Natural Born SaaS Killers  What up nerds? So, one of the things that we say often around these parts is the software world moves fast. And this week has been a great example of that. On Monday, when I shipped change log news, I covered a tool called Claudebot. That's CL A WDbot. On Tuesday, when we recorded the conversation you're about to hear, it had been renamed to Moltbot. Today, as I master and ship this episode to the world, it's been renamed again to Open Claw. Turns out Moltbot just didn't roll off the tongue. So, you'll hear us struggle to say maltbot a whole bunch in this episode. Just run your brains global find and replace sub routine and hopefully it'll still all make sense. >> Where should we begin? >> Let's start at the start and take it away. >> Okay. >> My name is Simpson Bartholomew J. >> Okay. >> That's just the start of an old Simpsons rap. >> Oh, I love that. Uh >> oh, yeah. If I knew the second going >> better than that, give me the real thing. Is that your best version? >> I'll start from the start and take it away. My name is Simpson Barthol J. >> Okay. >> Uh, I don't remember any of the rest. >> Do you have a a Bart imitation voice? Like, are you like Ariana Grande where she can like imitate >> anybody basically? >> I'm a talentless hack. >> Oh, man. >> I got nothing. Can you? >> You know what? I don't even attempt, man. >> Me neither. That's why I just called myself a hack. >> Well, can I can impress some things, but >> you're very impressive in general. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, when you're impressive, you don't have to be an impersonator. >> Just be yourself. >> That's right. >> And you impress. >> Well, thank you. Well, thank you. >> Well, I was impressed by all that's been going on lately. Have you been impressed? >> You know what? Um, >> goodness gracious. >> It really is an interesting time to be a software developer. I I do have to say it is >> uniquely interesting in in so many ways, you know, just such a a wild world we find ourselves in. One of the things that's been going on is this Mac Mini sale. >> Oh, dang. >> We've been selling Mac minis for Apple. It's not us. It's just developers been buying them because of Claudebot, not to be confused with Claude Code, which I guess was confusing enough that Claudebot was renamed for posterity. Claudebot was spelled C L A W D >> and I think it had to do with him having claws. There's like a whole lobster theme behind this thing. And I think it was like he had claws and so he was a clawed bot and he got very popular >> at which point Peter Steinberger who might be coming on the pod at some point >> trying to make it happen. >> The creator of Cloudbot decided uh to rename everything trademark stuff. I can only assume anthropic said, "Hey, please rename this because at this point, Claude is pretty well established verbally, audibly with anthropic." Right. >> Right. Yeah. >> Different spelling doesn't really matter. When you just say the word claude, everybody thinks about anthropic. So, now it's moltbot. So, Claudebot, molted. And why do we care? Well, because it seems like a pretty cool project and one that has gotten a lot of people excited. I covered it on news this week because uh it'll do a bunch of stuff for you. Now, full confession, I have not set this up. Me not set this up. Gosh darn it. >> It's, you know, the list is long, Jared. >> You got a list of stuff you want to try, don't you? >> AI things to play with, man. >> I know. >> I just can't keep up with the things to play with. Uh I And I want to though. I do want to. So that's my excuse at least. The AI that actually does things apparently. >> That's right. It emails for you. It calendars. It home automates. All from your favorite chat app. So cool lobster theme. And uh people are doing all kinds of crazy stuff with this. >> Not anymore. No more lobster theme. It's gone. It says here clears her inbox, sends emails, manages her calendar, checks in for flights. Now, this is something you've been, you know, upset a little bit about and you can alleg further. >> Don't check in my flights, man. >> All from WhatsApp, Telegram, or any chat app you use. Now, what a good, first of all, amazing copy. Okay? Like, when you make something, describing it because in your brain, you've got it right. You've got all the details. You've got all the things that you're dreaming about for this thing, but then getting it out into a concise word, phrase, sentence, whatever you want to call this, right? >> Yes. >> That's the hard part. That's a beautiful two sentence, this is what it does scenario. So, good job, Peter, on that front. >> In terms of claude, >> it's over with, man. Claude's over. >> CL L A W D. >> Now it's malt. >> Well, now call it malt. Call it multi. Well, you know, we have to we have to go to the past to go to the future, right? You got to be like, "Where'd you come from?" >> I just called it Claudebot in news. And the next day, literally the next day, it got renamed. >> Moltbot. >> Mol. Cuz lobsters mol I think. Is that when they lose their outer shell? >> Yeah, I think so. >> I only know this because of Futurama and Zoberg. Zoberg's always molting. >> Yes. >> That's the only reason I have any idea about lobster anatomy. Otherwise, I'd be clueless. And I I would imagine like any crustation, when you don't have your crustation, you are uh vulnerable to the elements, >> right? You're not crusty. >> Yeah. You need that protective shell from the anthropics of the world. >> Exactly. And now he's protected. >> Now he's protected. Well, nakedly protected. He's molted. >> Right. Well, for what it's worth. I mean, it's just an open source project. So, I mean, how protected can you possibly be? Is it though? >> It is. >> Will it be? >> What do you mean protected or open source? >> Well, it's open source, but will it only be open source? It's just an open source project >> for now. >> For now. >> I mean, when things get this popular, so we should probably say like the reason we're talking about it even though we haven't played with it, is because everyone's talking about it because other people are playing with it. Here's a few choice quotes from developers whom you may respect. Uh, this is from the Keit. I can't remember what his name is, but you know, he's on the internet as the kit and he's a opinioner. He says, "Create your own moltbot. Go in debt in if you have to. I love the idea of this nerdy crab chilling in my attic in my Mac on my Mac Studio. Just giving me just giving me I didn't pre-eread that. I don't really understand what that means at the end, but he's excited. >> He got you, >> you know. Hey, Multi, give me something. And it just gives you stuff, you know. >> Just give me the stuff, you know, whatever I want. Just give it to me. >> Uh, here's LLM Junkie. So, you know, he's showed his cards. That's right. >> Um, but he says, "This is the legit the only agent/model/ whatever you call this I have seen that's actually funny." So, apparently this thing's got a good sense of humor. Demilion says, "A mega corp like anthropic or open could not build this. Literally impossible with how this thing works." Maybe that's speaking to the open source side of it. I don't know. >> LTZ Reno says, "Ah, I was trying to resist and now I can't stop talking and adding things to Moltbot." >> Yeah, it gets addictive. >> I mean, I'm just grabbing quotes because there's so many of them. There's probably honestly >> 300 on this page. >> Well, that's a lot. Well, I mean, if you go to docs docs, not not uh docs, >> docs.mmolt.bot I guess automation might be the maybe just the docs. Just go to the docs. Okay, >> go to the docs. >> No, I'm trying to I'm reading the URL thinking like where am I at here? I just landed here. But like this left sidebar, first of all, it is a well done documentation site thanks to Mint Lefi. That's how you say it. Mintfify. I love Mintify service and open source. I believe you can self-host Mintlify. >> What is Mintify? Like a doc site. >> Mintfy is a SAS soon to be dead if we talk about SAS is dying. We'll see. >> I believe you can self-host Mitlfi, but it is a documentation platform you can have as a service. And I'm pretty sure you can self-host it. Pretty sure. >> Okay. I know that our friends over recent use it because that's how I learned about it because >> Gotcha. >> Our friend Zeno is pretty wellversed in cool tech out there and cool uh I guess soon to be dead sasses. >> Yeah. >> Uh and there'll be we'll get to that if we get to that, but not trying to be negative here. That's the sentiment in the room. My gosh. Uh here in the lefth hand sidebar of this mitfi at docs.mmalt.bot is just a plethora a plethora of things you could do. Everything from like where you can inst you know where you can deploy that. Of course the Mac mini like you mentioned Jared. >> Yeah. >> Docker nyx deploying railway render north flank. Tons of CLI commands in here. So onboarding configuring doctoring dashboarding and installing. Why would you do that? >> Uh skills of course. And then one of my favorites cron. Like who doesn't love a good cron job right >> man? All my cron jobs get five stars. >> That's right. You can also have heartbeats. Not just crrons, but heartbeats. There's a difference. Very well done documentation. A lot. I mean, this is an exemplary example. Isn't that what that means? Exemplary. >> It might be redundant, but that's okay. >> Yeah. Sorry about that. It makes sense to me. Okay. Follow me here. Exemplary example. I'm leaning into you doubled down on it. I'm doubling uh really well done documentation like this. I'm very envious of this level of documentation, which is no surprise given the fanfare reviews when you have docs this good. It's got to be good. So, there you go. No firsthand accounts here. >> Speculation, >> but lots of interesting skills you can install. I don't know. People are doing crazy stuff with this. Go to the website, find out for yourself. You can make it do all kinds of things. I'm still just happy with the coding bots, like just coding for me. I haven't got into like the automate the rest of my life bots quite yet, >> right? >> I fear anything writing my emails, but I also embrace things helping me write emails faster, and so I'm tentatively excited. Uh, I did have a friend who read Change Log News already texted me and said yes, they bought a Mac Mini already because of that and have I set up Claudebot yet now called Moldbot. I was like no. And I just just let everybody know about it. I haven't tried it yet, but I am intrigued. So yeah, >> it's on my list. >> It's on my list. >> I'm going to buy a Mac Mini too, Jared, but it's not because of Clawbot or Moltbot. It's because >> well, >> you just want one. >> Well, you know, honestly, it's, you know, Tim, uh, Techno Tim and I, we just covered this on Friends, uh, most recently. >> Mhm. >> Home Lab 2026 edition. It's fun. Go deep with us. The thing he said was availability. Now, I thought he was going to talk about availability in terms of services. He was talking about hardware. >> Yeah. I mean, like you >> That's what he means. >> Good luck finding RAM, >> right? >> At a price you actually want to afford. Good luck finding GPUs at a price you want to afford. And thankfully the Apple tax hasn't caught up to the bump of the hardware and I assume there's still Mac minis to go around and so you've got this. Now I really wish the Mac Mini was an M5 cuz I hear the M5 is so much faster and maybe that's coming soon. Maybe it's coming summertime end of year. Who knows? >> Mhm. But I really do think that the Mac Mini, given the availability of other hardware, RAM, CPUs, motherboards, you name it, it's all hard to come by. And all you're really trying to do anyway is potentially is get some level of GPU or massive RAM amount to use for inference of some sort. And so if Claudebot or Molt, sorry, I'm going to keep calling that. If Moltbot gosh, it's like saying Zulip get me upset. I just want some inference. I I want it on my machine. Like I want to have a good MacBook Pro, of course, but right, >> you know, I don't want to over overload my main dev machine to do stuff and my creator machine to do stuff. I want a dedicated machine for that. >> And GPUs are hard to come by. And a Mac Mini has pretty much all you need >> in one little package. And it's, you know, thermal density is good. you know, all the, you know, dynamics are good. Um, power consumption is good. It sips power comparative to other solutions. So, I mean, it makes total sense. And I want to run it for N8N or in this case, Moltz, >> but also just to run some transcripts, man. >> Burn through some transcripts. >> Burn them up. So, it's also cheap to get into. I mean, 599 starter price. A lot of people are saying who are buying these are saying actually you can most time when you want a Mac you're like yeah skip the starter version you want to you want to beef that thing up but a lot of people are saying that actually the baseline Mac mini is good enough for a certain use now obviously >> depends on your use but even for running moldbot they're saying that's probably just fine >> I did check the Mac rumors buyer guide and it has been 455 days since the last Mac Mini that's year and a halfish ish, but the average days between releases is 732. So, they're calling that neutral mid-product cycle. Uh, it is the M4 >> and the M5 will probably come out, but not maybe next year, maybe some like late this year perhaps. There's really no saying, but at 600 bucks to get started, they are available as far as I can tell. I mean, my friend just bought one today and they're super small now. I had the previous version, the previous form factor. I mean, they literally look like an Apple TV now in terms of form factor. They're super tiny >> and uh yeah, good computers. So, I understand why people are doing that. >> Well, they also have the ability to have 10 GB Ethernet, >> right? >> One of the fastest SSDs on the market. Uh you could do a lot with even 32 gigs of RAM. I wouldn't buy anything less than that personally. Like, it's the $1,500 model. I only know this because I speced out recently, but not because of this conversation or even Maltbot. Uh gosh, it's not that bad, man. >> What a shame, man, to have to rename something like that. I mean, Claudebot was cool. That sounds cool, but I can get it. You know, it's a it's a trademark and, you know, not an infringement, but a what do they call it actually? Um, let me pull this up real quick. on forbes.com they called it trademark confusion. >> Yeah, >> trademark confusion. And >> which I can see why because when I first saw it I thought is this from Anthropic? And then I saw how it was spelled and I was like no it's not anthropic. But when you just hear claude obviously it's identical sounding. So it does make sense. >> So if you want my recommendation this is what I would buy personally. And if I was going to buy a Mac Mini, it would be between two models, fully speced out, cuz why not? Or what I would consider the base model would be the M4 chip with 10 core CPU, 10 core GPU, and 16 core neural network, 32 gigs of RAM, 1 TB of SSD. And always go 10 GB cuz that's just how you got to do it. That one there is $14.99. Now, I'm not telling you to buy this, but if you do, that's the one I'd buy. That's the one I would buy personally. >> I'm not buying it though. I'm not buying it though. I'm not buying it though. >> Spec out the biggest one and then not buy it. So, can you go more expensive than that? Maybe bigger. Bigger. >> I uh I have a 3090, an RTX 3090 from a while back that is still of good use. Now, the the the power draw is dramatically different. The sound is dramatically different. The architecture and the hardware requirement is dramatically different. And that's kind of fun to play with, but it's done. It's set up. I don't have to play with it anymore. >> Mhm. >> Uh, you know, it's sitting there as part of the Proxim setup. So, I can just spin up a VM and, you know, pass through the the GPU and call it done. So, I've got what this could probably do. Although, I think the throughput between a the speed I think of the throughput through the machine is better than what I currently have. So, >> plus I mean, you can put this thing in a bread box. You can put it in your cupboard, >> man. >> You can put it under your pillow. >> Glove box. Yeah. >> Put in your truck. >> Back pocket. >> Back pocket. >> Big iPhone. >> Kind of is. >> Yeah. >> Oh, a big iPhone, man. >> With a worse processor. Okay. So, >> what I want to know is is did is Peter getting a kickback >> from Apple? >> I think he probably should. >> I mean, >> at least affiliate link through that thing. I don't think they really do affiliates, but if they did, he should be linking over to Amazon with that affiliate link at least. You know, >> gosh, here might be the next best thing, though. When they release the latest next Mac Mini and there's still a run on the Mac Minis, put him in the keynote. >> Yeah, they demo. Here it is with Moltbot. >> Yeah, that's the next best thing. I mean, honestly, >> that'd be cool. >> Yeah, that would be cool. What else been going on? Well, uh, I read this post from Roberto Selbach. Okay. Your app subscription is now my weekend project. >> Oh, this plays into the death of SAS. >> It does. >> Your app subscription is my weekend project. Now, this is an old trope or meme, I guess, in developer world is like the I could build that in a weekend kind of a thing, >> except for is it his point is probably that that's now less false than it used to be. >> Uh, well, here's some key points. The author uh with zero Swift or Mac OS experience built three functional apps, dictation, >> screen recording, and a markdown editor >> to replace $14 to $15 a month of subscriptions they had. Now, that to me is a really, really interesting new world, Jared. >> Isn't it, let me say that again. Zero Swift Mac OS experience. Three apps replaced 15 bucks a month. I believe it. I'm building a video editor right now. A Mac OS native. I am. I'm just like, you know what? Why not try it? Why not try it? Cuz I can spec out a video editor to work just the way I want it and none of the extra stuff. Of course, we use Adobe Premiere and all their tools and it's got so much in there and it's like, do I need all this? What if I had one that just worked exactly? I'm like, my brain works and I just don't need that anymore. Now, can I get there? I don't know. I'm not sure if it's going to get there. So far, it opens up videos. It plays them. It has all the keyboard shortcuts I want. It does markers, ins and outs, stuff like that, but it doesn't actually do like the >> the rest. this is like an editor for existing videos like to create clips and stuff and I never would have even considered such a thing because like I don't I don't know swift and I I did write a Mac app >> probably 15 years ago which was really simple yeah >> in Objective C >> and it was called detours and its entire point was to manage your Etsy hosts for you without going to the command line >> so you could like >> detours >> it's called detours yeah >> I like that >> yeah it was cool it was very cool and Um, I had to learn a whole bunch of stuff to do that, which was fun. Good side project. Put it out for free. People downloaded it. People liked it. Eventually, it actually didn't use Etsy hosts. It used a different Mac native system that does the same thing via an API that Apple built, which was really cool. And that made me not have to actually like edit that file and get pseudo privileges and stuff. And then they deprecated it. And so eventually it quit working, and I just didn't care enough to to make it work a different way. My point is that I had to learn so much and it was so simple. Like literally you put it's a table with like two columns, right? The address and then like the redirect spot just like your Etsy hosts which like space delimited stuff. And I learned so much Objective C to do that and packaging and Xcode and all this. I would never consider to build a video editor, but you know, your Adobe's Creative Cloud subscription is my weekend project, I guess. I mean, there's so much there that Adobe does that this won't do. But man, just the uh the Hutzba. I don't know. What does it give you? It gives you like the freedom to just try. >> Well, that goes back to Tom Preston Warner's initial phrase around GitHub, which it was a little bit more crash than that. permission to f up, >> right? >> Which I think is really interesting that you say that and I respond with that because look what happened with GitHub, you know, with open source even. >> Mhm. >> You know, when you had permission to just try things and permission to just create things and permission to just join communities and >> permission to fork things even, you know, a lot >> a lot of liberty and a lot of agency comes into play. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I would say a lot of courage. I think it's you have to have courage to like bite off more than you can chew when it comes to even a weekend project, you know, like why would I do that aside from this assistance because the depth is so deep and I may not come back the same person. Okay. >> Right. >> I might I might come out a whole new developer and I might not like myself. Okay. >> Right. Yeah. I came back liking square brackets, you know. I was like, "Hey, >> spaces." No, come on now. >> I didn't even mind the square brackets after that. I'm like, you know what? C is not too bad. Then I'm like, >> what are you talking about, Jared? This stuff is atrocious. You just got used to it, you know? >> That's right. Yeah. >> So, I am with is it Frederrico? What's his name? >> Roberto. >> Roberto. My bad, Roberto. >> That's okay. I think it's cool that we now have leverage. So much so that we're willing to like dip our toe into other pools to see if the water is warm and uh save ourselves some money, save ourselves some time, save ourselves some pain. >> I think he actually may have replaced more money than this. Now I'm looking at the details here. How many subscriptions did he replace? >> Well, I'm looking at the details here and I wanted to say this one part cuz this is the part that I really enjoyed about his post. He says, "In the past, I used to use Loom, which I like Loom." >> Mhm. >> And if you go to loom.com, I think you might like them, too. And they're they're cool, right? They really changed things. They put a little video recorder in your Mac menu. And >> it's like a screen sharing for for sharing, like capture, to share, right? To document, to share, to >> I've used it in sales scenarios where I want to introduce myself to somebody or I want to share an idea and rather than the meeting, I just tell them the five-minute version of what I'm trying to convey. Mhm. >> Skip the meeting, still get the person, you know, and then you can respond in email or with your own video. We can go back and forth if you wanted to, which we've never done that, but I've used Loom before and had and and received value from it. Now, I did question the cost cuz I didn't use it enough to make it worth it, but the value I got when I did use it was great. So, it's one of those things where it's like high value, but not frequent enough to make it be like, "Oh, yeah, I should pay for this." Right? >> So, he says, "I used to use Loom, which cost 15 bucks a month. And so after creating Jabber, which is what he created, I got excited and viodated real, which was the Loom uh version of it. Simple demo recorder. It's of course open source on GitHub, github.com/rellback or cellblock, however you want to say that. Relax. R E L. Cool. >> And you open sourced it. I love that. >> Well, if you do if you take that exact same process and you multiply it out over time in space and you say now I should say most developers and then even some non-developers. So like all these new people are going to be trying to do similar things. that Roberto has done and that other people have done in small ways and they're going to apply that inside their personal lives. They're also going to apply that at their work and look at all those subscriptions they have for their business and say, "Can we run this business a little bit leaner? Do we need all this? Can we build something ourselves?" The cost of building your own is coming down. Could that lead to The death of SAS, the death of software as a subscription. Well, this might be the nail in the coffin right here. Let me read this to you. Well, one more, okay, >> verbatim from Roberto. All right, >> can't skip these words. These are good words. I quote, "All of these $10 per month apps are suddenly a weekend project for me. I am an engineer, but I have never written a single Mac OS application. I have never even read Swift Code in my life. And yet I can now get an app up and running in a couple of hours. This is crazy. I concur, my friend. I concur. This is crazy. So, what do you want to say about the death of SAS? Uh, have you experienced this personally? Have you replaced any SAS? Have you killed a SAS in your life, Jared? >> Not personally. No. >> I mean, even if it's just killed to you, it doesn't have to be killed for everybody else. Like, has it has it dead to you? Right. I haven't actually done that. I'm trying to think. I'm pretty light SAS user. I'm trying to think of what my subscriptions are that are software subscriptions on a personal level. Like we have a lot of change log subscriptions. We can probably talk through those, but honestly, I don't have very many subscriptions that aren't content. Like most of my subscriptions are content. I guess we do use a our groceries app, which is a inapp purchase. It's an iPhone app that we use in order to manage a shared grocery list with like you know what what do we need and recurring and stuff like that and I but it's like six bucks a year or something like it's not money that isn't well spent or like there's no pain for us and so I think I haven't replaced that one I haven't even tried. What else do I subscribe to? I can't even think of anything. What do you subscribe to Adam? What are your SAS? your personal fast. >> Oh, not much. I mean, I'd say the same. I we're we're we're uh we're here in Texas and we have HB and because we have HB, they have an amazing app which has amazing lists and so all my grocery lists are done in there. >> That's a good idea by the way. >> Uh they have buy it again. This is like >> bam >> from me, you know, >> right? >> Sweet. Okay. >> Yeah. Uh I think that's actually a really interesting place in uh in technology is you have these non-typical tech companies that are now tech companies. I mean >> they have a really well done iOS you know app for HB a really well done website even and it's not just like hey we're a grocery store it's like hey come and shop here >> you know they will deliver to your door you can go and pick it up you know all that good stuff and order in advance. My wife is a big fan of ordering advance and picking it up. I like to go in the store because I'm a I have to touch it, feel it, you know, like I like to choose my meat and choose my fruits and vegetables. >> Sure. >> But I'm not against her ways. I like her ways. She's amazing. Um, >> not many subscriptions though, honestly. >> I think Oh, you know what? Let me back up, my friend. >> Oh, he's got some. Here they go. >> I've got one. I forgot about this one. >> Okay. >> Uh, so I was going to call it Mac Tuner. You remember this, Jared? Mac tuner. >> Oh, yeah. Mac tuner. Okay. Okay. So, clean my Mac. >> Yeah. So, I got frustrated. It was not because of the cost. It was because of the I guess it was kind of cost RAM cost, >> right? >> So, here it is eating up my RAM and I'm like, you know, I'm hitting swap and stuff like that. And I'm like, gosh, do I really need, you know, this thing running all the time? And so, I was like, I wonder if I can if I can vibe code a better version of this because I mean, it's just scripts. >> All it is is a pretty UI on scripts. I'm like, really, what I want to do is maintain my Mac. And so I was going to call it Mac Tuner, which was still cool. >> I've I've since changed the name because I'm more nerdy than that. >> I want it to sound like a system service. So it's called Tuner D. >> Tu N E R D. >> Tuner D. >> Tuner D. >> And let me tell you, one one of my favorite features is in here is this is that you do tuner D. This is a CLI. Tuner D. Okay. memory d- AI. What do you think that does, Jared? >> It's gonna tell you how much memory your AIS are using. >> Man, it it doesn't even tell me in like a table or a dashboard. It's a oneliner call out to Claude cuz I have it installed and cloud code as a matter of fact and haiku. So, it's super fast. Like, it's almost instant. >> That's how fast it is. And instead of waiting for the whole entire thing to like be done and then print it to the screen, it streams it. and it looks cool. So rather than like me reading this table about how my memory is, now I'm reading words that are crafted just for me in real time based on what I'm doing here. And it's like, hey, uh, your system's doing great, a little overloaded here and there. Think about uh, Dropbox is always one of the culprits. >> Oh man, that's what we got a vibe code, a new Dropbox. >> Amen. A >> that's that should be our next project. >> I kind of feel bad celebrating this. Okay, I really do. I kind of feel bad celebrating this. >> I did a fist pump and everything. Okay, for for the audio listeners, >> he did. He fist pumped >> I fist pumped. Okay, you can't hear those. I fist pumped. >> Wow. Gosh, >> there's there's a business sass. I guess it also is personal because before business, we had our personal Dropbox. And so, yeah, there you go. And I pay annually, I think. >> But, you know, that's a form of monthly. That's a big software as a service for both individuals and teams making tons of money sitting there not really doing much that I can see outside of the box you know >> that's right like it's it's there now I will tell you let me tell you what it's uh what it's doing here tune >> what's the last Dropbox feature that they added where you're like oh that's cool I've been waiting for that I can't think of one coolest feature they added probably in the last 10 years was selective sync that was a Big deal. >> Tunerd memory- AI. Oh gosh, this is so beautiful. I love this. I love vibe co vibe cod and I'm just kidding. I'm not going to say it. I can't go there. I can't say it. It's just too screen share. Can you share it so we can see it? >> Yeah, I'll screen share this. >> Oh my goodness. Did you know the the original Dropbox selective sync 1.0 came out in 2010? >> That's crazy. That's 16 years ago. >> Okay. Do you see this, Jared? >> Yes. Adam Sakoviaak at-bpm1. >> That's right. >> I assume that has your initials and your Mac Pro and it's an M1. >> That's right. >> Okay. All right. >> Your naming conventions. >> Prepare for this. >> Tuner D. >> That's it. >> Okay. Let's see it. Analyzing Haiku. Oh, your system load just fine. That's a little >> this. >> Oh, that it's it's mad about granola. They're running too. >> If you keep Chrome, it just yelled about Dropbox. The formatting is a little weird here in this smaller screen, though. What's going on here? Okay, there we go. >> Well, you've got it bigger than that. Yeah, there. >> Yeah. So, maybe some some touches and some feelies on that one there. Now, it's not upset >> about Let's run it again. See if we get a new result here. >> Why was it Was it complaining about Dropbox? >> It just complained about it and I cleared it to to do this demo. >> There you go. Dropbox. >> There you go. Now it's upset about Dropbox again. See, it's like if you want the single biggest quick win, quit. Granola. I don't even know why it's running. And Dropbox 1.1GB. >> That's RAM. >> What is Granola and what's it doing? >> Well, Granola is uh what is Granola? Granola like records it helps you with your meetings. It takes takes your meeting notes for you. >> Gotcha. But like if I >> after this call it's going to be like man Jared was really on fire today >> maybe. So >> great takes you hilarious even >> when you're not actively syncing look at this 2.4 gigs consumed >> with zero downside or zero downside in that case. Yeah. >> But then you can also do what you >> can you do tunerd memory release or whatever like free it you know. >> See that now? See now you get the whole dashboard. Would you see that down there? And now it's printing out down there, too. But you get the full-on dashboard. Look at this. Heavy >> Google Chrome always >> like look at these guys. These culprits here. Adobe CC not even using it right now. Come on. >> You have a dash kill and you can just kill the stuff, you know. >> Well, I got >> Oh, don't do that cuz it's going to knock you out of our session. Don't do it. It'll kill your >> I haven't done this yet. It's There is Let's see what the dash help says. >> You sure you want to do this? >> Let's see here. We got some cleaning. We could do >> execute. That's the word you chose. D-execute. >> Oh, I'm just reading your docs. It says, uh, scroll down slightly. Uh, apps uninstall Slack-execute. >> Yeah. Oh, the reason why is I didn't want this thing to be, especially with uninstallations, I didn't want it to be like accidentally uninstalling Slack or something like that. >> I wanted to be safe to run initially and rather than running like dash for a or a dry run-d dry run, I wanted to actually make it so it was explicit. So some of these installations are like system you know issue stuff where you had you know you had to do dash execute. So if you want to uninstall something you have to be explicit and put the slice your neck off situation here. >> Yeah it seems like more like a guillotine scenario. I think I would advise like seriously >> I wrote that copy Mac OS system tuning toolkit get dialed maintain your Mac AI augmented >> and then dev is the is should be the version number and I haven't played with this enough yet to give it a version yet. So there's no version, >> dude. Put it on the internets. Come on. >> Well, I just haven't had time, man. >> Tuner D. No, you just say you launch Claude and say, "I would like this to be on GitHub soon. Please take care of that for me." >> See, they all commands run in dry mode. Dry run mode by default. >> Safe by default. I like that. >> Mhm. No accidental uninstallations or executions. >> Cool, cool, cool. So there you have a little bit of your own, you know, killing of a SAS cuz that was a subscription model. Now the downside of this is like, hey, these these are our people. This is our industry. These are our people. This is how a lot of us make our living is with this stuff. I was thinking about like uptime robot and all these things, you know, uptime checkers. Like you could code one of those up in a half an hour. Probably that's going to work. >> Well, I you could uh mult it. >> You could mult it. You got uh you got uh heartbeat checks in there. Which is that? >> So I'm of two minds or two hearts of this where like I get excited and I'm thinking like power to the people to to build their own stuff and save money. And then on the other side it's like yeah but I'm also have all these other people who've been building these software services >> and built lives and careers and hired a bunch of people and helped them make a career of themselves and they're now threatened. Obviously, you can't stop the system once it's moving. >> But this is why people are talking about the death of SAS. And I think mostly this conversation has been going on around recent stock market moves because the SAS bundle of stocks have all been trending downward over the last six months. We talk about Adobe, we talk about Atlassian, we talk about Oracle, Salesforce, Service Now, Docusine, etc., etc., etc. Go ahead and find your SAS ETF and you'll find all the tickers who seem to be trending down and not just with your typical market movements. I mean that's what people are saying is like this seems like a sector that is losing value and that can be concerning and also a sector that needs to maybe find itself on the other side of the AI wave and and and some will find it through and others won't. Your thoughts? I think there's some that uh I'm actually on drwealth.com right now. I just Googled quickly SAS bundle stock. Thank you for that new phrase in my lexicon, Jared. I didn't think of that phrase. I'm down with it. >> Keyworded it for you. >> Yeah, Zoom. I'm not sure who would vibe code a Zoom. Yeah, I'm not sure if you can vibe code a Zoom. Like, maybe you could, but there's a lot there. There's a lot going on there. Could you vibe code a docuign? I think Signatures in the case of everyday folks is so free. Like I know Dropbox has it. Docyign might even have a free version, but once you get into that market where you for sure need to have like daily signatures, you're not going to vibe code a docyign. There's too much legality in there. I don't think you would at least not not in 26, maybe 27, 28. Shopify, would you would you vibe code away as Shopify? I mean, that's maybe for your individual self. Rails, you got Rails, right? That's what Shopify is. So, on an individual level, you could do that, but would you replace the entire platform? I don't think you could do that with a vibe code. Could you vibe code Cloudflare away? Maybe in in parts. >> I don't look at Cloudflare as so much as a SAS as it is like in internet infrastructure. Maybe it's in the bundle there. >> Parts of it. Yeah, for sure. Cloudflare. Twilio. Would you cl would you vibe code Twilio way? I'd vibe code on it, not away. >> Yeah. What if you find another, you know, base layer that's just cheap and doesn't just has an API or just an MCP server? you know, all the extra stuff they built around it is where the where the money is. >> Yeah. >> I mean, I think probably you got CTO's and their CFO looking at this sort of strange new world and saying, "Who what are our biggest >> Yeah. >> subscriptions." And they're like, "Well, we spend $300,000 a year on DocYsine." >> And they're like, >> I just made that number up. >> No, I know. I'm I'm Yeah. You're the guy I'm responding. I'm the responder. I'm like, "Yeah, what?" >> Yeah. like could we do we need all of those features? No, we don't. What part of docu sign do we use? >> That's right. >> And then they list out like the four things that we do. Maybe we do them a lot. And they're like, you know, can you put two engineers on that for two weeks and see what they come up with? >> Two days, Jared. Two days. >> I'm being generous. A weekend weekend project for two devs, >> right? >> Or one dev and two clads. Or a dev, a cla and a malt, you know, and see what they can do. I feel like lots of people are doing that and are going to continue to do that more and more as these tools become more capable. And I do feel like we've crossed crossed the threshold where capability is now viability. I mean, they're very useful now. It was not the it's not just the promise, it's the delivery. Are there problems? Yes. Is it 100% amazing? No. Do you still need to know stuff? Absolutely. Like all those caveats aside, there's real value here and it's starting to be realized and it's going to change things. I wonder if it's back to the days of service providers versus software as a service. What if we're in the day of bespoke software for me? Cuz how much SAS like you just said with docuign when we start to examine and audit what do we actually use? Well, we only use four of the features we get from enterprise, but we have to have enterprise to have the API access, >> right? >> It's like, well, we only really pay for the API access because that's what we need that because that's how we're doing X, Y, or Z. Maybe that's how we're doing syncing and we have our own backups for sock 2 compliance or you whatever for whatever reason. Uh, disaster recovery, it's always DR is always a good culprit there. Well, we paid for for disaster recovery, business continuity. And there are two reasons why you always spend too much money, >> right? you know, and then you do that. But what if you're like, "Okay, great. Now I got to go find two AI native, well-informed engineers who wouldn't normally build it on their own, but now they can because they're augmented. So what if the world is full of bespoke software built just for us almost in real time potentially by service providers and or the product marketer who has never touched a thing vibe codes for the most part and maybe you have a couple engineers sort of like making sure these things are legitimate and secure and the things that really matter to the business like that's one thing that that Damen Tanner and I talked about. He was saying how he was evaluating a CRM tool and they actually used it for a bit. I forget which one he said they use. I think he may have said on air. I'm not sure if he did. And he questioned he's like, "Gosh, I don't really get a lot of value. They make me go to this web front end that's not really for me and this dashboard that's not really helpful, but I do need to keep track of these things." And so he said he just rifted for like four minutes into like text to speech and yoloed whatever that was. And out the other end came this CRM that they're now using. >> And we speculated on that conversation like what if we're in the era of just in time just for me interfaces. And it's not really the death death of SAS necessarily. It's like maybe it's always illplaced or misplaced or we still need the API. Maybe we still need some things from it. that the UI layer >> is for the I think I think Damen said this. I'm going to say it too. The dumb slow humans. >> Like you don't need that for a fast AI. You don't need that web UI. You need >> an API. Maybe a CLI, maybe an MCP server if you're if that's not a bad word around here. >> You know, gosh, MCP, check yourself. You know, that's that's what the speculation was was this world like just in time interfaces just for me bespoke. I could see that being the case if you think about it. What we're doing today, which is like and which we've been doing for a couple years now, which is like I don't write SQL anymore and Matt Ryer doesn't have to build his graphon dashboards anymore and the honeycomb thing writes its own stuff. You describe what you want. Like that's kind of a first iteration of a bisc bespoke interface based on demand. Like a SQL query is that it's just a hardcore nerdy one, right? Like I want to see all the sales where this amount was less than this amount and then like make sure you don't include the ones from Australia, but then do that. And like you tell it that and it builds you that query and it shows you that data and that is a bespoke one-off ad hoc interface to the information based on a human's desires. And as the tools get more tools to build with, and it's very simple to say, I actually did this recently. Here's a good personal example. I went into my OPD account, which is Omaha Public Power District. That's our local energy partner. And they provide I think it's like 12, that's more than 12. I think it's like 18 months of your history in this like wonky UI that's a single page app that was built by some low-end dev, you know, who just got hired or whatever, an intern project. And I'm looking at like the URL and I want more information than that and I want a better chart than that, but I'm because I want to know like how am I doing now versus, you know, previous years. And so I can tell from their API calls because I'm a nerd. So, I open up the thing and I'm like, "Yeah, they're just like they're pageionating this collection and it's just the UI that's limited and the UI stinks." And I'm like, "All I got to do is give that to Claude and say, look, this here's my cookies. I here's the API calls. just see how many months you can actually go back and then build me an HTML page that has a chart that provides like monthly, >> yearly comparisons, like all the things that I want to see >> and like seven minutes later I was looking at five years of data. >> What? >> Yeah. Yeah. I was looking at my whole history on my own website running from inside my browser that's just sitting on my desktop HTML file >> just in time bespoke for me >> and that was cool and then I was like you know what I'm I love that I'm I'm done with it you know like I don't need it anymore I can open it up whenever I want it's historical data so it's not going to change I can look at that and then next year when they have more data I can go ahead and just rerun the thing grab the grab the latest and throw it in there >> and that is I think more and more and more of that's going to happen so I I think he's on to something. I think I think that is going to be a future. So, the only push back I have, which is not much cuz I fully agree. I just wonder who's going to do that. What kind of person is going to do that? >> Do what? >> That what you did. Like no one else is going to have your intuition like you did because they don't have your software engineering history. But because you do, >> you can. And because you can, you do. Someone else that doesn't understand your row structure or sees between those two lines like you did can paint that picture. >> So I think the the availability is certainly there, but the kind of person who can do it for now is still largely an engineer or what we may call soon a former engineer. >> Gee, thanks. No. Yeah. >> You know what I'm trying to say though? Like like >> Yes, I do know you're saying >> my wife's friend, no offense to them, they're not technical. They're they're never going to do that. >> I get it. >> They're not the patience at all ever >> for it. >> I think there's like a gap right now. So, the one insight that I had that most people wouldn't have is like there's more data in there. They're just not showing it to me, you know, and I could actually I didn't necessarily have to give Claude any of that. I could have said, "Here's a website that I'm logged into. Can you get more data?" and it might have been it would have just figured that out on its own. >> Oh, that's true, Jared. Okay, good. Concur. I like that. >> So, I think my expertise probably gave it a leg up >> and got me there faster, but I think there's a there's a gap and then we have the next generation, you know, we're going to have AI natives here soon. In fact, our kids are going to be darn near close to A native, right? >> My kids are already saying things like, "Well, did you ask chat?" You know, and that's always that's not the chat in there. That's chat GBT. It's not some >> the Twitch streamers chat, which is the other version of ask chat, you know. >> And then what they mean by that is like any question that feels like it's impossible to answer like we would never know or like eventually you'd be like, "Can I get more data for my op for my OPD?" Like we'll ask chat, you know, chat's going to tell you. And so they're going to be asking all kinds of questions that we wouldn't think of. And so they might go there. Hopefully they go there and they use it for great good. >> Yeah. Let me let me share one really uncanny story that I think was just really wild. We took this trip in October uh to Pennsylvania because I'm from Pennsylvania originally. And uh we had this, you know, we ended up getting the stomach flu which made the trip kind of suck really bad. I'll spray those details cuz they get kind of gory. But it was fun. It was a cabin in the woods in the mountains of Pennsylvania. Beautiful. Like this area is beautiful. It's it's the fall time, autumn time, and it's when the leaves are turning. And so they were just beginning to turn and so like this this is beautiful mountain air you know just amazing magical and I think we I had done some planning with my claude. So my wife uses chat I use claude she now uses chat and claude. I still just use Claude cuz I'm biased. >> Anyways, that's a different uh different concern. But because it knew I planned this trip and what we were doing, I maybe it didn't even know all this. But I asked it cuz I tell my sons stories at bedtime and I said, "Well, you know, rather than me make up this story about our trip, cuz we want to reflect back on where we had been. We love to like reflect back on our fun times, the good old days, which was basically yesterday." And uh and I had Claude make up this story and I you know similar to Damian I just voiced in there dictation pushed the microphone button. Hey Claude, you know do this that this is where we went. We went to Pennsylvania. Here's where we were at. This was the zip code. Kind of gave us some some context and details that they can use to come up with some you know some kind of realistic version of it. This thing told us a story. I sw I I swear it was there with us, dude. Like that's how good the story was. So it retold this hike story we did at Ohio Pow. It's about a fourmile hike. What we saw, the landmarks we saw, the bridge we crossed, like where we stopped at, where we got the ice cream from. Like dude, like it knew these things. It retold a story. I swear it was there with us. That's how good the story was. Like that is wild. That's not an app. That's just entertaining stuff, right? >> Yeah. >> So, what >> did you have the voice mode on the entire time or something? How how did it know everything where you went? >> Oh, that's because I told it in the prompt. My prompt was detailed. >> Got you. >> I think it had some chat history, too. It may have pulled from, but it was like, are we going to go to this cabin or that cabin? It wasn't like planned this whole trip for me. I think it may have had some data in our chat history potentially. But my prompt to it was like we went to Ohio Pal. Give me an Ohio Pow story where it took this hike and I told it the loop we took. And so it knew the loop. It knew the place where we'd go get the ice cream. It knew the different stops we take at like Horseshoe Falls and stuff like that. And so because it knew all that or it it could go and find it and research it quickly, it just did. And it gave me a 20-minute story to read to my son. And that was the first time I'd read to him like a story where he didn't fall asleep during the story because he was gripped by the realism of it being our story. He's like, "Dad, did it just tell us like what we did?" I'm like, "It it basically did, son." Like, it basically did. It was so close to being our story. So, very, very interesting times. I mean, I don't know there's a sass out there for that, >> but maybe there's a sass for that, you know, like just in time storytelling. I mean, you're you're taking audible time right there. >> That's true. That's true. I would say the other one that's pretty interesting, if you haven't played with this yet, is notebook LM. >> Notebook LM is pretty for our job, man. The podcasting. >> Now, you know what? I had this different take on it because what's the easiest way to describe it? Like, I was learning some stuff and there's there's not a lot of content on some of the things I'm trying to learn. And so rather than that, I will kind of like have this session with Claude and I'll tell it to summarize it for me and I'll shove that into Notebook LM. It'll create a podcast. Now, it's not that great. It's not that great of a podcast, but it >> Yeah, I listen to one. >> It will still do the audible version of the information, but >> right, >> it's kind of I think that the future of whatever it is will be better. Current iteration good enough. >> I see the value. So, I'm I'm mostly kidding when I say they're coming for our job. I think it's silly they call it a podcast when literally it just means two people talking, >> right? >> But I mean, I guess that's what a lot of podcasts are, you know? >> Two people talking. >> Yeah. So, here we are. But, and I was kind of offended because the way it opened up was like they're talking about what they had for lunch and stuff and I'm like, I know neither one of you had lunch. Like, I understand it would be valuable and they that's obviously just one example. It was the example that Google was using at the time. So, I feel like I it was fair judgment, but >> it makes sense if you have like a hairy topic or a boring topic, hearing two people talk about it back and forth is easier to consume and more enjoyable to consume than like sitting there and reading or even having an LLM summarize for you. So, I do see the value there. I think it's silly they call that a podcast, but I think it's probably the closest approximation to what people expect from a podcast. So, I get it and I agree that they are going to get better. uh my initial tastes were pretty sour. >> The way my the way I think of it in my use case is not the replacement, it's the alternative. So when there's a lack of real-time content out there that's good on the subject. >> Yeah. >> Or I want to go into this particular paper because somebody wrote it and um and you know I don't want I can't go back and read it. >> So I'll listen to it while I do the dishes. I just feed it the paper. >> Yeah. >> And these two AIs have a discussion about it >> and I listen to it. Well, you know, so I guess in that case it kind of is a replacement, but for me it's like an alternative. I can't read it, but I I kind of did. I would go and leave through it. >> Well, because I can't listen to it, I like to listen a lot. Like I'm a big Audible user, so this is like right up my alley. >> I'm like, I I'll do the dishes and listen to this versus that. And they don't give me the option to read it on the web. I can't just push a button and say read me this article, >> right? >> So like that's the next best version of it. And it's been more like an alternative path to the information, not a replacement of the original thing to take its value away or to like take somebody's lunch away, you know, their web view, >> right? It's packaging. >> Yeah. >> I just think that the the AI podcasters just need to be straightforward with with what they are and who they are, you know, and don't try to be humans. Just be like, "Yeah, we're two AIs to talk about this. And don't act as if you had lunch that day or that you have emotions about things, you know, because like >> that's just off-putting. But if you just be like, "Hey, I read this great article. Tell me about it." Like I haven't heard that version. I'm sure it's out there where it doesn't have any sort of personal story anecdotes, just ditch the anecdotes and stuff and just like be who you are. I got no problem with AI generated content as long as I'm just straightforward that it's AI generated content and it's straightforward that it's, you know what I'm saying? There's just value there. It's the uncanny valley of trying to act as if you are not that just just confounds and and offends. But did you yours didn't have any storytelling or anything about their lives and stuff like that's what I was listening to. I was like no. >> Yeah. That's part where I think it's even too sticky. They It's on repeat. So >> they will do and these two it's a guy and a girl in this case. >> Yes. >> I think they call the deep dive even. Welcome back to the deep dive where we're going deep. Oh my gosh. Our reader today has supplied us with a plethora of new information. It's like >> I mean >> excited. >> They're very excited. They're very excited. I don't know how to take this stuff, man. I'm not sure where to where to categorize this and like, oh no, this is terrible or this is super core. What the heck is this I'm listening to. I'm just not sure >> where this lands for me. I'm enjoying it though. I really am enjoying it. >> There you go. I guess that's what matters. >> Yeah, it's a new way. >> Some people will enjoy it, other people won't. And uh see if it makes its place in the world. >> Yeah, >> I do think reading papers is oftenly oftenly often boring. And so if you can make that more approachable and accessible to more people, then you're going to help get that information out to more people. So there's value there. All right, what else? We've talked a lot about a lot of things. Is there anything else that's exciting or scary out there or interesting in the world? I did have one article in this week's news that I thought tied into our conversation around when you brought up service providers and I wasn't sure exactly what you meant by service providers but the post was the future of software engineering is S sur and his entire point I think that was Swizzeller his point was that as the creation of software becomes easier and easier and features and ideas and implementation get less important. What gets more important is the ability to maintain, secure and operate that which has been created over a long period of time. And I think that kind of dovetales into your point about service providers and I wondered if I was picking up what you're putting down or if I was read misreading what you were saying. Yeah, I think this is similar because I was saying, you know, you can have the product manager and not saying that product managers can't or even product marketers can't be developers. They totally can be, but by and large they're usually not. They're usually adjacent. And they're usually going to be vibe coding because they're not steeped in Swift or steeped in something or other. And they're certainly not going to be steeped in security. They may have security theory uh but not be really that deep. whereas the engineer is super steeped in it usually especially in a shift shift left scenario. So I think the one you're referring to is the future of software engineering is S sur. >> Yeah. you know, reading this, I do agree with that because if you run your if you build some of these things for yourself, if you vibe code your own SASes, let's say, and you kill some stuff that is in your life, uh likely in today's world, 2026, you're going to be engineering or engineering adjacent, not like two or three steps Kevin Bacon away from software developer likely. >> Yeah. And then you're going be responsible for keeping that thing up or turning it into a reproducible product that you can conjure or call upon when it makes sense. Maybe you make an iOS app, maybe you do something else, maybe you make a web page. Either way, you're going to be responsible for some version of uptime. So yeah, in that case that does apply. What I meant by a service provider is is this. There are businesses out there that the large part of their secret sauce is somebody else's SAS and their data trapped in somebody else's SAS. And if they could just find a service provider, an engineer, a software developer to go and build their special thing for them, well, now they take back control. Maybe they free up 15 $30,000 a year in wouldbe SAS expenditures and it's not because the SAS isn't good enough. It's because it's it's not just in time and bespoke enough. I think there's a lot of use cases out there where there's people using SAS because that's the only option. It's not delivered in a box anymore. It's only delivered as a service via the wire via HTTP and not many of them are leveraging APIs. In fact, most don't even know what an API is. >> But I do and you do, Jared. >> And what if there was a bunch of Adam and Jareds out there that's like, you know what? I'm going to go help my neighbor who runs this cool business that spends way too much on SAS build their own thing and now have their own secret sauce and have that thing locked down. Then you get into the S sur land because you got to keep that thing up. And you know this, right? Right. The Heroku days, right? You got to keep it up. You got Fly, you got Render, you got Heroku, you got Railway, you got all these hosting providers. Or even if you got crazy without the Hner, got your own box, dialed it in, you know, put it in the cloud. Boom. Shaka, you got your own box, you got your own GPU, you got your own CPU, you got your own RAM, you got your own disc, whatever, and you know what you want. But the service provider, I think this coming future there there's a lot of value to capture in in the place where you got people out there spending way too much on SAS because they have no other choice. And it's a dang shame because they're giving all that data to one, two, or three service providers, SAS providers that really don't care about them because they're not in the community. They're not bad Silicon Valley company or not bad, you know, a company in a different country even. Not saying that's bad, but they're not neighbors >> like 5 miles, 10 miles away, impact my local community kind of neighbor. And I believe that if you're a software developer out there that is looking for place to place value, I would look there. What are the nearby communities and folks that are not visibly struggling but they are spending a lot of money and maybe too much money for their own bottom line and in that way maybe struggling that you could be a good neighbor and a good service provider and build something cool for them. I think that could be the next big future. >> Yeah. >> Cuz I mean how many more of us are way more enabled to build a video editor we would have never built or build tuner D man. You know what I'm saying? and uh and just do a little shell out, you know, a little shell out to to Claude and Haiku and give me a oneliner stream back and make it look cool, >> right? >> You know, I mean, I'm using that. So, you know, in that case, that's that's cool for me. I think there's a lot of possibility in that front there. And that's the area where I think maybe we'll shift. And I would just say that maybe SAS as we know it doesn't die, it just changes. It's largely a web UI. They largely gate it. They say, "Well, if you have if you want the API or you want a non rate limited API beyond a certain measure or access to your own data, call us because that's an enterprise uh ticket." And I'm I'm cool with that. That's how SAS gets their value. I'm not anti that. I just think that the world is pushing back on that notion. >> Mhm. Naturalborn SAS killers. >> Oh gosh. >> It's a good title, man. It's a good title. Oh, that's dirty to say, man. I I want to tell you audience that for those who can't see my face, I'm Jared's laughing a little bit. I'm laughing. I'm smiling. I'm smirking. >> It feels a little dirty to talk about this. It really does. >> I'm laughing. >> It's like a dirty word in a way. I feel like this is >> like taboo. Let's not do this. >> We are. >> And we're not AI. We're real people. >> That's right. >> For now. And I'm still a plug puller at heart. So, you know, there's only so far I'm going to go and then I'm going to pull that plug. >> Pull that plug. Cut that cord >> right when they pick up weapons. You know, I'm just I'm out. >> Yeah. >> Hopefully, it's not too late. >> Yeah. And if you are a SAS out there, I think my advice to stop being such a gate on your API. If you want to be infrastructure, be infrastructure. Provide an amazing API with amazing uptime, great error codes, all that good stuff. Don't rate limit me when I hammered a little bit and I'm developing on something you just like suddenly make me stop because you can't handle it. Figure that out. Be my plumbing and be the layer and let me build some things on your things and have some data freedom. That's like figure that out. I think there's a world for that. Uh, I wonder if that's the I wonder if that's the way to scale SAS to the next level is is freedom in the data. Freedom in the API. We will see. All right. Thanks for hanging out with us and helping us work through all these things and listening along. Let us know if you agree or disagree or if you laughed or cried when we uh said various things. We hang out in Zulip, change.com community. Totally free. Totally cool. >> Totally cool. >> And uh come converse with us. You can also email, of course. You can do whatever you like and we we listen. So that's all I got. Did you have any other topics? I'm kind of wrapping here without asking you. But >> no, I think that's it. That's it. I think we've we've said enough. If I say any more, I'll just get myself in trouble. >> Yeah, we do not want to get in trouble. >> Let's not do that. FCC, no. No, no. Anthropic, we didn't say we didn't say anything. Okay. We didn't talk about Claudebot. That's not what happened here. It was some other bot. You chill. You chill over there. Don't cancel my account. Okay. I keep my cloud code. >> All right. Bye, friends. >> Bye, friends. Hey, hang, Natural Born SaaS Killers, Changelog, 01khh7ye0yk9eh1bb76974yrqs.