Neurodiversity, DevRel Careers & OpenTelemetry ![rw-book-cover](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/DoaAA-hfkCI/sddefault.jpg) 🔗 **Source:** [Neurodiversity, DevRel Careers & OpenTelemetry](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoaAA-hfkCI) > [!note]+ Document Notes > --- > tags: [neurodiversity, developer-relations, opentelemetry, observability, open-source, tech-careers] > author: [MISSING] > source: Open Channels FM > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoaAA-hfkCI > date created: {{date:YYYY-MM-DD}} {{time:HH:mm}} > --- > # 🏷️ Title: Neurodiversity, DevRel Careers & OpenTelemetry > ## 🧭 Table of Contents > - [📝 Summary](#-summary) > - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) > - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) > - [📚 References](#-references) > - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) > - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) > - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) > - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) > - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) > - [❓ Questions](#-questions) > - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) > - [💡 Implications](#-implications) > - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) > - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) > - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) > - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) > - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) > - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) > ### 🔗 References > - [Open Channels FM (YouTube)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoaAA-hfkCI) > - [OpenTelemetry](https://opentelemetry.io) > - [CNCF](https://www.cncf.io) > - [Unmasking Autism (Devon Price)](https://drdevonprice.com/unmasking-autism/) > ## 📝 Summary > - Host Carl (Zach absent) of Open Channels FM interviews Diana Toia — Valencia-based DevRel engineer at Victoria Metrics, former SRE at Elastic, OpenTelemetry contributor, and co-lead of the CNCF Merge Forward neurodiversity group. > - The conversation runs across three loosely joined themes: living and working as a neurodivergent person in tech, what developer relations actually is (and why it's misunderstood), and why OpenTelemetry matters as an observability standard. > - Key stakeholders: neurodivergent tech workers, DevRel practitioners and the companies that hire them, the CNCF/OpenTelemetry open-source community, and conference organizers. > - Risks and tradeoffs surfaced: DevRel roles are hard to measure and easy to misplace organizationally, the post-COVID DevRel job market is shaky, and OpenTelemetry is not yet stable/graduated even as adoption climbs. > - Bottom line: both speakers argue for openness — talking about neurodivergence, giving DevRel real latitude, and standardizing telemetry — as the way each community matures. > ## 📖 Main Content > - **Neurodiversity in tech.** Both host and guest are neurodivergent (self-identified, no formal diagnosis) and roughly 43. Carl describes discovering his autism mid-life via Devon Price's *Unmasking Autism* and reframing past "burnouts" as autistic burnout. Diana co-leads the CNCF Merge Forward neurodiversity group launched in 2024 and gives interactive talks at CubeCon Amsterdam and upcoming summits. Both stress sharing coping strategies (noise-cancelling headphones, recovery time, "bubbling") over gatekeeping diagnosis. Contested/personal claim: whether to seek a formal diagnosis is framed as pure personal preference — empowering for some, irrelevant for others. > - **DevRel careers.** Diana (≈9 months into an official DevRel role) argues the role is technical, demanding, misrepresented, and undervalued. Her central thesis: when DevRel struggles, it's usually the company's failure to define ownership and grant latitude, not the hire's fault. Carl adds the ownership problem — most companies aren't big enough for a dedicated DevRel department, so it lands under marketing/sales/engineering and withers. Both note DevRel ROI/metrics are notoriously hard because conference feedback is sparse and subjective; Carl suggests treating it like brand marketing with multi-channel attribution. > - **OpenTelemetry.** Framed as a framework/standard (not just a schema), described as the second most famous CNCF project after Kubernetes. It standardizes telemetry (logs, traces, errors) so vendors and engineers speak the same data language — a "bridge." Caveat: you still need a backend/store and visualization vendor, so some lock-in remains, and OTel isn't yet stable/graduated. Diana got involved via a Linux Foundation call for SMEs to build the first OpenTelemetry certification exam, then stayed as a docs triager. > ### 🗒️ Notes > #### ⏱️ [00:00:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoaAA-hfkCI?t=5) Sponsors and cold open > - Sponsor reads for Omnisend (email migration) and WooCommerce (client stores). > - Carl hosts solo; co-host Zach is absent. Guest introduced as Diana Toia. > #### ⏱️ [00:02:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoaAA-hfkCI?t=120) Diana's background > - 16–17 years in tech; currently leading DevRel engineering at Victoria Metrics. > - Former site reliability engineer; contributes to OpenTelemetry; co-leads the CNCF Merge Forward neurodiversity group. > #### ⏱️ [00:03:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoaAA-hfkCI?t=182) Carl's autism discovery > - Carl describes a "midlife crisis slash discovering all the autism stuff," no official diagnosis. > - *Unmasking Autism* made him realize much of his behavior was self-found autism accommodation; the topic resonates broadly when he raises it. > #### ⏱️ [00:04:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoaAA-hfkCI?t=240) CNCF Merge Forward group > - Diana: "I've been a neurodivergent person all my life but... I never actually opened up about it." > - CNCF created the Merge Forward neurodiversity group in 2024; she volunteered to lead it and now gives neurodiversity talks alongside tech talks. > #### ⏱️ [00:05:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoaAA-hfkCI?t=300) Diagnosis timing and coping tools > - Carl: most people his age get diagnosed only after their kids are; many in tech "stumble around" not knowing why things bother them. > - Shared accommodations: big noise-cancelling headphones, ADHD, sharing tips built with a therapist. > #### ⏱️ [00:08:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoaAA-hfkCI?t=481) "Selected for autism" in tech > - Carl argues tech is almost "selected" for autistic traits yet treats it as a closeted thing. > - Push to openly discuss strategies that may work for one person and not another. > #### ⏱️ [00:10:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoaAA-hfkCI?t=600) Whether to get a diagnosis > - Both are undiagnosed by choice. Position: diagnosis is personal preference — empowering for some, no practical change for others. > - Carl "just wants prescriptions" (strategies), not paperwork; a former therapist disagreed and urged testing. > #### ⏱️ [00:13:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoaAA-hfkCI?t=783) Path into DevRel > - Diana discovered conferences ~2 years ago as an engineer, loved speaking, took two years to transition into DevRel at an observability company. > - Sweet spot: blend technical topics with community interaction; as an introvert it forces her out of her shell. > #### ⏱️ [00:14:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoaAA-hfkCI?t=842) Speaker strategy: multiple topics > - Carl's coaching tip: apply with multiple non-overlapping topics so you're not competing with identical submissions. > - Timely example — everyone applies with AI now, so a different topic can improve acceptance odds. > #### ⏱️ [00:15:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoaAA-hfkCI?t=900) DevRel is misunderstood as "influencer" > - Diana rejects the preconception that DevRel is just marketing/influencer work; incoming DevRels are increasingly technical (ex-devs, DevOps, SREs). > - Motivation comes from the community; DevRel is competitive and lets her stay current and gather fresh perspectives. > #### ⏱️ [00:18:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoaAA-hfkCI?t=1080) The travel and energy cost > - The role is demanding: heavy travel strains schedule and family, requires a "pool of energy." > - Carl's friend Dwayne speaks roughly every 1–2 weeks, which he finds astonishing. > #### ⏱️ [00:19:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoaAA-hfkCI?t=1140) Managing burnout as an introvert > - Carl (ambivert) describes post-conference autistic burnout — needing weeks in a "bubble." > - Diana prepares heavily, still gets pre-talk panic that "muffles" with experience; recovery time shortens over years. > #### ⏱️ [00:23:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoaAA-hfkCI?t=1381) ADHD vs autism tug-of-war > - Carl: ADHD side loves 12-hour conference days; the autistic side "dies inside" and forces a crash afterward. Thanks to our sponsors, Omnisend and Woo. If you're thinking about switching email platforms but dreading the migration, Omnisend makes it easy. They'll move your automations, templates, and contacts for you so you're ready from day one. Plus, you get support whenever you need it. Visit them at omnisend.com/open channels. If you build stores for clients, Woo Commerce gives you the flexibility to create exactly what merchants need. Customize workflows, extend with thousands of integrations, and scale without switching platforms. You stay in control as every store grows and evolves. Check them out at woocommerce.com. Hi, welcome to uh Open Channels FM. Uh, I'm Carl. Zach couldn't make it today, unfortunately. And uh, we're here with Diana Toia. And, uh, why don't you start telling a bit about yourself? >> Sure. Hi, Carl. Nice to to see you. I'm very happy to to be here. Uh, yeah. So, a bit about myself. I'm Diana. I'm based in Valencia, Spain. Um, I'm originally from Bucharest, Romania. Uh, I've been living here in Spain for the last 10 years. Uh because of >> Yeah, you've been there. Amazing. >> Yeah, I've been there. I love that. So, for people that don't know, they used to have a river and then they drained it and now you can like there's like a a bike path in it. It's awesome. Like it's it's really it's Yeah, I loved it. It's like everybody that's been loves it. I think it's like it's a underappreciated until you've seen it and then over over like very welld deserved the hype once you've been there uh kind of city in Spain. >> Yeah, totally. I love it. So, you get like really nice food, oranges. So, yeah, the perfect mix, you know. Um totally. So, yeah. Uh more or less I could go the easy way and say I move for the nice weather and the nice date. Uh which is actually very very true. Uh but yeah, I work in tech. So I've been working in tech for the last 16 17 years. Um uh and uh I'm doing like a bunch of things. So at the moment I'm leading the debil engineering at Victoria Metrics. Uh but in the past I've been a S sur reliability engineer and I did a lot of engineering work. Um and what I do when I'm not doing the de engineering part I'm contributing to open telemetry. that's uh an open-source project uh for telemetry for observability. Um and I'm also co-leading the CNCF um merge forward neurodeiversity group. So that's basically if you want to learn more about that just just uh ping me. >> I'm I'm literally going to give a talk on neurody on neurode divergence uh in August in Montreal. Um >> yeah, I've been really obsessed. I I want to do a lot of Oh my god, we might do the entire show on this. Uh like but but uh but yeah, no, I've been I had kind of like my midlife crisis slash like discovering like all the like autism stuff. Like I don't have an official diagnosis, but I kind of like read this book. Actually, I have it right here. Uh uh unmasking autism. It's backward and but excellent book and then it made me realize a lot of my behavior was just like I just stumbled on a lot of like solutions to like my autism um and it was like really high opening and um yeah so I just I feel like a lot of us every time I talk about it I don't know what's your experience been but when I talk about it a lot people resonate um >> oh yeah >> yeah I mean definitely we we could go and talk about this some more that for me that's absolutely no problem. Um I mean to be honest I've been a neurody divergent person all my life but you know like I never actually opened up about it. Uh and CNCF have kind of like created this new initiative called merge 4 last year. Uh and they had a bunch of groups before that but they never had a neurodyiversity group. So they created it last year and I saw it as like oh I I can volunteer. I could lead this. That's me. you know I didn't know about that so we slowly uh ramped up uh so right now I'm also giving besides like uh tech talks I'm giving talks about neurodeiversity uh and the same like you said there's a lot of people that are interested uh especially in tech and they come just for the topics so like hey that's me as well like let's let's talk some more >> I mean I I feel my reason for doing it is I feel like a lot of people don't realize especially Like I'm I'm turning 43 actually tomorrow. And basically most people my age don't really go through life with a diagnosis. Like most people get their diagnosis because they had kids and they get a diagnosis and they're like wait a second like I'm this way. Like does that mean and then it's like usually yes. Ex. So I and I just feel there's a lot of that in in tech of people that are just kind of like stumbling around uh not knowing why they're doing things specifically uh in specific ways or why things bother them. I'm also a big fan of the the big headphones as well and um for for the sound, you know, for like >> noise cancellation. >> So the no noise cancellation. Exactly. So yeah, every time I bring it up, people get really excited because it's that and ad ADHD uh I have vote and just >> sharing like I think it's just important. I don't again I don't know what your experience been but I just want to share tips and tricks >> basically. >> For sure. Um because I'm I'm working with my therapist to do this talk, but basically um the idea is not to be like just just talk about it and see like how it impacts you and like strategies that worked for me and things like that because >> again um I've been very open about it, but I find like people really resonate because they're starting to be more aware of it like more people are getting like realizing that that's affecting their life. >> Yeah, definitely. I mean, we are the same age to be honest. And by the way, happy birthday for tomorrow. >> I'm turning for I mean, I turned 43. Sorry, I'm in the past. I I turned 43 actually last December. I still like my mind is like somewhere in the past. I'm like, you know, I cannot get quite up to the moment like, "Hey, man, you're 40 something." >> Okay. It's funny. I'm the opposite. I've been thinking I'm 43 for a couple of months now. Like so it's Yeah, but time's weird. Like age is weird. >> Especially at in your 40s. Like it's like you're kind of like >> still thinking you're like young and then >> Oh, yeah. >> And then some stuff doesn't work. >> We are. We are. We are. Yes. >> Yeah. My brain my brain refuses to say like, "Oh, you're over 30." So I I think I'm stuck way in the past. So, like when I see my age, I'm like trying to confuse like am I 42, 40? I know I'm 40 something, but I >> like I I don't know like what age am I exactly? >> Yeah. I mean, yeah. But um yeah, so it's it's really interesting because um I'm really excited to to hear that you're giving talks and um like I've been trying to apply with that to work camps for a long time and I wasn't able they it's not a work camp I it's another conference but I just think it's interesting for in tech talk like in tech conferences I feel like there's a lot like I said there's a lot of people that are unaware and we're like the prime. We're like we're almost like selected for our autism and in tech, you know, and and we don't talk about it and we don't share strategies and we don't like, you know, like it's kind of like this closeted thing. And I'm just like, no, we should talk about it and and discuss like strategies that work for you and might not work for somebody else, but it you you won't know till you discuss things. So, >> yeah. No, totally. And uh I'm really glad that you also like uh lead with that and I think that's really amazing. Uh like I said this is very new to me as well and I started giving talks actually uh this year. So I had like since January I started giving like talks on neurodyiversity and we had a couple of uh interactive sessions even at CubeCon in Amsterdam. Um and I'm going to be in Minnesota actually for the observability summit there and the open source summit uh giving a talk uh on neurodyiversity day two. So definitely we want to bring more awareness uh to embrace more visibility to to neurodyiversity but not just like uh stay and be isolated you know like just give a bunch of concepts like actually walk around and ask people you know have this interactive session. Hey what do you think about that? Should we like, you know, process some tips and advices like you said? Should we go even further? What's what's your idea how we should move along with this community? So, I think it's great. >> Yeah. I think like I said, it's really more about sharing. I kind of I don't know if I don't know if you're doing this in your talk, but first of all, do you have a diagnosis if you don't mind sharing? >> Oh, no. I I never went to get the diagnosis. >> Okay. Same. Same. So, But I I one of the things I wanted to talk I don't know if you talk about it is whether you should get one or not. And I'm just basically it's up to you. Uh basically is what I I that's like kind of my position. I I think for some people it's very empowering to get one. >> And for some people like me it it doesn't really change anything because I just want prescriptions, you know? I just want like I just want to know what to do. I don't need some sort of paper to tell me uh that I have it or not. Um and but my first therapist really didn't like that. Actually, my first therapist was like, "I'm sure I am." And she's like, "You should get tested." I was like, "Do you think I have it?" She's like, "Yes." And I'm like, "Okay." So like I don't you know I I just think that's like um that's like an a basically that's the tricky topic cuz I think it really comes to like personal preference for for that. Um but that's really cool. So how many talks have you given on this so far? so far. Um, so actually, uh, next week I'm going to give you the second talk, but we also I also had um, how can I say a community hub session at Cub CubeCon like I said. So I'm moving away from day one because I'm giving the same talk I gave at the in January. Uh, but in um, uh, yeah, in Minnesota, we're going to move actually to day two. So we're going to have another interactive session with people and we want to move beyond fundamentals and say hey how can we shape our uh community what can we do from our side to I don't know um better raise the visibility should we create some resources what should we do so definitely we're moving along we're moving along >> yeah that's great and actually this is a good segue because you're going to Minnesota for uh an open telemetry confence conference, right? >> Uh no, actually it's an open source summit. Uh it's okay. It's called Yeah. Open source uh yeah open source summit in Minnesota. Uh and then the second day it's observability summit. >> Uh so yeah anyway at open source summit I'm going to give this talk about neurodeiversity and the second day I'm going to give a tech talk about telemetry. Um, so yeah, they're like, you know, I I have like multi- uh, you know, I wear different hats and I'm like >> shifting from Yeah. >> Yeah. No, it's great. Um, yeah, I they like I think it's always good to have like multiple um subjects that you feel like talking about. Um, I used to I used to speak how you seem like you speak at a lot of conferences per year. Um I think it comes from like the Devril position right like >> uh yeah well yeah because I I discovered conf conferences the conferences like two years ago when I was still uh an engineer and I I couldn't get enough of it. So I was like okay I I I need to speak more at the conferences. So is that a real job? I didn't even know that the real is a real job. So I was like oh yeah that's a real job. Okay I'm gonna work for it. So like it took me two years to actually uh transition to a de position. Uh and here I am right now. >> Uh no no I changed companies. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Yeah. I changed companies. Uh I used to be an S suric uh and then I I changed and uh I was fortunate enough to be a de uh right now at another observability company. So for me that's the sweet spot uh because I can blend uh you know tech uh topics with whatever I want to do >> as well. Um and yeah it's a great position because you know it's I'm an introvert but it also allows me to go out there uh speak more interact with people otherwise I'll be sitting all day long next to my computer. >> Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. it it kind of forces you you out of um of your shell a bit and I yeah I used to speak at a lot of conferences pre-COVID like seven a year or something um and yeah it's useful >> to have multiple topics like you're doing um and >> and just so you can apply it because sometimes when I I would coach people I would say Well, sometimes they might want you to speak, but they already got like three topics similar to yours if you give them multiple topics that don't overlap. Um, and sometimes some years stuff is more popular than others, right? Like if you apply with AI, right? Now, everybody's applying with AI. >> So, if you try to talk about something else, you have a better chance because they don't want to just have talks about AI um and and all of that. Um, how have you found your how have you found it to be in Devril now that you've been in it for a little bit? Yeah, it's uh definitely um how can I say hard work not as I don't know the usual preconception is that oh devril is just like you know basically an influencer or whatever marketing person goes out there gives some talks yada yada yada and then poof magic happens uh and possibly we get some leads out of it which is totally incorrect uh because right now probably used to be like this at the beginning I'm not sure uh maybe like 15 years ago But right now people are more and more um actually uh technical because they move away from different segments from tech uh and they want to do devil. So basically I have a lot of colleagues that they were like software uh developers or like uh devops or sres just like me. Uh they one day they did a clicks like hey I want to teach people how to do stuff right I want to show them I want to explain them and I also want to connect with them and I also want to learn and I think here the plus is the community right because you get um big motivation from the community. I didn't even know there's such a big community out there in tech. Um, and they're all very welcoming. Um, and it's good when you try to find your your sweet spot, like what's your community, what topics do you like to to share? Uh, and um, I I like it because it's very very competitive. So, in the sense that, okay, right now that I transition, like I said, after two years from, let's say, tech um, tech position to deval, which is also very tech, don't get me wrong, but I get to speak with a lot more people and interact a lot more with the community. And this allows me also to how can I say uh learn at my own like keep up to date let's say with the trends uh but also get like fresh perspective from my colleagues uh they they come with so many ideas uh at some point let's say you do this for a few a few months or like a couple of years and people come to you and they're like oh Carlo hey Diana do you want to do a talk together or would you like to come to this conference and I don't know uh give a talk about this so it's really exciting like um the human factor because we we tend to to know each other. We we grow a bit like this and uh within our segment we are a lot more close. So it's from my side I could see right now knowing what a devil person does it's uh very u yeah it's it's mis mis represented is very misinterpreted uh and definitely um undervalued um because yeah on the surface uh people think that it's not necessarily such a tech u technical type of role but it is and it's also very demanding uh because You need to input a lot of effort. You need to have a lot of motivation. >> You need to travel. >> Yeah, you travel a lot. >> If you have friends or a family, then it also, you know, strains uh a bit on your schedule and on your family schedule. Uh so yeah, definitely you need to have like a pool of energy, some magic something. >> I mean I I've met a lot when I was doing conferences a lot precoid. I mean the two types of people I would see all the time are basically Deell people because they were speaking at a lot of conferences and the sales people that were at the boots basically. Um and um yeah I have a the most extreme case is I have a I have a friend called uh Dwayne. He speaks at a conference every two weeks on average if not every week and a half basically. Uh which is insane. Uh I I don't know how he does it because you said you're introverted. Um and I'm kind of curious like I'm kind of ambivert. So, actually right now I'm kind of like in an autistic uh burnout, which is like I don't really want to interact with people. And it's because I just went to a conference and I came back and that was like kind of one of the insights that I got once I realized I was autistic is I had these kind of weird burnouts that weren't really work burnouts. They were just kind of like I can't deal with people uh for a couple of weeks. So like I'm kind of curious how you manage that uh as a as an introvert who does like Devril and all that. >> Well, it's definitely has been a roller coaster and still is. Uh but uh I think it's like the way the way that I mean that was part of my motivation. I wanted to push myself to >> how can I say take the plunge, have the cold shower, >> go out there on the stage. >> Exactly. And actually for my first uh talk I got invited to a conference. It was like a brand new conference whatever. Uh it was an SR conference and uh I I got invited actually was like okay send your CFP whatever I got accepted and I was so stressed and nervous for that conference for that talk. Uh and then like slowly but very slowly I'm not I'm talking about years here. >> Uh it took a lots of um preparation and also I prepare a lot for my talks. uh to calm down, right? So, I always have like, you know, that introvert moment of panic. You know, I get like everything is going, you know, the angst is going like here to to my throat. I'm like trying to breathe. >> Uh and then the anxiety slowly disappears. It's a lot better uh with time with experience. It kind of like, you know, um muffles, you know, so it's better every time. >> Uh and also the recovery time, like you say, it's a lot faster. Uh but definitely it's a cold shower. Definitely I get like all that um anxiety attacks when I see a lot of people there at the conference uh just you know like bursting of energy and trying to find out things and and I I I'm trying to like recoil and I'm going somewhere in a in a dark uh corner and then appear for my >> speaker room. You go to a speaker room. You hide in the speaker room. >> Even there I don't like it because it's like they're like people that want to, you know, get information and be social with you. I was like, "Oh, no." >> You're like, "No, I need I Okay, so hotel room basically has to be a hotel room." >> Yeah. >> And um yeah, of course I socialize, but you're not going to see me uh over talking like that. Uh but it's for me it's it's interesting. Uh I definitely use it as a psychology experiment. uh if you want to like a self experiment uh if you want to take it uh because it makes me better right it definitely reduces that anxiety that social anxiety >> um also allows me to observe people a lot more right so I was telling you about those social uh situations >> and I like observing people that I do probably the best right I like observing people I like to watch them >> uh and I learn you know from from what is happening And to be honest, there's a lot of people just like us like introverts and not only that go to conferences and they do these kind of um um self experiment on them like all the time. Uh and it's it's h I'm I'm pretty happy actually to see that u more than 50% of us are are out there. So uh makes me feel better. Uh every time I meet people for example at big conferences like CubeCon for example, they they come they they take me away. He's like, "Oh man, I have this like anxiety all over me." He's like, "Let's let's go to a corner. Let's relax. Let's talk about our >> It's like and I feel like you saved me." It's pretty funny. >> That's funny. Yeah. Oh my god. My experience is so different. Uh it um my ADHD side loves conferences like absolutely loves it. Like I will be talking to people for let's say it's a 3-day like I will just be non-stop talking to people for like 12 hours a day for 3 days. And um that's when I'm doing well. Uh there's been some conferences I I hide in the speaker room. That's like usually good enough for me. But what would happen and this is was the discovery was just I would come back and I would crash. And that was like because the autistic side is like yo you need like it's like this tugofwar between the two of them. And then at the conferences he's like >> I'm like the ADHD side is like there's people everywhere. It's so exciting and all of that and I get to learn and I get to talk and I get all this this this and like the autistic side is like just like basically like dying inside and and then I come back. That's why I was kind of curious like how you manage it because like like I usually have to hide sometimes like after like right now because I'm like okay I'm like spent like I used all my my energy for for that and now I can't deal with people for a couple of weeks basically cuz I need to like be in a a bubble basically. I I call it bubbling like I have to bubble and stuff but yeah everybody's different it and you can kind of see it I because I have both sometimes I'm really chatty with people and I can see that they're like dying and I'm like I have to like let them go basically cuz cuz they're you can see that they're just like oh god oh god like I'm stuck I'm stuck here this guy won't stop talking to me >> make him stop yeah >> yeah make him stop so I I kind of like notice it. This is like the obser observing thing. But that's like really it's good of you to like put yourself out there and and all of that. And yeah, I think Devril is an interesting position I think in the sense that um like what's been your experience also like internally like inside companies like I find like it's it's kind of like this like I uh we have a a friend of the podcast her name's Tessa she used to do um I think she's still she's doing she's kind of the director of marketing now but she did Devril at Snapchat Snapchat and stuff like that. And um >> it's a very hard time for Debell it seems like right now like in in the job market. And I think part of it is just people don't really understand what the the job is like the the non-technical like the executives like the people that like decide on these programs and stuff like I don't know what's like been your experience with that. Uh I mean you just have one company but experience but it's still you probably see some stuff and hear some stuff from from people um in your field. >> Yeah. So that's a very super super actually super clever question and I'm happy that you asked it because um I started so I'm I'm like you said new to the de like the official Devril position like nine months in. Uh but I already have like uh I'm also hosting like two uh podcasts and one of them is like literally about developer experience right so I'm like talking about all these topics about uh community open source whatever developer experience uh and I'm I'm saying like it's not the necessarily the person that gets hired uh so it's not the fault of the person that gets hired as de or developer advocate or developer experience whatever It's actually the company's problem, right? So, they don't understand what they want. They don't have a clear picture like what are we going to do with this position? Where are we going to put it? Are we going to put it under marketing, under sales, under engineering, standalone? What what are they going to do? Are they will they come up and just share stuff from the field like sales people do? Uh or do they come in and they also change the product, right? So they give like constant loops internally to to our own products or even more intelligently they they uh they they provide some metrics or they they they franchise basically the the feedback they got from the field. That's very important. So uh I think a devril person will shine as long as the company lets them shine. Right? So if you give a dev a very short leash uh and you say like oh you are here under sales or under marketing or under engineering and it's like you will never see the universe outside of this like very fixed boundaries um it's going to backfire and basically you're you're basically not allowing that uh position to flourish accordingly and it's a very beautiful u role right it's a very beautiful role and if given the right Liberty uh it can do wonders. Uh happily for me I'm the current company where I'm in I'm actually doing this. So I I have the right leash the right amount of leash and the liberty um and also the the creativity so I can totally express what I want and provide the feedback come back and uh discuss further things. It's a very uh misunderstood uh position uh and definitely uh de person shouldn't be um uh shouldn't be limited and also shouldn't be like um um it should yeah it should definitely have like um how can I say it should be like a walking person that goes through all the department say hey I learned about this I learned about that what do you think about Absolutely. >> Like, oh, how about that? So, it's like you're jack of all trades and it's true. It's very demanding, but also you need to listen to that person. If you're going to ignore that person that basically you're not doing >> Yeah. They're kind of like your frontlininers, right, with developers, right? So, if you're >> of course frontliner, but also depending on that person's um how can I say past experience, past professional experience, it can be so much more than that, right? Like I said like we have been discussing this like devs they come may come from different backgrounds like more marketing more technical more whatever uh and if you really channel that uh past experience and can do wonders you can really really shine >> um but just talking with other colleagues of mine that u right now are devs but they come from a very technical background uh they see de as something totally different like they never expected deell to be like this uh and unfortunately Many of them >> what do they expect it to be? >> Uh to have more influence and to be more listened. Um and many are like nobody really listens to them internally, right? So they provide a feedback or they ask for feedback and they're not really given uh much uh importance. Uh and that's bad. That's basically you're not using me properly. Uh and I think that's that's sad. Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean I think you hit it really well uh with it is that it's multi- disciplinary it's multi-ep departmental and I think one of the challenges is who owns it right like like like my the more common one for me is it's a marketing thing but um but still you know under marketing it still strugg struggles because again the marketing doesn't necessarily understand developers and um so and so if you put it under engineering anyways there's just a question of like who owns this because most people most companies aren't big enough to have like a department of developer relations you know so who so it's usually falls under some other department that's been my experience talking to people usually >> um Yeah. Yeah. No, totally. And and you're right, and this is what I mean. Like 90% of the time, it's just going to lay there and die. >> So, it's not going to be um how can I say it's going to it's not going to be explored at its full potential. And this is why I think currently we are misusing the term deil and whatever developer experience, developer advocates. >> Uh and we are treating these people let's say not at their full capacity. uh and it's not their fault obviously it's the vision like the company's vision and how they they position the the whole role um but luckily for me I know I met so many great people like uh people in my position that come from like like I said from very different backgrounds uh and they're very very helping persons very curious uh and they're constantly motivated so it's very nice like you kind of know a person because you know they have like this energy around them like you say like you're walking around, you're glowing. This is my field right now. It's like I'm doing stuff. >> Uh and they're I mean the majority of them are are really really helpful. Uh and this is what I like. >> Mhm. Yeah. I mean you you got to you got to like helping people in that position. I feel like that's your number one like job basically whether it's teaching, doing material, content or whatnot. Um, yeah, I I always resonated with I basically just did it for fun. I mean, that's what a lot of public speakers that do it like >> for without a company do it. Like I was just like I like teaching, you know, um, topics like mytick was basically object-oriented programming for WordPress for a long time. So I would do talks on that and um it didn't wasn't for a company but it was just like I like teaching and I like people and that made a lot of sense. Um it it's just like we said it's it's difficult inside a company because uh sometimes it you know somebody had like I said somebody has to own it. So it's and then if nobody does then you're you're stuck with what you described which is like you kind of or it wasn't you but it was the person you were talking to. I think that it was like I send feedback up and then it just kind of goes nowhere, right? Because nobody's nobody owns that. Um >> yeah. So that's really that's really great. It's like it's it's it's funny. Like I said, I'm I'm shocked because I I I my my impression of the role this right now is that it's like a bit dying. Like I I don't like it's hard like I I feel like it's hard for dev rails right now. Um like I think companies just I think with co again you this is pre pri this was prior to your career switch but I I don't know conferences and stuff struggled I think since co um right so >> oh yeah of course yeah yeah no totally I mean I I was lucky because I discovered everything like uh more or less two to two and a half years ago or even three so I was like postcoid for sure Um and and then people probably wanted to revive the whole conferences part. Uh so I never got uh the previous wave when it was like probably flourishing and people were like this is cool. Uh but yeah, right now it's a lot more like you said like like more conservative but still it's it's very a very soft job. I'm not sure about the United States. I I'm pretty sure it's dying there. Yeah, I don't know if it's dying, but I I feel like there it's I've seen a lot of people struggle to to find work, you know. I think they're they they there's not as much as there used to be, you know. >> For sure. For sure. >> Um so, >> and >> yeah, it's and one of the struggles too >> is I don't know I don't know how you do it like this goes to like even sponsoring like events. It's like how do you measure ROI like for the company you know >> that uh yeah that's very like I said depends on the company. So as a de you can come with some propositions that probably may or may not may or may not make sense for anybody. uh sometimes you can get pulled into like very difficult uh conversation about metrics and how do you prove your uh basically engagement and whatever you're doing you know how do you prove your productivity and it could be so difficult to prove that right because you go to a conference and this is what I want because I was talking about this with some colleagues from other companies and we're like sharing feel like metrics for de they don't really make sense why because you go to a conference you give a talk uh then the organizers they won't enforce that feedback right so they won't enforce for every participant to write down the the feedback and if they do provide feedback the participants will be not necessarily very accurate right because many of them they don't even pay attention they you know they they will forget a lot of things they they won't be in the in the moment or they will uh definitely give a very subject subjective feedback right based on what you address, who are you at the topic, etc. And that will reflect on you and your work. So if you go with a specific feedback from the conference, you know, hey, what did you do? Oh, so from 400 people, I got three uh opinions >> and two of them were like me, you know, probably they didn't get it. Uh then that that doesn't play well with your um with your feedback and the metrics basically are non-existent. Uh so we need to be very smart how we create them and how we uh brainstorm them inside the company. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean it makes me think a lot of it should be more seen as like brand marketing, you know. Um I forget what it was called. I actually like saw somebody talk about it recently, but like there's a whole statistical thing with like let's say you like market over multiple channels. Like it's hard to know what actually caused the person to like decide or how to attribute you know like if you do like ads at the example was like ads at the Super Bowl plus ads on TV and this like what actually like contributed to the person actually buying you know it's a complicated statistical thing but um but yeah no and um I wanted to I I we talked a bit about it before the talk but I wanted to talk a bit about the open telemetry stuff because like I'm I I want to know more. I'm learning about it right now and I think it'd be really interesting for people to to know more about it um as well because I I think this is like something that's like gaining some traction like a lot of the cloud providers are now like moving a lot of um their their uh they're offering solutions to basically ingest the this kind of open telemetry. Uh it's a schema I guess. Um >> it's a framework. It's a framework. It's a standard. Yeah. >> Standard. Exactly. >> Yeah. So why don't you explain a bit about what it is? Um for everyone. Yeah. >> Yeah. Absolutely. No. Uh yeah, I'm really happy that you asked and it indeed is like one of the most popular uh open source project and CNCF projects out there. um um like we say like to say in the in the branch is the second most uh famous after Kubernetes because it is uh because a lot of vendors uh are chipping in and that's really really good. Uh so just to give like a proper definition like open elementary it's um vendor neutral open-source observability framework uh and it's used for instrumenting, generating, collecting uh and exporting telemetry data. So the telemetry data we refer them to observability signals you know like logs, metrics, traces. Um so if you are working in observability like I I been working with observability for a long time because you know I'm I worked as an S sur. So if you did some kind of observability work you know oh yeah yeah this is uh uh open telemetry. Um so it might might ring a bell but obviously if you come from a diff different you know uh tech domain is like oh I don't really need observability or I don't really work with it. Yeah, I mean I have a my own kind of like DevOps platform. So I'm very excited about it because like it's on AWS but AWS now kind of supports uh open telemetry and a lot of uh tools and providers now kind of like either ingest it or emit it. Um, so it's it it's good that we have like this standard uh and and for people that >> like she like Diana was saying like it's it's about getting all the information like if you have stack you know crashes, bugs like logs uh you know like stuff you would use let's say sentry for as a good example like I I like sentry a lot. So like sentry is just like one part of like observability right like it's the the errors but you want they're trying to bring it all together now but basically um >> you want to see the logs and all of that. So having a standard so that everybody can communicate properly uh and share that information without having to deal with like log formats and and all that stuff cuz like each at least I've been assistant in for a long time and every every little uh server of some sort has its own log format and you have to like you you can change them to the standards but they nobody just standardizes on the same thing like by default like you have to do all this work to like make things like work together. So I think that's really important. >> Exactly. Yeah definitely. I mean I think this is the the general why people well not people but us as engineers and also the vendors are really excited because finally you know we can stay on the same level and ship basically the same like the data and we see them like you know oh yeah yeah it's there it's the same standard. Uh but obviously the the back end will will differ in the front end as well. um like in the sense that you'll still need a database to store your data uh your telemetry data and you'll still need that visualization tool you know like for example to see dashboards and uh visualization and everything like that and that obviously open telemetry doesn't provide you know so you're still going to have some vendor lock in in that sense because you need to choose a tool right so where I'm going to store it and where I'm going to see it it's always going to be different vendors uh but open telemetry it's um yeah it's the bridge right so at least we are making progress so that's pretty cool >> how did you get involved with it >> uh right yeah no so I I heard about it I think like couple of years back uh and I wanted to actually work with it in production because I was still an engineer then like an S sur um and I got involved actually with the open telemetry community because uh Linux foundation was looking for some observability uh subject matter experts to create the first certification uh the first exam for open telemetry. So I signed up and uh I started to uh work with them. Um and like this slowly like uh within I think eight or nine months we created this certification and for me it was like the perfect beginning because I started to read more documentation. Um I started to like uh communicate with with the maintainers with the community uh and find out like okay what what's this about what is this standard about what are the concepts um and also creating this like um content for the exam you know like uh the the questions and everything uh and it got published after like nine months uh and it's available um and then I started to p open telemetry the company I was in like okay you want to uh I don't know you want to switch from your vendor that uh for your from your APM vendor let's say uh you have this application data and you want to use it why don't you use open telemetry because you know it's a standard it's open source you'll reduce cost etc so for me it was a perfect um example and we did that uh it went fine but we didn't adopt it in production because NY you know so companies uh it depends also on the on the company uh magnitude how how much time they want to input in in a specific project. uh it was very interesting for us like engineers but uh from a company's perspective at that time it was a bit too too risky right uh >> yeah absolutely >> yeah I mean open telemetry is still not uh stable >> yeah yeah exactly yeah I mean even right now I would say it's but I think >> the traction's there like I said like I I went from like >> I think I feel like in the last year it gained a lot of traction uh like lots of cloud providers are are building into it now. Um like it I think I think it's an important standard. It was just Yeah, I was curious how you you got involved uh in that. It's like it's always like interesting these stories. Um cuz you know like how do you get involved in open source? It's always like it's always a different reason or or whatnot for for everyone. Um but it makes s you were talking about elastic right when you're like uh yeah yeah exactly I was an SR at Elastic um and uh I got when I was at Delassi I got in um uh the conferences like the tech conferences so this is when I started my first gigs uh and like around the same time I started with this open telemetry uh community so I I joined the the certification contributing and Then I stayed in the game, right? So I stayed in the open telemetry community. I was like I POC open telemetry for another company. Uh then I stayed in the game. So I like the community. I started contributing more on the non-codes part uh afterwards. So I'm I'm right now I'm a triagger in the documentation. Uh so I'm part of the community. Uh I do a lot of talks about open telemetry. I even gave a talk recently last week uh about how developers can use um open telemetry to observe their own codes locally um and instrumented a bunch of applications with that. So that was really interesting. Um yeah, so I'm I'm staying there. I'm staying in the game like no matter what like even if some companies like it or not or if they even if they want to adopt it, it's uh for me it's pretty interesting because it's a standard and it will stay. >> Yeah. that that's what keeps you motivated to contribute and work on it. >> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Because it's just like Kubernetes or Prometheus. Uh I mean we all know it's doing a good job you know people will use it and even though right now uh open telemetry still needs to do a bunch of u steps to graduate uh the the vibe is definitely there. So um even though if we don't want to admit it >> it's we cannot ignore it right. So yeah. >> Yeah. Uh yeah. I mean I think I think the more interoperability we have uh the better. Uh I think I think everybody can appreciate the value of like standards and stuff. um uh especially developers now like there we're a bit more aware of it because there's a lot of standards around AI that are coming out really fast. Um and I think it's it's good to to do that. Um because otherwise it's too it's a mess, right? Like if you want to if you want to like you know with AI just like something simple like skills, right? like everybody deciding like skills is going to be a thing and everybody builds for the the same kind of format and idea and and things there's also the MCP but having that also for um observability I think is super important because at the end of the day um we need to know what's happening in our software we need to know what's going on right so uh not everybody could you you know you cowboy code at elastic. So you you need some way to get information out um and see it. So uh I think that's really great. Um we're going to have to start wrapping up here. I don't know if there's uh there's anything else you wanted to um talk about or mention around open telemetry or um or all the topics we talked about. >> Yeah. No. So about open sator. Yeah, that's the that's totally fine. So it's like what I always wanted to share with with you know like uh people listening to us is like contributing to open source is really great because obviously we discovered the community I stayed even after I left Elastic. So like I said at the beginning right now I'm with Victoria Metric uh and Victoria Metric is focused on open source uh and is is really really nice that you know I expanded you know like couple of years ago or three years ago I never made a contribution in open source and right now I'm like fully contributing like like uh actively um and it doesn't necessarily mean that you can only contribute with a code uh you can also do non-com contributions you can give talks like you and I give talks uh and you could share a bunch of uh a bunch of experience from your side and there is always um you know uh enriching you know there is always room for improving and enriching. Um so yeah um thank you so much Carl for having me. I think those were my last words of wisdom. >> Yeah. Where can people find you Diana? Oh yeah. Uh they can find me on LinkedIn on blue sky um or based or Twitter or X whatever. Okay. So >> and what are the two podcasts? You said you were like hosting two podcasts. So what are those those two podcasts? >> Totally. So uh I'm hosting a Devx talks podcast. Uh in this one it's all about open source or non vendor page. So just like you and I just chatting right now. Uh I I have a I had a bunch of uh invites and I'm always looking for guests. Uh even if you have like a cool story to share or like a very interesting path in in tech uh yeah please ping me. Uh and the other one is on telemetry talks. So we are talking about observability. Um and the same we don't want to wing it on a specific vendor. Obviously we started with some Victoria metrics uh concepts but then uh moving along to non- vendor. So actually focusing on open telemetry uh and my guests are going to be from also other companies uh and trying it's more technical right so we we're trying even to we go more in deep dive we we're trying to find out you know how to instrument an application for open telemetry etc etc so for there as well if you have a cool story if you're an engineer or you want to share something that you did very cool with open telemetry or observability in general we can definitely chat. >> That's great. Well, thanks you. Thank you again, Diana. >> Thank you so much, Carl. Thank you for having me. >> We would like to thank omnisend.com and woocommerce.com for supporting Open Channels FM. Till the next time, take care., Neurodiversity, DevRel Careers & OpenTelemetry, youtube.com, 01kwyn147f1v4cn36tps8msefq.