PHP Foundation Director interview - CourtneyR.dev's 2nd Brain

PHP Foundation Director interview ![rw-book-cover](https://img.youtube.com/vi/x_KmbLtQiJ0/maxresdefault.jpg) 🔗 **Source:** [PHP Foundation Director interview](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_KmbLtQiJ0) > [!note]+ Document Notes > --- > tags: #php-foundation #open-source #community #developer-experience #language-governance > author: PHP Annotated > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_KmbLtQiJ0 > date created: 2024-12-21 10:30 > --- > # 🏷️ Title: PHP Foundation Director Interview - Elizabeth's Vision for PHP's Future > ## 🧰 Action Inbox > - [H1] Submit PHP talks to non-PHP conferences to increase visibility — community advocacy #php-foundation > - [H2] Create community resources for conference speakers and writers — foundation support initiative #community > - [H3] Establish clearer foundation-internals relationship processes — governance clarity #php-foundation > ## 🧭 Table of Contents > - [[#📝 Summary]] > - [[#📖 Main Content]] > - [[#🗒️ Notes]] > - [[#📚 References]] > - [[#🗣️ Paraphrase]] > - [[#📰 Newsletter]] > - [[#✅ Action Items]] > - [[#🧪 Hypotheses]] > - [[#📊 Methodology]] > - [[#❓ Questions]] > - [[#🔮 Future Research]] > - [[#💡 Implications]] > - [[#🧠 Learning Styles Assessment]] > - [[#📊 Accessibility Assessment]] > - [[#🌍 DEIB Assessment]] > - [[#✅ Logical Validity]] > - [[#🛡️ DARVO Analysis]] > - [[#🎯 Conclusion]] > ### 🔗 References > - [PHP Foundation](https://thephp.foundation/) > - [ElizabethN Photography](https://elizabethnsphoto.com/) > ## 📝 Summary > - Elizabeth, new director of PHP Foundation, shares vision beyond just language development > - Foundation focuses on PHP sustainability through paid contractors and broader ecosystem support > - Key challenges: improving PHP's perception, modernizing processes, strengthening internals-community relationships > - Elizabeth brings extensive open source experience from SourceForge, GitHub, and CHAOSS > - Bottom line: PHP needs holistic approach combining technical excellence with community advocacy and marketing > ## 📖 Main Content > The interview reveals the PHP Foundation's evolving mission under new director Elizabeth. Originally created to pay developers for language work, the foundation now recognizes that language sustainability requires ecosystem-wide support including newcomer experience, education partnerships, conference advocacy, and perception management. > Elizabeth brings experience from major open source organizations and emphasizes that no programming language exists in a vacuum. She identifies critical gaps in PHP's current approach: outdated website perception, limited community representation in governance, and disconnect between framework users and language development. > The discussion highlights tensions between community ownership benefits (no single company control) and governance challenges (unclear roadmaps, aging processes). Elizabeth advocates for strengthening relationships between internals and broader community while maintaining collaborative rather than controlling foundation role. > ## 🗒️ Notes > #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/x_KmbLtQiJ0?t=0) — [H1] Introduction and background > - Key idea: Elizabeth started with PHP in the "1900s" during ASP vs PHP era > - Evidence: "It was so easy to build things with. The community was fantastic." > #### ⏱️ [05:30](https://youtu.be/x_KmbLtQiJ0?t=330) — [H2] Open source community fascination > - Key idea: PHP community's collaborative nature without central management inspired career path > - Evidence: "Nobody was managing this team... you could just do it. You didn't need permission." > #### ⏱️ [12:45](https://youtu.be/x_KmbLtQiJ0?t=765) — [H2] Career journey through open source > - Key idea: Progression from SourceForge to GitHub to CHAOSS built community expertise > - Evidence: "GitHub from 2012 to 2018... there was like 125 people then" > #### ⏱️ [18:20](https://youtu.be/x_KmbLtQiJ0?t=1100) — [H1] PHP Foundation's core mission > - Key idea: Foundation created for PHP sustainability through paid development > - Evidence: "One person was getting paid to work on the language... that's concerning" > #### ⏱️ [25:15](https://youtu.be/x_KmbLtQiJ0?t=1515) — [H1] Language thriving requires ecosystem approach > - Key idea: Technical excellence alone insufficient; need users, education, perception management > - Evidence: "Nothing exists in a vacuum... making sure there are users around that want to use PHP" > #### ⏱️ [32:40](https://youtu.be/x_KmbLtQiJ0?t=1960) — [H2] PHP website perception problem > - Key idea: Outdated website creates incorrect assumptions about language vitality > - Evidence: "That has come up quite a few times... if someone comes to the page and it doesn't look updated" > #### ⏱️ [38:50](https://youtu.be/x_KmbLtQiJ0?t=2330) — [H1] Conference advocacy strategy > - Key idea: Community should flood open source conferences with PHP talks > - Evidence: "People keep submitting PHP talks... they don't get accepted... We should flood them" > #### ⏱️ [45:30](https://youtu.be/x_KmbLtQiJ0?t=2730) — [H2] Foundation-internals relationship needs clarity > - Key idea: Current prioritization process lacks transparency and clear communication > - Evidence: "We need to be clearer about how we do prioritize things... I have some questions" > #### ⏱️ [52:10](https://youtu.be/x_KmbLtQiJ0?t=3130) — [H1] Governance challenges with community ownership > - Key idea: Community ownership prevents corporate control but complicates unified roadmaps > - Evidence: "Blessing and a curse... no one company can shut it down... difficult to portray unified roadmap" > #### ⏱️ [58:45](https://youtu.be/x_KmbLtQiJ0?t=3525) — [H2] Framework influence in language decisions > - Key idea: Major PHP frameworks have minimal voice in language evolution despite driving adoption > - Evidence: "Biggest frameworks driving PHP's popularity have virtually no say in how language evolves" > #### ⏱️ [1:05:20](https://youtu.be/x_KmbLtQiJ0?t=3920) — [H1] Growing pains from PHP's evolution > - Key idea: 20-year-old processes may not scale for today's larger, more diverse community > - Evidence: "Process that worked 20 years ago... language was much smaller community... might not be sufficient" > #### ⏱️ [1:12:30](https://youtu.be/x_KmbLtQiJ0?t=4350) — [H2] Open source generational transition > - Key idea: Aging contributor base requires intentional onboarding for sustainability > - Evidence: "Graying of open source... we have to create space where people want to come" > #### ⏱️ [1:18:15](https://youtu.be/x_KmbLtQiJ0?t=4695) — [H1] Foundation's collaborative stance on technical decisions > - Key idea: Director avoids public technical positions to prevent perception of control > - Evidence: "I don't want to take over. I want to support and help and collaborate" > ## 📚 References > - [PHP Foundation Website](https://thephp.foundation/) > - [CHAOSS Project](https://chaoss.community/) > - [Elizabeth's Photography](https://elizabethnsphoto.com/) > - [Alfred P. Sloan Foundation](https://sloan.org/) > ## 🗣️ Paraphrase > - PHP Foundation's new director Elizabeth brings extensive open source community experience and views language sustainability as requiring ecosystem-wide support beyond just technical development > - The foundation faces governance challenges balancing community ownership benefits with need for clearer processes, unified roadmaps, and stronger internals-community relationships > - Elizabeth advocates for proactive PHP advocacy including conference submissions, education partnerships, and perception improvements while maintaining collaborative rather than controlling foundation role > ## 📰 Newsletter > 🚀 **PHP Foundation's New Vision Goes Beyond Code** > Elizabeth, the PHP Foundation's new director, shared an inspiring vision that extends far beyond paying developers to work on PHP core. Her message: language sustainability requires supporting the entire ecosystem. > **Key insights from the interview:** > - PHP needs better perception management and modern presentation > - Community should actively submit talks to non-PHP conferences > - Foundation will provide resources for community advocacy > - Governance processes need updating for today's larger community > This holistic approach recognizes that technical excellence alone isn't enough—PHP thrives when newcomers feel welcome, educators understand its value, and the broader tech community sees it as modern and relevant. > **What you can do:** Submit PHP talks to general tech conferences, write about modern PHP capabilities, and help welcome newcomers to our ecosystem. > Resources: [PHP Foundation](https://thephp.foundation/), [Learn PHP](https://learn-php.org/), [PHP: The Right Way](https://phptherightway.com/) > ## ✅ Action Items > #### Community > - Submit PHP talks to general open source and tech conferences > - Write blog posts showcasing modern PHP capabilities for broader audiences > - Create welcoming onboarding experiences for PHP newcomers > - Support local PHP user groups and community events > #### PHP Foundation > - Establish clear communication channels with broader PHP community > - Develop resources for community advocates (talking points, presentation guides) > - Facilitate stronger relationships between internals and framework communities > - Consider modernizing PHP homepage and official presentation materials > #### Governance Evolution > - Review and potentially update RFC voting eligibility criteria > - Create pathways for framework maintainers to have voice in language direction > - Establish clearer foundation-internals relationship processes > - Develop 5-year roadmap through community collaboration > ## 🧪 Hypotheses > - Active conference advocacy will improve PHP's perception in broader tech community > - Clearer governance processes will increase corporate confidence in PHP's future > - Better onboarding experiences will attract more contributors to PHP ecosystem > - Foundation-facilitated communication will bridge internals-community gaps > ### 📊 Methodology > - Track PHP talk acceptance rates at general tech conferences over time > - Survey companies about factors influencing language adoption decisions > - Measure newcomer retention rates through improved onboarding programs > - Analyze communication effectiveness through community feedback mechanisms > ### ❓ Questions > - How can PHP governance evolve while maintaining community ownership benefits? > - What specific resources would most help community advocates promote PHP? > - How might framework maintainers gain appropriate voice in language direction? > ### 🔮 Future Research > - Comparative analysis of governance models across programming language foundations > - Developer survey on barriers to PHP adoption in modern development contexts > - Impact assessment of advocacy initiatives on language popularity metrics > ### 💡 Implications > - Practice: Community members should actively advocate for PHP beyond technical circles > - Policy: Foundation may need expanded role in ecosystem support and advocacy > - Education: PHP education partnerships require active cultivation and support > - Governance: Current processes may require significant updates for community scale > ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment > Reading level estimate: Grade 12 > #### 👀 Visual learners > - Present: Interview format with clear speaker identification > - Improve: Governance process diagrams, ecosystem relationship charts > #### 🔊 Aural learners > - Present: Full video interview with natural conversation flow > - Improve: Audio-only version, key quotes highlights > #### 🗣️ Verbal learners > - Present: Rich analogies about community dynamics and growing pains > - Improve: Glossary of foundation/governance terms, metaphor expansions > #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners > - Present: Actionable advocacy suggestions and community participation ideas > - Improve: Step-by-step conference submission guide, community engagement checklist > #### 🧠 Logical learners > - Present: Clear progression from problems to proposed solutions > - Improve: Decision trees for governance improvements, metrics frameworks > #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners > - Present: Community-focused discussion and collaborative themes > - Improve: Discussion prompts for community groups, collaboration frameworks > #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners > - Present: Individual reflection opportunities on community participation > - Improve: Self-assessment tools for advocacy readiness, personal action planning > #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners > - Present: Organic community evolution analogies and ecosystem thinking > - Improve: Community lifecycle models, ecosystem health indicators > ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment > #### Screen reader semantics > - Present: Clear speaker transitions and topic headings in transcript > - Improve: Enhanced section markers, better quote attribution > #### Keyboard navigation > - Present: Standard video controls with keyboard support > - Improve: Transcript navigation shortcuts, section jumping > #### Contrast and readability > - Present: High contrast video interface > - Improve: Customizable transcript display options > #### Media and captions > - Present: Full transcript available > - Improve: Timed captions, downloadable formats > ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment > #### Cultural breadth > - Present: Global perspective on open source collaboration > - Improve: More diverse geographic examples, internationalization discussion > #### Inclusive language > - Present: Welcoming community rhetoric, permission-free participation emphasis > - Improve: Explicit diversity value statements, barrier reduction focus > #### Neurodiversity support > - Present: Structured interview format with clear transitions > - Improve: Multiple content format options, processing time accommodations > #### Representation > - Present: Female leadership in technical foundation role > - Improve: Broader representation examples, accessibility discussions > ### ✅ Logical Validity > #### Strong reasoning > - Deductive strength: Clear cause-effect relationships between community health and language sustainability > - Inductive strength: Pattern recognition from experience across multiple open source projects > - Causal reasoning: Well-supported connections between advocacy efforts and perception improvements > - Analogical strength: Effective comparisons to other language communities and foundations > #### Fallacies > - Appeal to tradition: Some recognition that old processes may need updating, but could examine more critically > - False dichotomy: Occasionally presents either/or choices where multiple options might exist > #### Tone of voice > - Overall tone: Enthusiastic, collaborative, and inclusive with authentic passion for community building > ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis > - Deny: No defensive patterns observed > - Attack: No attacks on critics or alternative viewpoints > - Reverse victim/offender: Not applicable to this content > - Emotional cues and rhetoric: Positive emotional appeals focused on community building and shared success > ## 🎯 Conclusion > Elizabeth's vision for the PHP Foundation represents a mature understanding that language sustainability requires ecosystem-wide thinking. Her emphasis on community advocacy, governance evolution, and perception management addresses real barriers to PHP's continued growth. The foundation's expanded mission beyond technical development, combined with Elizabeth's extensive open source experience, positions PHP well for addressing the growing pains of a large, successful language community. > ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix > ### 📚 Literature Split Pad > Purpose: Stage CEE units that become Literature notes. > Split level: H3 > ### [H1] Foundation directors must balance technical and community needs > > [!quote] PHP Foundation Director Interview by PHP Annotated via YouTube. Published 2024. Accessed 2024-12-21. > > "No code exists in a vacuum... there are users, companies, consultants, conference organizers." > Elizabeth's holistic view of language sustainability beyond pure technical development. > [view highlight](https://youtu.be/x_KmbLtQiJ0?t=1515) #xref #articleseed ID:rw_php_ecosystem > ### [H2] Community ownership creates governance tradeoffs > > [!quote] PHP Foundation Director Interview > > "Blessing and a curse... no one company can shut it down... difficult to portray unified roadmap." > The fundamental tension between independence and coordination in community-owned projects. > [view highlight](https://youtu.be/x_KmbLtQiJ0?t=3130) #xref ID:rw_governance_tradeoffs > --- > ### 🔖 Atomic Split Pad (Zettel Candidates) > Purpose: Promote reusable claims into Atomic notes. > Split level: H4 > #### [Z1] Open source advocacy requires proactive community effort > - Applies to all programming languages seeking broader adoption > - Referenced throughout interview discussion of conference submissions > - Links: [[Community-Building]] [[Developer-Advocacy]] > #### [Z2] Governance processes must evolve with community scale > - Universal principle for growing open source projects > - Specific examples around RFC voting and framework representation > - Links: [[Project-Governance]] [[Scaling-Communities]] > --- > ### ✏️ Fleeting Queue > Purpose: Capture quick actions for Fleeting notes. > - [F1] Research other language foundation governance models — comparative analysis for PHP #fleeting #inbox > - [F2] Create PHP conference talk proposal template — community resource development #fleeting #inbox > - [F3] Survey PHP developers about governance participation barriers — community input gathering #fleeting #inbox > --- > ## Full Transcript > [00:00] But, uh we've talked a bit about [00:02] elephants. I I I do want to take some [00:05] time, Elizabeth, to get to know you a [00:06] little bit and then uh spend the rest of [00:09] the stream to to talk about PHP, the [00:12] future for of PHP. Uh you're the [00:14] director now. I I I do want to learn [00:16] what that actually means. Believe it or [00:18] not, I've spent a couple of years [00:19] working with Roman and I don't actually [00:21] yet fully understand what a director [00:24] does. So, That is okay. I mean, I have [00:27] so many questions lined up. If people in [00:29] chat have questions as well, you can [00:31] leave them. They will appear here and [00:32] I'll try to keep track of them as well. [00:34] I cannot promise we can answer [00:36] everything, but but but I do have some [00:39] some good news here. Um [00:42] because if I'm not mistaken, Elizabeth, [00:44] you're also coming in a couple of months [00:47] to to PHP Verse, right? [00:49] >> Yes. So, I am sure there will be a lot [00:52] more room and time for more questions [00:55] there. So, if you want to join PHP [00:57] Verse, by the way, [00:59] just follow this channel. It will be [01:00] streamed here on PHP Annotated this [01:02] year. Just subscribe on YouTube and [01:05] you'll you'll be fine. Um [01:08] Elizabeth, [01:09] just very quickly, quick introduction, [01:12] who are you and and what brings you [01:15] here? [01:16] Yeah. Yeah, happy to answer that. Um so, [01:19] PHP is actually how I got my start in [01:22] open source back in, you know, as the [01:24] kids would say, my kids would say, the [01:26] 1900s. Back in the 1900s, [01:29] um when I started working [laughter] [01:31] working on open source. Um [01:33] and at the time, it was, you know, it's [01:36] I you probably heard the story numerous [01:38] times from other people, but at that [01:40] time it was ASP or PHP, which were one [01:44] are you going to use to build a website? [01:45] And so, I thought, well, I'm going to [01:47] try this PHP thing and just see how that [01:50] goes. And it was awesome. And it was so [01:53] easy to build things with. The community [01:55] was fantastic. Everyone was so eager to [01:58] help, so happy, and just a lot of fun. [02:01] Um this is, you know, I'm talking about [02:03] IRC that days, you know, PHPC in IRC. Um [02:08] you know, we just we just had a ball. [02:10] And [02:11] quite frankly, we just had so much fun. [02:13] Um and it just was so curious to me how [02:17] all these seemingly random people came [02:19] together from all over the world and [02:21] we're just building things together and, [02:24] you know, making each other laugh and [02:25] just having a great time. Um but also [02:27] still creating cool things. You know, [02:30] nobody was managing this team of people. [02:33] Nobody was, you know, telling people [02:34] what to do. It was, you know, someone [02:36] had an idea for something, whether it [02:38] be, you know, a community conference or [02:40] user group or whatever it was. [02:42] And you could just do it. Like that was [02:43] mind-blowing to me. You could just do [02:44] it. You didn't need permission. And [02:46] that's one thing I love about open [02:47] source is you don't really need [02:48] permission. You can just do things. [02:50] So, [02:52] so yeah, so I I got my start in PHP. I [02:54] then, you know, was just really taken [02:57] with this idea of community and and [02:58] watching this uh you know, how people [03:00] come together and build things together. [03:02] So, I ended up going to uh [03:06] you'll laugh at this if you know this uh [03:08] SourceForge. If you know about [03:09] SourceForge, you will probably get a [03:11] chuckle out of that. Um but I did go to [03:13] them as a community manager, an official [03:14] community manager, which I was um like [03:17] if someone's going to pay me to do [03:18] community work that I had already been [03:20] doing, then heck yeah. You know, give me [03:22] that. So, I was at SourceForge for a [03:24] little while. I went to another company [03:25] called EngineYard for a little while who [03:27] had just acquired um some PHP [03:30] uh a PHP company and they wanted me to [03:32] kind of be the liaison between their [03:35] company and PHP cuz they were like a [03:37] Rails shop mostly. So, I was kind of [03:39] trying to bring everybody together. [03:41] Um and from there I went to GitHub. [03:44] And and and gone, but uh she'll be back. [03:47] Some small hiccups here on the internet [03:49] side. [03:50] >> than than it is now. Um Just Yeah. Yeah. [03:54] Uh [03:54] backtracking to GitHub because your [03:56] internet just uh decided to do a little [03:58] thing. So, you went to GitHub and then [04:00] you cut out for 5 seconds. So, so that's [04:02] where we [04:03] >> [laughter] [04:04] >> Okay. I went to GitHub from 2012 to [04:07] 2018. Um and it was a lot different than [04:11] than it is now, for sure. There was like [04:13] 125 people then, um you know, when I [04:15] joined. And so, it was it was great. Um [04:18] but it was pre-Microsoft. And so, uh [04:21] yeah, I took a little a little [04:22] sabbatical after that cuz it was [04:25] a little bit stressful, honestly. It was [04:27] it was pretty stressful. [04:28] Um and then um I'm also a nature [04:30] photographer on the side. So, I I sell [04:33] my nature photography at art shows and [04:35] things like that. And um [04:37] I just focused on that for [04:39] like a year and a half. And then COVID [04:41] hit. And I had to uh there were no [04:44] festivals, there were no art shows or [04:46] anything like that. So, I ended up [04:47] coming back to tech. [04:48] I landed in with a absolutely fantastic [04:52] open source project called CHAOSS, [04:56] for those who aren't familiar with it. [04:57] Um it's a Linux Foundation open source [04:59] project. Um and I was the community [05:01] manager there. And I uh we grew the [05:03] community from a couple hundred to about [05:05] 30 3,400, I think, are in there now. Um [05:08] so, that's what I've been doing for the [05:09] past 6 years. And um you know, CHAOSS [05:13] was funded by a a grant from my position [05:16] at CHAOSS was funded by a grant from the [05:18] Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, which is a [05:20] funding org in the in the states. And um [05:23] they funded the project for three rounds [05:26] of 3-year grants each, which is 9 years [05:29] of funding, which is a really long time [05:31] to be funded. So, um that was kind of [05:33] coming that was getting sunset a little [05:35] bit. [05:36] And so, I thought, oh, I should probably [05:38] look for [05:39] look for some work somewhere. I should [05:41] probably get a job. Um and someone sent [05:43] me this uh application and I applied and [05:45] ta-da, here I am. [05:47] So, that's my long and sorted tale of my [05:50] past. Yeah, I mean, really nice. I [05:52] didn't know you were into uh nature [05:53] photography as well. Like I I I you [05:56] don't have it at hand, probably, but I I [05:58] am curious like when you come up to PHP [06:00] Verse, bring some of your favorite [06:02] pictures. I'm curious to to like [06:04] uh get to see those as well. [06:08] >> If anybody wants to see it. [06:10] >> ElizabethNPhoto. [06:11] Oh, perfect. And and also, you'll see my [06:13] name ElizabethN everywhere because I [06:15] used to be Elizabeth Naramore. And so, [06:17] everything I have is ElizabethN even [06:19] though that's not my name now. [06:21] >> Okay. Got it. Yeah. So, it's [06:22] ElizabethNPhoto. So, Okay. [06:25] Nice. [06:26] So, so you're now at the PHP Foundation. [06:29] Yeah. [06:30] >> And I have [06:32] a bunch of questions lined up that I [06:34] gathered from the community as well [06:36] about like how that's going. Of course, [06:38] people are super curious to learn like [06:41] what your future plans are. Um [06:45] maybe you want to start by explaining a [06:48] little bit what the director of the PHP [06:50] Foundation does, but also maybe what the [06:53] PHP Foundation on itself does because [06:57] that might not be clear for everyone, [06:59] actually. Um so, [07:01] take it away. [07:02] Yeah. Um okay. So, the foundation itself [07:06] was created in order to bring more [07:10] sustainability to the PHP language, [07:12] frankly. Um there was a blog post, if I [07:15] remember this correctly, someone correct [07:17] me if I'm wrong, but there was a blog [07:18] post written that basically pointed out [07:21] that no one was getting like one person [07:23] was getting paid to work on the [07:24] language, right? And that's concerning [07:26] to all of us who are, you know, we're [07:29] our um [07:30] depending on that language to stick [07:31] around. So, um the idea then for the [07:34] foundation came about and um the the [07:37] sole focus at that time was to basically [07:40] pay people to work on the language. [07:42] You know, pretty pretty much, full stop. [07:44] Um and in with a longer goal of keeping [07:47] PHP going, keeping it sustainable, [07:50] keeping it thriving. [07:51] So, that's kind of the story of the [07:53] foundation. That's what it was there [07:54] for. Um [07:57] I think over the years, you know, um [08:00] we've kind of realized that there's more [08:02] to it than that. Um so, that kind of [08:05] speaks to my [08:11] to [08:12] uh manage the contractors, make sure [08:15] that they have what they need to do a [08:17] great job. Um that they are, you know, [08:19] everybody's clear on what they're [08:20] working on. Um so, a lot of that, a lot [08:23] of communicating back to the community [08:25] about what what things are being are [08:27] being worked on and um technical blog [08:29] posts sometimes um [08:31] if they're not from they probably won't [08:33] be from me, but if they are from me, um [08:36] yeah, I mean, [08:37] from the staff, you know, from the [08:38] contractors or from whoever. And just [08:40] managing all of that. Managing those [08:42] communications externally. [08:44] Mhm. Okay. Elizabeth, we'll be back in a [08:47] second. You know, I had some some [08:49] internet issues myself. [08:51] >> feel like [08:53] It's fine. It's fine. I I I fill the gap [08:55] every time. I was just telling for the [08:57] folks here that I had some internet [09:00] issues myself today, like throughout the [09:02] whole day. And my internet provider was [09:04] just like, yeah, nope, it's not going to [09:06] work. Uh we're trying to fix it. We [09:08] don't know how it's going like [09:09] >> [laughter] [09:09] >> I was stressing out, but for on my side [09:11] at least, it's working. And for you, [09:14] it's fine. You drop out from from time [09:15] to time a little bit, but then then I'll [09:18] Um yeah, I'll I'll I'll fill the gaps. [09:22] I I I want to uh pick up on something [09:24] you said that [09:27] the PHP Foundation is is was made for [09:31] PHP as a language to to thrive. [09:34] And a big part of PHP is its technical [09:36] development, but you also already hinted [09:38] that [09:39] it's more than just technical stuff. So, [09:41] what does it mean for a programming [09:43] language to thrive? And what are your [09:46] thoughts about that? [09:48] Yeah, I mean, it you know, nothing no [09:50] code exists in a vacuum, right? There's [09:52] a lot of moving parts. There are, you [09:54] know, your users, there are um companies [09:58] that bring the language in. There are [10:01] you know people who build companies, [10:04] whether it be consultants or you know [10:06] conference organizers or [10:09] publications like [10:10] you know whatever that means. There are [10:12] other people involved in this ecosystem. [10:15] So you know we can focus on one piece of [10:18] it but how much better to focus on more [10:21] pieces of it, right? [10:23] So for instance you know making sure [10:25] that there are users around that want to [10:27] use PHP. I think it's [clears throat] a [10:29] big piece of it because we can have the [10:31] best language in the world if nobody [10:32] knows about it, if nobody considers it [10:35] an option or if nobody's learning about [10:37] it then that's not great for a thriving [10:39] language. So it's you know it's kind of [10:42] circular. [10:45] Something. It's a cycle. A cycle. [10:47] >> [laughter] [10:47] >> It's a cycle. And [10:49] so you know part of the thing that I [10:51] would love to see the foundation do is [10:54] provide some more support for a broader [10:56] set of [10:58] pieces of that puzzle in the ecosystem. [11:01] So things like you know newcomer [11:02] experience. Like what is it like for a [11:04] newcomer coming into the language? [11:07] You know there are some opportunities [11:08] for us to improve that experience in [11:11] certain places, making it easier for [11:13] them to learn, making sure the tutorials [11:15] that are out there are updated. [11:17] You know making sure that you know boot [11:19] camps or universities or whoever [11:21] understand that PHP is [11:24] also an option. Right. Yeah. I know a [11:26] lot of folks are just being taught [11:28] Python JavaScript. That's it. So you [11:30] know kind of making those [11:33] relationships, building some some you [11:35] know strengthening those with educators [11:37] as well I think is a piece of it that I [11:39] would like to see us do if possible. [11:41] You know also [11:43] supporting the user groups and the the [11:45] communities that are being built around [11:47] PHP, supporting conferences, community [11:49] conferences in whatever way that looks. [11:52] I don't I don't quite know what that [11:53] looks like yet but they're doing the [11:56] work to bring new people in and to keep [11:59] people around. I mean I think that's [12:01] also another piece of it is you know [12:03] kind of building that cohesion and [12:05] someone's much more likely to stick [12:06] around if they feel like they belong, if [12:09] they feel like they can find answers [12:11] when they need them and they understand [12:13] what they're doing and understand the [12:14] power of a language. So [12:16] you know it's it's a lot of different [12:18] moving parts that all fit together to to [12:20] really push it forward if that makes [12:22] sense. Yeah. [snorts] I am Adrian is [12:25] saying here in chat a new PHP homepage I [12:28] think that's not from 20 years ago would [12:30] be great [12:32] and I can just speak to that for a [12:34] minute. I I have been spending my first [12:37] few weeks here just listening to people. [12:39] You know I opened my calendar up. People [12:41] have been coming in droves. I've talked [12:43] to probably 55 people now at this point. [12:46] You know developers, consultants, people [12:48] at other open source foundations. I mean [12:50] I've talked to so many people and that [12:52] has actually come up quite a few times. [12:53] Interesting. [laughter] It has come up [12:56] because it's it's the optics, right? [12:57] It's the optics of it and if someone [12:58] comes to the page and it doesn't look [13:00] like it's been updated then they're just [13:03] going to make assumptions that are [13:04] incorrect. So you know maybe there's [13:06] something and I don't know if that's the [13:08] foundation's role to do that. I don't I [13:10] don't actually know and this is [13:11] something we're going to have to figure [13:12] out. You know to cuz we have to do all [13:14] this together I think and so like the [13:16] foundation doesn't want to you know come [13:17] in and try to run everything. That's not [13:20] our goal. Our goal is to collaborate and [13:22] support and [13:24] really work with folks to to everybody [13:26] move together at the same place in the [13:28] same way [13:29] if that makes sense. But that is [13:30] definitely something that has been [13:32] >> [laughter] [13:32] >> been brought up. You know and if we're [13:33] trying to evangelize PHP outside this [13:36] open source outside our own PHP bubble, [13:39] you know in the greater open source [13:40] world then yeah I mean we have to care [13:43] about [13:45] We have to care about and then we'll [13:47] come back [13:48] to that thought right away. [13:51] You [13:52] we have to care about it. That's [13:55] I think that's what you're saying. You [13:56] were you were cutting out again. [13:59] The [14:00] what I find interesting and this is this [14:03] is something I'm I'm learning more and [14:04] more throughout the years that I I'm [14:06] also a little bit involved in in some [14:09] community work as a as a developer [14:11] advocate and I'm seeing things not from [14:14] just a [14:16] PHP developer's point of view anymore. [14:19] And and that perception that you're [14:21] talking about it's actually so [14:23] important. I have I was doing this [14:24] livestream with with Roman actually last [14:27] week about PHP debugging and and how it [14:30] could also be improved. Not because the [14:32] current solutions don't work or don't [14:35] get us where we need to be but just [14:37] because for for that that entry level [14:42] is is just it's there is too much [14:44] friction there and I think it's really [14:47] if if we want PHP to thrive and to be on [14:50] the radar again of of [14:53] like the wider web community. [14:57] I think this is actually [14:59] key. It's it's just a homepage. It's not [15:02] going to change anything about the [15:04] language itself. But we we may like it [15:07] or not but it it does affect people's [15:10] impression of PHP and that's just that's [15:13] just yeah [15:14] a fact and we have to deal with that [15:16] whether we like that fact or not. [15:18] Yeah. Yeah. [15:19] So question here from Valerio that that [15:22] I also got from other people um [15:25] What do you think about competition with [15:27] other languages because [15:29] maybe maybe competition isn't the right [15:31] word but [15:33] when we talk about [15:34] PHP as more of like from from this point [15:38] of view it becomes more of a [15:40] dare I say marketing problem rather than [15:42] a technical problem solve. [15:45] How do other languages actually solve [15:47] this [15:48] this problem because every every online [15:51] community is dealing with this this [15:53] first impression part and appealing to a [15:56] potential new audiences and and [15:59] programming languages on their own it's [16:01] like it's it's a weird thing to market, [16:03] right? [16:04] Yeah, it is. It really is. But the thing [16:07] is that if you don't spend any time [16:10] doing that then nobody knows that you're [16:13] there and nobody understands what you're [16:15] about and so there is that piece that [16:17] yeah you do need to tell your own story [16:19] and tell tell people like why why should [16:23] they use PHP? You know what is the the [16:26] benefit and [16:27] if you you know again if you don't tell [16:29] that story then people don't know it. [16:31] They just I mean it's not something that [16:33] is that intuitive. They're not going to [16:35] just know. You have to tell them. [16:38] I actually have been talking to I [16:40] mentioned before the some other [16:42] executive directors at other open source [16:45] foundations. So like the Rails [16:46] Foundation, [16:48] the OpenJS Foundation, Rust Foundation. [16:50] And it's so funny that [16:54] you know we're all in the [16:56] we're all in the open source boat [16:57] together really. You know it's like [16:59] we're all kind of [17:01] in the same space. So we we should [17:04] collaborate with each other honestly if [17:05] we all want to win, if we all want to [17:07] you know maintain this this thing that [17:10] we call open source. [17:11] Cuz we all care about some of the same [17:13] things like funding. You know funding [17:15] across open source is [17:17] like that's a hot topic right now of how [17:20] do we how do we keep open source [17:22] sustained? [17:23] So you know those those directors are [17:25] also wondering you know about this. AI [17:28] is another thing. You know every we're [17:30] all kind of faltering and struggling [17:32] trying to find our way in those places. [17:35] But and you know it's [17:37] >> [laughter] [17:37] >> Rails also has [17:39] I won't say an image problem but that [17:41] perception that they're an old older [17:44] language, you know people want to go to [17:45] something shiny new but you know so [17:47] they're kind of in the same boat we are [17:49] actually honestly. [17:50] But the the thing is like we're stable [17:52] and that's the story we should be [17:53] telling. Is yeah we we might have been [17:55] around a while but that means we're [17:56] stable and that means that [17:58] [clears throat] we're you know mature [17:59] enough to to keep going. So like just [18:03] being able to spin that a little bit [18:04] instead of old and crusty we're actually [18:06] stable and something you can rely on [18:08] because we've you know been doing this [18:10] for a long time. [18:11] So [18:12] it is curious that there you know we [18:14] have some of the same problems and I [18:16] would much rather us [18:18] you know collaborate honestly with with [18:20] other languages to make things better [18:23] and you know maybe improve [18:25] interoperability between us. I don't [18:27] know what that looks like but you know [18:29] just things like that that help [18:30] everybody. Just help everybody. So it's [18:33] less of a competition and more of a [18:34] collaboration. Yeah. [18:36] And you mentioned that you're not sure [18:39] yet whether this falls under the the the [18:44] jurisdiction is not the right word but [18:45] like the [18:48] the responsibilities. [18:51] Yeah yeah you mentioned that you it's [18:53] you're not sure yet that this is a [18:54] responsibility of the foundation. [18:57] I I hope that at least from my point of [19:00] view it is really important and I want [19:02] the foundation to do this. I realize [19:04] there are many very talented technical [19:07] developers on the project now being paid [19:10] to work on PHP core but I think this is [19:14] equally important if you want PHP to [19:16] thrive. [19:18] Yeah. I I do agree. I do agree with you [19:21] 100%. Um [19:22] I think that you know the the fuzzy part [19:25] comes in with with things like the [19:26] website and things you know like [19:28] different things in the language but as [19:30] far as the improving the perception of [19:33] PHP I would love to see the foundation [19:35] kind of help with that definitely. And [19:37] also you know collaborate with others [19:39] who are trying to do the same thing that [19:42] have been doing that you know in their [19:44] own spaces. Just keep you know they keep [19:46] >> [laughter] [19:47] >> I have talked to a few people who keep [19:49] submitting PHP talks to open source [19:50] conferences and they don't get accepted, [19:52] but you know, we shouldn't stop. We [19:54] should We should do more of that. We [19:56] should flood them with PHP talks, [19:58] honestly. [19:59] >> Interesting, yeah. Because then they [20:00] cannot ignore PHP. You know, if we if we [20:03] don't try if we if we're not all trying [20:05] to tell that story, or at least a lot of [20:07] us, then, you know, I think if if that [20:10] happens, then they they have a it's much [20:13] harder to ignore PHP if we Yeah. This is [20:16] coming straight from the director of the [20:17] PHP Foundation, folks. [20:19] Uh and and it's nice because it [20:21] highlights that we're in [20:23] this together, right? Not just the [20:24] foundation, it's not just internals, [20:27] it's all of us. Like it's it's actually [20:29] it's an idea that makes so much sense to [20:32] if you want PHP to be better known, [20:34] let's go to let's submit to more [20:36] conferences outside of PHP, and let's [20:39] just keep spamming them. And that's [20:41] that's on not all of us because not all [20:43] of us are conference speakers, but that [20:45] that's something we like the collective [20:47] community [20:48] >> Yeah. uh can and and and frankly should [20:50] do. I think that's a really great idea. [20:52] >> Yeah. And maybe it's writing, you know, [20:54] writing blog posts, um writing more [20:56] articles for different places, um just [21:00] really kind of taking that taking that [21:02] role of like this is this is my [21:04] language, too. I mean, it it belongs [21:06] {quote} to all of us. So, yeah, I mean, [21:09] if [21:10] again, you don't need permission. So, if [21:11] you want to if you want to do this and [21:13] you want to help PHP, then yeah, you [21:16] know, go for it. Like I would love that. [21:17] I would love to see that. I would love [21:19] to see that. And you know, from a [21:21] foundation standpoint, I'm thinking [21:22] about like what what can we do to help [21:25] people who do want to do that? So, maybe [21:27] it's, you know, here are some talking [21:29] points if you want to use them in your [21:31] in in your talks, or here are some great [21:33] things about PHP you can use, or here's [21:37] a way here's a guide on how to give a [21:39] talk, or how to write it an abstract. [21:41] Like what whatever that is, I don't [21:42] know. [21:43] Um but you know, just providing [21:44] resources for the community so that, you [21:47] know, people can have the tools they [21:48] need to do to do that thing. Whatever [21:51] that is, whatever that looks like for [21:52] them. [21:53] It's it's it's really interesting, and [21:55] I'm and honestly, on a personal level, [21:57] super happy that this is [22:00] on the radar. [22:02] Uh because like I mentioned, the more I [22:04] got into advocacy and the more I got to [22:06] see from like other parts of the PHP [22:08] community, the more I realized this this [22:10] is actually important. It's it's easy to [22:11] think from a developer's point of view, [22:14] like let's just focus on features. I'm [22:16] like I'm I'm a I like features as well. [22:19] If there's one thing I I [22:21] so many people mentioned this also [22:23] before, and but like you generics, when [22:24] are we getting generics? But actually, [22:26] I would like generics, but I I really [22:29] don't think like it's going to change a [22:31] lot of newcomers' minds whether they [22:33] will use PHP or not. So, [22:36] um it's good that that this is on your [22:38] radar, and I and I hope that we'll we'll [22:40] hear more from this in the future. I [22:42] think that's really [22:43] >> absolutely will. 100%. You know, and it [22:46] also kind of feeds back in to uh to [22:49] companies when they are looking to build [22:51] something, you know, what direction do [22:53] they go in? And so, I think also a [22:57] couple of I have I have a lot to say. [22:58] I'm so sorry. I have a lot to say. Um [23:01] but you know, I'm thinking about like [23:03] should we be more um available to [23:06] entrepreneurs? Like should we should we [23:08] be more open in those spaces, or should [23:10] we be, you know, promoting PHP to [23:13] entrepreneurs who just want to build [23:15] something quickly? Well, you know, why [23:17] aren't you using PHP? And with things [23:19] like native PHP, I mean, [23:21] you know, there's just there's so much [23:23] opportunity out there for us to just [23:26] kind of um share our own enthusiasm for [23:29] the language and share our own [23:30] excitement for it. And you know, if I'm [23:32] in a company trying to build something, [23:34] and I have to decide how what do I what [23:36] technology do I want to use? Um I [23:40] you know, I think telling the story of a [23:42] modern PHP [23:46] We'll have to [23:47] hold on a second. See uh So, if [23:49] companies start Yeah, if companies start [23:51] using PHP more, there are more PHP jobs [23:54] for everybody. It just is like a cycle. [23:56] Okay. Because, you know, [23:57] universities are going to teach PHP. [24:00] It's all in a pipeline. So, you know, [24:02] kind of also focusing on every piece of [24:04] that pipeline [24:06] helps us, too. So, there you go. Some [24:08] really really interesting thoughts. [24:10] Thanks for sharing those, and I and I [24:11] hope it's inspiring for people that are [24:14] watching to also like maybe think about [24:16] this a little bit more. I have uh some [24:19] more questions for you. [24:20] Um [24:21] is Rajesh here was asking uh a little [24:24] bit more about his technical side, and I [24:25] noticed when I when I asked people [24:28] to to send their questions, many were [24:30] technical questions as well. There were [24:32] some questions about like this this [24:34] marketing side uh and and PHP's [24:38] reputation within the open source world [24:40] as a whole. Uh but many technical [24:42] questions were there as well. And and I [24:44] think Rajesh asks a very interesting [24:46] question. How does the foundation [24:48] decides [24:50] uh which features make it into PHP core? [24:53] Um [24:54] and I want to link a couple more there [24:56] because people were also asking about [24:59] how the foundation works together with [25:01] internals, the synergy there. Um [25:04] and and [25:06] I I'm curious to hear your thoughts on [25:08] that whole process of how the language [25:10] itself from a technical point of view is [25:12] designed these days. [25:15] Yeah. Yeah, that's a great Those are [25:16] great questions, honestly. Those are [25:17] really great questions. And I'm still [25:20] frankly trying to [25:21] fully understand all of the ins and outs [25:24] of [25:25] the the processes and the workflows that [25:28] are being used. [25:29] >> Yeah. Um and and to the point of um the, [25:31] you know, the the relationship between [25:33] internals and our contractors. So, and [25:36] that's the piece that's a little bit [25:37] fuzzy for a lot of folks, I know. Um [25:40] and I think that, you know, over the [25:41] coming months, [25:42] um we need to be clear about internally, [25:46] we need to be clearer, quite frankly, [25:47] about how we do prioritize things. Um we [25:51] have a team meeting on Monday, uh and [25:53] there's some I have some questions. [25:54] Okay. I have some questions [laughter] [25:56] about that for for them for for our [25:57] contractors. So, you know, like let's [25:59] let's make sure that we can articulate [26:01] these things for the community because I [26:04] don't know that we have have them [26:06] articulated anywhere clearly. Um and so, [26:10] that's part of my job is just to make [26:11] sure that we're all on the same page, [26:13] that we can, you know, communicate that [26:15] that bit. [26:16] Um I think till now it has been um [26:20] you know, kind of organic in the ways [26:22] that those things happen, the way the [26:23] projects happen. It's been very organic. [26:26] Um and I would really love to see us [26:29] uh coordinate and move along. I would [26:32] love to see us provide a roadmap for [26:33] folks. Um you know, so that [26:36] people know kind of what we're thinking [26:38] about and why, and um [26:40] I think that, you know, improving [26:42] communication with the with the [26:43] community will be helpful, too, because [26:45] I know I also kind of got that feedback [26:48] um that it's not always clear what we're [26:50] doing, what the impact of the work that [26:53] we are doing is. [26:54] Um and so, you know, that is something [26:56] that I would like to do more of is to [26:58] communicate with the the community. [27:00] Um and and you know, whatever that looks [27:03] like, maybe it's opening up a a channel [27:05] somewhere, Discord, or, you know, I [27:07] don't know. Um but some way for us to [27:09] have a more direct communication also [27:12] with the community because I don't know [27:14] that that exists really anywhere to my [27:16] knowledge. Um so, As with everything [27:19] PHP, I would say it's it's very spread [27:21] out across several subcommunities. [27:24] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, which is also a [27:25] challenge for us. Right? There is no [27:28] central place where we can all as a [27:29] community, as a large community, come [27:31] together and and and chat with each [27:33] other. So, you have like your Reddit [27:35] folks, you have Twitter folks, you have [27:36] Discord folks, you have, you know, and [27:38] so, that's challenging. I mean, that [27:39] happens in a big community, of course, [27:42] but it is a challenge for us, you know? [27:45] Uh for our cohesion as a community, but [27:47] but yeah. So, I don't know that I really [27:49] answered those questions [27:50] >> [laughter] [27:50] >> very well. I'm I'm I'm just going to [27:52] follow up if if I'm allowed to with kind [27:54] of a tricky question, maybe. [27:57] Uh [27:58] >> [laughter] [27:58] >> you're you're saying of course, but [27:59] you're not saying you don't know what [28:01] I'm going to ask. [28:03] >> [laughter] [28:04] >> And and [28:05] this is a question uh maybe by by me, [28:09] but [28:10] um [28:11] So, so here's what I'm wondering about. [28:14] There is the foundation who is backed by [28:17] a lot of companies from within the PHP [28:20] community financially who say this is [28:23] indeed what we want to invest in for the [28:26] language that we depend on, that we in [28:28] turn [28:29] >> Yeah. rely on to to make money with, [28:31] basically. We want to invest in this um [28:34] foundation to make sure that PHP [28:37] thrives, [28:39] Um Yeah. [28:42] I think that's really good because it it [28:44] meant [28:45] that [28:47] I I'm going to hang on a second. So, so [28:49] Elizabeth, okay. So, I I think that's a [28:51] really good thing. Um [28:54] because it means that we're now [28:55] investing into having more people [28:58] actually being able to work [29:00] full-time or part-time paid on PHP to [29:02] keep the the language going. [29:04] Um [29:05] and then and then there is [29:07] internals [29:08] who still holds in in like my from my [29:12] point of view, hold all the power to [29:13] decide where the language goes. So, here [29:15] you have this the foundation, a group [29:17] that is basically endorsed by a big part [29:20] of the PHP community financially to [29:23] actually develop this language. [29:25] And it also feels like they are still at [29:29] the mercy of another group, and there is [29:31] some overlap there, of course. [29:33] But of another other group of developers [29:35] who have invested a lot of their their [29:37] free time and and talent and effort over [29:39] decades into this this language. Yeah. [29:42] But [29:43] it also to me, at least, doesn't feel [29:45] 100% fair that [29:48] like [29:49] you [29:50] the foundation is still at the mercy of [29:52] the internals process and anything they [29:55] want to do, even making changes to the [29:57] to the PHP homepage, as far as I [30:00] understand has to go through the RFC [30:01] process, which the last last thing I [30:04] heard Larry checked I did a a live [30:07] stream with Larry Larry Garfield by the [30:08] way a year ago or a year and a half ago [30:11] about about some of his RFCs. I think he [30:14] mentioned there there are around 1,500 [30:17] people who are eligible to vote. They're [30:20] most of them are out of the picture, but [30:23] it it it it feels like such a weird [30:26] situation that we're in and I don't want [30:29] to it's a bit of a controversial [30:31] question and I don't want to stir up any [30:32] feelings or or [30:34] make people angry but [30:36] I do feel like it's a genuine question [30:38] to ask. Like is is is the situation as [30:40] it is right now, is that really fair? [30:44] So I have some thoughts. [30:46] >> [laughter] [30:46] >> So [30:47] first I will say that having the [30:50] language be kind of owned, for lack of a [30:53] better word, by the community [30:55] is both a blessing and a curse for us, [30:58] right? So it's a blessing because there [31:01] is no one company that can just decide [31:04] to shut it down, which you know, if you [31:06] think about like something like go, I [31:07] mean that's a thing that could happen. [31:09] Probably won't, but it could, you know, [31:11] things could change very quickly. [31:13] And that that won't happen with PHP [31:15] because no one owns it. [31:17] So that's great. [31:19] On the other hand, it does make it [31:22] difficult to [31:24] portray kind of a unified roadmap of [31:27] here's where we all want the language to [31:29] be in 5 years. Here is where we're [31:31] planning to go. There is no one really [31:34] quote unquote steering the ship as it [31:36] were and that's concerning for some [31:38] companies who want to know what's in the [31:41] future. Yeah. Right? So that is a [31:43] challenge for us as a community as a [31:45] language and we would have to solve that [31:47] together. [31:48] I would love to you know, the foundation [31:50] to to support that if that's something [31:53] that you know, if a roadmap could be [31:55] could be solidified, you know, 5 years I [31:59] don't know how how that would happen. I [32:00] don't know how how that would happen, [32:02] but [32:03] you know, I think that that it's a it's [32:05] a problem we all share, a challenge we [32:06] all share. So [32:09] you know, but we that's the path we've [32:10] chosen. We have no benevolent dictator. [32:12] We have we don't have that. So what do [32:15] we do then? We we have this process that [32:18] is um [32:20] I will say it's imperfect. You know, [32:22] there are pieces of it that could be [32:24] improved. To your point about voting, I [32:27] think you know, a lot of people [32:29] mentioned that to me as as something [32:30] that could be a little bit better of [32:32] just you know, who who is that who are [32:34] the active ones who are up to date, who [32:36] understand you know, how things actually [32:39] are in the moment versus folks who just [32:42] you know, have the voting rights but [32:44] haven't been around for you know, like [32:46] you said [32:46] >> if if I if I just can pick up there, I I [32:49] know it's a [32:50] a little bit of a personal not really [32:52] rant but but [32:54] I'm really passionate about this. It's [32:55] mind-blowing to me that that like the [32:58] biggest frameworks who are driving PHP's [33:02] popularity have virtually no say in how [33:05] the language evolves and I know people [33:08] like Nicolas Grekas from from Symfony [33:10] for example, he got involved in [33:12] internals but only because he was [33:14] working on internal features, not [33:16] because he was [33:18] driving Symfony, the second second [33:20] largest framework in PHP, you know, and [33:23] and that's that's [33:24] I I find that [33:27] very hard. Like I think that I agree [33:29] with you. It's a really a challenge and [33:31] also probably [33:34] a worry for many companies who might [33:36] consider PHP [33:38] because it's [33:39] maybe a a sign of instability or [33:43] uncertainty. [33:45] And yeah, I find I find that a little um [33:49] a little worrying. I I hope that the the [33:53] in the next 5 years or something that we [33:56] may get a little bit more I know clarity [33:59] there on that process, a better process [34:02] actually, not just clarity but a better [34:03] process. That's my hope. Yeah. [34:06] Yeah. Yeah, and you know, what worked [34:08] you know, 20 years ago [34:11] maybe the process needs to evolve and [34:14] the the fact that the community [34:17] representation [34:19] is limited in the voting rights is an [34:22] issue. It's an issue for people. I mean, [34:24] I know it's a controversial thing, [34:27] but there are some things that you know, [34:28] we as a community as a language, we [34:31] might have to just rip the band-aid off [34:33] and and just expose all this to the [34:34] sunlight and figure out what we want to [34:36] do with it together as a group. Because [34:38] it affects everybody, right? [34:41] It affects all of us. It affects our it [34:43] affects my personal ability to talk [34:45] about PHP and to talk about you know, [34:47] what where I see the language going. I [34:49] mean, quite frankly, it's hard to know [34:52] what what is around the corner. It's [34:54] it's hard to know what RFCs are going to [34:56] pass and what aren't and [34:58] it's I know it's it's a it's a thing and [35:01] I would love to see the the foundation [35:03] facilitate a stronger relationship [35:06] between the users and internals because [35:09] I think there's also a little bit of a [35:10] disconnect there. You know, that there [35:13] there's not really a good way to [35:16] collaborate in that way of of what do [35:19] people actually need and what are we [35:21] working on because we want to work on [35:23] this thing. You know, so [35:25] again, I don't [35:26] >> [laughter] [35:26] >> I don't know what the foundation's role [35:28] but I would really love to even just [35:30] facilitate those conversations, you [35:32] know, whether it be you know, let's have [35:34] a summit. We bring everybody together in [35:36] person because that's also affected our [35:38] ability to produce things together is [35:41] the since COVID, you know, user groups [35:43] have kind of have kind of stagnated a [35:46] little. The conferences have gone away. [35:48] There is a resurgence now. People are [35:51] craving that like in-person contact and [35:54] being able to you know, have some [35:56] controversial hard conversations with [35:59] people in person. It's so much easier [36:01] and it's it's much more productive I [36:03] think in some cases than just you know, [36:05] back and forth on a on a mailing list or [36:07] an email or Twitter or whatever it is. [36:08] So [36:09] you know, maybe the foundation could do [36:11] something. I don't know what that looks [36:12] like yet, but I would I would love to [36:14] see [36:15] something like that happen, you know, [36:17] where it's just [clears throat] okay, [36:18] let's just stop and every you know, what [36:21] I just we need a reset almost. [36:23] [laughter] We need to figure out like [36:24] how do we strengthen that relationship [36:26] between users and and the internals. [36:29] Yeah. [36:30] Yeah. So I don't know. It's no, but and [36:32] that's totally fine. That's totally [36:33] fine. [36:35] I didn't prepare you with these [36:36] questions, so [36:37] >> No, it's a great question. I really [36:39] appreciate you you sharing these [36:40] thoughts and and it's a process we're [36:43] going through together and you're giving [36:45] giving a lot of of good things to think [36:46] about. Something that that I just [36:48] realized while you were talking and [36:49] mentioned that [36:51] PHP is [36:52] well [36:53] more than 30 years old now. A process [36:55] that worked 20 years ago and this might [36:58] be a sign of PHP's popularity actually. [37:00] A process that worked 20 years ago when [37:02] the language was a much smaller [37:04] community might not be sufficient [37:05] anymore for [37:07] now you know, when you look at [37:08] frameworks like Laravel [37:11] and people coming into that ecosystem, [37:14] they don't actually consider themselves [37:16] PHP developers anymore. They consider [37:18] themselves Laravel developers and so [37:20] we're talking it's [37:22] like there is this huge shift within PHP [37:26] over the past 10, 20 years and [37:30] you're right, maybe the process that was [37:32] that worked 20 years ago [37:34] um may not be sufficient anymore and [37:37] maybe that is that that might actually [37:39] be [37:40] a good sign of PHP growing and this [37:44] being like the the growing pains. [37:46] >> pains. Growing pains, yeah, that's yeah. [37:48] Exactly. I totally believe that and I [37:50] think that the language as a whole would [37:52] be so much better off [37:56] if we could strengthen those [37:58] relationships and and that and and [38:00] [clears throat] view it more as a you [38:02] know, we need this thing in the language [38:05] so you have to do this thing and [38:07] internals saying, well, no, we don't [38:09] want to do this thing whatever for [38:10] whatever reason. Like it could be it [38:13] could be so much better if we just [38:14] collaborated and listened to each other [38:16] and found a compromise and figured out [38:17] how to how to work together because you [38:20] know, again, it affects all of us. [38:22] And all of everything anytime there's a [38:25] breakdown or you know, a challenge, [38:28] something could be better. Like yeah, I [38:30] mean, it it just affects everybody. So [38:32] we should all care about it. We should [38:34] all kind of want that process to be to [38:37] be great. And you know, [38:39] Sorry, I'm I'm going off on a tangent. [38:41] No, go go go. [38:44] Oh, and then and then [laughter] she [38:45] cuts out. [38:48] We'll have to take it back from we'll [38:50] have to take it back from the tangent. [38:52] You just cut out on the [38:54] perfect spot. Okay, your tangent. I'm [38:55] going to count from 1 2 3 and go. You [38:58] stage is yours. Your tangent. [39:00] Okay. So there is an article by Abby at [39:03] GitHub that talks about the quote [39:05] unquote graying of open source, right? [39:08] And it's how a lot of us are older now [39:11] and we're all old and gray, myself [39:13] included. Although I I do dye my hair so [39:15] you would never know it, but yeah. Um [39:17] And in you know, we have to be concerned [39:19] about the new folks coming in. So we [39:22] have to build on-ramps for people. We [39:24] have to make space for people to come in [39:27] to keep things going because if we all [39:29] retire, then who's left, right? We need [39:32] to keep that pipeline coming and we have [39:34] to create a space where people want to [39:36] come. They want to either contribute to [39:38] internals or contribute to PHP in some [39:40] other way, whether that's starting a [39:42] user group or whatever, but we need to [39:44] have that on-ramp and it [39:46] you know, the the internals I've I've [39:50] I've heard a couple of things that kind [39:51] of contradict each other, so I'm not [39:53] sure how I feel about it, but um [39:56] some folks think that it's perfectly [39:57] fine to be on a mailing list, perfectly [39:59] okay the way [40:01] the the culture of the mailing list is, [40:04] um which is great, awesome. I've also [40:07] heard from other folks that having it [40:08] just be on a mailing list is an [40:11] antiquated platform and it's makes it [40:13] tricky for new people who don't even [40:15] know what a mailing list is, don't know [40:17] how it works, you know, that's just [40:19] another barrier. So, you know, but then [40:22] again switching to a whole other [40:23] platform is like yeah, that's very [40:26] tricky. I mean, they've been on the [40:27] mailing list for forever, right? So, who [40:29] knows? I don't know what the answer is. [40:30] I don't know. I'm just relaying the [40:32] message, but um but you know, [40:35] just making sure that we are leaving [40:37] space and we are bringing new folks in, [40:40] I think is also a concern of mine [40:42] personally. Um and that's kind of hard [40:44] to do, you know, when you so much of [40:47] what PHP is based on is is is on trust [40:50] and there's so many people using the [40:51] language, it's hard to trust new people [40:54] because like do they even know what [40:56] they're doing? Can you know, it's a big [40:57] responsibility if you're contributing to [41:00] this massive thing that people really [41:02] depend on. Um so there's this like level [41:04] of trust that is tricky sometimes in [41:08] some places in the language for sure. [41:10] But if we don't figure out how to solve [41:12] that and how to how to trust new people, [41:16] then then we have a problem or we are [41:18] going to have a problem in 10, 20 years [41:20] when we are all you know, tired [41:23] >> [laughter] [41:24] >> and don't have the energy to contribute [41:25] anymore, Really old, really old. [41:28] Oh, oh. By the way, just quick shout-out [41:32] here. Celestino and Jed is saying they [41:34] just started with PHP and I always love [41:38] reading these messages because like [41:40] truth be told, not many people say this [41:43] and it is it is like a sign of the [41:46] problem that we're talking about here It [41:48] all feeds into itself, yeah. And I I [41:51] wish that, you know, [41:54] there are so many things that PHP could [41:56] improve on. I I I have my my wish list [41:59] for PHP. I make it I make it every year [42:01] again. Um but even in its current state, [42:05] it is it is such a great language and it [42:08] is a stable language with such a rich [42:11] ecosystem. Literally anything you can [42:14] think of, just composer require it [42:17] basically. That Yeah. And and [42:20] it's [42:22] that's that's why I love PHP so much. I [42:25] I'm like for myself, I would like some [42:27] syntax changes, right? And then and I I [42:29] blog about this and then people tell me, [42:32] "Oh, you're just describing C# or Java. [42:34] Just go to C# or Java." And I don't tell [42:37] them, "Yeah, but hang on, [42:39] you know, these syntax changes, they [42:41] would be nice for me, but you you don't [42:43] really realize how much value there is [42:46] in just this community and ecosystem [42:50] and [42:51] I don't want to leave that behind. There [42:54] is it's such a valuable [42:57] place to be [42:58] Oh man, it so is. Yeah. I'm sorry. I'm [43:01] like these are all the all the things [43:03] going through my head when someone say [43:06] says that they just started with PHP, [43:08] but it makes me really happy because I I [43:11] yeah, I I wish [43:15] This is what I wish for PHP. I want [43:18] people who have never experienced the [43:20] community or never written with the [43:21] language, people who are new to open [43:23] source, whoever, I want them to get a [43:25] seat at the table. I want them to [43:26] experience the the awesomeness the same [43:30] that I did, you know? I mean, I if I [43:32] would have had a bad experience with [43:34] PHP, I would not be in open source at [43:36] all. I would have just left. I would [43:37] have just, you know, use something else [43:38] and then I would be coding in a basement [43:40] somewhere, which yeah. I mean, is it [43:43] terrible, but [43:45] And you would be cutting out from time [43:47] to time because in the basement there [43:48] would be pretty pretty crappy [43:50] connection. [43:52] Yeah, I'm so sorry. [43:53] >> [laughter] [43:54] >> It's not. I'm so sorry. I I I I I I I I [43:56] I I I You were in a basement, you were [43:58] saying and then you cut out. [43:59] >> [laughter] [44:01] >> Maybe I should go to the basement. [44:02] >> Yeah, well, who knows? Who knows? [44:04] Maybe that would be better. [44:05] I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I [44:06] I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I [44:07] I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I [44:08] I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I [44:09] I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I [44:09] I I I I I I I I [44:15] PHP's the love in the community, that is [44:18] what makes PHP special. I mean, the [44:20] language is awesome and it can do [44:22] anything you want, but the love, you [44:24] can't replicate that, right? You can't [44:26] you can't get that from an AI [44:29] >> [laughter] [44:29] >> you know, an an agent. You The love that [44:31] we have for each other is what I want to [44:34] see grow and and I want new people to [44:36] experience it. I want them to thrive [44:38] personally, individually. I want them to [44:40] feel supported and that they belong. [44:42] Like I want all of those things for [44:44] everyone in this community, you know? [44:47] I know, I'm I'm a big cheese ball, but [44:48] oh well. I love cheese. It's great. [44:50] We're we're getting we're getting to [44:51] know you, Elizabeth. It's it's fine, [44:53] it's fine. So, you know, many people [44:55] asked technical questions as well. Um [44:59] generics, when when are generics coming? [45:01] >> [laughter] [45:02] >> What's the status update update on the [45:04] pattern matching RFC? [45:06] What's your opinion on, you know, [45:08] compiled PHP, multi-threaded PHP, async [45:11] PHP? [45:13] There was this whole list, but Yeah. You [45:16] you may share some thoughts about it, [45:17] but I think [45:19] I kind of steered away from from the [45:22] technical parts because it's so easy to [45:25] get lost in discussions on, "Yeah, this [45:28] is this is the way to go or this isn't [45:30] the way to go." While I think like the [45:33] the the most important topic to talk [45:35] about is what we're talking about here [45:37] and and that's So so I'm really happy [45:41] that that [45:43] we we aren't diving into deep rabbit [45:45] holes about generics or [45:48] async PHP or anything. I know people [45:50] have questions about that and so so I [45:53] did want to mention all like that that [45:55] part that part of questions. I can just [45:57] kind of make a statement here is that [45:59] any opinion I have [46:01] would be my own and not like I I shy [46:04] away also. I mean, I am a little rusty. [46:07] We'll just get there cuz it's been [46:08] probably 15 years since I really dug [46:10] deep and wrote code. Um that being said, [46:13] um [46:13] I do have some opinions. I will keep [46:15] them to myself only because there is um [46:21] some of the feedback I received was that [46:23] the foundation can be seen as like [46:26] trying to take over and we don't want [46:28] that. I don't want [clears throat] to [46:29] take over. I don't want to take over. I [46:31] want to support and I want to help and I [46:33] want to collaborate. So, I'm going to [46:35] leave that [46:36] just those discussions to other folks. [46:39] Um either, you know, you can have that [46:41] conversation with our contractors on a [46:42] personal like their own personal thing. [46:45] Um but they like none of those represent [46:47] the foundation's official stance and I [46:49] think that's where people get [46:51] hung up, too, is like, "Oh well, the [46:53] foundation said blah blah blah, then [46:55] we're going to have to, you know, that [46:57] No, I'm not doing that. So, um these are [47:00] these are all, you know, kind of [47:01] internals kind of questions and I know [47:03] that's like a a [47:05] terrible answer and it seems like a [47:07] cop-out, but I I really honestly don't [47:10] want anyone to confuse um my personal [47:12] technical uh Right. [47:15] >> uh thoughts from for being like an [47:17] official foundation statement or or the [47:19] right way because I I mean, I got [47:21] thoughts, but I don't know, you know, [47:23] there's a lot smarter people out there [47:26] than me. And we have such a deep [47:28] technical expertise pool at the at the [47:32] foundation between the contractors and [47:33] the board and, you know, the folks that [47:35] we work with. So, yeah, I mean, that [47:37] part's covered. So, [47:38] >> [laughter] [47:38] >> don't have to worry about that. Hm. [47:41] Well, and [47:43] I think that's a great stance [47:46] and I think you're absolutely right. I [47:48] will say [47:49] I can be biased. We need runtime erased [47:52] generics, folks. I'll just keep [47:54] repeating that. [47:55] You can say all you want, it's my [47:58] opinion, but I [47:58] >> [laughter] [47:58] >> I know I'm right on that on that regard. [48:01] And to be to be clear, any any of those [48:04] types of opinions, I will I will collect [48:06] like I will collect the data. And if if, [48:09] you know, everyone who comes to me [48:10] mentions something, then okay, like this [48:13] is something that should be on [48:14] somebody's radar, whether it's the [48:16] foundation, whether it's, you know, the [48:17] contracts like it should be there. So, [48:20] you know, [48:21] I I do want to hear opinions. So, just [48:23] to be clear, I would love to hear what [48:25] people have to say Well, in in that [48:26] case, I have a little presentation [48:28] prepared about generics. So, listen, no [48:30] >> [laughter] [48:34] >> Let's do a 1-hour presentation about [48:36] generics. No, I did that on on this [48:38] channel actually. If if you're [48:40] interested, go to go to PHP Annotated [48:43] and search for generics, you'll find it. [48:46] But but yeah, Elizabeth is is is cutting [48:48] out again, but it's the perfect time [48:49] because I was going on my rant about [48:51] generics, so that's that's that's great. [48:54] That's the way to go. Yeah. You know, [48:58] Elizabeth, I am [49:00] I heard a lot of of of great things [49:03] today and and this is this is the moment [49:05] where I I think we're going to wrap up. [49:07] Um [49:08] but if if I can just try to summarize [49:11] what you said and I'm really as I as I'm [49:13] saying that I'm I'm like, "Oh, this this [49:16] will be difficult." But but um [49:19] PHP's is so much more than the language [49:23] itself and the foundation's goal is for [49:26] PHP to thrive. That's that's something I [49:28] really remembered. And I think you [49:31] mentioned a lot of great things, [49:33] elements that contribute to that [49:36] language thriving [49:38] and the technical part is definitely an [49:40] important part. We shouldn't like [49:42] totally ignore that. [49:44] No, no, no. But but it is so much more [49:46] than that and I I really hope that as we [49:50] as a PHP community [49:52] um [49:53] we we grow this this this [49:57] um longing for our our favorite language [50:00] to to be known again in as as a modern [50:04] day language as not the language people [50:07] used to know 20 years ago. [50:09] 20 years ago it was really great. I mean [50:11] that's that's when it it grew so much [50:13] popularity but but [50:15] I'm I'm looking forward to maybe that [50:16] that second or is it third renaissance [50:19] of PHP? Yeah. [50:21] And and it is it is a very a tricky [50:25] thing to do, I guess. [50:27] But from from our conversation here [50:30] I would say like I'm I'm really happy [50:33] that that you have some thoughts here [50:35] that you're bringing to the table that [50:37] I think thinking are really important [50:39] and and so I would say they they put the [50:42] right person on [50:44] for the job here. So um [50:46] uh yeah, I I hope it will work out. [50:49] We'll we'll talk again in a couple of [50:50] years and if if nothing came from it and [50:52] and maybe I'll change my opinion but [50:54] >> [laughter] [50:55] >> No pressure. [50:59] uh [51:00] uh Christian here is saying saying uh on [51:03] chat features are the tools but [51:05] leadership is the engine. Uh I'll have [51:07] to think about it for a second but yeah, [51:09] I think there there is there's something [51:11] there. [51:12] Uh I I would n- [51:13] maybe also link in community there [51:15] somewhere but it is it is more than uh [51:19] just the code we write. And um it is [51:23] something I will help advocate for in [51:25] the future as well that this is this is [51:28] something that that PHP is so much more [51:30] than than the code. [51:32] So It is. I'm so excited. I mean I'm I I [51:36] can be annoying so apologies but I [51:38] really [laughter] I'm so excited about [51:41] >> After this stream is done I'm like oh [51:42] this was such a no. [51:45] >> [laughter] [51:46] >> Who let her in? Yeah, you you you can be [51:48] annoying. Yes, that were that's what we [51:49] were saying. Yes, okay. [51:51] Oh my goodness. No, um yeah, I I just [51:54] I'm so excited for the future of PHP and [51:57] I I think that you know, there are so [52:00] many others in the community who share [52:01] my enthusiasm and I really just want us [52:04] to move forward as a community and it's [52:07] cuz it's all on us, right? We're all in [52:09] it together. So [clears throat] if we [52:10] can all you know, kind of work to make [52:12] this the language and to share it with [52:15] the world, then I mean everybody's there [52:18] will be no there won't be anything else [52:20] but PHP. [clears throat] I'm just [52:21] kidding. That would be weird. [52:22] >> That would be I don't think I would like [52:23] that. I wouldn't think I like it twice, [52:24] you know, but um but yeah, I mean [52:27] there's just so many great things about [52:28] PHP and I just I want to share that. I [52:31] want people to know and and to [52:32] understand and to come join us, you [52:34] know, come have a seat at our table and [52:37] and enjoy yourselves and share knowledge [52:39] and and make friends and have fun [52:42] cuz that's what it's about, you know, we [52:43] could be doing anything else with our [52:44] time but if it's not enjoyable and if [52:47] you don't get value out of it [52:48] personally, then it's no good. So I [52:50] really want that to yeah. [52:53] With that we're going to to wrap up [52:56] but but as I mentioned at the start of [52:58] the stream, PHP verse is coming in June. [53:01] More details will be revealed soon. [53:03] Elizabeth, you will be there as well. I [53:05] think you'll be doing a a small talk [53:06] about like the foundation [53:09] and then we'll have Q&A as well so then [53:11] we can it will be a couple more months [53:13] in the future and who knows [53:15] what will have happened by then. Um but [53:19] yeah, definitely make sure to subscribe [53:21] to PHP annotated if you haven't yet [53:23] because that's this is the place where [53:25] we will stream [53:26] uh PHP first this year. So that's going [53:28] to be really cool. [53:30] Thank you for your time, Elizabeth. It [53:31] was really nice. Thank you. No, thank [53:33] you. It's my pleasure. 100% my pleasure. [53:36] And thank you everyone for participating [53:38] in chat as well. I know we didn't cover [53:39] every question but [53:42] um I I really appreciate it people [53:44] thinking along and sharing your [53:46] thoughts. [53:47] And then I hope to see all of you very [53:50] soon. So Elizabeth, thank you for [53:52] joining and [53:54] I'll see you next time. Bye-bye. Unfortunately, Youtube does not provide subtitles for this video, PHP Foundation Director interview, YouTube, 01krc44z0cwz12nhz051a6aypr.