Responding to Bethel's Repentance  Uh, John Mark Baker here and I am joined with my friend and co-host here, David Fish. Um, man, we are responding to Bethl's live stream where they have um finally responded to Mike Winger's Mike Winger's uh video and really our our video as well, sort of by proxy that we released a year ago. And it is um it this was a a good statement um in a whole lot of ways. And I want to share several of the just my initial reactions. Um you know, you'll have to give David and I some some slack. uh we we felt like it was apppropo to give an off-the cuff kind of emotional reaction as we were sort of processing some of these things. But um I I I want to just acknowledge first of all like this was a there was a whole lot of good in the statement that they said. So David, what were some of your kind of initial thoughts? Um, well, again, I I think part of the why it's so important for us to emotionally process this with people is because of the um emotional whiplash that everybody's feeling incudedly Chris and Bill. You know, >> this is the exact opposite message of what Chris gave Sunday evening, right? So, >> we're all dealing with this whiplash of we heard this this horrific thing on Sunday evening, you know, truly. I mean, it was truly, and again, Chris now seems to recognize it was horrific. But, so to go from that to this, I think probably if you're watching this, you're in a similar place of like this is a roller coaster, man. This is this is a lot. And so I think um contrasting this morning with last Sunday evening is one of the better ways to kind of figure out what went right here, which was um you know, Sunday evening we saw how Chris um basically took an hour without almost acknowledging victims at all. Um everything was centered around the perpetrator. Everything was centered around the abuser. Everything was centered around >> himself >> and himself. He was the He was the real victim on on on Sunday Sunday night's message. >> Yeah. And even sharing his own Yeah. Even sharing his own story of trauma in such a way that it made it seem like he, you know, he was really the one that was had been traumatized, you know, in the past. And you were saying something. Sorry. >> No, no, no. I I I I think that that was um I think that that that's right. I I think that that's right. There was um there was a lot to criticize in his message. Um some of it he acknowledged he he really acknowledged in in this in this repentance uh you know um that that they had um and for those of you who who maybe are just tuning in or don't know uh yes Bethl um they they released a a statement and it it was heartfelt. It was it was their service this morning that they processed um all these things repenting for their their um their lack of their their lack of accountability. um the fact that they thought that there was no responsibility for them uh to have done anything to to punish or or to bring discipline or to warn the body regarding Shawn BS when they knew um all the things that we have in on multiple occasions on this channel called them out for um Sean uh uh Chris his his original statement last week on Sunday night about about uh Shawn Bulls was terrible. It was terrible. >> Um uh this was good. This was good. And I think if we're going to call balls and strikes, we we got to acknowledge when they say when they say what's good. >> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And and and and just developing what I had what I had started saying, you know, I think the contrast of Chris centering himself, centering the abuser on Sunday. Um, you and I both agreed. Um, and again, we'll get to it's one, of course, there's never a perfect statement. This was not a perfect statement. There was issues with it. There's issues with everything. There's still significant issues with battle, but um, but the victims were centered. >> The victims were at the very center of what was said this morning. Um, I don't think I caught >> almost any attempts to justify. um there was some kind of explaining of where they were and that's helpful. I mean that that gives context but um you know they they were clear that it doesn't exonerate them um and they were clear that they still bear responsibility um as leaders but the the number one thing that I appreciated which honestly some other churches should really study from this is um to make it about the people who are actually affected and it was such a 180 from from the way that that did not happen on on Sunday night. >> Yeah. I Chris his his statement about Monday morning, you know, he wakes up, he he says he has an encounter with the Lord. I don't know what that entails. I don't know anything about that. Um I'll take his word for it, but um all I know is what what he said about himself. He said, "I saw in me a man I did not like Monday morning." And um that was that was really good. um you know, elephant in the room. There is still Bob Hartley. Uh there's there's still um there's still Todd Bentley and others that they haven't made statements about. Um for me though, I'm like that they said in the very beginning of the statement, this is not a oneandone. This isn't the only time we're going to be addressing this. They acknowledged at the beginning and at the end that there's going to be a a a series of like trying to trying to uh process these things, you know, uh you know, see in the in the chat somebody's like uh the gold dust and and the goose feathers. And listen, I you know, I I'm not here to uh um I'm not here to opine on what's true and what isn't regarding all of those things. All I'm saying is this statement, this statement here, there was some good things. There was some really good things that I think will bring a lot of healing to some people. And um I you already mentioned David, the centering of the victims. um that that really that really shines through. Um in Bill's statement, he Bill acknowledged um he had been told about the accusations several months before he went on TBN and endorsed the character of Shawn BS as well as the book. And you know, you and I were sort of going back and forth about that, like what do we think about that? And um man, I don't know. >> Yeah. And I I still, you know, again, as we're processing this, this is not I if we do have any potential critiques, we're processing them out in real time, so they haven't been developed into like hardened stances against or or pro Bethl. Um and and I appreciate it that especially Dan Fairley was like, >> "We realize that you shouldn't just take this and buy it. Like we we can't expect that of you." And so, you know, I texted uh John Mark in our like live chat as this was happening. I said, I still, you know, I look, you and I both have shared Bill was one of our major heroes. And um you know, I've shifted theologically. You've shifted theologically. You know, we've expressed our journey. Um we wouldn't uh we're still not going to go next month and sign up for, you know, BSSM or something. But I still there was this deep um sense in me as Bill was talking about the TBN issue. Um Bill, you didn't just go on with Shawn on TBN. You talked about his life being like the greatest life that backs up his message. >> And I I just am processing with all of you as right now like how can we make sense of that even with repentance? Like I don't understand how what what the inner state of Bill was like in that moment that would cause him to lie because he's at that point he's lying on TBN. I mean and that's what he's admitting today. He's admitting that he lied about Shawn. He lied about his character to a TV audience. The life that that backs it up. And we saw in Bethl's statement last year that um you know according to Bethl themselves, Chris and Danny went down at Bill's request. Bill is the one telling them, "You guys go and investigate this and and figure out what's going on." And so, while I appreciate really sincerely that Bill um he owned this, I still don't know where that leaves me just emotionally um in terms of what I think about Bill as a leader and you know, all of that. >> Yeah. And and that gets to the distinction between trust and forgiveness, you know, like >> for me this their statement did a lot for for just for me like dealing with all of this um anger and uh senses of betrayal. And I don't think that that's too overstated to be honest with you. like um you and I growing up in this movement where Bill is our hero and this guy is he is like he's the guy that you want to be when you grow up a and then to see the level of the level of uh I don't know um really just just betrayal uh there was was a deep wound in me I think and um and and there's others but you know and you think like oh you know you're a grown man and [laughter] some some some leaders failing is going to affect you that deeply but I think you have to understand what this movement is because this goes to the core of who you are in your walk with the Lord when like I mean imagine imagine growing up and and discovering you the the religion or all of the things that you thought about the way the world worked and who God was and all of this stuff was like untrustworthy at best. Um built on a shaky foundation, you know, at at best. You're going to be like, "Holy smokes, this is something that is really important." And if this is false, this is this is a huge betrayal. It's a huge betrayal. Even though I've never met the guy. Oh, sorry. Hold on one second. I got uh This is This is what happens before uh when you're doing a live stream off the cuff, you know. Um even though I never met the guy, I um he was an important figure to me and um it's like it's like discovering if if uh Michael Jackson couldn't even sing. You know what I mean? [laughter] It's like that kind of It's worse than that, I guess. But, you know, it's it's just it was a big it it was a big betrayal. But this this statement at least he he acknowledged the level of betrayal that was had. He acknowledged the fact that it wasn't just um we we who were observing who were betrayed. It was it was the victims of Shawn BS that were set to the side for the pro purpose of of centering Bethl. Like um those are those are huge failures but there was zero self-defense. I saw I saw zero self-defense and that was really really good. >> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And again, I think, you know, um, a lot of people in the chat and, you know, it's >> it this does not think what they're going to say. >> This does not mean this does not mean uh that Bill and Chris are qualified as leaders and we're not going to we're not going to make like a deacto statement, you know, in this episode like we have now judged everything that we need, you know, all that kind of stuff. I think um what you're going to hear more from us, you know, in the coming days is um there is a fundamental ecclesiological issue. There's a fundamental theological issue underneath some of this um that still has to be fixed. And I don't know if they're going to be willing to do that. It would require a serious walking back of books that have been written, right? Like and so that's I think if this repentance is genuine what we're going to see is Chris Danny uh other people coming out and saying I realize now that what I wrote in this book that what I said here that these five messages that I preached etc also contributed to this um there is a a whole other stream that's not just the structural what they addressed today was like the structural and procedural issues like our the way we structure our church the way our procedures our safeguarding All of that is super duper important. Um, but there's also this issue of why did no one think that they had authority over Shawn? Um, that goes to what John Mark and I have talked about a million times, which I think we'll talk about more in the future. Um, which is this idea of, you know, n ecclesiology and apostles and prophets. Um what I think I'm seeing is the beginning stages hopefully of them realizing that um much of what they've even taught about this didn't actually flesh itself out in real life. Um and I I hope that that opens their eyes to say um we need to rethink uh if we're going to talk about apostolic prophetic whatever ministry um we need to recover u and again some of you are going to be like that's it's just absurd to even use those words. I get it. But if they're going to use those words and if you're going to try to be consistent about these gifts and functions being available today, um I would hope that they get away from this idea of offices, this idea of governing authority and move towards what what I heard what I heard today. >> Imagine if you we had seen that for 20 years because that was an that was an acknowledgement that even though Bill is quote unquote an apostle, I wouldn't use that term. Even though Bill is quote unquote a prophet, I personally wouldn't use that term. Um, they were required this morning to show the heart of a shepherd. And John Mark and I have talked about this over and over again. Um, one of the biggest errors of kind of the five-fold, which Danny articulates some in his book, Culture of Honor, was the idea that certain offices are kind of exempt from having a shepherd's heart, that they're exempt from loving and caring for the people. And I share this with John Mark all the time. You know, Paul when he writes to the church of Philippi, here's an apostle, right? He writes to them and he says, "I have you in my heart." And I grew up hearing that apostolic people and prophetic people are often rude, uh, inconsiderate. Um, and I saw that modeled people that they would come into our church and they would be rude and they would be inconsiderate. Uh, one guy, James Maloney, who called himself an apostle, he came through our church one time and publicly rebuked the leadership of our church because there wasn't enough people at the meeting. Um, and he said, "When an apostle when an apostle comes to your church, the people are to show up." And [laughter] luckily that was not justified. But what I would see so many times is behind the scenes, well, that's just an apostolic, you know, they have they have an edge, right? In other words, they don't love people. >> And a lack of love and a lack of care and a lack of shephering was justified in the name of five-fold gifting. And I hope we're at the beginning stages of that whole thing being thrown out. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I hope so, too. [sighs] You know, people in that chat are pointing out and and rightly, this is not the only issue at Bethl. >> Yes. >> And that's that's 100% uh granted. It's this is not the only issue at Bethl. There was there was Bob Hartley, there was Todd Bentley, there was um Ben Armstrong. There's >> Ben Yes, there's a lot there's a lot there. Um one of the things that I've noticed I'm I'm reading Danny Silk's book Unpunishable right now. One of the things that my biggest gripe there's a lot in the book that I think is great actually. There's some good stuff in there. Uh but um one of the things is the very first chapter centers the story of Ben Armstrong and what's lacking in that story is that um it was like hey look at this story of redemption and restoration. The victim of the the grooming and the uh essay is is just forgotten about. There's two sentences about her in the first chapter. And that's an issue. If they mean what they say or what they said today, if they meant it, that ethos is going to change and that's going to be good whether or not you are like, "Well, Beth's a a false church." And you know, some of you are are are very much in that camp. Bethl's a false church. Some of you are uh you know, like charismatic and figuring stuff out. >> Yeah. Yeah, >> regardless, regardless, >> there's an influential church that right now is is beginning to prioritize hopefully >> the prioritization of victims safety first. >> And by the way, it's it's important to recognize also, sorry, sorry for interrupting you, John Mark. It's important to recognize also >> some of the victims have chosen to stay in this movement. And you can disagree with the victims making the choice to stay. um you know, some of the uh the the victims are still in the broader Bethl orbit. And so even if Bethl in your mind is is not a true church and and I John Mark and I don't even fully agree on on this. I I I'm I'm maybe a little more intense sometimes than John Mark. I have a very like black and white mind and um so I'm learning to shepherd better and love people better from John Mark. But um but the point is um safety for victims is good no matter what. Um, if the Mormon church comes out tomorrow and creates greater safety for victims, that's great. Uh, the Mormon church is a false religion. Um, but at least God in his, you know, this is what the reformers called common grace, right? Which is like God makes it rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. And we can celebrate when God in his mercy um allows greater safety um and greater correction and accountability to come even in places um that don't deserve it, right? even in places that have done a lot, you know, and and yes, we are waiting on some significant answers about why this was a pattern. What was not acknowledged today, as somebody pointed out in the chat, is this was a pattern. And I would like to hear that word in the future. Um, you know, Sean is not the only issue. We've done this before, and there could be some people that we actually need to be drafting a statement right now. That's just the truth. Rick Joiner, you know, I would appeal to to Bill, to Chris, if you mean this, put on paper right now, Rick Joiner is not safe. We do not endorse him. Um, he is currently trying to replplatform Todd Bentley. Um, and like I I want to see this in action as quickly as humanly possible as we begin to verify if this repentance, you know, is legit. Are there are there other Sea? Um are there other people that you've platformed that even if they're not in ministry right now, they have received prophecies that could be incredibly damaging to to their to their life that you knew they were faking? I um you know Chris said uh um uh Chris Chris said that as much in in uh the Instagram exchange with Spencer Dalton that there were three others that they caught and they pulled out of ministry. That's great. Pulled them out of ministry. Do the people who received the prophecies know that you know that those were false prophecies? I don't know the answer to that. Maybe they have gone to every single person who received a prophetic word from from this person and told them. Um I I just don't know and I I kind of doubt it. Um >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But are there are there more Sean BS? Are there are there other messes like this that still need to be cleaned up? And that's that's going to be that's going to be something to to think through to talk through. >> Yeah. Yeah. And and that's uh let's let's you know John Mark and I at at at the core we just want to think biblically about this like you know we want to go to scripture and you know think about John the Baptist's rebuke. Um when John the Baptist is out preaching repentance um he doesn't preach repentance as we often do which is this blanket 30,000 foot um if there's something bad in your life change it. He looks at specific groups of people and he says, "Here's how we'll know if you've repented." So he tells the soldiers like, "Don't shake people down." Like if you shake pe if you keep shaking people down and abusing your authority, we'll know you have not repented, you know. And of course, he says that that famous phrase um which either Dan or Chris used this morning, which was bear fruit in keeping with repentance. And so that fruit will will look um very substantial in the days to come if it's genuine. And so I just think like you said forgiveness, trust and also qualifications for leadership. So >> we have to ask the question >> that's great, >> right? So good reputation with outsiders is a qualification for an elder. >> Um I I believe this has significantly harmed Chris and Bill's reputation with outsiders. um particularly and and by outsiders it doesn't just mean you know non-believers I I think it I think it can mean just outside of your local church like what is your reputation beyond the people who think that they are putting you in leadership and so I would even say people who have lost faith um you know BS former BSSM students who don't consider themselves even Christians anymore I think that Bill and Chris's reputation has really taken a hit with outsiders and so it's up to them um to determine them meaning the broader leadership at Bethl to determine you know the qualifications for an elder have to be met. And there are certain types of confessions that demonstrate a fundamental disqualification uh from from leadership and that's that's just the way it is. We talked before, you know, if a elementary school teacher admitted to the same issues that were admitted to today, they would be fired. Um, now it's a diff, you know, it's a different job, but James 3, we're we're held to a stricter judgment. So, it this is a serious thing, and I don't have an answer. I'm not giving I'm not taking my gavvel in saying that I have the >> the judgment, but I it has these questions have to be asked. >> Yeah. That I and they're totally legitimate questions. I I think necessary questions. You know, I still fundamentally reject Bethl's ecclesiology. I I um there's a there's a whole lot there that um is is is troubling. I think that they're far too uh merciful towards false teachers and false prophets. Um I uh somebody's asking what do I mean by SA? Uh there's a reason I don't want to say it on YouTube cuz it uh it it'll ding you, but it's not spiritual. Uh it's it's another word. So um >> right, >> the the um [snorts] the the reality is like uh there there's trust that that will there's a trust factor here. But I think I think that this is this is true of of Christian brothers. I still I believe that Bethl um are the most of the people the leaders of Bethl are Christian brothers. Um I believe that they they hold to an orthodox view of of the gospel and the scriptures. I I believe that they're Christian brothers. And when Christian brothers repent, um it is incumbent when anybody repents truly, it is incumbent upon a Christian to from their heart, uh forgive. That doesn't mean trust. That doesn't mean you have the same level of access to my life or to my beliefs or or the same level of authority over me that you previously had or anything like that. It just means that from my heart, I'm not going to hold on to >> um bitterness and anger. >> And when when a statement like this is made, >> for us to just to to tell the truth and be objective, we have to say what's good and not only call out what we disagree with or what's negative. >> Yes. And uh otherwise we have a one-way track where you can only give criticism and nobody can do good no matter what they do. We create this sort of um system where somebody's damned if they do and damned if they don't >> um with us. And like I think that that is something that we should be on guard against especially in the climate online today. >> It is easy to criticize. It is easy to look like a genius when when everybody's an idiot, you know, like, you know, uh it's it's easy to peer wise from the critic's chair. Um and the reality is there's there's still a lot to criticize, but I I think that um we should say there was zero self-defense here. There was a complete acknowledgement. um if uh there is a there was a real um centering of victims and that is the attitude that I hope the rest of the charismatic movement begins to >> begins to prioritize and begins to >> Yeah. And I I want to point out a couple things. one um if you want to understand how good this uh what was done this morning was and I say good I I mean relative to other responses in the charismatic movement. Okay, if you go back and survey the history of the IHOP KC response um to this day what happened this morning at Bethl has never happened. Um and that is why I can say without reservation whatsoever IHOP Casey should be shut down and should not exist. the organization should should not exist right now because there still is not has not been ownership. The victims have never been centered. And so I I I want to point out I think it was Sonia in the chat. She said something I think is absolutely spoton. Um she said a big test for me is will Bethl frontload anything? Will they be first off the bat to come out publicly withdrawing their endorsement of anyone before the external whistleblowers find out? Well, John Mark, maybe just share a little bit of what's going on in your heart because what's happening this morning only happened because Bethl was forced to respond. >> Yeah. >> Last year. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that that was one of the things I'm like, no matter what they say, uh, this statement could have been made a year ago. It could have been made when they knew it. >> There's nothing new. There's been nothing, no development has happened. >> Yes. Yes, except pressure. The only development has been pressure. >> Yes. But I mean, if you look at what Matthew 18 is, so Matthew 18 says, "If your brother sins, go to him, point out his faults, just the two of you. And if he repents, you've won your brother. If he does not uh then go uh take somebody else so that there may be two or three witnesses. And if he still does not listen, then bring him before the church. And if he still does not listen, then treat him as you would a tax collector or a um a you know a gentile. Now um the reality is what if he repents at stage three when you bring him before the church? You know the the implication is you extend you extend the forgiveness you would have extended at stage one. Yes, trust has been broken at a deeper level. That person is is really going to have a a difficult time earning that trust back. Absolutely. Um but but you don't treat them as a gentile or tax collector anyway. You know, when you bring them before the church and you say, "Hey, this is this is wrong." And they say, "You're right. I'm sorry. Please forgive me." You don't say, "Well, it too little too late. See you, buddy." and kick him out of the church, right? Um so, uh I that's that is the tension that I'm wrestling with. They should have made all of these statements sooner and they didn't. They had to be pressured into this and and they say as much. I mean, this Valin said as much, right? He said, "I can't believe somebody had to make a video so that a 70-year-old man could do the right thing." >> Right. And that >> Yeah. >> Yeah. that that uh that's my issue is I don't see a path back from from admitting something like that just person back to leadership. So here's what I want to say to all the people and I I understand in the chat who are who are rightfully just like done and I I totally understand >> bare minimum what happened today um will help restore Bill Johnson and Chris Valatin's soul before the Lord. Um, so at a minimum, like even if you >> think that they're not saved, I I I don't have any reason necessarily to believe that Bill Johnson has never known the Lord, um, this will help restore them to the Lord if they continue to pursue repentance. Um, again, I have big question marks. I I don't believe um probably at least for a season if I were them after making this kind of admit you know admitting this kind of thing and bringing this before the church I would want a break frankly because what you also heard from them >> is um and I didn't hear it as a as an excuse necessarily but it was brought up multiple times like we were going through so many hard situations John Mark you and I can both seriously resonate with that like I've been through some terrible seasons um but man we can't we can't allow victimization to be happening when we're going through hard seizures. So the question then becomes like, hey, why is Bethl set up in such a way where when Bill or Chris are fighting for their lives, they can't just hand over what's going on. And so I think that is a serious criticism of Bethl is there is there is celebrity culture in Bethl because Bill and Chris have to be on the platform and they have to be communicating and that, you know, and yes, they've incorporated more people over the years, but the whole thing is built around them. And so I felt I felt in some ways bad for them because obviously they didn't feel like they could just stop and say my the situations going on in my personal life are jeopardizing my leadership. And we we don't get an out for that as pastors. That does not stop us from being disqualified. And so >> I think one of my most serious issues which I brought up to you John >> Mark >> and it's not a desire to pile on Chris but the utter lack of knowledge of the scriptures. And I think frankly Dan Fairley um for those of you who don't know Dan, he's not the guy in front of everybody, but Dan's I think the only one with a seminary degree um he has a master's degree in theology. And Dan generally is a lot more familiar with the scriptures than either Bill or or Chris. And I do think it's fair to ask um one of the qualifications for an elder is that you are able to teach. And I I'm saddened because what I didn't hear from Chris is why were you just why did you just start thinking about this last week? This is one of the most basic issues of what the church is. Church discipline. Uh Matthew 18, 1 Corinthians 5, 1 Timothy 5. Um why are none of these things a part of your thought as a pastor? Why have you never deeply considered these things? And I do think there's a culture at Bethl of picking out a verse. You know, I've heard a whole message from Chris on uh what is it? Proverbs 28:19 with where there's no vision, the people are without restraint. >> Yeah. >> Um I've heard a whole a whole message, maybe five messages from Chris on that one verse from Proverbs, but there are entire chapters 1 Timothy 5. And so it is fair. I'm not saying expositional preaching is the only way to go, but it is fair to say if you have no verse by verse, book by book preaching in your church, >> you're cooked. as the kids say, you're cooked. >> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Yes. Yes. I think you're you're closer to being a kid than me, actually. But uh [laughter] yeah, I I I agree. And I think that does that does go to the difference between, as I said earlier, the difference between um uh forgiveness and trust. At least for me, [sighs] you know, there there's still so many issues. there's still so many issues. Um, I look forward to seeing some forward movement if they really meant what they said on some of this stuff. I look forward to seeing um some uh some positive um proactive action when it comes to exposing false prophets um uh predators uh you know like taking these things seriously centering victims creating a safe environment um they said that they had a few uh a few things going forward I I can't comment at this stage of what I think about their safeguards that they're putting in. Some people will immediately say, "Well, that's not enough." And and I'm not an expert on on any of those things either. So, um I'd have to think about that more deeply. I'll just say this. Um I we'll see. We'll see. Yeah. Yeah. And I I think I've already seen some a couple YouTube channels. I don't even know if if I remember their names, but um one of the guys who is a former BETHL student um you know mentioned us, mentioned minor profits the other day and you know his solution, Justin Peter's solution is um yeah, you have to be a cessationist. And if you if you aren't a cessationist, this is what will happen. And um we're we're just, you know, we're never going to believe that because I can't I can't find it from scripture. >> And so I can't say that. Yeah. And by the way, they're like, "We need to get back to the foundation where, you know, all the gifts of the spirit ceased." You know, which of course anybody who knows church history knows it's it's a view from the 1600s. You know, this is never a consistent view. You know, St. Augustine kind of has like a pseudo cessationism for a while in the, you know, fourth and fifth centuries >> and he recantss >> and he recantss because he sees things that he just cannot deny. And so throughout church history, this strain of the miraculous, in fact, one of the big issues with people who are saying like, "We need to get back to the basics," which is that there's no more miracles. Well, our Roman Catholic friends would say, "Yeah, no, you're wrong. come home to Rome because we have eucharistic miracles and we have like and so it's like the o there's only been a tiny sliver of time where people have decided that the solution is let's cut out everything from 1 Corinthians 14 and 1 Corinthians 12 and that will fix all of the issues and here's the problem had to deal with these issues in the first century >> right >> Paul is dealing with these issues in the first century when the miraculous gifts are present and his his answer to the Corinthians is not cut out all of the gifts like you don't really need them they're not essential and so I would just push back and I think you would too John Mark you know there's some serious issues with n ecclesiology with the theology that undergurs a lot of kind of hyper charismatic culture um but I do not think the answer is um to become sessationist >> yeah yep and uh I you know 1 Thessalonians 5 do not despise prophecy But test everything, hold on to what is good, reject every form of evil. Um, I've often pointed out there would not be an injunction not to despise prophecy if there were not sometimes a powerful temptation to do so. And uh, otherwise the command is superfluous. Um, >> yeah, >> you know, that's that's that's where we land um on on spiritual gifts. Yes, rejecting all forms of spiritual gifts is safer. Definitely. Um I just don't think it's a safety that the Bible affords us. Um I I think when it commands us earnestly desire spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy, it is offering us um a command to earnestly desire spiritual gifts especially that we may prophesy. And so that's um you know, you just have to you have to ask yourself I think that this is a charismatic versus there's the charismatic pragmatism which is like um we're going to go after whatever teaching gets us more power, you know, and that's obviously uh dumb, foolish, and wrong because it's a pragmatic approach to theology. >> But the inverse is true. Well, we're going to reject all the gifts because that's going to be safer. Well, also that is a pragmatic approach to theology and we have to let the Bible speak for it itself. So, >> yeah, that's right. And and I think here's another key here's a here's a day one >> a day one change that all charismatics can do. Um I I I think we have to distinguish between words of knowledge and prophetic words. And what's been happening in this Shawn Bull situation is they've been mixed. And I get it. They are both both forms of very lowercase tiny R revelation. You know, I I I honestly dislike even using that word because of the negative ramifications of the way it's used in a lot of these circles. Like these people have this ongoing revelation. Um and yet they don't know that first Corinthians 5 exists until recently. You know, things like that. Like but words of knowledge are information that are that is supernaturally given to someone about something or someone else. Pro uh prophecy is a whole lot deeper than that and may not involve any specific details about the person's life. You can give a prophetic word a prophecy that does not name any specific phone number or name or anything. And so here's the reason I am very upset with and I saw Jonathan Welton do this. Um I think it is very wrong of certain uh kind of hyper charismatic leaders who are flipping the responsibility onto people like Elijah Stevens or Jubilee Dawn and saying well you should have known how to test the prophecies. >> The it's not the prophecies were mostly vague. The issue was the words of knowledge. And the only way to test a word of knowledge is to investigate it. The only way that these people would have been able to test this. Yeah, I get if you want to be hyper spiritual, you can say, "Well, God should have given them a that just clearly is not the way God always operates in terms of of a word of knowledge that has been data mined." Um, and if you think that's the way discernment is, I just think that's kind of naive. I I I don't think that's the way it works. And so, I think with words of knowledge, sadly, I mean, I guess people are just going to have to check almost every time. like if somebody comes up and gives extremely specific words, we've seen it from Chris Reed at IHOP KC. Uh we've seen it here. Um we we saw it with Paul Kaine. And so, you know what? Um there's going to have to be a greater level. And now, you know what? There's so much information. There's so many patterns. It might it might be a lot harder to find out now than it was um a while back. I would also point people go back if it's still available, go back and read Shawn Boltz's uh statement of prophetic accountability that he released in light of the pressure of all of this last year. And you will hear Shawn actually explain to you how prophecy and words of knowledge should be done. And he says, "Well, there was a suspicion surrounding words of knowledge, so I stopped doing them." And it's just so transparent that >> that that was false. And so I think I would just push back if you believe that Elijah Stevens and Jubilee Dawn should have known that Shawn was data mining. Um I would ask, you know, someone like Ben Fitzgerald, you know, Ben uh and I don't know much about Ben, John Mark, you probably know more, but um Ben posted about this um >> many years ago. I mean many like I don't know if it was 2020 or and he posted on Instagram there's a major prophet in the body of Christ who's been deriving his prophecies from social media. Um he deleted it and he was I believe I can't prove this but they said leaders from Europe. I'm pretty confident that Ben was one of those leaders um from Europe. And the second we know that let's say there's even just a suspicion um the people should be notified. People should be told uh there should be an email sent. There should be immediate communication even if it hasn't been proven yet. I I I believe this even if it hasn't been proven yet so that those people can look into it themselves. Hey, we saw this. >> We don't even have a smoking gun necessarily on this, but there's a correlation and you need to know and if you everything he said was on social media, you should probably be very cautious. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I I think that that's uh that that's exactly right. And yeah, so so the people who are in the uh charismatic camp that are like, "Well, you gotta you got to test the word." I'm like, "Come on, man." Like the guy called her out by name, Jubilee, right? Called her out by name, said where she worked, and then he just gives what seems to be an innocuous direction. God's given you this girl, man. Well, you know, that that that was devastating. um with with Elijah Stevens, you know, he was he was faking all these words of knowledge and then just the subtle direction to be like, "Hey, you should uh you should make this movie caused Elijah to take his life savings." Why? Because God knew his name. He knew everything that was going on. Like this is what he's Elijah's thinking at the time, right? It's like um all of these amazing specific details that if they were really from God could mean no other thing except for I have to go all in on this. >> Yeah. >> And so to to just be like, well, you know, that was your fault and you should you should have judged the word is just crazy. That's just crazy. >> But um but leadership also plays a a role in this. Um I I think that prophecies are tested inside of community. That is the context of 1 Corinthians chapter 14. Two or three prophets are to speak. The rest are to weigh carefully what is being said. So the community together is discerning what God is saying. It is incumbent upon leaders, especially if they know this guy is sus, to to say something and to help people uh to help people weigh these things out. Bethl in their statement acknowledged that. I I I think they they very clearly acknowledged the primary failure that we pointed to in our video last year that they had a duty to warn because of their platform, because of their influence, and because of their relationship to Shawn, the fact that that they endorsed him to the world, and he betrayed that trust. When they found out that he was untrustworthy, they should have said so. Chris acknowledged that and I really appreciate that. I I really appreciate all of the acknowledgements. I really appreciate the lack of self-defense that that showed up here. You know, I I get that people are like, "Hey, too little too late." You know, I'm I'm not an apologist for Bethl by any means here. >> Just follow the videos I've made. But >> yeah, and I I would still I would still not feel comfortable on a million other reasons. I I just want to make it clear. I would still not feel comfortable >> sending someone to Bethl or or encouraging someone to stay. Um and so I I want to make that clear. And that doesn't mean that John Mark agrees with me. Again, that's the beautiful thing. It's like we we have all sorts of different responses and different um kind of theological nuances of how we're going to work all this out. But here's my number one takeaway. And I know this sounds so oversimplistic, but it really isn't. We have to know the scriptures, man. Like we need to bring back a process of ordination that requires a very clear demonstration before someone is ordained to ministry that you have the capacity to take a passage of scripture. Let's say like five verses, six verses and seriously bring out the context and seriously understand, right? That you have a serious grasp. And so one of the things that Chris has done frequently is kind of admitted like you know he admitted on the last Sunday night like yeah you know 20 years ago um I got up on platform and I started talking for 20 minutes and then realized none nothing none of what I was saying was in scripture you know >> yeah immediately if that were to happen and you were Bill Johnson you go you're off the teaching team for a year um you're >> you have to go to seminary you have to take a one year I don't you know >> go go >> a couple hermeneutics something but you're you're immediately disqualified if you get up from a platform in front of hundreds of people, talk for 20 minutes and realize. >> Yeah. [laughter] Able to teach >> in the moment. >> That's the number. That's the first one. Able to teach. >> Yeah. Titus one, uh, you know, you know, sound doctrine and you're able to refute those who oppose it. And just remember what John Mark and I have said before. We said this in our Chayon video. The consequences of NR ecclesiology is a minimization of elders and therefore implicitly a minimization of the qualifications for elders. So there's this weird gray area where apostles and prophets will say like, well, I'm not an elder in the church. They they view themselves as in another category. >> And so therefore, they're like, well, I'm a prophet, not a teacher. And again, if you if you take all of that and throw it in the garbage and you focus on the qualifications for an elder, >> then no one is exempt who stands up in front of the people of God, >> right? In Peter 5, Peter identifies himself as an elder, >> right? So, yeah, a fellow elder. >> Obvious obviously he's an apostle, but he identifies himself as an elder. >> Yeah. And and that's the thing is is anyone who stands upon a platform and teaches the word of God to God's people is an elder or should be an elder um in the body of Christ and therefore they are subject to all of the qualifications of an elder and there are no exceptions. And so I think the other thing John Mark which you've talked about and you might want to share more about this is the other takeaway is just >> this parurch model. Yeah. This whole thing of you'll notice and they admitted I again >> props to Chris for admitting >> I delegated my spiritual authority. >> Um I delegated Bethl's spiritual authority. And I mean as an elder in the body of Christ, not apostolic authority. That's a separate issue. I delegated my my authority as an elder in the body of Christ to a group of uh random business people who were best friends with Shawn who appear on a form 9990 who regularly conduct their board meetings in Las Vegas over Crips. >> Um so that's not perhaps sorry I don't I >> Crips is something else over there in California. >> I just [laughter] self-owned myself as not being a gambler and I'm tremendously happy about that. Yeah, I I I have I do not know gambling terms. So, >> yeah. Yeah. I don't think anybody gives a crap. So, [laughter] >> but talk talk though, John Mark, about what you've told me about about parurch. >> Yeah. So, um I I heard this uh I can't remember uh which guest it was on Remnant Radio, but he was the guy who was talking about a Pentecostal view. >> I think it was communion. >> I think it was Chris Green. He he said in an offhand comment uh I believe that God is delivering the church from parurch ministries. And I think he's exactly right. I think he's exactly right. I think that there are parurch ministries that not all parurch ministries are bad. Um but here is the danger of parurch ministries is that they rob the church of her duty to do things like preach the gospel. um you know, if you have a prayer um parurch ministry, you know what that does? Well, the local church doesn't have to pray. Uh you know, we're not going to have prayer meetings because the parurch ministry over there, they've got these these these uh you know, church meetings um like it it offloads responsibility that should be um sort of quality controlled by church eldership um and then done actually done by the local church. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Go ahead. >> Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you, John. I was just going to say even if it's even if it's not as good. And what I mean by that is like one of the reasons we outsource stuff as local church leaders to parurch is because it seems like they're doing they have more margin for it. They specialize in this. They've they have this gift and if we do it, it's not going to be as as sharp. And I think that is a total misunderstanding of disciplehip. it. Um, the most important thing is for the people that you shepherd to see you shephering them in all of the biblical ways that are required of of elders. And so whatever it is that people need spiritual care, right? Um, for Chris and Bill, they are guilty of outsourcing spiritual care. Um, even to people who are quote unquote below them in the organization. Um, Acts chapter 20, it like there needs to be a sermon series at Bethl just from Acts chapter 20. You know, the Apostle Paul talking to the elders at Ephesus and he talks specifically about wolves coming in. He says, "This is your responsibility. I commend this to you as elders in and overseers uh of of the flock uh who have been bought with uh the price of the blood of God. You know, like this is >> this is such a significant thing to Paul. He's like, I am washing my hands of your basically he's saying I'm washing my hands of your people. Like I this is now on you. You must stop wolves from coming in. You must teach people the truth. You must care for your people. So there's not a single leader in the body of Christ who is exempt from actively caring for people. And I do think one of the big things that Chris said last week that he's clearly reflecting more on is um there is a point in which the size of a church becomes extremely restrictive. Um especially if it's not done really really really really well. Um it does become restrictive because you can do what Chris did last week very easily and just say there's just too many people. I can't I can't be expected to know that person, to talk to that person, to shepherd that person, etc., etc., etc. Um, and and I think that's a serious serious issue, by the way, not only with Bethl, that's a wider evangelical issue. Um, and it's important to note that that's not exclusive to just, oh, Bethl's too big. It's it's a serious malaise within the broader kind of evangelical church. >> It's the megaurch model. Yeah, it's the mega church model and which is a whole that's a whole other ball of wax, you [laughter] know. So, um some something to be looked at uh maybe on another um episode. Man, I am um my closing thoughts and just know still processing, but I thought it would be apppropo just to share sort of mine and David's initial reactions to this cuz um there there's just a lot to process. There's a lot to process. Um I'm my I am at least hopeful after this. I'm hopeful that Bethl is moving in a better direction uh for the people that are there. Um I know that some people, you know, uh watching this are like, "Yeah, who cares? They're all going to burn or whatever." You know, just burn the whole thing down anyway. There I I I understand that perspective. I do. But um uh I think anytime somebody does well, they uh if you're going to be objective, you should say so. And uh I think Bethl did well. I I uh it is a different tone from last week. It is definitely a different tone from a year ago. And uh boy, I don't know. >> Yeah. So there there there's a lot there's a lot to be thought about, but those are initial thoughts and uh we'll see. We'll see. >> Yeah, absolutely. [laughter] >> I mean I if I do you want one more thought for me or do you want to close this out? >> If you have one more >> I'll give I'll give one I'll give one more thought. I I since John Mark said that part, I'm going to say the other part. the people who came out and defended Chris are going to have to take a very very very serious look at themselves and look at their lives because now they're in the uncomfortable position of realizing >> not even Chris agrees with Chris >> that not even that Chris said and you you sent me the quote was a powerful quote I looked uh what does he say what did he say I looked in the mirror and that's not what does he say the man I want to be >> I did not like the man I saw >> yeah I did not like the man I saw um there were some significant leaders who came out and said I want to defend defend Bethl and defend Chris, blah blah blah blah blah. So, I also think the reverse is true. Some people are going to have to take a very, very serious look at um and by the way, >> the people that did that proved Mike Winger's point immediately as if it needed more proof. >> Cover up culture. That's cover-up culture. In in this case, people were covering up for Chris Valatin and they were covering up for his um >> absolute false teaching from the platform. And it was that it was false teaching because it was directly contrary to the word of God. Um, and that that's extremely serious. And so I'm sitting a little bit more in the seriousness of trying to figure out the ramifications for what this means for for people who are either qualified or disqualified. Um, I actually have no authority in this matter. So I can truly say I don't have any authority over whether uh Bill or Chris are disqualified from uh from leadership. That actually is a matter. >> You you say that as though I do, >> right? No, nobody nobody ultimately does except for the local church as we've been as we've been saying and uh and whether or not Bethl is sustainable as a church long term. I have I have big questions about that. I have big questions about physics of heaven. I have big questions about Bob Hartley. I have big, you know, so just so you guys know, uh I I I have so many things that I feel like I need to see or I want I'll say different that I want to see. Um, but this is the only glimmer of hope I've seen in maybe the last five years um from Bethl where I I have seen something that could potentially um be a shift. And so if Bethl moves from 80% not recommendable to 50% uh and that means less victims and less people um spiritually deconstructing because of um wacky stuff and false words and all that kind of stuff that's positive and as you know John Mark myself we're going to continue addressing things that need to be addressed. So yeah, this isn't the end. It's kind of the beginning of I would say I would say it's the beginning of a new phase. >> Yeah. Yeah. And uh this is, you know, you got to take the dub when you when you can. And uh I guess that's that's sort of my my position. Take the win when you got it and extend as much mercy as you possibly can without losing your brain. Um that's sort of what I want to do. I want to extend as much mercy as I possibly can without losing my brain in the in the process. So, um you know, I I I'm grateful that Bill acknowledged his unsanctified mercy. Um I'm grateful that uh Chris acknowledged really they all acknowledged all many not all many of the the points of criticism that we've brought out on this channel. Um, have they addressed the prophetic yoga pants? >> No. [snorts] Uh, you know, like [laughter] there there's a lot there's a lot they haven't they haven't addressed. But maybe they will. And you know, maybe they will. Uh, I know some of you are like, "No, they won't. And I'm not even not even going to hold my breath." Maybe this is just my inner uh charismatic former N, you know, like hopeful romantic talking, you know. Um I just hope that they do. And um so I hope that they do because it will be good for the church. It will be good for the church. Even if you think Bethl is even if you're of the position Bethl is a false whatever, um if you just look at this objectively, it is good for the body of Christ. what they did today. Um, and it's a step in the right direction. So, that's my that's my thinking. Um, yeah. Uh, any final words there, David? >> No. Yeah. Um, nobody nobody should feel pressure to uh come up with a hardened stance. Uh, yeah. Nobody should be feel pressure to come up with a hardened stance. The bottom line is, as people rightfully pointed out, um, this was an apology. It was not repentance. Um, you know, and even though the title of this video is responding to Bethl's repentance, um, what we mean is responding to Bethl's saying that we repent. Um, and so we're going to see soon, um, if they bear fruit in keeping with, uh, repentance, if there's restitution to victims. And the biggest one that we have to keep an eye on, is there exposure of several other ministries in, I would say, the next couple of months, >> honestly, is what I'm looking for. in the next couple of months is their exposure. Um, do some of the younger leaders at BETHL say, "Hey, we bought your version of this a couple years ago. We don't buy it anymore. We need to know what happened uh here." And that also could lead to some leaders at Bethl being removed in the next couple of months. It should lead to some leaders at Bethl being removed in the coming weeks. And if that doesn't happen, >> we're not back to square one, but we're like walking back towards square one. Yeah. >> So, I want to see some very concrete things in the next couple of months. >> Mhm. Yeah. And I think when you're looking at when you're looking at stuff, would would I recommend Would I recommend Bethl? Still no. Um, but I'm grateful for I'm grateful for some of the things that they said today. And I hope that more more churches take to heart the ethos that was put forward. more churches take that to heart because um if more churches take to heart, I'm not going to defend myself. I'm going to completely own everything that I did. Um I'm I'm going to center the victims. I'm not going to make excuses. Um you know, like that's good. That's just good. Um even if you don't like Bethl, it's just good. So, um I'm going to say a win's a win. And uh you know uh I I might feel differently in a week. They did they also said this. They also said this and I know it sounds like you got to go soon, David. [laughter] Uh I I'll say this. Um they they acknowledged what we're doing here is not enough. Sunday morning is not enough. A statement is not enough. This is going to be ongoing for several months. Good. Good. So, I think all that we're were all positive things and uh I um you know I think it's very easy to find things that you don't like about it because there's things that are there and some of them are valid, but um I'm going to call out the good when I see it. So, those there was a lot of good there this morning. All right. Well, hey, uh, God bless you guys and, uh, thanks so much for for tuning in and, uh, you know, don't hope hate us too badly in the in the comments. You know, I get, uh, uh, I'm I'm just a softy. So, what can I say? I'm just a softy. I'm a little bit more of a softy than David is, but you you can you all of you uh, say only nice things about David. You can say things about me. So, all right. Hey, God bless you and uh we'll see you again in the next episode., Responding to Bethel's Repentance, Minor Prophets, 01khh7x7zafj4dsh9epkcpq7cg.