Polygamy! ![rw-book-cover](https://img.youtube.com/vi/5kjBQqMSyN4/maxresdefault.jpg) ## Metadata - Author: [[YouTube]] - Full Title: Polygamy! - Category: #articles - Document Tags: [[ancient]] [[biblical]] [[cultural]] - Summary: Polygamy! - URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kjBQqMSyN4 hey, >> meet the computer you can talk to with Copilot on Windows. Working, creating, and collaborating is as easy as talking. [music] Got writer's block? Share your screen with Copilot Vision to help spark inspiration. And use Copilot Voice to have a conversation and brainstorm ideas. Or [music] maybe you need some tech help. With Copilot Vision, Copilot sees what you see. Let Copilot [music] talk you through step-by-step guidance so you can master new apps, games, and skills [music] faster. Try now at windows.com/copilot. With new gentler scented Clorox disinfecting wipes, clean finally smells as good as it feels on everything from lamps to [snorts] ceiling fans, even on your kid's toy Shark. Oh, ouch. Clorox disinfecting [music] wipes. Now available in Ooh, crisp lemon. Find it on Amazon. Clorox. Clean feels good. Thus, you should say to them, "My little finger is thicker than my father's loins." >> I'm going to assume that means what I think it means. >> It It does. He's He's holding up his pinky and going, "This is bigger than than uh my dad's Johnson." [music] Hey everybody, I'm Dan Mlelen. >> And I'm Dan Beecher. >> And you're listening to the data over dogma podcast where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion and we combat that pernitious spread of misinformation about the same. How are things today, Dan? >> Things are good. Things are good. Uh yeah, we got we've got a fascinating one. Uh this this I'm looking forward to this because the comments are about to get unhinged up in [laughter] her. >> Yeah. >> Uh if you don't watch our show on YouTube, which is totally great. Most of our uh the people who who partake of our wares don't. uh you might want to head over there and just see what the people are saying because uh it might people might get riled up because we're gonna talk polygamy and >> Dan's a Mormon so [laughter] >> ipso facto problems or something uh historically speaking um >> yes >> and uh so yeah we're going to talk about that in the first half of the show and then in the second half of the show uh we're going to get to uh one of one of the great practice practitioners of polygamy, but we're >> probably one of the most famous. Yeah. >> Yeah. Uh we're going to do some Solomon stuff. Uh he we're not going to talk about his polygamy in the second half. We might talk about it in the first half. Probably >> probably will. >> Uh definitely. >> Yeah, we're we're going to talk about uh the end of his reign and the beginning of his son and all kinds of other historical stuff surrounding that or ahistorical or whatever. [laughter] Uh so that'll be it'll actually be a lot of fun and it's very interesting. >> Yeah. >> Um but first let's uh let's dive in with taking issue [music] >> and the issue we're taking as we said is polygamy but more specifically I think polygyny. >> Polygyny. Yes. Because uh polygamy is as the Google has told me uh is is the practice of marriage with either multiple men, multiple husbands or multiple wives, >> right? >> Uh and I don't think that that first thing is what the Bible has anything to say on >> not so much new. So yeah, we're talking about polygyny or plural marriage is another uh more English term. I don't know. uh but is also unclear but generally is referring to a man taking multiple wives. And this is in the news right now because well as of recording >> anyway [laughter] >> who knows what the the news >> we may have been we may have been scooped by a couple weeks on this one. That's okay. There is a uh there's a pastor in like Missouri named Rich Tidwell who posted back in June on his blog about basically coming out as as polygamous. >> Yeah. >> Uh he has two wives and eight children between the two of them. Some of them have been adopted. >> Uh but this for whatever reason people have only become aware of it uh recently at the beginning of November >> and it is went, "Oh, wait a minute. Wait, what?" [laughter] >> And so, uh, it has caused a bit of a firestorm on social media as evangelicals are swooping in to condemn, >> uh, this this pastor who posted a biblical defense of polygamy on his blog. And I want to talk about the argument that he makes uh, and then talk about whether or not I think it's supported by the data. Okay. >> But yeah, and and certainly, you know, high jinks will ensue. There's plenty of opportunity for [laughter] for all kinds of uh comedy and uh and other things. >> I'm just going to put a marker down now. Uh be me being the ignorant guy on the podcast. I'm I am definitely putting a marker down for >> the Bible supports polygamy quite a bit. >> Quite a bit. >> It may not It may not be across the board. It may not be a, you know, a a total like support every witchwear, >> but uh >> there there's a lot of polygamy in the Bible and sanctioned polygamy at that. >> Exactly. Yeah. And that is where and and that's one of the things that that he starts off with. There are there are three passages that he points to from the Hebrew Bible that he suggests indicates God's sanctioning of polygamy, God's approval of polygamy. >> Sure. Um and and I think there I think um I think a couple of them at least make good sense. One of them I'm I'm not so convinced by the and the uh the ear and and that would be the earliest one chron chronologically canonically uh Genesis 30:8. Uh, and this is where we have uh Jacob and Jacob gets tricked into marrying the wrong woman and has to work for another seven years. And we've got an episode where we talk about >> that was a fun trick. What a great what a great trick that was. [laughter] >> Sorry, you said this was Genesis what? >> Uh, chapter 30:8. >> Okay. And so the woman he uh was tricked into marrying, Leah, said, "God has gi and obviously this is NRSVE, but I'm going to talk a little bit about the translation." God has given me my hire because I gave my maid to my husband. So she named him Issachar. And uh and and hire here is a word that means like recompense, wages, payment, >> right? Um, so God has given me my wages because I gave my maid to my husband and made there I'm pretty sure is uh the word for uh yeah maid servant or or a female enslaved person. >> Okay. >> So Leah's like here hubby have this other wife and uh >> and then God rewarded her for that. That is what Leah is saying that God has rewarded her for uh for making that sacrifice of giving >> uh her husband another wife. So Jacob is just racking up wives and uh the 12 sons of of Israel Jacob uh come from a variety of different uh women. So, so that's a suggestion that at least according to Leah, God is was happy with this, rewarded her her for that, >> right? >> Um, another one that I think is a a little better uh argument, has a little better uh case to make is uh in 2 Samuel and this is 2 Samuel 12 and verse 7 are seven and 8 are the important ones. And this is where Nathan is chewing Nathan, excuse me, is chewing David out. So, you remember the the you are the man speech. And uh and here he says, "You are the man." Oh, hey, there it is. Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, I anointed you king over Israel, and I rescued you from the hand of Saul. And then verse 8 says,"I gave you your master's house and your master's wives into your bosom and gave you the house of Israel and of Judah. And if that had been too little, I would have added as much more." So here we have God ostensibly through the prophet Nathan declaring that God gave David many, many, many, many wives. Basically said, "Saul's wives, they're now your wives." >> Right? And >> among other, you know, various cash and prizes. >> Yes. Yes. There are other prizes as well. And and the argument that I've seen made is that when it says gave them into your bosom, the idea here is I transitioned them to your protection. In other words, they were living uh in Saul's household and now they're you are responsible for them, which which is nonsense because one, it's like I gave you all this cool stuff. Oh, and also this burden, >> this responsibility. >> Yes. Which is very clearly not what God is is saying here. God is saying, "I gave you all these women to have sex with. >> You're welcome." >> Yeah. Ha. And uh and so very clearly that represents God prophetically as not only endorsing but facilitating uh plural marriage >> including women who had been uh with another man which is a little peculiar. Um and then there there's another one that I think is uh might even be a little stronger. 2 Chronicles 24 and we're looking at verses and we we can start at verse one, but we're going to go to verse three. >> Verse one says, "Joash was 7 years old when he began to reign. He reigned 40 years in Jerusalem. His mother's name was Zibia of Beersa. Joash did what was right in the sight of the Lord all the days of the priest Jehoeda." Yeah. >> And then verse three says, "Jeoeda got two wives for him and he became the father of sons and daughters." >> Okay. >> Pretty clearly the author is suggesting that if Jehoeda got two wives for Joash and Joash did everything that was right in the sight of the Lord all the days of the priest, Jehoeda, that >> and Jehoeda is the priest, God's representative or whatever. that that is sanctioned, endorsed by God, >> right? And that and that's some New Testament stuff because I think I I I I think when we talk about this that's going to it it tapers off towards the new like the the support for polygamy I thought tapers off. >> It does. It does tapers off. >> But uh but so I'm actually surprised to hear a to hear that. Yeah. And that sounds like it's not there. There's certainly no fullthroated condemnation happening of uh of of politics. >> No. No. Not uh not by any stretch of the imagination. Although there is a passage that some people will point to as an indicator that polygamy was not what God wanted. >> And this is a weird one. Again, it's an interpretation that is forced and is nonsensical. Um, but Leviticus 18:18, uh, from the NRSVU, and you shall not take a woman as a rival to her sister, uncovering her nakedness while her sister is still alive. So, the idea here is obviously, hey, if you've already got a wife, don't marry her sister also. >> Okay, >> that's, you know, that's uh that's a problem. again that that that casts a weird light on the Jacob story. [laughter] >> Yeah. Um but and and some folks think Leviticus 18 and 20 were actually these laws are actually following the narrative of Genesis. And so the idea is they're they're making laws basically to address all of the circumstances and situations that are that are happening in in Genesis. And so this could be precisely saying, "Hey, what happened with Jacob and and Leah and and Rachel?" Yeah, maybe don't do that. >> That's not that's not for you. That was for him, not you. [clears throat] >> But the argument is that uh this does not mean this is not only limited to a biological sister. But just don't take any woman as a uh who could become a rival to a first wife. Meaning polygamy no good. Uh and and >> that reading isn't supported by anything. That's right. >> That's silly. >> Yeah. >> But probably the most common objection and I you know what? I don't even know if if uh Tidwell actually brings this objection up in his blog post. seems like he should, but I don't think he does. I don't think he I don't think he engages the argument. Genesis 2:24, which we've talked about uh many times in the past, thus a a man shall leave his father and his mother's house and cleave unto his woman, and the two of them shall be one flesh. >> Right? >> And this is taken as a prescription of how what God's pattern plan ideal for marriage is. In other words, it's supposed to be one man, one woman, one vote. Um, [laughter] [clears throat] but as we've discussed before, it's clearly not a prescription of proper u marriage. It's just a descriptive ideology of pair bonding and independent kinship units. It's not saying it must be one man and only one woman because obviously the rest of Genesis is chock full of Israel's heroes and even precursors marrying multiple women. Uh and so the the authors are very clearly okay with uh polygyny and so are are obviously not condemning that. So, there [clears throat] are a bunch of passages in the Hebrew Bible that just outright endorse uh if not just condone polygamy. >> Yeah. >> Things start to change when we get to Greor Roman period Judaism. And not because of the Bible, but in spite of the Bible. It's because of Greek philosophy and Greco Roman social conventions and mores. Because while the the Greeks and the Romans were pretty socially loose maybe >> um you know you wanted to uh fidelity within marriage might not have been at the top of their list of priorities but they did find polygyny to be a practice of weirdos. Um they didn't really like it. >> Right. And then there were um Greek philosophical treatises that kind of talk about the the structure of society and things like that and the household and and how it's all supposed to work and uh and that endorsed monogamy as well. Although, you know, slaves were were entirely permitted and everything like that. >> Totally fair game. >> Yeah. And >> and a side piece here and there is obviously fine, >> right? So this [clears throat] this rubbed off on Greor Roman period Judaism. And so they didn't come out and say we no longer accept polygamy, but it was less and less common. So that you didn't really you didn't really see it happening because it wouldn't have been acceptable within this Greco Roman context. And so by the time of the New Testament, you polygamy is not really polygyny. Excuse me. We agreed before filming that we were going to use polygyny and not polygamy. I mean, we could say polygamy. It's because most times when someone uses the word polygamy, they're talking about the practice of marrying multiple wives because that's that's been the only one, you know, the only thing that's been practiced in in for most of >> what we what is commonly known in human history. There may be some some uh polyandrous societies, but I've never heard of them. Yes, the I think they m mostly exist in comic books. Um, but [laughter] [snorts] >> but yeah, I'm I can't think of any off the top of my head, but if you do know of some, uh, by all means, >> let us know. >> Um, [clears throat] >> and and so you polygyny is not really that big a deal, but you do have some places where it seems to be >> uh poo pooed uh or or if not condemned. So in the Dead Sea Scrolls, it seems to uh to not approve of polygyny, >> right? >> New Testament has no outright condemnation of polygyny at all. It just seems to have been the norm that that you only marry one wife at a time. The one exception would be First Timothy 3:2. Now, 1 Timothy, pastoral epistle, not Paul. >> Okay? Um this is uh this is pseudo Pauline. This is after Paul's death. This is somebody trying to appropriate Paul's authority by pretending to be Paul. But we have uh in this passage the author is explaining what is required to be an overseer or a bishop and says that he must be a man of one woman which is probably intended to address fidelity within marriage and then not remarrying after either divorce or the death of a spouse. Because there there was actually and and you know you see this in Matthew that if a man divorces his wife for anything other than than sexual infidelity that uh he commits adultery by marrying another woman and causes her to commit adultery if she marries another man. So um you know you weren't supposed to get remarried. You have one wife and and that's your wife and and that's it. >> You used yours. You used your one. You're you're you're >> ran out. Yeah. Um, but it does seem to suggest that they're not they would not approve of, right, >> a polygamous uh polygenous uh marriage for a a leader. And and a lot of people try to insist that when it says uh overseer or bishop, that means pastor, but it doesn't. Uh pastor is only mentioned once in all of the New Testament, and that is in Ephesians 4. >> What's the difference? Well, they're different offices within the church and they're entirely different words in Greek, but but there are folks who try to make the case that there's a there's a passage in Acts that talks about elders and overseers kind of being the same and talking about how they are to pasture or pastor the flock. >> So, it uses verbs associated with pastoring to refer to them and and so people will say, see that means a pastor is just the same thing. But the Gospel of John uses the verb pastoring to refer to an apostle as well as Jesus as well as Jesus's followers. So like that the use of that verb by itself doesn't mean this is a reference to the ecclesiastical office of a pastor which again is only ever only known from Ephesians. Ephesians also probably not Paul. That's not one of the uh outright spurious epistles, but one of the disputed uh epistles. So, >> but also probably a later thing like you know, it it sounds to me like that's that's when the organization the organization chart has started to appear. >> Yes. Yes. The org chart is showing up in emails and irritating everybody. Um but yeah, that's that's a more developed hierarchy, a more developed institution where they've got these offices and that's and Paul would not have been operating with those with those institutions. Anyway, [music] >> Dan, I don't know about you, but I enjoy a high-end mattress, but don't necessarily enjoy sky-high price tags. I know you love your mattress. What model is yours? Uh, I got the Plank Firm Lux. I got to have the firmst mattress I can. I've got a back that has been struggling for 15 years now. And this is one of the only things that makes it so I can get out of bed and jump to work. And I also got the Glacioteex uh covers just because I sleep hot. I just run hot in general and this helps keep me cool throughout the night. 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Need tickets to [music] see your favorite artist? Craving your comfort restaurant? Just sit back, relax, and talk naturally. Alexa's on it. It learns your style, anticipates [music] what's next, and makes it happen across Echo, Fire TV, and more. Learn more at amazon.com/new Alexa. But anyway, 1 Timothy 3:2, even though it probably is not directly addressing polygyny, it would preclude polygenous marriages. Even though it it is also just about the standards for someone who wants to hold that position. It's not necessarily saying any follower of Jesus cannot do this, but it probably would have been a standard that became pretty widespread. So, we do have one passage that does seem to uh seem to prohibit polygyny in the New Testament, and Rich Tidwell is not ignorant of that passage. So, >> okay, >> he makes an argument for why 1 Timothy 3:2 does not prohibit polygyny. Uh he says [clears throat] in 1 Timothy 3:2, Paul utilizes the Greek word mia, which we translated as one in English. And he talks a little bit about this in uh in another passage. Although mia may translate as an indefinite one or a as in the indefinite article in the context of marriage in 1 Timothy 3:2, MIA means ordinal first. If Paul intended to communicate a man must have numeral one wife to be in ministry, he would have employed the word he as he did in 1 Timothy 5:9, the same epistle because he explicitly means numeral one. Mia must be used in 1 Timothy 3:2 as a grammatical rule. Uh read my response titled the Mia and he saga. Therefore, 1 Timothy 3:2 ought to be translated the husband of his first wife. as Paul like Jesus is preventing hypergami and divorce. In other words, he still has to be married to his first wife. >> Should I make a guess as to your response to this? [laughter] >> Let's see. >> Because I don't know anything about the the grammar or uh or words of Greek, but I'm going to guess that you're going to object to his uh his explanation of how these words are used. Yes, it's it's nonsensical. [laughter] Um, he says, "A man who divorces his first wife to marry another, as Jesus prohibits in Matthew 19:19, also see also Malachi 2:15-16, is not fit for eldership in the church." Paul is not addressing polygyny nor disqualifying the patriarchs from ministry. He is prohibiting hypergamy and serial monogamy among the elders of the church. And then then he goes on to say something interesting. Moreover, do we truly believe that if Abraham, Jacob, or David resurrected, a possibility according to Matthew 27:52-53, they would not be permitted to hold office or preach in the church. These polygamous men wrote or are featured in many of our holy scriptures, but we wouldn't give them a microphone today. What utter nonsense? I believe the answer to these questions lies in Romans 11:23. These polygamous men of the Bible were called by God and retained their offices despite their having several wives. Um, and I and I saw somebody who uh responded to that particular argument by barking that yes, absolutely they would be prohibited from being [snorts] pastors. And and they went on to say even God prohibited David from building the temple because he was a a man of war. And so God can withhold certain offices and and responsibilities from from people. He he didn't address Jacob or Abraham, but um but I but I think that's an interesting argument. And yeah, the 1 Timothy 3:2, the notion that um uh that Mia and Heath really carry these these significant differences that must be maintained context independent uh doesn't really work. uh it it can be used that way. Uh but it doesn't mean we have to use it. >> Well, if it can be used that way, then there's some legitimacy maybe to his argument. >> Well, there's there's the Yeah, it's basically the you can't prove it's false argument. It's a it's possible. Um we're we're jinning up that tiny little sliver of of not impossible, >> right? >> Um >> but yeah, there there are no scholars who read it that way. Um, but it is >> he does seem like he has a a a motivation a specific motivation to little bit of motivation reading. >> I [laughter] feel like it's I I feel like the most interesting part of this whole thing is that the, you know, if you want to use the Bible to justify polygamy, polygyny, whatever, that seems easy. That's like he's not wrong. >> Yeah. Not as easy as defending slavery, but certainly uh easier than than defending same-sex intercourse or something like that. >> Yeah. >> Like there's there is ample ample um evidence that that it was considered okay by God. And this is another thing that he talks about according to the Bible, God does not change, >> right? >> So if God is okay with polygamy in the Hebrew Bible, God is okay with polygamy in the New Testament. And this is something that that is a a bit of a a um a problem for the folks who who want to understand the Bible to be condemning polygamy. Why would God allow it in in one part of the Bible and then prohibit it in another if God does not >> allow it in the most important figures in the Bible? >> Condone and even endorse it. Yeah. Yeah. >> And and so it it does raise the question of um you know we have other well not we as in me but a lot of these folks assert certain dogmas about God's unchanging nature and about the universality of the moral principles on which the gospel is founded. >> Yeah. >> How do you get around that? And that is why I think you have a lot of folks who try to argue that that God actually prohibited or didn't like polygyny, just tolerated it. Like I'm not sure about this. Um, but I I'll, you know, I'll see where this is going. And and so people will bring up the argument that throughout the Hebrew Bible, uh, polygenous marriages are are characterized by conflict and problems. It's like every relationship in the Hebrew Bible is characterized by tension and conflict. Uh >> every relationship in humanity is characterized by like I don't know if you've had a spouse or a or or [laughter] a relationship, but you're going to have conflict. That is uh that that's a guarantee. >> And they're like, "Bad things always happen." It's like Adam and Eve are a monogous marriage. The worst thing happened, right? Yeah. >> And you know, you've got all kinds of all kinds of circumstances. Like everybody who has a brother in the Hebrew Bible runs into all kinds of problems. It's like, does that mean that having a brother is is uh frowned upon? God's like, I don't know about this one. Um, let's get him. You know, I think I it's so interesting that the Bible is so obviously explicit about this and so overwhelmingly uh so so loaded with it as you know example after example and you know I suppose we should bring up Solomon who like is the he's putting up Wilt Chamberlain numbers with [laughter] >> and and and that that works on two different levels. So well well we might get to the rest of that [laughter] but uh but yeah I mean he he what does he have 700 wives and 300 concubines or something like according to the thing. >> So like and you know there's no part of that that's condemned. There are things that like the Bible's like oh Solomon wasn't good about this or whatever but it's not that >> well >> that's that's ex except that they're foreign wives and >> yes they're foreign wives and they influence him towards uh and and so and you know people will bring that up as well. Well, look what happened to Solomon with all them foreign wives. It's like, well, he still had more than one local wife, and that didn't cause any problems. God wasn't like, I'm not too hot on that other thing, either. >> And his dad was like his dad was loaded up, too. >> Yeah. >> Uh David David had multiple wives as well. >> Yep. >> So, I I don't know. It's just the thing that's weird to me is that you can look at this book, you can read all of those stories of all of these men who have all of those wives and then because your culture obviously is not okay with that. You know, I my my parents were both LDS historians. They were both historians of Mormonism and uh they so I'm I'm fairly familiar with uh Mormon history and of course famously >> infamously infamously >> famously [laughter] >> the Mormons the early Mormons and then later fundamentalist break off offshoots of Mormonism practiced polygyny. >> Yes. >> And uh the way that the world >> I live in a city where one of them ran for mayor. Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. Yeah. >> I can see the house, their compounds uh from my front yard. >> Yeah. Okay. Well, there you go. So, it's it's still around, but the way historically that the uh that American culture came crashing down on these people >> for this thing. And I, you know, to on one hand, I get it in the sense that I I think that the the polygyny of Mormonism uh creates a a wild power imbalance. It is something that is entered into uh often unwillingly by the women. Yeah. >> And and it is often forced upon women and it is it like the way it is practiced is not consensual and therefore not there's no way to excuse it. But how did these did this country come down so incredibly hard? Like literally people were saying the dual barbarism. I don't remember the exact quote, but they were equating slavery and polygamy as being the the two barbaric practices of the United States of America. >> Yeah. Reynolds versus the United States from 1879. >> Oh, okay. There you go. >> There was the Yeah. And the um [laughter] a lot of people have been like this. They didn't really have that good of an argument. Um because because it was mainly just like you know this is characteristic of barbaric people, right? >> And um and and I think also said it always leads to abuse or or something like that, right? >> Um >> which I I I think it's plain to see. I if you watch any reality TV, you know that it doesn't necessarily lead to abuse. wasn't I never actually watched a single episode of Sister Wives, but it it seems like he probably wasn't abusive. I don't know. Would they He wouldn't get to keep his his reality show if he was abusive. [laughter] >> I I didn't watch any of it either. I don't I don't know. But yeah, you I think >> I couldn't get past his hairstyle to be perfectly honest. And I'm not one to talk. I know that. [laughter] >> Uh I just think >> I wasn't going to say anything. I just think that it's really weird that uh that Bible believing people, people purporting to be Bible believers are so vehement against this. Like I get why you're vehement against slavery. That makes sense to me. And I get why you'd be vehement against the a practice that was entered into against a woman's will. That I I understand as well. >> Yeah. But presuming that adults enter into a an arrangement of their own free will and with their with their consent, full consent and uh and approval. I don't know how biblically minded people condemn that. I [clears throat] I don't get it. Well, we've we've already seen that that folks who would identify as biblically minded people have have a way of massaging what the Bible [snorts] is is minding them um about. So, um, but it's interesting within Judaism because I've mentioned before one of the reasons that Christianity and Judaism, um, deviated so so significantly from each other is because Christianity really leaned into uh, Greek philosophy and and the [clears throat] Greco Roman world, whereas Judaism tried to distinguish itself from it and rejected >> uh, Greek philosophy and to some degree. it was still quite influential but you know they they were like septuagent not for us we're going back to the Hebrew we're going back to hakic legislation all this stuff and so for centuries after the split from Christianity while Christianity is is rejecting polygamy Judaism was kind of like we're a little uncomfortable with this uh we we we can't really find a reason to object in the Hebrew Bible but we just don't like it. So, like you have Josephus referring to it as an ancestral custom in one of his texts, but and it's like around a thousand CE when Greek philosophy and and just philosophy in general becomes a lot more influential within Judaism that you finally have some some uh Jewish philosophers who are like, "Yeah, no polygamy. We're we're just we're just outlawing it. It's just not good." So, um, so they they had a longer time, um, coming down, uh, as firmly as they ultimately did, uh, against polygamy. But, but yeah, it it does seem like something that, uh, you know, people appeal to all the time. People appeal to the Hebrew Bible and God's design for marriage as as what should [laughter] be governing how marriage works. Um, and uh, except when it comes to that part when they're like, and then they they'll go to Genesis 2:24. Um, and and I just want to be clear uh, because people are going to accuse me of being a dirty dirty Mormon who is just trying to defend polygamy, >> right? >> You could not be more mistaken about [laughter] my position on marriage. Uh, so, so [laughter] as as frequently as I have to remind people that I'm doing my darnest to just represent the data and the scholarly consensus, that's what I'm doing here. And this should in no way, shape, or form whatsoever be misconstrued as me >> defending polygamy cuz I like it. I have already been accused of that countless times [laughter] just because I posted a video a few days ago about this. So, >> of the two of us, I'm the one who's more likely to [laughter] come to the defense of >> Yes. >> of uh of non-traditional uh uh marriage slash uh love practices. I suppose I don't I don't support polygyny, religiously mandated polygyny. I certainly don't support that. >> Certainly not. Yeah. And and and and I think that's one of the the big issues is is if it is something that is religiously sanctioned then I I think it does pressure folks particularly young folks growing up in that kind of society that conditions them to think this is this is my role this is what I have to do. I mean, you already have women on Twitter saying, "We need to repeal the 19th amendment only because the men around them in their lives and uh, you know, kind of in control in of their worldview are are conditioning them and convincing them that they need to defend that uh that particular limit to their agency." And and I think the last thing we need is uh you know a bunch of folks raising up young girls to to believe that uh they have their only goal in life ought to be becoming a polygamous wife of of uh another uh Tidwell or whomever. >> Yeah. And too often in those situations as we see with fundamentalist uh Mormons currently and uh historical Mormons back in the 1800s and early 1900s uh when it be when it's when it's culturally especially when it's shrouded in cultural shame uh and and becomes this insular thing really bad practices crop up. So like you know 14year-old women being forcibly married off to 50some year old men that sort of thing it's >> because God said so. >> Yeah it's Epstein level not okay. So, uh, so yes, [sighs and gasps] >> and as of recording, >> as of there's been a bunch of emails that have dropped and and you know, well, I'm sure that the dust will have settled to some degree unless more emails are dropping. Uh, >> yeah. Yeah. Who know? It's it's raining Epstein letters at this point. >> Okay. with [laughter] right. Let let's let's erase uh our brains from that for a little bit and let's actually move on to our chapter and verse. >> This holiday, discover meaningful gifts for everyone [music] on your list at K. Not sure where to start? Our jewelry experts are here to help you find or create the perfect [music] gift in store or online. Book your appointment today and unwrap love this season only at K. This episode is brought to you by Blink. Blink Friday starts now with up to 65% [music] off Blink Smart Security. Check on your pets all season long with new Blink Mini 2K Plus cameras. See your gifts arrive in headtotoe view with Blink Video Doorbell. Ready to use right out of the box. Just unwrap Blink and go. From pet parents to jet setters to busy families, Blink Friday deals have your holidays covered. Shop now at amazon.com/blink. This episode is brought to you by [music] Netflix. Jay Kelly, the new film from Academy Award nominee Noah Bombach. George Clooney stars as an actor confronting his past and present on a journey of self-discovery alongside Adam Sandler [music] as his devoted manager. Critics are calling it a declaration of love to the chaotic art of filmm with the Wall Street Journal praising it as [music] a transcendent comedy drama. Watch J. Kelly December 5th only on Netflix. And the chapter I guess is we're I guess what we're going to do is we're going to get to first Kings chapter 11. >> Yeah. >> Uh and this is this is it's this is the thing. It starts out with [snorts] uh talking about uh the marriages of of Solomon >> uh and and the fact that he loved many women, many foreign women. >> Uh that was the problem. It wasn't the many women. It was the fact that they were Moabitete and Ammonite and Edomite and Cidian and Hitittite uh women. >> Yes. >> Uh and not only were was he in love with these women, but he was building shrines to their gods on the hills. Uh so so that's that's sort of the Yeah. 700 princesses and 300 concubines. Princesses. Okay. I have seen wives in translations, but >> what does it say? It says nashim, which would mean women or or wives in Hebrew. Why? Why does Why does it say princess? >> Oh, n rsv. Are you getting >> Oh, no. No. It says wives and then it says uh sot, which would be which would be the feminine plural of uh sar, which would be uh a prince or a noble. Okay. Nobleman. So, yeah. >> Um princesses and 300 concubines. So wait, it says among his his wives were 700 princesses. >> The non-pres probably there's a couple hundred more of those. Who knows? [laughter] >> Again, it's the it's those Chamberlain numbers. Anyway, >> and um yeah, who knows how many trombones and >> [laughter] >> uh and the camels. Yes, June. Love the camels. Um >> see, I see how I was able to bring in not just the music man, but also Aladdin. >> Yeah, man. You you you went all over the map with that. You you encircled the globe twice uh on that one. [laughter] >> But it says, "When Solomon was old, his wives turned away his heart after other gods, and his heart was not true to the Lord his God, as was the heart of his father, David." Kind of. >> Yeah. Kind of. >> And David kind of got the the raw end of the heart. >> David fudged the rules a little bit here and there, but sure. Yeah. >> Uh so and but I mean I think the main thing is and this is something that we've talked about the main one of the things that we need to remember here is that >> uh and one of the things that was never talked about in my religious upbringing >> was the fact that these other gods that Solomon was uh was kind of falling prey to were real gods by >> they believed them to be yes >> they believed them to be real gods. So this is a this is like really treading on uh on Adonai's turf here. >> Yeah. Yeah. And you you have uh a first Kings 11 is interesting for so many reasons. Verse 5 refers to Solomon following Estarte, the goddess of the Sidonians and Milcom, the abomination of the Ammonites. >> Right? >> So Milcom was a patron deity of of the Ammonites. But then you excuse me, you go down to verse 7 and it says, "Then Solomon built a high place for Kamosh, the abomination of Moab." We've talked about Chemosh before. And for Molech, the abomination of the Ammonites. So we've just seen it was Milcom, who's the abomination of the Ammonites. And now we have >> Oh, yeah. That's right. >> Molech, the abomination of the Ammonites. This is this is a a scribal corruption. >> Okay. there has been a a change where Milcom and Molech the only difference in written Hebrew anciently is one letter the M on the end um of of the uh the word the name and so obviously the the mem has just fallen out >> uh from >> excuse me from the uh from the word milcom >> and so a lot of people use this as a to argue that Molech was recognized as a deity and Molech is was not a deity. Molech was just a a type of sacrifice and then later Greek translators and and later folks confused it for the name of a deity that >> Okay, so we're saying we're saying that Milcom is the actual deity and Molech was was an incorrect >> corruption. Yeah, textual um oopsy. >> I do think that Milcom is would be a good name for a software company. >> Um yeah, >> it just sounds right. I don't know. Uh, Milcom and Molech would be a good would be an interesting name for a uh like a >> affirm. [laughter] Oh, a buddy comedy. I love it. >> The two the two abominations of the Ammonites. Uh, [laughter] I I like it. >> Yeah. >> All right. So, >> okay. >> Let's Yeah, let's go on with the story here. >> I'm going to get down to verse uh 23. >> Okay, sounds good. >> We have some adversaries raised against Solomon. Resin, son of Eliada, who had fled from his master, King Hadada of [laughter] Zoa. Um, the whenever >> I just wanted to say that [laughter] >> whenever on uh like the Simpsons, they always have Ned Flanders saying some kind of nonsensical name from >> from uh from the Bible. This is this is one that I would have if I didn't know this passage, I would have been like, they made that up. That's not in [laughter] the Bible. King Hadad Desair >> of Zad had deser. Yeah. Okay. >> Yeah. Um it's just Hadad Ezer. Hadad was the name of a deity. Ezer would just means help of. So So help of Hadad. Hadad's uh helper. And um [clears throat] >> while we're talking about names because it's going to come up, what is the what does the suffix boam mean? Um >> because we're gonna get a Jeroboam and a and a what's the son's name? >> Uh Jeroboam and Reoboam, >> right? >> Yes. Um so the uh the am on the end is not is not clear. Uh it could mean uh like it could mean people. Am means people. It could mean uh uncle. Like there's there's a um there's a form of this word that that has reference to a male uh ancestor. Could mean an uncle god. Uh it could be a deformationation of gerubal. >> Oh, >> so Jeroboam, Jerobal. The they're spelled the same except for the the mem on the end instead of a lamemed. So, um, at least [clears throat] when it comes to, uh, Jeroboam, it's not clear what exactly is, uh, is going on with the with the on the end of the name. Now, when it comes to Rayoboam, um, this is more likely to be like the the um, ra means to be wide. Um, and this is a word that can mean street uh in Hebrew. So it might be this uncle god is has made wide or maybe it's the people have become extensive. They've spread out. >> Okay. >> Um, so >> uncle god on the street is what I'm going with. >> Uncle God on the street. Yeah. [laughter] So that >> all right. Sorry that was a that I I I I took us off down a rabbit trail. No worries. Um, but we have Jeroboam and and this is a this is an interesting story. Uh, oh, so, so anyway, a lot of people made trouble in Solomon's neighborhood. They were up to no good. >> Um, and then Jeroboam uh shows up and he's he's like a a day laborer and he's coming down to Jerusalem and he's he's helping up with helping out with stuff. And verse 28 says, 'When Solomon saw that the young man was industrious, he gave him charge over all the forced labor of the house of Joseph. And so forced labor, this would be Corv labor. This is the the king of Judah requiring that the people from the northern kingdom who would have been subjugated to Judah require they send folks um on a certain schedule to come do forced labor. So >> uh this is this is not really slavery. It's something a bit different. And um and then Jeroboam's leaving Jerusalem. Work day is over. He's going home and a prophet Ahijah the Shilonite found him on the road and he had he and he had a new garment on and he gives it to uh um to uh Jeroboam but tears it into 12 pieces which is kind of like cool. Thanks. What? Um >> uh [laughter] thanks for the shirt. I guess I'll It's rags now. >> Yeah. Um he says, "Take for yourself 10 pieces, for thus says the Lord, the God of Israel. See, I am about to tear the kingdom from the hand of Solomon, and will give you 10 tribes. One tribe will remain his for the sake of my servant David, and for the sake of Jerusalem, the city that I've chosen out of all the tribes of Israel." This is because he has forsaken me. worshiped Estarte, the goddess of the Sidonians, and so on and so forth. >> Um, so it it's this symbolic, you know, the prophet's always doing weird symbolic stuff. Look at this jar. I'm going to break this jar. Look, I'm nude. Look, I'm tearing your your coat into 12 pieces. Um, so they're >> Can you just put Can you put your clothes back on, [laughter] please? No. Oh. Oh, you're tearing it up. Great. Okay. Um, so basically the the 10 pieces are are represent the 10 tribes of Israel, which would be the northern kingdom. So basically Jeroboam. So what what he's saying is Jeroboam is going to get to be king even though he's just this day laborer guy. >> Yeah. The prophet is like, "Hey, guess what? You're going to take over 10 of the 12 tribes of Israel." And um and Jeroboam is is represented as as rather humble. Um but Solomon finds out about this. And Solomon >> That's you never want that. That's never any good. >> Solomon not happy. But uh so he tries to kill Jeroboam. Jeroboam promptly flees to Egypt uh to King Shishak of Egypt. And he remains in Egypt until Solomon dies. >> Yeah. >> Um and then Solomon's dead, reigned in Jerusalem 40 years, slept with his ancestors, was buried in the city of his father David. And his son Rayoboam succeeded him. Now, Rayoboam and and here's the thing. There was never a single United Kingdom. Uh scholars are pretty sure that Judah in the south and Israel in the north were originally separate kingdoms. And there there was a there would have been a time maybe where uh where Israel might have subjugated the southern kingdom or maybe the southern kingdom subjugated the northern kingdom which is how it's represented in this text which is by the way being written from the perspective of somebody who lived in the southern kingdom. Um and so Rayoboam goes up to Sheckchham which is the the capital of the northern kingdom for all Israel had come to Sheckchham to make him king. And then Jeroboam heard about it and he comes back from Egypt. Um and uh or no, he stays in Egypt and they they call him and uh all the they sent and called him in Jeroboam and all the assembly of Israel came and said to Raboam, "Your father made our yoke heavy." So you know Jeroboam is a forced laborer. Um now therefore lighten the hard service of your father and his heavy yoke that he placed on us and we will serve you. basically saying, "Look, the Northern Kingdom, your dad was mean to us. If you will be nicer to us, we will happily be part of your kingdom, >> right? >> Chill out a little bit. Let's uh let's be kind. Rewind and uh and and maybe we can all get along." >> And King Rayoboam took counsel with the older men who had attended his father Solomon while he was still alive, saying, "How do you advise me to answer the people?" So he's he's basically going to the elders who were his dad's adviserss and they said if you will be a servant to this people and serve them and speak good words to them when you answer them then they will be your servants forever. Then he went to the cool kids the younger crowd >> right >> and uh who grew up with him. So his >> Steven Millers of the world, >> his friends and uh and he says, "What do you advise?" Uh and they said, "Thus you should say to this people who spoke to you, your father made your our yoke heavy, but you must lighten us for us. Thus you should say to them, my little finger is thicker than my father's loins." [laughter] >> Which is >> I'm going to assume that means what I think it means. >> It It does. He's he's holding up his pinky and going, you know, this is this is bigger than uh than uh my dad's Johnson. >> Mean meaning I suppose that like >> my dad was a wimp and I and and because having a big schlong is uh >> it makes you stronger as a human, as a person or [laughter] something makes you more powerful as a man. >> Yeah. you the the the one with the bigger schnitz and grooin is is the the manor man. Um so he says my father disciplined you with whips but I will discipline you with scorpions. So he likey the sound of uh of that more than the elders uh recommendation that >> I want to make it worse for these people rather than better. >> Yeah cuz >> though I got to say scorpions I' I'd probably take a scorpion over over a whip. whips seem like they do like way more damage to me. [laughter] >> Um because Yeah. He wants to flex on them. >> Yeah. >> And you know that's that's the the tendency >> to show off the girth of his little pinky. >> Yeah. [laughter] See that ring? That's like a that's like a 12. That's a 13. Um so Jeroboam and all the people came to Rayoboam the third day as the king had said, "Come to me again the third day." The king answered the people harshly. He disregarded the advice that the older men had given him and spoke to them according to the advice of the young men. My father made your yoke heavy, but I will add to your yoke. My father disciplined you with whips, but I will discipline you with scorpions. And basically, they tried to kill him. >> Yeah, it [clears throat] it does seem like when it when he came face to face with the people, he skipped the uh the little finger bit. [laughter] So, uh you know, it sounds like he improvised a little bit in the moment. Yeah. So the >> we're out on that one. [laughter] >> He was like, "Ah, I I don't want to try that one out with this crowd." So, but he goes back to Jerusalem. He sends Adorum, who is the taskmaster over the forced labor and uh he sent him up to Israel to basically um say, "All right, come on, let's go." And they stoned him to death. >> And so, yeah, King Rayoboam then hurriedly mounted his chariot to flee to Jerusalem. Mhm. >> So, Israel has been in rebellion against the house of David to this day. So, it's it's the explanation for how uh the two kingdoms that were always separate kingdoms came to be separate. So it's it's kind of an ASAPs fable for um >> for a people who kind of um came up with this >> uh this origin story that we were once a united kingdom and we got separated >> and that is probably fiction. Um and it's being told from a southern perspective because after the destruction of the northern kingdom, the southern kingdom kind of appropriated all their traditions and was like we're Israel now, >> right? And uh >> and we're and we've got the lineage of David. >> Yeah. And the idea is, oh, we were always Israel. The northern kingdom just rebelled against us and that's why um that's why they uh got destroyed in 7:22 B.CE. >> Is there any uh archaeological evidence that Rayoboam and and Solomon were Solomon a real person? >> The scholars are a bit divided on that. I think there are there are those who would argue that David was uh probably a real leader of a dynasty. We do have uh the Tell Dan inscription. >> I remember you talking about that >> or the Teldan Steelely uh no relation to Steelely Dan but um that h that talks about how uh the Haziel the Araan killed the somebody who would have been the part of the house of David. So that would have been a dynasty, not a kingdom, just a dynasty that that uh occupied Jerusalem. And so it's it's certainly plausible that there was a historical Solomon uh relationship to David unclear uh because they you know it tries to make David out to be Saul's, you know, right-hand man initially, right? Um, and uh, Saul then is trying to kill David. And David is a, you know, a mercenary for the for the Phoenetians. Um, not not Phoenicians. Oh my gosh. Did I say Phoenicians? I'm having the worst time with with uh [laughter] names. Oh my gosh. Um, who are the the sea peoples? >> Oh my gosh. I can't help you. Sorry. [laughter] >> You I mean, we've told that story. Go back go back and look in our back catalog. You'll get that story. Yeah, you'll get that story. So, um, so anyway, the a lot of these stories seem to be coming from centuries later where people are just kind of dressing it up to serve their their memory of this golden age. And and so there's a lot of a lot of propaganda, a lot of fiction. >> So, it's pos it's certainly possible. Rayoboam, Jeroboam more likely probably, I think, than than Solomon to be to be historical. >> Oh, really? Okay. >> Yeah. Yeah, I think so. But it's really about a hundred years after that that we get into a period where we can begin to archaeologically confirm >> uh these kings. So the Omride dynasty is uh is where things really take off and uh and some scholar and and that was probably the most successful ruler ruling dynasty in Israel. Uh, and a and some scholars think that it is the memory of the Omrides that has been shifted to David to make it seem like David was really the one who expanded Israel the most cuz we want the glory down in the south, down in Jerusalem rather than in Sheckchham in the north. >> Okay, interesting. Well, there you go. Uh, Sheckchham if you got them and uh [laughter] we'll we'll uh close it out there. If you would like to help us make this show go, please consider becoming one of our patrons over on patreon.com/data [music] overdogma. You can just search it if you want to uh you know be a become a monthly subscriber and you could get access to an early and adree version of every show as well as access to our afterparty which is a weekly we just do it every week. Uh it's bonus material. It's it's Dan and Dan at their best. A lot of the guests come in and say cool stuff. So, uh you you you don't want to miss out on that. You you want to be a part of it. So, >> head on over there to Patreon and uh and become a patron if you can. Uh if otherwise, you can always leave us five stars anywhere that five stars are available to you. And you can, you know, share us with your friends. That's always very helpful and uh and we really appreciate it. Thanks so much to Roger Gaudy for editing the show and thanks to you for tuning in. We'll see you again next week. >> Bye everybody. [music] >> Data Overdogma is a member of the Airwave Media Network. It is a production of Data Overdogma Media LLC. Copyright 2025. All rights reserved. What's something you learned in history class that you feel like wasn't the whole truth? Better yet, what's something you didn't learn at all that was omitted completely? That's what I like to call redacted history. My name is Andre White, the host of the Redacted History Podcast. The place where history's forgotten events, heroes, and villains get their story told one episode at a time. The Redacted History Podcast. Real history never dies. Stream the Redacted History podcast on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever else you get your, Polygamy!, YouTube, 01kbd3tg3a1fwbz2nb84p045cr.