Shelby's Story / YWAM / Switzerland / Pt. 1  🔗 **Source:** [Shelby's Story / YWAM / Switzerland / Pt. 1](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IBvV_AjW-4) [00:00:00] Bodies Behind the Bus exists to create a space for survivors to tell their stories and to make sure those stories are heard. But we need your support to continue this work. Your donations help us produce this podcast, care for the people who trust us with the stories, and continue the work of Sacred Wilderness. Please consider making a onetime gift or becoming a monthly supporter at sacred wilderness.org. Your support makes this work possible. >> Today we have the honor of sharing Shel's story with you. She is the first storyteller in our series of stories coming out of YWAM. This is part one. So part two of her story is dropping tomorrow. Make sure you're subscribed so you don't miss it. We've been working on [00:00:42] this series for a while now and she'll be recorded about a year ago. So we reached out to her and asked her if there was anything she would like to say and she [music] wrote us this note. We're going to begin her story with that. Sharing my story with Bodies Behind the Bus a year ago was a major step towards healing for me. That was really the first time I was given the opportunity to use my voice to tell my own story without judgment and doubt and mumbling about unforgiveness to me after. [music] Listening back now, I can hear all that doubt and fear underlying the way I talked about my story a year ago. For years, I needed to show up as a certain kind of victim [music] in order to stay safe. I had to be emotionless, factual, calm, and self-deprecating. I certainly couldn't be angry or speak about the harm that has been caused by [00:01:25] the factual evidence. This left me with serious PTSD, incredible self-doubt, and anxiety. And that left me with 15,000 Franks and counting worth of therapy, years of medication, fear of leaving my house, and even suicidal ideiation. The gift of listening that Janna and Jay gave me in turn gave me a certain freedom to speak up and share about what happened to me and the impact my experience in WWAM has had on my life. Over the course of the last year, I have gained new language and confidence to talk about not only the facts of what happened to me, but also the impact that the system of YWAM had on myself and still has on so many others. As of this recording, there still has been no justice served, no care offered for the victims, and no public acknowledgement [00:02:09] from WWAM about the harm that has been done. As I work to have grace for the version of myself that recorded her story a year ago, still with so much detachment that at times I find myself wondering, was it really that bad? I hope that you, dear listener, will have the [music] courage to hear not only the recorded facts, but underneath them, the long-term impact WWAM has had, not only on my life, but on the lives of thousands of others. Thank you for daring to listen. I'm Janna Harris, and this is the Bodies Behind the Bus podcast. I am all about blessed subtraction. There there is a pile of dead bodies behind the Mars Hill bus. [00:02:53] And by God's grace, it'll be a mountain by the time we're done. You either get on the bus or you get run over by the bus. Those are the options. But the bus ain't going to stop. [music] You either get on the bus or you get run over by the bus. [music] Those are the options. But the bus ain't going to stop. All right, welcome back everybody. We have Shelby with us today and Shelby is going to be talking about her sharing her experience of nearly 20 years of a journey with YWAM through multiple countries and locations. So, welcome Shelby. [00:03:36] >> Thank you. It's great to be here. So, I I want to preface this by telling everyone that this is a journey and I I I think this is a a story that we need to just really let Shelby kind of steer and tell because it does span years, decades. So, Shelby, I first want to start with, you know, John and I are familiar with YWAM. We had Cat on a year or so ago and we got really into that YWAM world and super interesting lots to talk about. Your journey started here in the US. So why don't you talk to us about what drew you to YWAM? Why did you decide to partner with them and pursue ministry opportunities with them? [00:04:21] >> Yeah. Well, it was interesting because I actually had never wanted to be a missionary. I'm pretty sure a WWAM group came to speak at the school that I was in the Christian school I was doing. And I remember thinking, I never want to do that. That seems horrible. But I had really met God. I think when I was like 18, he genuinely showed up. Shortly after that, I felt what I would have said was a call to missions. And I didn't know what that was. So, I remember asking my pastor, "What does it mean to be a missionary? What what is this? What does that look like? I started to do some stuff sort of locally in my, you know, I had a job. I had a full-time job and then I would volunteer [00:05:04] in my local city. And after several years of that, I thought, okay, I think I want to try this foreign missions thing. What is this? So, I had planned a trip. I was 22. I had planned a trip with the help of a friend and I went around the world living with pastors and missionaries just to see what it was like. And through that I actually was visiting a friend in Hawaii and her flatmate was with WWAM there. They have a really big base there on the big island. So she was telling me all about WWAM and their university, this university of the nations and that you can get degrees. It was a degree granting institution and I thought, [00:05:47] well, that's sort of interesting. So, I just left it. I finished my trip. After that, I actually fell into some pretty deep depression cuz I didn't know about re-entry or cross-cultural stress or reverse cultural stress or things like that. But when I was 24, I sort of decided, okay, I think I want to pursue a counseling degree with the University of the Nations with WWAM cuz I thought, this is super cool. I get to travel the world. I don't have to take math. I just I hated the thought of having to take math and random things that didn't pertain to the degree that I wanted to pursue, which was counseling. I thought, you know, I really want to help [00:06:29] missionaries. That's what was driving me. The statistics of missionary attrition back in the, you know, late '9s that are still unfortunately the same today is 80% of missionaries that are leaving the field are leaving because of lack of member care. So a lack of you know just care in general if you will and I wanted to change that. I wanted to be part of changing that. You know 24 prefrontal cortex is not yet fully formed and I thought this is a super cool way to do university and then get to help and help the people that I wanted to help. So I I I looked up their information and I saw oh I have to do this DTS thing, this disciplehip training school. It's 6 months. I'm like, "That's fine. Who cares? I can do [00:07:14] that instead of all of the generals that you have to do, you know, and as for like an associates degree." I thought, "Oh, this is this is fine. Easy peasy." So, I signed up to the one that I found that was sort of closest to my home, which was in Colorado Springs. I remember even from the beginning, they contacted me after I had been accepted and they said, "Oh, we don't actually have a base. we are probably going to be putting you guys in apartments and we'll share at a church. And I remember thinking this is crazy this lack of organization and they don't even have a center. Nah, I I'm going to go somewhere else. But in the end, I don't know. I did I went there and started my DTS. It was 6 months of crazy. Just really [00:07:59] quickly, so there was an option to do a DTS and that would wipe out your need to do any general for your degree, >> right? So for my degree, the degree programs work that you have to do the DTS first and then everything, not everything after that. There's three courses that every degree student has to do as their generals. There's a communications course, there's a theology course, and there's a humanities and science course. So those were the generals after the DTS that you had to complete. But it didn't matter for most of the options what order you did them in. So DTS was always first and then you could take your humanities and [00:08:43] science straight away. You could wait several years. It didn't matter for that. There was a couple of courses that had to build on each other, but most of them don't. So that's like a sounds like a sweet deal. You're like six months and I knock out a bunch of stuff that's that will speed up my degree program. So you jump at that. You end up in Colorado Springs. What is it like when you start that DTS? What was the culture, the feel? Can you walk us through that a little bit? Was it what you thought it was going to be? >> Yeah, I was really excited because I thought, here is what I've been looking for. here are the people that are going to help me be trained to become a missionary and give me the skills that I need to help others. I was really [00:09:28] excited. I was a little bit older than most of the other people in my course. I think there was 11 of us. Um, so we were in apartments. We were meeting at was a big church. There was that big church in Colorado Springs that Ted Haggard was the pastor of at the time. Is it like New Life or something? I don't know. So we had our classes there and so in some senses so we were we were put in these apartments and there was I think three students in a two-bedroom apartment and one staff. So we all had to have staff. So I was 24 at this point. My roommate was like 18 though. So we were cooking for ourselves. We were grocery shopping for ourselves. So for me that felt [00:10:11] pretty normal. But you know there was this hope. There was so much hope and excitement about this is going to be so cool and we get to travel to foreign countries and we get to learn about God. And I really came with this sense of I want to be changed. I want to meet God. I want to see, you know, have people tell me all my blind spots. I just I was so eager and so open to just, okay, tell me what's wrong with me. Tell me what I need to change. tell me what God wants from me. You know, I really want to be open and learn. So, that was sort of the vibe. Everyone was really excited. You know, it was this was going to be a [00:10:54] great thing. When did that that part of that vibe or part of that culture you mentioned that there was a lot about sharing your testimony? Can you expand on what was involved in that? What that was like in YWHAM? >> Yeah. Straight away, [clears throat] they wanted us to share our testimonies. And originally, it was this idea that you're going to have to share your testimony on your DTS outreach on the second phase when you would go to another country as sort of a way to witness or proitize. And so, we were encouraged straight away to share our testimony including, you know, what did God sort of save you [00:11:37] from? what sorts of horrible things have you done in your past, you know, that God had changed? And it was it was like you need you need to you need to dig deep. You really got to get in there and get it out. So, we were just all meeting each other and sort of sharing, you know, how God changed and and there was definitely like a sort of not competition. if you had done like really like naughty things, you know, like you had slept around or you had done drugs or you had, you know, been addicted to pornography or something, then like your testimony was stronger. And I was just this poor little Christian girl that had grown up, you know, in Christian spaces and hadn't done any of those things. And [00:12:19] I remember really trying to dig deep to be like, what horrible thing could I say that I've done so that I can fit in and sort of be as lauded as the others. So it was a bit wild. But yeah, that was really really straight away. They wanted us to share that with each other. And I'll just say like the staff, so there's people that are sharing like difficult things, things that they have walked through in the past. And the staff, most of the staff are pretty young. They're younger than me. Even our school leader, I think, was maybe my age. My mentor, quote unquote, my one-on-one they're called, was a couple years younger than me. And nobody had any sort of training or expertise that they shared with us, [00:13:03] at least in order to sort of catch people as they share these really vulnerable things straight away. Well, also you're not none of you are professionals, so you're sharing intimate parts of your life that you don't really owe these people and there's tons of boundaries being crossed, I'm assuming. So, >> were you uncomfortable? Were people uncomfortable or would you say that it was just kind of a thing that you did and you just went along with it? >> I would say there was definitely a sense of we have to do this. this is what's expected of us and if we don't then we're sort of less Christian or less spiritual and so there was a lot of pressure of hey we're all in it together [00:13:47] we're all setting this 6 months apart for God you know this is just what we do this is what's you know required and the staff were always encouraging us I had to do it too I know it was super you know can be super awkward but this is how we you know open ourselves up to God and reach out for, you know, his healing and it's okay, we're all forgiven, it's fine. So, there was definitely this sense of, okay, sort of stepping gently into that which rapidly became a much bigger thing where we had this openness and brokenness week that came with this speaker L. That was I think maybe I want to say it was either week three or week [00:14:31] six. So, it was very early into the program and this this speaker walks in. You know, we know we're going to have this week called openness and brokenness. Sometimes it's called sin and repentance or the cross and repentance. It's called different things in different places, but it's this idea of yeah, you really have to be open and broken before the Lord so that he can heal all of the like deep deep deep wounds that you have. I mean, like I said, I was open. I'm like, "Oh, let's do this. Let's figure this out. Speaker L like walked into the room and immediately my instinct cringed. I felt this but I fought it right like cuz they're like, "Oh my gosh, we love this guy. [00:15:15] He's absolutely fantastic. He spoke on my DTS. It's all great." And so I'm really trying to be open. I'm a strong personality. I ask a lot of questions that often gets me into trouble in these spaces. And so I was trying to just go with the flow, but this guy gave me the ick like insane. And I just kept my mouth shut and I sat there and I think it it was by day three he had called a meeting with my one-on-one and myself because he said that I was shooting daggers at him through my eyes from from my seat. I was looking at him in a way that you know. So, I go to this meeting with my [00:15:59] one-on-one and this speaker and he was like, "You know, I feel like you're shooting taggers at me through your eyes. Do I remind you of an abuser? Most people that don't like me, it's because I remind them of an abuser." And I was like, "No, I have not experienced that form of abuse. No, you don't remind me of an abuser. I'm I'm sorry. I'm not trying to shoot daggers at you through my eyes. And then he started just spiritualizing all this stuff. Like, well, there's wounding from the your father. I'm like, you don't even know me, bro. Like, how can you sit here and say this? I was so uncomfortable. And I'm crying because I'm like, I'm [00:16:42] stressed. Have I done something wrong? But I don't, you know, this was the beginning of the cognitive dissonance because I'm saying there's something I'm I should be listening to them. They know better than me, I guess. but also ew like this is not okay. And he was like, "Well, can I pray for you?" And I'm like, "Whatever gets me out of here, that's fine." So he goes to put his arm around me and I stiffened and he sort of like withdrew cuz I was like, "This is not okay." But I think he still was like touching my back and I was just like, "Gh, get this guy off of me." And so whatever we left that meeting, but later he had personal ministry time with each [00:17:27] of the students with their one-on ones. So it wasn't just him and the student, but it was only the female students that he asked if they would sit on his lap to receive healing like the father's healing. Like they all every all of us had daddy issues and he could heal them if we sat on his lap. And when I heard that cuz he definitely did not ask me. I was like he would have known and I would have probably lashed out in some way. But the other women like he asked and some of them were like no thank you. And some of them felt like they had to because they were being told this is how you heal from these wounds. in that already. I was like, "Whoa, this is [00:18:11] super sketch." And I'm trying to talk to the staff and my school leader about this and say, "Guys, this is not okay." And they're like, "Oh no, he's done that for all of us as well." Like the female staff were saying that. Oh yeah, he's all we always invite him to come teach on our DTS's. And I'm like, "This is not okay." And nobody listened. Like it was I was just sort of gaslit to being like, "No, like this is God. This is God wanting to heal you through this thing. And if you are rejecting it, you are rejecting that healing. So I was like, well, I guess I'm rejecting that healing. To this day, I've spoken with women from my DTS and one of them actually said, I remember like you were so mad and you were telling us like you do not have to do that and then they [00:18:53] felt just like shame as well because like they didn't want to do it, but they felt they had to. >> How old are the other people on the DTS? So you mentioned the staff is your age is the top of the staff and then under and you're 24 at this point, right? >> So what was like the average age of people with you? >> Like 18, 19. >> So you have 18year-old girls >> that are being put in this situation straight out of high school. The only person that is like a little bit more life experience really is you. And you're there saying absolutely not. This is not safe. This is not okay behavior. these are boundary crosses. What are you doing? Why are you allowing this to happen? How they just didn't listen to you? Did that affect the rest of your [00:19:37] time at the school? Did that put a target on you? What What happens? >> Yeah, I definitely do feel like it put a target on in some way cuz then I I really kept speaking up. I kept asking questions. I kept challenging the speakers that would come in if if they said something that I thought was cuckoo, you know, or didn't line up with my understanding of of biblical theology or something. I felt like I was asking genuine curious questions. I wanted to understand. I wasn't out there saying I'm right. I did want to understand. And it sort of came to this place where I was going to my cousin's wedding and the school leader who was my age, bless, he was like taking me to the airport and he [00:20:22] was like, "Hey, we are not sure that we're going to let you go on the outreach that's coming up in a couple of weeks because you influence the group too much." And I was like, "Oh my gosh." And I felt bad. I felt, oh, I'm I'm doing something wrong and I don't know what. and they couldn't tell me exactly, well, it's this or this is the sin that you've committed or it was just you influenced the group too much. And I was already several months into this and several thousand. So, I was like, "Okay, thank you for telling me." And then I didn't speak for a week in class. I literally did not speak. I didn't ask a question. I didn't [00:21:06] speak to anybody else. And after that week, my school leader came back to me and he was like, "Wow, we've really seen a change in you. We really think that you've understood and you've got it and God's worked in you and all that stuff. So, we're going to allow you to go on the outreach, but like essentially we're going to watch you. You have to sort of watch yourself." So, I was like, "That's so interesting." Because God didn't speak anything to me. Didn't reveal any sort of, you know, thing that I had done wrong. I just I just stopped asking questions. So, I found that really on really early on in my YWAM journey that when I asked questions, I got in trouble and when I didn't ask questions, I could fit in. [00:21:48] >> There's also a theme going on that if you could speak to before we get back what happened at the end of your one-on-one, at the end of ETSs, I think it would be important. But there's this theme that I heard in your story about hearing from God. You know, you have to hear from God. And how you as a as a 24 year old might not be hearing from God correctly. And another 24 year old may tell you how you need to hear from God correctly or or tells you, "No, this is what God said about you." Can you explain that dynamic for us and what it meant to you then and and and and what you felt then when they discussed that with you? I had grown up in a pretty charismatic church, but this whole idea of, you know, there's a sort of formula [00:22:33] to hear the voice of God. We had a whole week teaching on it in our DTS. You know, this is how you hear the voice of God and then we practice. And that was the idea of you practice and you might get it wrong, but you keep practicing. You keep listening to try to discern the still small voice inside of you. What's you speaking? What's the devil speaking? or what's God speaking? One of the ways that they did that in DTS sort of tested that, practiced that was around praying about our outreach locations. So in my DTS, and I know this is really common across the world, they said, "Okay, we've got these three locations. Here's the three locations. We want you all to [00:23:15] go away and pray and ask God which location you should go to for your outreach." So we all went away. We prayed, you know, they gave us a certain amount of time. It was like a certain within I can't remember what it was 10 minutes or 15 minutes or something. And then we come back and we tell them what we feel like we heard from God. And so everyone was like, you know, I heard this, I heard that. And they're like, oh, such a good try, you guys. actually we heard that, you know, so and so and so and so and so and so is going to go here and this group is going to go there and this is how we're going to split up the team. And it was really framed like this. Oh, that was really cute. You guys actually heard something different and [00:23:59] what we heard carries more weight because we're more experienced. We're been on the mission field longer. We've been in YWAM longer. We carry the YWAM DNA. If I never hear that phrase again, it will be too soon and you guys don't. So, good try. Let's, you know, keep it at, but this is where you're going. So, we were all like, and then there was some people who heard quote unquote the country they should go to, and then that was confirmed by the staff like, yes. So, I was you are going to go there. And then it was like, yay, I heard from God. And then the rest of us were like, oh man, I didn't hear from God, I guess. So that felt already then like it felt very disconnecting for me because you were [00:24:44] like well I did everything that I thought I should. So what's wrong with me? And we're sort of taught throughout the journey, not just ATS but the YWAM journey that if you're not hearing from God, if you're not being healed, if you know something isn't going right, there's something wrong with you. there's something that there's some hidden sin, something you haven't confessed, and so you have to go away and, you know, do a deep dark dive into your soul to figure out what it is that's quote unquote blocking you from hearing the voice of God. So, that was definitely that experience. >> The YWAM DNA is such an interesting phrase. Like, it's in us, but it's not in you yet. I mean, it's just a really interesting way to frame how to tell [00:25:31] people what to do and that you have power over them. Are most of these places that you guys are being sent for outreach, like what are they like? Are they all like cool adventure spots? [laughter] Is there What's going on? Why are these places on the books? >> It really depends. So nowadays, there is a Ywan base, I think, in every country on the planet technically. And so they will often send you to another YWAM base in another location. And if there's not a YWAM base, maybe there's already a relationship that's been established with a pastor, like a local pastor or a local missionary, sometimes from another organization, but they really try to keep it in my experience in you know, [00:26:14] YWAM to YWAM sort of thing. So it can be like a cool adventure spot perhaps. Sometimes I know in my journey where it was like if they couldn't get visas for some of the students or if there was some financial reason then they would suddenly hear from the Lord about we're going to stay closer to home you know we're going to stay in Switzerland or whatever. So it really depended. >> Where did you feel like you were being called and where did your leaders feel you were being called and where do you end up? To be honest, I can't remember where I heard from God that I was supposed to go, but I wound up in Thailand. So, I had been to Thailand [00:26:58] before on my previous travels. We were going to be split into two teams where one team would go sort of up into the bush bush and then my team stayed in the town of Chiang Mai which is like a city and we were going to minister to university students quote unquote which simply meant we go to the university campus and try to find people who spoke English and chat with them a couple times a week and then we would do anybody who's listening to this who knows why I'm is going to know the prayer walks. We would go on prayer walks because we had to pray against the spirits or the strongholds that you know were over that city or whatever which was really sort of a way of like shoot [00:27:40] we don't have any ministry planned today but we need to keep you guys doing something so we're going to go on prayer works prayer walks and and do intercession. So I went to Thailand and did nothing for 3 months but I paid dearly for it. We're gonna get there, right? So, the end of DTS, you have a one-on-one and it does not go as planned as you thought it would. So, walk us through that one-on-one and then what gets you to Australia? Like, how do you get to Australia next? >> By this time, you know, you're 6 months in, thousands of dollars. I think I was about $6,000 in costs about 6,000 for my DTS. There was several of us because what they do is they want you to go away [00:28:23] and pray about coming back on staff, coming back for another school, another course that they run. And I knew that I was in this for my degree. And so I thought, oh, there is a course that they're running. A bunch of us were going to try to apply, you know, like, let's stay together. We're all trauma bonded now, so let's stay together in the same space and, you know, keep going. But I had shock of all shocks liked a boy. And that was a big no no because we talked about it to each other at the last week of outreach which was too soon. We had to wait another week. We got in big trouble for that. >> Is there like a prescribed amount of time you have to wait? >> Yeah. So you're not allowed to date in [00:29:05] DTS anybody. You're not allowed to drink in most places. There's several rules like that. If you were going to date somebody from UDTS, you had to wait until after graduation to talk to them about it even to even say, "Hey, I like you." So, we accidentally talked about it in the very last week of outreach. So, we were like a week early. And that really upset my one-on-one. We told her cuz we felt so guilty. We We told our one-on- ones. We're like, "Oh my god, we're so sorry. I'm 24 years old." And I'm like, "I'm so sorry that me and this guy talked about the fact that we like each other." purity culture and she was super super upset. So I applied for this other course at the location there in [00:29:49] Colorado Springs. On the night of graduation, the leaders of that next course pulled me aside and they said, "Hey, look, we've got this uh reference from your one-on-one and we will accept you for the next course provisionally." But essentially, she said I was emotionally unstable. She said I influenced other people against the leaders and stuff. So I was going to they were going to allow me to come to the the course. I was not going to be allowed to date anybody, but the guy that I that we I had liked that we were quote unquote dating, he was going to be allowed to date anybody he wanted, but I wouldn't be able allowed to date and I had to submit to this sort of like leadership oversight and extra [00:30:34] discipline essentially. I did not go back. So that's when I was like, "Okay, I need to pursue my degree." And I actually went up in Kona next, Kona, Hawaii for a counseling school. That was lovely because there was like licensed therapists who were teaching the sessions. That is one of the places where Speaker L comes back in to the story because the Colorado Springs base that I had been on, they brought their DTS and rather DTS in Hawaii and they brought this guy to come and and speak there. >> Didn't you also you said something about that at the time, right? You spoke up again. >> My first week in this course was there [00:31:17] was a licensed therapist who was teaching and I told her about the speaker. I said, "Look, there was a speaker. This is what he did. Is this okay?" And she was like, "No, this is never okay." And she was so insens. But that was really validating for me to be like, "Okay, I'm not crazy. I thought this was crazy cuz everyone was saying this is so spiritual and so holy." She was like, "No." So then when I found out that he was coming to that he came to speak on a DTS in Hawaii, I did go to the head of the DTS programs and sort of reported him and said this is what happened. This is not okay. And here is this licensed therapist who's backing me up. But as far as I know, nothing was [00:32:01] done. >> So moving forward 2007, you end up in Australia. >> What led you to Australia? Also, this space operated in a kind of different manner or but had a unique kind of style to it. So, describe what that environment was like. Where were you? How did it operate? Give us a walk through of your typical day once you arrived there on site. Well, I went to Perth because they had a great website. This is before social media. Like, Facebook was just barely becoming a thing. So, the websites were it. And I thought, "Oh, this place looks super cool. It looks really big and I need to do these courses. They have three courses there I I need to do. I can stay [00:32:43] there for a year to do these courses back to back. So I don't have to be traveling around. So off to Australia it was straight away I noticed this sort of sense of separation between staff and students. So I show up there couple hundred people and I'm like I'm going to be here for a year. So I also want to make friends with Steph because all these other people are going to leave after 3 months and I'm still going to be here. And I would go and ask people and the first question they always ask me was I would be like, "Hi, I'm Shelby. You know, what's your name?" And they would be like, "Oh, I'm Anna. Are you student or staff?" And I was say, "Oh, well, I'm a student, but I'm going to be here for a year." And they're like, "Oh, okay. Well, it's nice to meet you. Bye." and then they would just leave. So, I [00:33:27] was there for my biblical core course, which was one of the sort of base courses that I needed for my degree. It was nuts. Our days were like 17-hour days. And anybody who knows this course in Y will be like, "Yeah, but it's a super intense course." Well, you take a super intense course and you add on the culture of the base and you have a recipe for disaster. So the day started we had I hate this term but they call them family chores. And so in YWAM you have two hours of work duty that you're required to do like 5 days a week. So some sort of practical job whether it's cooking meals or cleaning up or doing [00:34:11] admin or finances or whatever. Sometimes it's babysitting the leader's children. Sometimes it's cleaning their houses depending on the location. We had extra in Perth and they called them family chores. So we had family chores in the morning and then we would have worship or intercession and then we would have classes. So you're in class for several hours, you know, you'd have lunch and then you'd have homework. We had insane amounts of homework in this course. There was also though what they would call mandatory fun and it was like I remember the first time they were like we're gonna have this theme night and I was talking to a classmate and I was like that would be fun. We should try to [00:34:53] get our homework done because our homework was required to be done by Saturday night so that we had to have a day off. The school leader was like oh actually you don't have a choice. you have to be there. And we were like, so do we get extra time to do our homework or, you know, and no, you just have to get it done. And then we would have sort of like a three-hour work duty cuz we did dinner. So we had to serve like plate and serve each dinner for 300 people and then clear their plates and then we had to serve dessert and do the same. And it was it was so wild. So we were running like 17our days, but we had mandatory evangelism nights. We had mandatory community night which was Friday night. We weren't allowed to go [00:35:37] out to the pubs. Australia is like cafe or pubs. When the cafe is closed, the pubs open. We weren't allowed to. There was an insane amount of control as well. So for instance, if you would get sick cuz we were run ragged. I was living in a building that had two sort of big dormatory spaces along the hall. There was like 20 or 30 DTS young women on the one side and then those of us, the females who were in this course, we were on the other side and there was maybe 14 of us in bunk beds. So, we had to have our space super clean. If we didn't have our space super clean, they would come and check it. So, I was like 25, 26 at [00:36:23] this point. They would come and check it. And if you didn't, if you if it wasn't clean enough, if your bed wasn't made, you would get a demerit. And then if you had like three demerits, you would have to do extra work duty. So that felt super infantilizing. There was older older people there. There was bass staff who were taking the course with me, you know, that were in their mid to late 20s, early 30s. But if you got sick, for instance, they would come and check on you and you had to be like at death's door in order to be excused from evangelism, intercession, worship, class, whatever. And it wasn't good enough for like your flatmate or your roommate to say, "Hey, so and so's sick. They can't come into class." They were like, "No, we're going to go check on [00:37:06] them, you know, just to make sure they're okay." But it was really like, "Hey, are you sure you're sick enough that you can't, you know, you're missing out?" sort of thing. I There was so many stories from there, but the control was was really intense. We were essentially required to stand up in worship. If you sat down, you could fail worship because you weren't participating like they wanted you to. There was a woman on my course who failed that part of the course because she wouldn't stand up every single worship time. I was a very good girl. I had to do everything because I was so deep into this pocket now with my time and with my finances. [00:37:49] And I'm like, I need this course to do this degree. So, I have to follow all the rules. I have to stand up and raise my hands and do all the things that they're expecting me to do. So, I really went into a deep space of hypervigilance where I was on edge the whole time because anything anything you didn't even know could be an infraction could become an infraction [gasps] and it would be this big drama where they would come and talk to you and you know talk about your inner spiritual life that you know you were failing. At any point are you like this is wild and I don't want to be here anymore or are you so in it at this point? You think this is good? [00:38:32] You're like this is what I want. This is where I want to be. What's going on with you in this moment? Are both of those things coexisting? >> No, I definitely wanted out of this space because it was so damaging. But I I remember we had to they they sort of discouraged you from calling home or talking to your friends or family. You know, Skype wasn't really a thing yet. Like Wi-Fi wasn't hardly a thing. >> Wonder why. Wonder why they don't want y'all calling home to talk to your friends and family. >> L asked me to sit on his lap today to heal my father wound. Dad. >> Yes. No, it was it was interesting [00:39:15] because they they they really made it difficult to talk to your your support system. So, they wouldn't let you use a base phone even if you had an international calling card. You had to go find an international calling card somewhere. You were not allowed as a woman to walk around out of the base by yourself. And so you had to essentially go find a calling card, find a pay phone, find a buddy who will come and sit with you while you talk to your family >> in the internationally known dangerous city of Perth, Australia. >> Yes. So I remember there was I think I only spoke to my family once or twice when I was there for like five months. And I [00:40:00] remember speaking to I think my older sister And she was like, "I think you might be in a cult." She was like, "Do we need to come get you?" Cuz I was not doing well. And I was like, "No, it's fine. I got it. I can handle it." That was the thing. I can handle it. It's fine. Yes, they're totally cuckoo, but it's only, you know, x amount of time. And I mean, again, then it's international travels was still feeling really big. You couldn't be checking in with each other via SMS or anything like that regularly. So, it was just this sort of like and my family from the beginning had been quite iffy about WWM. They were like, I don't get this. Why do you have to pay to go work for them, you know, and I was like, it's missions, you [00:40:45] know? They're like, yes, but people are paying for your education. What is that? You know, and God, the mental gymnastics that we all had to do to make this make sense in our heads. So, they were there was, I think, a sense for me as well like I got to prove to them that I can do this. It was rough. It was really rough. So, it only got rougher. I completed that course. All sorts of shenanigans that happened. And then I was doing a seminar, like a teaching English seminar, and they moved me to a staff house, which was too far for them to come and check on me when I was sick. And so, I would sometimes be like, "Well, sorry, I'm not coming to worship because I'm not feeling well, you know." And they they didn't really do much [00:41:28] about that. But it was in that moment where I realized I was extremely hypervigilant and I was becoming depressed and I wasn't doing well. I actually So I'm a very good student. I am I do all the things and there was one day I remember where I went to class and I hadn't done my homework and I had forgot I it didn't connect in my brain and for me that was a really red flag that my brain is so overloaded that I'm not remembering to do my homework assignments. That's when I decided, okay, I'm not going to stay for this next course that I was supposed to stay for, and instead I'm going to go home and get drunk every single day [00:42:14] [laughter] for six months. I mean, it was rough. >> You leave Perth and you go back to your family home. >> Yes. >> And you're just crashing out. >> Yes. I had no idea what to do with that. I had not known anybody else who was in a similar situation to me going through like a YWAM degree like I was. Anytime I tried to speak up about it, there was always minimization, gaslighting, you know, this sort of, oh, I'm so sorry that happened to you. And I genuinely just I didn't know what to do with it. And so I turned to alcohol just to sort of like numb it and try to make sense of it. And that was, [00:42:57] you know, it was 6 months and then I went to another YWAM course and it was you I wasn't addicted or anything, but the damage was so it was so deep. It just I had no idea how to make that make sense and how people stayed there. I mean, I saw grown adults, people in their 30s, just rushed by these people because they talked to the the guy that they liked and they they were just eviscerated for it and their character was eviscerated for it and the the control of every every aspect of your life, every minute of your day was [00:43:40] controlled. I just I didn't know how to make it make sense. I have one question before we move on about the control. This sounds exactly like Scientology. There I said it. But I do have a question about the control. Did they give like a spiritual reason or a biblical reason for the control like that they had to have >> always? >> Okay. What was that? >> It was because we had put ourselves under their authority by coming to the course or coming to staff on the base. So by doing that, we agreed to put ourselves under their spiritual covering and their spiritual authority. And we needed to submit to that because if we didn't spiritual consequences, we would be outside of God's will. We would be outside of God's grace. We would be [00:44:24] outside of a spiritual covering. And that's where the devil can get you. Did you ever have a scenario where your spiritual covering was coming from a 19year-old and you were like 25 or 26? Was there ever that gap where like the person below you was barely old enough to, you know, in the US vote or smoke or, you know, anything like that? >> Yeah, for sure. For sure. >> So, it's like a 18-year-old telling you, "Oh, yeah, submit to my authority." I mean, when I was 18, I was a flipping idiot. >> It's probably really wild to think about now when you're like that. I should have just put that little twerp in his place or her place. It's fascinating. And that's kind of what I'm hoping our listeners are thinking through what [00:45:08] scenarios need to be in place for this to be normalized enough that you would go along with it. >> It was coming from every level, right? So there's the base leaders that are saying this and then there's your course leaders and then your one-on- ons. And so even if your one-on-one was yeah 18 or 19, it was there was all these layers of authority and the the leaders would be up there saying like the the base leaders would be, you know, in front of the community saying you have to, you know, submit to your course leader. You have to submit to your staff because they're an extension of us, the base leader, which is an extension of God, you know, which is this this covering that you need to be safe. So it was just reinforced and that was how you were [00:45:54] taught and trained as well. So yeah, these young people were okay. I guess I have to come and keep you accountable and I don't know what that means but you have to tell me everything you're thinking and doing. It was wild. It was just wild. But we were never ever ever encouraged to think critically to use our brain. In fact, it was discouraged because if I asked questions, then I got in trouble because I was challenging the spiritual covering, challenging the authority. >> Okay, so this is Shelby sent an outline, a timeline, and she threw a sentence in there that's two sentences about what we're about to describe. And I literally stopped the outline, and I thought to myself, what in the hell? This this is more than two sentences. So, all right. [00:46:39] So, I'm I'm going to kind of skip forward 2008 and 2010. We're going to group them together. There's a theme that happens within your story, which is you're sick. You get sick and you are like, I got to push through it. So, I do I do want you to describe that when you got ill, like why did you believe you had to push through it? And then I want you to talk about nearly dying and where you were and just describe that scene and the response that you got from leadership. And yes, you heard me correctly, nearly dying. So, okay, there you go. By the time 2008 rolled around where I had been on an outreach where I [00:47:21] was really sick, I had definitely been conditioned to pay attention to my leaders, you know, to not ask too many questions out loud. And for me, it became a sense of desperation because I was so deep in this financially and with time and energy that I couldn't stop. I had to finish my degree. So, I needed to pass these courses. I could not arrive at a place where I pissed off my leaders enough [sighs] that they wouldn't pass me because it's not just the, you know, educational informationational knowledge piece. There was always the character piece as well. So, you could pass all your tests and do all your stuff, but if they thought that your character was [00:48:04] lacking, they could fail you. This was a sense of deep desperation of I have to make sure that I play the role that they're expecting me to play. in order to be safe, in order to pass and to keep moving forward so I can finish this degree and sort of just be done with this pressure. So I was on outreach. It was a intro to primary healthcare course which I loved. I had such a good time. We were in Cambodia and then Thailand. I got the flu so I was very very sick and we were running health clinics. So, we had a little pharmacy and then we were doing just sort of like basic diagnosing of, you know, sort of the most basic things. I was very sick. I had the flu [00:48:48] and I was telling my team like, "I'm so sorry. I can't go to clinic today. I'm really sick." And my course leader and my staff were like, "Yeah, [sighs and gasps] but like we just we really think you should just push through, you know, like we'll push you on the pharmacy so you don't have to like be doing it." And I was like, "But I'm sick and you want me to be giving medicine to other people? Like what we've just learned about infectious diseases is that we should not be in contact." They were like, "No, we really, you know, okay." It was like, "I guess you could stay." But there was such disappointment, you know, and such like, "Oh, you're weak. You're weak if you can't if you can't push through and [00:49:31] do this." So, I did. And I never normally do this because I think it's stupid. I'm like, just if you're sick, stay home. Don't get other people sick. But I pushed through and wow, they just thought that was amazing and I was so good. And in their estimation, that made me a person of character because I would push through and go and do this thing while I was seriously ill. >> And they didn't think like, well, she might get other people sick. Like that was never something that crossed their mind. No, I would say in a general sense in my 18 years in YWAM, the mission always comes first or almost always comes first. >> So that was the thing. That's what I was [00:50:14] there for. I was there to serve. So I needed to serve. >> Okay. So I mean that that in itself is insane. Like you have the flu. Everybody's had the flu. You should not be out talking to people and serving people. you should be at home and you can get seriously ill if you push your body with the flu to the point where people have died of the flu. You all right? So you you push through you had the flu, you end up in Haiti in 2010 and from the jump it's not good. So talk to us about when you get there and then oh by the way you get beyond sick in Haiti. Walk us through that. Yeah, we went to Haiti. It was another It was a community health [00:50:59] development outreach. So, we had just been in Hawaii and then it was after the earthquake, the big earthquake that had happened there in 2010. And so, we were going to Haiti to do our outreach and try to practice the skills that we had learned. So, I must have gotten bit the first day by a mosquito. By day five, I wake up and I'm seriously ill and my course leader, who bless, super intelligent person, but zero compassion or empathy. It's just not >> Were they 19? >> No. No. Like, he was a full middle-aged man with kids and, you know, everything. [00:51:43] I think he just he just didn't I feel like there was a certain blindness to people. Anyways, we were supposed to go to the market and I said, "Look, I'm so sick. I'm so sick. I don't think I can go." And he was like, "Oh, but you know, we really should. It's the day we go to the market and discover the market, you know." And [laughter] I was like, "I can't. I can't, man." So, he's like, "Fine. Okay. Stay." So, I somehow I don't even remember how I wound up on a dirty mattress in a hallway and I was laying there like shivering and I started shaking and I had extremely high fever. And this poor Haitian woman comes by and she's, "Oh my gosh, there's this [00:52:25] white lady dying in the hallway. What the heck?" And I tried to tell her in French, "I need water. Can I get water?" And bless, she runs and gets some other foreigner who was there. And this man comes and he's like, "Oh my gosh, cuz my team is gone. They're still at the market." And so he's getting me water and he's blessed like praying over me and just, you know, staying with me. So it turned out that I had dangy fever and ambic dysentery at the same time. So my teammate/friend, she stayed by my side. Bless this woman. She made me like a cartoon book of like the time that she was watching over me. It's hilarious, but I went to the bathroom 158 times in 4 days. She had to [00:53:09] clean me up a couple times, but I had very serious dangy fever. And there's no medicine that you can give to heal from dangi fever. You just have to treat the symptoms and hope for the best. So, a lot of people die from it because they become dehydrated and their brain, if you can't keep the fever down, your brain essentially boils and you know, it can kill you. So what happens with dangy fever? You have sort of a week or so where you're really bad and then you start to feel better. You have two weeks where you're sort of okay and then it takes a big dip. My course leader was like, "I'm not sure you have dangi." I'm like, "It's not malaria. I was tested. This is all that can be." So I I was hallucinating. I needed care [00:53:53] like 24 hours. My teammates had to take turns taking care of me. It was really bad. I almost died. and through the second the second course. So there's the you're sick, you're okay, and then you're sick again. We had been working with another organization, I think it was Food for the Hungry in Haiti, and they were like, you're not okay. And I was like, it's fine. I can keep going. And another of my teammates had typhoid at the same time. And they it bless bless this organization. They were like, "Can our doctor look at you, please?" We were like, "Yes, absolutely." So, he checks us both out and they were like, "Y'all need to go home. You guys are not [00:54:38] okay." And my the course leader had left Haiti, so we were a little bit on our own. There was a staff member that came. We I was still teaching. I was like sick drawing pictures of, you know, the five Fs, the feces like cycle, and all this stuff. It was really bad. I was so so so ill. And finally this other organization was like, "Can we get you home?" And so they medically evacuated us. They had their doctor, you know, write a letter. They got us on a plane. Actually, it was my sister that got us on a plane cuz we're in Haiti. And we went to a an internet cafe. I was trying to Skype my older sister who's like, you know, oldest child, type A. She'll get [ \_\_ ] [00:55:21] done, you know. And yeah, I was like, "Check your email." That's all I could get out over Skype. And so I just said, "Please get us home. Here's my friend's information." Within 45 minutes, my sister had us on flights out with a medical letter that we needed to get out to get the the airlines to change the tickets and everything. It was wild. So, one of the side effects of dangy fever is depression as well. It takes 6 months. It took me six months to recover from this. I was in bed almost, you know, off and on for six months with depression and my body was just ravaged and at the same time I was having to make up the credits that I missed by coming home early. So, I didn't have any [00:56:06] any support from WWAM. Nobody, you know, I mean, I had to be in contact with my course leader because I needed these credits. So, we were working out how that could happen. But Wo didn't care. There was They're like, "Cool. You're good. You're home." >> Were you responsible for all the medical bills as well? >> Yes, absolutely. >> And did and no one offered to be like, "Oh, by the way, you nearly died and we were like, "No, you should stay and teach us, teach people." No, >> we should help you out here a little bit. No one said anything to you. >> Never. Never. Because it was my choice to go. you know, I paid $10,000 for the course, but they didn't have any money to give me back to pay for those things. [00:56:51] >> And then they still were like, "Oh, yeah, you need to make the credits up, so we're going to keep your money. We'll keep your 10K." When you're recovering, did you ever think, "I can't do this anymore. I'm done. This is it." >> No, Jay, because that would be weakness. And you can't be weak. I'm being sarcastic for those who maybe don't understand that it genuinely by this time what that was 2010 so I was four years into this probably close to 70k from flights and the courses paying for the courses I was close to the end I was like let me just finish let me just finish [00:57:32] >> so you get back you're at the finish line come on let's just get across the finish line and then you can do What is your goal after you get across the finish line? [gasps] >> Well, my goal was to be a missionary helping missionaries. And so, I didn't know yet if that would be with WWAM or with a different organization. I had had a little bit of array of hope, if you will, cuz I had in 20 in 2009, I had visited this space here in Switzerland, and I thought, "Oh gosh, these people are normal. They treat us like adults. So like, okay, there is potentially normal parts of WWAM that are not as [00:58:16] like cuckoo as what I had experienced up to that point. So part of me was like, I wonder if I could end up at some place like that. But at this point, I just didn't know. I was waiting on the Lord. >> So you get back from almost dying. What happens to get you to Switzerland? And if you all didn't notice, she has a little bit of an accent. I don't know if you [laughter] I think Shelby does know that she has a little bit of an accent. Yeah. So, that would explain it for anybody listening who's like, "Does she have an accent? Does she not?" She does. So, you end up in Switzerland. How'd you get there? Walk us through that. Well, >> I had done two of my courses in Switzerland in a tiny village called Berttony in 2009. And that's where I [00:59:00] first was like, "Oh, these people are normal. This is cool." Now in my region here in Switzerland, so I currently live in Switzerland. There are several YWAM bases and so I they had courses that I needed to do. So I came back and did the rest of my counseling courses that I needed in another base that was close to this space and I worked with the Britney base. So that was sort of when I finished my last course at the beginning of 2011. I was like, "Yay, I'm done. I'm graduated. What do I want to do now? Sure, why not? I'll go back to Switzerland. I liked Switzerland. I thought it was cool. They did treat us like normal people. It felt like. So, I thought, Lord, lead me. And when I [00:59:44] prayed, I felt like Switzerland. I mean, who wouldn't? I don't know. So, that's when I came back. I I applied for staff. I had to get a work permit, which was really hard. It's harder now. It was really hard then. And then I came back on staff to this base here in Switzerland cuz I thought these people are cool. This is where I could stay for 3 to 5 years maybe, you know, have a have a slightly longer commitment. [gasps] That's how I wound up back. >> I think we'd all well maybe not all of us, but I I would like to be in Switzerland right now, especially [laughter] with everything going on in America. So yeah. So, okay. So, you go you move well you go to Switzerland, you [01:00:28] go to this base and you meet someone. Who do you meet? Because this kind of changes the story for you personally. >> Yeah. When I came back on staff in 2011 already before I had known the person who became my husband when I was here in 2009 and 2010. We would play volleyball together. So, he was the farmer's son. Didn't speak any hardly any English. I didn't speak hardly any or French. Somehow we fell in love. He was not part of WWAM, but they asked him to come and staff their first bilingual French and English DTS that they ran that year in the fall of 2011. And there was this giant conspiracy on base to get us [01:01:11] together and it worked. So we fell in love, started dating and then he he had staffed that ETSs and then he was like, "Cool, I'm done. I'm going back to farming." So we dated very quickly and we got married at the end of 2012. So I was like, "Okay, I am 30. I have done all my traveling. You know, I've done a lot of stuff. I'm really happy to sort of settle down." Cuz he was like, "Farmms don't move. If we're together, this is my life. This is going to be your life." And I'm like, "Yeah, this sounds amazing. Stability and getting to live here in this beautiful village." And it was very much yeah such a beautiful thing. So I was really really happy. [01:01:53] >> And you mentioned he is a farmer and his family has a connection to WWAM. Can you explain that connection and why this farm is so important to WWAM? Silon's parents met in WWAM as well like back in the late '7s and they had got married. Now at this location, this farm here in Switzerland is sort of part of WWAM lore, if you will. Like there's a there's several books that we all have to read in YWM, oddly enough, all written by YWmers and then we have to buy them and read them in our YW courses. One of those the book that everybody has to read in their DTS is [01:02:35] this book by the late Lauren Cunningham called is that Really You God? And it's his story sort of how Ywam started. In that book at some point Lauren Cunningham was in Lausan. There was a Ywan base in Lausan. He thought God's going to give us a farm. I can't remember why. And I don't know, seven years later or something like that, this base here that used to be an orphanage, there was a farm that was sort of with it. And YW was able to be given this massive property with this farm attached. So there was tenants farming the farm. And when those tenants left some years later, they WWAM needed somebody else to come and farm the farm. And so they called up my father-in-law [01:03:21] and offered him the position. The thing is YWM always says nobody in YW is paid. Everybody raises their own support. That is not true. There are exceptions. My father-in-law and my mother-in-law were one exception. So they were essentially paid a salary. They were YWAM staff. They came to run this farm. They were paid a salary and then sort of given a bonus, let's say, based on the harvests and and things like that. But it was very deeply connected in with the families who had started the WWAM base here. So it was very deeply ingrained with the WWA base and the farm. But rules, laws change and things like that. And I think it was in 1999 that they had to separate those two entities. So that since then my in-laws have rented the [01:04:05] farm from WWAM. So they rented the house and the barn and some land and sort of ran it as their own business. They were no longer WWAM staff. it was their business. So when me and Silvin got together, he was working for his dad and his dad was still renting this farm from WWAM. So they had dairy cows and you know potatoes and all sorts of things, but that was sort of more separate. However, the farm has remained sort of part of WWAM lore and this idea of you know Lauren Cunningham, God told Lauren Cunningham we were going to have a farm. God provided. So, it's one of those stories that they tell all the time. And even now, like when they if they have a [01:04:52] new school or something, the farm is sort of included in that. God gave us a farm. This is WWAM's farm. You know, we're we're running a farm. So in the village, W is not super well looked on because people don't speak French and technically the people are low income so they don't pay as many taxes but like still send their kids to the school or you know still take up resources in the village. Plus WWAM was given I think six different properties in the village by people because they were a missions organization and then WWAM bought one. So they're a massive property owner in the village as well, which is a bit of a sore spot. So things are have been tense between WWAM and the village. And so [01:05:39] Silvin's parents had sort of become a people of peace, you know, a bridge between WWAM and the village sort of thing. And so when Sven and I got married, I was YWAM staff, he was not. And we were sort of expected to take on that role as well to sort of be a bridge between WWAM and the village to give WWAM a good name to defend WWAM to the village to sort of prove that we're normal. Please like us. We're okay. So that was something that we sort of took on implicitly when we got married. That was our role as well. I keep I keep [01:06:23] thinking as you're telling this story, I keep thinking about you're living an early 2000CW show life. You nearly die on some wild journey and then you end up marrying a Swiss farmer in a small town. I'm like, see there, it's like the CW show we would all watch back then. >> More girls. >> Yeah, it's crazy. But I think that is helpful to know the connection to the farm and and what the how the community feels because I think that really plays into kind of your story and and and continues to be a conflict and well my opinion and how why WHAM operates. I would imagine they'd have similar difficulties in other towns where they operate. So [01:07:05] >> yes. Yes, for sure. >> So you're not married yet. We're going to get there. But you do meet two people early on, I guess. Is it early? Well, you can tell us. When did you meet ENR? Who are they? How are they connected to the base? What are their roles in YWAM? Walk us through that as well. >> Yeah, when I first joined the base as staff, I can't remember exactly what roles they were in. They had been there already for a long time. I think they came as staff when they were like in their early 20s and now they were maybe in their mid-30s. you know, they had three kids and they're super friendly, you know, super inviting to certain people and I had sort of got this vibe [01:07:49] early on where I felt like E was really like, "Oh yeah, let's be friends. Come over, you know, let's hang out." And I I felt a little off. I felt like it was one of those things where it was like, "I've been chosen." And I was like, "I don't like that. I don't want to be chosen." So, I was sort of like, "Yeah, it's okay." But then when me and Silon got together and I realized I'm going to be living here long term. This is my life now. I will be living in Switzerland unless something crazy happens. You know, there was definitely this idea because there's so much metriculation in WWAM. So people come for a year, maybe two, and then they leave. And so for me, there was definitely this sense of, oh, these [01:08:31] people have been here a long time. I really want those relationships that I will feel anchored. You know, they know the space, they know the country, they know the culture. I can probably learn a lot from them. You know, I'm like, they are nice. They're very like fun. And, you know, they were always having the barbecues and, you know, going and doing traveling and let's go out. And so, when I had sort of been like, okay, me and Son were together. and R& had been a big part of that happening, making that happen in some ways. I was like, okay, I wanted to open myself up to the potential of this friendship. And so I did. And so that became, we became, you know, what felt like close friends rather quickly. And, you know, they were [01:09:15] very like, we will help you plan your wedding and if you want, we can do your premarital counseling. And [sighs and gasps] we were like, oh my gosh, here's this couple. They speak English and French. they are experienced, you know, they've been living cross-culturally even though they're from the same culture as each other. You know, it just felt like, oh, they were running like marriage courses at their church and stuff. So, we felt like, oh, here's some really mature, like super fun, lovely people that we could welcome into our circle as well. So we did accept you know their help in planning the wedding and [sighs] doing the premarital counseling and everything as well. >> How big is this town? Just for us to get [01:09:59] an idea. >> Our village is about 300 people. So it's a tiny village but that's sort of how Switzerland works. There's all these little villages. You know you're you're close to a city, you're close to a bigger town, but our little village is 300 people. >> Yeah. you see E andR regularly and and I know Yeah. So so everybody kind of knows what everybody's doing within this village. Yeah. Okay. >> Yes. Yes. It is like a Swiss Gilmore Girls here like >> as [snorts] that relationship grows. You mentioned that they did premarital counseling. What is that journey like for you? >> I mean they had this program that they were sort of following from some I think it was like maybe a church in the UK. I [01:10:42] don't know. And so every week we would meet and chat through stuff. And was the week when we were going to be talking about sex and for two purity culture, you know, young people, we were like, you know, sex. This is going to be crazy. Trying to be like super cool about it though, you know, like, oh yeah, I totally don't mind this. Whatever. And so they had planned on the week that we talk about sex that, hey, we're going to breed our dog. We want our dog to get bred. And so why don't we go all together? It's sort of like an hourish away. Maybe we'll go together. We'll talk through the course questions. We can do that on the way and then we can chat about it on the way back. You [01:11:24] know, we were like, "Cool. This is great. It's totally fine." And so then we get to the place and they're like, "Okay, so you know that breeding dogs, you know, sort of can be similar to whatever." They're just talking about sex and they're telling us how this dog breeding works and they get stuck together and they sort of like as they're talking through the things around sex, I don't even remember what it was. We had to sort of sit around in a circle around these dogs that are stuck together after being bred by their genitals. And they were sort of laughing cuz I mean I was a little uncomfortable. Silon probably always looks uncomfortable with that sort of stuff. [01:12:06] We just were like, "Okay." But also trying to be like, "Play it cool. It's fine." You know, no big deal. And they were sort of just like laughing about it and, oh yeah, you guys, it's just sex, you know, whatever. And it was just something that for me looking Well, even then it felt weird. Looking back, it feels quite inappropriate because they were in this sort of mentorship leadership relationship while we were friends. The thing with WWAM is there's no boundaries. WWAM doesn't have boundaries. Doesn't encourage boundaries. It's all life. Life is all ministry. Ministry is all life. You know, this sort of idea. So, your friends can be your leaders, can be your pastor, can be your mentor, can be your babysitter, can you know, everything's very intertwined. So, it was just one of [01:12:50] those things where I was like, this just play it cool. You just got to be cool. And now looking back, I'm like, whoa, that I feel like that was quite inappropriate. you know, we just brushed it off and moved on. You know, we're like, "Okay, these people are cool. They love us. I guess they just, you know, didn't mean anything by it, so we just have to be okay." >> I I did premarital counseling and I don't know how I believe about or think about that now. And we went through a workbook and you watched dogs having sex. So, I would say yes. Wildly inappropriate. I guess looking back like what the hell was that even for? like it it just seems so wildly inappropriate to even to even do that. [01:13:33] >> I will add on Were they concerned you guys didn't have like basic like anatomy classes or something? I mean, your husband's a farmer, so your fiance's a farmer. It's not like he hasn't seen this go down before. Like, I'm just curious like >> did they tell you why? >> I don't remember if they did. They might have. I have no idea. I it was so long ago now that I can just remember how I felt in that moment and that it felt like, oh, this is a good opportunity for us to be able to chat in the car, you know, we needed the time to talk through the stuff, plus we'll link it with sex because great, here we go. We're breeding our dogs and that it was a sort of oh haha, don't be a brood, you know, [01:14:17] sort of like this is fine sort of vibe. So that's that's all I can remember about it was just that feeling that stuck with me. It also is kind of just like a bizarre way to talk about sex in marriage because it like sex and marriage is not meant to be like this like animalistic thing. It's supposed to be like through connection and safety and mutuality and that's not what it's like when dogs are being bred. So anyways, that's like a weird intro to sex for you guys. There's a very common sort of theme at least I would say in my experience in why I'm Europe of this sort of and you see this I think in the young restless reformed vibe you know [01:15:01] I've got tats and I go drink and I smoke cigars and like that's the cool thing and so there was definitely that sort of like you just have to play it cool otherwise you're on the out if you want to be in the in crowd if you want to advance in any sort of leadership space you have to be cool with this stuff. >> Okay. Well, let's go on because [laughter] we're not done. No, but it' be something exciting happened in 2012. You get married. You've already touched on being a person of peace in a why. But if you could explain just a little bit more about that comes up a little bit more, people of peace or person of peace. What What is that? Can you describe it? I know you talked about it briefly. And then how did that put [01:15:44] pressure on you and your husband as both newlyweds? >> Yeah, I think it was definitely that pressure of we need to be like showing our faces at village events because everybody knew I was part of WWAM. Sil is like a little bit of somehow like a local celebrity. I don't know. Like he is amazing and people just love him and so I became like the weird oddity like the foreign woman. Oh, Silan married an American. Like why? So there was this sense of okay like we have to yeah sort of give a good face to towards the village from YWAM you know and and I was [01:16:27] learning French you know that was something that was also being encouraged at the base at the time thankfully finally that we should speak French. So there was a lot of that pressure of us to sort of be that happy face between the farm and WWAM. So Silon is involved in village politics. He is involved in like local volunteer firefighting. And so there was a lot anywhere where there was tension about that. You know, people would ask him questions about WWAM, it was sort of like yeah, he had to answer in a way that shown WA in a good light. And does he own his parents are still running the farm in 2012, right? >> Yes, at that point his parents are still running the farm. [01:17:10] >> Okay. And what what is your role in 2012 at YWAM? >> So I was leading the humanities and science courses. It's something that I wanted to do. I loved that course. So I was doing that and we got married at the end of 2012. I think the beginning of 2012 was the first one that I ran at the base. uh was doing that and then I was personnel director as well. So I was taking in you know applications and working with people who wanted to come on staff and sort of talking them through that process and running them through that process in conjunction with the leadership team plus just you know general sort of taking care of the building and we ran seminars a lot so it was welcoming in teams and hosting and [01:17:56] and that sort of stuff. >> So this is a big chunk. We're going to take a we're going to take a jump now forward and cover a 5-year span here in a couple questions from 2012 to 2017 cuz there is a lot that's going on. You start having kids and you you well walk us through that. You know, when did when did you guys start having kids? What was that like for you? And then I if you could really touch on how WWAM treated that as far as leaving to take you know leaving mothers who who get pennile leave or fathers even what was their thought there? What did that look like? And then and then reflecting like how do you feel about that now? >> We got pregnant rather quickly. You know I was like 30 31 at this point. We [01:18:39] didn't know how long it would take us. So we're like let's jump in and I sneezed and got pregnant. So, you know, the legally we're allowed sort of like I think it's 14 or 16 weeks of maternal leave in Switzerland. And at that time, I don't think fathers maybe had any, but you know, the the base was super on board with that. The leadership at the time was totally fine. So, I had, you know, my first kid and then I had a year of postpartum depression and that was rough. It was sort of, you know, in that period, like you said, in that period, I had a second kid, you know, and another year of postpartum depression. So, as I'm juggling sort of a child, you know, a baby, postpartum depression, and then eventually a baby [01:19:22] and a toddler and postpartum depression, I was allowed my time off for maternity leave. We were already considered sort of an anomaly because I was YM staff, but Sylvan was not. So, we were renting an apartment from WWAM, but we had to pay more because Silon wasn't WWAM staff, and that was fine. We were like, okay, fair. I guess it was still this we were encouraged to bring your kids to work. It was a sense of we want you as part of the community. We don't want you to be separated from the community. So, if you want to work, then you can totally work. In fact, we'll facilitate [01:20:05] that for you. You can bring your babies to staff meeting. You can bring them to worship. We're we're a family organization. You know, we want families involved, which is not the case in every base, but here it was. You know, lots of the leaders had kids. So, that was a very, you know, that was a bigger thing. But it was like, yeah, we'll have a meeting at your house, you know. And so, there were times where my kids are napping. I would schedule meetings while my kids were napping. I have postpartum depression, you know, I'm I'm leading things. I'm leading groups of people. I'm leading logistics, you know, whatever. Having meetings in my house, and then my toddler and my baby wake up and they want to be fed, and I'm in the [01:20:47] middle of a meeting or someone's crying or we're praying, and it's, you know, shh, no, you have to be quiet. We're almost done. You know, we're almost done. And so, it was this weird sort of, yeah, we want to welcome you. You're welcome here. come lead stuff, come take on responsibilities, you can have flexibility, but there wasn't ever this sort of encouragement of, hey, you just had a baby. You're in postpartum depression, girl. Maybe you should like not work. Like, but for us again, especially, it was different because Silon wasn't a YWAM. He wasn't on staff. And so when there was couples on base that had families, they were okay as long as [01:21:32] between the two people, someone between the two people, 100% hours was getting done. You know, 40 hours, 60 hours, 40 to 60 hours was getting done between the two people. You could split that whatever way you wanted. If the husband was going to work 100% and the wife was totally off, but I didn't have that option because Son wasn't on staff. And so there was extra pressure for us to maintain our apartment. Also for me with my visa at this point I knew being married to Son eventually I would be okay. But there was there was this pressure of you have to come back to work and bring your kids and you can't be like you know what I'm not going to lead this thing. You always had to lead [01:22:14] something. Always had to lead something. And so but it was framed in this really sort of loving language of we want to love you. We want to make space for you. We want to make space for your kids and your family to be part of the community. And I don't have I would say there's there's almost nothing that I regret in my life like choices that I've made. But I deeply regret not taking those years off and not pushing for that space to just be with my kids because they suffered and we suffered because of it. And there was never a conversation of, "Hey, how about you just don't work? That's okay." It was like, hey, how can we make space for you to work with your family? So that's sort of what was going [01:22:57] on in those 5 years, you know, leading all sorts of shenanigans, feeling stress and pressure to perform, otherwise we could lose our apartment, otherwise I could maybe lose my visa. >> So during all of that, you ask R and E, this is the premarital couple that you are on the space with, to be your kids's godparents. >> Yes. for our daughter. >> Yes. So before 2017, how would you describe that relationship and then something happens that kind of changes things? Can you walk us through that? >> So through all of this, you know, we had kept developing a friendship, a relationship. What I would have said was a very close friendship. I would have [01:23:41] said that E was one of my best friends. We were, you know, her and I would travel together. we would work together. We were sort of like, it felt to me like we were sort of like a duo. We had sort of been invited into their inner circle. There was definitely an inner circle. Only certain people were allowed in and like you wanted to be in it, you know, that was sort of the like if you got chosen. There was a lot going on in their lives and in our lives. You know, we I thought that we were really close and we were so close that when our daughter was born, we asked them to become godp parentents for her because we wanted people that we thought that their parenting ethic was really sound. [01:24:26] We were like, they're here long term. You know, they've been here 20 years. They're going to be here, you know, forever. We want the people to be genuinely involved in our kids' lives. And so, yeah, we had asked them to be our daughter's godp parentents and, you know, they accepted and we're really like intentional about it. We want to pray about it because we want to be intentional. We want to make sure that, you know, this is a relationship that we're able to take on, that we're willing to take on and actually be present. In Switzerland, it's a little bit more of a thing than maybe in the States, like to have, you know, godparents. So, yeah, it it felt like we were just getting closer and closer, you know? me and E had started to travel and do some work together like doing [01:25:09] debriefings for other YWAM, you know, centers. There was always questions like I could see what I can now describe as like love bombing like new people or even like in one on one trip work trip that me and E were on. My daughter was like 9 months old and she got pneumonia [clears throat] and had to go into the hospital and we were in Germany and I was like I need to go back and she was like no you don't. It's going to be okay. Your husband's there. He was sick though. He was super sick. You know, she was like, "You don't need to go back. You don't need to stress about this. Everything's going to be okay." And I let her convince me to not go back. Another thing I regret. Um, so there was beginning to be some of these things where I was starting to get concerned [01:25:52] just even about them and how they were and what they were going through and how that was affecting them and and their choices and how they cuz they were sort of back on leadership and yeah, I thought we were really good friends. >> All right, so we have a situation now. This is where the story starts to pivot a little bit. R& relationship begins to shifts and changes. RS's dad passes away and he is going to then convince the base elders, hey, I'm gonna I wanna I want to lead. So, walk us through that. Why why you why did he want to lead? Was that something that you that you were aware of? And then what is the trio and how was the trio formed? So what I remember him telling me and them telling [01:26:39] me from this time was yeah when ours dad passed he sort of came out of a fog that he had been in for several years and suddenly got super fired up and felt like he felt like God wanted him to lead the base is what I remember him telling me. He had begun to talk to the elders cuz he I think he had been the interim leader. Our previous base leader had left because his family was not doing well there. And so he was the interim leader and I think at that point he was like, "Hey, I think God wants me to lead the base." So he took that to the elder board at the time. Again, this is from what I remember him telling me. They [01:27:22] were very hesitant. They fought him on it. They thought he was immature and that he lacked the skills to lead a base, the organizational skills and and different things. You know, he's very pastoral, you know, very friendly, very sort of charismatic in that sense. And so they sort of thought about it for like 6 months, finally convinced them to allow him to lead the base, but under the condition that he lead in a team. So they were like, "Okay, we're going to create this trio. So, we're going to have three base leaders and then under those base leaders, we're going to have a leadership team. From what I remember, they had wanted E to be part of this [01:28:05] trio. She's very like type A, very organized, very get stuff done. I remember talking to her about it at the time and she was like, "Gh, I don't want to do this. I don't want to lead." And the next thing I know, she's like, "I've accepted and we're going to be leading together with this other person." I was very surprised. I was excited because I thought R was super visionary, super pastoral. The base had sort of been dying in a lot of ways, like losing staff. It was really hard to get students. It's a pretty common theme for YWAM across the world. There's some pockets that, you know, consistently do well, but the smaller bases just don't. They're just losing people. And so it was like, oh, maybe this can rejuvenate, [01:28:48] you know. But when E told me that she was also going to lead, I remember feeling concerned in that moment because I was like, well, she's a great manager and that's not I don't think what we need, but what do I know? I guess we'll just see how it is. You know, I was like, we're friends. I can keep checking in with her. >> Are you living next to them at this time, too? No, at this time we were living in a different way apartment sort of a couple minutes walk from the base. Yeah. >> How many staff members were there at this base at that time? >> Well, it would depend on how you count staff members. So, they would count people who didn't live in the village, [01:29:31] who lived maybe 30 minutes away and would come in for like the occasional staff meeting. So, I think living on base at the time, I don't know, there's maybe 10, 15 in the village. people that were like staff that were like fully around all the time was maybe maximum 10 students. It was at that time we were running a lot of seminars. We were welcoming in a lot of teams because we didn't have enough students really to run schools. If we were running a school it would be 3, four, five students max. >> Okay. >> So we were running a lot of seminars to bring in income. >> I know that we left you hanging there but do not fret. [music] Part two drops in the morning. Thank you [01:30:13] so much to Shelby for sharing with us and we look forward to sharing the rest of your story in the morning. With that, I'm Janna Harris for J Coyle and this has been the Bodies Behind the Bus podcast. [music] [music] >> [music] [music] >> The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed here are the speaker's own and [01:30:56] not those of this podcast. This content is presented forformational and educational purposes that constitute fair use, commentary, or criticism. While we make every effort to ensure that the information shared is accurate, we welcome any comment, suggestion, or correction of errors., Shelby's Story / YWAM / Switzerland / Pt. 1, Janna Harris and Jay Coyle (The Bodies Behind The Bus), 01m3cy9jme7jb0pyg03v7mg154.