The Adult(ery) Episode  ## Metadata - Author: [[Data Over Dogma]] - Full Title: The Adult(ery) Episode - Category: #articles - Document Note: --- tags: [Biblical-ethics, Hosea, Adultery] author: [MISSING] source: Data Over Dogma (YouTube) reference: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nkm6_nzl8k] date created: {{date:YYYY-MM-DD}} {{time:HH:mm}} --- # 🏷️ Title: The Adult(ery) Episode ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Prep quick explainer on adultery as property law — context/00:08:10 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nkm6_nzl8k&t=490 #articleseed - [H2] Draft side-by-side OT/NT sexual-ethic table — context/00:14:59 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nkm6_nzl8k&t=899 #xref - [H3] Add consent-first language to community policies — context/00:26:49 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nkm6_nzl8k&t=1609 #addendum - [H4] Build Hosea timeline one-pager for newcomers — context/00:36:40 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nkm6_nzl8k&t=2200 #articleseed - [H5] Create “translation pitfalls in Hosea” cheat sheet — context/00:44:51 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nkm6_nzl8k&t=2691 #articleseed - [H6] Write short note on Baal title vs. deity — context/00:52:00 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nkm6_nzl8k&t=3120 #xref - [H7] Share consent resources with WP organizers — context/00:31:05 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nkm6_nzl8k&t=1865 #share - [H8] Pitch The WPCC session on “evidence vs. rhetoric” — context/00:24:52 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nkm6_nzl8k&t=1492 #share - [H9] Seed post on prophetic “restoration” delays — context/01:00:37 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nkm6_nzl8k&t=3637 #articleseed ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - Include links cited in or relevant to the article. ## 📝 Summary - Two scholars unpack adultery across biblical contexts. - They show Hebrew Bible adultery centers property rights. - They contrast Greco-Roman influenced New Testament ethics. - They analyze Hosea’s marriage metaphor and restoration theme. - They condemn rape apologetics and stress consent. - Bottom line: context changes definitions and duties. Sources matter. ## 📖 Main Content - The Hebrew Bible treats adultery as property damage to men. See [H1], [H2]. - Men face fewer limits when women are unbetrothed or enslaved. See [H1]. - The New Testament reframes desire and conduct under ascetic ideals. See [H3]. - Hosea uses a marital metaphor for Israel’s covenant breach. See [H4], [H6]. - Translation choices shape meaning in Hosea’s charged passages. See [H5]. - Prophetic “restoration” is promised repeatedly yet deferred. See [H8]. - Rape apologetics using 1 Cor 7 is rejected. Consent is required. See [H7]. - Terms defined: “Baal” as title vs. foreign god; “Ephraim” as Israel. - Uncertainties remain on Hosea’s composition layers and dating. ### 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:08:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nkm6_nzl8k&t=490) Adultery as property violation ### [H1] Hebrew Bible adultery protects male ownership > [!quote] [The Adult(ery) Episode](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nkm6_nzl8k) by an unnamed author via [[Data Over Dogma]]. Published [MISSING]. Accessed {{date:YYYY-MM-DD}}. > “It is a property rights issue…women are the property of men.” Consent ethics differ across eras; cite legal texts for nuance. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nkm6_nzl8k&t=490) #xref ID:yt_8nkm6_0810 #### ⏱️ [00:12:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nkm6_nzl8k&t=769) Penalties by status ### [H2] Penalties hinge on woman’s legal status > [!quote] > “Severity…depends upon who is asserting rights over the woman.” Map Exodus 22 and Deut 22 to case outcomes. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nkm6_nzl8k&t=769) #xref ID:yt_8nkm6_1249 #### ⏱️ [00:19:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nkm6_nzl8k&t=1147) Greco-Roman influence ### [H3] NT sexual ethic adopts ascetic philosophy > [!quote] > “Sexual desire [seen] as baser urge of the corrupt flesh.” Note Plato’s dualism and its Christian uptake. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nkm6_nzl8k&t=1147) #articleseed ID:yt_8nkm6_1907 #### ⏱️ [00:31:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nkm6_nzl8k&t=1865) Consent and marriage ### [H7] 1 Corinthians 7 misused to excuse coercion > [!quote] > “Apologetics for marital rape…is abominable.” Add explicit consent clauses in policies. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nkm6_nzl8k&t=1865) #addendum ID:yt_8nkm6_3105 #### ⏱️ [00:36:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nkm6_nzl8k&t=2200) Eighth-century setting ### [H4] Hosea addresses pre-exilic northern kingdom > [!quote] > “Hosea is writing…before 722 BCE.” Place events relative to Assyrian conquest. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nkm6_nzl8k&t=2200) #xref ID:yt_8nkm6_3640 #### ⏱️ [00:44:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nkm6_nzl8k&t=2691) Translation pitfalls ### [H5] Hosea’s wording resists clean translation > [!quote] > “A wife of whoredoms…children of whoredoms.” Flag ambiguity without sanitizing the text. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nkm6_nzl8k&t=2691) #articleseed ID:yt_8nkm6_4451 #### ⏱️ [00:52:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nkm6_nzl8k&t=3120) Baal vs. “my master” ### [H6] “Baal” functions as title and deity name > [!quote] > “‘Baal’ can mean lord, master, husband.” Explain local cults and titles. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nkm6_nzl8k&t=3120) #xref ID:yt_8nkm6_5200 #### ⏱️ [01:00:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nkm6_nzl8k&t=3637) Deferred restoration ### [H8] Prophetic restoration remains perpetually near > [!quote] > “Any minute now…it doesn’t happen.” Track how timelines shift across texts. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nkm6_nzl8k&t=3637) #articleseed ID:yt_8nkm6_6037 ## 📚 References - YouTube: The Adult(ery) Episode — Data Over Dogma. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nkm6_nzl8k - Exodus 20:14 (KJV/NRSV). https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+20%3A14&version=NRSVUE - Deuteronomy 22:22–29. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+22%3A22-29&version=NRSVUE - 1 Corinthians 7:1–5. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+7%3A1-5&version=NRSVUE - Council of Nicaea, Canon 1 (English). https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3801.htm - Hosea (Hebrew/English). https://www.sefaria.org/Hosea.1?lang=bi - Mary Magdalene misidentification overview. https://www.britannica.com/biography/Mary-Magdalene-biblical-figure ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - The hosts compare ancient and modern sexual ethics carefully. - They situate Hosea historically and critique coercive readings today. ## 📰 Newsletter - This week’s media pick explores adultery across traditions. - The episode clarifies law, metaphor, and consent. - Build better policies for meetups and forums using clear consent language. - Learn more with these resources: Learn WordPress (https://learn.wordpress.org), DevHub (https://developer.wordpress.org), WordPress.tv (https://wordpress.tv), Playground labs (https://playground.wordpress.net). - Share this with organizers and The WPCC leaders for policy reviews. ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Publish a concise Hosea context explainer with diagrams. - Run office hours on “reading translations responsibly.” - Add example-first docs referencing consent in examples. #### OSPO - Add “consent and conduct” guidance to contribution charters. - Document citation standards for ethics claims in READMEs. - Establish review cadence for policy language with legal. #### Community - Host code-of-conduct clinics using case studies. - Offer pairing sessions for moderation teams on tricky reports. - Publis - Summary: Ooooh... this week's show is keeping it SPICY! First we're going to tackle what might at first feel like one of the least controversial of the Ten Commandments. But if you've listened to this show, you know that's almost never the case. So when the Bible says "thou shalt not commit adultery," what is it really getting at? Then we dive into the book of Hosea, which comes out swinging, and only gets weirder. What does it mean that God tells Hosea to take a wife of prostitution? And why would God want that? Is there really a context in which that makes sense? ---- For early access to an ad-free version of every episode of Data Over Dogma, exclusive content, and the opportunity to support our work, please consider becoming a monthly patron at: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/DataOverDogma⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠      Follow us on the various social media places: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/DataOverDogmaPod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.twitter.com/data_over_dogma⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Have you ordered Dan McClellan's New York Times bestselling book ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Bible Says So⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ yet??? - URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nkm6_nzl8k or I will will remove the name of the balls from her mouth. >> Well, the names the names of the balls. >> The names of the balls. >> Yeah. Thunder and lightning. Um, >> Donner and Blitzen. All right. >> If the left one don't get you, then the right one will. Um, [Music] >> hey everybody. I'm Dan Mlelen. >> And I'm Dan Beecher. And you're listening to the Data Over Dogma podcast, where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion, and we combat the spread of misinformation about the same. How go things today, Dan? >> Things go well for me. You're you're back under the weather, I think, a little bit. >> Uh, a little bit. I'm I'm on the I'm on the uh end of it. Yeah, >> I'm guessing that our listeners will forgive a little bit of a nasal resonance coming out of him. >> Hopefully. Yeah, I think sometimes it can make the baritone a little more pleasing, >> a little a little sexier. >> All right. All right. Going for sexy, everybody. >> Well, when I was a when I was a missionary, there was uh there was a time I called into the mission office. I was uh into the mission home. I was in the offices. I was the the finance. I was the financial secretary for several months. And uh I had a great relationship, still do with my mission president's wife, Julie. She was wonderful. We all called her La Armana. Uh but one day I I called in. I had a cold and I was uh and I was like, "Hey, is the president there?" And she was like, "Who is this?" Like, "Elder Mlen." She's like, "Your voice sounds really sexy, Elder Mlen." And that that made me deeply uncomfortable. But um >> there you go. I like it. >> But shout out to Julie. She's awesome. >> What did you call her? Laosa. What? What do you call >> Larana? >> La Armana. The woman. >> The sister. >> The Oh, the sister. That's what it That's what it is. >> Yeah. >> Um and >> so, uh yeah. Anyway, moving beyond my extreme discomfort with that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Let's uh let's cl into a show. I think we can do it. Uh today we're going to be uh doing a couple of fun segments. >> And we're keeping it sexy. Uh I think uh I think we're going to keep the theme sex themed throughout the entire show. We're bringing sexy way back. Way back. >> Way back to the >> 2800 years almost. >> Yeah, exactly. We're we're going we're going as far back as as we can comfortably go. Uh the first thing we're going to do, we're going to we're going to do an it's the law. We haven't done one of these for a little while. >> Yeah. >> And uh and that's going to be one of one of the one of the top 10 of all of the commandments. >> Uh >> of all the ten commandments, this is one of them. >> It is one of them. and uh and it is and it is the one about adultery. So, let's that that'll be fun. And then >> we're gonna there's an unassuming book just sort of buried in the middle of uh of the Hebrew Bible called Hosea. >> Hosea. We don't talk about it a lot. A lot of people don't know what what's going on with Hosea, unless of course they're scholars of the Old Testament or the Hebrew Bible, in which case they know >> Hosea is a big deal. >> Okay. And and we're going to talk about why Hosea is a big deal. >> Yeah. Yeah. uh beyond just how often it references sex work. Uh but >> if if Hosea was a person, it would come up to you at a party and say, "I'm kind of a big deal." So, >> all right, >> that and that joke has levels. So, anyway, >> yeah, that'll be our that'll be our chapter and verse in the second half of the show. But first off, it's the law. >> Breaking the law. Breaking the law. Or as as the great poet said, scraping the jaw. Scraping the jaw. >> Oh, okay. >> That was a >> I can't do that laugh anymore. My voice does not do the the crack with the laugh. Um, >> you can't do the You can't be >> No, not as much as I used to be able to when I was younger. I could do the >> Yeah, I can't. All right. Uh, so here's the thing. We're talking about I don't even know which of the ten commandments it is. I guess this is >> well it's verse it's uh Exodus 20 verse14. Yeah there and there's a >> just depend on how you count. >> Yeah. This is a little inside baseball but uh I uh I have taught primary um multiple times in my >> that's the uh the child classes in in Mormon. Yeah. >> Yes. And um my my students come out of there knowing more than their parents do uh about the Bible. >> No one's surprised to hear that. >> No, no, no, no, no. And and one of the things one year I was like, "Guess what all y'all? You're memorizing the Ten Commandments." and uh and those kids came out of there knowing the ten commandments and I used uh an uh a little I don't even remember what they what you call it an initialism where you you have like a little narrative that you and for for the Mormons I I would say why I never see President uh Monson at Salt Lake. And um so you got uh you got worship, you got idols, uh you got the name, you got um the Sabbath, uh and then P is for parents, and then Monson is uh murder, at is adultery, uh Salt Lake is or steal, lie, and then Salt Lake City, C is covet. >> So if you can if you can remember that, you can remember all ten commandments. So uh why I never see President Monson at So that's the seventh commandment. Yeah, there you according to according to the um a Protestant numbering of the the >> That's right. As as we have discussed, there are many different ways that you can enumerate the commandments and 10 is not really uh a very good number for them. >> No, no, you could you could count more than that. Although uh we've already talked about how Exodus 34 is the only place where it actually refers to the set of commandments as 10 >> and it's not these ones. >> And it's not these ones. No, it's the uh you shall not boil a kid in its uh mother's milk uh and stuff like that. >> Yeah. Something something about yeast and uh and bread and who knows the festival stuff like that. >> Yeast. I don't know. It's just crazy. There is a reference in I think Deuteronomy 3 or 4 where it talks about these ten things and then Deuteronomy 5 recounts the ten commandments almost exactly as we find in Exodus 20, right? >> But yeah, you could divide it into a few different um numbers. So we got number seven. It's it's two short words in Hebrew. Loaf I mean enough said, right? Or enough said zing. Um yeah, but uh and that literally means you shall not commit adultery. >> Okay. And >> uh and that see that sounds straightforward. >> It sounds though easy. It sounds like oh we now know what that means. And here's the thing. I don't think we do. And the reason that I don't think we do and the and I'll let you elucidate this uh quite a lot but I but what what I noticed and maybe other astute listeners may have caught this as they did their own Bible study or as they listened to our show and heard stories about all of these characters and whatever. Um the Bible's totally fine with a lot of things that we consider adultery now. >> Yes. Yes. Uh the the Bible doesn't seem to care much when guys are out there getting their thing wet. Um and >> well, as long as >> as long as it's not with someone who belongs to another man, >> right? And and that's that. Yeah, that seems to be the crux of it, right? It's a property rights issue as much as anything. >> It is a property rights issue. A lot of people want to make this about uh like there's no parody here, >> right? >> Like there's it is very much uh a case of women are the property of men and and uh a man who is betrothed to a woman or married to a woman that that contractual relationship is considered sacrosan in that society because that's the relationship that facilitates procreation. And so that's what carries the society on, strengthens it, perpetuates it, protects it, all that kind of stuff. And so, uh, the adultery is really a a violation of those property rights, which is why a woman is prohibited from having any and all premarital or extrammarital sex. Period. >> A man is not, >> right? as long as the woman is not is not betrothed or married to someone else. So, a man is is legally not prohibited from going out and having sex with a sex worker >> or with a woman who is not betrothed or married to someone else. Uh whether he's married or not. And that's what a lot of people >> though there are like some sort of legalistic uh things that can happen like you know the the Bible does delineate again the this whoever this woman is >> if she is not married she is likely the property now of her father >> father right >> and her sexual uh inexperience is a commodity that he owns. Absolutely. If someone were to sleep with if if a man married or otherwise is to sleep with a woman, she he is violating her father's rights. Correct. In that respect, right? >> Yes. Yes. Now, now this is for this is for an Israelite. >> Okay. So, this is a freeborn >> Israelite orite because if she's a foreigner or if she is an enslaved girl or something like that, it doesn't really matter. But it it matters if she is eligible for proper Israelite marriage because her father then stands to benefit financially from that transaction. And so yes, it's a violation of his property rights. It's not as serious a violation. So we see in Exodus 22:16, we see in Deuteronomy 22:28 and 29 that uh Exodus 22:16 uses a word that a lot of scholars translate seduce. So, it's it's not clear that it is non-consensual. Um, there is some coercion going on. Maybe it might be sexual assault. It might not be. Deuteronomy 22:28 and 29 is clearly sexual assault. No matter what an apologist tells you, >> it is about sexual assault. They will make up all kinds of crap about the verb tapas and say it just means to handle. It just means he's handling her. You know, it's consensual. And that's garbage. Every time the object of the verb is a person, it means force. So, um anyway, in those two cases, uh the perpetrator owes the father an elevated bride price and then he is required to marry the girl cuz he she's damaged goods now. She's no longer uh eligible for proper Israelite marriage. And so the the penalty is like, well, you you you broke it, you bought it. >> Um, and >> can we since we're using uh fairly rough terminology for all of this? Yes. >> Can we make it clear that this is not >> our feeling about this is but this literally is exactly how the Bible treats these scenarios. >> Yes. Because the and and when you look in Deuteronomy 22:28 and 29 and and the the verses that lead up to it, 22 through uh 22 is one, 23 through through 27 is another segment. When you look at these things, the problem is that this has violated someone rights, which is why if if the woman is betrothed or married, the penalty for the the assaulter is death. If she's not betrothed or married, >> it's that elevated bride price and it's uh you've got to marry her. You're never allowed to divorce her. Her father can reject uh the marriage, however, and just take the money, >> right? >> Uh but what that indicates is that the severity of the punishment depends upon who is asserting rights over the woman's procreative capacities and sexual availability. Is it a husband, in which case, death? Uh, is it cake or death? Is you get death or you get the wedding cake from burying this girl? Uh, it's a case of cake or death. >> I I one wonders uh if Eddie Isard had this in mind. >> I I would not be surprised. Eddie Isard is a genius um on several levels. Um so it would not surprise me in the least. However, yeah, you're you're absolutely right. This is uh this is a question of of property rights and adultery comes down to property rights. It is not a moral it is not a fundamentally moral question. It's a question of property rights, >> right? >> Which is why, you know, if if a guy's married, he can go out and have sex with some with a sex worker. That's she's not eligible for for proper Israelite marriage. Nobody owns her. Well, and we've talked about this multiple times where heroes of the Bible, people who are who are good, >> considered good uh, you know, upstanding men of the Bible have gone out and partaken of uh of sex work with no problem, including, you know, including every well, not with no problems. Every now and then it's it's his daughter-in-law tricking him. >> Yes. But but that but the problem isn't that he that he partook of a sex worker's wares. It's it's you know that's never that's never an issue. >> Yeah. So there there's there's quite an asymmetry here going on regarding responsibilities related to sex. Yeah. and the propriety of sex because it's not people today like to think of of sex as this holy >> like not full of holes but there are holes involved but in uh this sanctified thing where um this is you know this is the power that grants life and stuff like that. Uh no not in the Hebrew Bible. >> Hebrew Bible sex was just everyday part of life. Um >> and and we're talking about like the big dogs of the Hebrew Bible. Abraham has the whole thing with Hagar. >> Uh so, you know, he's got a wife. Uh she's not >> producing. >> Yeah. >> And uh and so, you know, he he sleeps with her her maidervant, right? Is that that that's basically it. >> And slave girl. Yeah. >> Uh Jacob has uh has a whole bunch of he's got Leah and Rachel and sleeps with their maid servants uh as well. >> Yep. Uh you got Judah who uh who you know messed up with uh with the daughter-in-law because he wouldn't give his other son to her cuz he thought she was the black widow. Um and uh and uh he and she tricked him into impregnating her and he was like >> uno buen you you you got me. >> Ah you that was a good trick. >> Well played. Um yeah. So uh and in none of these cases is anyone treating sex as if it is some sacrosan kind of experience that the uh you know that God has placed these uh these boundaries around outside of questions of property rights. >> Right? >> So it adultery is a very different thing in the Hebrew Bible. It is not the the it is not what we talk about when we talk about adultery today. >> I mean when Jesus says any man who has looked looks on a woman less after her has committed adultery already with her in his heart that is a significant renegotiation of what's going on here. >> Well, we should dive into that because it does seem like the the New Testament does have a a a modified uh version of or or a modified view. Yes. >> of what adultery is and and and what it means. >> Yes. And that is primarily the product of Greco Roman society. >> Okay. >> Because we have the introduction of um Greek philosophy one and then Grecoman um family conventions, household conventions and norms and things like that where it was still men had a lot more freedom than women still. But those who were a little more philosophically oriented were asserted a bit more parody between the sexes related to sexual activity because sexual desire began to be seen as kind of this uh one of the baser urges of the corrupt flesh. and particularly through a Platonic lens where you had the divine, the world of the divine and the world of the flesh and you were really trying to transcend the world of the flesh to um commune with and hopefully one day return to the world of the divine. This is uh where the the idea of the logos, the word, Jesus as the word. This is what it's based on. This is what Paul is talking about an awful lot. But as a result of this, sex was seen as something dirty, >> right? >> And and you know, we and we've talked about this, >> you know, we they talk about it as carnal, as being as as being of Yeah. Like you say, there's it's it it becomes this thing of two realms where one thing >> one group of things is sort of the body and of the earth. And those that's that's the lesser things. Yes. And then there are the things of the spirit and of the of the divine. And that's the things to which one is supposed to aspire. >> Yeah. >> Which Yeah. I I mean I disagree, but that's >> Yeah. >> That's the Greeks for you. What are you going to do? >> Yeah. It's uh it's all Greek to them. Um now the and and something that you have in Greor Roman period Judaism is this whole spectrum of approaches to the propriety of sex. And we've we've talked about this before where there were some hardliners um who talked about sex as something that was only ever appropriate for procreation. And so it was totally inappropriate when it was not explicitly for the sake of procreation. So, you know, past menopause, sorry, man, y'all are retired. Uh you know, you're the uh wife is is menrating. You know, that's already out. Uh she's pregnant right now. Sorry. you're going to have to take matters into your own hands or not. Um, but there were those who said, "And even when you are engaged in intercourse for the sake of procreation, you're not allowed to enjoy it because to enjoy it is to >> uh mess around in the filth of fleshly desire." And so, you're supposed to be above that. You're supposed to be just doing your husbandly duty um with a with uh with a stoic face, >> right? >> Um you know, maybe a little bead of sweat drips off your nose or whatever, but um otherwise you are stonefaced. It is >> um >> it is your your joyless exertion that is that that is required of you. Uh and and then you had you had others who are a little more lenient who were like, you know, if if they're um you know, past the period of of being able to um have kids, it's no big deal. Uh but otherwise, you know, you're supposed to be um stay away from doing it when when it's not explicitly for procreation. So you had this whole spectrum of approaches to the propriety of sex. But for the most part, it was considered something that we are better leaving behind. And and this is the this is the approach of Paul. approach of the go the author of the gospel of Matthew has Jesus say um you know the there are those who are born Unix there are those who are made Unix by men and there are those who make themselves Unix for the sake of the kingdom of heaven and um this is a hard saying uh and >> yeah it is >> I agree that is a that is a hard yeah that's rough >> and he he says let anyone who can accept it accept it basically saying, you know, the the real ones uh are going to be celibate and perhaps even um you know, and this led to self-castration among a lot of early Christians. And a lot of people don't know that one of the one of the first rules they laid down. They did three things at the council of Nika 325 CE Constantine. They were there to resolve the Aryan controversy. They were there to come up with a new way to determine the date of Easter every year that decoupled it from Judaism and allowed people to calculate it on their own. Third thing they did was come up with a list of canon law. Law number one, nobody who has castrated himself is eligible for the clergy. >> Oh >> yeah. Yeah. It was like, sorry, you you thought you were you were a real one and >> you thought you were doing the right thing. >> You're out now. Yeah. >> Sorry. Um so uh the sexual ethic was just it was motivated by Greek philosophy and and Greor Roman societal convention. So when we look at how Paul and Jesus and other folks are talking about sex in the New Testament, it's very different from the Hebrew Bible. >> Yeah. >> And it's influenced by Greek philosophy. And uh >> that's it's so important. You know, you you love you talk a lot about uh univocality is your word about how people anyone who assumes >> that the entirety of the Bible from uh from Genese to Revel is uh is going to be in uh in harmony with each other. uh >> you're you're just going to be you're you're just missing the depth and uh and and the the the breadth of this book this or rather this huge series of books. It's not a book. It is many books >> over centuries and yeah of course there are going to be philosophical and uh legal and moral innovations over that much time. >> Absolutely. And and I think it does so much violence to the text to force it into these strictures and say, "No, not allowed to say that. It's not allowed to do that. It has to say this, >> right?" >> Um it's so the book is so much more fascinating and so much weirder >> when you allow it to operate on its own terms and so it's so much cooler. >> I think do its thing. I think you and I really embra and I think most of our listeners really embrace the weirdness that that you're discussing. Uh >> but I do think that that might be why it's so uncomfortable for a lot of people because they want this book to be >> holy and pure. like they want a they want to be able to look to it and have it just be the exalted perfect word of God >> so that they don't have to think about it. Yeah. >> So that it's so that it's not challenging. So that it's just easy and nice and it it just sits there as as the transcendent and unassalable authority for your identity politics, right? It's you they don't want they want it to change everybody else. You don't want it to change you. Uh you just want to leverage it as the change everybody um >> bludgeon uh to go make everybody else fall in line with with your thinking whatever that thinking happens to be. >> Yeah. And then you go and you compare the story of David and you know Bath Sheba and all of his wives and all of his concubines and whatever with the with the Matthew quote of Jesus about Yeah. If you look at a woman lustfully, you've already committed adultery. That those are two very different perspectives. >> Yeah. Yeah. And and that's also Matthew saying you have to obey the law of Moses. >> Only I'm ratcheting it up. I'm ratcheting up some of the laws, >> right? Yeah. You have to obey the law of Moses, but we're redefining all of it. We're redefining it. So >> your your righteousness must must exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees. Uh so yeah it is and and when you look at the stories about about King David, you know what does Nathan compare David's adultery to? He compares it to stealing some some farmer's lamb, >> right? >> And eating it. And it's like well it's a person uh that you have >> right >> effectively raped. >> It's a human being. >> Yes. And also you had the farmer killed in that particular metaphor. >> Yeah. And um and and what is it about again? His property >> property rights. Yeah. >> It wasn't because uh there was something you know morally wrong about this particular fallus in this particular uh area. It wasn't it wasn't that this and you know later um the more um holiness code laws that's where you have this idea that that these actions generate this metaphysical contamination that gets out on the land and pollutes the land and the land can only handle so much before it's going to vomit you out. uh you you do get this idea that there is this metaphysical um aspect to these sins but for the folks who wrote Samuel knows it's just that she belonged to somebody else he violated somebody else's property rights right >> and um as king that's a no nobody cares about that shea in that text >> right >> so >> it's it's problematic all get out >> uh well not maybe not for them uh maybe not for for David but It's problematic for us. >> Yes. And should be problematic for all y'all out there. What um and this brings up, this is only tangentially related to our topic, but it is something that has me fuming. >> Uh somebody on uh on Twitter or X or or whatever the hell people want to call it these days. Uh recently like like X my algorithm on X is so effed right now. If I can say that >> I thought everybody's was that's why I left. >> All I get is these these Christian nationalists and freaking Elon and uh it just irritates me to no end. However, uh somebody posted something said the you in response to something about you know uh divine command ethics. They said the universe goes unchanged if someone rapes. Without God, morals have no meaning. And I would and I responded to this uh God of the Bible doesn't really seem to care about rape. It's not even punished unless it's a free Israelite girl. Then it's only a property crime against her husband, in which case it's the death penalty, or her father, in which case she pays an elevated bride price. Foreign and enslaved girls could be violated at will. somebody who's who's evidently been uh following me on Twitter for some time took issue with with my statement and and just wanted to complain about it and and what they retreated to >> was 1 Corinthians 7 1-5. I don't know if you have this passage memorized, but I don't. This is something that a lot of people have appealed to >> where it says the uh the husband's body is not his own, the wife's body is not her own. they should um render unto each other due benevolence, which which is basically a way to say uh you owe your spouse conjugal their conjugal rights. >> And so he so this person commented, "People have no right >> to arbitrarily refuse intimacy in marriage." >> 1 Corinthians 7 1-5 closed parenthesis. And I've seen this verse come up a lot recently. This is apologetics for marital rape, right? >> This is insisting that there's no such thing as marital rape because a a wife's body is not her own in marriage and that her husband has a right to her body. And that is so abominable. >> Yeah, it's Yeah, it is. It is on its face obviously wrong. Yeah, it's it's disgusting, but it is it is something that an awful lot of Christians on social media seem to think is perfectly fine. >> Yeah. >> And and if if you're in a worldview where if you're participating in a society or a worldview where that is seen as okay, you need to sit a few plays out. You need to come to grips with the fact that that is rape apologetics. >> Yeah. >> There is no circumstance in which a woman's right to her bodily autonomy is forfeited to a man ever. And it does not matter if you are Paul who prided himself in being celibate anyway. He wasn't even on the field for any of this. So, I don't care what he has to say. Um, but yeah. Um, I I loathe when people bring up 1 Corinthians 7 1-5. Well, it's just Yeah. I mean, >> and I I I have seen both women and men online >> quoting that idea and and and and saying, you know, that that and it's all what's funny is that the way you said it, I I don't know that I knew the scripture that was that they were referencing when they did it, but the way you said it made it sound like >> the man the woman also has the right to just demand sex from the man whenever. That's how men make it sound. Okay. It's like it's reciprocal. It's reciprocal. >> Right. Right. >> It's reciprocal. She can demand it, too. Yeah. >> Now, I I I will say there are not a ton of women out there who are like, I'm not getting it enough, sweetie. Um, but that's not true. There are women out there like that. >> I was going to say I know a lot of uh of old over 40 women and Yeah, there are plenty of there are plenty of them who would like more sex. >> Yeah. And not a one of them has ever considered demanding it as their right from their from their partner >> or or maybe not even demanding it, just taking it, >> right? >> Like they they don't they don't even act like that is is something that they're thinking about. Um NRSVU says this, um but because of cases of sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. The husband should give to his wife what is due her and likewise the wife to her husband. For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise, the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Do not deprive one another except perhaps by agreement for a set time to devote yourselves to prayer and then come together again so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. And really all what Paul is saying is that if you're married, >> you need to make sure you have the relief valve of occasional prophylactic uh passionless sex, right? >> Otherwise, it's going to get pent up and then, you know, something bad going to happen. Uh so, but this gets far too often leveraged by men to mean you're not allowed to deny me sex. Um, >> and I think I I think a lot of a lot of those apologists would attack us and say, "Who are we to say that the Bible's morality is wrong or that the Bible's definition uh, you know, the the Bible's definition of what's okay isn't isn't correct." And yet they >> would be the first ones to say, "No, you know, you can't have three wives and four concubines." and however many sex slaves you want, >> right? >> Um, yeah, we've we've rejected we've come to the consensus that we reject so much of the Bible's not just sexual ethic, but just ethic in general, >> right? >> Um, that the notion that that it bears any authority in and of itself that is absolute is is absolutely laughable. It's all negotiable and and people can get as upset about that as they want. That does not change the fact >> be negotiated. You have to you and so and so like taking the position that well one part of the Bible says that I get to marital maritalally rape my wife. Uh you're yeah as as you say you're you're doing apologetics for rape now. Uh maybe maybe back off of that one. That's probably >> that's a loser right there. >> Yeah. That's that's an autoblock >> uh uh response for me. So, um yeah, sorry that was a bit of a tangent that took more. >> No, no, it was important and uh and I'm glad that we went there. Um well, all right. There you go. That's the law. Uh please feel free to ignore it uh or to or to redefine it as pleases your morality. Uh let's move on to our chapter and verse. In this week's chapter and verse, we're going to Hosea. Hosea is a is a prophet and this is his book. >> It is. >> Um it's a it's an interesting one, >> I I as I was reading it, and it's not one of, you know, usually when you and I do a a whole book, >> Yeah. >> it's a it's usually a one chapter. >> It's a one chapter, maybe two, three chapters. This one has 14 chapters. So, >> yes, >> uh, it's it's a little and what >> you're getting the 30,000 ft view, >> right? >> We're we're in comfort plus, but we're getting the 30,000 foot view. >> And what what drives me bonkers about it and what was so hard for me was as I was reading it is that it keeps saying the same damn thing over and over and over and over. >> Uh, but it uses a lot of metaphor. It uses a lot of symbolism and it gets for my money quite confusing uh in the process. So >> I don't know. So dive in what stage first. >> That's what that's what I was going to say. >> We're we're in the 8th century and this may mean absolutely nothing to many of you. Maybe you have no framework for thinking about this. But if we have if we have pre-exilic Israel and post-exilic Israel and when and the exile is in the middle, the exile is 6th century. >> Okay? >> Pre-exilic is everything prior to that. 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th brings you traditionally to Saul and David and Solomon. >> Okay? >> Um we're not going to worry about everything um after the exile. This is the 8th century. The northern kingdom of Israel still exists. The southern kingdom of Judah is there. And both of them are thriving. You have a king in the northern kingdom, Jeroboam II, who reigns for about 40 years. You have a king in the southern kingdom of Judah named Isaiah who reigns for about 40 years. And as a result of the unusually long reigns of these two kings, there is a lot of prosperity. There is trade going on. There is building going on. There is population growth going on. There is concentration of wealth and this is what actually catalyzes a lot of the prophetic literature that comes from the 8th century. Micah, Amos, Isaiah, Hosea, these are 8th century prophets and we've talked about it before. One of their main problems is with all the wealth and the prosperity and the suffering of the poor and the needy and the afflicted and the foreigner. >> And Hosea is is no exception. Uh Hosea 66 is the famous uh I will have mercy and not sacrifice that Jesus in the Gospel of Matthew quotes twice tells the his challengers go and learn what that means. So um so Hosea is uh one of a bunch of prophets who pop up in the 8th century right when people are getting really wealthy to to chew him out for uh social injustices that are going on. So Hosea is from the northern kingdom and the northern kingdom is going to be destroyed in 7:22 B.CE. The Assyrians come in and they take away the 10 tribes of Israel and they are assimilated into Assyria and later Babylon and they disappear and they they are functionally gone. >> Right >> now there we believe that remnants of these 10 10 tribes were left behind or or ran down to the southern kingdom. And so um there are fragments of those populations that uh became part of the southern kingdom of Judah. But the 10 the lost 10 tribes of Israel is a reference to what happens in 7:22 BCE. >> Right? >> Hosea is writing between around 750 B.CE and around 720 B.CE. So he's talking about this. Now scholars >> this is a thing that's happening in real time for Hosea >> for the Yes. for the prophet Hosea. Now, now scholars are in pretty widespread agreement that a good chunk of Hosea does go back to somebody and uh a poetic prophet who was writing in the 8th century BCE. >> So, um there there's disagreement about exactly how much of it is from the the middle of the 8th century and how much of it is, you know, the end of the 8th century or into the sec 7th century or maybe post exilic in origin. You know, some people think there are some Deuteronomistic revisions going on here and there. Some people think that the author of Hosea and and the particular ideological school that produced Hosea might be responsible for the later production of Deuteronomy and the Deuteronomistic histories because of the close relationships between the two. So we we we don't have a real clear idea about what is genuine and what is not, but most scholars think that probably the majority of it is genuine. >> Okay. So >> that's a that's a good thing to note as as so much of this book ends up not being authentic to what it claims to be. >> Yeah. So verse one starts off the word of the Lord that came to Hosea son of Beer in the days of King Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah of Judah. And in the days of King Jeroboam, son of Joash of Israel. So we got four kings. His his tenure overlaps with the reigns of four different kings. Starting >> you just said that we had kings with long reigns, but like I guess so he's he's presiding prophet over uh over all of these uh the reigns of all these kings. >> Yeah. So, uh, Uzziah is reigning from around 780, 775 to around 740, 735, something like that. And so, um, Hosea is like the last 15-ish years of Uzziah's reign. Jotham is 15 years, Ahaz is 20 years, and then Hezekiah uh is is batting uh clean up there. So he's uh Hosea is mainly toward the beginning of of Hezekiah. But >> right >> uh and then in the days of King Jeroboam, son of Joash, he just mentions Jeroboam. Uh which is odd because he reigns from um 790ish to 750ish. H >> so uh he's ignoring the northern kingdom for for the the rest of the existence of the northern kingdom down to 7:22 when when it gets destroyed. >> And just so that I'm clear, the northern kingdom uh is Israel and the southern kingdom is Judah. Is that correct? >> That is correct. Yes. Now, the northern kingdom uh the capital uh is Samaria. So that's why I don't know if you recall when you read through Hosea, there was a lot of mention of Samaria, >> right? Um, but the Hosea also refers to the northern kingdom as Ephraim. >> Yeah, I get I like there are so many like Yes. Ephraim confused the crap out of me. Had to look that one up. >> Yeah. >> Uh and and yes, I didn't know that Samaria was a cap a capital city rather than another kingdom. I wasn't I was confused about that. >> Yes. So, it's um it's spoken of as a as a region, >> but Yeah. But there um and you know that's why when you get down to the New Testament, they're like, "Don't go through Samaria. Don't go through there." But stay away from there. Um stay away from Samaria. But uh and then we get to verse two. I I remember several years ago I sat down. I was like, I'm going to I'm going to translate the book of Hosea. And I stopped at verse two. Um >> You didn't make it very far. >> No, but uh I had a lot of other things getting in the way. But um here's what the NRSVU says. When the Lord first spoke through Hosea, the Lord said to Hosea, "Go take for yourself a wife of prostitution." Yeah. And have children of prostitution, for the land commits great prostitution by forsaking the Lord. So, uh, and and I'm just going to pull up the Hebrew real quick of Hosea 1 verse two. Uh and it he says uh instead of the words of Hosea take for yourself. So a wife of and then it's the plural prostitutions, sex workings. Uh it's probably an abstract plural meaning it's referring to >> the abstraction. uh >> the idea of prostitution or whatever. >> So, so it's unclear if the idea is marry a woman who's a sex worker >> or marry a woman who is characterized by promiscuity or marry a woman who was born of sex work. >> Like there there are variety of different ways to interpret this uh and it's not exactly clear what is going on. Well, and also none of the interpretations, none of the potential interpretations make it any better. It's it's still wildly confusing why the Lord is saying this to Hosea. Like, why do you want Hosea? Basically, it turns out that the Lord is just saying, "Hey, take uh take this kind of wife because it'll be useful for my metaphor." >> Yeah. Yeah. >> You'll love this. The payoff is great. Yeah. >> But um but but there's also an interesting thing. Um the uh it says take for yourself a woman of prostitution and children of prostitution. So it's not clear that it's saying have children with this woman, but adopt >> the children that have been born to this woman as a an outcome of her sex work. >> Um like it's it's unclear what's going on here. Not the kind of thing that you would expect from a prophet in our day and age or unless >> maybe for some Christian nationalist this is exactly the kind of thing you would expect Hug Seth or something coming in strong with something weird. I would say here one of the things that's really uh interesting for me, I'm glad that you mentioned trying to translate this because one of the ways that I sometimes explore a biblical text for this show is that I listen to a recording of someone who has done a recording of uh of the Bible, but you know, nobody's done that for the NRSVU. So, they're usually reading out of the King James version. Yeah. So, I'm listening to the King James version while I'm following along with the NRSVUEE just to sort of, you know, that way I can see the differences and whatever. And I'll tell you what, Hosea frequently it's just like that those translation differences are off the rails. >> Yeah, >> it is so hard to follow. It is like I have to pause and go, wait, what did he just say? What does this say? So yeah, that like the King James version of verse two says, "In the beginning of the word of the Lord by Hosea or the beginning of the word of the Lord by Hosea, and the Lord said to Hosea, go take unto thee a wife of whoredoms, and children of whoredoms, for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the Lord." >> Yeah. I and and it's such an odd thing to do because it it seems like the I'm I'm imagining the Hosea being like, "Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Okay. Yeah. Couldn't I just write down that I did this?" >> Right. >> Since it seems like the impact is in other people finding out about it, >> right? >> And so I could just write down that I did this. God's like, "No, you have to go do it. You have to actually do it. >> I don't think you're understanding me. It doesn't seem meaningful until I tell other people about it and I could just tell them about like >> like you really want me to do this and then just write down that I did it and then publish that. >> You and I need to write a biblical sitcom. I don't know why we why we have that's not on our plate yet. Anyway, uh we're going to crowdfund that eventually. >> Yeah. So, he went and he took Goomemer, daughter of Delime, and she conceived and bore him a son. So, so this makes it sound like no, the the text is saying have children of sex workings, promiscuity, prostitutions, whoredom, whatever. Um, and and whether this means because that was her profession or maybe it means this is going to characterize them, maybe they're going to grow up to uh to engage the son is going to engage in in sex work. I don't know. Um, but >> I mean it seems reasonable to just say that uh, you know, these because their mother was a sex worker, they are the children of sex workers and that there's a stigma that just sort of follows them because of that or something. baby. You would think that since he's the one he's the one who who is the father, >> right, >> that that would doesn't his prophethhood kind of uh cover a multitude of sex work? Um but I don't know. And the Lord said to him, "Name him Jezrael." >> And that's the valley in the northern kingdom of Israel that uh was very prominent. That's where they got a lot of their wealth from. >> Oh, okay. For a little while I will that's that's like one of the um agriculturally that's one of the richest areas in all of Israel is the Jezrael Valley. >> Okay. >> Uh for a little while I will punish the house of Jahu for the blood of Jezrael and I will put an end to the kingdom of the house of Israel. On that day I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezrael. And and we have talked about Joo um uh getting slain in uh by um in yeah in the northern kingdom. Anyway, >> she conceived again and bore a daughter. >> Then the Lord said to him, "Name her loama, >> which which means uh there is no mercy or um there is no compassion or something like that. So this is this is where the cobraai get their um get their motto from mercy's for the weak. Uh for I will no longer have pity on the house of Israel or forgive them. Uh but I will have pity on the house of Judah and I will save them by the Lord their God. I will not save them by bow or by sword or by war or by horses or by horsemen. When she had weaned loa she conceived and bore a son. And then the Lord said, "Name him lo ami," which means not my people, for you are not my people and I am not your God. So, um, rough names for these kids to grow up with, >> right? Yeah. They're going to >> not only not only rough names, but like that's some rough stuff that God is pronouncing. >> Yeah. >> Uh, you you said that Hosea Wait, Hosea is an Israelite or a Judahite? >> Uh, probably from the northern kingdom of Israel. Probably. >> Okay. So he's So God is saying to a guy from Israel, >> "Yeah, >> screw Israel. Israel sucks. I'm not going to save Israel. I'm going to save Judah, >> but Israel's going down." >> Yeah, >> that's rough. >> Yeah, it's it's not great. Um and uh and yeah, the to to be like, "Name your kid uh name your kid, your nation is going to be destroyed." >> Yeah. Name your kid Israel sucks. and uh and just have them walk around with that and let people ask questions. Um and and it goes on like that. There uh there's chapter 2, I think, is it's overwhelmingly poetry. Uh the chapter one is is some narrative, but chapter 2 is when we get into the poetry, and that's where things get >> uh really interesting. But um I think uh where is it? I think it's verse 16. Yeah, 16. We have the um the poetry and then we get into more names. The poetry is all about Bal, >> right? >> Uh this is one of the main things. The the the point of this is Israel is God's wife. Israel is um worshiping other gods and that is metaphorized as adultery. Right? >> So this is what is going on with Hosea and Goomemer that you know wife of prostitutions or or sex workings. And that's what's going on between God and Israel. And uh and and Ball is kind of the main um antagonist in all of this poetry. >> Yeah. >> And then verse 16 says, "On that day, says the Lord, you will call me." And then um NRSVU says, "My husband is is how it reads in Hebrew. And no longer will you call me Bali, which means my ball." Now, this is a play on words because the Hebrew word ball can mean husband. >> It means it can mean lord, master, >> husband. >> Don't read into any of that. Uh or or read into it. Yes, they the the husband was the lord or master, but um Bali was probably a title that could be used to refer to Adoni, the god of Israel, because it would mean my master, >> right? And so when we look in in Samuel and Kings and things like that, uh, one of Saul's sons is named Eshbal, which would mean man of Bal or man of the Lord or master. It could be a title for >> for the God of Israel. >> It all gets very confusing. Can I just say uh name your gods a name rather than a title because the otherwise it just becomes a a weird thing. >> Yeah. And so so this is this play on words is saying don't call me that anymore cuz that reminds me of uh of you know uh Soncho over there and says instead call me my husband and then verse 17 for I will will remove the name of the balls from her mouth >> and they shall >> I you know let me tell you something I read that and uh I was hoping we would pass over it so that I didn't have to giggle at it but I mean Removing balls from your mouth is uh >> Yes. >> The names. The names of the balls. >> The names of the balls. >> Yeah. Thunder and lightning. Um >> Donner and Blitzen. All right. >> If the left one don't get you, then the right one will. Um. Oh my gosh. We have We have descended, my friends. >> 16 tons. Oh. Um, and uh and they shall be mentioned by name no more. So, so we're still dealing with that. Um, I >> I am confused about the plurality of the names of the Balls. >> Yes. This is something that's interesting that you find in uh you find it in Judges, you find it in Hosea, you find it in a couple of places where you have the balls and the asheras where and and there are a couple different ways this could be interpreted. One way is to understand each individual ball or asher to mean the local manifestation. kind of like you have the Virgin of Guadalupe and you have the Virgin of of this other place over here and you have the Virgin of this other place over here, right? >> And and that's supposed to reflect the fact that there was a manifestation of the virgin in a specific way to respond to a specific need and uh you have that in um in the ancient West Asian um kind of ritual landscape. Um, and there's a there's a book called The Splintered Divine, which which tries to talk about how you have these different manifestations of deities in a bunch of different places. So, that could be an explanation. Another explanation is that the word ball had become lexicalized as a kind of generic reference to a foreign deity. >> Right? So, uh, the balls just means all those those foreign deities, >> the lords, the masters, the the gods of all of the lands, >> and the and asheras would mean the female deities of of all these lands. And and they're both being associated with fertility um, deities and rituals and things like that because that's one of the ways that you can make them sound as gross as possible. >> They're the they're the naughty dirty. >> Yes. Because if if you need something to be dirty, then it's about sex. And you know, that's that's why Mary Magdalene became a sex worker is because she was uh inaccurately conflated with a a woman, a a sinful woman in another chapter in Luke. And then Pope Gregory the Great was like, "Well, she's hugely sinful. What does that mean?" Well, that means she was a sex worker, obviously. So, um, so then Mary Magdalene became a sex worker. But um so so yeah, there's a lot of fertility uh stuff being attributed to the balls and the asheras, which probably wasn't accurate, but um but we we basically get two different kinds of of promises here. Um God is is using this metaphor to say, I'm going to punish >> Yeah. um my my wife uh >> my wife >> and and there are all these accusations about how the wife has been unfaithful and all this but but >> and again the wife is Israel in this metaphor. >> Yes. Yes. In another part of the story, the son is Israel uh in the metaphor. So it gets complicated. >> It keeps throwing itself around. It it is hard to follow. I I got to say like if you're if you're reading it just >> so like so much of the Bible as you read it, you can either do the glaze over and just get through it sort of reading. >> Yeah. >> And uh and just hope you get something out of it that that may that's meaningful to you or you can like really buckle down and try to understand it and that is a chore. >> Yeah. Good luck. Um Godspeed. But um there's and and mainly when you when you look through all the poetry and all the metaphors, Hosea is is basically representing God as as saying, "Look, you hurt me. You cut me deep. Um and I kind of want to end things, but I love you too much. So, I'm going to ultimately restore our relationship." Uh and there there are folks who divide um divide Hosea into three segments, chapters 1 through 3, 4- 11, and then 12-4. And the the second and third segments, they kind of focus on a bunch of accusations and then end with a a promise of restoration. And uh and then chapter 14 ends with the call to repentance and uh and a promise of restoration. So, a promise of restoration, but not before >> I'm going to really mess you up. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Like there's this there's this whole like, yes, you you cheated on me. You're awful. You went and got your your barley and your wine from another dude and uh and I'm pissed off about it and I'm going to wreck you. you beat some other dude's wheat um in his threshing floor >> and then uh and then maybe I'll I'll let you back in. >> Yeah. >> It doesn't sound I'm just going to say it. It doesn't sound like a healthy marriage. >> No, no, it's it's an abusive um marriage where um where God has uh all the control and is a jealous, spiteful um master or lord >> or husband. Yeah. >> So, uh but and you know it gets worse and you go to Jeremiah >> or the book of Revelation, >> right? >> Where then you've got a you've got a bunch of uh like uh shaming and sexual abuse and stuff like that that is going on as a result of the infidelity of the metaphorical wife. Yeah. >> Um, yeah. So, it uh it can get worse. But yeah, the that's the main thrust of uh the metaphor in Hosea that that Israel has been an unfaithful wife. God is torn, but ultimately God's love for Israel is going to win out in the end. And so even though there's going to be the destruction of the northern kingdom of Israel, even though there's going to be the Babylonian exile, ultimately there will be restoration. And this and this brings up an issue that um people have been wrestling with since the Babylonian exile is when is the restoration actually happening? Um when you know people have been reading Hosea ever since and and Christians who who read Hosea today are still looking forward to this restoration and and they're appropriating it for themselves. You know, the followers of Jesus are now Israel. Um that there's that supersessionism. But um and and when you look through all the prophecies about restoration and even later texts that are like we almost got there but not quite. But it's coming. It's right around the corner. You know, Daniel thinks it's going to happen in the mid 160s BC. >> Any minute now. >> Yeah. And it doesn't happen. And the book of Revelation thinks, "Oh, any minute now it's going to happen." And and it doesn't happen. 2,000 years down the road. Any minute now it's going to happen. Oh, >> we got China and we got Russia and we got Turkey and they're going to surround Israel and that's going to be the second coming. Oh, it's going to happen on September 23rd. Oh, it's going to happen. No, it was September 25th. No, actually it's going to be in October. Um, yeah, the um the restoration never seems to happen the way it is uh it is prophesied. So, this is something that that people are are continuously looking forward to. And and this is why uh I I think we've talked about this before. Maybe we haven't focused on it, but uh the Christian Old Testament ends with Malachi because it's the great and the terrible day of the Lord comes. He will turn the hearts of the parents to the children and the hearts of the children to the parents so that I will not come and strike the land with a curse. And that I will send you the prophet Elijah. And this is a a convenient segue into the Gospel of Matthew introducing Jesus as the fulfillment of of all this stuff. >> But um if you go into a uh the Jewish Bible, it ends at the end of 2 Chronicles uh 36. Thus says King Cyrus of Persia, "The Lord, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth, and he has charged me to build him a house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Let any of those among you who are of his people, may the Lord their God be with them, go up." So this is this is the a realization of restoration. Not the final one, but it is uh the Jewish arrangement of Hebrew Bible text ends with this I think intentionally in order to close the book on a partial fulfillment and an expectation of uh return and restoration in the future, which is ultimately what what Hosea is is looking forward to. Um, and unfortunately Goomemer and Lor Rukama and Lo Ami and Jezrael never got to see it. Uh, but hopefully they were not teased too maliciously. >> I mean, I think that the I I like the idea of uh restoration being the the takeaway. Uh, even if it never actually happens, it's just a nicer takeaway. The reason that you and I I'm just going to spill this really quickly and then we'll we'll close it up. But the reason that you and I are actually doing a Hosea >> uh episode >> is because we had a patron write into us >> who had said that >> uh he had gone to he or she had gone to a uh a um some sort of of evangelical uh meeting that he had been invited to in college. He or she had been invited to in college. And uh they went to the church and uh basically got a a hu got heranged uh when they got there by this reading of Hosea that compared everyone in the room to So I feel like there's there's one there are different potential takeaways here. And it does make sense that someone's take away from Hosea would be about prostitution because uh Hosea was obsessed with sex workers. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Uh you you couldn't shake a stick at Hosea without him calling somebody a >> He's he's the little old lady uh around the the uh the board table in Tommy Boy who goes and that's when the come in. and David Spade goes kind of like her idea. Um the ve the very last verse of of Hosea 14:9 very famous verse uh a lot of scholars think this is actually written by the people who collected and published Hosea's writings rather than by Hosea himself. And it says th those who are wise understand these things. Those who are discerning know them. For the ways of the Lord are right and the upright walk in them but transgressors stumble in them. So, uh it does it does end with a uh um you know, choose the right. >> Yeah. >> Kind of >> walk upright. Don't don't stumble. >> Yeah. Um but yeah, what you can focus uh it is easy to get lost in the sauce of fornications and uh and sex workings and zenunim. But uh I I think the point there is is really uh Hosea is trying to say you are such disgusting people, but God loves you so much that God is going to bring you back into the fold eventually once you get your crap together. Just get it together. >> Yeah. >> Put it in a backpack. >> Turns out that it is it is not within human nature to ever actually get it together. So yeah, >> alas, uh we'll we'll be waiting on that restoration for a long a good long while. >> Yeah, he he needed to adopt the eternal perspective. Um >> the getting together will only be gotten together in the the great beyond >> in the great getting together. >> Yes. Once we have shuffled off this mortal coil, then we will get the the all the coils together. >> Um >> all right, friends. Well, uh, there you go. There's your Hosea for the day. Uh, go out there and commit some adultery if you want to. Uh, it's, uh, yeah. Uh, >> we're not we're not fans of it, but but far be it from us to prohibit anybody there. >> Yeah. We're not moralizing here. Uh, that's not our job. >> We don't. >> All right. Thank you so much for joining us. If you would like to become a part of how we actually make this thing happen, you can go and become one of our patrons over on patreon.com/data overdogma. Uh it's a where you can sign up for uh to to at whatever level makes you comfortable. But you know, if you give us just a little bit of your money, you can get an early and adree version of every episode. You can get access to the uh the afterparty. That's bonus weekly content. Um, thanks so much to Roger Goutudy for editing the show. We'll talk to you again next week. Bye, everybody. [Music], The Adult(ery) Episode, Data Over Dogma, 01k819eeawxzbae2xkabtthnfw.