Mental Health Q&A w/ Dr. Courtney Tolinski  ## Metadata - Author: [[Syntax]] - Full Title: Mental Health Q&A w/ Dr. Courtney Tolinski - Category: #articles - Document Note: --- tags: [Mental Health, Neurodiversity, Workplace] author: [MISSING] source: [YouTube] reference: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ1hx1R-qGs] date created: {{date:YYYY-MM-DD}} {{time:HH:mm}} --- # 🏷️ Title: Mental Health Q&A w/ Dr. Courtney Tolinski ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - Include links cited in or relevant to the article. ## 📝 Summary - The video hosts a practical mental health Q&A with a psychologist. It focuses on neurodiversity at work and everyday tactics. [Video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ1hx1R-qGs) - It suggests structured support, clear communication, and flexible systems. These improve outcomes for neurodivergent teammates. [Video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ1hx1R-qGs) - Key stakeholders include managers, developers, teams, and care professionals. Families and communities also benefit from better practices. [Video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ1hx1R-qGs) - Risks include stigma, burnout, and poorly designed accommodations. Tradeoffs involve time costs and process changes. [Video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ1hx1R-qGs) - Bottom line: humane structure beats ad-hoc heroics. Normalize support, systems, and informed referrals. [Video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ1hx1R-qGs) ## 📖 Main Content - The conversation frames neurodiversity as diverse strengths and needs. It rejects one-size approaches. [Video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ1hx1R-qGs) - Managers should co-design supports with teammates. Use short instructions, deadlines, and office hours. [Video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ1hx1R-qGs&t=360) - Disclosure at work is optional and context dependent. Discuss work preferences if diagnosis feels private. [Video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ1hx1R-qGs&t=780) - ADHD and autism require careful evaluation by trained clinicians. Self-diagnosis risks confusion with anxiety or stress. [Video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ1hx1R-qGs&t=1020) - Tools help but cannot replace human connection. AI is supportive, not a therapist. [Video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ1hx1R-qGs&t=2625) - Overwork can be episodic but must not be chronic. Boundaries and rest protect health and relationships. [Video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ1hx1R-qGs&t=2289) - Practical tactics include calendars, task triage, and wind-down routines. Replace screens with movement or reading at night. [Video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ1hx1R-qGs&t=3180) ### 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ1hx1R-qGs&t=7) Setup and goals - Hosts introduce a licensed psychologist. - Q&A covers workplace, diagnosis, and daily tactics. #### ⏱️ [02:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ1hx1R-qGs&t=123) Neurodiversity basics - Neurodiversity spans a spectrum. - Strengths and needs vary widely. #### ⏱️ [04:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ1hx1R-qGs&t=241) Support at work - Provide structure and short emails. - Break projects into smaller steps. #### ⏱️ [06:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ1hx1R-qGs&t=363) Manager practices - Hold office hours and ask preferences. - Avoid assumptions; co-create supports. #### ⏱️ [08:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ1hx1R-qGs&t=491) ADHD at home and work - Scheduling and task initiation challenge many. - Calendars and simple checklists help. #### ⏱️ [11:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ1hx1R-qGs&t=704) Disclosure choices - You do not need to disclose diagnoses. - Share work styles and needs instead. #### ⏱️ [17:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ1hx1R-qGs&t=1042) Autism indicators - Social nuance can be difficult. - Restricted interests and sensory needs appear. #### ⏱️ [22:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ1hx1R-qGs&t=1358) Getting evaluated - Use primary care referrals. - Psychiatrists assess ADHD; psychologists test learning. #### ⏱️ [29:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ1hx1R-qGs&t=1776) Medication and mindfulness - Medication can aid focus and emotion regulation. - Mindfulness trains present attention. #### ⏱️ [32:57](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ1hx1R-qGs&t=1977) ACT mindset - Align effort with values. - Defuse the inner critic with visuals. #### ⏱️ [38:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ1hx1R-qGs&t=2297) Overwork framing - Sprints can help careers. - Chronic overwork harms wellbeing. #### ⏱️ [43:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ1hx1R-qGs&t=2625) AI limits - AI assists documentation and ideas. - Therapy still requires human empathy. #### ⏱️ [50:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ1hx1R-qGs&t=3035) Wind-down routines - Use alarms to start routines. - Swap screens for movement and baths. ## 📚 References - [Video: Mental Health Q&A w/ Dr. Courtney Tolinski](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ1hx1R-qGs) - [Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (overview)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acceptance_and_commitment_therapy) — general background; verify with clinical sources. - [Headspace](https://www.headspace.com/) and [Calm](https://www.calm.com/) — apps mentioned; availability may vary. ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - The guests outline practical ways to support neurodivergent colleagues. They emphasize structure, communication, and collaborative planning. - They explain diagnosis pathways and limits of AI in care. They recommend boundaries, values work, and simple daily routines. ## 📰 Newsletter - This week on community care: supporting neurodivergent teammates without burnout. - Keep requests short. Offer office hours. Add shared calendars and checklists. - For WordPress contributors, publish work-style preferences in team docs. - Mentors: model small tasks, clear deadlines, and gentle feedback. - Resources: the Q&A video above, ACT primers, and mindfulness app trials. ## ✅ Action Items - DevRel - Publish a “Neuroinclusive PR Flow” guide with examples. - Host a 45-minute AMA on work-style prefs and boundaries. - Developer advocacy: plans, talks, demos, and measurable outcomes. - Track adoption of team charters stating communication norms. - Aim for 75% of active repos adding CONTRIBUTING.md preferences. - Education: workshops, curricula, office hours, mentorship programs. - Offer quarterly “supporting ADHD at standup” micro-workshops. - Create checklists for task breakdown and estimate practice. - Developer experience: docs, SDKs, examples, templates, quickstarts. - Provide issue templates with scope, steps, and timeboxes. - Add labels for “small wins” and “pairing welcome.” - Developer marketing: campaigns, content, funnels, and attribution. - Promote stories of inclusive teams with measurable retention lifts. - Community management: moderation, code of conduct ops, surveys. - Add office-hours rotations and publish escalation paths. - Internal/external/cross-project: align goals, SLAs, and feedback loops. - Run monthly retro on communication friction and fixes. - OSPO - Policy & Governance: contribution policies, decision rights, charters. - Include accommodation requests in contributor guides. - License Compliance: policies, scanning, review, and training cadence. - Schedule short learning sprints; avoid marathon trainings. - Security Management: vuln intake, embargo policy, signing, attestations. - Provide quiet hours and clear on-call rotations. - Software Inventory: SBOM strategy, ownership, freshness SLOs. - Assign small SBOM tasks to pairs for learning. - Developer Support: training, tooling, legal guardrails, consultation ho - Summary: Wes and Scott talk with Dr. Courtney Tolinski about supporting neurodivergent teammates, navigating workplace dynamics, and recognizing strengths beyond labels. They explore ADHD diagnosis and treatment, productivity mindsets, burnout, AI in mental health, and practical routines for focus and balance. 🔥 Be the ~14,700th person to join our super tasty newsletter https://bit.ly/syntax_snackpack Show Notes: (00:00) - Welcome to Syntax! (00:09) - Meet Dr. Courtney Tolinski (01:46) - Supporting neurodivergent team members (12:26) - Should I disclose my ADHD diagnosis at work? (17:21) - Characteristics of Autism and ADHD (22:37) - Seeking diagnosis as an adult developer (28:04) - Brought to you by Sentry.io (32:18) - Uncoupling identity from productivity (38:06) - Is overtime ever “worth it”? (42:34) - AI as a Mental Health Tool: Hope or Hype? (46:32) - Will therapists be replaced by AI? (49:29) - Burnout warning signs in high-performers (55:15) - Sick Picks + Shameless Plugs All links available at https://syntax.fm/942 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hit us up on Socials! Syntax: https://x.com/syntaxfm Scott: https://x.com/stolinski Wes: https://x.com/wesbos CJ: https://x.com/CodingGarden Randy: https://www.youtube.com/@randyrektor http://www.syntax.fm Brought to you by Sentry.io #webdevelopment #webdeveloper #javascript #syntax #syntaxfm #webdev - URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ1hx1R-qGs Welcome to Syntax. Today we have Dr. Courtney Tinski on Scott. Can you introduce Dr. Courtney Tinsky? >> Yes. Uh joining me in studio is my esteemed and lovely wife. Uh uh Dr. Tolinsky. Uh Court, do you want to give like a little bit of a a background on who you are and you know what you're doing? I'm a licensed clinical and educational psychologist and I work mostly with kids, but I've been on here a few times and I'm always happy to share my knowledge and thoughts with you all. >> Yeah, it's always uh great to have Courtney on because I mean she's even selling herself short here. She's a a doctor of psychology, right? So your education is >> Did I say that? >> No, but I'm saying like you're not you're not just like just working with kids or whatever. you have, you know, deep expertise and, uh, it's always great to be able to bring someone on to talk about things that honestly Wes and I are not equipped to handle. Uh, I'll just say that. So, we have some questions from the audience. Uh, we're going to read them all anonymously. Um, so if you submitted, then the the questions will be anonymous and we're just going to kind of dig into this almost like a potluck episode and just talk through some mental health questions. um get Courtney's uh feedback and ideas and um utilize her expertise here. This is really funny. I don't never recorded with another person at this desk like this. So, forgive us if we're like shuffling around around here. Courtney said she's not going to shuffle, but I feel like I'm going to shuffle. >> Oh, that's great. All right. Should we should we just get into the first question then? >> Let's get into it. >> All right. The doctor is in. You submitted the questions and Dr. Dr. Tinsy is going to provide the answers. First one is about supporting neurode divergent team members. So as a manager of two neurode divergent devs, autism and ADHD, I find myself spending a lot of time helping them manage stress, communications, and misunderstandings with other teams. They're amazing at their job, but high touch. What tips do you have to better support them while still being fair to the rest of the team? Yeah, so this is a good question and I would imagine that pretty much everyone is working with someone who is neurodeiverse and maybe it's just not apparent to you, but you know it's about 10% of the population roughly speaking. So um chances are one in 10 people is neurodeiverse, right? Um and one of the things that I think is really important to understand is that neurodeiversity is often on a spectrum, right? We talk about like autism being on a spectrum and I think everyone's really like comfortable and familiar with that, but ADHD is kind of also on a spectrum too in terms of like its severity and how it shows up. Um, and it's important to consider that not everyone with autism or ADHD is the same, right? There's still unique people with um unique strengths and challenges, but it's on a spectrum. >> I I guess it it took me a long time to understand my ADHD, right? But even in different people or like most people experience it or so for me that makes sense and I never considered that. I always like growing up I always thought it was like a switch. You got it or you you don't. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I don't think a lot of people understand that. They think oh everyone with ADHD is hyperactive and they can't control themselves. But it's just not true. Right. Some people with ADHD have the inattentive type where they struggle more with organization and which we'll talk about executive functioning skills or time management and it's not obvious on the surface or like just looking at them but as you work with them you see like oh this person needs like a lot more structure and support than other people right so that might be someone that's struggling um or neurodeiverse >> so so how do you support uh those those people at work >> I guess the biggest thing um is to provide structure, right? As much as possible. So if you're giving like a big project that has like a ton of deadlines, maybe you're shortening those. So you're giving like really explicit instructions. If you're emailing them requests, the emails are not like paragraphs long, right? They're like to the point, couple of sentences, not a lot of like not a lot. I'm laughing because I literally have on my website, if you're going to contact me, please give me bullet points of very clear things that you want from me because I'm not going to read this huge book. So, sorry. Go ahead. >> Yeah. Right. Right. And I I think a lot of people respond to that anyway, like if it needs to be more than a couple of sentences is probably worth having a conversation and not sending it over email, right? So, keeping that in mind for everyone. But um yeah, just breaking things down, having like if again if there are deadlines and this person has a hard time meeting their deadlines, maybe having a conversation, you know, pushing their deadlines up a little bit. But I think the big thing is talking to them and seeing, you know, what works best for them because people usually know like by the time you're an adult, you have enough like lived experience to understand what's helpful for you and what's not. And let's not just assume like because they are neurodeiverse that they need support. They might not. Like a lot of intelligent people who are neurodeiverse find workarounds and strategies that help them. Um but having a conversation and asking, you know, what types of feedback do you respond to the best? >> Um what types of mentors or leaders do you respect the most? Like what's been most helpful for you in your previous jobs? Um what would you like to see from me? you know, asking those questions and being open and honest, I think can have you both be like at the same um communication level and have like a better understanding of each other. The other thing that I really like is having if you are like the boss of a team, um having open office hours if you can. So, just having like a dedicated time on your calendar where you're available whether that's virtual or in person. And so maybe it's like an hour every week on Thursday. I'm available if you want to book this time and talk to me and let them know like, hey, if you're struggling or you want to have like a one-on-one, like use this time and book it, you know? So, I think being available, letting your team know that you care and having like those open and honest conversations about what would be helpful for them is usually best. as someone who u being you, as somebody who regularly manages somebody with ADHD, being me, what are some things that you've like put in place in our relationship and marriage, I guess, that like you've found helped me in my my issues? Well, th this is tough and and I totally empathize with whoever wrote this question, whoever is, you know, managing other people, you know, who have neurodeiversity because I I do understand it is a lot more work, but there's also a lot of pluses with it, too. So, when you are neurodeiverse, you tend to be more creative because your brain is not following the common pathways or like roads, so to speak, that most people are, right? So because your brain is following different pathways and I'm being like really like simplistic here, it lends itself to creativity, right? And that's probably why there's so many people who are neurodeiverse in like engineering and you know tech, etc. But it is it's very tough because when you have like we'll just take ADHD and most people with autism end up having ADHD too. you're not interested like generally speaking in time management and if there's like a task that you really don't want to do, it's really hard to motivate yourself or to like get it done in a timely manner, right? There's like that avoidance of tasks that are like not engaging or just seem like too much. And and we have a son who has ADHD as well. So, you know, I I understand this on like many different levels, but it's really hard. And you can see just like at an 8-year-old level, like how hard it is to like do tasks like clean your room. Like he doesn't want to do that. >> I mean, what what kids do though, but sure. But still, like it is different. It is different with him than >> it's like a big meltdown and like, "Oh my gosh, this is the end of the world." Like, >> it's the biggest deal ever. >> It's not a bummer. It is a catastrophe. pick up 10 things on the floor like this is what we're talking about here. But to him it's like a mountain, right? Because he doesn't want to do it and it just seems >> difficult, you know? So that's why you have to like really break tasks down for you. >> I just stay on top of our deadlines. So I tell people like you need to email me. Like don't email him because he's busy. Emails sometimes get lost. >> Yeah. The things get lost. I think the worst things for me are scheduling. >> Yeah. >> Scheduling and deadlines. Yeah. Those are the in in holidays. I don't I'm not good at >> holiday. Well, that's a different name. >> No, it's not it's not it's not actually like doing things for holidays. I'm good at that, but like knowing what day they are. I'm asking like 800 times. >> So, but that goes along with the planning and events. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know when anything is. And I I super rely on our calendar, which >> we we've had to do pretty intensely. >> Yeah. Me, too. Like like the my wife will just be like, "Yeah, it's every Tuesday you have ballet." And I was like, I will never remember that until it's in the calendar, you know? Like, I need the system to to see it because I there's no chance I'm going to ever remember that without looking. I look at the calendar every single day. I have it on my watch sometime. You can probably see it when sometimes when we're recording, if people have paused and zoomed in to my watch sometimes, but it'll show exactly what's what's coming up next. >> Yeah. So if if someone is like chronically unreliable with that, like maybe stepping in and taking over that responsibility or just finding tools that can help them and you could probably speak better like what tools do you use for work performance? >> Uh you know, mostly I I live and die by uh my to-do list, which I I have to be completely on. Everything I do goes in that list and I check it off and I I it's like the number one tool I use. I use Tweak.so. We've talked about on the show numerous times. And then uh for doing tasks, I need my inbox and my email to be clean at all times. And everything that is in my inbox is something that I have to do. It is essentially another to-do for me. Otherwise, if stuff just stays in there, I never do it. Um so I'll use snoozing so that way like the email goes away and then comes back on a specific date when I it's like I know that I can handle it or whatever because that's the one thing I hate about uh text messages. I have a friend I'm working with who insists on text messaging me all of the to-dos and all this stuff and I've said, "Please email, man." Because in text message land, they go into the thing, I see it, and then I forget about it. It's gone. It's out of my brain. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I don't know why they haven't invented that, the reminder for the text. >> Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. The snooze it later. That would be would be kind of nice. I don't need another system though. That's that's the thing is having the system in place is nice. I I use things as a to-do app as well, and I'll often just dump everything that needs to be done in there, and then I'll sort of bubble them up and down, like reorder them based on like excitement and energy is really important, but also how much something is like making me anxious cuz I often find if I put that like the anxious thing at the first thing, you do that and you go, >> that only took three minutes. Why have I been putting this off for for 3 weeks? And then you get the get the momentum and the ball rolling and everything is a little bit better. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It's often the anticipation of the thing you don't want to do, right? The anticipation and then the putting it off. And and I like the concept. I think we've talked about this here of the eat that frog. Yeah. >> Just like you're saying, do the biggest or least preferred thing first. Just get it over with. >> I like that. So tips are systems in place. U communicate. let them know, you know, that you're available, office hours, those types of things. But, um, let them know that you're willing to work within however works best for them and, uh, set up systems, right? >> Yeah. >> Cool. All right. Uh, next question. I was diagnosed with ADHD as an adult. Should I tell my employer? What if they don't understand or still carry a stigma? I had no idea. I I have no idea when I read this, being like a manager, I have no idea what the answer to this would be. >> Oh, really? Yeah. >> Yeah. I I was thinking that and like maybe I'll add on to this as well is like if you have a coworker, you can't just be like, "Hey, you got autism?" That's not something you you just go and ask. Like how do you navigate that? >> Yeah. So, you know, obviously you don't need to tell your employer. You know, there's lots of like legal regulations around this, right? you don't you're not required to tell your employer that you have any type of like um neurodeiverse learning profile or disability, right? Um if you feel like like you have a close relationship with your boss or your employer and you want to disclose that because you feel like that information would be helpful for them and they can like respond to it, respect it and work with you in like a collaborative and empathetic way, then I think maybe you know telling them could be okay. if you feel like the need to do that um for those reasons, but you certainly don't have to. And and what I like to do is just talk about, you know, your strengths and challenges just kind of globally, right? Because everyone has strengths and challenges. You know, I don't have ADHD, but I have things that are harder for me, right? And it could be helpful for an employer to know those things, you know, but I don't necessarily have to put a label on it. But I think the label is more for you to understand and to give you like identity and support um and an explanation as well as to give you access to like resources like medication and therapy and things like that, right? The label is helpful for those tools. Um it can be helpful for other people to know, but it's not a requirement. I think it's like a very personal thing. So, what you could say is, you know, if you're having trouble with time management and organization, you could say like, I'm really creative and I'm really great at like going deep on things that I'm really passionate about, but it's much harder for me to stay on task or to meet my deadlines, you know? So, just talking about your strengths and challenges in more of like a global way rather than like I have ADHD and I can't focus, right? because not only it frames it in a positive light but it also gives like direct tools and support to help your employer understand you rather than I have this thing >> right >> yeah that I it's funny as a as a manager and somebody with ADHD I would say like it would be helpful for me to know but in the same regard I wouldn't expect everybody to feel >> comfortable but you also have a small team >> right and you're very close with >> and you understand you understand I'm sure there's a lot of managers are being like uh so you're just you're taking speed all day like yeah right >> you know just just put your head down and do the work you know I guarantee there's just as many managers that think that way so >> I agree with with Courtney it's just like talking about how you work best is is probably most important >> yeah and if you suspect that like a teammate has a has ASD or ADHD, I would not call them out on that, right? But you can talk about it in that same framework like, "Hey man, I've noticed like you're you love to talk about things that you're really interested in or you have such deep knowledge about CSS and I don't know if you're trying to give constructive feedback than maybe you know, but it's harder for you in like team meetings to talk about things that are going wrong or whatever, like if you're trying to go that approach, but use that same type of framework rather than like >> are you autistic, right?" because you don't know like how people feel about it. Do they even know that they're on the spectrum or they are neurodeiverse? Um, and then there's so many different ways that people if they do have autism that they own that or speak about it. So, it is it's such a spectrum in that regard, too. And it's probably safest and most helpful to just talk about like strengths and challenges more globally. >> Yeah. I remember I was having a lot of trouble connecting with a teammate at one of the first jobs I had back when I was in my early 20s and I was telling Courtney about it and she's like, "He's he's probably autistic just based on, you know, what I was explaining about how he behaved around me." Um, and then she said, "Well, find out like one of his like mutual interests and connect with him deeply on that mutual interest." And instead of like doing anything other than that, I just started talking about the thing he liked. And then like next thing you know, he's he's my buddy, you know? And it was like, oh, I just needed to understand that a little bit more. But thankfully, I had you. Otherwise, I would have been like, "This guy's such a a jerk to me. I don't understand why." And it's cuz I was like messing up his systems and like uh the way he liked to work. >> What are the other other tells? You know, you're working in a job. Besides, you react. Like, how do you know someone might have autism? I'm just joking. >> I'm I'm smiling. I don't get the joke, but I'm smiling cuz you guys are smiling. >> It's It's a It's a JavaScript framework that I I use that Scott hates. >> Oh, I see. It's a very like comprehensive process. I do these evaluations, so I'm very skilled at like looking for the markers, but it is a very comprehensive process, and I don't think like anyone off the street should like certainly be diagnosing people, right? And that's like a big movement I see with like teenagers and young adults. >> Oh yeah. Diagnosing themselves. >> Yes. I get a lot of young girls who are like coming to me and they're like, I think I'm autistic. And it's like as we do more digging, it's like, well, no, you're just really anxious and you're looking for something else. And so many things can mirror autism, too, like anxiety can, ADHD. So, you do have to be careful with that. Um, but just generally speaking, things that you're looking for are social and communication challenges, right? So, difficulties with like having good friendships or like having like a back and forth in conversations. A lot of times it's centered around like what they want to talk about or what their interests are. And it's hard to do like that perspective taking of what might someone else want to talk about or I should ask them about their day. Right? Again, this is on a spectrum, but um those things are challenging. Um being able to like pick up on social cues and a lot of it's like subtleties, like if someone's being sarcastic, they might interpret that as like either they totally missed it or they've gone like the other extreme sometimes, like, oh, they're being a jerk or I'm going to take it literally, >> right? So, a lot of kids get like teased or picked on. Um because they're taking some of these things literally, right? And then you know they're a target for bullying. I hit that all the time, >> especially on like on social. I know. I like I hit this on social media all the time where like I have jokes and sarcasm and like like like very niche jokes and a lot of times people don't get them at all and they get very upset and you have the at first I was like this person is being a jerk but then you realize oh they probably aren't understanding the sarcasm behind all of that and then it's also compounded when things are >> people don't necessarily have English as their first language. >> Oh yeah definitely. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of nuance in like sarcasm and communication that neurotypical people tend to take for granted, right? Because you're not sitting down and teaching people like this is how you look at someone in the eye when you talk. This is how you use gestures. You know, those things are not taught. They're modeled, right? So, we we do them and then kids pick up on them over time, but kids on the spectrum are not necessarily like picking up on those things. So, it's harder for them to develop those skills and they have their own like pathway that they're following. So using gestures, um being able to like point to things or like connect other people to like where they want to go, like look at that over there. Like as an adult, like you pick up on that, but you see delays in that for kids. Um and maybe sometimes they're overrelying on explaining things verbally, but not using like all these hand gestures like I'm using um to help with their communication. So sometimes you see like challenges there. And then when they were kids, a lot of times kids um skip over like the imaginative play and they just go like straight into like roleplaying like scenes that they've seen in movies or like they play like the same thing over and over again or like with parts of things. So there's like components of like imagination and like that modeling piece that are missed. Um, but generally you're seeing I think in adults difficulties with perspective taking the kind of like the the awkwardness like physically and maybe um verbally as well as like changes in like tone of voice and things like that. And then the other piece of it is having like restricted interests or like repetitive behaviors. So things like um having like really narrow interests that you have like an extreme depth of knowledge about or being like really rigid and like only wanting to do things like a certain way or your way or having trouble just like adapting and being flexible when things change. Um, I think those are the biggest things that you see in adults as well as like sensory sensitivities. And sometimes for adults that can be like being overstimulated and like crowded or loud or busy environments. Um, and needing like time away to themselves or getting like overly agitated and upset. So, those are like tells that you might see. And people that have ADHD often struggle with some of these. >> Yeah, I was going to say there's so many overlaps cuz I have like weird sensory stuff. Yes. Like I definitely >> Yeah, misophonia. If people are eating on a podcast, I like shut it off immediately. But like too many loud noises over time like can definitely get me like really out of sorts. Yeah, it's interesting. It is. The more I learn is like the the collection of different things that you know I experience, they're all connected in different ways and like you said on a spectrum of various aspects here. This person wrote in saying, "I suspect I have ADHD and dyslexia in the US. What is the best way to seek a formal diagnosis and how do I talk to a doctor without being dismissed?" >> Yeah, I I think, you know, we just talked about like the overdiagnosing phenomenon that I'm seeing and I do think that's present. Um, but I also think it's important to trust your gut and your instincts. If you feel like something's wrong, then it's worth having a conversation about. Um, and I know like for you having the diagnosis was like life-changing. >> Yeah. Yeah. I didn't I didn't get diagnosed until I was what, like 35 or something. >> Yeah. Recently. >> Yeah. Which I think we all knew. Uh but I I you know, especially dyslexia. The only person who clocked dyslexia for me was a teacher in high school. I had one teacher being like, "Hey, have you ever gotten tested for dyslexia?" Because um I've noticed these patterns in all of the the papers you've turned in. And at that point, I was just like, "No, I don't I don't I'm not dyslexic." And I didn't know nothing about any of this stuff, so I just blew it off. Um, and sure enough, like, you know, over the course of time, it's like you understand more and more. But through understanding, you know, myself through Courtney, like just amount of things in life that have been present for me the entire time, whether that was in school or beyond. Um, and just clear how based on the uh the way that I act in in general that uh we knew that I I was probably, you know, somebody who had ADHD. And so it was like, okay, well, now let's get a diagnosis because then maybe we can look into, you know, augmenting that with medication and see um how that can can help me uh if it can. >> And what did we do? We found a psychiatrist. But how? Yeah. >> Yeah. So, I I think I mean you could go a couple of different routes in the US and Wes, I'd love to hear what happens in Canada, too, but you could talk to your primary care physician and say, "Hey, I'm wondering if I have this was ADHD and dyslexia. So, I'm wondering if I have ADHD. I'd love to see someone or get a referral to be tested for that." And sometimes like the primary care can handle it there if they have a good understanding of ADHD, but usually they're referring you to a psychiatrist because they have more in-depth knowledge of ADHD. The psychiatrist can't diagnose dyslexia necessarily. Um, for that you would need to see a psychologist. So, someone like me, you would go through like psychology today or ask your primary care for a referral for a psychologist who does adult testing and specializes in ADHD and dyslexia. Um, and it it's usually out of pocket. Um, some places do take insurance. Um, but it ranges, you know, anywhere from like 1500 up. What they do is they will put you through a series of tests. A lot of times they'll do like an IQ test. They'll look at your academic skills and then they'll look more specifically at skills that apply to reading. So like phonological processing and oral reading. So they'll do all that testing. Um, and then for ADHD, they sometimes they'll ask for like old child report cards because you have to show that it's been present since or before the age of 12. So that's really important, too. It's not like you've lived your life and all of a sudden at 21 you have ADHD. Something else is going on, right? Whether you're anxious, you've had trauma, >> you know, you've spent too much time with 50 tabs, you know, whatever it is. um >> or or what currently I have uh six AI agents working uh simultaneously. Is that a a problem here? Um can we share the results of my IQ test because I did have >> you did my IQ test. >> I don't have your results. I just know like generally he like Wes he did not have an actual IQ because he's so like all over the place like this is very fitting for him but his visual spatial skills. So, like if you imagine Tetris or like >> puzzles, right? Putting together things. We're like in the 98th percentile. So, this dude can like bag groceries like you've never seen. >> I can pack the trunk. Let's just say that. Yeah. >> Configure. I just throw stuff in the bag. He's got it down. But his memory is terrible. >> The worst. >> Terrible. >> So, so you don't have an IQ at all? Like your undefined IQ? >> Yeah. Because because you have to show there has to be this is getting technical but like a certain amount of point difference. It's like in the range of 25 points something like that between like your highest and lowest score and his was like a 50 point difference. So So an IQ would be an average of extremes. So therefore it wouldn't be valid. I think that was very present in my ACT scores as well when I got like a, you know, high 30s on math and did well on science, but got low low numbers on the English and reading parts. >> Yeah. And well, often when you see that split, again, this is getting technical, but that's a sign to me of like a neurodeiverse learning profile, whether it's a learning disability, ADHD, or both. And that clearly applies for you. But um getting back to that other question, so you you'll want to do like a thorough evaluation with a psychiatrist or a psychologist. Um especially if you're wondering about both. Um and then from there, you know, you can take that information and consider either therapy for like ADHD or um medication, which I know has been helpful. >> And if you want to see all of the errors in your application, you'll want to check out Sentry at centry.io/ io slintax. You don't want a production application out there that well you have no visibility into in case something is blowing up and you might not even know it. So head on over to centry.io/sax. Again, we've been using this tool for a long time and it totally rules. All right. >> Yeah, I I'm I'm on I'm on uh ADHD meds as of like a year and a half ago. And for me personally, it has been life-changing in regards to accomplishing tasks because I wouldn't be able to like sit down and accomplish a task. I'm uh on my phone. I'm over here. I'm over here. I'm over here. I'm doing this. I'm standing up. Whatever. >> And it it like has allowed me to really dial in on things for sure. Um and I was a little unsure about it, but it it like it was my choice and I I made that choice. And man, it has greatly improved my life. So >> yeah. And what it also helps with is emotion regulation too. I don't think people like understand like the correlation between like getting like overly angry or overly worried or sad that comes with these neurodeiverse learning profiles like ADHD or um autism um where you can go from like 0 to 60 really quickly. Not everyone does this, but it does happen and you just get overly upset or overly mad. medication helps to titrate that down. Yeah. >> Right. And you can't like cope with it because it just kind of like takes over that like prefrontal cortex which like up here is like the main area that's affected by ADHD. It's kind of like all consuming and it's harder for you to like deal with life's challenges and problems. So medication can be one tool to help with that. >> Yeah. >> Or mindfulness, which I keep trying to get you to do and he's >> mindfulness. Come on. Who's got time for mindfulness? >> What does mindfulness look like? >> It's thinking about something kind of like relaxing your brain and you can do like a guided meditation or a visualization. So, I use like Headspace or Calm. Those are two really popular apps where like a calm voice will walk you through like a meditation and really you're just trying to focus on the present and mostly your breathing, right? So you can do different things like progressive muscle relaxation where you're like tightening and loosening like different parts of your body at a time, but it's really like being focused and if you catch your brain like going somewhere else and thinking about something else, then you just like bring it back to center and it's hard because everyone's brain goes this way and it's it's just that concept of like actively treating your brain to stay present. >> Yeah. Cool. >> Did you have to do a computer test for your ADHD diagnosis wise? What? Like like use a word document? >> No, I had to like press a key or something whenever a specific letter flashed on the screen. Oh. >> And I was telling Courtney like I'm a competitive person, so I really wanted >> I really wanted to do a good job on it. Like she asked me how I went. I was like, "This test was so stupid and like I was doing really well on it until about like halfway through and I just like couldn't keep up or I couldn't." And she was just like, "Yeah, that's what the test is for." like that is like >> like >> so that's that's the Connor's continuous performance test and it's designed to be like 14 minutes long and to be frustrating because letters flash at different intervals and sometimes the intervals are long and so you lose interest. So it's looking at like impulsivity or like lack of sustained attention. >> I was getting so mad at it. Yeah. >> Oh yeah. Mine Mine was more just like like questions about how you approach different situations and how I interact with co-workers and and how I what what I have trouble with, right? Like I didn't I didn't take my meds today and I'm just sitting here. I would love to do a like a time lapse of me sitting at my desk a day I'm on meds and not Oh yeah, >> I'll go upstairs like the 30 times and like moving around and and like having all these monitors at once is maybe not a good idea, but >> yeah, it's I'm going to do that. I'm going to do a a time lapse of around boopping around. >> Okay. Uh let's get into the next section here. We have some questions on productivity and that kind of thing. Why do so many developers tie their self-worth to commit history? I'll explain that to you. Or shipped features. How do we build more resilient self-esteem, especially in fields that measure output? Does journaling help? So, uh, commit history is like every time you you're saving and writing code, you commit that code. It's like basically committing it to record. >> It's like your Snapchat score for being a developer. >> Snapchat. What year is this? >> People still use Snapchat? Oh my gosh. You're getting old. You're getting old, Scott. Oh, Snapchat's huge still. >> They do. The teens do still Snapchat. Yeah. >> Insane. >> They do. >> Okay. It's >> true. >> But yeah, everybody in this whole software world put so much worth on shipping, you know, like actually putting make writing code and getting it out there. >> Yeah. So, I I really like this concept of it's called acceptance and commitment therapy. I've been trying to use it just for my own like general well-being, but it's this idea. It's well, it's a therapeutic approach. It includes like mindfulness components along with like values. I'm being really simplistic here again, but I think it's a good idea to have a concept of like what things in life do you value the most? like what describes you and your interests and your motivation for like success or happiness, you know, however you want to define that the most. And you can search for it's it's just act so ACT values and it gives you like a whole list of different values. But you know my values are things like family, um being loyal to my friends, being supportive, just being like kind to others, you know, so I have a good understanding of like what my values are. And anytime that something bothers me, it's helpful to stop and like pull yourself back from it and think like does this like concern align with the things that are most important to me, my values. I in theory if it doesn't, you should let it go. >> Mhm. >> If it does, >> then you want to like problem solve that and work on it, right? So if you're a developer, is is one of your values what would you call this like productivity or work output? >> Yeah. Output. Yeah. >> So is that one of your values? And if it is, then you know maybe it is worth thinking about. But if it's not, then you have to let it go because you can't let every little thing like define you and consume your time. It burns you out and it wears you out, you know. So it's helpful to have that understanding. Of course, things like journaling can help, but I think, you know, having resilient self-esteem, um, and having like that act mindset can be really helpful to like think about, does this align with the life that I see for myself and my values? Does it not? Right? And there's a couple ways you can like let it go. So they have this concept of like it's a visualization component of maybe you put the word or the thing that you're imagining on a boat and it goes down a stream and like off in the distance and you can no longer see it and it's gone, right? You could like crumple it up, throw it in the trash, you could set it on fire, ideally not something like dramatic or like angerinducing. Or we've talked about you can give it like a name. Yeah. like some kind of name that's like, "Oh, that's just like Judgy Joe speaking to me, right? I'm gonna like ignore him and let it go." Right? Because you do you have this like inner critic or like voice in your head that's always is trying to protect you from danger, right? And danger can be anything like physical or like perceived danger and hits to your self-esteem or or being vulnerable, those types of things like emotional damage is dangerous, right? And so your ego, your inner critic is always trying to protect you from that. It's helpful to externalize it and think about like, is this like my inner critic? Is this something that I actually value or is this not worth my time? Right? And then trying that practice of letting it go. Um, which is hard. And then the third step is being kind to yourself, right? I don't think we do enough self-compassion, like myself included. We can be so hard on ourselves. And maybe Wes, this doesn't apply to you cuz you see time. Nothing phases you, >> but for the rest of us, like being self-compassionate is is so important. Just saying like, "Hey, this thing about productivity, it bothers you because you care about doing a good job at your work, right? You know, it's okay that you're having a hard time and we can try to work on this or we can do better next time or whatever it is, right? But just being kind to yourself and trying to let go of what you can and having a good understanding of what's really important to you and what you should really spend your energy on. >> Yeah. Can I also just say uh just like Instagram or any of the things that people might compare themselves, developers on Twitter are lying. They are lying to you about how much they do, what they're doing, you know, their output. People are doing that for engagement. And so like comparing yourselves to people who are just like bragging about the stuff they accomplish or whatever like it's it's hard to do that because you do see so much of it like people output all and there's obviously there's there's 10x they call them 10x developers out there who are doing uh 10 times the work but like the reality is is most people are just doing a good job at their job and like if that's if that's what you like want to be doing like that's that's a okay. Yeah. >> Yeah. That's helpful to know. >> Yeah. Don't fall for the engagement bait. >> Next question we have here is, "Is overtime ever worth it? I worked overtime on a government project that could literally save lives. I still feel guilt over lost time with my family. Is there ever such thing as justified overwork?" >> I want to hear from you, too, because I mean, I have been in professions where I'm like working overtime, but never to like save lives. Like, so I'm >> You're closer to saving lives than we are. I'll say that. >> Oh man, are you kidding? The one wrong use effect could end it for somebody. So don't don't sell yourself short there, Scott. I I have thoughts on this. I think that there are times in your life and in your career where >> going absolutely nuts, going allin, working like weekends, working evenings, just being consumed by it. I think that that is fine. And I've had several times in my career where I either just wanted I couldn't peel myself away from it or I simply just like I was just learning so much and I had so much work to do. Those are very formative times in your career. And I think that it's it's good to have those things at some point that it is not good to have that absolutely all the time, right? Like if you look go look at my commit history. I am very proud that my gimmit history has a blank Sunday and a blank Saturday. Right. And then then I have solid green in the middle because I'm an absolute machine uh coding. Right. So Scott's showing his his git commit history right here as well. It's a 3D printed git commit history. And you will see on this thing so many Saturdays and Sundays completely nothing. There's a nice little couple of uh valleys in here where I took a week off here and there. So, yes, there are some days that are high, but uh yeah, beautiful, not every day. >> Somebody gave me a mug with my commit history on it once, and it you can clearly see where one of my children was born, and I'm I'm really proud of that that I I stopped and took time off for that. >> So, like, yeah, I I think is overtime ever worth it? Absolutely. Especially for saving lives, but simply if you're just trying to get better at your career, there are times in your career where you can go absolutely wholehog. Um, and and you might look back at that and be like, good. Like, you shouldn't have these hard and fast rules of like I need to always spend this time working and always spend this time with my family, which is like a rule that I have, right? Like 9 to5 I I code. Sometimes I dip outside of it. Sometimes I go to conferences and whatnot, but that's just where I am in my in my life. When I was young, uh, I was coding freaking 12 hours a day, working 10 to 10 and just just going whole hog on it. And that was I look back at that very fond time in my life in my career as well. >> Yeah, there was times that going wholehog uh was advantageous for me as well. like uh we had somebody like get let go because they had a bad review and then we had to pick up their slack and there was executives and a coworker and I spent like two full days like like 48 hours straight of like rebuilding this project from scratch because there was uh Ford Motor Company executives coming in to see it and like we knocked it out of the park and because of that it basically made us like safe for the rest of like our employment there. I was like, "All right, you guys saved the day." And because of that, so like very worth it in my mind to like absolutely destroy yourself for that that period of time to get that work done. But when I had Level Up Tutorials as my full business, it was like happening all the time. It was it was crushing me. Yeah. >> Um so since doing Syntax full-time, it's been nice to be able to shut it off um and not have to worry about that like is the business going to collapse while you are away, >> right? Yeah. I think it's so helpful to have like the boundaries and the time that you're dedicated to work as you said Wes like being in a flow state obviously can be helpful advantageous provide like life satisfaction and things like that but you can't be in a state of like constant overwork forever like that will lead to burnout and other things like depression and you'll see deterioration of like you know your family you know dynamic and your hobbies and just your whole life quality. So, it is it's important to like really think about like how long can I sustain this for and then like at what point do I need to like reevaluate and reconsider what I'm doing. >> Um, I have a question for you and this is something that's a topic that a lot of people talk about and I just want to get your thoughts on it. >> Um, AI as a mental health tool. How do you feel about using LLM like chat GBT as me mental health support or diagnostics like as a professional? >> Yeah, I I would imagine we use it in a similar way that you all use it. Like so we as therapists, diagnosticians, whomever, we're using it as like a guide or you know they tell us to use the word co-pilot, you know, to doublech checkck your work, reconsider things that like maybe you hadn't or you know other ideas, solutions, etc. But never in replace of the work that you're doing. It just helps you to become like a better therapist and it frees up things that would take a lot of time and nuance and allows you to do other more important work like spending time with clients and >> developing connections >> special models or tools, right, that have like uh HIPPA or whatever. I don't know. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, you're not using Chad GP. >> Yeah. That's like a whole industry, Wes, that we don't know anything about. Yeah. I was on a call this morning with some folks from Google talking about like local models and I was like like healthcare and law are like two areas that are interesting there. >> Yeah. >> So like this is a different show and >> bastion. >> Yeah. >> It's I don't think it's as great as chat GPT obviously doesn't have as much training and >> I don't know how that works as you probably set your house on fire. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I I think it's good as a tool, but it can't ever replace the need for human connection, right? And that's like the whole thing in therapy. That's why you go, right? Is to have human connection is to have compassion from another trained human being who can like understand and provide support and empathy, who can pick up on like the things that you're not saying. like chat GPT, you're typing in a prompt, but >> therapists are looking for things that like you're not disclosing, right? They're gently pulling it out of you. You're guiding the ship, but they're steering it, right, and helping you to get to where you need to be and also like challenging you on the things that maybe you don't want to do or the areas you don't want to go. Um, because that's where the growth and development happens. And Chad GBT is not doing that, right? It's a people pleaser. I can see how that would be hard for you. It's very agreeable. >> Yes, exactly. >> It's agreeable for sure. And like the number one pro, not number one problem, like the meme right now in the web developer space is that if it gets something wrong and you tell it like no, you got that wrong or whatever, it goes, you're absolutely right. And no matter what you say, even if you're providing it like fake information or whatever, it's always respond like, "Oh, well, you're absolutely right." So like it is going to like ultimately confirm biases and like Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I I just think we need human connection more than ever and that's just going to continue more and more as we rely more on AI and how that transforms throughout life. But we are social creatures and you need that for happiness and life satisfaction. >> Yeah. And you just sent me something on Instagram yesterday that was like talking about in the age of AI like human will become more valuable because the technology has become uh so available and cheaper and ubiquitous or whatever that like the value of human will rise and like that goes a lot like uh on Monday the episode that I recorded with Dr. for Sarah Bird. She said her sick pick was Japanese pottery because it was imperfect and like she works so much with AI that like imperfection was like really charming to her in that way. So >> yeah, I've been thinking about that a lot. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It's very poignant. >> Okay. So in that same regard like AI topic, my wife is a nurse studying to be a therapist. With AI's rise, will we need more therapists or fewer? It's like more or fewer. What's the future of mental health care in an AI world? >> Oh man, some of the code that I have to fix that this thing kicked out. I think we're going to need more therapists. >> Yeah, it's it is funny to think about like the uh parallels here between developers and stuff. Yeah. >> Yeah, I'm sure it's similar, but I mean I I think the answer is similar to what we just talked about. You know, I think we'll need more. I think there is a loneliness epidemic. I think that's been identified at least in the United States. And I just see that getting worse, especially as we rely on more virtual tools, you know, for things like support. So, I think, you know, good people are always needed in professions and especially in a like human driven profession. I don't see that going away. And who knows, you know, what it will look like over time or how AI will develop, if it will have a face and a persona. I don't know. But it's just the feeling of like coldness and there's like a lack of soul and like true empathy. Um I don't see that ever replacing like an actual connection with like a a therapist who understands you and is trained. So I would encourage her to still go for that. >> Yeah, it is interesting. I think once you have the curtain pulled back in how LLMs work, I think that removes a lot of the I could use this as a tool to help my mental health cuz like if you know like how it's producing the text that it's giving you like >> it's not like it doesn't have all the answers, you know, it's not like >> it's a prediction machine. Yeah. >> Yeah. It's it's math. Like it's it's mathematically trying to guess what the next word will be given the inputs. It's a pure function, which is wild. And it's not just this magic box. >> It is wild. But I don't think like I didn't understand how it worked. >> Yeah. >> And most people don't. >> You all do, but most people don't. And I can see you falling >> prey to like that trap of relying on it as >> as a girlfriend or like a therapist or whatever. And that's a whole another conversation. But, you know, I do think having like an understanding of how the tech works is really helpful. Yeah, that there's a podcast from Wondery Flesh and Code that talks about a AI uh like girlfriend or boyfriend app and it is like man it's a wild podcast to listen to but also like >> they changed the model ever so slightly and everybody was having like panic attacks and there were people having like real mental health crisis because like my wife in some cases is now a completely different person overnight and it's like >> oh man go yeah It's a It's a tough listen, but uh one that it's hard to stick your head in the sand about these days, I guess. Yeah. >> All right, we got one more question here. This is from a professional athlete. As a developer who's a pro alete, I'm scared of burnout, but find it impossible to mentally shut down. I've tried all the standard tricks, nothing works. What now? So, this this person is a developer and a pro alete. What's interesting is that like I have seen a number of pro aletes recently in the news for being web developers. So if you're out there and you you're actually a pro alete in one of the major leagues, >> hit us up. I want to I want to hear about that. >> But let's talk about the burnout piece. How do you mentally shut down? Like how do how do you how do you handle that? Yeah, I I can imagine it's hard because you probably have like adrenaline like you know more frequently going through your body. >> Um and it is it's hard if that has escalated to bring that back down. Um and I don't know like what type of developer they are but don't you have like periods of like adrenaline or frustration or >> let me tell you let me tell you when I'm getting when I'm deep into solving a problem >> Yeah. like and I have not solved that problem. I find it so hard to go to sleep. I'm like so like >> so consumed by it. Yeah, >> consumed by it. I was having an issue, Wes, where like a URL uh in a CloudFlare worker wasn't updating and I'm like I'm going through my ENV variables. They're all set correctly. I'm going through my codebase. There's no mention of this string of this U. I'm where is this being stuck? I've cleared the caches and I'm like rebuilt and redeployed like eight times and I was just like this is something I can solve. Uh this is a stupid bug. Like where is this coming from? And I couldn't I was so angry about it. I I just could not fall asleep. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. So it seems like there's a lot of parallels there. I personally think having like a cool down or calm down routine at the end of the day just signals to your brain like it's time to relax and shut off like work mode. Um, >> how do you enforce that? Because I that's what I can't do. Yeah. >> Well, it's it's hard. I mean, you have to be like diligent. >> Can somebody else force that for me? Yeah. >> So, you know, I have friends that have like timers like just a standard timer on their phone for like every little thing and there's a text reminder on there. So, at 7:00 it will ring and say like wind down time or whatever it is, you know. So, you could have something as simple as that. snooze. >> Well, then that's your choice, you know, and nothing's going to change. >> You got to actually work at this stuff. Like, it's what it can't just be automated. >> You get the diagnosis, but then like >> if you want to get better, you got to put in the time, right? And like I'm not just saying this to Scott, but like I think sometimes people just use their diagnosis as an excuse um for not being able to do things. And like you you still have to work to get better in life at everything. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Right. Right. It's helpful to know how to change, but it's not going to actually make you change. Having a label. Yeah. So, doing things like taking a hot bath with like Epsom salt. I know you like doing that. >> Big fan of the hot bath with Epsom salt. >> I could imagine if you're a pro athlete, too. Like >> that would help calm your body, your muscles, and just help you relax. Doing like all the standard You're better at this than I am. Like >> the phone the what is it? The dark mode on your phone. >> Yeah. the like the sepia mode or whatever. CJ turns his phone to be black and white, which makes him want to use it less, >> which I think that's pretty uh I think that's a pretty cool idea. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. If if I was rich, I would put a a sauna in our house and I would go relax in the sauna. Yes. >> Yeah. I want I want to do that so bad. We have a spa in our house that would be perfect for a sauna. And I've been watching sauna YouTube videos. Uh >> you know what? We have a we have a bathroom in the basement that does nobody's ever using. No one's ever using it. So, it's already kind of like got plunging or whatever. >> Steam shower maybe in there. >> Yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> We could just turn that into a sauna. >> Moisture. It's hard. >> Yeah. Right. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. But doing things like a bath, stretching, actively decompressing, listening to calm music, maybe putting your electronics away when you can't access them. I know that's hard for you. >> I mean, I think they're like classic explanations for a reason, right? Classic tools for a reason because they work. >> That's the hard part about are you actually using them? >> Hard things is that a lot of times there's no shortcuts, >> you know, with stuff. Yeah. >> Right. Yeah. So for you, stretching the sauna or the bath, doing yoga, doing things that don't require a screen, like reading a book, >> going to dance or hitting the gym. Yeah, >> that's a really important one is like don't just replace it with things because a lot of times the answers to like doing these things is don't do X, Y, and Z. But like sometimes the answer is like well if you if you pick up salsa dancing you're not going to be on your phone as much or you know like just replace it go to the gym or whatever. >> I think going to the gym is for me like >> at night >> uh not like necessarily at night but I like to go to the gym after work and that can that can be the bridge for me that's like pulls me away from my computer. That is of course if I manage to not bring my computer into the gym. Um, >> well, you got to babysit the agents in between sets, >> right? >> Oh. Oh, this is Yeah, it's a problem. >> It's a problem. But yeah, I I like that idea, Wes, of swapping it out for a replacement behavior. I thought this question was for at night. I didn't realize it was >> Oh, I think it is for at night, but yeah. No, no. I'm Yeah. >> Uh, let's head into sick picks and shameless plugs. What do you got for us today? >> Yeah. So, I've been on like a a health kick in the kitchen and I read this article about like microlastics being everywhere and I had no idea like in your tea bags in like obviously plastic containers in like plastic spice containers and I've been like really thinking about that and swapping out some of our kitchen things. So, there's some good um benco glass containers at Costco that I really like >> Tupperware. >> Yes. Yeah. But swapping it out for like a good glass container. We swapped out any like plastic like a utensil like a spatula like the black >> the black plastic ones really bad. Yeah. So we swap that out for metal and then I was like looking at tea bags and spice things. Also we got a really good colander that goes like over the sink and it expands to like the width of your sink. >> It's pretty clutch for like especially if you have kids. I was like washing grapes in there and stuff and then you don't have to like we don't have an island unfortunately so you like carry the colander like over to the other side and water gets everywhere. It's just a pain. So >> the amount of stuff that gets on the floor between the the oven and the sink or whatever it's like outrageous. >> Yeah. It's not great. So we've been thinking more intentionally about like the kitchen, especially with like the holiday season coming up. We're hosting Thanksgiving this year, you know? So just doing those like little swaps. >> Beautiful. I like it. Is there anything you'd like to plug while you're here as well? Do you got anything to plug? >> No. No. >> Nothing to plug. Okay, let's just get that. Cool. Well, thank you uh so much uh Courtney. It's like um I don't know. I talk to you every day, so it's always it's always something easy for me to be like get these answers from you all the time, but I always forget that you know how how amazing it is to be able to you know share this with the audience. So, thank you so much for coming on and sharing your your expertise. And again, folks, if you have any additional questions, drop them in. Uh, she lives with me, so she can come back anytime. >> Beautiful. All right. Thanks again. Peace. >> You have to give us a piece, Courtney. >> Oh, okay. >> Say peace. >> There we go., Mental Health Q&A w/ Dr. Courtney Tolinski, Syntax, 01k6ft53qqqsx9kjgqja28bx8g.