in the prayer room all day at IHOP is you sing straight from the Bible. And then I started listening, you know, to like ancient chants, you know, from like Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox services and they're just chanting the Psalms and I was like, "Hey, I like that." And I realized just like you said, John Mark, it it was the cultural baggage that was triggering me, not the actual essence of what was happening. And so that's why seeking those things out in is because some people John uh you know in some of these Protestant spaces will say John Cooper prays Roman Catholic prayers you know and it's funny [00:59:08] because you know you just talked about being a Berean. The idea that that we can't learn to discern the beauty of the prayers of the church from different backgrounds you know is going right back to some of the hyperontrolling theology I think that people a lot of people are trying to get out of. you're you're on the other side of experiencing some incredible pain due to betrayal. And I I don't I don't think I even maybe want to get into some of that on on this episode necessarily. Uh suffice it to say, there was some intense betrayals and deception and um there's secret doctrines that are being taught and you're being lied to and gas lit about it. Some of the stuff that got covered up. The question obviously as followers [00:59:53] of Christ is well what about forgiveness and CS Lewis has this quote I'll read it. Everybody says forgiveness is a lovely idea until they have something to forgive as we had in the war. Um but then even to mention the subject is to be greeted with howls of anger and that seems to be true. You have walked through something incredibly painful. all of this betrayal, you're reading the teachings of Jesus and you're met with this stark contrast. How do you process those things? What has been helpful for you to even uh try to embrace this ethic of Jesus? >> Yeah, what a great question. Um [01:00:37] it's um the the I think what I would start was just saying this. I have been very very open about um how much I struggled with anger and I think there has been a mixed reaction but I think the majority of people uh at least have said to me or on the comments have have appreciated that I was so um open and just so raw letting people know I have been so angry that I want to put my fist through a wall, you know. um like I I I feel like maybe I'm not saved. I I dealt with so much anger and it took me into a place where I I really had a mental breakdown, struggled with depression, um and became somebody [01:01:22] I did not want to become, but I was I was fighting it, but it just I felt like I was never winning. So, I've been very raw and honest about that. The reason I thought that was important, well, there's many reasons. One of those things is because I know that other people have felt like this and I want people to know you're not alone. Uh people that that know who I am or have followed me, they know that I'm very passionate about what I believe. I don't shrink back from saying what I believe and sometimes that makes it makes some folks mad because I'm just all out there. And I have I have been very vocal about victory in Christ, about victory over sin, about living the strong Christian life, being strong and [01:02:04] courageous, moving glory to glory. And I want people to know that like, oh, also I struggle with anger so much that [clears throat] I sometimes am afraid I'm going to physically attack somebody that cuts me off on the side of the road. Um, and just so people know, that is my deep dark secret. Um, it's it's it's not really a secret, but in other words, the thing that that you struggle with that always comes back when you're not doing good. So, for some people, it's alcohol or, drugs, or lust, or whatever it may be. Mine is anger. I've written a lot of songs about it. I wrote a song. Our biggest song is called Monster. That's what Monster is about. It's about being so angry that I I I I'm like, "Oh my gosh, am I even saved?" and [01:02:48] my kids are going to see me like this. I want people to know that you're not alone if you felt that anger. I also felt it was important to say because it is an expression of genuine humility that this is how all Christians should be. We we confess our sins. I'm not saying you have to go on a public podcast to confess, but in other words, we don't think more highly of oursel than we ought. There's no reason to act like all I do is move from glory to glory to glory when you're struggling with some pet addiction or pet sin that you're crying out to God. Let's be honest so that people understand that you can struggle and still come to Christ and that there is hope in that struggle. That was important when it comes to forgiveness. The biggest thing [01:03:31] for me um I will say a lot of my Eastern Orthodox reading um really influenced me in a beautiful way. Now understand I am Protestant. I am reformed. I am not going to become Eastern Orthodox or Catholic that I know of. Um but as I began to read some of this stuff um because they have a lot of writing that connects with the early church. And so I just found that as I was studying church history, it just becomes natural that you're you're reading a lot of these converging influences. And as I'm reading it, the humility of also let me say I also have a [01:04:15] relationship with an Eastern Orthodox priest who has become a dear friend of mine. And the humility of this man, I'm just telling you, I he may be one of the most Christlike people I've ever met. Deep, deep humility. And when I I only filled him in one time on what I had gone through because we're not we weren't that close. And he immediately jumped to how I need to forgive them. He didn't immediately jump to like how evil these people are. they're not following the true uh the true faith because they're outside of the true church which the Eastern Orthodox Church. He just jumped to the brokenness of men that can cause [01:04:58] them to become authoritative and how I need to pray for these men to come back to to understanding that leadership is actually servant-hearted. It really blew me away when I read the ancient fathers and I'm praying their prayers. Hey, by the way, this is a tip. This might help somebody. Google ancient prayers for bitterness, ancient prayers against anger, uh, or deliverance from anger, deliverance from bitterness, deliverance from abuse, and and they'll give you a, uh, or Grock or whoever will give you ancient prayers and, and in those pray, it was through praying every hour, [laughter] God, help me not to see my own sin and [01:05:42] not condemn my brother. And I think what it does is it teaches you to understand in the word like even the words of the apostle Paul. I I'm the chief of sinners here. You know I yeah I'm very upset at my my former apostle for treating me like this. I think his teaching is false. I think the way they are doing it is false. I think they are hurting lots of people and abusing lots of people. He's not a greater sinner than me. I've probably abused people and don't know. And so it shifts it shifts your positionality to understanding how lowly that you are. And and to me this is also and this is also John the Baptist I just need to decrease that I want him to increase and I decrease I am not I am not worthy to untie his sandals. That's [01:06:27] what John the Baptist says right? >> And that was the positionality for me. I can say I forgave these men a honestly a long time ago. I do not walk around any longer mad at them. I don't think of any sort of vengeance against them. Um in fact, I'll share this because we have a lot of former charismatics or charis charismatics trying to understand who they are [clears throat] watching this program. I mean, even recently, I've had dreams where I am hanging out with my former apostle um as friends, and I'm not mad at him. And in my dream, I'm aware of all that's happened, but all of [01:07:10] a sudden, we're hanging out and we're friends. And I'm not saying that that is a prophetic dream. I'm I don't know what that is, but it might just not be anything more than my subconscious um showing up into my dreams confirming that I don't go to bed mad at this guy. >> Does that make sense? I don't I don't go to bed hoping that bad things happen to him. And um I go to bed with nothing but love and forgiveness in my heart. >> Just so thankful >> Yeah. >> that God knows my name. so thankful that I am wrapped in the righteousness of Jesus Christ and when the father looks at me he sees his son and I am an accepted adopted heir of the throne of Christ that is too good to believe [01:07:54] that's what I how I go to bed and it shows up in my subconscious as a dream >> being friends with somebody that I feel abuse me very deeply >> man that's that's just powerful man I know that that's going to speak to so many people that specific experience and and I just wanted to point something interesting just that I keep noticing as you're talking that I've noticed in myself um you know within the hyperarismatic space what we might call you know hyperarism and hyper grace um have kind of become super intertwined right and so Chris Valatin has been one of the main voices for years that has taught you know because of our identity in Christ uh [01:08:38] we're not sinners you know and and I want to not go so far that I reject. >> Oh man, >> of course the New Testament speaks of Christians as saints, right? As God's holy ones, as uh you know, the one who knew no sin became sin that we might become the righteousness of God in Christ. But I do think one of the great losses and one of the great motivating factors actually of some of the hubris and pride is a loss of our consciousness of sin. And I know people, some people will really hate that I say that. They'll really disagree with that. They'll be like, "No, no, no. You know, we just covered this guy, Justin Paul Abraham, and I won't get into that, but one of the things you'll hear every time those [01:09:20] guys show up is we've got to what God's dealing with in this hour is sin consciousness." And what he wants us to do is no longer be sin conscious. Some of them will even say, "We're no longer eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." Basically, like there is no there is no sin. We don't even know what sin is anymore. And I just I I think about, you know, I'm a huge huge fan of of Anglican liturgy. I have a lot of Anglican friends. And, you know, there's a prayer that we pray before the Lord's Supper uh that Thomas Craner wrote called the prayer of humble access. And you know, it's this consciousness of I'm about to partake in the body and blood of Christ. I'm about to uh enter into a remembrance of what he's done for me. And the prayer that we pray in that moment, the prayer of [01:10:03] humble access um is we don't presume to come to this your table, merciful Lord, trusting in our own righteousness, but in your own abundant and great mercies. We are not worthy so much as to gather up the crumbs under your table. But you're the same Lord whose character is always to have mercy. And the prayer then is grant us therefore gracious Lord so to eat the flesh of your son Jesus Christ and drink his blood that our sinful bodies may be made clean by his body and our souls washed through his most precious blood that we may ever more dwell in him and he and us. And I just say that the first time I prayed that prayer when I was in an Anglican service I all I heard was was Chris Valatin's voice and I taught this. I'm [01:10:47] okay I'm a pastor. I taught this. I taught people you're not a sinner. Don't be conscious of your sin. Live from the righteous, you know, and I taught it from a good motive and a good heart and a good place. But now I've realized that so much of my ability to forgive, whether people agree with it or not, is based in a knowledge of my own sinfulness. And even your own awareness of your besetting sins, you know, like I realize now it's like I have besetting sins. I have sinful patterns that emerge over and over again in certain scenarios. And I think recognizing those and actually becoming more conscious and again when you read the early church writers, right, and you you think about the Jesus prayer, right? Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner. I [01:11:30] think I just wanted to say it's more of a comment than a question. I just wanted to say I I so appreciate that perspective that you're sharing. And I would encourage other people kind of coming out of charismatic backgrounds where maybe the hyper grace stuff or the overemphasis on righteousness and your identity in Christ has kind of clouded your ability to see your own sinfulness and your own unworthiness before the Lord. I would just encourage people maybe to rethink that. And one of the best ways to do that I would say is reading some of the early church fathers, some of the prayers of the early church. um some of the prayers of the reformation, man. Read the Puritans, you know, and I think the charismatic movement could use a rediscovery of that. So, when I first wrote the song Monster that we were talking about, I [01:12:14] remember my apostle um again, who's one of my best friends, and I did not mind this, by the way, saying to me like, "I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with these lyrics because you're you're you're acting like you're some kind of horrible sinner." And we had this long discussion. And that was when I realized how deep this this uh overrealized esqueological viewpoint that we are only saints. I I didn't I didn't really understand that that that was part that was in the pie. And I just thought that was a unique thing to my apostle until a couple of years ago when I started going, "Oh, this is this is actually a part of of I guess some version of [01:12:57] Pentecostal theology which I didn't understand." But yeah, re reformed theology teaches that we are simultaneously sinners and saints. We are saints uh because we're justified. We are not enemies of God. Uh we are friends of God because of the imputed righteousness of Christ. So we are justified and so therefore we are saints and thank God for that. But we're still sinners. And I just think there's an interesting, we won't get into this right now, but like there's a lot of compounding errors that all derive in my opinion from this overrealized esqueological position that that create all these things. And it's why it's so difficult [01:13:41] to talk about this with people who are still in apostolic movements or hypercharismatic movements because every issue you talk about has an underlying compounding error. Does that make sense? And and it's all it's like like you talk about apostles, they're like, "Well, we have to have apostles because we'll never reach full maturity." And I'm like, okay, but that comes from another error that believes that the church will actually become fully mature and fully unified without spot and blemish before the return of Christ. And that ain't going to happen. You know, that that's just like a super latter rain type thing that is seeped into the the the mainstream of [01:14:26] Christianity now. So everything is like that. And I I I just think it might be one of the reasons, this is conjecture, but I think it might be one of the reasons that there is so much sin in charismatic leadership. And I know that somebody's going to say a comment and say there's sin in every denomination. Absolutely true. Steve Lawson from the reform camp. We could go down a list of people who have sinned greatly. But I've even heard people like Dr. Michael Brown admit it's way worse than the charismatic movement. The the scandals from leadership, the sex scandals, especially the SA stuff, the stealing of money, it's so much worse. [01:15:11] And and it's always been um I've been saying this for 20 years, so this isn't new. I've been saying if we are the Holy Spirit people, the people that truly respect the Holy Spirit more than all those cessationists, then we would have far less sin in our leadership than the cessationist church. If there was really a Holy Spirit sanctification going on, I just wonder if part of this comes from this arrogance that we are not sinners. Because if you look at legal, if you look at legalism, churches that are highly legalistic, like fundamentalist, Baptist, and what you end up finding is a lot of sin, it it's this weird [01:15:56] spiritual thing that I can't explain. But the more legalistic you are, it seems like the more rampant sin that people are just breaking God's law constantly. um as opposed to I think you know other churches that I think have a a more understanding of grace. I think similarly this this refusal to admit that we are sinners creates this positionality that we're just I never sinned. What is that that uh Todd White always talks about how he hasn't sinned in 13 years. That's some anybody I don't care who it is that says I haven't I've never looked at a woman with lust. I'm like, "Bro, bro, you're not a human being and I [01:16:39] don't want you near my wife." That's all I'm I don't know anything about him. I'm not I'm saying anybody that says that that triggers me to say, "I don't want you near my kids. Hide your wife. Hide your kids. Hide your husband, too." Because anybody that claims they haven't looked at a person, a woman with less than 13 years, I'm going to end it there. There is no way. And so I think that this of what you're saying, this overrealized esqueological sense, it just compounds these things. I'd much rather be with I'd much rather see a minister go up there and say, "I'm a worse sinner than you are. Now, let's talk about grace." I I would I would rather that person. >> David, you mentioned that these are things that you taught. These are things [01:17:24] I taught, too. And that's kind of the thing about coming out of something is that you recognize [snorts] your participation in that thing. Uh CS Lewis talks about how can I love my neighbor and uh still recognize that my neighbor is not always nice. And one of the ways that he does that is recognize there is somebody that I love that I also recognize is not always nice. And it's myself. And you know, I uh recognize I'm not always nice. That maybe provides a good frame for this passage of 1 John chapter 2 that I wanted to bring to bear and get your comment on John. Uh this is verses 9-11. [01:18:07] Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness. Whoever loves his brother abides in the light and in him there is no cause for stumbling. But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes. One of the traps that I feel myself when I'm when I you deal with liars and false prophets and people who are scamming people, sexually abusing people in the name of Christ, it elicits this sense of anger, righteous indignation where you are like this is wrong. People [01:18:52] are being hurt. People are being wounded. But if you're not careful, that anger that is good and right because it comes from love can become hatred. Especially when you're dealing with issues where these are doctrines that are believed by sincere people that are leading towards abusive treatment, but that person's still a brother. And in your case, it was your own like your best friend. How do you grab a hold of this truth from the scriptures about loving your brother and not allow something that could be righteous indignation to become hatred that then begins to blind you so that you don't actually see where you're going? Loving someone or not hating them even um and [01:19:37] forgiving them does not mean you have to have a friendship and that you trust them and that you want them back into your life. I think a really harmful thing that has happened is this idea of forgiveness that means well you forgive your abuser and so jump back into relationship. And you see that in a lot of a lot of of these church models even again not to go off on on Bethl again but you guys have covered this on your show just like uh this book that I was reading what's it called? Culture of honor or unpunishable which is another book. I mean, their whole model is basically, I'm gonna say this in a way that they would say is unfair, but let's just cut to the chase and I'll say it the way [01:20:20] that I interpret it. It doesn't matter if you've been abused. Forgive them and come back under their leadership. That's basically what they're saying. Hurry up and forgive. Be like Jesus. Come back in the church. Don't tell people about it or you've got a problem and God's not going to bless you. And they don't deal with the actual abuse that's happened. And so, ironically, when we hear about uh the Apostle John talk about loving people, you know, the Bible gives us a definition of what it means to love people. And to love people is is summed up as we know, but it's a summation of the law and the prophets. And so, we can go to the Old Testament and then of course the words of Jesus and we put these things together and we understand how the law of God and then [01:21:03] of course interpreted through the Jesus's words. We see that is what it means to love someone. And so am I going to love this person who has abused me? Yes, I am. But if this is church leadership, they are not loving you if they don't actually deal with repentance. They are actually treating you in a very hateful way that the law of God says no, that is not okay. Um and then we see it in the New Testament um in first Timothy and etc about how they are supposed to be held accountable. And so now what you have if they're not if the elders or the board or however the ecclesiology works at the church if they are not holding this person accountable who has abused sheep [01:21:48] now it's not just one person abusing you it's an entire structure it's the entire system that is set up to fall on top of you. So I think the first thing is to say to people it doesn't mean you have to say well I got to forgive them and stay because that's what Jesus would have me do. I would say no at this point shalom or peace however you that sort of understanding of the community of God living in peace together that is broken and that cannot be put back together again until both parties reconcile. Repent where is necessary or come to an understanding and you can have a mutual conversation that results in a in an in an outcome where we all feel safe and I [01:22:32] maybe feel safe sounds very therapeutic but where we all feel shalom a biblical understanding of holding each other accountable according to the word of God. So do not feel this pressure to be in relationship with your abuser. But there is a godly pressure [laughter] to get to the place where you can let go of wrath against that person. And I would say that wrath against that person. That is a demonic thing and that is why I suffered so much. I knew it was a demonic. I don't mean I was demonized, but I I I I'm doing something that the devil loves when I am full of wrath [01:23:17] towards this person. And I don't want to do something the devil loves. And I'm a I'm a believer. I am a saint. And I don't want to act like this Lord. And so I would just say to people, this is not something you have to work up in your own energy. You don't have to just be like, I I command for you. Don't don't don't command don't command. Don't declare. Ask God to grant you forgiveness towards someone. Ask God to take away the bitterness. Um take away all the bitterness in my heart and replace it with your Holy Spirit. I'm telling you, if you pray that every hour, it's going to be very hard for you to be wrathful during the hour. It's it [01:24:01] it may take a while, but eventually you will just let go of it because you'll just focus on how much of a sinner that you are. So, let go of the wrath. It ain't easy. Um, but don't feel that that pressure that's like and we now we have to have a relationship or I'm not truly walking with God. No, some of these people are are not safe to let back into your life because they are they are unrepentant abusers and that means they're going to do it again and it's going to put you back in the position again. Uh the last thing I'll say about this is I still believe we should be eager for reconciliation. If I understand the Bible, I think that that God's heart is always [01:24:46] for godly reconciliation. Um, I think we should be eager for that. And in my situation, I tried for reconciliation literally for two years. I wrote multiple papers. I sent multiple I got elders involved. I even said, "Look, I I said to my elders, uh, my my father-in-law, who is an elder and the apostle, if you think I am from the devil or I'm acting out of an impulse from the evil one, I would have you tell me, I will be willing to have that conversation and you explain to me so that I can repent. But you can't just you can't lob the [01:25:30] hand grenade and never meet with me and tell me why." and I tried for reconciliation for two years. So, I do think the heart of God is reconciliation. But last thing I'll say, I would not go on a one-on-one meeting with this guy because I think he's manipulative and I think he's using bad tactics and we are I told him because recently, well, it doesn't matter. I won't say, but he sent me a personal message just one- on-one and I said, "Hey, I am not comfortable having this conversation via email one-on-one." I would like you to get your elders involved so everybody sees the communication because we can't now reverse course and go to the beginning [01:26:12] of Matthew 18. We're already to the third step and beyond. We're already to the end of 1 Timothy 1. We're at the end of this game and I'm going to bring somebody with me that has my back because I don't trust you guys. So my heart is reconciliation but I'm trying to be wise as well. Maybe that helps somebody listening. You have spoken in pretty harsh terms about deconstruction and and church hurt and now are on the other side of having experienced some of this yourself. Do you look back at some of the things that you've said um and view those things differently now or uh do you stand by some of the strong strong statements you've made in the past? [01:26:54] >> Yeah, I you know I I think I would probably say it like this. Um and I'm not trying to nuance too much. I'm just trying to be as honest and as clear as I could possibly be so people really hear my heart in this. One of the reasons I I [clears throat] also excuse me wanted to be as blunt about my hurt and my anger and how much I'm I I was I was barely hanging on to faith was to to do with some of those statements. I want people to know that um I know how you feel and and I have now been through a similar thing and I think that that's an important thing to acknowledge because I've always had a a very big heart for people. Um [01:27:39] and so here's my nuanced answer. It's really important for me to say to anybody that is is deconstruction deconstructing or or even left the faith completely or asking questions or been hurt. I would just say um I am and have always been more than happy to have that conversation with you. nothing you say would be offensive to me or I would never be rude to you about what you're going through. I would always be compassionate. And um and I feel like that even more now. I feel like if I could go back uh well, actually, let me [01:28:22] keep giving my answers so people know where I'm at because I don't want it to sound like I'm saying something that I'm not. So, let me just be dead honest. I stand 100% behind the content of what I was trying to say in those years. I would not back down an inch from that. Um because I I mean it with all my heart. If I could go back and say some things differently, I absolutely would. So, I'm not trying to be too nuance. I'm trying to be honest. I'm trying to say, "Oh, I would say some things differently." Because when I was talking about deconstruction at first, I was not talking about people who were who were hurting because they had been [01:29:05] abused at church or treated poorly and now we're having the kind of things we were talking about. I honestly did not know that was even like a big a thing. And so sometimes my words would be very broad. But I I have a tendency to say things in very extreme language where I'm like, "They all do this. They all do this." And I don't say it circumspectly. And so I sometimes would give I don't want to say lip service because that sounds like I didn't mean it, but I would give a very short caveat of hey, if you're if you're deconstructing or doubting your faith, me and you are not at war with each other. I'm not talking to you. I'm talking about people who are actively trying to get Christians to [01:29:51] leave the faith and then I would go off on deconstruction. I I think what I would do now is give a very large caveat to where people know that if you're deconstructing for whatever reason it may be, I have uber compassion for you and me and you are not at war. And my I want you to stay in the faith and I would walk it through with you if I personally knew you or if you had a conversation. I would never be rude to you about that. Nor would I have been when I said those words. So, it's a really long answer, but what I said then I I feel like some of the outlets that covered it did not really cover it in some ways accurately to be honest. Um because when I was given those spiel, [01:30:36] what I would say was there are people that used to be leaders in the in the Christian faith that have now deconstructed and left and they spend their time online trying to inject skepticism into other Christians. They are looking for people that have been hurt to come and like pick them off and get them out of the faith. I am at war with those people. Um, I think what they're doing is extremely evil. And do I love them? Yes, I love them. But what they're doing I have a major problem with and I still do. So when I was on uh this tour called Winter Jam is when that stuff really blew up because that's what I was I was saying this I'm at war with deconstruction. [01:31:18] And there was a girl on the tour that asked to have a conversation with me and I said, "Oh, of course." and we had a wonderful conversation in which she shared with me that she is deconstructing. She was uh sexually abused or essay. I don't know if you need to edit that. Said um very abusively by her pastor. And she said, "I'm going to be honest. It's making me wonder if any of this is real. And I just want like are you talking to me? Are you at war with me?" And I started tearing up. I I was like, "Of course I'm not talking to you. How How could I be? you know, you're someone that Jesus has compassion on and you can always talk to [01:32:01] me. And that is when I realized that there was this group of people. And I tried changing my language to make it known. And I even started doing that on my tour on that tour. So the majority of the concerts I would say, listen, if you are doubting your faith, God's not mad at you. If you are [clears throat] questioning whether the Bible is real, God is not mad at you. Um, and I am not talking to you, but there is a movement of people online, formerly Christian leaders, who are doing everything they can do to confuse you and to get you out of the faith. So, um, that's a really long answer, but let me just end it with this. God has used this for sure to make [01:32:44] me far more compassionate, far more gracious. And if somebody that I know is struggling with an addiction, um I'm like, I want you to come to me. If you're struggling with, um I don't know if I believe the Bible's real anymore. Come to me. We're going to be friends no matter what. And so I I have adjusted my language in public about those things. Um but I also want to make it clear that I am not backing down about what I see as the danger of progressive Christianity and post-modernism in the church. and what I would call literary deconstruction, like very liberal readings of scripture. I think that stuff is confusing. And I still have a [01:33:27] major I'm not going to lie, I've got a major beef with uh some of these online people who are doing everything they can do to confuse young Christians, especially when they've been hurt by the church. So, I just think we need to do everything we can do to tell those people that are hurt, we got your back. I don't want you to leave the faith. I understand why you feel the way you feel, but we don't want you to leave the faith, and we want you to come back home. So, uh, so I'm not backing down an inch on what I intended to say, but I have adjusted the way that I say it to become what I hope is a much more compassionate person and to where my posture seems non-judgmental. I've got [01:34:11] no judgment against anyone. Christ died for sinners like me. And uh I hope that I hope I said all that clear enough. >> Amen. >> I really appreciate what you're saying. Um and the clarifications on the deconstruction stuff. I think this going to be helpful for a lot of people. And you know, I do find it ironic, you know, uh Joshua Harris being the big example, right, of somebody who was at an abusive, you know, Christian church, caused a lot of people to deconstruct, then deconstructed himself, and now is monetizing his own deconstruction and selling classes on how to deconstruct. You know, I think that's what you're like when I hear you, that's what I hear you talking about is those kind of guys where it's like some of them are even turning this into the next opportunity uh to to grift and to monetize people's [01:34:56] hurt and pain. Um sometimes pain that they helped cause. Um and so I I really appreciate that. I appreciate you sharing your story. Um I think that is one of the most liberating things for people is just to hear that they're not alone. just to hear that um maybe the gaslighting they've experienced from leaders is not the truth that they don't have to believe um that you know all of this is false and made up and you know there's no nobody thinks apostles are actually this and nobody believes the N is this and um so I personally have just been really encouraged by everything that you've been sharing and uh I know John Mark and myself are are cheering [01:35:39] you guys on in your in your next season. You know, I just remember uh listening to your wife talk about the difficulty of like getting back in church and uh I think there's quite a few people that are in that in that boat. Um and so hopefully I'm just praying for you guys as you as you find your way back into into the church and into uh you know a local local church. Um and yeah, man, just just grateful. Thank you so much for for spending time with us. >> Oh, that's so cool. Thank thanks David and u uh and John Mark for having me. I really appreciate it and I I really appreciate what you just said about you were talking about Joshua Harrison. You said that's who you who you hear that I was talking about. That's 100% it. And there's there's there's a list [01:36:22] of people that was always who I was talking to because I felt that that was entering into the um I would say the mainstream of of Christianity. There was a lot of there was a lot of of bleed over and I was just wanting to say hey that don't belong here. I probably just would end with this. Um uh one last thing to say love my charismatic friends. Um not telling you what you should believe. You should search the scriptures and you should find that out on your own. I am not a Bible teacher. Um uh and and so for people to understand where I am at, I am probably in in a Wayne Grudum line. I'm a cautious continuationist, but I was in charismatic churches for 35 years. I am [01:37:06] not against you. Um, here's how I would leave it for people that go, "Well, how do I reform?" and this, that, that and the other. Maybe people that are still charismatics that are going, "Well, I just feel like you're just so down on us." I would just give this last bit of encouragement. If you may think your doctrine is right, that is up to you. I would say this. If the charismatic church is to reform um and if the charismatic doctrine is correct, meaning some version of um not that other churches aren't saved, but charismatics have a a special [01:37:49] deposit of the spirit or something of that nature. um that that gives us power and maybe authority and we are living more like in the life of the spirit than other people are. If that is true, I would just say this, the charismatic church should actually be the holiest section of the church because you have more power than everybody else, right? Isn't that the number one thing that the Holy Spirit is doing in the life of the Christian is sanctifying us. It's ethical. That's the work of the spirit right now as as believers. The the initi the primary job, isn't it? You should be the most discerning, shouldn't we? Because the Holy Spirit is [01:38:32] speaking to us. He is leading us. And if we have a special deposit of the Holy Spirit, we should be more discerning. We should be the first section of the church to be calling out false apostles and false teachers and and false prophets because we have a special deposit of the spirit. I could keep going down that list. We should be praying more biblically than other people. And I guess I just want what I would challenge my charismatic friends. Even if you believe the doctrine, I would just say that's how you need to reform. And it is a good question. Why is there so much rampant sin in the leadership of the charismatic church? Yes, it exists [01:39:14] everywhere, but I think everybody pretty much agrees it's on steroids in the charismatic church. Why um are charismatics the last people to call out false apostles and false teachers? They don't like it. Why is that? I would just challenge you as you're studying the scriptures and if if you want to reform the charismatic church, ask those kinds of questions and be willing to embrace it. If uh an apostle should be the person who cares most about doctrine because that's what the bishops the bishops were kind of the the successors of the the apostles. They were looked at as that sort of, you know, local apostolic type figure in a certain way. [01:39:58] And the main thing they cared about was doctrine, unity of the faith, unity of that was all about holding correct understanding of who Jesus is, who God is, how we are saved, and the traditions of the faith, etc. I would challenge you. Go back, study those things, come to your conclusions, and if you want to reform the charismatic church, don't be so upset when people like Minor Prophets or Remnant Radio or whoever it may be or even Justin Peters comes on and says true things that we need to reform. One of the things Justin Peter says all the time that he is dead right about is he goes, "I think cessationists have a much [01:40:44] higher view of the Holy Spirit than charismatics because and he lists off all these things because we don't put up with with heresy. We don't put up with false doctrine. We don't put up with people that are doing essay. We we kick them out of leadership and we're not looking to hurry up and put them back in." And I think that's a pretty fair point. So, I would encourage you in that. Again, I'm not telling you what to believe. And if you are struggling in the way that I was struggling, I would just suggest take a break from listening to people that are teaching anything new. Only read books of people that have been dead for a couple hundred years. That'll safeguard you for a while. John, thank you so much uh for coming on and speaking to these issues and sharing [01:41:28] with us your process and uh not just from an intellectual side, but from a spiritual and emotional side as well. I think it's really helpful uh for all of us to just be able to be open as in as much as we can. And so, man, God bless you. And for those of you who are watching, I just want to say thanks so much for watching. If you want to see some of the comments that we've made about uh Alisa Childers's interview with John, um that video will be linked right over here. You can click on that and see what we had to say about that. It was me and Josh Lewis from the Remnant Radio. And so, may the Lord bless you guys. We'll see you in the next episode., John Cooper Answers Questions About NAR Abuse, John Mark Baker, David Fish, John Cooper, 01m423vwa27prv6pc3pqty1wmp.