LoopConf and Handling Client Feedback  ## Metadata - Author: [[Highrise Digital]] - Full Title: LoopConf and Handling Client Feedback - Category: #articles - Document Note: --- tags: - #WordPress - #LoopConf - #WPCafe - #ClientFeedback - #Revisions - #Design - #ProjectScope - #Pricing - #Conference - #OpenSource - #Education - #SEO - #Accessibility - #DEIB Author: Keith Devon & Mark Wilkinson Source: YouTube (WP Café / Highrise Digital) Reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbckmcFs-nQ date created: 2025-09-28 18:45 --- # Title: 🧩 LoopConf Takeaways & Handling Client Design Feedback — Boundaries, Revisions, and Realities ## Table of Contents: - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#-notes) - [📖 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical validity](#-logical-validity) - [🔍 DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🔍 SEO Evaluation](#-seo-evaluation) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### References: Include a list of sources consulted and cited in the article. ## 📝 Summary: WP Café episode 129 features Keith and Mark reflecting on LoopConf London (an independent, single-track WordPress conference) and a candid deep dive into managing client design feedback. Key themes include: the value of curated single-track events ([06:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbckmcFs-nQ&t=379)), possible reasons for lower attendance (pricing, optimism, marketing hooks) ([08:14–10:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbckmcFs-nQ&t=494)), and practical boundaries around revisions for productized implementations and bespoke design work ([19:19–24:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbckmcFs-nQ&t=1159), [27:35–30:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbckmcFs-nQ&t=1655)). The throughline: set expectations early, avoid offering “bad options,” and choose clarity over endless pixel-pushing. ## 📖 Main Content: The hosts compare conference formats, praising LoopConf’s single-track curation (shared experience, less FOMO) while acknowledging attendance and cost headwinds. They then turn to client services: implementing a job board to “match the brand” can slide into endless tweaks if scope is fuzzy. They probe where to draw the line—when matching inconsistent legacy styles harms UX, when to charge for changes, and how to handle “arbitrary” pixel nudges that fight the grid. A second project shows how presenting both a weak “what you asked for” mock and a stronger alternative can backfire—clients often pick the lesser option. Lessons: define “brand match” precisely, cap ambiguity rather than “rounds,” and present only defendable solutions. ### 🗒️ Notes - **🎙️ Kick-off & context** - Show intro & housekeeping ([00:03–01:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbckmcFs-nQ&t=3)). - Host week check-in; slow/bitty week, mic fix ([01:35–02:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbckmcFs-nQ&t=95)). - Aim to learn from a frustrating design-feedback week ([02:31–03:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbckmcFs-nQ&t=151)). - **🗓️ LoopConf overview** - What is LoopConf? Independent, single-day, single-track WordPress event in London ([04:05–06:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbckmcFs-nQ&t=245)). - Past editions & Brian Richards/WP Sessions mention ([04:21–05:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbckmcFs-nQ&t=261)). - Venue & structure: one talk room + sponsor/food space ([05:26–06:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbckmcFs-nQ&t=326)). - **🧭 Single-track value** - Shared experience → easier hallway conversations; no FOMO ([06:19–06:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbckmcFs-nQ&t=379)). - Talks exceeded expectations despite lukewarm initial hook ([06:49–07:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbckmcFs-nQ&t=409)). - **🧑‍🏫 Highlights (examples)** - Ghost founder story; “25 lessons in 25 years”; design feedback talk; indie-web “own your domain”; security & AI bits ([06:59–08:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbckmcFs-nQ&t=419)). - **🧮 Attendance & pricing debate** - “Half full” feel (~50–60 attendees, subjective) ([08:14–08:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbckmcFs-nQ&t=494)). - Macro pessimism dampening spend; speaker hooks and price point questioned ([09:05–10:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbckmcFs-nQ&t=545)). - Ticket ≈ £300 + travel/hotel → near £1,000 for some; lunch logistics/cost trade-offs ([12:02–12:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbckmcFs-nQ&t=722)). - **🎯 Curated vs community formats** - Curation (no blind CFP) → higher average talk quality; still measured on criticism tone ([13:54–15:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbckmcFs-nQ&t=834)). - **🤝 Client feedback reality (project 1)** - Productized implementation (“match brand” job board) devolving into endless “just one more” requests ([18:47–20:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbckmcFs-nQ&t=1127)). - Arbitrary pixel moves that break the grid ([19:19–19:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbckmcFs-nQ&t=1159)). - Tension: match inconsistent site vs. fix inconsistencies ([21:56–22:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbckmcFs-nQ&t=1316)). - Boundaries: when to start charging; avoiding pure “rounds” framing ([22:45–24:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbckmcFs-nQ&t=1365)). - **🎨 Client feedback reality (project 2)** - Bespoke design steered toward weaker direction despite stronger alternative ([27:35–28:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbckmcFs-nQ&t=1655)). - Lesson: don’t present bad options—clients may choose them ([29:21–30:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbckmcFs-nQ&t=1761)). - **🧾 Communication quality** - Garbled requests; difficulty clarifying scope via email ([26:51–27:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbckmcFs-nQ&t=1611)). - **🏁 Wrap** - Rant over; subscribe/like CTA ([30:34–31:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbckmcFs-nQ&t=1834)). ## 📖 References: - WP Café Ep. 129 — *LoopConf and handling client feedback*: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbckmcFs-nQ - Highrise Digital / WP Café site: https://wpcafe.show/ (for series context) - Ghost (mentioned): https://ghost.org/ (context for founder talk) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase: 1) **On “brand match” scope creep** ([18:47–20:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbckmcFs-nQ&t=1127)): *Original idea*: After aligning styles to the site, “one last thing” requests keep arriving—some conflict with the layout grid. *Paraphrase*: We styled the embedded feature to reflect the existing brand, but the change requests have become open-ended, including tweaks that contradict the grid system and erode consistency. 2) **On choice architecture for clients** ([29:21–30:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbckmcFs-nQ&t=1761)): *Original idea*: Presenting a weaker “what you asked for” and a stronger alternative led the client to select the weaker one. *Paraphrase*: When both a compromised and a principled design were shown side-by-side, the client selected the compromise—proof that we should only present solutions we can endorse. ## 📰 Newsletter: **Headline:** LoopConf Lessons, Client Feedback Zen, and Building Without Endless Rounds **Blurb:** This week we unpack LoopConf London—an indie, single-track WordPress day that traded FOMO for focus—and the eternal art of handling client design feedback. TL;DR: define “brand match” the moment you scope it, avoid “bad option” comps (they *will* be picked), and trade “rounds” for a clear change-request flow. If budgets are tight, consider events that favor curated tracks and hallway time over multi-track overload. **Useful links:** - 🎥 WP Café Ep. 129 recap: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbckmcFs-nQ - 📚 Learn WordPress: https://learn.wordpress.org/ - 🔧 Plugin directory (vet your stack): https://wordpress.org/plugins/ - 🤝 Make WordPress (contribute): https://make.wordpress.org/ Shipping responsibly beats pixel-pushing forever—set the rails, then ride. See you next issue! ## ✅ Action Items: **Reusable alignment prompt (for your GoDaddy DevRel + OSS/WordPress + aspiring OSPO d - Summary: Follow us: X / https://twitter.com/highrisedigital | https://twitter.com/wpcafeshow Linkedin / https://www.linkedin.com/company/highrisedigital/ Website: https://highrise.digital/ | https://wpcafe.show Checkout our products: JobRelay: https://jobrelay.io Integrate your WordPress website with popular job posting and distribution software. RecPress: https://recpress.com Better WordPress job board, done for you. Highrise Digital is a 2 person WordPress development team based in the UK. They primarily work with Recruitment Agencies to build integrations with WordPress. They also build WordPress recruitment websites as well as sites for companies in other selected sectors. On this channel we provide WordPress development and business advice for solo and small WordPress teams. We help you to level up your development and business skills with quick tips, live coding and chats with other industry professionals. There's an overwhelming amount of information out there and lots of people telling you the 'best' way to do things. At Highrise Digital, we strip away the guilt and show you practical, pragmatic ways that developers can improve. This is how WE do things, warts and all! - URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbckmcFs-nQ Hello and welcome to episode number 129 of WP Cafe, the show where we share the real unfiltered experience of running a WordPress business. I'm Keith Deon and I'm joined by my co-host Mark Wilkinson. We're from High-Rise Digital. We're a tiny agency building WordPress websites and products. Uh today we're going to be talking got a couple of things really. uh going to be talking about loop conf which I went to yesterday which is a independent WordPress conference that was in London and so I'll talk a little bit about my experience of that and we're also going to be talking about design feedback including kind of things like how many rounds of revisions uh do you give to clients uh so before we dive into all that just the the usual that you can follow us on XWP cafe show you can find us on blue sky you can find us on the web at wpcafe.show. We're also here on YouTube, anywhere you get your podcasts. Um, if you do enjoy the show, it would mean a lot to us if you hit the like button or subscribed. Um, let's feed the algorithm as best we can. Uh, see if we can get a few more people watching and listening. And if you are here live, uh, watching along, please do um, say hello in the in the comments on YouTube. It's always nice to uh see who's with us and to get your questions and your comments as we go. But as usual, let's check in with Mark. Uh how's your week been, Mark? >> All right. Before I do, I think you sound a bit tiny. I don't know if you've got the right mic setting. So, I'll just let you have a look at that. Um my week's been really slow and um short because I've had a couple of days where I was fing members to hospital and back and so forth. So, it wasn't I was out of work a bit. So, I've not had a great deal of meaty stuff to do this week. Got the usual support stuff and faffing around with answering people's queries. I say fing around obviously really important, but um but yeah, other than that, it's been uh it's been a bit of a bitty week, shall we say? Bit of a bitty week. >> Fair enough. It often is really, isn't it? When we don't have a big chunky project to work on and like you say, you've been you've been out a bit. So, yeah. >> That sounds better by the way. >> Yeah. I thought Yeah, it was it was the wrong mic. I was I was on my default a MacBook mic for some reason. >> All right. See? Cool. >> Good. What about you anyway? How's your week? I know you had a conference yesterday. >> Um we we will go on to Yeah, it's been Oh god, it's been a frustrating week actually uh which we will talk about as well. um because of design feedback that I've been getting on a couple of different projects and >> yeah, it's been it's been it's been frustrating. There's been a few few good bits, especially yesterday at the conference. Uh but yeah, work-wise it's been one of those ones that frustrating, but I am actually determined to try to learn some kind of lesson from the frustrations. So hopefully as we're chatting today, we might come up with something useful or maybe someone watching along might come up with something uh useful for us. So we'll see. We'll see. >> Can help us out. Who knows? >> Yeah. So what do we tackle first, do you reckon? Should I should I talk a little? >> I'll go with the conference I think yesterday. >> A little bit about yesterday. >> So obviously I didn't go. It was um well we we we chatted potentially about going to Word Camp London. Word Camp London uh WordPress London meetup which had been moved to the Wednesday night so that attendance because obviously then a vis attend loop comp on the Thursday um I just felt like it wasn't going to be worth it to be honest coming down um >> for all that time it would it would have cost us a lot of money as well >> it does cost >> um I didn't decide to to go but you did I mean you're a lot closer so it it made sense so how was the conference what f first of all what was it if for those that might be listening that don't really know what Loop Conf is. And secondly, you know, how did you what did you do? How did you go? >> Loop Conf is an independent WordPress conference, one day single track. Um, it has happened before, many years ago apparently. I don't know how many of them there have been, but this wasn't the first. I think there's been one in Las Vegas uh before. Um, so it's the brainchild of uh Brian Richards. Oh my god, have I completely forgotten his name? Brian Richards. I think that's right. Um, the the man behind WP Sessions uh which is like a cured list of WordPress tutorials and general WordPressy videos. He's super nice guy. Uh an incredible MC. Um an absolute natural. Um so he was it was brought back to life because of a kind of partnership and opportunity came up uh for humanmade to kind of get involved and bring it here I guess to the UK. I think they already had some venue space and stuff lined up for another event that maybe didn't happen. There's something like that. There's something there was some kind of opportunistic uh >> y >> uh scenario um that kind of led to led to happening. So yeah, it was uh it was a single day. It was the Bish Bishop's Gate Institute in London. Um so near near Liverpool Street, right in the middle of London. Lovely lovely building and space. >> Sounds familiar that venue. Have we had something else there? Was there like a WordPress meet up there at some point? I don't know. Just the name I feel like I've been or >> I don't know if there was a work amp there once. >> Not sure. But anyway, >> you might be right. I'm not sure. It felt a little bit familiar, >> right? >> Yeah. Just >> Yeah. Um, so yeah, it was it was nice. Uh, yes, single track like basic it was basically all in one room. There was a room for like the talks, the sponsors and then there was a room for the coffee and lunch and snacks. Yeah. And stuff. So, it's like Yeah. two two spaces you could be in. I actually liked I I like a single track format. um less decision making, less kind of FOMO of what's going on on the other track, like are you missing out on something good? And also like everyone there has had this shared experience and you know that everyone's seen that talk. So you can talk to anybody about any of the talks and you know that they were there. >> Yeah. >> Um I quite like that. Um and it's like a lot less to organize and stuff like there's I I don't really see the need for like loads and loads of tracks for things. Anyway, um talks were good. Um the talks were actually the main reason I wasn't going to go initially. Um because I I looked down the list and I thought none of them jumped out as something that yes, I I need to know about this. I want to learn more about that thing. Um but they were all great in their own way. They were all like really interesting. Um you know, there was stuff on uh the founder of Ghost. I I like I loved his story. Uh John, >> that was really interesting. Um we had Ross Win doing like 25 lessons from 25 years. That was really really good fun. >> Um >> any Ross is good. >> Yeah. Like really kind of heartwarming and just not like it was just really nice. Uh good talk from Andy Bell right at the end who's like a CSSY guy, but he was mainly talking about design feedback like and that kind of thing. So that was interesting that yeah that was very relevant. Um Lady Anna talking about indie web and making sure that you have your own home on the web, you know, blogging more and all that kind of stuff on your own kind of domain. Uh not just putting out content on other platforms all the time. That was kind of interesting. >> Some interesting security stuff, some interesting stuff with AI. >> Um I'm missing like I'm missing loads. How many talks were there? There were eight I think. Um and yeah, like I said, they were all interesting. So, what was the what were the numbers? Like how many how many was there? How many was there? >> I don't know. I'm really bad at I'm really bad at estimating things like that. Not that many. >> A lot of empty seats. Uh there, you know, I wouldn't be surprised if there were 50 people there. >> 660 maybe. >> I could be wrong. I I could be under I could be undercooking that. There wasn't a lot. There wasn't a lot. It felt like felt like a bigish meetup rather than like a full on >> That's interesting. I I expected >> I expected there to be hundreds that I don't know that's just me like a conference seems like it should be hundreds of people matters. >> Pretty sure the organizers were hoping that there were going to be you know significantly more. I I I got the sense that it was about half full >> um or half half empty depending which way. I wonder why that was done then. Any any thoughts? Any >> Well, yeah, I've got lots of thoughts. I don't know if I've got insights, but uh I think generally there's not lots of optimism >> in the WordPress space. There's not lots of optimism in the world in general at the minute. And I I do I do think that affects people's >> growth mindset in terms of like, yeah, I want to go out and learn. I don't mind spending money because I'm going to make more money. But as soon as you're getting as soon as you're in defensive mode, which I think a lot of businesses are, you're starting to think, well, why should I spend money on that? I'm not just going to do it for the sake of it. Whereas, if you're a bit more like the future's going to be great, let's go. You know, I think I really do think that makes a massive difference. But I also think, and I don't know this because I don't know what the marketing efforts were like. I think the price was slightly too high. I do think potentially the talk speakers and content didn't have that real hook. Well, it didn't hook they didn't hook me. They were great on the day, but they didn't make me initially want to pay and attend. Um, and I think I could I can see that that was probably the case for a lot of developers. There weren't many talks there where you think if I go to this talk, I will be better at X. >> Yeah. What >> um was lunch provided? >> Yes. >> Yeah. Cuz I do wonder because for me one of the biggest reasons for me not attending was it was the cost. I mean it would have been lovely to go down and see people that I haven't seen for months and and chat to them >> regardless of the talks. You know, I'm sure the talks would have enhanced it and got more from it. >> But the cost was for me. So I think the tickets were 300. >> Yeah. And something. Yeah. trains, accommodation, you know, spends that you you you know, so you're getting towards a thousand quid probably by the time you've actually done the journey and you're thinking, is is that really worth it from a business perspective? And that's a really difficult decision to make, >> but I do think that the cost is and I do I do wonder because I I think back to the very early word camp that I was semi-involved with in organizing and we I don't did we have lunch? I don't remember organizing the the lunches and I think the early word camps you didn't. I just wonder why conferences always put like a lunch on. Why don't they just do the conference and then you just do your lunch, you know, your own lunch. I don't know because that would cut the cost down. Surely that would cut the cost down a lot. Or is it because the venues won't let you have the venue without paying for the food? I don't know. >> Possibly some of that. And pos possibly just it is nice to all kind of be in the same space and eat together and >> Yeah, that's true. >> Uh I don't know. and and it's yeah I it's a really good question. I I don't I don't know. I like for me lunch being provided was a was a good thing. Uh >> yeah, I don't think it's a bad thing. I'm just thinking if cost is a is a problem for people going like you've said in the current business climate people are struggling to justify as I was in my head >> then surely trying to make that cost less is an option. Maybe >> I I think it would probably it would obviously depend on how much extra they're charging per head for lunch. >> Yeah. >> So like if they're char if it was like 20 quid ahead to do the catering or 30 40 quid ahead to do the catering Yeah. maybe take that out and save on the cost. If it was 10 10 then >> we won't know that will >> you're going to you've got your money's worth. And like going out to lunch would have cost you a whole bunch. And I know there's the time of that as well like where do you go? Does everyone, you know, fit in the nearest pub? Are you going to get served in time? Are you going to get back in time for the talks after lunch? Like, there's all that kind of logistical stuff that actually would be quite difficult. >> Um, >> yeah, but it was I thoroughly enjoyed it. Like, I met some really nice people. Um, hung out with lots of old WordPress friends and some new friends and yeah, it was really, really great. And every time I do something like that, I want to do more of it. >> Yeah. >> But the cost thing does come into play when when you're actually having to like press the button and be like, "Yeah, there's 300 quid going out of our account plus the hotel, plus the trains, plus the whatever." Uh yeah, it's it becomes harder. >> I don't plus evening meal, plus drinks, plus >> you know, it gets expensive. >> There were some freelancers there as like fair play. You know, you've spent a fair amount of money, but like most people are there on behalf of their businesses >> to some extent, you know, like large agencies and hosting companies and product companies and >> yeah, still still it still cost them, I think, but uh it does. I did it did it >> did it feel different to a word camp obviously because it sounds as though it was very WordPress focused which is what a word camp is but it just didn't have the word camp brand or or was it completely different or >> was similar or >> it felt different in the sense that it was better >> right good >> and I mean better I think there's a few ways that I liked it I think the quality of speakers was higher because they can just be chosen. >> Yes. >> And there doesn't have to be like this kind of blind submission um process. So you can just be like, you know, Brian can just be like, I want that speaker, that speaker, that speaker, and that speaker because they're all really good speakers, really good at their topic, and you know, that's that's what he he can curate that experience. The the multitrack thing or like the single track thing felt different. uh the criticism of word of like it wasn't it wasn't heavy on the criticism considering it wasn't a WordPress official event. >> Yeah. >> Uh I was probably expecting it to be slightly heavier on the kind of criticism of recent directions. So there was a talk by Ryan McHugh about the fair project. you know, he had he had a huge opportunity because he was >> yeah, >> fairly badly wronged in my point of from my point of view, but uh he had a huge opportunity to really uh put the knife in or whatever the expression is and he didn't, you know, he chose he chose to be very class classy about it. Um >> well, yeah, I don't know. >> Do you know if the speakers were paid? >> I don't know. >> I don't know. Not not just interested to see how it differs from from >> I would expect they probably were. >> I would think so at the price point of the tickets but >> exactly I think they probably were >> and and as well because there was a lot of not a lot there was a few people there from outside the WordPress space talking to a fairly small audience and I just kind of wonder why would they have done that for free. >> Yeah. So >> to be fair though, I mean you say I say paid I I don't know what the payment would be for a speaker. I have literally no idea but they would have a cost wouldn't they of going just like I had a cost of going as well. So probably payment would be offset by the cost they had to make to go there. So eventually mean means >> yeah maybe >> going for free I suppose. I don't I don't know. Obviously they're not going for free because they're contributing massively to the conference. So >> I think most of the speakers were UK based. >> Yeah. John Nolan is based in the US, so I don't know if they paid for him to come over. Um, >> yeah, I really enjoyed it. Like all the same old people. It was like going to a WordPress London meetup. >> Yeah, I wish I could on a on a slightly bigger scale. It was really good. That makes sense. But I wish if they they do it up in like Manchester or I'd definitely go obviously, but it's just a bit too far to it's I think for me coming down to London, it's not the coming down to London. It's the fact that the last train back for me I think it's like half 7 at night to get you in up here to sort of like 9 half 9 and then if you wait till after that you you're talking really well I think you've got to wait till the morning after. So it's I can't really get there and back in a day almost when there's still and and whole point of the no the whole point a big part of the conference is you want to go to the after and chat and meet up with people and that would seem silly not to then go to that just to go down for the day at the conference and then come home. >> Yeah. I mean I was actually really flagging during the day like I was so tired for some reason. >> I think too much coffee and sugar earlier on. Uh they had lots of nice vegan uh sweet things. So I was like going crazy on all the muffins and cookies and stuff and then all the all the coffee. So I was flagging in the afternoon. I was thinking I could just you know I could just go home. I was like no don't don't go home, you know, just suck it up for like you'll get you'll get a second wind. Get get yourself down to the bar. And it was such a it was lush like right down on the rivers. Beautiful sunset. nice >> shard. Like the shard in the background and just like >> Yeah. really really swanky and all all the booze and food was free. So it was just Yeah. I'm glad I went. It was good fun. >> It was good fun. >> Yeah. >> Good. Good. >> Yeah. >> Shall we move on? Shall we move on? >> Yeah. >> Um >> so the next one on the list is rounds of revisions. And this is kind of like um tied in with sort of like our rec press product and uh one of the sort of experiences this week. Do you want to explain >> it was your interaction and your sort of part of this really not me? >> As I explain this I'm going to sound like >> I don't know a bit of a knob really but like essentially essentially I've been working on there's two things but we'll start with the wreck press build. So, I'm I'm installing a job board for a client, and part of our service is to style that up to match their current website. Uh, which I've done. Um, but now I'm just getting like endless emails saying, "Can you just one last thing? Can you just do this? Can you just do that? Can you just and some of some of the like couple of things some of the communication is truly appalling which we can we can talk about >> and some of the things they're asking me to do are kind of ridiculous as well you know in terms of like >> I've lined I've lined stuff up to match a grid and then they're just like can you move that thing up and left a bit into that space I'm like what just like an arbitrary amount yep just just like just up into that I'm like, "Okay, what the hell's going on?" So, they're they're really really picky about fine details, but then also ask me to make ridiculous design decisions that don't make any sense at all. So, it's quite frustrating uh at the moment. I just feel like I'm just a pixel pusher. Uh I think what's frustrating is that for me is that like part of our service is to say we will brand this to match your website which >> is an important pull factor for people to come and buy the product. I think because it's like you're not just getting something out the box, you are getting a branded solution. >> Yeah. >> And I think that the question comes as to where does that where does the line get drawn of what that actually means? Um, >> yeah. >> And I I I wonder how other people would would approach answering those sort of questions, like you said, like pulling things out of a grid and just moving something three pixels to the left >> because they want it to look that way. I don't I part of me just thinks no. Like >> it's done the way it's done because that's the right way to do it. >> Um, but maybe that's what our job should be. I mean, it's their website. It's their >> Yeah. Oh, that that's c can you can you ever be like that in a in a client services kind of I'm trying to think of other like examples, you know, of like a I don't know, a gardener or something cutting pruning something a certain way and you'd be like, "No, can you prune it this way?" And they're like, "No, >> I'm doing it my way." It's like, "No, it's my it's my garden. Like, do what I tell you to do." And I get it. I get it. But like the frustration for me is the super pickiness about some of the stuff that I've been doing where I look around the rest of the website and some of the requests they've made of me and think how can you be so picky with what I've done when everything else is just inconsistent and >> you know they're saying things like all all the spacing is is really consistent on the website so make make sure it matches like what you do matches. And then I'd literally have sent them a screenshot of like, no, the spacing is not consistent in the rest of the website. None of the spacing is the same. >> Um, or there was something there. But yeah, >> so that begs the question, is it our job as part of our product to match the inconsistency of their website because that is matching the brand or is it our our job to say, well, actually, because that's inconsistent, we're going to do it right. Yeah, >> but then that might look wrong because >> it's not consistent with the rest of the site. That's >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I think ultimately we've talked into the fact that if the client wants it, the client almost has to have it because that's kind of what we say we deliver. I think what's interesting >> within reason. Yeah. >> With Yeah. How how long does that go on for? you know, like you said, keep sending emails, you know, last thing and then two days later, oh, just one more thing or just one more and then do we have to somehow put a finite on that and say, you know, I don't know whether it's the numbers of rounds of revisions or you send I don't know any ideas on how we could improve that process so that they understand that this can't go on forever. >> Yeah. >> I don't know the answer to that. >> No, and I don't I don't either. And like the I think rounds of revisions I I I I don't like that concept. >> No. >> Um and I think I think I really do have to just swallow my pride and and just be like it's my job just to kind of work on this till it's right. As long I think as long as they're not asking me to redo things. If they >> if they've said can we have X and then they say actually I don't like the look of that. I want Y. Maybe maybe let that slide a couple of times and then be like, "No, I've changed I've changed that now." That's the way it is. You're going to have to pay if you keep telling me to change things, I'm going to have to start charging. I mean, I think that's that I think that would be fair. Um, but it's just it's fr it's frustrating. It's not something I enjoy whenever. >> It's interesting, is it? because we're actually we're approaching this from the position that the customer is asking us to do perhaps a little bit more than we expect them or want them to be. >> Yeah. >> But actually we're approaching this in that what we really want to do is say look this is outside of what we've agreed this is going to cost you more. We haven't actually gone back and said hey do you know what a couple of hundred quid and we could probably just get all these things done for you. And they might just say yeah no problem. But if I was them, I'd be like, "No, I you know I I signed up for you to make it match the website." Uh, and you will do that. >> Yeah. But the argument could come back, couldn't it? Well, we have >> Yeah, I did. Well, that's true. I did. I did match it. >> So, >> yeah. Yeah. No, >> I think the other thing to think about here is that, you know, if we do, you know, 15 of these a year, probably only one or two are going to be like this. the rest are going to be fine. So perhaps you just say just let it be. You know, it's got to, you know, handle it type thing. >> Yeah. >> Uh which usually happens. >> By the way, the the button that they asked me to put in the middle of nowhere has now been removed by them and they've replaced it with another button which is in a more sensible place, which is interesting that they didn't ask me to do it. >> Yeah, maybe they've got the impression that, you know, bad enough. >> They might have been like, "Yeah, we can't ask can't ask Keith to change that again. We've already, you know, >> we've already tested him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Really tricky. I don't I don't like putting hard limits on design work because I've been at the other side of that. We we've hired a a garden designer recently because we we've got to do a lot of work in our garden and we just needed a bit of help and >> y >> there are two two rounds of revisions and we did a round and then the changes some of the changes that they put in I didn't like and then I've only got one more round and I'm like oh crap like what do I ask for on this last round of revisions because what if I don't like the end results I'm just kind of stuck with it then or I have to start paying more. It's just it doesn't leave a really nice feeling. Like I know I'm really frustrated personally and I think maybe a lot of this is just me learning to deal with this. Um and like you say there's lots of ways that I can justify it to myself. Like most clients aren't like this. Most projects are really fast. Um just take the rough with the smooth and actually they're nice guys and actually they're just trying to make their website look good, you know. >> Exactly. I think that it's important to say actually like there's been no part of this communication that's been, you know, um, badly offensive or angry or anything like that. It's been anything like it's been perfectly pleasant and everything's gone really well. It's just, >> you know, it's been a lot of requests and things. And I think the other slight frustration was some of the communication was a little bit, it felt like it was a bit rushed on their part. >> My goodness. >> And really hard to understand. And it's almost like just read that back because it doesn't really make sense. Yeah, this has been a theme of my week. So, it's this client and one other like the communication has just been so terrible, you know. Um, garbled sentences that just make absolutely no sense when you when you read them back. Um, and then when I ask for clarification, you kind of don't really get it. You get another garbled sentence that doesn't make it. And I'm just like, guys, like this does not make this is not I'm not reading English here. Yeah. Yeah. >> I I actually put one of the sentences or paragraphs or whatever it was in the chat GBT and said, "Do you understand what I'm trying to say?" And I basically said, "No, not really." >> Amazing. You've you've actually got a chat fe. >> Yeah. >> Usually it goes, "Sure, no problem. I can trust." >> Yeah. Well, I think it was just agreeing with me as it always does. Do you know what I mean? It's like, "Yeah, you're right. This is really hard to understand. >> You're amazing." >> Yeah. Good catch. You know, whatever it says. Um, but yeah, it's been it's been difficult. And I with the other client actually, I've been doing more original design based work rather than just like styling something that already exists. And that's also been very frustrating because I feel like the client is just pushing me down a worse and worse design route. And I've really tried hard to like justify why I think things other approaches might be better. And I even though there's they haven't asked for it, I've been like providing alternatives. I'm like, well, we're kind of currently going down this route, but what about this idea that you haven't asked for that looks 10 times better? And they're just like, no, I like the original one and by the way, can you also center all the text or can you move this random thing over here? Or, oh yeah, I forgot to tell you we have to add a button and it has it's just really not enjoying like design this week. It's just really very frustrating. Um, >> what you said all you can do is advise and consult and ultimately I guess it's it's their >> Yeah, >> it's their baby in it. They've got to do what they want to do. So, you've got to put >> I did say to you earlier like next time they come and say we need to design a module for such and such, what do what do I do? Like >> a do I do it or not? And B, if I do do it, how do I do it differently? So, I don't feel like this, you know? >> I don't know. Yeah, >> because I don't like question, I guess. >> Yeah, I don't like this. Like, I I I really haven't been enjoying >> this work like in in this way. Um, >> and again, very nice clients, >> just trying to do the best, you know, for the you know, they're trying to do their best. They're being very polite and enthusiastic and you know um but it's just I I I just see I see a design going sideways and uh I I haven't been able to guide it um into something better. I think I was talking to a friend earlier and I was like I was telling him like I presented these two options. One of them is like terrible. It's what they've asked for and one of them is really good and what I think they should go for and they obviously chose the terrible one. And I just thought in my head, just just never provide them with a terrible option. I think I think Nick said that. He's like, don't don't give clients a bad option because they will choose it. >> Don't send it over. Just say, yeah, this is what Yeah. Um because that's where we're at now. They're like they're kind of fixed on this idea that they saw that I just really don't like, but then it's what they asked for. They asked me to make those changes. So, >> yeah. >> Tricky. Tricky. >> Yeah. Really, really tricky. Should we wrap it up? >> Yeah, I think that's enough enough ranting for today. Uh, but it's been uh Yeah, good. Thanks everybody for letting me uh get all that off my chest. Um, we will be back next week, I think, unless there's something I haven't checked the calendar, but I'm sure we'll be back next week for another show. So, if you want to catch us again, make sure you subscribe uh either here on YouTube or if you're listening on the on a podcast, make sure you're subscribed on your podcast player. Before you go, if you can also just drop us a little like if you've made it to the end of the show. Surely surely we're worth a like. Uh if you can do that, that would be that would be great. Um yeah, and see you next time. >> See you then. Bye-bye. >> Bye., LoopConf and Handling Client Feedback, Highrise Digital, 01k69766311rpv6qfcqv3hnhb6.