Management Fundamentals With Kelly Vaughn  ## Metadata - Author: [[Certified Fresh Events]] - Full Title: Management Fundamentals With Kelly Vaughn - Category: #articles - Document Note: --- tags: - #Management - #Leadership - #OpenSource Author: Kelly Vaughn Source: [Management Fundamentals with Kelly Vaughn](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J0Icvl-u88) Reference: Transcript with timestamps from the YouTube video date created: {{date:2025-03-01}} {{time:15:00}} --- # Title: Management Fundamentals with Kelly Vaughn – Leadership, Branding, and Culture in Tech ## 📑 Table of Contents: - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#-notes) - [📖 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🔍 DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🔍 SEO Evaluation](#-seo-evaluation) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### References: - [Management Fundamentals with Kelly Vaughn Transcript (YouTube)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J0Icvl-u88) ## 📝 Summary: Kelly Vaughn discusses key management fundamentals with a humorous, candid tone. The conversation covers topics such as the importance of personal branding, unconventional networking, the challenges in competitive job markets, and the impact of social media on professional reputation. Kelly also shares insights from her diverse background—including early coding experiences, freelancing, agency leadership, and transitions to management roles—while touching on the dynamics of political expression in the workplace and creative business ideas that blend culture with technology. ## 📖 Main Content: Kelly’s transcript unfolds as a dynamic conversation that blends personal anecdotes with practical management advice. The discussion navigates through several themes: - **Introduction & Setting the Stage** - [0:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J0Icvl-u88&t=4): Quick microphone check and informal greetings. - [0:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J0Icvl-u88&t=23): Introduction of the episode and its unique blend of "dev and fermentation"—a playful metaphor linking technical work and creative processes. - **Networking and Job Market Realities** - [1:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J0Icvl-u88&t=62): Brief mention of joining the show and setting a light tone. - [2:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J0Icvl-u88&t=139): Discussion on unconventional networking strategies (e.g., sending drunken LinkedIn requests) reflecting on the challenges faced by developers in the current job market. - **Competitive Pressures and Marketing Cuts** - [06:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J0Icvl-u88&t=382): The conversation shifts to how companies, under economic pressure, tend to cut marketing budgets first, which may hurt long-term brand perception. - **Transitioning to Leadership Roles** - [08:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J0Icvl-u88&t=508): Kelly emphasizes that first-time leaders must continue engaging in core technical tasks (like coding) to maintain credibility and empathy. - **Career Path and Personal Branding** - [12:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J0Icvl-u88&t=765): Kelly recounts her unexpected journey into software engineering and the value of her diverse educational background. - [14:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J0Icvl-u88&t=892): Transition from freelancing to agency leadership, touching on the burnout that comes from juggling multiple roles. - **Social Media and Professional Reputation** - [18:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J0Icvl-u88&t=1139): Discussion on managing one’s social media presence and its influence on career opportunities, emphasizing transparency and authenticity. - [20:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J0Icvl-u88&t=1245): How employee branding and individual online presence reflect back on the company. - **Political Expression and Workplace Dynamics** - [24:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J0Icvl-u88&t=1464): Exploration of how political backgrounds and expressed beliefs can affect career prospects and workplace dynamics. - [26:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J0Icvl-u88&t=1568): Discussion on the benefits of transparency in compensation and fostering open conversations about pay. - **Back Channels and Internal Communication** - [29:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J0Icvl-u88&t=1791): Insights into the double-edged nature of back channel communications in corporate settings. - **Understanding Privilege and Cultural Values in Job Selection** - [31:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J0Icvl-u88&t=1912): Importance of recognizing personal privilege and cultural values when assessing job opportunities. - **Influence of Social Media on Brand Success** - [35:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J0Icvl-u88&t=2130): Discussion on how influencer-led brands may or may not succeed based on the true skill sets behind them. - **Diversity in Entrepreneurship and the Ulta Incubator** - [37:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J0Icvl-u88&t=2251): Highlighting the success of diverse founders, including the first national sugar waxing brand by a Black woman. - **Community Building and Engagement** - [41:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J0Icvl-u88&t=2473): The need for consistent and genuine community engagement; building a support system is a full-time job. - **Navigating Social Media Strategy and Its Trade-offs** - [43:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J0Icvl-u88&t=2585): Discussion on the challenges of maintaining a public profile and the pros and cons of social media engagement. - **Managing Company and Personal Brand Overlap** - [47:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J0Icvl-u88&t=2820): Reflection on the implications of blending personal and company branding. - **Deep Dives into Community Dynamics and Culture** - [48:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J0Icvl-u88&t=2932): Introduction of the Dill Pickle Club as a quirky cultural reference, segueing into creative business ideas. - **Effective Management and Adaptability** - [59:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J0Icvl-u88&t=3561): Final thoughts on the importance of planning, adaptability, and strategic management in building successful teams. ### 🗒️ Notes: - **Introduction & Setup:** - [0:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J0Icvl-u88&t=4): Live introduction with quick mic check. - [0:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J0Icvl-u88&t=23): Opening greetings and playful mention of “dev and fermentation.” - **Networking & Job Market:** - [2:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J0Icvl-u88&t=139): Humorously discusses unconventional networking (drunken LinkedIn requests). - [06:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J0Icvl-u88&t=382): Commentary on marketing cuts in tough economic times. - **Leadership & Transition:** - [08:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J0Icvl-u88&t=508): Advocates for continued technical involvement as a leader. - [12:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J0Icvl-u88&t=765): Personal narrative on starting in coding and shifting career paths. - [14:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J0Icvl-u88&t=892): Transition story from freelancing to agency leadership and eventual burnout. - **Social Media & Branding:** - [18:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J0Icvl-u88&t=1139): Discusses how personal social media presence affects professional opportunities. - [20:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J0Icvl-u88&t=1245): Explores employee branding and the impact of individual online activity on the company. - **Political and Cultural Impacts:** - [24:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J0Icvl-u88&t=1464): Talks about the influence of political history on hiring and workplace dynamics. - [26:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J0Icvl-u88&t=1568): Emphasizes transparency in compensation discussions. - **Communication & Back Channels:** - [29:51](https://www - Document Tags: [[devrel]] [[management]] - Summary: Erin and Brian are joined by Kelly Vaughn, a product and engineering at Spot AI who runs a course titled Management Fundamentals for the Modern Leader, about the skills needed to amplify their influence and drive team performance. - URL: https://www.youtube.com/live/6J0Icvl-u88?si=ZSOIRTZXVdm-RJw4 Oh, and we’re live! I think Aaron hasactually got a functional microphone now.Maybe we’ll see; did it change in the30 seconds between backstage and here?Maybe not, it sounds fine right now. It’smoderately decent. Um, welcome everybody! Thank youfor joining us for another episode ofDev Relish. We are YouTube’s top showthat combines dev and fermentation. Imean, nobody else is really doing it. Noone else! But honestly, I will take it.That’s exactly how you win elections insome countries; you just win out ofone. So if it’s fair in politics, it’sfair in my look too. But that’s a verywide range these days. I mean, I can’tbelieve people haven’t — like the rest ofthe world — hasn’t caught on to the deepconnection between pickles and dev. Rude,but, uh, well thanks everybody forjoining! We’ve got Kelly Vaughn with ustoday. We’re going to betalking about your role at Spot AI.We’re going to be talking about management fundamentals.We’re going to talk about what it takes to be adev. Does a dev have toactually have a dev title? Can you beDevilish and not even be in the dev role. Um, yeah, all those fun things should be great conversation. Welcome,welcome, Kelly. Thanks for having me. Ifyou didn't notice in the 30 seconds Iwas back, I actually put my headline inthere, so I'm not a mysterious Kelly Vaughn. You know which Kelly Vaughn Iam, yeah? I mean, like how many Kelly Vaughnsare there on the internet? Because, um,actually, there wassomebody who played in one of the Batmanmovies who also has the name Kelly Vaughn. Then, 30 minutes from me, there's adentist named Kelly Vaughn, and I know thisbecause I almost went to that dentistjust so I could say, "Yes, my name isKelly Vaughn." Like, no, like who's, like, what'sthe name of your dentist anyway? I was going to have fun with it, and I decidedto not drive 30 minutes. Fun fact, um, thatactually is a reason that my husband isgood friends with the former creativedirector of Ogie because the formercreative director of Ogie is Joe Staples. He got really drunk at a hotel roomand LinkedIn requested him and said, "Youshould hire me because we have the samename." Six years ago, I love that; now theytext regularly and talk about streetwear. And office supplies, soyouknow, career advancement startshere. But yeah, so the advice is tochange your name, look up who the hiringmanageris. Change your name. Yep, okay. Send adrunken LinkedIn request; that’s it. Yeah,I mean, hey, that’s our show. Nothing elseis working right now for folks. I knowlike in development and in engineering,in general, it’s bad daysright now. Um, especially—oh my God—I feelbad. Like, it’s really, really rough outthere. I know, I don’t know if there’s anyfolks in the audience who are looking forjobs, but um, I know it’sinteresting. It’s bad. It is bad times,but it’s interesting, though, also because theskills that I think—like, I look back atmy first job I got in developmentwas an accident, like many other developers.Um, I actually—before I was in development—Iactually—that’s how I met Kelly. I wasbefore I was in development and working in e-commerce. So, fun fact—um, Kelly and I, I think, were actually atthe Shopify Unite in Canada one yeartogether, but didn’t know each other atthe time. We didn’t know. Yeah, and didn’tI knew and then ended up working for anagency that a couple of agencies worked with, that's a lot of the originalNetlify crew, and Kelly. I was like,“I'm just a lowly product manager here andI think I want to do this techthing.” Then I actually interviewedKelly for a grad school project, and thenwe were like, “I guess we're friends now.”At the end, that's it. That was it, andwe just hang out and our husbands talkabout carstogether. And you supply me with anunlimited supply of sausage. Yeah, thisthese are then talk aboutengineering things aswell. But flashback, I think that actuallywhen we started the Dev show, wewere like, “Okay, there's Dev and thenthere's all the ‘ish’, and I think the ‘ish’is actually what people are gettinghired for these days. Or I actually knowa few Dev people that are looking to leavetheir Dev jobs because they’re like, “Ican make more money doing the Devon my sideand just be a product manager or anengineer.” So they're actuallystealing. I've seen, I know two people whohave stolen engineering folks. Jobs, because they're like, "Look, I havethe chops in engineering, but I justdon't want to shill myself on theinternet for acompany, and I'd rather go be an engineer.Yeah, and there's a hugecrossover between dev and productmanagement, forsure. I think it's something that's beenmore noticed; like I get more, the moresenior I’ve gotten over the years. It's been,the more that's been afavor on my resume than like a hindrance. When I first started, they were like,"Product manager? I want to be in theengineering team." Forget that.You're like, "What are you gonna do, sign metickets?" And I'm like, "No, I actually don’twant to babysit engineers anymore." So,that's why I'm not trying to be inproduct management. You know why that is?Though, it's because they're looking atengineers now to have product experience.Because product managers, or folks whospend time in product, really understandthe business case behind everything.And as we move into this world, we, like, everywe're working in a lot more technicalspace. A lot of us tend to work in a lotmore technical space. You need to be able to relay a lot ofinformation to customers that tends tobe a little bit more technical. In doing so, you're able to havethat product experience, which makes your lifeso much easier as an engineer. I’mconstantly seeing joblistings for engineers where they expectyou to have that productmindset. Yeah, I think that's definitely helpfulnowadays. I also think that a lot of people are kind of moving out of development intoother types of roles. I think part ofthat’s just the availability of jobs. There aren’t a lot of them right now and the competition is reallystiff for those roles. I mean,I think that’s true in general, but it’s probably more true in developmentbecause a lot of development teamsend up falling into marketing. That’skind of the most common place I’ve seenalthough, I've seen them in product and in different places, butthey usually end up in marketing. I alwaysfeel like having been through numerousups and downs in technology. For over 25 years, I've been doing this.I always find the first thingcompanies do is cut back; they trimmarketing. They cut marketing backheavily.It’s hardto cut back on engineering because thenyou’re not going to hit your targets forall the things you want to release. But I can cut marketingand not feel immediate pain, right? Um,and then a year from nowthey’ll end up being like, “Hey, whathappened to our funnel? Our funnel isdried up! People also seemto hate us now and think we’reterrible. You know,the opinions of our company have gone down the toilet. What happened? Oh yeah, we don’t havemarketing anymore. So then it comes back;they ramp up too much, and we repeat thecycle. Um, yeah, a lot of it is long tail,and that’s half the problem. If youdon’t see that immediate ROI, you’re like,“Where’s the value in this?”Yeah, for sure. And this is why,actually this is something I recentlystarted stealing from. I started it at myLast job, when I changed managers,I made a really intentional purposeto make sure that I did it off the gate. This job, and it's a trick I actuallylearned from the journalism world, because weall know how relevant my journalismdegree is to the day-to-day work that Ido. But in the journalism world, it wasalways advocated in my Master’s degree;they were like, if you’re going to moveinto a leadership position and you wantto keep, because journalism is, as youknow, a very stable and well-paidindustry—jokes, jokes. Um, but one of thethings they said, if you’re moving into amanagement role or a leadership role inthe newsroom, make sure that you don’t lose empathy for the journalist, andprove that you still can flexthose muscles. So they always encouragedfirst-time editors, directors, or anytimethat you're moving onto that productside in a newsroom, to still write theoccasional publication and still writethe occasional article, because you canprove to everybody there that you canstill do the work. I think Istarted at lunch, surely I did it here,and now my new thing is, watch, Ican still ship production quality. Code and having just a simple PR merge,even if it's something little, it'slike you can't fight me because Itechnically contributed. I justcontributed. I opened one PR. For theentire time I've been here, I think I'vetold you about this, it was just renamingOffice 365 to Microsoft 365. That was theextent of my codecontribution. Am I capable of doing so?Yes. Am I too busy? Also,yes. Yeah, I had one time when Iwas an engineer, not a developer. One of my tasks was to basicallychange one word throughout the entiresite, which I can't remember whatthe word was, but I had a whole funnything about it. It was the most boringjob I've ever had as an engineer, by the way,and I don't mean just that. I mean ingeneral. That job was, that's the kind oftasks I get. I'd go to my boss and say,"Listen, I'm super bored. I havenothing to do. All these things aresuper easy." He's like, "Oh, I've got thisbig project that's going to take twoweeks." He'd hand it to me and I'dwrite some script and have it done. I'mlike an hour or two later, I'm like,"Hey, I'm done. What, you know, what else doYou need, but yeah, now, um, yeah, so Iwould be an expert at making pull requests for word changes. It's kind of mything. It'smy—like, someone, I don’t remember thecompany; they no longer exist, I think.They got acquired by someone. There’s anopen-source project that I made acontribution to, mostly because they hada typo on their landing page ortheir documentation page. I was like, I've seenthis like five times; I’m gonna just fixit real quick, and they sent me—they were like, "Oh my, get this!" When they gotacquired, they sent me a care package andwere like, "Thank you so much for beingpart of our journey." I’m like, Idon't eventhink you’re so welcome. Like, you’re sowelcome. Congrats on your journey; you didso good. I fixed upI mean, I got into DevOps, by the way, toget away from doing productioncode. Yeah, I got into management for thesamereason. I dabble at this point; like,that’s— you know, side projects and whatnot when I do have time to do so. Um,but that’s just—that’s where I’m betteroff spending my time. On that note, we didn't evenreally skip introductions.We didn't talk about, you know, whatyou do and where you usuallywork; we usuallytalk with people about their careertrajectories into Deel, butobviously you're the director of engineering.So, tell us about how you gotthere and your perspective on how thesevarious aspects have fit into yourroles. Yeah, so it starts all theway back when I was 11 years old when Itaught myself how to code from a bookcalled HTML Goodies. I had my ownaccount on Neopets and I wanted to makemy guild pretty, and in order to do so,I needed to learn how to code. So, my dadbought me that book. I startedfreelancing when I was 14 years old. The first project I ever did wasactually an online catalog, note-commerce because this was a long timeago. I'm not going to put years to thisone, and I was paid with a t-shirt. It was areally good deal; it was like an extra large,and I’m like the child, so you could fit two ofme in this thing. I continuedto freelance all through high school,undergrad, and grad school. I have aI have a tendency to say that I don’t want to doa thing and then I end up doing itanyway. That’s how I summarize my career. I never wanted to go into software engineeringas a career because if I had to do it,I was going to hate it.So, I have three degrees from the University of Georgia—go dogs!I earned a Bachelor of Psychology and two master’sdegrees in public health and clinicalsocial work. Basically, I’m a trainedtherapist, and all through undergrad andgrad school, I was still coding.In 2014, I happened to stumble upon atweet from someone saying, "Hey, I need anextra set of hands for some freelancework," and I thought, "I’m a poor collegestudent—sign me up!"So, he sent me WordPress sites, and at some point,he said, "Hey, I have this site on aplatform called Shopify. I know you’venever used it before, but would you like toexplore it and take on this project?"I said, "Yeah, sure, this sounds great!"I loved it immediately, which is funny,because over 10 years ago, theplatform was in such an infancystate. It was very liquid; yeah, learning wasInto the code editor, like there was nonothing. Yeah, um, and so the Shopifypartner program, the experts program, hadrecently launched, and I was able to become a Shopify expert, one of the firstin the Southeast, uh, because you hadto launch five stores. So, I made adeal with the guy I was gettingfreelance work from. I was like, "Pay meless money, let me sign up these storesunder my account and then we bothbecome experts. We're going to get evenmore work." And it worked. Um, basically, Iwhen I graduated from grad school, I started a fellowship at theCenters for Disease Control andPrevention as a, uh, like aninformatics fellow, and they requiredsomebody who had their master's in publichealth who also knew how to code. And twoweeks into the fellowship, they werelike, "So, you were the only applicant," andI'm like, "Great, good confidence booster."Lovethat. And so, um, I was balling on theFellowship stipend of $45,000 ayear, also making more freelancing duringthis time. So, I'm like, "Why am I doingboth of these things? Let me just gofreelance."After we got married, I left the fellowship program and went full-time on my own. This was in 2015. In 2016, MailChimp featured me as a freelance success story. This is like in my wins folder forever.In this article, in this interview, I said I never want to start an agency because I always want to do the fun freelance thing.Not even a month later, I was like, "I want to start an agency!"As I do, nine months later, The Tap Room became an official thing. I rebranded to The Tap Room and grew that to about 25 people globally. Obviously, a bunch of businesses needed to get online really quickly, and so we got really busy, really fast.Meanwhile, we were also moving up market at the same time. As a result, the time to close increased, and I burned myself out. I also kind of worked myself out of a job in 2021.I took a one-month sabbatical. During this one-month sabbatical, where I was supposed to be taking a break, I co-founded another company.This one was venture-backed.We raised a small round in three weeks.You know people are like, "Oh, you breathe, here's some money."I built something, and so I did thatfor a little while. Then, trying to doboth of them at the same time was justnot a good idea. Shocker! You should notrun two companies at the same time. Finally, I was just like, "I am sobeyond burned out" at this point that Ineeded to stop. So, I shut down myagency, left my startup, and joinedSpot, all within a week of each other.It was a very quick week in2022. Here I am, almost three yearslater at Spot as the director ofengineering. I oversee product andengineering for our video managementsystem product. I’m also our ITperson, and I also handle all of our securitymatters. I’ve just submitted all of ourdocumentation for Stock 2 for the thirdtime, and I amtired. So, there's my life story. I was going to say there’s a lot inthat journey. One thing I didn’t mention is,I ran a prettysuccessful course—it was one of the topcourses on Maven. Oh yeah, I also runa very popular newsletterand have a decent social following on all of theplatforms. I think that’s justimportant to call out. I think the reason that, like, if I can saythe reason that you've beenprobably so successful is something thatis the same reason that companieshired Dell in many ways. Um, is that personal interaction and beingonline at times. People don’t wantto be online. Yeah, yeah, being perpetuallyonline is definitely, um, yeah. I’ve gota pretty large following on LinkedInand the other site I no longer use. Um,I do run a course on Maven calledManagement Fundamentals for Tech Leadersor Management Fundamentals for theModern Leader. I rebranded it. I also havea self-paced version of that course aswell, um, if you don’t want to take itlive or I don’t have a session thatworks for you. Um, and yeah, I run a newsletter called The Modern Leader aswell, where I talk about, you know,leadership principles and how, you know,anybody can be a leader. You don’thave to be a manager to bealeader. I like how she called yourfollowing on social decent. It’s decent.I’ll take it. It’s a decentfollowing. It’s always so funny because ISocial media, as I did in like 2018 and 2019,when my following neither, you know, and so Ijust forget about it, like I often justforget it's there, and then somebodycomes across my account or like one ofmy old tweets from 2018 and goes viral again. I start getting messages from peopleI know in person or people from beinglike, "Uh, were you keeping a huge secretfrom us? Like, what is going on here?"And I'm like, "Nope, I'm not keeping anysecrets from you; that doesn't exist. Justdon't just close the tab, justforget about it." I would like to have an indecentfollowing; that would be a lot more fun,though, don't you think? I mean, like,I've definitely had afew of my Twitter accounts pop up forfighting and subredditsand arguing with people on the internet,so does that count as an indecentfollowing? There we go, we'll take it. Actually, no, I take it back; Aaron followsme, so I already have my indecentfollowing. I follow both of you, so you'rescrewed. That's what I mean:perfect take.Yes, but I think, like, it's interestingbecause, like, if you're a director ofIn engineering, I don't think a directorof engineering would ask you, "What is your social account?"When I was last in the interview process, I had peopleasking, "Do you promise to use Twitter?"It was during the time when peoplewere starting to use Twitter, and I thought,"Why do you care about this so much?"I've had companies tell me, "You're toopolitical online." I replied, "Well, then I'mnot going to work here either."But we don't see if that same critiqueexists if you're on the engineeringside—yes and no. It exists when you alreadyhave a large presence, because I represent the companyI work for, and the company I work forrepresents me whether I like it or not. This is part of having a large following. If somebody sees my profilefrom a post I made, they can seewhere I work, and therefore, there is anaffiliation that happens there. It'sthe same way if something isposted on our company account, andyou go to view our page on thecompany LinkedIn. The work that the Association has alsobeen made the reverse that reverseway, which means like anything thecompany posts I am basically advocatingfor, because of my presence, and viceversa. I would agree with that. I thinkthat that's even part of, um, you know, Iam a—now I guess there was thisgroup last night, kind of taking a littletangent here. There’s a group last nightthat we haven’t here in Orlando. They’reTech Optimus, and they come and they talkabout tech optimism. It’s a whole thing; Iguess, I don’t know, and I’m like I wasgoing there because I help run a lotof groups here, and I just support them. Iam not a member; I just give themaccess to the building, and I’m like, yeah,I can’t join this group. Anyway, I’m atech pessimist right now. But Ithink, um, my point thereis that it really is important; you do have that dual Association. Unfortunately, a lot of these companiesare doing things that it’s like I don’twant my name associated with it,especially developments. Like, you’re—you’re there; that is your public presence,like, is the company. And so thethings they do can tarnish you asWell, exactly. In a lot of companies, Imean, when it comes to marketing,company branding doesn’t work thesame way as it did a long time ago. It isemployee branding for the company,which is why you see a lot more peopleposting individual stories. You know,you’re not going to be getting as muchout of like the company saying, “Here’sthis great thing we built and you’regoing to love it,” versus having anengineer, or an engineering leader, post something saying,“Here’s something our team built, and we absolutely love it. Here’s why you’ll like it as well.” Then you see friends post about it, oryou just see your friends show upin the videos posted from the company,almost like a little behind-the-scenesthing, and it’s going to bring a lot moreattention to the brand. That companybranding just doesn’t workanymore, which is, I guess, a good case forif you are in development and you want to goback towards, you know, anengineering role or leadership role, or aproduct role or product marketing role.I think all those are strengths you built in. Your development career can still benefityou in those kinds of roles. So, I'd sayplay them up when you talk to thecompany. Not only can I code, but Ican be a strong advocate for everythingwe build. You know, even as an engineer. Yeah, but I think also in that case —Kelly, I don't know if you had this, but Ihad to — my last two contracts, I was acomedian, making money in my comedy career.When I applied for jobs, usually whenyou have your list of prior inventions,you don't normally put downcomedy. But because I pay taxes on it andI technically own the IP for it, I putdown comedy, and it came with adouble-edged sword. I had been asked toperform comedy for free at a lot ofconferences. Oh nope, I have been asked —and I mean, I mean, very fortunately,Launch Darkly actually sponsoredone of my comedy shows. It was great, butI got paid for it, and we had to —we had to write a separate agreement out. I had to get sign-off from legal because I waslike, I can do this, but this is outsideof my scope of work at my day job. Um, orI do expect compensation in someway, shape, or form. Yeah, but I think, goingback, it's like also having a manager. That gets that is really important. LikeI've had, I've been politically active inmy career. I did have a career inpolitics; I still am active in theDemocrat Socialist group here in NewYork City. I am very involved, part of theSunrise Project movement and I do likeyou can look me up; there is politicalwork on my work history and it's workthat I'm proud of, and some employerswill not hire me because of it.Yeah, I've had two companies that havebeen like, "You've worked as a lobbyist;we will not hire you." Yep, and I'm like,okay, but it can go both ways.Because my current manager also had aprevious career in politics and alsodoes get that system, so there's alittle more vetting that has to go intothat. There is, and anytime you bring, Imean, anytime you bring politics into a conversation, that's going to be somedivision that happens there. Um, but likeif your resume shows that you supportedany particular candidate or a politicalparty, there's going to be bias naturallythat occurs, whether you agree with it ornot. You know, if I see somebody whoworked on, like, if I saw yourresume, I'd be like, "Oh cool, we're actuallyYou're going to get along for a lot of reasons,but if I saw somebody who worked, likelet's say they worked at the RNC, like a campaign or something,I’m going to have a different feeling about that. When I know,like a job is a job is a job sometimes,but typically, you know, your politicalleaning does play into your everydaylife. That is just human nature. We can’tseparate those two. I don’t necessarilythink that’s a bad thing in many ways. Like, I think we really talkabout this whole attitude. I used tohave a friend who ran a podcast called"Spill It," and it was on wage transparency.She would invite people on, and she'dbe like, "Will you talk about your salarypublicly? I want to know your total compensationand I want to know about your contractsfrom each of the last five years."The speakers would have to actuallysubmit their offer letters, and itcreated these really great conversations.I loved it. Shout out to Tiffany; she'snow at Spotify, crushing it. But really, Ithink it creates these conversations that have a verydifferent feel when it’s justHonest about it versus sweeping itunder the rug or under the table, likeabsolutely. I always feel complaining is— um you know, I was at I do volunteerone of the groups I work with ispolitically organized, politically, uh, political-based organization. However,they're nonpartisan, they’reon access to vote. Um, given the state ofthings, that's now become a partisanissue, but it’s a whole otherconversation. Um, and literally allthey're doing is increasing access tothe polls and helping people understandwhen to register, when is your last dayof registration,and helping folks fact-check things atthe polls. I had a company that waslike, I know that you're doing this andit's nonpartisan, but like we wouldreally prefer—like we don’t care thatyou do this, but make sure that you arenot wearing any logos, any swag, anymaterials, or identifying yourself as anemployee of our company while you'redoing this. Yep, I was like, okay, and thatwas 2020. Election, yep, that’s not surprising. I andI see it, I see it kind of slip throughsometimes in some other, like whatWhat some other people are postingonline that they don't even recognizeis that they mighthave employer branding on and theygo to vote, and they just take a picturebecause they're proud of voting, and thatassociation has now been made. Again,it's innocuous; like, it's not meantto be something that's harmful, buteverything is partisan. Also, I appreciatethe fact that we're really leaning intothe ish side of Devrelish;always learning. Conversation the chapter yet, but I dothink it's important for developers,because, I mean, they are verypublic by nature. Like, so, um, and oftentimes public, not just that, that's partof what makes them good at their job, asthey're out there. But they're oftenout there with all sides of their lives,not just the job side of their lives. Andlike, it can follow you whereveryou go. That being said, I mean, I thinkyou know,I always think it's funny; there's abit of a double standard because, like,companies are like, "You can't do this," andthen you see the, you know, the CEOs And whatever, who were like, "Yeah, you justdonated millions of dollars to, like,whatever." You know, like, how's itokay for you? Um, but um you know that's awhole other topic as well. But I think it goes both ways, right? Like, yeah,there's, I've also seen, we all saw it when someone gets laid offfrom their job. Guess what? You are 20times more visible if you're in thatrole and you've been that face of, "Yep, belike fired off on Twitter." And even likewe've gone around and deleted peoplewho said something, and you're just like,"Whoa, trash opinion, dude!"And that can equally kill your career. Like, I have had, um, there issomeone that, you know, uh, I know that weactively talked to. Brian and I had a conversationwith them, and we were just like, "Whoa, weare watching a fire burn." And we werejust like, and then they turnedaround and asked us for a job, and I waslike, "You've got to be kidding." I have no commentsbecause it's like, I don't know what todo at that point, but it goes bothways and the world is so small that youdon't knowlike, people talk. And I think that's theThe thing is, companies want and like thereason you hired Deel is, in some ways, to get access to the back channel. Right?Yeah, but that back channel is adouble-edged sword, and it can be used inreally great ways. Like, I have definitelysent my love to sales folks to death.But sometimes, I had to be like, "Dude, canyou please get off? You're being super,super, super cringe."Stop! Um, and that's usually most of thetime it happens, but, uh, yeah, it's weird.Hey Wesley, yeah, great to haveyou guys here. I'm not even gonna lie; weknow the most people, so we're probablythe most gossipypeople. I think Wesley knows this.Wesley knows this probably because Iknow he was involved in politics, if Irecall, or like in and around, um,Austin, if I recall correctly. Wesley,maybe you feel this personally. You know, having that kind of following, it can be good.It can be bad; I mean, I guess it depends.Personally, I'm in a place in my career where, thankfully, I can feellike, you know what? If you look at some of this stuff and you seemy personal feelings orPolitical leanings or whatever, and Idon't get the job, it probably wasn'ta good fit anyway. That's exactly the way Itake it. Yeah, I wouldn't have enjoyedworking here or working for youanyway, right? Yes. So Wesley, did he runfor Austin City Council in 2016? Yeah,so, but um, yeah, but I also feel likelook, I know people right now who havebeen super talented who’ve beenlooking for months and months. Right? Likethere's just not a lot out there. Yeah, and at that point, like, and ifyou aren't, you know, don’t have theability to kind of go along without ajob, like it may start, it may besomething that you’re like, "Oh, you know,this is hurting me, and I can'tundo it necessarily." Um, yeah, and Iyou know, maybe I would be willing totake that job, even if it was a bad fit.Um, if you need the job, like it's a placeof privilege to be able to say, "I am going to turn down thisopportunity," or "I don’t want to work atthis company even though they want mebecause I won't like them." Yeah, and Imean, like, we’re all white-presenting, CIS-presenting individuals. Like, that's we’redealing with a lot of layered issues. And levers of intersectionality that areafforded to us. I think that’ssomething that we can't negate, andthat’s something I have seenamong trans friends of mine specifically.It’s like where things have happened,andit’s how dare—like I had to bite mytongue recently, because it was like, howdare this job application ask for mypronouns? I’mlike, okay, breathe deep. Breathe deep, breathe. If you’re gonnathrow this much of a stink about it,again, it goes bothways. Is that somethingthat people want to have? That’sagain, culture. I don’t think everybody’s likeoh, culture happens by what you do, andthere’s a really great article, um, that’slike, we don’t do that here. I thinkculture is equally about what you policeand what you enforce and what you don’tenforce. So, if you have your site doingsomething that I see would not beallowed to do at your organization, likeI think that’s a good internal gut checkand gauge. I know for a fact that Ihave seen my way out of interviews thathave gone that way. It’s amazing. When you start asking those questions,I always ask, "How do I handle asituation if I actually don't agree withthe company?" That's a questionI always ask in interviews, and um, Ibring it to the surface. I'm like, my workportfolio does have political work in it.What is your interaction with that? I doactively volunteer for politicalorganizations, and nine times out of ten,they're fine. But then, you know, the othertimes, it's usually I've had some otherred flag even before that question shoutsout to the company that once told methey needed a devil that was a womanbecause they needed someone to make pretty little YouTubevideos. I really wish you could see them now,but it's fine. Iwish I could actually remember theirname. To be totally honest, I don't evenremember which one, honestly, is like thebest karma because they're so irrelevantthat you can't even remember their name.Yeah, but pretty littlevideos? I've, I yeah, I've seen that before.Companies that do that, you know,they're usually looking forin my experience, it never ends upworking out. Women, or whatever they choose, are looking for influencers. Youknow, types who think that if they hire thisinfluencer, that's somehow going tomagically bring them a following. It never reallyworks out, honestly. I've seen it so many times,and it doesn’t transfer that way, right? In thissame way, I think it’s important to note that thesecompanies are going to look at the workyou’re doing. You know, like thethings you do outside of work impact the perception of you. At the same time, it doesn’t meanthat everything just rubs off. I can’tjust assume that your big audience onLinkedIn is going to be decent anyway. AsAaron says, indecent. It’s actuallyindecent, now that Brian brought up thefact that I follow you both. So it’s nowindecent. You have an indecent following. But it’s not like there’s suddenly this bigtransference of like, “Oh, hey! Kelly hasthis giant following on LinkedIn.”Working at Spot AI now, Spot AI is superfamous because, you know, it just doesn'twork that way. Um, you know, there arepeople that wish, yes, they do wish, butwe're pulling from the CPG world, rightback to e-commerce. How many YouTubersand celebrities andTikTok-famous folks started brands andwhite-labeled them during the 2020-2021years? Yep, most of those brands don'texist now, believe it or not. If you are aTikTok icon, you're probably not reallygood at e-commerce; it's not—it’s not adirect correlation. There is not a direct correlation. Exactly. There are somepeople who have done phenomenally, but mostpeople—that there requires a differentkind of brain to run a brand. Whetherlike, if you are selling a thing, itrequires a different kind of brain. Um,a good example is, um, Pop Flex; like she hascrushed it, and she started with Fitnessvideos. And now she has on Vlog Lotesexactly. Uh, and now she has a whole brandthat, I mean, also, it really helped thatTaylor Swift was wearing one of herskirts in a recent video, and everyoneimmediately pointed out andknew what it was. And so that also helpedexplode her business, which I'm happy for. Her, or um, Hol Taco, which wasChristine. I'm in her Discord as an earlyfan. We did a Discord celebrationlive stream celebration when shelaunched an Ulta. Shout out toAaliyah Mandez of, uh, can’t even rememberher brand name right now; she’s gonnakill me! I'm gonna text her and be like,"Sugar." So, sugar, actually, this is the trueTikTok story. Um, I was actually workingwith her husband at the time, and she wasmaking the product out of her garage.Now it is sold in Ulta and is inthe Ulta incubator program,and is the first national sugarwaxing brand started by a Black woman.Her videos took off on TikTok, butshe had the product. Also, her husband wasa founder of an e-commerce company, andstill consults and is way up atShopify, doing a lot of that work. So,she knew what it took to besuccessful, and had the resources fromthat e-commerce background. Also, beingmarried to a developer, a Shopifydeveloper, if you're a founder, is kind ofnice. That’s really helpful! Yeah, really,like minor things, it’s like I'mmarried to an editorial director, so thank you so much for all the times thatHe has edited my blogs. Yeah, I have afriend in Michigan that opened abookstore and sandwich shop with herhusband, and her background is in SEOmarketing. You can imagine how quicklyher follower count grew and how muchattention that business got earlyon. And you know, she launched an onlinestore for it because she was mySEO person for all my Ecombrands that I work with. So likeshe's been cross-promoting it aswell. Some skills do transfer. Followeraccounts, though—follower accounts do nottransfer. Follower accounts do nottransfer. No, I have no idea how manypeople following are also bots, sothere's always that. And it'sinteresting because on Twitter, maybeyeah, I might also be a bot. So I mean,we're all in the AI world. So actually,isn't that just us? Like, aren't wejust all agents talking right now? Like,we're multimodal agents. Y'all, we all—I don't know how much agency I actuallyhave right now. So I mean, that’s on brandfor agents as well, though. Um, fair.Fair. Um, wait, you’re talking to somebodywho works in an AI company. Well, you workIn an AI company, that’s why we can joke about it. Okay, I can’t joke about it.I didn’t mention any product pitches; we’re good.But if you wanted to get an evaluation or video capture, jokes, jokes...Um, I think we know someone who does the local for AWS environments as well.But just maybe, yeah.But that’s not here, done.Complete. Um, that being said,we were talking about AI agents and, wow, brain. But like that follower account transition...Uh, the thing that I find really interesting is we often usefollower account to determine who is a successful one.Y, and that’s, I personally think that’s the absolute worst metric.Um, I actually had this conversation at work related to the devil today.There was a heated conversation this week at work about should we launch a support forum or Discord?And I said, if it’s for support and we’re doing a good job with our product and ourdocumentation and our support teams, do we want that Discord to grow?Right? That should be for, you know, third-party devsA brand like that is why the ShopifyPartners, Slack, and then Discord havealways been so successful, because it'speople wanting to learn more, and it'snot people troubleshooting for the mostpart. I mean, that does exist, obviously. Like, I don’t understand how this, youknow, what’s going on with this, this, uh,graph Q Al call. I’m trying to make, like,it’s not working. Why is it not working?Sure, but usually it's not like actualbugs that are being reported inthere. It is hard, though, becauseI’m dealing with the opposite problem. Ihave a really large community,but they largely see our—well, it’s aSlack, because it’s been around for awhile. But, um,like, for Discord, it really kind of made thetransition into these kinds ofcommunities. Butlike, you know, they really only see it assupport. Um, and we have a big open sourceset of users, and they just, they comeand see it as support, and I’m liketrying—it’s not my strength, honestly, indeveloping, like, building that community part.You know, because I struggled, like,because it just requires so mucheffort. Community is a lot of effort. I really appreciate the kind of work that people do,because to build that you have to be consistent.It's like, every day you're trying to engage themand come up with ways to getthem to see this as more thanjust a place to post my problems.It's a lot; it's a kindof commitment that you can't dopart-time. No, it is a whole job;it should not be one of the many things that youdo in a DevOps role. I think the other thing is for thoselooking to get started; we’ve allseen it. We've all scheduled those posts,and they're like very clearly chat GPT“25 things,” “B2B,” “blah blah blah,”“hashtag, hashtag, hashtag.”I think if you really want tostart any community or any techorganization wanting to start a “quoteunquote community,” the firstthing is to start by replying to yourLinkedIn comments. Step one: respondto an email with an originalthought. That’s the way to do it, becauseI will actually respond to those;people appreciate that you take the time. I think, Kelly, that the reason we first connected is because I was like,"It does actually really respond; it's areal person." The reason these brands or hugefollowers can take off is because, I mean, I'min the hollow Taco Discord right now.We're geeking out, and I'm excitedto go see her on live streams on Twitch.Yeah, that's a nail polish company.One of my best friends is also obsessedwith that live stream every Saturday morning. Yeah, me too, I'm obsessed.I know Brian is really into the Unicorn glitter topcoats. Yes, I am! So I actually don't evenhave TikTok; I've never had TikTok.Speaking of social media, this did hinder me in mysearch for a new job; I've beenlittle by little moving myself asmuch as possible. I was off Twitterthe day Elon took over, and I haven'tbeen back. I deleted my accounteventually. I've been off Facebooksince 2016. You know, you can kind of puttogether the dates of things anyway.Now, I'm off Instagram too.I'm not on Instagram anymore.I deleted that account. Threads because I just, yeah, um, it's youknow, I know, but again, I'm in that kindof position, especially at this point inmy career where I'm like, "Oh, I can makethat choice," and it's not gonna, like, Idon't—I can live, it's not that it'snot going to impact my career, it'sthat I will live with the impact that ithas on my career. I mean, you can live withthe impact, exactly. I can, yeah, yeah. Meanwhile, I haven't deleted any of myaccounts; I just don't post becausesomebody will create an account withthat same name, and I do have a brand, andI have to maintain that, no matter, nomatter what, which is a shame. But I, youknow there is somebody who is posingas me on TikTok, and I cannot for thelife of me get that accountshut down. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Imean, I think, like, if you keep it private,if you move things private to still keepyour username, it can't—yeah, can'texactly. I did that for a bit, and then I just, um,you know, I had—I didn't have, I didn't have a decent following. I had—I, I, butit was, especially on Twitter, I had thebiggest following of any of the socialmedia, and people just still keptDMing me and everything, and I neverchecked it, so I was like, "Yeah, just killthe account." Yeah, but I didn't haveenough of a following that anybody was, you know,really going to be trying to impersonateme. I think we'll see. I have also Aron gets ideas in herhead. Now she's— I was going to say, this iswhere the indecent followers comethrough. I'm like, "Holdon, let me— oh, his username is available. Let me go grab it. There are some peoplewho I still will DM on Twitterbecause that's where I can find them, andthat's the fastest way to reach them. Butlike, my DMs are otherwise shut;people can't just reach out to me. Andhonestly, most of the time my DMs wereopen, there was just spam. All of it wasspam. Somebody had some crypto projectfor me, and we've moved pastthat. I did appreciate having, you know, inthat peak time when people werebuying like the fun NFTs. I had likea non-fungible Olive Garden, um, which gotshut down, but it was the cost— it waslike $29.99 or whatever it was; that waslike the cost of unlimited soup, salad,and breadsticks. Like, it was purely justLike, it was two months of fun, and thatwas money wellspent—important, like important things. And I think—I chose to—I asked when I was interviewing, and theywere like, "We are choosing to keep apresence. We don’t like that we’rekeeping a presence, but we’re choosing tokeep a presence because of the industry."Like, I understand that even though I cangrumble about it, but I really liked—um—Hank Green actually went on, like, a livestream about it, and I caught it, and I was like,“Wait, I actually really appreciated yourapproach because you talked about, like,breaking through chambers. And if youpull up his Twitter account right now—because I refuse to call it the otherthing—um, he has a, basically, his biosays—actually, pull it up, it says this:"This account is not actively managed; itsometimes reposts from other platforms,or from my blue sky, a Twitter-likething built on an open platform, givingmore users, giving its users more control."And then, openly, he was like, "I don’t agreewith this. I don’t do this, but it isimportant for other reasons that Iam cross-posting here."And it also—I’msitting here, but like, doesn’t engage. Doesn't really engage your report, whichI'masserting that — so I actuallyautomated mine to do very much the same.And it's kind of like, I don't have the appon my phone. Don't, yeah, I don't have theapp on my phone. I like that ideathough because I like the one — thehardest part for me is the trade-off oflike, I am also leaving money on thetable. Like, I'm not able to, you know,promote my course and stuff. I am able tochoose not to promote my course onTwitter, but I also get a lot of leads from there, and I get a lot of— I am— it is a conscious choicethat I am making to say like, I'm settingthis money aside, knowing that just like,I cannot post on Twitter. Like, Ijust cannot bring myself to do it. Yeah, Ihad the same thing when I quitTwitter, even though, like, again myfollowing wasn't that huge. But it was alot of the views on this site, which youknow, it's not like this site's a reallyto be honest, the money-making venture ofany kind. You know, it sustains itself, but—it was where a lot of the views— I kind of— IKind of, I’ve accepted it in the sense Idon’t know if it’s right or not, but Iwas like, well, the Twitter that I’mtalking about was the Twitter before, notthe Twitter today. Yes, um, and I don’tknow that it means even we—we’re still upthere that my company. We’ve actuallylargely voted to get off Twitter, but we haven’tofficially done it yet. The company, asa whole, doesn’t seem to. And part of itis I’m making the case, BEC, by sayinglook, there’s really no engagementthere anyway. Like, we’re not gettinganything because we refuse to pay them for the engagement. And then you, so youdon’t get any. Um, so at least they’remaking it a little bit easier on us tomake that case because it’s justyeah, um, so as this is usually the pointin the show where we transition to themost important aspect. I mean, as wetalked about, we are the number one showon YouTube. Yeah, the number one show fordevil and, uh, the combination ofdevil andfermentation. Um, it’s really, yeah, we’recategory leading in that area. Ilove it. Yeah, so this is, uh, this is Eron’stime. This is the pickle. Fact of the month, I guess we onlydo this once a month. So what's ourpickle fact? Um, our pickle fact actuallydoesn't even involve real-lifefermentation. So this is—I’m gettingreally—ish with this too. Um, but have youheard of the Dill PickleClub? It has nothing to do with dill orpickles, but why is it called theDill Pickle Club then? Well, it's the mostinfluential, influential speaking cabaretand theaters that later became apolicy house during the ChicagoRenaissance between 1917 and1935. It housed a bunch of popularAmerican authors, activists, and speakers. It also has a variety ofdifferent breeds offerments of reincarnations including theChicago Dill Pickle Club, the Dill PickleFood Co-op, where they do sell pickles. Idid Google that, the Dill Pickle Press,which is one of the first early Zenhouses, and the Dill Pickle Club ofPortland, Oregon, which brands itself asan experimental forum forcritiquing contemporary culture, politics,andhumanities. But there actually was a—it originally had a lot of regular coverage. By the Chicago Daily News, um, it isofficially a nonprofit since 1930of Illinois. H, maybe we need a Dill PickleClub of Devo that doesn’t actually haveanything to do with pickles, unlike a Devoshow that is partly about pickles. Um, I could not Idid Google and try to figure out why itwas called the Dill Pickle Club, and Iactually have no idea, but they reallyjust kind of branded themselves as that.Um, but it’s hugely like a superProgressive activist group. They actuallydid a lot of, um, theyhave 12 plus Pulitzer Prize winnerswho are membersof the Dill PickleClub. What I did learn is, as I wasGoogling this, as you were also readingabout it, is there is a brand thatcreated a murder mystery party basedaround the Dill Pickle Club, but it’s withoneel. I likethis, so I also really like theiroriginal sign that was "Elevate your mindto a lower level of thinking," which feelslike my type of people. Yes, it was like everything that saysabout thissounds like a good time. Um, butApparently, there's a historiclandmark in Chicago. Um, next time I'm inChicago, I have to learn and hang outthere. Yeah,but, uh, the original location has beenshut down because apparently thebuilding's been condemned or something. Iread thatpolicy, yeah. So, now you've talkedabout Aon, about yourtravels around pickles and fermentation. I was like, you could start—here's aside business. You could do pickleand fermentation-related tourism.You know,because you're always like, "Oh,I'm gonna go there and see this." I’m, yeah,this is actually the new. This is—forgetgoing into politics.After my career in tech, I’m gonna justgo and be a pickle tour guide. Dill tourism—write offall my pickling supplies. I literallyhave dill growing in my window sills righthere, just kidding! But, probably, it’s abusiness expense—a business expense. It'sresearch, so you know how to betterpodcast. Why haven't I written this offearlier? That is a goodpoint! Podcast—what? I'm hosting thenumber one pickle podcast, fermentation. The Endeavo podcast on YouTube, I could writeoff.Anyhow, this first, first you need to makemoney off of this to call it abusiness. So, I have one more comment tomake about the Dill Pickle Club. Um, I wasreading that the doors, uh there was anorange door that was inscribed with thewords, "Step high, stoop low, leave yourdignity outside." And I'm like, I'mhere, so if you find Kelly and I, we'recurrently getting the renaissance of theDill Pickle Club almost 100 years later. A littleover 100 years later, let's do it. Itsounds great to me! I mean, that actually fits the vibe with theshow in away. I also am reading that they, theadmission, the only thing they made moneyfrom was refreshments, and theyplagiarized books and republished them tomakemoney. So, people give B! I'm like, theseare kind of cool; they didn't make anymoney on the actual club, just the beerandthe copyrightinfringement. This is such an interestingarticle, you need to read. To sit down and actually read this infull, um, Aon, I'm texting it to you so youhave it as well. I was going to say I was Googling this morning when I was lookingfor picklefacts. Great! This is a very long article,but there's a lot of really good, uh,photos in there aswell. Did she post it in the chat? I sent it to Erin via text so she canyou can send it over because Iam not signed in. I think I candrop it. Oh, EMT, if you have,if you know, we can partner up because I am likethis is literally what I do. Thisis what I do; I make businesses thatdon't make money. Um, so I was going to sayEthan would be another good invite tothe Pickle Club. Ethan and I have sharedit. Um, low logger! Yeah, this is helping.Great! Amazing! Love important stuff here, man. This isimportant work we're doing. I told youthis is whywhy wecategorize, but it's actually payment inpickles or picklepuns. All right, so we're reaching the topof the hour. I know we could talk aboutpickles for a really, really long time. At Leisa Aronin, um, got starting the nextbusiness. Yeah, I think, well,you already have all the fermentationstuff, so you're ready. You're ready to go.Ready to go. Yeah, I mean, you could startthe Dill Pickle Club and actually haveit have something to do withpickles. Yeah, do a pickle club in NewYork City, um, but only serve picklesthat are notdill. Yes, except dill pickles are thebest. There's like a secret—there'slike a secret password or somethingthat you have to say, which is actuallythat slogan that I mentioned that'sin SC in thedoor. We're gonna counterfeit some stuff. I gotta figure out what we're going tocounterfeit.I'll help you brainstorm this one.Yeah, I think, I think, I think the AI canhelp you do with that one. Oh, you'rethat's a good point. Pickle AI! Pickle AI!Just keep on asking ChatGPT togenerate images like, more pickles.Morepickles! Expand the fermentation. Let'ssee what happens. Yeah, what then? We canget Will Ferrell to like be holding apickle and like more pickles. The conversation has really gone off therails,but let's put alid on the picklejar. It's a great tagline, isn't it?Great, yeah. Yes, yep, I love it.Now, so Ethan gets it. Ethan gets it, well,that's what we're here for; we're here toinspire people, not about development,apparently, but all about pickles becauseall of a sudden, the chat's just poofwhen wetalk. It's amazing how that works. All right y'all, well, uh, we are at thetop of the hour. Um, Erin, it was great asalways to co-host with you, and Kelly, itwas awesome to have you on the show. Um,and chat about mostly the latest part ofDeborah, but in politics and pickles, anduh, social media and all that stuff. Itwas great, so thanks for being here.Thanks for having me.Um, and thank you to everybody who washere watching.It's been fun to chat with you all andtalk about pickles and everythingelse. Um, we will be back next month; wehaven't set a date yet, so follow cf. tokeep up with the nextDev Relish show. Two full stacks, which is coming up ina couple of weeks, or is it next week? Ithink it’s next week, um, which is another show that we run that’s alllike a frontend code-focused event. Thenwe’ve got Camden, who does his codebreak show as well, which is coming up, soyou can keep up with all those shows, aswell as everything else we do on thatsite. We being me, Aaron, Ray, andNick, the shenanigans here, it’s much better than opensource. Yeah, so uh, yeah, we’ll see younext month. Bye., Management Fundamentals With Kelly Vaughn, Certified Fresh Events, 01jn3j2fdy7gdxj19ycnv7k089.