Skyla's Story / YWAM Kona, HI  🔗 **Source:** [Skyla's Story / YWAM Kona, HI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NV6_SoZmg4) [00:00:00] Bodies Behind the Bus exists to create a space for survivors to tell their stories and to make sure those stories are heard. But we need your support to continue this work. Your donations help us produce this podcast, care for the people who trust us with the stories, and continue the work of Sacred Wilderness. Please consider making a onetime gift or becoming a monthly supporter at sacred wilderness.org. Your support makes this work possible. Today we continue in our series out of YWAM with our second storyteller Skyla. Before we jump into the story, we wanted to take a moment to welcome any new listeners who are joining us for their first time as a result of this series. Bodies Behind [music] the Bus exists as [00:00:42] a digital record of the experiences of those who have been harmed by Western faith organizations. The stories shared here give the counternarrative to the story of leaders and organizations who have perpetrated, enabled, or covered up abuse. You may feel defensive or uncomfortable as you listen. We invite you to see that discomfort as an invitation to be curious. Who or what are you feeling defensive of? Are you able to see the humanity of the storyteller? Can you put yourselves in the shoes of someone who deeply loved the mission and ended up being harmed while trying to [music] be faithful? Can you hold multiple truths at once? It's incredibly important for us to face the harms that happen in the places that we associate with. Will you meet the bravery of these storytellers with your [00:01:24] own by daring to [music] listen? I'm Janna Harris and this is the Bodies Behind the Bus podcast. >> I am all about blessed subtraction. There there is a pile of dead bodies behind the Mars Hill [music] bus and by God's grace it'll be a mountain by the time we're done. You either get on the bus or you get run over by the bus. Those are the options. But the bus ain't going to stop. [music] You either get on the bus or you get run over by the bus. [music] Those are the options. But the best not going to stop. [00:02:08] Welcome back everyone. We are continuing our conversation with YWAM storytellers and we're excited to welcome Skyla. We're going to be talking to Skyla about her time at YWAM Konabase uh in Hawaii. Skyla, welcome to the podcast. >> Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here. >> Well, it's a pleasure to have you. So, I want to start with if you could talk a little bit about about what actually led you to join YWAM. >> Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I'd love to. So, I grew up here on the big island of Hawaii. My family and I went to a local church and there were a lot of WWammers who kind of went to that church or would speak at that church. And so I'd kind of always had the word YOM in the back of my head, but I'd never actually visited the campus. I didn't really know what it [00:02:52] was. For example, maybe after my second year of college, I think I was really passionate about God and really just wanted to know more about God and more about the Bible that I grew up learning about. And so I had been going to a lot of groups with my church and things like that. And someone suggested maybe doing a YWAM DTS. And so I thought about it. I kind of looked into it a bit more and I found a DTS called Voice for the Voiceless DTS and it was actually taking place in in Germany at that time. And the focus of the DTS was using media kind of like video photos, news articles to highlight people in vulnerable situations. And so advocating for people [00:03:36] maybe refugees or human trafficking, different situations like that. So, kind of really aligned with my values. I decided to go do that DTS and actually I will say I had a great experience and I'm still connected with my DTS leaders and several of the friends I made at DTS and I would be more than happy to go visit that base and I have visited that base multiple times over the years since then. So, it was a good experience there. I think that's something that's so interesting about the YWAM stories is there do seem to be like almost every single storyteller we've had has had like one base that they're like I had a good experience there like they had it together they were doing the things the right way. It's so interesting just how large the difference can be from base to [00:04:19] base depending on the leadership which really brings us to why we're here today. [laughter] Uh they're probably it could probably be served by having a little bit better oversight in general, right? Anyways, >> yes, absolutely. >> So, let's let's talk about Kona and >> how you got there and >> Yeah, absolutely. So I did YWAM for a bit of time and then I was serving at another base for a little less than a year. And around that time I kind of went and spent some time with family and so I was with my family for a while. And during the time being with my family I just kind of had a lot of extra time and I spent it learning a lot of sign language like American Sign Language. [00:05:02] And I fell in love with American Sign Language even more than I was before. I think during my DTS I had met some deaf communities and things like that and I just became really passionate about unreached deaf people groups. So people who use a sign language as their first language and wouldn't have access to the Bible because it's not translated into a sign language for example. and I kind of came back home to Hawaii on the big island and I was here maybe for 2 or 3 months before COVID hit and shut down all of the schools on the island and everything just kind of closed down. I was working at Office Max in the Prince Center and I ended up helping a local pastor and we ended up talking and chitchatting and I was sharing with him [00:05:46] about deaf culture and deaf communities and just my passion and love for Bible translation and he was like, "Oh, really? You know what this sounds like? This sounds exactly like this other person who's part of my church named A who does that." and he was like, "I think you should come visit the church and I'd love to introduce you to him and see if there's kind of a connection there and you guys can do something about that." And so I was like, "Oh, sure. I would love to. Absolutely." So I went I visited the church and I talked to him briefly and he was like, "That sounds like exactly what we need on our team. This is what we do. Would you come share with our team and consider meeting with me?" And so I met with him and it was just kind of an automatic like would [00:06:30] you join the team and kind of spearhead your passion for this area with our team. >> So that would have been 2020, right? 2020 when you Okay. I would be interested if if you could pick like two to three words to describe because all these bases are different. If you could pick like two to three words that describe kind of the culture and feel for YWAM Kona or the Kona base, what would what would those words be? I would say it feels a lot like a college or university campus. Very large, a lot of people, but I think I would also say that it's very contradictory in the sense that like there's a lot happening on the surface if you meet people in a very positive joyful way. And I loved being on the campus so much like there's a lot of joy, a lot of [00:07:13] peace, a lot of like pleasantries, things like that. But then there's a lot of contradiction kind of happening behind the scenes with leadership and the words we say don't match the actions we take. The way that we use money doesn't match the values we say we have. So there's just like a lot of kind of like this these small clashes that are just kind of weird leave you a little disconnected. But yeah, you know, I think the other word would just be like really joyful. Like if you walk in there it feels like you're in a little bubble I think is how I would describe it. If you ever read like I'm sure it's like in a whole bunch of Greek myths, but have you ever read Percy Jackson and they go into that little like bubble casino where everyone just is kind of like like drugged or whatever basically and they don't realize that there's things [00:07:55] outside of their bubble happening. That's what it feels like. You're walking into a bubble space. It's all focused on that and there's nothing else outside the bubble. >> Would you say those contradictions that you're describing with like the things that cause you pause and be like that doesn't really add up. Did you notice those right away or was that something that kind of like peeled away as we get through your story? >> I definitely think those things peeled away as we went through the story and then it just kind of became so bland and obvious towards the end. But there would be moments where like if you would have a public speaker or a different leader would be talking or teaching. There'd be stories that they would share or things that they would do or values that they would teach about and then you would be with them maybe one-on-one or see them [00:08:39] out in public and it just was very different the way that they were actually living versus the way that they talked about how they were living or what they saw as true. >> Let's jump into a little bit about you know when you got there you got involved with a team. Uh you guys on YWAM like your acronyms. So I'm actually going to say what the team was called. The end Bible poverty now team which sounds >> I mean that sounds like yes we're doing a lot of work there. >> So can you talk us a little bit about what that team was? Uh you know what did you do? What was your role there? And then >> what does it mean? What >> what does it even mean? [laughter] >> What do we mean? So Lauren Cunningham, the founder of [00:09:21] YWWAM, he I think throughout his life and throughout the years, he would have different kinds of initiatives that he would try to push across all of YWAM. And so this was kind of like one of his latest initiatives that he had come forward and been like, "This is really important. Everybody needs to consider this." And he wrote a small book about it actually that was published within YWAM Publishing. And I think everyone at my DTS base in Germany got one of those books. and we actually did a Bible distribution. And so there's this whole push right around those couple years of every person in the world should have access to the Bible in their heart language or their mother tongue language. So basically the language they think in or that they were raised [00:10:04] speaking even if that language isn't necessarily like a very popular language even if it only belongs to maybe a hundred people or so. And so it was just kind of this idea of like let's not only translate the Bible into maybe trade languages or a common language in a community or country, let's translate it into the home languages of people. And so the end Bible poverty now team was formed with that kind of thinking and mission in mind. And so a lot of what they did, I think initially was basically helping teens who were going out on mission trips have Bible resources, whether that was like paper copies, Bible tracks or digital SD cards, whatever that looked like, just [00:10:48] Bible access that could be taken out and distributed. And I think the thinking behind it is that it would expand and become more aspects of it. So is becoming more also how can we get involved in translation? How can we do translation training? How can we support translation teams? Like what does that look like? So there's a lot to do with those things. >> I mean on the surface it sounds, you know, sounds like spot on. >> Yeah. Lovely. Can you talk through about you know how did you join the group? What was your role in the group? And then talk a little bit about there were two leaders in the group. Can you tell us who those leaders were and what their roles were? >> Yeah. Okay. So this is really funny. I think I was just reflecting on this maybe a day or two ago. I was reflecting on the fact that when I joined the team, [00:11:32] I came to their office. They have an have a main room in their office and some other small rooms off the main office. So I come into the office and I'm sitting down and I'm talking with a and chatting with him and then chatting with another woman on the team and just kind of discussing what they do, what my passions and ideas were. And me, I was already familiar with YWAM, so I kind of already knew kind of what the opportunities were. And so I had spent several days kind of thinking like, okay, well, if I were to join the team, what would I want to do? Because I already knew. I was like, I don't want to join a team just to work for somebody else's mission that I really am not passionate about. So I really did go in there and I was like, hey, I'm happy to [00:12:16] work with you guys. And it really wasn't about YWAM for me. It was more about like I want to see deaf communities be known and appreciated and treated fairly and have access to resources. And so I came in and kind of shared that with them and a was very much so like this sounds great. We need that on our team. We're not doing that. I don't know of anyone in why I'm doing that. Come push us, challenge us, like help us do this, help point us in the right direction of resources. I didn't even know this was a thing. And then at that time all that I really knew was that the leaders of the team were A and another leader I'm gonna call him X. So [00:12:59] A and X and X was kind of told to me that he's off the off island kind of more of talking to outside partners things like that and A was kind of the internal leader. I didn't know at that time that D was also a leader of the team and he's later in the story. He's one of the major ones that I had an a kind of conflict or issue with. And so I didn't even realize that he was considered my leader at that time when I joined the team, which is just weird and very odd to like have such loosey goosey leadership roles that you don't necessarily even really know who is in leadership and who's not in leadership, right? I think it would be helpful too like how old are are you then and how [00:13:43] old are is leader A and leader D at that time. >> Yeah. So I was probably like maybe 23 22 23 maybe 24 somewhere in that range. And I think leader A, you know, he was married had a son probably like 8 years old. So I'm thinking he's probably like 40s, 50s, something like that, right? And leader D is a bit younger than that. I think leader D was probably only like four or five years older than me. So he's probably like >> maybe just turning 30 or something like that. >> Yeah, we see that a lot with the with the leaders. Uh we don't see a lot of older leaders in these stories. So I guess we have had some but there are a lot of young leaders which we see. So >> well this team was definitely unique. I [00:14:25] think there were a lot of older members of this team. We used to joke about that that the team was mostly a little bit older than the rest of >> Okay. So you you joined this team. I mean it has a very great mission and you have like you're passionate about it. You you want to do it. You feel like hey this is going to be great. But then there you there eventually becomes a kind of a an incident initial troubling incident with leader D uh at a meeting. Can you talk to us a little bit about what happened specifically at that meeting? >> Yeah, absolutely. So that was a lot happened. So we would meet maybe a couple times a week. We would have morning meetings, team meetings with the whole team. And so I am usually not on time or I'm usually right on time, [00:15:11] Hawaii time anyway. But that morning I was actually early. And so I get there early and I walk down and I'm surprised to see that there's actually most of the team is already there. And so I just, you know, like I would any other day, I just kind of go and join them, sit down on the picnic table with them. And they're all kind of talking about something kind of serious. And so I'm just listening. and then, you know, giving my input when they kind of asked for input and asking some questions and things like that. Felt a little awkward, but I just couldn't tell why until later another girl kind of showed up early as well. And then everyone else from the team kind of shows up and it comes up in conversation, I think, that leader A without telling everyone on the team had [00:15:57] decided to create his own internal leadership group. And so he decided that he was going to select different people from the team to be part of this leadership group that he was going to help train to be leaders but also rely on to help him because I think he was feeling overwhelmed and stressed as well in his job. But it was very poorly put together in the sense that the group was made out of all the men on the team, none of the women except for leader D's wife and maybe two of the brand new male team members. So it was basically all the men, all his best friends, right? That's what he decided to make his leadership team to make all these [00:16:39] decisions, right? So the meeting starts out with that and then we get into the meeting, we're talking about things and leader D brings up this brand new idea that he wants to do and that he wants to spearhead that he wants to lead out for all the YM bases like around the world and he's very excited about it and he's been talking about it. I think he's talked about it before several times and I had brought up to him several times before just very gently because I don't want to push his buttons because I try not to talk to him too much cuz he has a interesting personality that's not very fun to talk to on oneonone at least in my experience. My point being he brings up this new idea and I am like okay in my mind I'm like okay I have to go and [00:17:23] talk to him about my role on the team deaf communities because I foresee if we don't preemptively address this there are going to be a lot of issues further down the line and so after the meeting I go up to him and I try in my most kind way of just being like hey I know we've talked about this before, but I really think it'd be great if you and I could sit down and kind of talk about what you're doing and I can see what resources we can come up with to help when it comes to deaf communities so that you don't get everything created and started and then have to backtrack or try and do something else or differently. Can we just get it done and [00:18:06] work on it from the beginning so that we have the best effort? and he was immediately so defensive and very much so like well that's not important that's not what I'm focusing on or that doesn't need to happen or you can do that later or I'm really busy I don't have time to meet there was just like all these excuses of why let's not do that and I was just so dejected and so disappointed I think and I started to cry which is not something I do very often. Maybe it's something I do very often now that I've gone through this w experience. [laughter] But before this, I did not cry very [00:18:49] often at all. I'm not a crier, at least not publicly. But if I do start crying, it's really hard for me to talk, right? So I'm crying and I really just am like I can't talk. And so I'm crying and we kind of move back over to the tables and leader A, I think, takes notice. And so he comes over to kind of see what's going on. And between leader A and leader D, they're just both talking and just very much so I felt very overwhelmed and unheard or unseen. And it was a lot of felt like they were just defending a lot of what they were saying and reasons why we don't need to engage with deaf communities. And for me at that moment I [00:19:33] knew that there were a lot of teams on campus who maybe weren't interested in that and that's okay you know like clearly just like tell me that's okay. But I came into the team with the response from leader A and what I thought was all of the leaders of the team being we want this and we want to do it and your role in the team is to push us to work for this. And so it was really difficult cuz I felt kind of conflicted in the sense of like I'm supposed to push you guys but you don't want the feedback is what it felt like. So it was just like this disconnect. Anyway, so I'm crying and eventually I realize like we're not going to have a conversation. Like I'm not in a place where I can have a conversation with you guys. And I look at them both and and I just say I'm done with this [00:20:17] conversation. I'm going to go. And they don't say anything. And I just wait a second and then I just turn and I walk away and I go to my car and I just kind of drive home and for the rest of the day and just, you know, get out of that space and I get a message at like 5:00 that evening being from leader A and leader D saying, "Hey, let's meet tomorrow morning at such and such time." Right? And I kind of send them a message back and I'm like, "Okay, that sounds like a good idea. Can you clarify with me what kind of are we going to cover in this meeting? I assume we're going to be talking about what happened, but can we just talk about a little bit more? What [00:20:58] are you thinking? And I just don't get a response back from them. So, they just kind of like give me no information. So, I show up the next day and I end up meeting with both of them and we're actually outside on a picnic table in a public space and we're sitting down and I have both of them across from me and the first thing leader D says to me, he says, he says, "We didn't want to tell you why we were meeting because we needed to test your reaction." And so I get there and immediately they're like, "We're testing you. We want to see how you react." Right? So, it sets the whole stage of like, okay, well, if I cry again, what does that mean for you guys? Do I fail the test? What are you [00:21:40] testing? Right? So, I'm not allowed to have any of my real emotions or real thoughts right from the get-go. Right? And then leader D goes into, you were so rude yesterday. If you cry like that and you get emotional like that, how can we trust you with all of the other organizations we're trying to work with? >> Hold on. Was he asserting that you crying was rude? >> Yes, he was asserting that me crying and me deciding to leave the conversation was rude. So, the way that I left the conversation and the fact that I cried and had to leave the conversation was really rude and it showed that I didn't have any disciplehip. And so, he was [00:22:23] like, "You clearly need to be discipled and that's okay. I can help you with that." Right? Anyway, so he was like, "You clearly need to be discipled." And so he just kind of started banging down on my character. And mind you, I had not worked with this person, even though we were on the same team for probably a year now or something. I had not had one-on-one conversations really with this person. We did not engage in any projects together. So, he had no idea who I was as a person. Anyway, so it was kind of like at that point that leader A, leader A wasn't saying anything and leader D just kept saying and leader A agrees with me and leader A is on the [00:23:05] same page with me just talking for leader A over and over and over again and leader A said nothing anyway. And so it was at that point that leader A kind of like looks at his watch and he's like, "Hey, I have to go pick up my car from the shop. So I think you've got this handled. You can finish the conversation. [laughter] I think this is Anyway, so he like just leaves and I'm like sitting there like don't leave me here with this guy. Like what are you doing? What is going on? But I think one of the things I want to point out too is like we were in a public setting. Like there were people around but the feeling I had was that I was trapped. >> Well, and now you don't have a witness to what's happening. >> And now I don't have a witness. Exactly. I don't have a witness. feeling so trapped like if I disagree, if I get up [00:23:48] and leave again from this situation that feels really unfair or, you know, not healthy, then am I going to be called rude again? Am I going to be kicked off the team? Things like that. And so essentially leader A leaves and leader D just continues and it continues with you know we have this big gathering coming up like how can we trust you to speak to people at the gathering about deaf communities that you were planning to do? How can we you know just these things that were like threatening my position on the team, threatening my job within YWAM? And so he was just obviously very offended. It was just very extreme reaction, right? It just didn't match. Didn't really make sense, right? Because truly all that had [00:24:32] happened was we had a conversation. I cried. I said I needed to leave. And then the next day I get totally bered for all these things. And I think one of the worst parts of that conversation for me was right at the end he was like, "Are you committed to me? Like I need to know that you're committed to me." Right? And so it was this thing of like him expecting me to be like, I'm committed to you and what you're doing. Like just and it felt really cringy. It felt really uneasy to me. Like it felt really inappropriate the way that he was wording it. It was like a personal commitment instead of like we're working on a team with the same focus, right? It wasn't even a commitment to the team or [00:25:14] whatever. And I think I politely and said like I'm really committed to what God has for me. And he didn't like that. he really [clears throat] didn't like that response. So, I think after that instant, he just had it out for me and he was just like not happy that I was not bowing down to whatever he wanted at that point. >> And all of this just stems from you being like, "Hey, like my focus is on this community and I would like more support in that." >> Yes. >> And more focus on this like underserved, underreached community. >> Can we have a conversation about it? Can we can we collaborate on that? And that's where it st stemmed from. That's exactly where it stem from. It just doesn't it didn't add up. It was just [00:25:56] such an extreme reaction. >> It's nothing surprising by it, but it's definitely insane on so many levels. Uh and you had mentioned you'd been working with group for a year at this point, right? >> I think so. I think it was about a year. Yeah. So, it'd been a while. And leader D, was he a known leader or was he just he was a known leader, but you didn't have a lot of interaction with him before this? >> I didn't have a lot of interaction. He kind of seemed to always do his own thing. He was off island a lot too, doing different work or trips with other YW bases as well. So there there wasn't a lot of overlap in what we did. I don't think I really realized at this time that he was a leader of the team. Maybe until that conversation. I think in that [00:26:40] conversation was when I he told me or I realized that he was one of the leaders of EVPN. He kind of brought that up at one point and so it was odd for me. >> It continues to go. We don't stop there as any of these YWAM stories do. So, so after this you do consult with the pastor. They suggest you go meet with leader A uh to kind of talk through you know what happened. How did that go? >> Yeah. So, yeah, I consulted several different people and I think I actually took maybe a month or or so, maybe a month or two months before going back and talking to leader A about it. There was a lot happening at that time, like [00:27:22] there was the gathering that leader D had been like, "You're not going to be able to do the gathering." And I really wanted to do that. And [laughter] so, I kind of waited to bring it up until after the gathering had ended. But I talked to my pastor and he was like, "Well, I've learned in my experience that, you know, women are more emotional sometimes and that's just normal." Anyway, so he was like, "When you go back, you should definitely bring a woman with you to sit with you." And so anyway, so I was like, "Okay, I'm going to go talk to leader A. Leader A seems a bit more sensible." And so I go back and set up a meeting with leader A. And before that happened, I actually got a call from one of the women on the team, from a friend of mine. And I hadn't [00:28:05] shared what had happened with like anyone on the team mostly at this point in time. So I share very surface level with her. And she actually says, "I've been feeling the same way since I joined the team, which was before me." She was like, "Since I joined the team, I felt like there was a lot of misogyny. Leader D doesn't let me speak in meetings or talks over me." And so she I think was in general having some issues with a lot of the men on the team not letting her talk or just you know that kind of atmosphere very male-centered atmosphere and she was like actually I was thinking about going and talking to leader A as well and so she and I kind of were like let's go and talk to him we can go talk to him together and so we go and we talked to him together and actually it [00:28:50] was a really good conversation or it felt like it was a good conversation in the sense that he actually responded and was like, "Hey, you know what? That is wrong and we can't act like that and we do need to change." And he had committed to talking to leader D for me directly about the things that I had mentioned. And then he said he would talk to all of the men on the team also. And he actually cried at one point and and he just comes off as a really sweet person. Like it's hard for me to be I don't know. >> It's okay. It's It is okay to cry. I am just >> boggled that you crying was rude and not allowed [00:29:34] and yet he's having an emotional response in a call or a conversation with you. >> That is so true. I never made that connection before. That's so true. Yeah. >> Well, when men men cry, it's from a place of being authentic, Janna. We we cry from a [laughter] serious place. Okay. >> You could never be rude with those tears. So in my mind, things felt really resolved for me is kind of what I wanted. I wanted someone to say to leader D like, "Hey, don't do that. These things are not okay. That's not okay. The end." And move on. That's kind of what I was feeling at that time. Time goes on and maybe a week and a half, two weeks later, leader A comes and he asks [00:30:17] me in a way that he asks me basically like, "Hey, have you seen leader D improve? Has have things improved with leader D?" Right? And I just I hadn't really interacted with him, but I was like, "Sure, yes, things are great." I was like, "I don't know. I haven't really been around him." Yeah, I think so. And he's like, "Okay, great." And it really insinuated this idea of like, okay, leader A went and spoke to leader D. Come to find out, maybe six months later, leader A had never spoken to leader D at all. And I finally only figured that out when I very directly asked him like two times in a row. And then he was like, "No, I didn't." And I [00:31:00] was like, "Why?" And his response was, "I didn't think it was that serious." >> Bro cried. [laughter] I mean, is this not like I mean, if there I mean, there's so many textbook examples of patriarchy and how men in these spaces view women, but my god, Skyla, like you I mean, this is like a h It's not important. It wasn't important. You're not important. My god, how did you feel when you said that? Like, what were you thinking? >> Oh my goodness. I was I was so sad and so angry. I was shocked, I think, because I had this idea of who leader A was as being [00:31:45] honest and heartfelt, right? And I had worked with him and I and I trusted him a lot. And I think for me that was maybe the pinrop in the room of you are not who you say you are. >> So this is where I mean your story like it's peeling back and it just keeps getting more bizarre. I mean, it's just like the escalation. >> Oh my god. >> It's just wild. Just like why are we here? Like what is going on? >> And I'm sure that's how you felt, too. Like what? That's so confusing. Like this entire chain of events, you're explaining it perfectly. And you're not explaining it with a lot of emotion either. So, you know, just matter of [00:32:28] factly saying this very bizarre experience that you went through that is like completely outlandish and ridiculous as far as their behavior. I just can't fathom what do you do in that scenario? You're basically stuck. If I want to pursue my passion >> and pursue my ministry, then I have to find a way to fall in line to be accepted here. Yet there is no way to fall in line and be accepted in a space that is actively against you for no reason. Like it's so confusing. >> It's so confusing. And I think that's part of what made it so difficult for me to talk to people about is just how bizarre it is. Because when you talk to [00:33:14] someone about it and they're like that can't that doesn't make any sense. Like how could that have happened, you You know, and I think the story gets even more bizarre as we go on, but like just being like if I were to share it with people and I only had like five minutes, it'd be like that doesn't make any sense in the world. What are you talking about? [laughter] It's just it's so it's so odd in so many ways. It is so extreme in so many ways. Yeah, >> extreme is an understatement. But here we go. So, we're going to dive in. So, uh to your credit, you're like, "Hey, I I got to get some resolution. I'm still not resolved." So you push for or you sought out mediation which I mean honestly good for you but here we go and another twist. So who did you seek out [00:33:58] for mediation and specifically can you tell us like was this a professional mediator? Like what was this person's role before they got involved in this process? >> Yeah. So I had I had met this person maybe two or three times in like community workshops or nights or game nights and things like that. So I did not know her very well personally at all and I and that's part of the reason I sought her out was because when I had spoken to her she seemed to have a lot of experience in mediation or so she had kind of shared was her experience in mediation over the years conflict resolution and I at that time was still trying to be very fair with leader D right I didn't want to pull in my best [00:34:41] friend to be our mediator and so I had tried to think like okay well who could I reach out to that maybe would be a leader not a leader but like someone who's known and respected within YWAM knows YWAM but also someone maybe who is a woman who could you know see my perspective a little bit better or help with maybe some of the misogyny that I was experiencing or feeling but also had experience with conflict resolution and so I had reached out to her thinking that she would be kind of a neutral party for all of us. She was kind but her help was not helpful I would say and mostly because no fault to her just the sense that almost every female leader that I have spoken to within WWAM most [00:35:26] almost all of them when I express concerns of abuse or especially like male abuse abuse from male leaders and things like that or even just like poor communication or just being mean or like bullying or just like poor or communication things like that their response is often always to share their own experience of being hurt or abused by a male leader and saying I didn't do anything about it and that's why I have my position of power and authority today. If I had done something about it I probably wouldn't have my position. So she goes on to share her own experience within a a church circle where she was her story was kind of like whoa that's a [00:36:10] little scary that happened to you. But so she had her own situation with a male leader and she shared that with me to be like see and I didn't do anything about it and it all worked out and now I have these other roles of leadership. So that's kind of the response I get over and over again. And so anyway, so in that meeting with her, I'm feeling unresolved at the end. Mostly because while talking with leader D, there really seemed to be no acceptance that he did anything wrong at all or no acceptance that what he did made me feel unsafe in any context. He just would not take any ownership of that and it just I didn't feel like we made any progress. And so I kind of am like is there [00:36:53] someone else that you feel accountable to that maybe we could go to together, right? Was kind of my thinking like is there someone that you would listen to basically or take input from that maybe we could go talk to about this and he was basically said no there's no one else on our team or campus that I feel accountable to except for DH. And so DH at this time was basically the acting leader of WWAM Kona because Lauren Cunningham was old and he was, you know, getting older, maybe a little bit sick and wasn't really able to do as much as he used to do. So leader DH was set to kind of like take over next. And so leader DH is also a man who lived at the same base that this leader D had grown [00:37:40] up at when he was a child. leader D lived at his house at the same house as DH. And so they were very close. DH was kind of like his like other dad or Hanai uncle, like a grandfather or whatever you want to say, some sort of familiar family kind of figure to him. >> There's something important here in your timeline that I want to call out before we continue. The first thing the mediator told you to do was go meet with leader D oneonone. Correct. >> Mhm. Yep. So that was the first advice from a mediator >> to go meet with the person and you did you did do that. >> I did. I did do that. I did. There wasn't much of a conversation. I think I [00:38:23] was terrified. I was so afraid of leader D. I think that was part of why I had sought out that mediation. I didn't realize the fear I had of him until he was back on campus and I was back on campus and we were there kind of in the same spaces again. And I didn't understand it at the time because I've never really struggled much with anxiety and things like that. I hadn't had PTSD, but I was experiencing PTSD symptoms from being near him. It was in my chest. It was just kind of hard to breathe. I got really shaky when I was around him. So, I was I was genuinely afraid of him at that time. But, I did I went and I spoke to him one-on-one and I just kind of shared like, "Hey, this is how I feel. I learned that that leader A never [00:39:08] addressed this with you. I don't feel settled about what's going on and I'm pulling in a mediator and I'd like for us to talk to this mediator together. >> I mean, one, that was really brave of you. You could have just shoved it under the rug and not addressed it to be quite honest. But two, I think it's really important for people to understand the complexities involved in that like physiological response that you're explaining there because I think really it's easy to dismiss someone being like I was fearful of having a conversation cuz on the surface if that's the full statement then people who haven't experienced really like narcissistic [00:39:51] abuse don't understand the unsettling nature of how those types interactions go. And the reality is is your body knew that it was not safe. And when you say not safe at the time, I don't think you're speaking about your physical safety. Would were you feeling physically unsafe? >> I wasn't feeling physically unsafe. No, just, you know, I knew that I was physically safe, but I felt like I was about to be like bashed in the head. Right. That's the feeling, >> right? And that's really helpful for people to hear because that is the insidious nature of this type of abuse, which is what you were experiencing. You [00:40:34] explained some gaslighting to be honest. There was a reframe of what you were doing and who you were. There was identity statements put on you to tear you down. And then honestly, it was kind of textbook Darvo when you came to them the next day. He's denying what he has done. And then he reversed victim offender. Said, "You were rude for your tears. You were the one that was wrong for having a proper emotional response to my inappropriate behavior." And so all of that, your brain, your body is freaking out. It's like there is no place to stand here. There's no solid [00:41:18] foundation because any of what's actually happening in reality can be twisted by this person with more power right now. And again, your entire ministry, all of your work is on the line in the midst of this. And you've already been threatened with parts of that being taken away. And not only that, but correct me if I'm wrong, writing on you continuing in this role, is the deaf community being served at all, right? Like, is anybody else serving that community? >> That's so true. So, there is like one there's one group actually in Jamaica who's been spearheading and working with deaf communities within YM for so many years. Amazing group of people. I just [00:42:00] want to give them so much credit for everything that they did and the ways that they've served for many years. and I just kind of walked in out of the blue with this passion of like I don't know what I'm doing necessarily, but I'm going to find out. But yeah, so when it comes to like the YWAM Kona campus, in many ways the Wyom Kona campus is kind of like a a huge hub for the rest of it, for the rest of YWAM because Lauren Cunningham lives there, right? And it's probably the largest campus member-wise. And so yeah, in my mind it's like, okay, well, if I'm not here doing this, then no one's going to do it. And so for me that seemed and felt so very critical, right, to care for this huge group of people who have expressed so much hurt [00:42:44] and harm from missionaries who have been just ignorant of how to work with that community, right? And so I really cared a lot about protecting what felt like protecting deaf communities or empowering deaf communities to have voices and be heard within these this space. >> All right. So we I mean I I would say all right let's let's end the story here but it doesn't end here. It continues to it continues to go. So this this is very unusual. There's an event that happens next on campus that I think is not directly tied into your story but it talks about how WWAM handles abuse. Honestly there is someone who comes forward to report clergy sexual abuse. The response of the leadership of WWAM [00:43:29] is horrific. I will say that. But can you give us from a firthand experience, you know, what happened there? I know, and this will tie in here to Skyla's story as well, but you hear about it. There's someone who comes initially to talk about it with your group. Can you share a little bit more about that? >> Yeah, so it was a woman on our team who brought up the allegations of abuse against leader X, who I had mentioned right at the beginning of our story. So he was the other leader of the EBPN or end Bible poverty now team that I had basically no interaction with. He was kind of off campus for a lot of the time. And so it was kind of very close to our team. I knew this this woman. I [00:44:13] was friends with her, things like that. And so one of the campus leaders comes into our team to share basically what has happened. And at this point I am aware a little bit of this woman's story and several other people on the most of the team is not right. So I was in this interesting position that felt very much so like an observer, right? So I had I had some of the woman's story and I was able to listen to what leaders said and have this moment of like what are they talking about? Right? So they come in and the first thing that they kind of say is they start talking about leader X and they have to spend at least five minutes exalting all the wonderful [00:44:56] things leader X has done for YWAM over the years and they talk about everything he's given the ways that he has served what he has brought to the team all of his great characteristics and then I think they go into a little bit of how Jesus says we have to forgive. We want to see redemption and restoration and everyone makes mistakes. And that's where we start off the meeting. And it's only after this that they mentioned that there have been some allegations of clergy sexual abuse. And they've really emphasized the fact that it's just allegations. And in WWIM there's this concept called spheres which you may have come up before I'm not sure but the [00:45:39] spheres are kind of like there's an education sphere there's entertainment sphere government sphere family sphere and it's just kind of these different parts of society and the concept is that Christians should be a part of every part of society and so they bring up this concept of the government sphere and they say this girl has decided to or this woman has decided to pursue legal action against WWAM. So, she's decided to take this situation into the government sphere. And since she's no longer in the WWAM, Christian, whatever ministry sphere you want to call it, then we don't have to play basically by [00:46:23] the same Christian rules. They didn't say that, but they were that's basically what they were insinuating. They were basically like, so we don't need to talk to her anymore. They were basically trying to tell the team in pleasant Christian ways of like don't talk to this person if you know who it is. Don't engage with her at all. Which I think was really sad because it goes against what feels kind or ethical. I think I do want to mention also just at this moment too, these sexual abuse allegations come out and leader X is still in the office like two weeks for two weeks meeting with women on the team one on- one. And one of the women that I know actually [00:47:08] brings up in this meeting and she says, "Why was I allowed to meet with him one on- one if you knew this was happening?" So, this campus representative is talking to our team, right? Um, and I'll call him SO. And so, SO then says, "Hey, we have this inappropriate relationship that has happened." And that's the way that he frames it in the entire conversation. He doesn't actually say specifically that it was clergy sexual abuse. I think I'm just so used to using the term clergy sexual abuse because that's what it is. That's what happened. And so that seems like the appropriate thing to call it, but the way that they frame it, of course, is they completely downplay it. They call it an [00:47:51] inappropriate relationship, which places blame on both sides, you know, both parties, the victim and leader X. And then everyone in the team kind of walks away with this idea that it was just an affair. And I can vividly remember talking to people days afterwards and them just having this idea in their head that what happened was simply an affair, that it wasn't actually abuse. The just the way that they downplayed it in the meeting, the way that he would speak about it, and then the way that he would start talking about uh leader X is in a really good place right now with his family and he's very repentant and we're [00:48:35] really rooting for him. It was just sickening to my stomach how much they twisted the situation. But, you know, they were really effective in twisting the situation because a lot of people believed them. So, I think that's a sad part of it, too. I'd also kind of just want to point out, so during that meeting, it continues. Another member of the team basically says, "Hey, leader X came and spoke to our internal leadership group." remember leader A had made that like secret internal leadership team of all his best friends. And so one of those um people was basically like so leader X came and spoke to us and all he told us was that [00:49:19] he had made some compromises with his family during co he needed to take a break to focus on his family. And I I can reflect back now on that and just say, "Wow, how absurd is it that leader X was given the platform to control his narrative to that extent where he got to say what he wanted to say in the way he wanted to say it and present it. Whereas the victim, her voice was effectively like cut off, right? And then I can just like feel for myself too and be like in so many ways my voice has been and was cut off as well. And so I think it kind [00:50:04] of points to this idea of like what is why I'm afraid of? You know, they're not afraid of staff members being abused. They're afraid of staff members talking about the abuse. They're afraid of their reputation being harmed. They're afraid of people speaking out. They're not af they're not worried about keeping their staff safe. They're really not. And that's also devastating to kind of come to that conclusion as well. And I think just like to re-emphasize that point of how much they are not concerned about keeping us safe. In that same meeting, I basically brought up this thing of like, hey, I've been asking and I've been wanting and I've been pushing for there [00:50:49] to be more support for the women on our team because all of our leaders are men. And his response to me essentially is, "No one forced you to be here. If you don't like it, there are a lot of other ministries in WWAM. You can go join one of those ministries." What a sad statement, right? To say, "I hear your concern and [clears throat] you just told me that you want more support and my response to you is we're not going to give you more support. You can leave." And I think that kind of sums up a lot of the picture in my story with YWAM, which is we are not interested in [00:51:34] changing. If you don't like it, you can leave or you know, we'll just kick you out. That works that way too, right? >> So, this is where it gets really the the stories start to intertwine. I think it's important to understand in and your timeline here. So, as this is as after this happened, you're still pushing for resolving matters. You go back to leader A and you're trying to still see what you can do with leader D. You eventually tell leader A and you're going to leave the team or you're thinking about leaving the team, right? What was his response to you saying you wanted to leave the team? >> His response was like, "Please don't leave the team." You know? Uh he was like, "Please don't leave. We we need you. We're going to get through this. There's a lot of good you've been [00:52:16] doing." He was very positive about who I was as a person. He was like, "You work harder than maybe most of the people on this team. I see how much you're doing. You're doing you're doing a lot and there's a lot changing. Like look how many people on our campus know about deaf culture now. Look how many people on our campus are connected with resources or different things like that. So it was very much so like don't leave. I felt like I couldn't leave without that blessing of like you can leave because I didn't want to break those relationships not realizing looking back those relationships were already broken but I didn't want to leave and break all those relationships and I think at the [00:52:58] same time you never know what's going to happen in the future. So in my mind it was like do I leave and set down and let go of all of the good that has happened like what if more great things will happen? What if this does get better? But looking back, I really wish I would have just left when I felt like I should leave. >> Okay. So, you ask to meet with leader A again to you want to do a formal statement. You say, "Hey, I want to make a formal statement." That meeting happens and there's not just leader A, there's other people there too, right? Okay. I think it's important to to context of who was in that meeting and what did they tell you during that meeting. >> Oh my goodness, that was that was a surprise. That was a shocker. And I will say, so like the men on our team, I I [00:53:44] love them, you know, like I babysat their children, right? Things like that. We we had barbecues together sometimes. I come in expecting to have a meeting with leader A essentially where I'm like, "Okay, I know I've been saying it, but I just need to be so direct with him and be like, "Hey, this is what I see. This is what I need to say. I need you to know this so that I can get it off of my chest and be like, I've done what's what I can do to help protect people or be clear about what is safe, what is healthy that I see. My experience, this whole clergy sexual abuse has come up. I need to clarify. And so that's kind of my expectation. I get to the meeting and [00:54:26] it is not that at all. I walk in and there's maybe six or seven of the male leaders of our team all there and we sit down together and I essentially am not able to share my concerns at all and it goes directly into each and every single one of them kind of sharing their contempt or what they see with me and I think it goes into one person's like I think you're offended against WWAM like I think you're offended against WWAM you seem to to not like WWAM or something like that. And which to be honest, I did not at that time, right? And it's not just it's not the YWAM concept. It's the hey, yeah, like I don't like what's [00:55:10] happening. That's true. You're right. I don't like what's happening. I'm glad you figured that out. But anyway, and then it's different things like you don't communicate very well or you're still very young and you have a lot to learn. So just kind of like these different pieces or aspects of what's wrong with you. >> We should also pause right now where every listener has heard you now for almost an hour communicate very well and very clearly. So we're just going to throw that out there before you continue. [laughter] >> Thank you. Oh, it's funny. I think like 5 days earlier I was at another team doing like leading a prayer talk or something like that and I had a girl come up to me afterwards and she was like I love the way you communicate. It [00:55:54] was just like I just have that in the back of my mind cuz it was it's so funny. So anyway, so that was just kind of like the conversation I had with all of them. I don't know what they were expecting to get out of it but it was like okay I think in at towards the end of the conversation one of them was like and see you're they complimented me. I think one of them had complimented me on my ability to take feedback and they were like, "Most people, especially your age, can't handle all of this feedback and be so accepting or whatever and be so open to it and have a conversation about it." That's kind of the conversation that we had. And I think towards the end, I kind of like look at leader A and I'm like, "Can I talk about the concerns I had with what was going [00:56:37] on?" And he just looked at me really confused. He was like, "Why?" It was like, "No, we're not going to talk about any of the concerns. We're going to point out what's wrong with you because you're concerned." >> So, after meeting with leader A, what happens? >> So, I had pushed that we could have more women to talk to about some of the issues we're having with the team and the culture of the team and things like that. And I feel so relieved when I'm told, "Hey, Darlene Cunningham is going to come and talk to the team." And so that's Lauren's wife, right? The co-founder of YWAM. And I'm like, "Yay, great." And they present it as she's coming into our team and she's [00:57:22] specifically going to talk about these clergy sexual abuse allegations and she's going to answer any questions that you have and talk with you guys. And so I feel like, yay, it h it worked. You know, I'm feeling like it worked. It happened. They listened. They care. And then I get a text message from leader A that weekend who says, hey, we need to meet with you at like 8:00, 8:00 a.m. before the meeting at 9:00. And I'm like giving a little bit of push back. And I'm kind of like, hey, is it possible can we meet in the afternoon after the meeting? And they're like, no, meet with us at 8:00 a.m. before the meeting or don't come to the meeting. And so I'm like, "Okay." So I meet with them at 8 a.m. I brought another an older woman [00:58:05] with me as well to be witnessed. We get there and essentially they're like, "Hey, uh, we think you need to take a break." And then it turns into like, "Hey, you're off the team by the end of this meeting or whatever. You're not going to have access to your email. You're not going to have access to the office anymore. You can come get your stuff after office hours. you can't come to any of our EVPN like gathering groups that we're doing like the one that you have planned in a couple months or whatever and they're they say and you're going to be off the team chats and like all that kind of stuff. So by the end of that meeting and I kind of push back a little bit and I'm like hey can I have my emails until the end of the week? I'm actively in conversations with people actively doing trainings and video calls [00:58:49] and all of my files and resources are in that email. And so leader A is like yes you can. I think it's important to mention like during that conversation there were two leaders. There was leader A and leader K. Leader K was there too. Leader K was definitely a bit more stern about all those things than leader A. Leader A at one point says to me, Skyla, I know it's not right, but it's what's best for the team. And then another point he says, it's not really up to me. My arms being twisted. I bring up this whole concept of like, hey, so you're kicking me off the team genuinely one hour before Darlene comes into the conversation. And so I don't get to share my side of the story with Darlene. I don't get to talk to her about my experience at all. And they're like, [00:59:31] "No, it's not because of that. It has nothing to do with that. It has nothing to do with Darlene coming into the meeting. Has nothing to do with how you feel or what you think about the sexual abuse allegations or how you feel about leader D. It has nothing to do with that. No, nothing to do with that. That's what they go with. They're like, "It has nothing to do with that. It's just it's you and we think you just need to work on your communication and get some more disciplehip." And then and then of course you could come back or something when when you're better. That's kind of like where they go with that. >> Do you go to the meeting? >> I don't go to the meeting. I leave. I'm crying at that point. I cry a lot during this season of my life apparently. So I, you know, I just I kind of like I leave. And yeah, I don't go to the meeting. I kind of wish I had, but at the same [01:00:13] time, I'm really glad I didn't cuz I'm sure they would have called security on me or something as the dangerous criminal that I am. Just kidding. That's sarcasm there, right? >> It will make sense in a minute. Why >> it'll it'll make sense in a minute. So, no. So, I leave. I go I leave. I go in my car. I think I sit in my car for like 20 minutes or something and then I I I leave. I go back home. I spend the rest of the day crying. >> And And the reason was just you. Basically, just you. And they changed their they changed their reasons five or six times. I have a list of them somewhere of all the different reasons they gave me, but every single one of the reasons is it's just you. One of them was you're offended. One of them is the communication. Uh one of them was one of [01:00:56] them was we don't know if your passion really aligns with end Bible poverty now anymore. Like we don't really know if we have the capacity to do deaf community stuff. We don't know if that's really who we are anymore. So it's just like it changes every every time you talk to them. you're not kicked out of YWAM, right? Like you're just kicked out of the >> Right. So, we leave the conversation and they're like, "Maybe you need to go join a different ministry within YWAM Kona. Maybe you need to start your own ministry focused on deaf communities within YWAM Kona and I hope to see you around." You know, that's that's where we leave off on. We leave off with I hope to see you around campus. And and that's that's where we live off. and I continue to be on campus because I still have friends and I still am meeting with [01:01:39] people and doing meetings and thing things on the campus. So in some ways I kind of continue with my role for like another week or so kind of figuring out what to do and getting all of my files off my email. But >> so that is horrific. You just got fired but there was a conversation that happened before that which you were encouraged to go have. Can you explain what that entailed? What happened in that conversation prior to you being let go? >> Yeah. So, for the clergy sexual abuse allegation, there was a team, I think, of about three who were doing an internal investigation. And so, one of the people on that team was a woman named L, and her last name also starts [01:02:22] with L, so I'll call her LL. And so LL had a phone call with me and I didn't I didn't know if I really wanted to have the phone call but leader A was kind of like you have to have that phone call before you come meet with Darlene. And so I'm like okay I'll have that phone call and I think it was like a 45minute phone call or so. So it was pretty long. I'm doing a lot of listening to her and at some point in that conversation, she she says, "I don't know how that woman could have let herself be put in that situation." And I would never have let a man talk to me that way. It's so obvious from talking with her. >> And she's talking about the alleged victim, correct? [01:03:04] >> Yes. She's talking about the alleged victim and she's saying, "I don't know how that victim could have let that happen to her. I don't know how that victim could have let that man speak to her that way." And it's so obvious that she doesn't even understand the definition of clergy sexual abuse. And yet, this is the woman on the team of three doing their internal investigation into this claim and this situation, right? So, that was shocking. And then she goes further to talk about leader X, the one who ha who was the abuser in that situation. She says basically, well, God qualifies the called. And I think that's a really common phrase in why women in general that they use as an [01:03:49] excuse to justify anyone they want being in a leadership position, whether or not they have good character or whether or not they have any experience or qualifications for it. So, she's basically saying like leader X was called and qualified by God. It doesn't matter necessarily [clears throat] what his character is or was or what his experience is or was. And I think it was she was also kind of using that when she was talking about my concerns with people handling the situation or the leaders of our team who didn't seem to have enough understanding of how to work with people who were going through abuse or trauma or how to have good character working with other people. And she was like, "Well, God calls the qualifies the [01:04:32] called." You know, they don't have to have those experiences. They don't have to know how to be kind to people. If God called them, that's why they're in that position. So, that was the end of that. >> So, that's like on the back burner of you going into he this meeting with Darlene. A like during all of this, Lauren also gave a speech. Correct. >> Yeah. Lauren. Yes. Lauren came and spoke to the campus staff. So, every week there's a very large campus staff meeting and Kona campus is is maybe 700 people or something like it's a very there's a lot of people. So, there were several hundred staff members and Lauren does not typically come to the staff [01:05:17] meetings. He does, but it's not very often. Like I said, he at this time he was much older and sick. So, it was kind of a rare moment. He basically comes to the staff meeting and at this time I think the mostly the only people on the campus who know that there is some sort of legal action happening against WWIM because because of this and that there's been an issue of clergy sexual abuse accusations or claims and stuff like that would be our internal team for the most part the EVPN team and we were a smaller group of maybe 25 people or something. Yeah, about 25 people. And so Lauren comes out and the conversation is very much so him sharing a story how they started Ywin back in the day and [01:06:03] people from the county people from the state came to the campus and they were like oh are you guys what are you guys are you guys volunteers are you employees like things like that and Lauren was like oh we're just volunteers so we don't have to follow the same laws rules regulations that protect employees, right? Because they're just volunteers. And they were like, "So, if we want to get rid of you at any time, we can get rid of you." You know, basically, they come and they coach everyone to be like, "What are you a volunteer? If anyone asks you what are you, I'm a volunteer." And this was this was significant for some of the legal action that was happening. And it was just blatant coaching of the entire community, right, without them realizing [01:06:45] it. And then it gets a little bit worse because then it goes into or what I feel is a little bit worse and then it goes into him being like, you know, I have been praying a lot and I really feel like at this season of time, the next several years, the tactics of the enemy, the attacks are going to come in the form of lawsuits and legal action. And so he essentially tells the entire community that if anyone takes legal action, goes to the police or does any lawsuits, they are evil and they are obviously working for the enemy. And that's what he tells the entire community. And I'm just sitting here being like, what in the world is [01:07:28] happening? I'm like, where am I that I'm witnessing like this craziness? This can't be real, can it? But no, I mean there's >> Was anybody else? Were you sensing that anyone else was like, "What in the heck is happening right now?" >> It was just me. Just me. I It felt like it was just me, you know? But it's such a huge campus. >> You don't know, right? >> I don't know. >> And these two things happen leading up to you being let go. >> No, I think that conversation from Lauren may have happened a week or several days after I was let go. Something like that. So all of this is happening at the same time. >> It's all happening at the same time >> basically. >> And you are the one person that you're aware of that's just raised [01:08:12] any concerns and in the middle of that >> other than the woman who was basically like excommunicated from the entire community. Right. >> Right. Well, I mean she's clearly the devil according to Lauren. >> Oh, they're so awful. It was so awful. >> So you get let go. >> Uhhuh. >> In the middle of this while you're raising concerns. >> Mhm. Wow. You leave. What happens right after you get let go? I got like chills. It's so yucky. >> I know. So, so I get let go. I still kind of hang around the campus for a bit. And then I had planned and connected with a deaf organization that does Bible. Actually, it's not a deaf organization. It's an organization with a team within it that's focused on deaf communities and Bible translation into [01:08:56] sign languages. and I had worked with them and they wanted to come visit the campus and build relationship and build connections with YWAM in general. And so they were like, "Hey, we want to come visit." And I had gotten permission for them to come to stay on campus. And it was really exciting. That was very exciting. And I was not allowed to be a part of it. But pri but about a week before they were set to come, there was a Bible translation seminar happening in at YWAM LA that I was invited to. So I I knew a woman in Germany that I had met and worked with and things like that. And she also similarly had a lot of passion [01:09:38] for deaf communities and I basically said to her, "Hey, I'm not allowed to be a part of this anymore, but you love the deaf community. Like I love the deaf community and I want to see them treated well and I want to see good things happen in WWAM on behalf of deaf people. Would you consider coming for this time when these leaders from this other group will be on campus and sort of like hosting them? And she agreed. She said, "Yeah, I'll come." And so on her way over to Kona for that, she was stopping and going to the YWM LA seminar. And so she said, "Am I also doing this seminar? [01:10:23] I think it's something you'd be interested in. Let me ask them if you can come join us for that because you'd probably really like it and then we can hang out in person a bit." And so she did. And they actually said, "Yes, Skyla. We know Skyla. Please, that would be great. She can come." And so they paid for my plane tickets and my food and housing. and I went over to LA for a week or two maybe or something like that. Maybe it was two weeks and have a great time. And while I'm there, one of the members from NBible Poverty Now shows up one weekend and I didn't realize that she was coming and she was she was essentially leader D's assistant and that was really triggering and like PTSD firing all over the place when that [01:11:06] happened. And so I'm I like leave and I actually run into someone that I know and I sit and talk to them for a while and and stuff like that. But because of that, she realizes that I'm there and like kind of what's going on, I guess. And she must have contacted someone back in Kona who calls up the leaders of the seminar at YMLA to tell them and warn them about me. Essentially to warn them about me and be like, "Hey, da da da da." And their biggest warning, and this is like something that I think is still the lynch pin for them to this day, I think, is they will tell people, "Hey, Skyla had the opportunity to meet with Darlene [01:11:49] Cunningham about this and she refused to meet with Darlene Cunningham. We just talked about the fact that I was kicked off the team literally before being allowed to meet with Darlene Cunningham, right?" And so I was not allowed to meet with her, but they keep saying that I was. And so within these circles at this time, that was kind of like a big bad sin of like, oh my gosh, you refused to meet with Darlene Cunningham. It's your own fault if you're upset. You should have done that. You were given that opportunity. And I'm sitting down with this YWAM LA seminar leader and I'm saying, "Hey, listen. That's not true. I was told I wasn't allowed to meet with her because I was kicked off the team. I would like to meet with her. If you can [01:12:33] set that up and give me that opportunity, I will take it. Thank you. And she blatantly looks me in the eye and she says, "That's not true." Because the person I talked to said that you did have the opportunity and you said no. And they wouldn't tell me who she talked to. She wouldn't tell me who she had spoken to. Feels a little stalkerish right there. Maybe. >> You go back on base. You're visiting your friends, doing your thing, and when you're back on base, you run into leader D, or I guess leader D sees you. What happened in that interaction? >> Right. Yeah. So, I'm back on base. I was invited by several people and I actually went to lunch with some of those people from that deaf translation organization, [01:13:17] the sign language organization. They had sent me like private emails on my personal email account and had been like, "Hey, are you going to come join us for lunch? can't wait to see you. Things like that, right? And so I'm like, "Yeah, I would love to join you guys for lunch." And so I send a message to one of the women on the End Bible Poverty Now team and I text her and I'm like, "Hey, I was thinking about going and having lunch with these guys at the public cafeteria on the campus or not the public cafeteria, but you know, like the large open area, not in any offices, whatever." But I just wanted to make sure that it's not going to be like an end Bible poverty now like gathering group lunch because I don't want to step on anybody's toes. And she says like, [01:14:00] "Oh yeah, we're not having lunch with them. That's not part of the plan. You should totally go that. Yeah, you'll be fine." And so I'm like, "Okay, great." I go, I show up. We have a great time, etc., etc. I see several of the endible poverty now leaders and different men, and no one says anything to me. I had one of them come up and give me a hug. Like it's it's like there's no bad feelings necessarily or at least it's all pleasantries like fake pleasantries or whatever you know. >> And I just want to clarify one more time in YWAM. This is my understanding in YWAM you can be placed in different teams at different times. It's not volunteer. You raise your own money and you are getting paid. You were never kicked out of YWAM. Correct. >> Right. I was never kicked out of [01:14:42] >> You were just removed from the Ed Bible Poverty Now team, right? >> Yes. Yes. Technically, you have funds at WWAM to pay you. >> No. So, so it's all so it's all personal finance raising. So, you only have whatever finance people give you. I was working part-time the whole time. >> So, they they don't pay >> they don't they didn't pay me. I think I only got one donation and it was like right around this time and someone sent me $50 is the first time anyone had actually sent me any money through YWAM and they kept my $50 cuz I technically wasn't on the team anymore. So you were not picked out of YWAM though, like you technically could have joined another team if you felt like you wanted to and they wanted you. [01:15:23] >> Yes. Yes. >> So let's put this in a more easily understandable terms. Imagine you are a part of a church community like a mega church and you serve on the hospitality team and you have a weird interaction there. The leader of that team removes you from their team. you are still allowed to go to that church and you could join another team unless it's explicitly said, "Hey, you're actually not allowed back on campus anymore." >> Mhm. >> Right. Is this kind of Okay. So, so you're at lunch in a community that you've been pouring into for years without ever being told you can't be there. Correct. >> Correct. >> All right. Let's dig deeper. >> So, after that lunch, I meet up with my [01:16:06] friend. We go to the little coffee shop and we're sitting there maybe about an hour drinking some iced tea, looking at the geckos in the ocean and whatnot, just like hanging out for about an hour and we say goodbye to each other and she goes one direction towards her car and I go the other direction towards my car and I see leader D working at a table kind of around the corner a little bit further away and his head is down. is working on his computer. And I think to myself, if I turn around and walk the other direction, it'll call it'll call more attention to me than if I just keep walking and pretend not to see him. So, I just walk right by him and pretend not to see him. And I have to walk across [01:16:50] most of the campus to get to where I had parked. So, I'm walking across most of the campus to get up to where I parked. And once I get kind of close to my car, I see that he's kind of like down the ways on the phone, kind of just like walking around on his phone. And I don't think anything of it at all. I just think, okay, he's living his own life. I'm living my own life. I get into my car and then he's kind of like in the parking lot area walking around on his phone. And I'm like, okay, well, I don't want to pull out and him have to wait for me and I have to like see him. I'm going to give him his space. I'll just wait a minute or two for him to kind of like clear out and I'll pull out and I'll drive off campus. So, he kind of walks down. He's gone and I pull out and I'm driving off campus and I have to be [01:17:33] 10 15 ft from the exit gate of the campus and he waves me down and he's waving me down on the side of the road and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I don't want to talk to you at all." But I was raised with manners that said I should that I should talk to people who were waving me down apparently. But I honestly no truly in my mind I was thinking what if he wants to apologize? I should give him the opportunity to apologize. And so I pull over and I roll my window down and he comes up and he says, "Hey, I'm on the phone but I want to talk to you. Can you can you pull over and wait for me just a minute?" And I say, "Okay, I should have just left at that point." [01:18:18] Anyway, so I say, "Okay." And so I kind of do like a U-turn in the parking lot so that I'm not blocking traffic like right in front of the gate because people wouldn't be able to get out cuz I was the first car in line to get out of campus. And so I kind of turn around and I'm feeling really anxious actually. You know, again, like my body is like shaking and anxious or whatever. And I see one of the girls from one of the women from our team and I say, "Hey, I'm feeling really anxious." leader D just like stopped me and wants to talk to me. I have no idea what he wants. Can you pray with me so I can, you know, be calm? And she says, "Yeah, of course." That's odd. And so she prays with me and I actually feel really peaceful and calm and I'm feeling better. And so I kind of pull up and I'm like, "Hey, what's up?" [01:19:00] And he comes over and he says, "I've called campus security. You're not allowed to be here and you need to wait here. They're coming right down. And I my heart drops. My stomach drops. Mind you, like there have not been good like encounters with this person so far. And I'm just like, what is going on? And I say to him, I say, "Hey, I need to go. I can't wait around for that." And I take the five feet it takes or whatever to pull out of the gate and drive off. And I drive off. And I actually go I drive off and I go see my mom and I'm telling her what's happened and whatnot. [01:19:44] And I get home and she's home and I get a Facebook message from someone from the campus and they send me a screenshot of a post that they put on their YWAM Kona workplace which is basically a private Facebook for anyone who's either a student or staff at the YWA Kona campus and that's where the craziness continues. So, can you share just so I just want to keep going because there's just so much. What did the post actually say? >> So, the post basically said that I wasn't allowed on campus and that I refused to leave campus when asked and [01:20:29] it said that I was I think it said that I was being disruptive. So, I was being disruptive and refused to leave campus when asked or that I said that I wouldn't leave campus even if I was asked or something like that. But I was never asked to leave campus and I would not have gone to campus if I knew that they were going to like treat me like that and like call security on me. Who wants that? Yeah. So, that was really intense. And I think also it it felt like being publicly shamed is really what it felt like, you know? It felt like here's this person or these people, leader A, leader D, with all of this power just like trashing me to the entire campus community. And it was it [01:21:13] was heartbreaking. And I I felt so much fear of even going out in the community after that. I was afraid to go into Target and be seen. Like I it was it was so mean of them to to treat me like that. And I called up S who is head of the security and I basically explained the situation to him. I was like, "Hey, I will not come on campus if you don't want me on campus. No one told me I wasn't on allowed on campus." And he says, "Sounds like you have a personal issue with the EBPN team. I I'm not in charge of that. You have to work it out with them. when they tell me that it's all worked out, then I can take the post [01:21:55] down. Anyway, so he basically refused to take the post down even though I was telling him like I told him, hey, I have a PTSD diagnosis and it blatantly names leader D and leader A in it. I have told you I will not come on that campus. Can you please remove this? And I'm telling you it's not true. And he basically says to me, well, can you send me the PTSD diagnosis? maybe I'll consider taking it down if you send me that. And then he says like you have to work it out with EVPN leaders. Like it's not up to me. Like it sounds like it's a personal issue between you and them or something like that. And then I have all these people, maybe a dozen different people who call him multiple times and all send [01:22:40] him emails vouching for my character being like, "Hey, you're wrong. This is wrong." He refuses to take it down over and over and over again. He just said he won't take it down. he refuses to to the point where that week my mom is a teacher at a local school, right? And so everything's interconnected. We're on an island in a small community and one of the teachers who's like somehow connected to WWAM comes up to my mom and says like, "Is Skyla okay? I saw what they posted. What are they doing?" And I think anybody reaching out to me and being like, "Oh my gosh, Skyla, like I saw the post. What is going on? That's so not you." And I think it's kind of funny because if you were to picture me, typically I'm smiling and wearing [01:23:24] tie-dye t-shirts [laughter] and so and boopping around and I work with kids all the time and so I'm usually like singing songs, working with kids. Like I'm not the typical scary person you're going to see on on a campus, right? And so most people are are like that. And I think the woman that I met with the next day for lunch, we had planned to meet the next day for lunch. We met off campus. We were planning to meet on campus. And she says to me, "Oh my goodness, it's so ridiculous. Leader D is just being a big baby. I don't know what's up with that." And she's like, "Can I start laughing at it now? Did you see the picture that they used?" They're like, "Did they see your smiling face? Like, do they know who you are?" And it was just kind of that was the response that I got from so [01:24:07] many people which was really wonderful response because I just had so many people saying such kind things and just being really kind and supportive of me after that which is good but it was so devastating and detrimental I think for my mental health as well. >> Yeah, it's horrible. >> Yes, that's all horrible. Is it still up to this day? What happens next? I guess it aged out. So, I guess it automatically like goes away after it's been up for a certain amount of months or a year or something like that. So, they never took it down. It just went away supposedly. I did talk to someone, a leader, a female leader met with me and talked to me about it and her response was, "Well, no one really checks the security page of the YWIN [01:24:52] workplace anyway, so I wouldn't really worry about it." was her response, which just seems so just a really passive response, I guess. >> Oh gosh, I'm so sorry. So, I mean, that's clearly unsettling in all so many ways and far-reaching consequences for you in your life and your ability to just like function in community whatsoever. You do end up having some conversations with the abuse response team. Correct. >> Mhm. >> So, how does that come about? >> Yeah. So sometime later, maybe a couple weeks or a month or so later, maybe even longer, I don't remember exactly, I guess. So sometime later, I learned that they have started what's called an abuse [01:25:36] response team. And they started it probably in response to the woman who brought up the clergy sexual abuse allegations. But at that same time, they were having other sexual abuse allegations that came forward that involved children. And so they start what's called an abuse response team, and they have an email for it. And I send off an email and I send it to DH. I send it to Darlene Cunningham. I think I sent it to like Lauren or Darlene or something like that. Or I at least I address it to them. I send it to leader A and I send it to the abuse response team. And I also I think I sent I sent it to my pastor and stuff like that. So I just sent sent out this email and basically the email is like, "Hey, a lot of things have gone astray. This is a [01:26:20] bit of my experience. please don't stalk me across campus or something like that. Or like I think it I think it also kind of came after I was at my community church and I had one of the leaders come up to me [clears throat] from behind and and kind of start to talk to me and I was so shocked and surprised and I had so much PTSD at this this time. so many symptoms of PTSD at this time that my legs went out and I got so weak that I like stumbled because I was so shocked and like afraid to see him and he wasn't even one of the leaders that was lead like head of wasn't one of the leaders that like let me go or fired me wasn't one of the ones who I had really any issues with it was just the reminder of [01:27:03] that team and the people on that team and so it kind of came after that and I realized like to feel safe in my community I really just would like you guys to not talk to me if you see me in public. Like, can you give me space? That'd be great. And can you stop posting these things about me? And so, I think that that letter was kind of a little bit of like, can you take down the post? Can you not be mean to me anymore was bit of my ask, right? I got a response maybe a week later that said, "We got your email and we will send it to the appropriate people." And that was like the end of that email response. And I did and I sent an email back I think that said something like, "Can you give [01:27:45] me more information about that? Like what does that mean? What does that look like?" And I did not hear back from them for 6 months. So I gave up essentially at that point. I was like, "Okay, like I'm done. I'm moving on. Like what am I going to there's nothing more that I want to do. There's nothing more that I can do to pursue this." Right? 6 months later, I get an email from a woman, let's call her C, and she says, "Hey, I've kind of been asked to jump in and help and talk to you and kind of see where you're at and see if I can do anything to help like restore or bring restoration or something like that." And that felt really good. She seemed to be really engaging with the conversations. [01:28:28] She seemed to be a bit more basic, knowledgeable about what abuse is and she seemed pretty, you know, to some extent competent and willing and wanting to help restore things there. That's a whole story within itself and not too much came out of that. We did I did get a draft letter from YWM leadership who said that they were willing to redact the public post about me. And so they did give a draft letter that they were proposing. They were like, "Hey, we would be willing to to post this basically." And it basically said like, "I'm allowed back on campus." That's about it. Like I'm allowed back on campus for the most part is kind of what [01:29:09] it was. It wasn't necessarily an apology, but it w it wasn't terrible either in my opinion. But that never got put up or posted because one of Leader D's roommates, basically one of the people who lived in the same home with him and DH, the like leader of Wyom at that time, other than Lauren Cunningham, kind of came forward and said, "Hey, I wouldn't want Sky back on campus." And so they kind of cut that and never pursued it again. Right. That's kind of where that left off at. Meanwhile, the uh other guy who was accused of clergy sexual abuse, I'm sure got you know what, slap on the wrist or >> last last I heard he was not he's not allowed to be a leader in WWAM anymore. He did he did leave the island with his [01:29:53] family and I do I I don't know what happened from there on but there are a lot of WW bases. >> So you leave WWAM, right? And you leave WWAM which of course why wouldn't you? I mean good god. I mean, she left. >> Yeah, >> they kicked her out. >> Kicked her out. I mean, you couldn't do anything. So, but you're you cut ties with YWAM is the best way probably to say it. >> Is there anything else you'd like to share about that time or from your story that you think would be helpful? I think what I'd like to share is just I think it's so easy to if you're in the mindset of WWAM to listen to a story like this and pick out anything that's [01:30:40] going to align with your idea that Wim is great or that these things could not have happened the way that I'm saying that they happened because it it's easy to believe what you want to believe and I really wish that back then I would have believed the people who told me that they had had bad experiences with WWAM and I wish I would have believed them and I wish that I would have left when it was time to leave. And I think I also just want to mention like it's hard to bring up and talk about these things. It's very hard in so many ways. physically hard, emotionally hard, but it's also hard because I still love so [01:31:23] many of those people from my team, right? I still really love them. And so my goal in saying this and sharing this is to share my story that was never shared, but to hopefully help someone in the future who can be like, "Hey, I what I'm seeing is true and trust God. Trust myself. It's time to leave." You know, don't cling. Don't stay when you know it's time to go. There's a lot that happened and there's a lot that still happens and there's a lot of good that I've been able to do with my passions and with my life outside of YWAM and I almost feel like there's an even greater [01:32:08] freedom outside of YWAM now than I had while I was in YWAM. And I'm really glad that I made the choice that I made. You know, it really was it felt like a choice between what was my ethical duty or what was right and kind of staying silent and continuing with what positions I had and choosing to do what was right. I think it did pay off. It's made me a better person. It's allowed me to connect with more people. And as I continue in my community every day, I meet people and I'm like, "Yeah, I didn't have a great experience with WWAM." And their response is like, "Oh yeah, I know. Biden either or my auntie or my uncle or my sister or my nieces or my nephew were [01:32:53] abused in WWAM. And so the story just goes on and on and on. There's so much validation when you leave WWAM. When you come out of it and you start saying, "Hey, I didn't have a great experience in WWAM." you're going to be able to find dozens and dozens, hundreds of stories of people who are like, I have been so hurt by YWAM and you are not alone. Whereas when you are within YWAM, anyone who has a bad experience with YWAM is kind of like demonized or they pretend that people don't really have bad experiences with YWAM. So that's a lot of my thoughts. I would just say one, thank you for sharing your story, especially with how much how much it impacted you. And it totally makes sense [01:33:36] that it did impact you as much as it did. It was just so wildly escalated and out of control and confusing the whole time. And I love seeing that you are making steps towards healing and growing community and a life outside of YWAM, the YWAM bubble that you described. I will say that if you're listening and you made it this far and you're somebody that's still in WWAM, the God of the Bible is not going to ask you or require of you to be silent in the face of injustice or abuse in order to be safe or in order to further whatever mission [01:34:21] you are on. That is not the character of the God that you claim to serve. servant that you claim to be in a life of ministry for. So if you are finding yourself in a scenario where you're not allowed to ask questions or you're not allowed to raise concerns, especially when there is abuse or when there's marginalized communities that are being affected, that is something that you really need to pause and investigate for yourself. And if that looks like going to people outside of YWAM and explaining what you're experiencing and getting feedback so that you can continue to be safe in that place, I encourage you to do so. My whole life I was told God's not a god of [01:35:06] confusion, right? And that was kind of thrown at me like you're asking questions which means you're confused which means there's something wrong with you, right? Like you're not trusting God. But I actually to a degree think that that is applicable. It's just been twisted against those of us that are in confusing scenarios like what Skyla has explained today in her story. If you're feeling confused because the character of your leaders in a ministry does not align with the character of God, then the confusion isn't something wrong with you. The confusion is something wrong with the ministry that you're in. So, I'll just leave it at that. investigate as you want. Skyla, you did an amazing job. I'm so sorry for [01:35:50] what you experienced and I'm so grateful that you came and shared your story with us today. >> I'm so glad you guys have the space where I can share my story. Thank you so much. I have one other thought exiting WWAM and cutting ties with YWAM living in Kona and connecting with friends and family and new people that I met. When I would bring up WWAM or a bit of my experience, I had such an empathetic response. I would have people who could say I have experienced the same thing. I would have people who could say my sister was in Wom and she was abused. I had people who could say my daughter or my son was in Wim and [01:36:33] they were abused. And it and those stories span the entire history of Bioam Kona from when it had originated until now and continuing continuing stories that I continue to hear of. And it's it's validating for me, but it's also heartbreaking and really sad to just see that this is continuing even as I know Yom has implemented new leadership structures. Lauren has passed away and so they have different kind of structures now. And I hear that they are trying to be more aware and more cautious to support people and help with abuse situations, but the abuse continues, right? This culture of abuse continues and it it's devastating and [01:37:15] it's really sad. I think once I began talking about it, people that knew me while I was in YM that I was friends with began to feel comfortable enough to share their own stories of abuse that they had never shared with me before. Right? And just this collective understanding of this is very common. It's not isolated incidents, but it's so well hidden and it's so well covered up and anyone who does not fall in line is kicked out. And because so many people travel here to be a part of WWAM, when they leave WWAM, they're no longer on the island. And so their voice is so effectively cut out, right? And I was in this bit of an odd situation where I'm [01:37:59] from this island. And so being like kicked out of YWAM or fired from YWAM, I was still here to speak with people and to see the response and to to be able to continue to have a voice. And I think that's part of what's so important to me is to give voice to so many numerous people that I personally know on this island who have been harmed by Yona and continue to be. >> Thank you, Skyla. And hey, uh, if they're trying to be more aware of abuse and change something structurally, you can't do that without taking the time to actually investigate and listen to the abuse that has happened in your organization thus far. And you can't be [01:38:42] afraid of hearing those stories and you can't shun people or shut them up when they try to tell you. So, hey, if you're trying to actually make a change, YW wham, uh it starts with not demonizing people for speaking up when they experience harm and welcoming that because you don't want that to be in your spaces. >> Thank you, Skyler, for joining us on the podcast today. It was an honor to have you. It was an honor [music] to hear your story. Thank you so much for your courage and your bravery. Next week we will continue our series on YWAM as we welcome another storyteller to the podcast. Thank you for supporting us. Thank you [01:39:24] for listening. And for Ja Harris, I am Jay Coyle and this is the Bodies Behind the Bus podcast. >> [music] [music] [music] >> The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed here are the speaker's own and not those of this podcast. This content is presented forformational and [01:40:08] educational purposes that constitute fair use, commentary, or criticism. While we make every effort to ensure that the information shared is accurate, we welcome any comment, suggestion, or correction of errors., Skyla's Story / YWAM Kona, HI, Janna Harris and Jay Coyle (The Bodies Behind The Bus), 01m3cybq2ryq4jtnh8wag4h9hk.