October 2025: Jen Hatmaker's ‘Awake’  ## Metadata - Author: [[YouTube]] - Full Title: October 2025: Jen Hatmaker's ‘Awake’ - Category: #articles - Document Tags: [[video-notes]] [[youtube]] - Summary: October 2025: Jen Hatmaker's ‘Awake’ - URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deHctJQOqVs [Music] All right, you guys. Today's conversation is super special. I feel like I am sharing one of the most precious people with you and most important parts of this story. the singular person who knows awake as deeply, thoroughly and intimately as I do. I am bringing you today a conversation with my editor, Lauren Wine. And she's not just my editor, she is been my collaborator. She was my sounding board. She was my counselor all along the way. She was my advisor, my mentor, um my guide. She's got an incredible gift. Her editing skills are so profound and um she's helped so many authors write the best version of their story, whatever it is. And that certainly includes me with Awake. She sat with me through every draft, every change, every doubt, every fear, every every single every moment of the of this story, of the writing of this story, she has had her fingerprint on. Um, it just it wouldn't exist in the way that it exists without her. And so, I can't wait for you to hear her today. God, this conversation is so great. anybody who's interested at all in writing, you're going to also find this interesting cuz we kind of we get into the sauce a little bit, like what's it like behind the curtain. So, you're going to you're going to hear some like shop talk a little bit, but also we're going to talk about what it was like um to have this partnership together. And so, I'm delighted to welcome my brilliant editor and of course now my forever friend Lauren to the show. [Music] Um hello. Um I'm so delighted to put you on this show with me. Um you're normally behind the scenes. >> That's the kind of nature of your work. And I'm like, how about you get yourself on video and let's put this podcast out to 100,000 people. And you said yes. Thank you. Anything for you, Jennaker? [Laughter] >> I've already told everybody who you are, >> okay? >> What your deal is, your incredible credentials. Um, it is fun. I I I've saved it for the for the this moment when I'm with you, but we should tell our origin story like uh how we met. I'd like to hear it from you. >> Okay. It's embarrassing, but um this >> it's not. >> Okay, so I I will I will retell the story. Um back in 2013, um I have said this before, I was in a dark night of the soul. I had three small kids, young kids. I had a new job. I had a husband who worked overnight, was never home. Um it was a hard time. I felt like everything was falling apart and I couldn't do anything right. And my sister sent me one night she sent me she said you have to read this you will love it and it was a piece that you had written about um you know it it by the by March all parents have lost the will to live that that that piece right and I read it and I literally laughed so hard I cried and I had restored faith that like I am not alone. We are all falling apart. Nobody can do this but we can all do it. And it just kind of restore I just it put everything in order. And I wrote back to my sister and I said, "Oh my god, this is the funniest thing I've ever This is amazing. She's amazing. I should tell her to write a book." The hubris the hubris of me saying I should tell her like command this person to write a book. And my sister said, "You totally should." >> People love that stuff. And it was just and then I obviously looked you up and realized you had written all these bestsellers and I was the one living in a cave and I felt really stupid and decided to okay so she well whatever we will or we will never cross paths but I will continue to follow this person anywhere and I did and I just >> kept and I'm not like a person who reads I didn't read blogs I didn't follow people I didn't I just wasn't part of my life >> but I absolutely loved everything you had to say about everything. And honestly, when when things got hard for you, I like tuned in and I heard a frequency that was really that really resonated and I just felt you struggling through things in a very real way. And I, as you know, I would kind of send you DMs and whatever Instagram messages and I think they probably went into the void. But I but by the time Margaret Riley King, your amazing agent, reached out to me and said, "Hey, so I have a new client and she's writing a memoir. Her name is Jen Hatmaker." And I like fell off my chair and said, "Margaret, I have been waiting for this moment for more than a decade and I am not going to let it pass me by." Even though everybody else wanted this book too, I was like, "This will be my book." It just I became competitive in a way that I'm not. So anyway, >> and then we met. It was it was meant to be. It was meant to be. >> It was meant to be. >> Here's what I remember. So, you know, Margaret, I have I had changed to Margaret. I She This is the first book she has represented for me even though she has been waiting in the wings also for seven years. She played the long game. >> Yes. >> Um and it worked. And so, this was a whole new day for me. And I was going to be out of any sort of Christian imprint even under, you know, one of the big >> um publishers. This was going to be new new team, >> new different guard rails, >> which to say none. Um and new everything like a new way of writing, a new kind of book, a new level of permission. Everything about this experience is not old hat to me. This is this was a new iteration of publishing for me. And so when Margaret put out the proposal >> Mhm. and we just started going, let's see what happens. And then, you know, there was a response. And so, we knew like, okay, we're going to really have to >> we're going to have to sort through this interest >> cuz it was >> a lot of interest. >> So, we went to New York City, Margaret and I, and we set up and I don't even know if I've told my community this story. I can't remember, but we set up two days worth of meetings. We had 10 imprints to work with. And for anybody who's like, what is she talking about an imprint? And there's big big publishing houses. What are there five? >> And then even and then there's plenty plenty of others. I'm just saying there's the kind of the big five. But under each one of them, they have >> divisions essentially. So imprints. Um, so anyway, she just said, "We're gonna we're gonna take 10 meetings in two days." >> And we posted up at Hotel Chelsea. Uh, >> yeah, Chelsea Hotel. That's right. >> Chelsea Hotel. That's right. >> And really, we had meetings like on the hour every hour. It was bonkers. You were my first. >> That is insane. And when, you know, she's kind of coaching me through here's who's coming in, here's who's going to be with them, here's what they've published, here are whatever. >> Mhm. >> And when you and Joofi were about to come in, the two of you. >> Yeah. >> Um, and just for everybody listening, there were some teams that came in with eight people. >> Yeah. >> Like here's literally everybody on staff. Like this is everybody on payroll essentially. We brought the whole crew. And so you and Chopi came in and I remember I remember Margaret saying, "I'm really excited for you to meet Lauren because she is such an exceptional editor." And what she specifically said about you is, "Len has the best taste." >> That's so nice. >> And like what that signal to my brain was is that M >> you are in literature. You you are in the business of good books like not just a money grab or like a you know a shitty celebrity adjacent book that was garbage writing, you know, like whatever. like you have good taste and you are committed to putting >> like high quality books out in the world. I just remembered it. It zinged my brain because I knew I needed somebody who was elegant >> to help me get this book right. I knew it. I I didn't want somebody who just went, "She's got a lot of followers, >> you know, or she'll she'll bring a lot of book buyers to the table. We don't really care what she says, >> like it'll be good enough, you know, to sell through." I And then you sat there and you handed me all those printouts like that printed out on a >> your stalker print outs that you printed on a printer >> and put in a little in a little >> Yeah. little staple folder folder. Yeah. >> Staple folder. Here is all the things I have said to you or about you for the last decade. >> I know. >> And I was like this is it. >> This is it. And I >> I there is no way for me to overemphasize this, Lauren. >> I want to go back to that me >> and and kiss myself on the mouth for making the right decision. It was it was overwhelming to meet with 10 publishers in two days and everybody had big ideas and everybody had a lot of enthusiasm and it wasn't like somebody came in like I didn't want to be here, you know, that everybody was like up high. >> Yeah. and I made the perfect decision to come do this book with you, an avid reader. I I just cannot ever ever ever emphasize it enough. >> I don't even know what to say about that. I I I I am I am totally speechless. I actually barely thought we had a chance to be honest because I I but I really didn't. There was a part of me that was like, there is no way. There is no way she's going with us. But here we are. I mean, >> we called you or texted you or whatever to tell you, you know, after auction was finished and we're like, I we've made our decision. I think you were in London or you were going to London. >> I was about to go to London. Yeah, I know. >> You're like, I can't even respond to I said, Usually I I write very long, but like right now I have no words. I am like >> That's literally what you said. Like I I I'm I'm stunned. More later. God, I I just really and and I still I am still stunned and I am still actually like >> I still feel like this has been the most blessed experience. Just every single step of it. Every single step of it. Even from the beginning when we couldn't figure out how to like >> send each other attachments. >> Oh my gosh. >> Because we're both stuck in like 1940. But anyway, >> absolutely stuck there, the two of us. So, who can help us? I'm like, do you have a helper? >> Do you have Scrier? I'm like, what's Scriber? You're like, do you have this? No. Do you have How about Microsoft Word? >> Anyway, and Lauren, there was one point you were like, >> I think I'm just Tell me if I'm getting this wrong. I'm going to print out your submission, submitted manuscript. I'm going to write my notes in the margin and then I can >> scan those handwritten notes in the margin to you and then you can put the It was It was >> so hilarious. >> It was really not >> um >> but I got there. >> We got there. We got there. We didn't get there by being technologically savvy. >> No, >> but we got there. >> And you helped make this book so much better. like you found all the weak spots. You found them with this like radar that you have. Even like the smallest little things where you're like, "This needs a bridge. Um, this has too many words. This sentence needs to just go. Let it stand. Stop telling the reader what to think." And I was like, "Oh, God. This is why we are in this together." You made it so much better. >> I'm so That means so much to me. Also, what I realized is that one of the things that your book is about, which is about like shifting your like trusting yourself and trusting your body, I feel like that is how I edit. Honestly, I need I need I feel it. I every it's like a tuning fork and like I I sense when something is like we need more, we need less. It's physical and it's it's like you I'm also somebody who would like rather disavow my body and I just am like a brain running around. But um it it really I felt that read reading your book I could first of all there weren't that many things to do. It was an incredible piece of work when you when you wrote to me and said here's my show or something and I wrote back like I'm sorry this is like basically one of the most polished nearly perfect things I've ever read but so much for your show. Anyway, >> you you did say that. But then the places where you came in >> and subtle >> challenged me, pushed me. Yeah, it was subtle, but though they mattered like >> looking at those edits that you that you suggested and and put in the manuscript, it to use the word that I already used on you once, it just it made it more elegant. Um, my fatal flaw as a writer >> as a communicator in general, because this translates to being a speaker too, is I if I air on either side, I am a scunchch too much. Just a scunch. I just go five degrees past appropriate. >> Five degrees. But that five degrees is what feels hyperbolic, right? And it was that 5° that you said, let's pull this back down >> to 3° >> and let's put let's go to 3° and let's take out some of that um the bigness of some of the language you're choosing, the words you're using, the exaggerated nature of what you are saying. Let's say it in a way that's a little bit more elegant. And your tuning fork is so bizarre to find those spots. You're good at it. But I have to say the fact we need I needed you to go to fives to get you to three because most people are afraid to go to three so they stay at like zero >> and it's dull. >> So I honestly what drew me to you from the beginning was your willingness and ability to kind of like go to the edge and jump off it. And so sometimes we need to like reel you in a little bit, very little bit, but honestly it's most people don't go there. And that's why your voice is so refreshing. Truly. >> Um, >> oh, it's so interesting for me to talk to editors. I Your skill set is so specific. >> I know it's so weird. >> It's such It's such a honed skill. When did you >> When did you know at what point did you know not only am I good at this, but I want to do this. I like this. I like taking somebody else's thing and like tightening it up to its best version. >> I think I only knew I was good at it when writers that I admired so much told me I was helpful to them. I don't think I thought I was good at it until I was told I was good at it by people I thought like were gods, you know, and so if they're going to give me that compliment, then I'm going to take it. But um it it's really a matter of also it's it's a matter of like channeling the writer, being inside the writer's head, but also having a distance. Like I I get I feel like I'm trying to get inside your head, but also be me at the same time so that I can offer that like tiny constructive criticism that is hard to access if you're the creator. Like I can't be the creator, but I can get close to you and just kind of fine-tune it a little bit. But yeah, I I think I only understood it when other people told me I could do it because that's how some people work. >> Yeah, >> that is how some people You're right. Like we have to somebody has to hold up a mirror >> in order for us to see. >> Yeah. There are examples in awake of I was I was when I was like looking back through the book there are examples in this book where people did that for you and and and and that I think that really helped you too in your awareness of who you were and who you could be right. >> Oh my god that is so true. Like my dad comes to mind. >> Yes. Yep. that even though it's so tricky because I mean, you know, you've been through this whole story with me, but it was so it's such a weird needle to thread because I was raised in a sort of cultural environment, my like religious cultural environment that really like hit >> hard in my psyche and did some damage and I've had to undo. But at the same time, it was so weird because my home, my family, my parents were not dogmatic like that, right? >> So, I didn't have this like home environment that was as rigid and fear and shame based as my church environment. >> And so, >> I'm so grateful for that because my dad, even though he was like deeply a part of that world, like literally on staff, >> right? But but different from all those other pastors, >> right? >> Was a foil for it constantly. >> Totally. >> Because >> I mean here he's got three daughters and we are being raised in a Southern Baptist environment where women have no authority >> and the men are in charge of everything. And he's got three daughters and he is gassing us up as if we every one of us is destined to be the president of the United States. you know, like he just thinks we're the best things that ever and and he blew through the limit the gender limitations in his own environment >> to respect women, to elevate women, to honor their gifts. And I'm watching that the whole time going >> my own dad >> um breaks these these norms and these rules of this this so he held up a mirror to me. That's a very long way of coming back to what you just said, >> which is saying >> this is what I see in you. >> This is what I see you're capable of. >> And my dad's voice mattered more >> ultimately. >> And but and there's I mean I your dad actually stands out as such a tremendous character throughout this book. I know he's not a character, he's a person. But um I I was also thinking of you have a teacher who after you learn that poem, your teacher says, "Words matter, Jen." And you have a gift. >> Oh my gosh. >> Right. >> My god. >> Mrs. Palmer. Mrs. Palmer. >> It's so true how I mean, hell, I was 16 years old when she said that to my face. >> Words matter. You have a gift for words, so use it. just got the chills >> and I am 51 years old still talking about that. >> I mean you know what >> this matter it matters. I I listen I think I I had a similar experience in my life like I I and also and then the woman I think her name was Lauren. All great people are named Lauren in your life who said who said to you you have a power right you or when you first taught for the same for when you were first tell can you tell retell that story. My god. >> For her, this was probably a throwaway sentence. >> Totally. >> Like there is a 0% chance she remembers ever. >> Yep. >> That that did not impact her the way it impacted me. And it was this was super super early in the very earliest stages of me going, I might have something to say and the gifts to say it. Like I hadn't written a book yet. like I I that was pre any of this, but it was this dawning awareness of like what was bringing me to life, what was making me feel energized, which was leading and teaching women and hosting these like conversations that are so relevant to all of us. And >> so, I mean, at that at the bare beginning of that, this girl I have never seen before. I'd never even met her. Her name is Lauren. And she comes into our little group that I had been sort of shephering along. I'm talking like in a living room. I don't don't get the idea like I'm on a stage like in a little living room. And she joins us for a night and just sends me this email. This is before we had phones. We we weren't millionaires. Like none of us had phones back then. >> We barely had email. Like email was dial up. >> Um but she sends me this this email through to my AOL email address, which you know I still use. And she just said, it was so short. She was just like, "I really like you." And she said, "You're funny and smart and you have a power about you." And I mean, that's really all she said. It was that short. It was just like she dashed it off. I'm sure of it. I You could have blown me over with a feather. I just something about it like her saying that to me. This is I don't know you, but this is what I see in you. Smart, funny, powerful. I'm like, what? >> I >> like the mirror. That was a mirror again. Here I still am talking about it. >> But I but but but again we need we need that. We need sometimes we need to be you know you also talk about how at one point you say in in the war of like me versus me, nobody wins because that you're very hard on yourself. You have a very very critical inner voice. And probably part part of that came from growing up in you know a a purity culture and patriarchal society and all of that and and part of it I don't know who knows it's could just be personality right >> but but so I mean I think I have that too for all of the same for very similar reasons but when you hear somebody >> tell you something that you didn't like maybe you sensed about yourself but you didn't quite know it's not it it just it it it ignites or or it just confirmed something that maybe you sensed were there was there but this the voice was too small because the other voices were too louder or too were just were louder. >> Who was it? Who said something to you that stuck in your craw that you're still thinking about? >> I am just thinking like I I'm again I had a sixth grade teacher who who gave me a journal at the end of the year and she said um also something like you have a gift for words and never lose your interest in everything. And I thought oh do I have an interest in everything? >> What a good thing to hear. >> Maybe I do. And I think ever since well I've become an editor and I do I work on lots of different books in all different categories and I I think do maybe I do have an interest in everything I maybe I am kind of not everything but you know it it gave me an idea about myself that I didn't have before and it it validated something that I didn't know you know >> such a great way to put it cuz she didn't >> she didn't speak it into existence you were already like that but she gave you right >> the idea about your own self who's self-aware in sixth Great. No, >> that is not something we have the capacity to even grasp >> is self-awareness. When these teachers like a lot of teachers listen to this show, >> yeah, >> teachers, heads up, here are me and Lauren >> telling you about our middle school >> from the future. >> These little sentences you say into your sentences, your students ears about their gifts, about their she praised your curiosity. What a beautiful thing to notice about you. That you were curious and interested in the world. Yes. And here you are literally fulfilling that is your career. I'm just saying teachers, you you waste no words when you tell your students something beautiful that you see about them. Those are not wasted. >> That's totally true. That's really right. >> I know. Anyway, thank you for letting me just string this along. Like I I have a thousand other questions. And here's another thing I want I would love to hear you talk about. >> Yeah. I'd love because you mentioned this earlier. I want people to kind of hear the scope of your work. Can you talk about some of the books that you have worked on that meant a lot to you that something that that writer then spoke into your life that you went wow um I whatever it is like again you're that you have run such a gamut >> of genre of style of type like >> you know that I have like instantly forgotten every book I've ever worked on now that you've just asked me that but um I'm sure I That is what >> this is exactly when people are like, "What are you reading right now that you love?" And I'm like, "I've never read. >> I mean, I don't read. I don't >> I literally have never finished. >> I'm illiterate. That's right. I can't totally I feel right now. I'll just I mean, I'll just mention a few and then we're going to actually have to talk about your book because that is >> We kind of are already. No, I know. We kind of are. >> I know. Um but um yeah, I I so I worked on a book called Maybe You Should Talk to Someone by Lori Gotautle, which was I think a very >> important book in terms of showing people how therapy what therapy can do and why it's not it doesn't have to be scary and how it can be transformative, but it's a brilliant I think and in incredible incredible book. >> Um >> I put that book in my book club in the book club. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Of course you do. Of course you do. >> I But but I but I know I wasn't thinking of that when I said it, but but yeah. I mean, so I I I think that was >> um one of the >> Oh, so good. Um such a good book >> really. And there's a there's a also a memoir called Wild Game by Adrienne Broaddor that I think is just one of the most incredible um account. It's I think it's actually a perfect book. It's an account of a mother do a very very extreme motherdaughter relationship that is shocking but beautiful just incredibly beautiful >> right now >> wild game >> wild game um and god so many more I did I actually I did another I don't know why these are all memoirs but this memoir called becoming duchess gold blat which it's very hard to talk about because it's um but this was a book actually this was one of those books that I was again having like a dark night of the soul and working with this person on >> her book and everything that the book was about kind of brought me back to myself. Some some of these books bring me back to myself. I have to say I have like a selfish vested interest in them because whatever is being worked through in the book >> is actually helping me work through something too. I think it's like therapist >> still a person, >> right? It's like transference and counter transference. It's like the therapist is part of the you know they get helped too. Anyway, there's many many more, but um >> so many they're all eluding me. >> Like >> you have put your hand to so many incredible books in this world and >> Well, I think I can come I can come up with a whole list of it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, of course you can. Like >> I'll type it out later. >> You're do that. We'll send you a list of this um podcast. I will send you a list include a list of your your specific recommendations. It's like I will You're just doing what you're meant to do in the world. >> You really are. >> In in my best days, I feel that way, you know? >> I mean, same. >> Yeah, I know. >> And don't ask us on our bad days, >> right? No. >> Um, on bad days, I'm like, why am I a writer? I hate books. I hate literature. I hate readers. I hate reading. >> I know. I know. >> Like, don't catch us on a dark day. >> Um cuz we don't mean it. We're just tired, >> right? And that happens to everybody, you know? And then and I think it's cyclical and then you come back to it. You have like it's it's just how it is. >> Um >> but I I do I I I think people really want to hear about you in the book. So I think we should Do you think we should just >> get to Okay, >> let's ask a couple of questions in here. Like people do like to see behind the curtain like >> tell us how the sausage is made here. So that's what I want to talk about really like I I so so we talked about how >> you know we I came to be the publisher of the book but then >> when you submitted um I mean I I am I'm curious how you felt like when you when you yielded the pages to me like what was your feeling like did you feel like >> wow I feel really raw and vulnerable and I put that all out there or did you feel like I I don't know how did how did it feel to to like to cuz you're alone with it for a long time or you know with you're with your trusted circle or whatever and then you put it out there. It's really a vulnerable thing to do especially with this situation and we'll get to the writing of it in a minute but like >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I don't know. Yeah, that's such a good question. Of course, that you alone would kind of know how to ask because at the at the moment of submission, there's two people, me and you. >> That's it. >> We don't have the people in it yet. Like, it's not the sales team yet. We're not talking about, you know, Elana and the publicist yet. Like, it is me and you, the only people occupying that moment in time. And I remember I mean you're making me think of this. I'm like going into my body to remember it. I because I had never written like this before. I mean in format. >> Yeah. >> I had never written in vignettes, right? >> I had never >> I had never written um in um present tense no matter when the thing happened. Right. Right. Right. >> So I mean even if it was a 35year-old memory, I wrote it in present tense. >> Right. Right. >> So the the tense um I had never held so much back in terms of drawing conclusions >> about everything. I'd never really just laid a thing on the page and been like, >> I'm not gonna >> tell you how to think about I'm not going to tell you what I think about this. I'm not going to tell you what I learned from it. I'm not going to tell I'm just going to tell you what happened. So, because all of that was so unfamiliar to me, I remember thinking when I sent it to you like >> this is genuine. >> I have no idea if this has worked. >> I don't know if this is working. I don't I don't know if this is going to deliver the story right. I don't um I don't know if you're going to receive it, not just as an editor, but as a reader >> in the way that I meant for it to go. >> I just had no idea cuz I I've all of that was new to me. And so I just kind of remember like wanting to bite my nails >> that you had it like my brain was like she is reading this right now. Um, and forcing myself not to like constantly refresh my emails just to see if you had had a thought yet. Like, Lauren, I did not know if you were going to come back and be like, "We need to restructure this right. >> We and you could have you could have been like, "This isn't doing the thing." And so, I I was really nervous when I sent it into you. I mean, it's so funny because from the beginning I I I thought your structure was brilliant that like we the the the end, the middle, the beginning, which I mean was there from the get-go and I mean I'd love to hear how you actually came up with that, but um >> that was there from from the from the get-go and it just was such talk about elegant. was such an elegant way to encompass the, you know, the the movement of the emotional movement of your story. It just was, it's all right there. Like this, >> everything falls apart. You start at the at the hardest. You start in the ER, as I've heard you say, which is so amazing. >> Then you take us through everything else. And then and then it's the beginning. It's like the life that starts afterwards. And it just it's just baked in. this hopefulness is just baked into the into the whole thing. But um let's talk I mean I I really another thing I've >> wait I want to give you credit for something. >> What >> um because again this is like the the >> the savvy editorial touch that you have. So yes, I had structured it in three big sections, you know, like you just described um the end, the middle, the beginning. >> In the original manuscript though, >> at the very front in the table of contents, I then listed, >> you know, every single vignette under each section like like chapters. So, you know, it would have said the end and then I had the 25, >> right? Right. just titles of each vignette >> and then you know turn the page theme >> and you were the one who came back and said >> I don't think that we list >> every vignette title in the table of contents I think we just go >> the end the middle the beginning >> right >> acknowledgements and I was like oh elegant >> yeah that was such a >> we're not even going to get muddied down into all that we're just going to leave it with that big sweeping structure. >> Yes. >> Without even like punching out the the pieces underneath. That was your edit and it was a good one. >> It was a really good one. >> I I just I I just wanted to put emphasis on that on those three things because I just think it really organizes the whole thing in such a beautiful way. Um, and and I want to also I want to give credit to Margaret for something because it's something that I even before I saw your proposal be I mean I kind of knew you were writing a book because I I follow you and I you had posted something >> about saying that you were working on something and that your agent had said don't leave anything for the swim home >> and I thought wow this proposal is going to be amazing. It didn't occur to me that I I would see it or that I could publish it, but I just knew it was going to be amazing. But so that that was I had never heard that advice, but that was really good advice. >> Like, >> oh my gosh, Lauren, I mean, I pinned that to the board and went, "That is my guide." >> Yeah, >> that is my guide. And there was the temptation >> to save something for the swim home was high. >> Like >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What do you Okay. I How do you interpret the swim home >> even? Like I kind of understand it, but like you know what I mean? >> Yeah. >> I think this is how I interpreted it. Um, my thought was if I write in a way that is prioritizing self-preservation >> so that no matter what happens, I will put this book out, but I have held back enough >> that I will mitigate the possibility of criticism. I will mitigate the possibility of misunderstanding. >> Um I will um shrink the truth into something that's a little bit less biting, a little bit more manageable, a little bit less disruptive. >> Um so that no matter what happens, >> I won't be out in the middle of the ocean without a life preserver when this thing hits. I will have saved myself a little bit. >> I will have protected the vulnerability and the exposure so much that I'd already gotten myself back to shore. >> And so to me, it came down to an >> um which toggle am I going to go? Am I going to be risk averse or am I going to be risk tolerant? >> Which way is it going to go? and saving nothing for the swim home meant I had to just get in bed with risk. >> I just we had to get married >> and get in bed together and swim our asses out to the middle of the ocean where we stayed. And so >> that felt terrifying >> that I think that I think you just totally nailed it. And and it's funny because when I you know when we were talking about the fact that sometimes you go to five and I dialed you back to three like sometimes going to five with the humor is like a defense you know it's like look like look I'm so funny don't look at what's real but but this was going this was going there >> in in a truthful honest just it was going there with the humor and it was going there with the truth at the same time. Yeah. You're not hiding behind humor. It's serving. It has to serve you. And it does. You You figured out a way to do it. Of course, there's that amazing line that I love, which is I absolutely wanted this book to be funnier, >> which I when you get there, that is just like that is really that was really a moment where you're like, >> "Yeah, >> you just >> I don't know." >> Yeah, I did. I kept thinking, I know how to take the worst thing and add enough levity to it that again, that would have been that saving something for the swim home. That would have been releasing the pressure valve enough. >> Yes. Right. >> So that nobody could take this all too seriously. Like nobody could um >> see that deeply >> into my story. Yeah. um into that level of like grief and dysfunction and recovery like >> um I I know how to do that >> and I thought to be honest as I started writing this that I would have done that more which is why when I got to the end of that vignette which was a really serious one and like really earnest literally my fingers just typed God I wanted this to be funnier I just sat there thinking what I've done is said something truer than I expected to. >> And and I'm not I don't have regret. I don't have regret. I'm so grateful that Margaret told me that. >> Yeah. >> Early on. >> And I kept going. Keep going. Well, so this actually this is another I think really important question which is um you know when this book was first announced it was erroneously referred to as a tell- all which was upsetting to all of us because that is absolutely not is the opposite of what this book is. I mean this book >> is not a tell all. It's actually not at all. >> Um yeah >> but but what was very important to you was honesty. not not telling it all but just but being truthful be and respecting other people's privacy. Now that is that is the hardest line to walk as when you're writing your own story because your own story is not your own story entirely. >> Yeah. Um, so and I think you have done the most incredible job of that and I was very attuned to it. Like I really if you were giving away too much or not giving I mean sometime I I felt very conscious the whole time like >> yes >> you know of of walking that line in a way that was fair to your reader, >> fair to yourself and also fair to the people in your life. Um, >> y >> how did you man how did you pull that off because that is truly a nimble thing to have done. >> You were helpful. I told you early on that that was my biggest fear. >> Yeah. and was overexposure. >> Um, including details that maybe while salacious and juicy >> and a pretty good hook >> um would ultimately harm our actual life that we live in. The these are not things we want the whole world to know, >> right? Um, but to your point, >> I also need to be fair to my reader. >> If I if I'm unwilling to write a me if I can't write a memoir that's truthful, don't write one. >> Right. >> That's if you're not ready to write it, then don't write it. >> Y >> um and so there is something in between. >> Yeah. >> That's that's appropriate. >> You helped me find that. There were several times when I had written something super cryptically. >> Yeah. And you were like, "You either need to say more about this or take it out." >> Yeah. >> And I was like, "You're right. You're right. I'm hinting >> I'm hinting at something, >> right? >> And that's not fair to the reader." Mhm. >> And then there were other times and you have done this both in the manuscript >> and also in my personal life as I am managing this story out in the world with a lot of >> characters in it as you have said and uh people have big feelings about this story being told. >> Yeah, >> people do and um you have managed in both spaces to say to me >> you should say less. M >> where I want to come in and explain and defend and and cite my sources and quote myself and you're like >> you don't need to do that. >> You don't need to do that. That's not your that is you don't you don't bear that responsibility, >> right? >> Um it's not your job to do. So you you've sometimes in this exact question you put you helped me put my foot on the gas >> and sometimes you helped me put on the put my foot on the brake >> and I needed both to get this right. >> Yeah. You I think you really got it right honestly. And I mean even I just look this the line where >> where you're talking about your kids and again I think that's another place where you just you are so respectful to them. I I do not I mean I I hope they think that. I really think that. Um and you say reader I will keep most of their story behind the firewall. It was as painful as you think. That one line is gives us more than any number of pages giving us details would have >> given us. >> Thank you for that. >> So I just >> Yeah. Um >> the day that I finally exhaled around this exact question. This is the only thing that was keeping me up at night. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Um was how will this feel >> to my family? How is this going to feel to the people closest to the story? >> And I'm that robbed me asleep for a year. And the day that Sydney, my daughter who's 25 >> Yeah. Yeah. said, "Mom, I've read every word and it's beautiful and I do not think you have overexposed us in any way. >> It's like the weight of the world go >> rolled off my shoulders." I put it to bed. >> That was it. That was the last day that I obsessively asked all my friends and early readers if they thought I had >> disclosed the right amount into the book. But was I fair? Was I honest? Did I Did I Did I take responsibility? I I stopped asking those questions the day that Sydney let me off the hook for that. So >> that's I mean that's incredible. Honestly, um really I I um >> let me just I I just made I just made all sorts of notes. I I wanted to well the the the question of I mean to go back to the structure just for a second when you talk about Yeah. how these these individual vignettes that um I I one thing I noticed in kind of looking at it again is that um you say in the opening scene you say I've lost the the opening scene which I if I'm assuming most people here have read the book is that is the er scene. It's the scene where you >> where everything kind of falls apart and at the end of that scene you say I've lost all sense of time and space. I feel my siblings throw their arms around me, but I am gone. And in the next in the very next scene, which is the the next vignette is dead rose, and it opens with, I am a high school freshman attending the first session of true love waits at my church. So, what's so interesting is that you end that last scene nowhere. You are gone. The time space continuum, you are swallowed up. You are in the abyss. And in the very next scene, you are located. I am a high school freshman. um you attending the first like there is this incredible immediiacy of every single scene and what I realized about it is is just like you said you don't you don't um tell anybody what to think and the structure is not it's not a logical structure like why does that scene follow that other scene but it's totally intuitive like there is something about the entire the way this whole thing is set up it's just these intuitive moments that build to an argument and a revelation and a change, a transformation. >> Um, which in my which in my mind and also the New York Times reviewer very her very brilliant beautiful review talks about how it's like a reclamation of of the body and a reclamation of your own intuitive self. >> Yeah. >> Um, and so I don't know. I don't even know what my question is except that do you feel like that is a fair did you I don't even was that your intention going in or is that just what the book became? >> Thank you um for that. >> I I had like the barest idea of of that rhythm. >> Yeah. and of bringing my reader with me. You know, the the small story inside about the divorce I did in order. So, those scenes unfold from July 11th, 2020 forward, >> but everything else in between it and around it is all over the It is sixth grade, it is young adulthood, it is freshman, it is um 31. Like I those are not linear at all. >> Right. Right. So I had that very halfass halfbaked right >> structure in my head knowing >> I didn't exactly know >> I didn't have a big grand plan like this memory I'm going to put here between these two things >> I I did a little bit of that by touch >> as I was writing it >> I'd get to the end of a scene Yeah. >> And just kind of get real quiet in my like soul and mind and memories >> and just kind of like deeply ask my own intuition. >> What was a building block >> of that response >> or of that feeling >> um of that moment like whatever it was like >> where did I get that idea? Mhm. >> Where did I get that suggestion? >> Right. >> And I got really still and started finding those like in the story of my life. You know, we don't just get to where we got accidentally, >> right? >> There's so many bricks that built the house. >> Yes. >> And so for me going, let's figure out what the bricks were >> was a real >> um adventure. >> Yeah. When I wrote the proposal, Lauren, like when I was just first developing it and I knew it was only going to be moments and memories, >> I think what I listed in the proposal when I was just thinking what what are some of the memories I'm going to reach for? I think I might have listed eight. >> That's how rudimentary it was, right? like dead rose. I had dead rose was on the early list of this that meant something to my story that that was formative. >> But the rest of it came to me >> as I was writing as I was sitting there as I went into my brain and went >> tell me something that we remember about this. Some of this I hadn't thought of in years and years and years and up it bubbled up. it just bubbled up and I just thought, "Oh my god, Miss Palmer, >> Miss Palmer, when she said that to me and you know, like, "Oh my god, Mr. Burman." >> Um, that was one of the earliest moments my body knew something that I did not know how to process through my brain. I hadn't thought of that in >> Right. >> 20 years, >> right? >> So, it was kind of a both hand >> um to your I don't know if I even answered your question. >> No. Um Yeah. I I um did you keep journals as a as a kid? Do you like didals back to like did you have >> do you do you still like what's what's your journal writing situation? >> I know. God, I wish I had those to refer to. >> So you didn't It's not like you looked up in your journal like, "Oh, what?" >> I didn't have them. >> You didn't have access to >> I I had them in my memory, >> right? >> Sorry. Let me turn that Hold on. Sorry, I've got a phone coming through even though I have that on do not disturb. Sorry about that. Okay. But I'll tell you what I what did serve as a record for me was and this was one of those times I was I've I was grateful yet again that the online community I lead has always been one where >> one of our shared values is telling each other the stories of our life. Like I have always just been very upfront online about the pieces of my >> like daily life and it never occurred to me to be any other way. I don't know how what else am I even doing on there but whatever. >> Right. >> So because my community had demonstrated such like safety and connection for so long. Mhm. >> I went back when I was writing. I kept two tabs open on my laptop that never closed the whole writing experience. One was Facebook, one was Instagram. >> Dialed back to 2020. So I scrolled scrolled scrolled and I f cuz some of that was lost later kind of in a fog. >> I went back and found every single thing I said, I wrote, things people said to me. um something I was experiencing that very day and I put it online and I had forgotten >> and I so social media acted like a diary for me. It acted like a journal giving me the pieces back to that >> horrible portion of the story. And then the side pieces that I kept open >> all my emails from that year. All my text history. >> That's how I went back and also constructed this is what my dad texted me. >> This is an email my friend sent me. This is what I had this this written account. >> Oh my god. of every meaningful little tiny piece that got me from here to here. And so, as you know, >> I included those all verbatim. >> Yes. >> Like I cut and pasted some of those right into the manuscript. This is exactly what my dad said. This is exactly what Amy said. This is exactly what Lara said. Um, this is exactly what my friend said. And so >> that turned out to be such a tool for me. truly extraordinary. I mean that and and I also love that in the in the audio version of your book that that you have everybody's voices actually like speaking in their own voices which is incredible. But but to go back to all of those people who are so important to to you to to this story. You have a line that every time I read the book I underlined and put a heart next to. Um one at a time just on time they keep coming. Sunlight making it to the forest floor. And that's about all the people in your life who just keep showing up and cutting through the the the thicket, the darkness. Um, you talked about your dad. Um, let's talk about your friends. I mean that is I I mean I'll tell I I just god what what a gift your personal I mean your greater community is a g I mean they they because of them you were able to reconstruct the whole story so through Facebook and through Instagram and all of that >> and what about the people in your own life these lanterns or or the the you know you've spoken of them as lanterns or the sunlight coming through the to the forest floor >> I just want to hear about the role absolute. They put on a master class on how to love your person, >> your friend through their worst moment. >> And they did it not just less anybody think how can I just >> make this go away for somebody that I love? How can I solve it for them? How can I You can do none of that. That is not real. That is not how pain works. That is not how recovery works. And it's not one big grand gesture. >> It's not like >> the one thing. Here's the one thing you can do that's going to make the biggest difference that it is. >> It is a hundred small things strung together. >> Yes. >> That pulls somebody up from the bottom of the ocean floor. And that's what my friends did. A hundred small things. And I included them in there. >> And of course, some of them were grand gestures. Um, but they were they just all involved non-stop proximity. And when I say that, most of us can come close to somebody in their grief, but that has a time limit. >> Other people's sadness can absolutely go past the moment. It is convenient for the rest of us, right? Like, >> okay, are we still here? Jesus. Like, let's get going. Let's get >> moving on. Yep. >> Moving on. Like >> this is kind of a burden for the rest of us. You know, this is you're kind of a bummer. Mhm. >> Um, my people stayed with me the whole time when I was decidedly a bummer and everything about my life was a bummer and I could not smile and I could not find joy and I was so overwhelmed and scared and catastrophizing every which way on everyone around me and um overwhelmed med and needing so much help. I remember cuz you know one piece of my story was having to >> become financially >> not just independent but savvy, >> right? >> Um and that was just a division of labor in our marriage that I had handed off um without any participation from me. And I mean, I remember having to call my friend Jenny and being like, "Can you teach me how to buy a car?" Like, I am a 16-year-old girl and she is my mom. I'm like, "Can you teach me how to buy a car?" Like, talk to me like I'm a kindergarter. Like, what's the first thing you do? Like I remember calling a friend and saying talk to me about this like taxes on my home. >> Is this a set amount? Like these are the things I am having to learn. I am having I'm I am a I'm a drain on everyone around me who for whom they're having to answer the most rudimentary questions. Um, and they just stayed and they stuck and they they literally loved me back to life. That is no exaggeration. >> It really it is a master class. That is they're in it in how how to love somebody back to life. Honestly, I >> it is it's dedicated to them the whole book. >> I know. >> And their names are all in there. And you mentioned this, but for anybody listening to this episode, in the audio book, >> I made Everyone's Life at Avid a living hell because I was like, "Guys, I have a vision for the audio book. All these people meant so much to this story and to me." >> And their words are all included per this whole conversation we just had. Like, I literally included their actual words. Can they each individually read their part of the manuscript in which I included something they said to me? Poor Sophie was like, >> "Oh my god, >> we can do it." I mean, I think we have 16 different people reading their parts in the book, which meant wrangling 16 people to get a clean vid, clean audio. These people don't do clean audio. They're normal people. They're like, "We don't know how to do." What do you mean? Like, >> absolutely. I made that so hard for everybody. And the ABBA team was like, >> "We think that this horrible idea is going to be worth it at the end." And it is. >> I It is. >> It is. The audio listeners coming in right now telling us that they sobbed through hearing my friends and family's voices on that audio saying what they said. I'm like, "Oh my god, Sophie, I'll buy you a car. Thank you so much for letting them do that." >> You won't recognize the car once you bought it, but you will buy her. >> No, I won't. That's a deep cut. That's a deep cut on the manuscript, and you're going to have to read it to know what she's talking about. >> One of my favorite scenes of all time as a car blind. >> So true and funny. Let's land this plane. What What's the last thing that we want to talk about here on this? >> What is >> Cuz you and I can do this for hundred hours. Okay. I guess I guess my I guess I I'll ask a big question, which is like if a reader walks away with just one truth from Awake, what do you want it to be? >> Such a great question. Oh my god, I have so many hopes for what I hope this book becomes in the life of any given reader. If I had to uplink it to one thing that I hope every reader walks away with, it is that. I don't care who you are, where you are in your life, what age you are, what environment you are in, how long something has been in place in your life, how deeply your own patterns have gone, how far you have already walked something to the end of the pier. No matter what you have lost or losing, no matter what is changing, regardless, you have the ability, the capacity, and the right to exercise full agency over your life. Your life is not happening to you. You can get yourself out of the passenger seat of your car and slide over to the driver's seat and drive your car. And you should. You should. You are the best source of your own wisdom. You know what you want. You know what to do. You know where you want to go. Um you know what needs to be done even if that thing is really really really really hard. Um, even if it is very very very very very disruptive, drive your car like you can do it. You are trustworthy. You are good and smart and wise. You are the best leader in your own life. Period. You are. So it doesn't matter how long you have let somebody else be in the driver's seat of your own story. Um, if you think my voice has been erased for so long I don't even have one anymore. Yes, you do. Yes, you do. And it is not too late to start using it. And that can start today for you. And I do not think it even takes a catastrophe to get there. It kind of did to some degree in my own life, but I don't think we have to experience crisis um to finally get out in front of our own story. I think you can just choose it. And if this book helps you choose it before crisis chooses you, I will be so thrilled. Um but even if you are sitting in the pocket of suffering right now which so many people are God so many of us are >> even there and even then the possibility in front of you is endless we get to build the rest of our story no matter what starting this very second this very second from this very moment on we're the architects so uh that is not a short answer but that is what I hope people walk away with Uh I Okay, last I'm going to say this last thing and then we're closing. >> Okay, >> I just finished. >> Yeah. >> Um doing the listener submitted >> voicemail episode for my podcast. Okay. >> Which where people can call in and leave a message and it was all awake centered. >> And one of the listeners, >> me and Amy, my podcast partner, were sobbing on the on when we recorded. >> I'm going to sobb already. We were sobbing. She tells us how much she has been suffering and sunk and it's so sad. She's like, "Nobody has known. I am I've lost 20 pounds. I'm sleeping all day. I've hidden it away from everybody." And she said, "I listened to Awake." And she said, "At one point, I I pressed pause and I picked up my phone and I sent a text to three or four people who loved me so much. And I said, "I'm in trouble. >> I need you. I need help." And she said, "One of them was at my home in 30 minutes with dinner and said, "Get take my hand. I'm going to walk you outside. Let's go to the grass." >> And she said, "They just all rushed in." And she goes, "I am out of paralysis. I am out of the darkness. I am out of silence and shame." And she goes, "I just reached out and went, people love me and I need to let them love me." I was just like, she just chose she chose a different path just like that on the spot. She decided to let people into her story and let them love her. And they wouldn't have had she not reached for her phone and sent them a text. And I'm like, we have agency. We get to pick the next thing that we do, the next thing that we say, um, the next way that we respond. So, >> I'm >> a heart. I am just gonna I want to quote you for the ending which is you wrote in in the very early pages I was acting purely on intuition which I figured out later was the most trustworthy character in the play. That is the most trustworthy character in all of our plays but we never it takes a long time for us to trust them. Trust it. >> Perfect. But >> what a perfect way to end. >> Um thank you. I want to thank you for walking this book into the light of day with me. It was going to take a special person to help me get it right. Um, it was going to take somebody who cares about story, people, readers, and good literature. And a lot of people care about some of those things, but not all. >> And you cared about all. And that is the reason that this book is exactly in the shape that it is in in the form that is in that includes what it includes and left out what it left out. You were an of everybody in the whole world my closest partner when it came to getting this book on the page. >> And so thank you for every single second you spent on this book which was considerable. said herbal seconds. >> Thank you for writing it and thank you for allowing me to be a part of it >> and for allowing me to restore my faith in myself. Honestly, thank you. >> Love it. Well, let's just enjoy this until we get to the next one, >> right? Let's enjoy the fruits of the labor for a while. Um, thank you. Thanks for doing this show with me. >> Thank you. It was an honor. Bye. >> Perfect. >> Perfect. Oh, you're so great. Are we off? >> We're done. We're done. God, you just >> made that so easy and fun. I don't even know what any of these questions were. We didn't even >> I We barely >> I knew we wouldn't need them. I knew we would just >> They were a great guide. They were an incredible guide. Truly. Um so, thank you. Thank you for for letting me do it. I really loved it. >> Um do I don't thank you for asking me about books that I've edited because I do not remember any of them. But I will come up with a list. That is perfect. We can just cut that. We'll edit that down. So, it just it's fine. It's totally fine. >> So, reasonable >> and um >> but yeah, send your list over. We'll absolutely like as a bonus. They will love it. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Okay. Bye. [Music] >> All right, you guys. Thank you for joining us for that. I love getting to highlight someone who has meant so much to this book. Um there there just isn't an awake without Lauren. And so anytime I get to introduce you to someone on this team of people who helped create this moment, this book, and this sort of space, it is occupying in the world right now. I'm delighted to do it. And she is as close as another human person could be to this story. So um she's fantastic. Also, we are going to include um a link with all with a a book recommendation list from Lauren. And believe me when I tell you, she is elegant and like Margaret said about her, she has good taste. This just consider this your must-read list. Anyway, feel so grateful for her. So grateful and so grateful for you. Um I want you to know that we are I am stunned and overwhelmed by your response to awake. Um, I have read every comment you have posted, every direct message you have sent. I am I see what you are writing on your own channels like on your own socials. I am I am I'm floored. I'm just I'm floored at what you are doing with it in your own life. How it is informing like your next thing, your next step. I I I thank you for reading. Thank you for buying it. Thank you for sending copies to the people in your life that you know would love to hear some of these words. It's just it's everything. It's everything. You're everything. It's the best reading community that exists. So, I love you so much and I love you, Lauren. Thank you for being on the show today. Um and thanks for listening you guys. Um, and I will see you next week. [Music], October 2025: Jen Hatmaker's ‘Awake’, YouTube, 01k9r1kttgz2446crz8fhed360.