Shelby's Story / YWAM / Switzerland / Pt. 2  🔗 **Source:** [Shelby's Story / YWAM / Switzerland / Pt. 2](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VY_7nwZMgOw) [00:00:00] Bodies Behind the Bus exists to create a space for survivors to tell their stories and to make sure those stories are heard. But we need your support to continue this work. Your donations help us produce this podcast, care for the people who trust us with the stories, and continue the work of Sacred Wilderness. Please consider making a onetime gift or becoming a monthly supporter at sacred wilderness.org. Your support makes this work possible. I am all about blessed subtraction. There there is a pile of dead bodies behind the Mars Hill bus. And by God's grace, it'll be a mountain [00:00:42] by the time we're done. You either get on the bus or you get run over by the bus. Those are the options. [music] But the bus ain't going to stop. You either get on the bus [music] or you get run over by the bus. Those are the options, [music] but the best not. >> All right, everybody. Welcome back. This is part two of our conversation with Shelby talking to Sharon about her time with YWAM. If you have not listened to part one, please go back and do that right now or before you listen to part two cuz you're going to be really confused if you listen to part two first. So Shelby, welcome back to the podcast. [00:01:27] >> I'd like to jump in and I'd like to go back to the year 2018 and talk a little bit about where we left off our last conversation. We were talking about the TRIO, which is not a really cool and hip group that you follow on social media. It is something completely different. So the TRIO was formed as a leadership group and you start to have some concerns. you really start to be concerned with your interactions with E. Walk us through like why are you concerned at this time? What's going on that that brings up your that raises your your your intuition to be like uh something's not right here? >> Well, as I had said, I was super excited about these guys sort of all taking [00:02:09] over. I did have some initial concerns about E just because in my experience she was a bit more of a manager, you know, than a leader. Although I felt like I had learned a lot from her about you know like people matter, the individual matters and you know over the task or over the things so take time you know slow down. So I felt like I had learned some super valuable lessons from her. I was a little bit nervous but I was hopeful. However, rather quickly within sort of a six-month period of them taking over there was a lot of feedback. I was getting a lot of feedback in my various positions of leadership that I held at the time of [00:02:53] people being really shocked and even hurt and harmed in some ways from the way that she was sort of interacting with people. The sort of steamrolling people. I sort of kept defending her to these people, you know, and saying like, "Hey, you know, you got to go talk to her. This is so not their heart. This is not her heart. Just go talk to her. Got talk to them. talk to R as well. You know, it can all be worked out because they're such lovely, sincere people. They will for sure want to hear you out. Then the feedback I was getting from that was that people were not being heard out that they were sort of being rebuffed or told, you know, it was their pain, it was their issue, they had to deal with it in some way. People were [00:03:36] feeling really confused because that was very different from the ways that we had experienced E before. In my friendship with E, I had begun to see that she was getting really stressed. She was really busy. She was, you know, leading women's and children's ministry in her church and plus then taking over leadership of the base. There was a lot that was going on and there was a lot of high stress and I actually felt a bit nervous about approaching her about that directly. I had tried some small like hey are you okay and you know had just not gotten any real responses. So after sort of 6 months the the feedback became so loud that I actually chatted with R and I was [00:04:21] like hey I'm concerned about E like or herself as well and I shared my concerns with him. He was very like oh it's just cuz she's really stressed you know after this next big event that she does is over. Everything will be fine. You'll see you know it's just because she's stressed. And I was like okay let's try this. Spoiler alert it wasn't okay. It didn't get better. That was sort of my first foray into trying to chat to them and sort of try to raise awareness. Meanwhile, I just keep telling people like just go back to them, you know, Matthew 18, like just approach them first. Like this is not their heart. They care so deeply, but it just happening. >> So eventually there's a meeting in September of 2018. [00:05:05] Walk us through what went down in that meeting and your response, what happened. >> Right. So after my initial chat with R at the beginning of 2018 and just sort of again seeing nothing really changing and in fact it felt like stuff was getting worse because people were saying I'm going and chatting to them. I'm sharing my concerns. I'm pushing back and I'm just sort of being bulldozed, being dismissed, being gaslit in a lot of situations. And so I was getting more and more concerned. Seeing them as friends as well, seeing their stress levels rise, their sort of interactions within their family and and different stuff, things that you would sort of just be like, "Hey, you're getting too [00:05:47] busy. You're getting too stressed." And every time I would try to find an inn to chat to them, there was just this sort of dismissiveness or push back. So finally, I was like, "Okay, I am going to sit them down as friends, not even as colleagues. is I'm going to get all their favorite foods and wine and all this stuff and like prepare this chat as friends so that I can genuinely stop them and look them in the eyes and say, "I I am concerned about you and here's what I'm concerned about and we talk about this." We tried to get them to set up this meeting and it actually took six weeks for them to agree to see me which was very weird because we had been hanging out all the time. You know, we [00:06:29] were best friends and so I was super shocked that suddenly they didn't have any time for me and I was clear with them. I want to chat to you about some stuff. You know, I'm concerned. I didn't want to just leave them hanging and sort of ambush them. Finally, after some other really concerning situations, they agreed to sit down with me. They were like, "All right, we've got an hour. You know, you can have an hour." I had them over by this all the, you know, this was 6 weeks after my initial chat. So, there was no wine. There was no cheese. It was a shame. But we sat down is what I thought as friends. And I just shared with them. I said, "Look, you know, I'm really concerned. I'm hearing a lot of feedback." I felt like I positioned myself from such a place of like, I'm here as a friend. I'm here because I [00:07:13] love you and I care about you and I care about this base and I care about the people on it and I have some concerns. And I I felt like I came very gently, very cautiously. I was met with immediate defense. So R just sort of went really quiet, which is pretty common when he's upset and started just I don't know, writing on his phone. And he got very, you know, defensive and very like, well, why are you attacking us and who said what and give me I need details. I need examples. I need names. I need instances. And I was like, I can't. I have confidentiality. I can't just tell you all the things that people [00:07:55] have told me. And she's like, well, they should come to us, you know, in Matthew 18. And I said, they have. They have been telling me that they've been coming to you. And she's like, nobody's come to me with anything. And I'm like, that's just not true. But then there was this, you know, sense of, well, you're accusing us. You're attacking us. And I was so so shocked that this was the message that was being received, that I was coming to attack them, to malign them, to say all this untrue stuff and not give them any information. It was genuinely just such a shock. I can't explain it better than that. To be these people that I thought were my some of my [00:08:39] best friends. We had lived so much life it felt like already. You know, they were such a part of our lives and for them to just automatically go into a space of you're against us. You're attacking us completely unreal. I just I had I had no idea what was happening. And so E gets very sort of aggressive and animated and a little bit loud, you know, when she's upset. And so I'm just sort of shrinking more and more because also I am a little bit less than, right? I'm not leading the base. So yes, we're friends, but they're also my leaders and WAM has no boundaries. So it was this weird you're always trying to figure out what it's what's okay to say. >> Did your marriage counseling? [00:09:22] >> Yes, exactly. And they sort of put on the leader hats at that point. And I think they might have even said, "Okay, we're putting on our leader hats now." you know, sort of responded in this really, well, you have to tell us exactly who, how, when, and what. I think I might have shared like one story with them. And E was like, I'm going to go talk to that person and I'm going to work this out and all this stuff. Oh, it was terrible. It was terrible. So, that was my first big experience with them being like, okay, I'm genuinely clearly in love coming to confront you with concerns and being met with a wall. There was no space to understand. There was no questioning like, "Oh, maybe this could be like, oh my gosh, like we're so [00:10:04] sad that, you know, this has been happening or whatever." Like, there was nothing. >> What when you w when you walked out of that meeting, what did you think at that time? Like, how'd you process that? >> It was in my house, so they walked out, but [laughter] I was in such shock. I actually remember feeling my face sort of go numb because it was it was genuinely such a to my system. I would have never in a million years expected to have been attacked by them for me bringing these concerns. And everything just, you know, sort of goes a bit blank. But I do remember this feeling of I must have done something wrong. I must have not communicated in clear enough way with enough love in a [00:10:50] way that they could understand because I was also taught in my university program with YWAM [snorts] that communication we have to take a communications course and we're taught that if someone is not receiving your message it's essentially your fault. You're not communicating in a way that they can receive. And so this is what I'm operating under. I'm like well this is my fault. I have not communicated in a way that they could receive. And so I have to figure out what went wrong and I have to figure out how I can do better because I am nothing if not persistent. And I valued this relationship so much I couldn't just let it go. So that was sort of the feeling I was left with at that time. >> Okay. So you're all right. So this is [00:11:33] weird. So now eventually you start to defend them which I think is a totally natural response considering you think it's your fault in the conversation. So you start to defend them. It's not getting better and at some point they ask you to join the trio or to join leadership. You wouldn't be a trio anymore. You'd have to have another name for that. Walk us through what what that's like. Why like how did you get asked? What was your thought? How'd you respond? Walk us through that. Yeah. Well, the operational structure was that there was the trio in leadership and then they had a leadership team quote unquote underneath them. So, it was supposed to be were leading in a team [00:12:16] and at that point in time they had I don't know I think there was maybe one other person who was part of the leadership team. So, not part of the trio. The trio is the top dog and then the people underneath who sort of were the support leadership. So they wanted to grow that group and there were several new young people who had come to be on staff and it was so that was that meeting we had was in September of 2018 and then in by December of 2018 they had asked three new very new very young very inexperienced people to join this team. They expressed to me that it was for the [00:13:00] reason of wanting to train them. So they're not asking for peers to come and keep them accountable. They're they're inviting these people because they were malleable. And then they invited me to join the leadership team. I remember I went to E and I was like why? because you guys have done nothing but push back on me since you know for the whole year and like why do you want me to join and she had said well you know for sure one reason is because you're married to Son you know you're here long term and so we could see you you know sort of carrying on the legacy of the [00:13:43] base but also she was like that's not that doesn't mean you have to be like you don't have to take on that role simply because you're married to Silon and you know there's very like freedom in that. But she said you know we think that by joining the leadership team you'll sort of see behind the curtain like you'll you'll see how we make decisions and the way that that happens and we think that you will stop pushing back so hard. If you just see how the cake is made, you'll be happy. And I thought that was odd. And I was within myself. I was like, I don't want to join. I don't want to join. But being, you know, the uber spiritual YWM person [00:14:25] that I was, of course, I took it back to God. And I was praying and reading my Bible. And at some point, I quote unquote felt that God said, you know, yes, you can join and I will be with you. Now, I would say that was probably just partially my own sense of hopelessness and feeling like maybe I can make a difference from the inside, quote unquote, from the inside. So, I joined. But it was interesting because they wanted to make the announcement at the staff Christmas party and I said, they asked just before and I said, "Well, I need some time to think and pray about this." And they didn't want to give me time. They're like, "We want to make the announcement at the party." [00:15:08] And I'm like, well, I mean, I'm super happy for you, but I need more time. And E was very upset about that because it ruined her plans. And she was like, well, we're going to announce the other people anyways because they've accepted and you can just take whatever time, you know, but you have to let us know by the first week of January or something. So I did, but I missed the big announcement, you know, and that even that choice of the the people that they chose to invite to the leadership team was very other people in the community raised a lot of eyebrows because these were all just new young people, passed over, much more mature, experienced people who had been there longer. So was already a little bit like, okay. So yeah, I did I did join in January of 2019. [00:15:53] >> I have a question for you. So, in the aftermath of your September meeting up until this point, would you say you're kind of just like locked in like one foot in front of the other? You're kind of defending them. Is there any part of you during that that's starting to think, "Oh my gosh, there's a pattern here." Like people that other people have experienced this and I've never experienced it and this is what people were talking about. Did that start to rise up in you at any point during that time? >> Not really. It was still very much this deep sense of I need to find a way to communicate to them better. And I kept trying. I kept trying. I kept pushing back. And so it was just still this this [00:16:38] complete disbelief for me that they would just outright reject whatever everybody was saying. >> That's helpful. So you joined this leadership team. Can you walk us through like what you what you guys are doing on this leadership team? What's YWAM doing out there beginning of 2019? >> Yeah. What are you doing specifically? Because I remember in 2019 like you you were doing something you really liked and then our thought well maybe you should be doing something else. So walk us through that as well if you can. So at the time I was leading this course that was called the basic leadership program which was a way for us to invite people to come and be staff at the base but using a student visa. So we created [00:17:22] this whole quotequote leadership program so that there was justification for them to come as learners but still be staff instead of doing a second level school with YWAM. So I was leading that group of people through this program that I created and I was you know still trying to lead like humanities and science courses which is part of the University of the nations and then I was part of this leadership team. I was still leading personnel. Let me just say that seeing behind the curtain knowing how the cake got made did not bring me any relief. In fact, it just upped my angst and anxiety. And yet, I was still under this belief that we can make this work. [00:18:08] There's more people than just me and ENR. There's other people here in the room, a few that are much less mature, less experienced, but some who were mature and experienced. And if they would also speak up, then maybe we can be heard. things within a leadership team just got more and more tense and it was very hard. It was very frustrating because there was just there was this constant tension. At some point R pulls me aside and sort of like I don't know I can't remember exactly when in 2019 he pulls me aside and starts to ask what I'm thinking for the future and I said you know I'd love to do more member care stuff because my background training was as a counselor and I would like to do more of that and do more to help people [00:18:52] live well. And you know I said I'm I'm working with this basic leadership program. It's called the BLP. We love acronyms in YWAM. I said, you know, I need to finish with this cycle. It's not something I want to be doing forever, but I do want to finish with this group and then if we can, you know, see who God brings in to lead it and in two years, you know, let's see. I just go about my life like living it up. And then this woman arrives on the base and she starts telling people that she is there to lead this program that I am currently leading. And I was I was like what? Everybody was like what? Are you sure? And then the the people the [00:19:38] participants let's say I'm sure students is an accurate term the participants of this program were coming to me and like oh my gosh we're hearing that this woman is here to lead this this course. What's happening? And I was like, "No, no, no, no, no, no. For sure not. She must just be mistaken. There's no way on God's green earth that R& would have brought some new person in to lead this course without even telling me or discussing it with me or anything like that is beyond the pale. They would never, Spoiler alert, they did." So then I get pulled into this meeting with R because I'm like, "Can you They didn't even come to me to tell me ever. I had to go to them. and say, "Hey, this woman is talking about that she's here to leave this [00:20:22] course, that you guys recruited her. Can you please clarify?" And they were like, "Oh, yeah, we did." I was like, "Were you going to tell me?" And I don't remember any justification that they gave to me in the sense of, "Oh, we were going to tell you when." And in fact, I found out that E was going around and telling this woman, do not tell people, you are here to lead this course because we haven't sorted our stuff out yet and told the current course leader and the current course participants and everything. But this woman just I don't know, she didn't get the memo, but she was going around telling everybody that that's what she was there for. So when I confronted R about that, he said, you know, we are wanting to release you to [00:21:08] do more member care stuff. We want to release you into the things that you really want to do. I kept pushing back and saying, well, I've told you this is what I want to do for the next x amount of time and then I'm happy to pass it on. I mean, I was negotiating with him like crazy. I am happy to share this role with this person. She seems very nice. I am happy to work under her if you don't want me in this leader position, but you can't just kick me out of this group. And essentially, he was like, "Yeah, we can." It just I remember I was about to go into sort of a final meeting with him about this and I was so sick. I was so nauseous because every time going in was this fight. And having a conversation with R [00:21:51] was like you would go in so sure of yourself, so sure of what you understood and wanted to say and then he would sort of talk you around and like twist all of this stuff and sort of try to put ideas in your head that made you think were your ideas and like you just always left feeling a bit bamboozled. You're like, wait, what just happened? So, I was one of these meetings and I do not genuinely now attribute a lot of things like God said, but in that bathroom, [laughter] I was like, I can't do this anymore. And I felt God say to me, you do not have to follow them anymore. And I was like, cool. I don't know what that means. Cool. So, I went [00:22:33] into that meeting and he was like, you're out. And I was like, you're the boss. And he was like, wow, amazing. Good job for accepting my authority. So then I was going to I was meant to go on and do more member care stuff which also, you know, didn't turn out. >> It's amazing how like these types of leaders, authoritarian leaders, narcissistic leaders, I don't know what term you want to put there, the only time they're happy is when we agree to their insanity. That's it. The compliance is the only solution for them. I find this troubling in churches because that tends the more I do this, the more I'm like there is such a sickness. We have lost the idea. We are so far removed from how when I read [00:23:17] scriptures of how Jesus interacted and I don't even know you could say led the disciples but interacted with the disciples and taught versus what we think that is today. and hearing it in different contexts from different organizations like that rot goes back centuries and we're still living in it. I'm a I love history. So, you could probably argue that it goes back all I mean could go back as far as when Constantine decided he was a Christian. He's like, "I'm a Christian now." And people were like, "Oh, we have power. This is great." Maybe it goes back that far. Maybe it goes back further. But it just drives me wild to hear like him excited for you because you were just compliant. Oh, you're compliant, so I'm [00:24:00] happy now. In the meantime, your like entire job, humanity, worth is just being trampled on for no reason. I don't have a question there. I just wanted to say that. And so I do want to talk about though at some point in this year you decide to take to sbatical which I will applaud you since you almost died a few years ago that now is the time you take a sbatical. Shelby, you've earned a lot of sbaticals. So what led to that decision? Like how did you come up with you need to take a sbatical and then how did R&E receive that? Well, after the sort of, you know, removal of myself from that role, you know, they said, "Okay, do member care stuff. Give us a [00:24:44] plan, present a proposal." You know, I went through this whole process of doing that. Had a meeting with two other people on the leadership who were on the leadership team. Like, we sat cuz I was like, I don't want to do this in a vacuum. So, we chatted about what do we see as the needs in the community, that sort of stuff. E somehow heard that we had a meeting and flipped out on these other two women. You know, it just things got insane because, you know, E was like, "Well, I should have been at that meeting. Why? No idea. You never said you needed to be at that meeting." Stuff just started to get more and more banana crazy. And I had been sharing with several of the elders through this whole process from 2018 on, sharing concerns, you know, things like that. [00:25:27] And there was some new elders that had come in. And I mean, this one woman, she just sort of took a look at me one day after one of these weird conversations and was like, "Are you okay?" And I just burst into tears and, you know, was sharing with her about this. It was sort of like around that same time. It was the summer, I think, of 2019 where I began to feel like, you know what? I I'm becoming depressed. Like, this is taking a massive toll. Like, my voice was never heard. Constantly pushed back on. I had no autonomy. I was told I had a spirit of independence and a spirit of accusation. And we had this super crazy like repentance leadership meeting at [00:26:11] some point where R& like made us all sit in this room and they were like we all need to repent because the enemy is causing disunityity and and all this stuff and they didn't repent for anything. And so I'm just trying to make things up to repent because I'm like I don't know. And you know people are crying and it's terrible. And then at some point they like turned to me and were like you need to repent of like this this and this. You know I was like I don't think I do. But you know so stuff got crazy and I felt like I'm becoming depressed and I had been talking to some of these elders and and one of these these elders she said you know what I think you could really benefit from chatting to a therapist. And I was like, sign me up. So she did [00:26:54] connect me with this lovely woman who was also part of why I win but another base in our area. And in sessions, you know, with this woman, she was so validating. She was so supportive and and helping me process cuz I still at this point was like something is wrong with me. I am not maybe I am bitter. Maybe I have all these random spirits residing in my socks. I don't know. She was helping me just process that. And at some point, she said, "You know what? Have you ever thought about taking a sabatical?" She was sort of the one to help lead me into that. And then this other elder sort of supported me through that and [00:27:36] said, "You don't ask them. You tell them you're taking a satical." And so I did. And she supported me. She was there in the meeting with me. And so I think there was a sense of relief probably from their side like okay I'm gonna be sort of out and they were like great go for it that's cool. So that was in October of 2019 and I remained in therapy and then we were going to move into the farmhouse which is a big move for us cuz someone's parents had lived there up until this point and we needed to do some renovations. So January we started renovations and then the pandemic happens and that [00:28:20] was my sabbatical was during the pandemic. >> When you moved into the farmhouse R and E were were they your neighbors? Correct. >> Yes, that was something that was interesting in that move that yes they we have sort of a big courtyard driveway area that separates our two houses. Arie own their house and they live about 20 metersish away from us. Like the gardens share a a space like a fence this that yeah we would see them all the time. But at the beginning of my sbatical the therapist had sort of asked them not to contact me during my sbatical that I just needed space and freedom and they had said that they agreed. So in 2020, you're on your [00:29:05] spatle. First off, you're living everyone's CW dream. You're married to a farmer and you're living on a farm. Or it's actually WB. It's not CW. It's WB, right? When does spiritual abuse come across your radar? When do you start picking up on it and when do you start thinking, "Oh my god, like this may actually apply to my situation." Talk us through that. >> Yeah. So in my therapy sessions in in 2020 maybe especially I'm sort of processing through the things that were unhealthy and that sort of the language is being used. you know, this is really unhealthy leadership. This, you know, has sort of characteristics of narcissism, things like that. And so, I was, you know, feeling validated in my [00:29:48] therapeutic process that what I experienced maybe wasn't all my fault and yet there was just this little tiny bit of is there anything that you need to ask forgiveness for, Shelby? And so, I was going through that process. I obviously I was not speaking with ENR and these were still people who I had considered friends who had lived a lot of life with and wanted to see is it possible to salvage anything. And I felt in that time that the only way that would even lead an open door to salvaging anything with them was if I apologize to them for something. [00:30:34] And I did not want to be disingenuine. I wanted to say something real. I still to this day I'm like gh it really wasn't. So in the end it was May of 2020. We, me and my husband, invite ENR over so that we could chat to them. And I just said to them, [laughter] God, you know, I was like, I want to apologize to you. I think I started judging you at some point, you know, and I just want to say sorry for that. That was sort of it. I just I knew that I would I was going to have to give ground and take fault for something if there was any chance of us moving forward. You know, E is just balling with happiness. [00:31:17] Oh my god, thank you so much. That means so much to us. We've been so hurt. We've been and I'm like, what? Okay. But I'm like, it's fine. And they're like, can we be friends again? You know, can we hang out? And we were like very cautious, but we said we are open to the possibility of trying to recreate our friendship. And then I never heard from them again. So they were, you know, constantly having people over. They were very like hospitable would maybe be a generous word to welcome people and all that stuff. And we were not invited, which I we didn't invite them either. We were not like dying to renew this friendship. So it was shortly after that I think I [00:32:01] came across this article by someone who I now understand is a pretty prominent person in the sort of victim survivor advocacy space. And the article this person had written was about spiritual abuse. And when I read this article, oh my gosh, like the relief somehow in reading this and having language to express what I had been through, it was just like fireworks in my brain somehow. and and also sort of concerning because before I sort of chopped it up to oh these are sort of unhealthy behaviors [00:32:44] you know maybe not the greatest leadership sort of just you know unhealthy leadership practices and now I could say I'm reading my story in this article and the the language that's being used is spiritual abuse. So I am an enagram six-wing five and I was like hold my beer let the research begin and I just dived down this whole under like what is spiritual abuse? Is this actually what I experienced? Is this correct language to be using? Am I making too big a deal out of this? And I just sort of deep dive into this and that is how I began to sort of engage with the language around spiritual abuse and understand that that actually is what happened to me. So there was a lot [00:33:29] of relief in that. But at the same time whereas before our relationship had just been sort of like this tense okay maybe it's just dying this natural death now there's this element of hold up. This explains why this feels so much worse than simply a relationship dying a natural death. This explains why I'm having grommet triggers. Why I am getting nauseous every single time my phone goes off. Why I am getting nervous to sort of see them and I get this like sick feeling in my stomach. Why I'm struggling to sleep. Why I'm struggling to eat. It explained all of this which in some ways it needed to happen. I needed to have that language. I'm glad I did. But also, you sort of begin to [00:34:14] realize like the level of horror that you've experienced and you've been through. >> You're trying to name this. You're trying to come to terms with it. Walk us through that. How how are you doing with your marriage and how is this going with your relationship with your husband? >> It was rough. And you know, as I'm sort of gaining language to express what I had experienced more fully, there's implications to that. What does this mean for us? What does this mean for the farm? What does this mean for our other relationships? What does this mean for all of the strings that are attached to us? And then why women is on the other end for people we support, for friends, for someone's parents, you know, all of [00:34:58] this, all of these implications. And so Son and you know we've talked about this and and he's he knows I'm sharing this and he's so behind me now. But then it was this real sense of self-preservation and needing to preserve his livelihood which says a lot. I think that if you're afraid that your spouse speaking up and saying that she's experienced abuse could cause problems for your job because you're renting, you know, from WWAM, then yeah, I think that says a lot. So, he felt like he needed to stay quote unquote neutral. And that I think some part of [00:35:41] me understood because I also deeply wanted stability. I didn't want to bring more instability to our lives. And it was extremely painful for our marriage because it's okay. Well, I'm on my own. You have to be over there. You have to be hi, chatty, you know, shaking hands with them, chatting when they want to chat to you, all this stuff. And I'm over here reeling from this understanding as I'm getting more and more understanding of, you know, what's happened. So, yeah, that was painful. And I think just to help listeners understand the feeling of that, I think so often in situations where we see abuse happening in these [00:36:24] communities, people want to show kindness to everyone. But what they don't realize is if someone speaks up and says they're experiencing abuse and you're able to be in their the the alleged abuser's presence and feel completely fine with them or appear to be completely fine with them, then it looks like you're okay with them treating other people poorly as long as it's not you personally. And whether you think that or not, I think there's a lot more nuance going on under the scenes and there's a lot more ins and outs of how we exist as human beings in relationships. But at the end of the day, what that's communicating to the [00:37:08] most vulnerable person in the situation is I'm not worth you having a hard conversation or you confronting this. and these people feel safe to be around you because you are you are not going to hold them accountable for how they've treated me. And that's something that all of us have to wrestle with. And I think most of us who have been in church communities at one point or another have been in these situations where the the easy thing to do is just to smile and shake hands and move along. But by doing that, that is utilized by people who are abusive to to kind of cosign themselves and also to make it seem like, well, [00:37:51] that person that's saying that, they're your friend still or they're your spouse still, so they're they must be off their rocker. That person's just being extreme and they are bitter or angry or they have a vendetta against us. But see, even even her husband is fine with them. So, it's got to be her or even her their best friend is fine with them. I'm not saying this because I want to shame anybody. I'm just saying this is something that we need to understand is a tool that's used in abusive systems to further harm the most vulnerable people in the situation. >> 100%. And what's crazy is all of those things that you said, each of those [00:38:34] statements were said about me or to me. That was the thing. It's like, "Oh, well, you're just the crazy one. Other people don't feel this way." Look, yeah, your husband is still fine with us. Your friends are still fine with us. And that was used to sort of discredit me and my story as well to people who were trying to sort of keep them accountable, you know, elders and stuff like that because it was like, and that was the other thing is they're very well loved, not just here locally, but across Europe in the YW spaces. What that is also doing and you can tell me if this happened to you but what that's also happening usually with people who are expressing I'm experiencing abuse or harm that's being perpetrated by this person that [00:39:16] you're still in a relationship with. What ends up happening is usually the person who is perpetrating the harm is like I'm so sorry that you're being put in this situation. This this person's really really causing division here. And so then friends or spouses, they start looking at the person who's crying out for help as the problem because they're highlighting that something's not right. And it's messing up the flow of things. It's making things less comfortable. So instead of dealing with the person that's causing the harm, the person who's speaking up ends up being the one that's seen as the enemy. And it further [00:39:59] isolates victims of abuse from their community because their community is then being weaponized against them as well. Would you say that happened to you? >> 100%. Yes. Like that's that's textbookked because there was even like I was told by the elders at some point, you know, oh, they just they weep for you. They're just weeping for you. They're so sad that you're in so much pain. And I'm like, what? Yes. It's the the dissonance is intense. >> Yeah. Your pain is the problem, not what's causing your pain. >> Exactly. It's oh, there's something wrong with you. You know, you've got some unresolved [00:40:41] something poor Shelby. Yeah. And there's possibly people who will say that about me sharing my story as well. It's so sad and like that betrayal for so many people I speak to and I will say even for myself as someone who's experienced something like this and Jay I'm sure you've probably felt this in your own story too like that betrayal of your most loved ones being weaponized against you and being neutral to the harm you're experiencing. The wound for me was so much deeper than the actual like initial harm that was happening. But luckily, your story didn't end there. Your marriage didn't end there. You guys worked through some really hard, messy stuff. Is that still happening in [00:41:27] October when you're like, "Look, I I've reached my limit. I'm not coming back or did have had you guys kind of come together by October?" >> No, we are only just now coming together in 2025. However, at that time, yeah, I did decide by the time my sbatical was over, I was like, you know what? I am not going to go back on staff there. I was still very like, I think I want to be part of VWAM still, you know, I'm not sure what doors are going to open, but I'm trusting the Lord that he will open them. So, I made my notes and I went into a meeting with the trio. And what was interesting is before this, R came to knock on my door unexpectedly, unknown, and someone was like, "Can I come in?" And then, you know, there's [00:42:08] supposed to be a no contact rule, but I was like, "Yeah, sure." And he starts talking about all the things that I can do when I come back. I'll be allowed to do whatever I want and work in whatever space I want and all this stuff. And I was like, I don't know how to tell you, bro. I'm not coming back. So, I did go sit in that meeting and I just I said, you know, I was depressed. I have started healing. I'm really happy and I have made the decision not to come back on staff. And so this was the trio of people. R just goes quiet, gets on his phone. I have no idea what he's doing. They were sort of flabbergasted. It seemed like they were genuinely shocked that I was not coming back on stone. S the third leg of the stool, you know, [00:42:51] was like, I am so happy for you. Thank you so much for sharing that. I'm so happy you're finding your healing. Like just sort of like good for you. Love you on your way. No problem. And then Eve shares that she feels that I should before I go, I should give an apology and repent in front of the whole community for influencing the community against them, which one in and of itself is laughable, but two, 90% of the community had changed by that point. So almost nobody from like when I was there that was still there. Yeah. It was this thing like you need to repent and apologize for influencing the whole community against us. We really feel like this is important for you to do before you leave. And I was like what? [00:43:36] And then sort of speaks up and and he's like like 100% feel like that is what you should do like sure but also you need to do that. I was very much appreciated his sort of standing up for me and I was like no I will think about it. I'll take it back to my support group, but I don't think that's something I'll be doing. And she seemed sort of upset at that. And then I said, "You know what? I'm still a missionary. I'm still with YWAM. I'm just waiting to see what doors open." And she said, "Oh, I'm really concerned. It's very dangerous for you to do that to not be under a spiritual covering." I was like, "What do you mean, Jesus? My spiritual [00:44:20] covering." And she was like, "Oh, no. We've seen this with so many other people who, you know, left a YWAM community, left YWAM base, and they were just out there floating outside of the covering, God's covering, God's protection." And, you know, they really got harmed and we're just really concerned about you. You need to have a spiritual covering. And I was like, I'm okay. Thank you. And I left that meeting and I felt amazing. It felt really good to just be able to be like, "I'm done. I'm out." They asked. Yes. Yeah. They were like, "Do you want us to throw you a goodbye party?" >> But I had been on the in crowd before, right? And so I knew how they really felt about throwing these parties and [00:45:04] sort of honoring people who were leaving because and they and they didn't agree with them leaving. Like they either didn't like them or they, you know, asked too many questions or whatever. So, I declined. I did go into one last staff meeting and Eve was sort of like, well, we'll just have like two people pray for Shelby and then, you know, get her out. And then more people prayed, which was really kind, but it was like, let's just get her out. >> Did they ever like during this time, did they ever actually articulate how you were, I guess, turning people against them? Were they able? That's such a That's a big statement. So, did they articulate that at all? >> No, of course not. Because there was nothing. Yeah, >> I think they saw the other people who [00:45:48] were sharing concerns and some of those people, not all of those people, some of those people were on the program that I was leading and so they made an assumption that I was turning everybody against them, but I was defending them. >> So, in October of 2022, so this is nearly two years later, you eventually report ENR to leadership, right? But this is not just a at a you know I'm going to report them on a whim. I mean you're receiving stories right during this process. So walk us through what led to you you know reporting R& what did you report or ENR? What did you report? Why did you report them? And just set the scene for us. Unfortunately, there were just more and [00:46:31] more people who were being deeply deeply harmed by the base, the culture at the base, these leaders, the decisions that ENR made, the way that they interacted, and these people were not being heard. So, as with my background in counseling and healthcare, I would get random calls about various health conditions, you know, hey, I've got this thing. What do you think this could be? You know, people were getting genuinely sick. There was this one precious, precious woman who I she is giving me permission to share this story, but she it was pandemic. She was not doing well. She asked if we could chat. It was on [00:47:13] lockdown. I was like, "Let's go on a walk." Came around the corner. She was skeletal and she was throwing up everything she ate. She wasn't sleeping. She was crying in ENR's house every single day. They were telling her it's a desert season. You're not depressed. You know, God is lancing a wound that you just have to ride this out sort of thing and this is something God is doing. I had a few questions for her and I'm like, you are for sure depressed. This is not God. And they refused to listen because she had talked to me maybe, I don't know. They she shared that she had talked to me and they were very upset about that. So I took her to the doctor and that doctor chatted to her, took one look at her and said, "If you're not gone back to your home country in 10 [00:47:56] days, I will institutionalize you because you are so ill, like mentally, physically, everything." And you know what? I had her parents email me after and be like, "We sent her to you. What happened?" And I was like, "I'm so sorry." You know, I didn't I didn't know how. So stuff like that was happening. Sorry. Stuff like that was happening a lot more and I had tried to stay out of it because I didn't want to be accused of cleansing people shock and you know sort of just whatever but when people are coming and saying I need help I don't know what's going on. And the more that I was [00:48:38] learning about spiritual abuse and understanding the language, understanding the means, the methods, the ways, you know, what does this look like? How does this happen? What are the different sort of scenarios that you can apply this to? What's the difference between just unhealthy leadership maybe and spiritual abuse and the difference between spiritual abuse and other abuse and went down a very deep research with that one. It just the stuff get kept getting crazier and crazier. If you think my story is crazy, I feel like there's so many other victims from ENR whose stories are even crazier. And it came to a point where I said, you know what, think for myself. I think I feel safe enough now in my own healing [00:49:21] journey and everything that I I need to at least try to just pull somebody higher because the elders hadn't really done anything. They had tried to confront ANR and ENR always pushed back. Oh, it's those people's pain. It's their childhood trauma. I don't know. So I thought okay enr are on every single leadership team and group from here to the top in Europe. So I will go to the top in Europe and I did. So that was October of 2022. I connected with one of the top leaders in YW Europe and he had shared with me that I was maybe like the fourth or fifth person to report them. So he was super concerned. He was very empathetic. You know I shared my whole [00:50:04] story. couldn't function for three days after because I totally retraumatized myself and sharing all the gory details and he assured me he was going to do something about this. So I was like cool my part is done. I have shared there's other people who have already contacted him. Great. I shared with a few of people that I knew that had reported. They asked for his contact information so that they could report as well and I thought I was done. >> When was that? That was October October 2022. >> So, all right. So, all right. So, I don't know in the context. Does this get back to ENR then? Do they find out that they've that there's been or I guess do you know? I mean, there's four or five [00:50:48] people reporting. Does it get back to them before you have the contract dispute with them on the farm? >> Not. >> You don't know? >> No. the the person who I reported to, leader D, he was like, "Yeah, I'll look into it. I'll keep you posted, whatever." And I heard nothing else from him. And then D was January 2023 when really hit the fan. >> So January 2023, there's a situation to where the is this where the farm is up for the lease is up for renewal, right? Okay. And now now it's going to be it's going to be it's not going to be in Silven's family. It's going to be in his name, right? Is that correct? Okay. All [00:51:31] right. Good. >> Yeah. So, we were we were switching over. He was taking over from his dad. >> All right. I'm just going to say this as blunt as I can. What the hell happened? >> I'm still asking that question. So, [laughter] here we go. It was interesting because in October, right after I had reported, I got a text, a WhatsApp from E, which I hadn't heard from her in two years. And she said something like, you know, ill, do you ever think about how sad broken relationships are? Like I do, like maybe we should get coffee. There's no question. There's no like remorse. There's no, hey, I know you might not want to see me. I know we've not spoken for 2 years. you know, I've abandoned our job as godp parentents to your daughter. Nothing. And so I just ignore [00:52:15] it because I've learned I can do that now. Then January, early January, so someone had been asking them for the farm contract because we're switching over from his dad to him in January of 2023. And so for 9 months, he'd been saying, "We're going to need this contract." You know, they were like, "Yes, absolutely. We're so happy for you guys to take over. This is great. They wrote about us in the newsletter. You know, they had our picture. Everything was great. So, he's we're getting down to the wire of legally he needs this contract so he can complete the legal process. And sort of like a few days before everything went wild, I got this email from E and it was [00:53:00] like, "Oh, I heard that you're doing member care stuff. Really happy for you. like maybe we just won't be in relationship or something. I don't know. I know you don't need my blessing, but I give it to you, you know, release you, whatever. And oh, it was like, oh, I'm sorry if you were hurt by things I did. You know, like one of those sort of apologies. There was some sort of weird accusation in there. But overall, I was like, this is weird. This feels some sort. But again, I just ignored. I was thinking like, should I respond? She didn't ask for a response. She was just like, I bless you. Bye. Ciao. Bye. So then a few days after that, R approaches Son while Sylvan is milking the cows in [00:53:42] the evening and Son's like, >> "I'm sorry. >> I'm sorry. I I mean milking the >> Yeah, [laughter] >> she actually appropriate." Really milking the cows. >> He's milking your husband's out. He's milking the cows. There we go. So, all right. Go ahead. Continue. >> Yeah. So he's he's working, you know, he's in the midst of running around working and R approaches him and Silon thinks, "Oh, maybe he's just coming to give me the contract or something." And R says, "Hey, I need to talk to you about the contract." And he says, "We are we don't have peace to sign the contract until Shelby sits down for a process of reconciliation with us." And Son's like, "What? [00:54:27] You have 9 months to do this?" and I'm milking and I can't deal with this. What? And AR's like, "Yeah." You know, it's just we just really don't have peace about signing this contract, you know, because there's tension between the farm and the base and that makes some sort of like damage in the spiritual realm. And Son's like, I can't deal with this right now. So, he comes in and tells me and I start freaking out because I have known all along why women is going to come for us. They're going to come for the farm. And this is why Son was like, I have to be neutral because I just have to protect this somehow. And that's how he felt like he was going to protect our livelihood, his passion and his joy. That's he loves being a farmer. And if he doesn't have that, that's a big thing, right? Farms [00:55:11] are not there's not a lot of farms around here to be had. So he is in this neutral state. And now he's like, "Well, that was worth nothing because now they're trying to hold the farm contract hostage." So he comes and tells me. I start freaking out. I call a friend who is in WWAM and whose husband is in like pride leadership positions and they know everything and they've been horrified this whole time. You know, they're just like this is terrible. You know, they've been trying to bring accountability and sort of report R& as well. And so, bless I tell them what's happening. This guy gets on the phone, starts calling everybody, the legal team, the YM leadership. And so we felt really supported in that moment, but it was it was such a shock for us. Silvin tried to [00:55:55] infirm with them like are you is this like he tried to give them an out like maybe I misunderstood all of this stuff. They're like no no like we just really don't know peace about signing this until Shelby sits down for a process of reconciliation. And he's like okay this is a legal contract that I need. And so if you are saying that the contract is conditional and shall be sitting down for a process of reconciliation, we are going to have legal problems. If I misunderstood you and you're not saying that it's conditional, then please just sign the contract and send it to the house. No contract. So it was conditional. They had got Son's parents involved before. They didn't tell us like they sat down with Sylvan's parents to be like, "Will you pray with us because we're just so [00:56:37] grieved of this division between the farm and the base?" And it was really gross because then our parents kept that from us. They didn't warn us this was coming. They had deep concerns that they shared with RN but RN were like no this is a spiritual matter. So yeah in the end that really kicked off I think the investigation for them because then the the leader D that I had reported to he got pulled into the situation because this was now a very messy legal matter if they didn't comply. So that sort of I think started this investigation into ENR's leadership. >> Did ENR have the power to hold up the contract? >> No, that's actually something we found out after was that no, they did not have [00:57:20] the power to sign or not sign it. Had to be done by the legal team. So the legal team was like, "Oh my gosh, please please keep farming the farm. Here's the contract. Please sign it. We're so sorry." So yeah, there was this weird I don't know why they thought that they were the final say, but >> All right. So when did this happen? You find out during this time or before this or close to this, right? Enr sent on a spatical, but then you also find out your story is one of 13. Is that right? 13 that were sent to leadership. >> I I personally knew of 16 other people who had had the similar concerns and it had kickstarted this investigation. And so leader D was like, "Okay, we need to [00:58:06] sort of collect stories and evidence." And he already had several. I don't know how many he had, but he had several. And I think the one thing he did really well in this process was he actually held confidentiality cuz he was pushed from every single angle to give up the names of the people who had reported to him. And as far as I know, he didn't. And so that was a really firm line that he held. but he was not based in Switzerland. He was based in another country and so he tried to bring in another person of peace they said to sort of collect victim stories. So we poured out our blood again for this other person thinking that this was going to bring change. So R& sort of put [00:58:50] on this quote unquote 3 to six month sbatical while the elders here sort of investigated. That was rough. That was really, really rough because we kept pouring out our story again and again, many of the victims. So, I mean, my mental health was trashed. My physical health was trash. Like, I thought I was done with all of this stuff. And then now it's like I am being told that I am, yeah, causing division or that I have all these different spirits floating around and I'm not being believed. And I think Johnny, you said something earlier that was sort of like, yeah, there's the initial like horrible thing that happened, but what was much more traumatizing and much more damaging was [00:59:34] not being believed. So the people who were supposed to support us, who were supposed to hold these guys accountable, we were maligned, we were gas lit, we were dismissed, we were invalidated, we were told we're the problem. And that I think was so much more damaging than the original abuse itself. But we kept pouring ourselves out because we wanted to see change happen. And I can speak for myself genuinely. I wanted R& to come back to the people that I knew them to be that I I thought they were loving and caring and warm and compassionate and good at what they do. And this was the most baffling thing. It was like, how can they just not be curious about what so many people are saying? They [01:00:19] won't even allow for the tiniest smidgen of maybe the tiniest piece of this could be true. They just constantly, it was just darbo, you know, the defend attack, reverse the victim and offender all the way. So 2023 was rough in that sense trying to be part of this investigation and figure out how many times you have to tell your story for you to be believed, for you to be heard. But I was also part of this member care resource team which was a really supportive group. Really had a lot of a great creative outlet that I could teach and I could train and I could be doing all my member care stuff with those guys. And that was a real lifesaver in that time was to have this group of people who stood behind me who [01:01:03] also super horrified were trying to do what they could do in whatever capacity they could. >> Yeah. And I think like it's interesting like in these spaces when we see investigations it's almost like the investigations are put well I shouldn't like when it's a qualified third party the investigation you know for the most part is legit but when we're doing these you know our own investigations it's almost like the investigation is to how can we disprove this so how can we protect ourselves and if that means disproving or or convincing victims that yeah you don't want to continue or you you you don't really know what you're talking about. It's more of like, and this is me saying like harassment or manipulation. You already come in with a preconceived notion and it's just sad. I [01:01:47] mean, I can imagine that that's really done a lot of damage to your mental health even probably now. So, it's just it's upsetting. Okay, so now we're we're in 2023, but you you get a chance to go to a conference with some of the new people that you've been working with and you're actually looking forward to it. And you know, and in this timeline that we're talking about right now, you know, ENR are on sbatical. You're not near them. You're on a conference. Like, you're away. You've shared your story so many times. I would imagine you're thinking this is a chance to to decompress and breathe a little bit, right? Is that what your thought was? >> Yeah. >> Did that happen? >> No. Yeah. It it was this time period where ENR were under investigation for abuse. [01:02:33] There was over 10 victims who had shared their stories with various people at that point. So then there's this global leadership conference that YWM does every so many years and it's like an invitation only 700 of the world's top leaders are to come to this conference. It was going to be in Thailand and I was so excited. I love Thailand. I was going with a colleague, you know, I was really passionate about trying to see change come to WWAM and trying to see us talk about these hard things, talk about spiritual abuse, talk about what this looks like, talk about the unhealthy [01:03:16] patterns that we have in WWAM and the things that, you know, that we perpetuate that that make this happen and theologies and different things. I was super hopeful and super pumped to be going to this conference and we get to the conference. I see ENR this conference in Thailand and I'm like what the hell? And I found somebody and I was like what? And then my colleague as well is like horrified like oh my gosh how are they here? They're literally under investigation. I spoke to several top people in member care in leadership at the conference. I spoke to leader D who was at the conference as well and I said how are they allowed to be here and he was sort of like well I mean yeah it's f [01:04:01] I could not get a straight answer is sort of a long story I had I'm not going to say they were following me but they wound up at the like same lunch table that I was going to be set sitting at with my stuff and it was like I cannot do this. So I had a massive massive trauma response trauma response and I got super super ill. So I missed the whole conference because I was so ill. I was I was so disappointed. But me and my colleague, we had planned another 4 days in Thailand. We're going to have a little holiday. Great. Whatever. Leave the conference. Bye all you people. We go have our four days. I'm sick. It's just terrible. So sick. And then I go to get on the plane back home and I get to [01:04:45] the gate at the airport in Chiang Mai, Thailand. And who's there at the gate? But ENR. And I'm like, you have got to be kidding me. I'm texting my colleague. I'm like, I am in trauma response. I don't know what to do. And she was like, just avoid them. You It's going to be fine. You can talk to the gate agent and tell them you're a witness in an abuse investigation and your perpetrators are on board and you can't be sat next to them. I get onto this flight where I'm like, what are the chances? There's none chances I will just sit in my chair and close my eyes and they will pass me and all will be fine. And I get a tab on the shoulder and I open my eyes and E and R are standing right there and they were sitting in the seats next to me. [01:05:29] And I'm like, I will die. I will die. I don't know how to deal with this. So I'm just like, it's fine. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. And I just go into full like I'm like if my mouth I will vomit on them. She tries to engage me at some point on the flight. It was like tap tap tap. I take out my earbud. She's like, "I'm so sorry about this. This must be really hard for you." And I'm like, "Yeah." And she's like, "Oh, this whole process has been, you know, so hard for." And I was like, "I'm going to stop you right there. We don't need to talk about this. This is not the time and place to talk about this." So I traveled back from Chiang Mai, Thailand to Geneva, Switzerland with my abusers. I did I did go to the gay agent and had [01:06:11] her make sure that we were separate on all the flights, but it was the longest trauma response. >> All right. So you get back home. When do you share your story with that group of elders? Is that before this trip? >> That was after. So at the up until this point, the elders as a group had not contacted me, not asked me for my story. They sort of were very much taking ENR's side of things. And when I got back from that conference, they finally did reach out. Well, one of them reached out and was like, "I haven't slept for three days and I feel like the Lord is telling me like we need to talk to you and ask your story." So, I said, "Okay, I'm not going to [01:06:57] tell it to just one of you though. I need to tell it to all of you so that we don't play this telephone game." And so, I did. I had them all over to my house with their permission. I recorded it and for the next three hours, me and Son shared our story. And you know there was various sort of some push back some oh my gosh we're so sorry we had no idea I just couldn't function for 3 days after again like it just was so it was so rough but you know we're like okay this maybe this is positive this was the point where one of the elders had been like oh like e is just weeping and weeping over this situation for you like she's just so sad for you and I'm like oh that's so and then this This elder [01:07:41] actually kept she cornered me and she put her arms around me like can I give you a hug and I was like no but she put her arms around me she kept me there and she was like will you please please let us give this recording to E and R so that they can understand because they just don't understand they just don't get it they just don't understand they they have no idea what you know anybody's talking about and this could really help them understand and I'm like no you cannot give this to Ian it was the most just you know locked in this embrace with this tiny old woman. So, yeah, I was like, fine. Shared the story to them. It's done. That's That was October 2023. >> Okay. So, we're now in 2024 and and I mean it's just I feel so sorry because I [01:08:26] think it's probably not uncommon with people in these spaces who just it spans decades and they've just experienced so much and you're fighting like hell to kind of make sense of everything and another advocate kind of comes in or positions themselves in this space to to help you or help those, you know, who was this person? Were they qualified for that? What was your relationship with them? This is interesting. When did you had stories but WWAM decides this is not abuse right? So if you could bring us up to that like there's another advocate that's brought in and then WWAM makes the decision that oh yeah this isn't abuse bring us up to there. >> Yeah. So yes this advocate person C comes in and sort of no this person [01:09:12] wasn't WWAM. It was I thought that she was a therapist, but she actually wasn't. But we were many of us were sort of operating under the understanding that she was. From my understanding, it was she had some sort of other qualifications and helping people heal from like burnout and work or something like that. But we thought she was a therapist, but she wasn't. So, but she is very much she hears three of our stories and she is just fiery and passionate about like this has to stop. This is absolutely not okay. So she confronts the YWAM Bertsy elders and you know everything like this is crazy, this is abuse and they were like this isn't enough stories. It's only three people. So she gathers uh 13 stories. Okay, well [01:09:59] here you go. And so from what I understand, she sort of like pushes and pushes and pushes and pushes until Wim has to say like okay fine. We will do an apology meeting for the victims. So at this point, if I'm remembering correctly, ENR is still just sort of on an indefinite sbatical. So there's nothing that sort of has been done definitively, but she has a lot of plans. She arranges this apology meeting for the victims, not all the victims. She got very choosy about which victims could come which I thought was very red flag but some of the victims and YWAM Swiss so YWAM French speaking Switzerland Ywam Burton and then YW Europe so sort of these different levels [01:10:44] and several of our advocates that had been in that space. So we have this we have this meeting and it's a bit meh like it's a bit of a mixed bag. They keep praying for the offenders not like the victims. They keep praying for WWAM, not the victims. There was only one person who was representing the Swiss, like the French speaking part of Switzerland, who actually used the word abuse. Nobody else would use the word abuse. Sort of a mixed bag. This advocate sort of, I don't know, went a bit off the rails. I don't know if we need to go fully into that, but it sort of ended this. I had decided, okay, I am going to be done. I'm going to leave WWAM. seeing how much even this woman had to push and essentially force WWAM into giving the even the half apology [01:11:27] that they did. You know, we had asked for compensation for therapy and medication. We had asked for a public apology. We had asked for an update on what was happening to ENR. None of which we ever received. Yeah. So, I I had decided, I think it was January of 2024 where I said, you know, I'm going to leave YWAM. But I was still working with my really lovely team, the member care resource team. And I was really sad to feel like I needed to leave. But I felt like I could no longer associate with an organization that refused to acknowledge deep abuses that were happening because unfortunately the story that was happening in Berts was one of multitude, legion, if you say. And in my role as a [01:12:11] memberare provider for YM Europe, I knew where many of the bodies were buried and was seeing nothing being done, like nothing meaningful being done. And so I decided I was going to leave. I was so happy with my team. Had such a great time, living our best lives. And then June was when I was going to finish up with the team. And we had that apology meeting. So the apology meeting was in the end it was actually very traumatizing because of some of the stuff that happened with this advocate and stuff after but I was like it's fine. I'm done. >> And what year is this? >> That's 2024. So I was like >> this is all still 2024. So it's pretty fresh. >> Yes. So since I decided in January of 2024 that I was going to leave YWAM, I [01:12:55] began writing a very sanitized, very I began writing my story and I knew that I wanted to post my story to my Facebook so that my friends and family that have watched me go through Wyom for 18 years could have an understanding about why I was leaving. So it took me about 6 months to just fully come down to a draft where I felt, you know, it wasn't super angry, it was just my opinion. And I was very cautious in my language, very gentle, very forgiving to people who are still in YWAM. So that had been sort of a separate task in my mind. I I want to let people know I'm leaving YWAM. This is how I want to let people know I'm leaving YWWAM. Totally separate from everything else that was going on. So it just so happened that two weeks before [01:13:39] this apology meeting, I posted it to my friends and family only. So it wasn't a public post. And then I did post it to a private Facebook group that is spiritual abuse in YWAM Facebook group. It was very mild. I owned my opinion. It blew up. Made see the advocate very upset. Although she couldn't tell me why she was upset. She had said the fact that I posted the story, even though it was true, even though every I had a right to say everything that I said, I was going to mess up her process with the Bertsy elders that she was in trying to get them to apologize. That Facebook post sort of went around the world. Like on my member care team, people were getting [01:14:22] screenshots of it because it wasn't public. So someone somewhere who was on my friends list screenshotted it and sent it round to see to all the elders. I don't know to who else. Like everybody that's been involved in this story. It literally pinged around the world. Like my colleagues were getting it in other countries, other continents. People being like, "Oh my gosh." And people were like, "This is shocking. How could Shelby say these things?" And they my team was defending me, you know? They're like, "She can say whatever she wants. It's all true." So yeah, it was this weird post heard around the world that I had no idea. People were like, "Oh my god, you're so brave." I'm like, why? It's just sharing my story. And I had [01:15:04] over a hundred comments and messages of people saying, "Thank you so much for sharing this." Me, too. >> All of that is happening. You have this air quotes apology meeting. Bring us to the end of 2024. What happens after that? >> Yeah. So, I left Wyom officially. I was like, "Whatever. I'm still in therapy. Great trauma therapist helping me." Because at this point, I had developed PTSD. It was bad. It was bad. So, I had a great therapist and I was working with this really lovely team, my team that I love so much. They're so fantastic. They've been such a part of my healing journey and even my hope that why women could change that there could be enough [01:15:49] people out there who saw what I saw and wanted to do something about it. So, I was leading with this team a memberare training course and it was beautiful. It was amazing. We had such a good time. And they knew I was leaving. They were very sad to see me go. I was part of the leadership team, you know. And they were like, "Hey, would you actually lead our next training course, you know?" I'm like, "I'm not part of YWM anymore." And they're like, "We don't care. You're an out consultant. You're the best. You're the best leader we've ever had. we desperately want you for this course because we this is the first time we've ever finished a YWM course and not felt dead. We felt supported and cared for. And so I agreed because I [01:16:33] loved working with these people. I love the work that we were doing. I thought it was super important to continue this training. So I agreed to lead the next one. And so we start planning it. I start planning it. I start doing all the things that need to happen to make this course happen. Starting in July of 2024, my team is on board. We're having a great time. And then December, I'm planning a retreat for part of the team in France. And I get a call from my colleague just before the retreat and she says, "Oh my gosh, I need to tell you something. I was going to tell you at the retreat, but it's gotten out and I didn't I wanted you to hear from us. [01:17:16] So, apparently the YWM European leadership team, at least one person of which is E's like best friend, had somehow got win or found out that I was going to be leading the member care course and they came to the MCRT. This is the member care resource team for YWM Europe and they said absolutely not. Shelby cannot lead this. There's still she's still in like the burton situation isn't sorted, isn't solved. I have no idea. I've left the organization. Like nobody's updated me. And she said, you know, we have fought them for months. We have fought them on this. We've said [01:17:57] that you're the best. We won't have a course if you're not leading it. You know, we fought them. We fought them. We fought them. and they told us that if we didn't comply, they would not send any of their people to the course. we would lose all of the momentum and influence that we've worked so hard to gain in Europe and with leaders across YWM Europe in the last three years because memberare is is like people are suspicious in YWAM of memberare leaders are suspicious because they're we're afraid that memberare people are going to tell people to take care of themselves and that does not go with YW ethos and so it's very suspicious of memberare people so we' worked really [01:18:39] hard to break that down so she's sitting there telling me like we are so sorry we are going to cancel the course because we don't have somebody to lead it and we have been given this choice and we we had to comply and that was that was the thing for my team we are so sorry we had no choice and I was like you know what the first the first and greatest gift I think God ever gave us as human beings is the gift of choice because that's love and that's freedom is choosing and we always have a choice we might not like the consequences of our choices but we always have a choice So it felt and I I went to this retreat that I hosted for these people and try to talk to them about it and try to like help me understand [01:19:23] and you know it was like well we can work better from the inside you know we need this influence we need them to help others and they just they I I'm not even sure if even to this day they still understand why I felt betrayed and why I felt that they threw me under the bus for the sake of their own influence. uence and power. But then they cut me off and then I found out I was essentially blacklisted from YW in the world. I was invited to come teach in North America in a YWM group and then that invitation was rapidly rescended. Someone was like, "Oh my gosh, I found out our team invited you, but also I heard stuff's going on in Europe and that like you've been put on restriction." I'm like, "I don't work for YWAM anymore. How can they put me on [01:20:06] restriction? That's that's a you problem." It was really sad. I had a lot of grief over that because it was like at least there are these people who are good and brave and courageous and standing up for what's right. Just because I can no longer be part of the organization, at least there's good people who are still there. And then I'm not saying they're not good people, but they capitulated to an unhealthy and unbiblical demand. >> That's heartbreaking. And unfortunately, I think it's not uncommon, especially for the stories we've heard, but it doesn't mean that it's even it's even more hurtful. And the reality is is that in the time where courage is, you know, [01:20:52] to me like courage like when I was a kid meant something completely different or my childlike idea of courage. Now what I see courage is just standing up for what's true and standing up for people really. standing up for people and defending people and and for some reason we have decided that that is that's not that's not courage. You know, courage to us is screaming the gospel and shouting at people and shouting down people with Bible verses and that's not courage. That's weakness honestly. But it's sad and I'm sorry you experienced that. And your story to be to be honest Shelby is a story that I think needs to spend so much more time we could spend so much [01:21:37] more time on. I just want to like take a moment and just recognize everything that you've been through and I just want to say I feel that and I sense the pain and hurt. I just want to be with it. I just want to be with it for a moment and just say you are worthy of so much more than what was offered to you. and your strength is incredible, but I also want to recognize the sadness because that sadness needs space to be there and recognized and seen and felt. I'm just sorry, honestly. I'm just sorry. And I know my words thousands of miles away are just words, but I just want to say that. [01:22:19] >> Thank you. >> I would like to know where you're at now. I mean, that was all so recent. Like, where you guys at with the farm? You mentioned that your husband is now standing behind you and supporting you. Where are your friendships at? I mean, 13 of you kind of banded together to tell the the story of what you experienced at that base. Are you guys still in communication? Where's all this at now? >> Yeah. Well, 17 of us, but yeah, I'm still I didn't I didn't really know I didn't know all of the victims well. the ones I did know well I am still in contact with and so we've all sort of been supporting each other through this [01:23:03] journey. I think I'm often jealous that they got to leave somehow and I've had to stay and figure this out. Yeah, I I have lost a lot of friends. I lost a lot in general and I think staying here Yeah. is hard. Me and Son are finding our way together like towards each other in this and that has been, you know, beautiful. My kids have had it hard as well. You know, kids are a little bit like dogs in some ways where they just pick up on the tension, right? They have no idea what's going on. We have chosen to recently, you know, be honest with [01:23:47] them and and share a kid appropriate version of what's been going on. And yeah, it's hard. I mean, I've I've had to work really hard at deconstructing unhealthy theologies and belief systems, you know, false beliefs. Not deconstructing my faith in God and who he is. That was never the question. The question was how I was told he shows up for us and we should show up for him and and that got really hairy. So, I'm still in that process. Yeah, it's challenging. I've just joined a master's program with a faith-based organization, well, a faith-based college in the UK, and I was like, buckle up. I have a lot of questions about theology and missions [01:24:29] and anthropology and stuff, so I'm excited to do that. Yeah, it's it's an ongoing process. >> Good for you, though. We need people like you getting in there and asking the questions. Do you have anything you'd like to share about with YWAM leaders, current or former, or those that may be in a similar situation, whether it be in YWAM or any type of missionary or is there anything you'd like to share with them as well? >> I do want to say that I have so much compassion for those people who maybe are listening and who are still part of YWAM, especially people that I call friends. When I first joined YWAM, you know, my friends and family would share their concerns about YWAM with me and we were sort of given talking points about, [01:25:14] oh, we're like the Levite priests who, you know, were supported by the church and, you know, Satan doesn't want us to succeed, so any criticism is a spiritual attack and and this sort of thing. And within YWM circles, you know, we were actually told that those people who criticize just don't have YWM DNA. That was thing the YWAM DNA that our friends and family and maybe even new WWers who would question just don't understand yet. And we were told that the Bible says we're going to face persecution and criticism is just persecution. So that's what I had been telling myself for almost 20 years. But I do of course want to recognize Wy has so many truly lovely, deeply sincere people who genuinely believe they are called by God [01:25:58] to be part of the organization regardless of anything else. You know, I hear a lot from people like, I don't like the things going on in YWAM or how they deal with abuse. I just don't feel God releasing me from YWAM yet. That's pretty common and that breaks my heart. But I also get it. I understand. When I left, I lost so much. I lost my job, my community, many friends, my sense of purpose in the world, my sense of security, even my reputation, and so much more. And it's really scary to consider speaking up and fighting for change, much less actually leaving when you've seen how others who speak up or leave are actually treated. Right? So [01:26:42] when you see people ostracized and isolated and rejected and then slandered and ruined, nobody wants to like willingly go through that. And so I think that our brains do some truly impressive mental gymnastics to justify staying in a space like that, you know, and it's this sort of thing that when people I I don't think that God would ask us to stay in an abusive organization, but I do hear all the time, even from reading comments to other survivors stories, you know, people say, "It's not all YWAM bases. It's not all YWAM leaders." So we can't judge the whole organization based on a few people's stories or people like you know I'm not released or I can make a difference from the inside. That's that's where we can work. And I think the need to justify yourself is really [01:27:25] really strong. So I just sort of want to put that out there. Like I understand that. I also hear from people that some of them are just using YW women as a vehicle to stay in a country that they want to be in or they feel called to or as a structure to function financially or legally, but like oh we're not really part of the unhealthy bit. And I think what they don't understand is that by associating with the organization they become part of the problem. And again I think this justification breaks my heart because it absolutely minimizes the abuse that has and still is happening. It's sort of like saying, well, not all men or not all churches or whatever. And of course, not all YW women bases or WW people are abusive, but why aren't we willing to listen to the people who speak up? And why aren't we willing to [01:28:09] not stop working until we have made the organization a safer, more Christlike space? Why do we listen to stories of abuse and tell people, "I'm so sorry that happened to you, but it's never happened to me, so I'm staying." Why are victim stories covered up, kept hush hushed unlike a need to know only or people are rebuked when they speak publicly? Having worked in YW across the world for almost two decades, I do think I can safely say it is an organizationwide problem because even though YWM is decentralized, they all still share the same ideology. What do we think happens at the conferences and gatherings? That's where they talk about the YWM DNA and then those leaders go to the events and they take it back to [01:28:51] their bases and share it there. So you could potentially have a slightly healthier leader who's able to sort of sift through some of that and pass on healthy ideas. But if you have power- hungry narcissists for a leader, there are no structures in place to stop that person from making their own little cult. And what happens when the slightly healthier leader leaves or burns out? I used to think that the problem was a structural one and if only we had more policies and structures in place for real clear measurable accountability like then things would be safer. Then I realized that the culture of WM doesn't really support that type of accountability or even want that sort of accountability put in place. And the [01:29:34] idea is that sort what exists is good enough, right? Also, WW doesn't generally support a healthy balanced lifestyle. So people are routinely encouraged to live in ways that are directly destructive to them. In the grand scheme of the YWM DNA, the mission comes before the individual. The 99 sheep matter more than the one. So I thought if we could just change the culture of YWM, then things could go better and leadership would want better accountability and healthier living standards, you know, sort of like be the change that you want to see. But then I realized that theology is what feeds the culture. Much like the soil feeds the roots of a tree which makes the fruit, right? So when I began to gently scrape the surface of the theology, I learned [01:30:17] in WWAM, I didn't find health. I found all the things that lead to a culture that doesn't support healthy people and that produces false fruit. The fruit the Bible talks about is the fruit of the spirit. Love, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, etc. Not how many people are evangelized or how many students you had this year or how many you knew staff or how many prayer walks you did. There are thousands of people in your organization that are not experiencing the fruit of the spirit by being with you, then you're doing it wrong. Of course, it's a generalization of the organization, but it is an educated one. And if a generalization could be true, why are why not willing to take a good hard look at themselves and the organization and [01:31:00] make the necessary changes? Why are survivors dismissed again and again for decades? What are you so afraid of? Why is no one who is currently in WWAM repenting to victim survivors for the abuse and the cover-ups and the gaslighting? Why are you not inviting those people into discussions about how Wyom can do better? Why are you not getting like we said the professional independent third party assessments and investigations? You know, why do they work so hard to justify themselves in the status quo? You asked also like is there anything I'd like to say to YM leaders or those who find themselves in similar situations? To those who might find themselves in similar situation that I did, I will say that I promise you there is life on the other side. There is joy and healing and hope. It's [01:31:44] a hard road, but it's so worth it in the end. And if you're not sure where to start to even begin processing what's in your heart and mind, if you're not sure if you should leave or what that could look like, please reach out to me or anyone else outside of your YWAM context or whatever context you're in that you feel safe with. There's so many resources available to help you walk through this. Even with Bodies Behind the Bus and Sacred Wilderness, like there's so many resources on their website, you're not alone. To win leadership, I would say you should be shaking in your very soul at the damage you have inflicted on so many thousands of people and on those you are still inflicting damage by your sheer refusal. [01:32:29] Open your ears to truth. You who are in leadership, who haven't fought and kept fighting for victims to be heard, for justice to be done, for real change to happen, shame on you. Take a long look at Ezekiel 34. Take a longer look at Matthew 18. Your fate is spelled out in black and white if you don't repent and try to make right the wrongs that Wan has done. To the people who will be angry that I shared my story publicly, I want to ask you why you're angry. Is it because you feel it paints you in an unflattering light? Is it because it touches some sensitive part of your identity to hear the truth laid bare in the public marketplace? Is it because you're more afraid of the potential damage to WWAM than you actually care [01:33:11] for the destruction it has brought on so many people's lives? If you're angry that I shared my story, please know you don't actually have a right to be. Your anger is not valid. If you're angry about the truth being pulled, you might want to worry about the planks that's sticking out of your eye first. To everyone else still in YWAM, if you're listening and you do nothing, you are complicit. There is no neutrality in abuse. If you choose to stay silent, you are complicit in the abuse. If you believe you spoke up and fought for victims and nothing changed and you chose to stay by deluding yourself, that God wants you there, you are complicit in the abuse. God does not support abuse, abusers or abusive systems. Be brave. Be brave enough to at least ask [01:33:55] the hard questions and keep asking until you find the truth. I say this with anger, sure, but I also say this with so much compassion in my heart for you. Because this complicity damages you, too. I know because I was complicit. I had many people and probably still have more that I have to repent to for my complicity or my direct action in their abuse. If you are one of those people that I have harmed and who hasn't heard from me, please reach out if you feel safe enough to because you deserve an apology as well and I would deeply welcome the opportunity to do so. I think the last question that you asked was why did I want to share my story? All YWAM did from the very beginning was work so hard to silence me and to take [01:34:42] my voice away from my very first W experience. I wanted to share my story because it deserves to be heard. I deserve to be heard. I'm learning that. And I wanted to speak up for every single person who I've had contact with in some way who was abused by WWAM and dismissed. All those who tried to speak up but were silenced or those who are still too scared to speak up because they still have more to lose. All those who have gaslit and who may still be questioning themselves because of it. For all of us who have suffered, who have spent years and so many tears and so much grief and even thousands of dollars on therapy and medication and on healing ourselves, I'm speaking up for you. Not to sound too cheesy, but I wanted to share my story [01:35:25] for those who feel voiceless because they deserve to be heard, too. And I'm sharing because I genuinely hope for change in WWAM, in my friends lives who are still there. I genuinely hope this can shed some light on what's happening in WWAM across the world and at the highest levels of leadership. And maybe if enough of us speak up, things will change. I sort of doubt it, but I can hope. Thank you to Shelby and her courageous voice and her willingness to share her story. It was an honor. This was part one of our YWAM series. Next week, we will welcome yet another storyteller to the podcast. Thank you again for listening and bearing witness to these [01:36:09] [music] brave, courageous storytellers. For Janna Harris, I'm Jay Coyle and this is the Bodies Behind the Bus podcast. [music] [music] [music] >> [music] >> The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed here are the speaker's own and not those of this podcast. This content is presented forformational and [01:36:53] educational purposes that constitute fair use, commentary, or criticism. While we make every effort to ensure that the information shared is accurate, we welcome any comment, suggestion, or correction of errors., Shelby's Story / YWAM / Switzerland / Pt. 2, Janna Harris and Jay Coyle (The Bodies Behind The Bus), 01m3cy9k68shy9dawyy6vffgrp.