The Fall of the Charismatic Movement  episode we're talking about the fall of the charismatic movement. Now, as you know, we are continuationists on this program, meaning that we believe that the gifts of the spirit have continued. So, in a very broad sense, we are part of the charismatic movement. But when we talk about the fall of the charismatic movement, we're talking about general terms. I was speaking generically and we're talking about the largest institutions of the charismatic movement that have fallen under disrepute. As you know, in November of 2022, Carl Lent, lead pastor of Hillsong Church in New York City, was found in an affair with a model. Soon after, in 2021, Brian Houston seemed to be complicit in the cover up of predatorial behavior of his own father. Though an Australian court did in fact acquit him of criminal charges that accused him of failing to report this child abuse to the police and the proper authorities, he still remains guilty in the public eye for knowing his father's sin and failing to expose it as the scriptures demand. between Brian and Carl. Hillsong's church has been their name has been dragged through the mud, leaving a huge stain on the charismatic movement. In October of 2023, a group of former IHOP KC leaders publicly stated that they had credible allegations of sexual misconduct and abuse against Mike Bickle, spanning several decades. And it is clear that anyone who has eyes to see that Mike Bickle has been guilty of clergy sexual abuse, guilty of fabricating parts of IHOP Casey's prophetic history and covering up his many sins. In conjunction with this, we have the history of the homosexual predatorial behavior of IHOP KC prophet Paul Kaine and the sexual predatorial behavior of Bob Jones. And between these three individuals, the reputation of IHOP KC has been shattered, leaving an even larger stain on the charismatic movement. And most recently in January of 2026, Bethl Church in Reading, California, has publicly confessed that they have neglected to follow biblical protocol in exposing the false prophet Shawn BS whom they had publicly platformed. It has been verified through multiple sources and the sources being Bill Johnson, Chris Valatin, and Danny Suck themselves that all three of these men knew that Shawn was data mining information on Facebook and then publicly portraying that information as a prophetic word from God. Additionally, it has been made known that all three of these men were also aware of Shawn that he had cultivated within his own ministry, a practice of sexually harassing individuals within his ministry, leaving once again a massive stain on the reputation of the charismatic movement. Our largest institutions within the charismatic movement, Hillong, IHOP, and Bethl have all lost massive cred credibility. And in addition to these institutions falling under scrutiny, there have been public exposures of men like Dr. Michael Brown and his cover up of his own clergy sexual abuse. Todd White in his exposure of falsifying testimony, heavy-handed leadership, his love of money, and this the prolific trail of lies that's following his ministry. Chris Reed has also been guilty of data mining and and portraying these as prophetic words. He has also participated in sexual misconduct and they have recent allegations that have begun to emerge of substance abuse. In this episode, we will discuss the fall of the charismatic movement and the charismatic industrial complex. How did this happen and what will be necessary to rebuild an authentic word inspirit church who will contend for growing in the knowledge of God's word and the power of his spirit. You guys stay tuned. It's going to be an interesting. Welcome everybody back to the wonderful world of Remnant Radio. Uh my name is Joshua Lewis. Didn't say it there in the intro. And I've got some buddies with me today talking about the fall of the charismatic movement. I've got Michael Roundtree there in the center and Michael Miller over on the far right. Uh gentlemen, how are you doing this week? I'll start with Roundree as always. >> Uh yeah, doing good. Gearing up a little bit for Rimcon, uh the conference we have in San Diego at the end of this week. So uh we're doing the conference and then on Thursday we're doing kind of like a long session, all day session of training our prayer teams, uh in the basics, the gifts of the spirit. So, uh, it's going to be a really good time. Look forward to seeing you guys. So, >> got those out there. So, uh, >> if if you haven't registered already, go jump online theradio.com. You can get online registration. Get access to all the videos for I think over a year. Uh, and then you get like handouts, uh, for all of our talks, uh, the disciplehip curriculum that we're using. So, that's fun stuff. >> Y >> Yeah. Miller, how are you doing in >> Denver? Uh, dude, I'm tired. I I think I got maybe three hours of sleep last night. So, little Benson was Dude, he was up at two o'clock and then I couldn't fall back asleep. So, it was it was a rough night, but um it's getting better. It's getting a little bit a little bit better each week. So, we're uh yeah, I I think I told you guys the tongue tie, lip tie thing, the procedure, all that. So, we've been kind of like on the other end of all that, but it's been kind of crazy. So, this will be the the first time I've left town for any kind of conference since the since before he was born, which is like it's a long stay home for me, which has actually been really really nice, but it's gone by like so fast. So, anyway, I'm tired. Uh, but I'm doing okay. [laughter] I got a baby. It's great. Well, uh, on that note, um, today we're talking about when I say the fall of the charismatic movement, as we said in the intro, uh, we're not talking about the whole movement as a whole. In some sense we would consider ourselves part of that movement if you uh define it as just people who believe in the spiritual gifts and yet our largest institutions uh have seemed to fall into disrepute. So what has caused that? There seems to be some I I would say uh some patterns amongst all of these individuals all of these institutions uh that seem to be at least share some similarities. And I think if we can learn from this history, if we can learn from what's happened in the past, it can prevent us from uh repeating the these failures in the future. Uh we believe here on the show, we want to see a charismatic movement that's deeply passionate about the word of God, that is empowered by uh the power of the spirit, really dependent on the Holy Spirit's moving um empowered by supernatural uh power through spiritual gifts. But but as we want to set up that kind of uh framework, as we're trying to maybe rebuild some of the charismatic movement, I think it would be important for us to avoid some of these things that we're beginning to see. Um give you a quick layout of show notes today. Uh as far as things that we're going uh off of, we're going to be covering a pattern of uh kind of celebrity culture. Uh what would be, I would say, akin to idolatry. We'll be talking a little bit about that. We're going to talk about some governance gaps. How the governance of these movements, many of them to seem to be uh similar, not all of them universally, but a lot of these movements seem to have similar ecclesiologies. And there might be something there uh that we can kind of protect the movement from. Uh we can talk about ministry culture uh of anointing versus qualification and confusing anointing versus qualification. We're talking about information control and image management. Uh we're going to talk about uh platform uh incentives as well. or talk about the bit of the Christian industrial complex. So, uh that's kind of a layout of the show as it goes. But before we get into all the formal stuff, uh Michael Roundtree, any kind of airbags you want to put on the discussion today? Um I know we're not arbiters of all things charismatic. We're not the leaders of the charismatic movement. Uh we're just Christians who have a platform and we're hoping to resource people to think critically about these issues. Um but is there anything you want to add before we dive into the subject matter? Uh yeah, I mean really it's that we don't see ourselves as above this or anybody and we're just uh we're local church pastors who happen to have a podcast channel. So uh we're not the the popes of the charismatic movement or of evangelicalism. We're dudes who are pastoring churches. That's really it. Um and we'll make some observations from the scripture and from our experience of this culture. We've been in it for quite a while and uh and so we'll we'll walk through some parallels with Corinth and so on. Um but we're we're just going to do this as teachers of the scriptures is really it. So that that would be mine. Uh Miller, do you have any? >> No, I I really appreciate that. I think some people get upset with us when we do some sort of critique on a sermon like who made you guys the arbiters of truth and who get made you guys the judge? Like we don't pretend to be. We're just trying to uh I mean really this this a lot of these conversations are conversations the three of us are regularly having because we're friends and so we just thought these conversations might help others to process some of the things that we've been processing and you know I just did a um a little short form video a little while ago about how I think we're hitting a tip tipping point in the charismatic movement um and a good one like there's a snowball of uh exposures that it's happening and I know people are sick of it. They're fatigued by it. They're tired of hearing of a new scandal, but honestly, it needs to keep happening until it's gone and uh until the the root issues can be sort of identified and u and reform can happen. And so, I think Mike Winger has effectively called it coverup culture that we are going to be sort of talking about and what leads to that. Um, and I think he's right to call it that. That that really is uh I think what's happened um for the last I don't know 50 years. I imagine this has been longer. It's probably always been going on, I should say. Um, this is just another little branch of it within charismaticism. >> I'm afraid to say that we're trying to start a reformation of the charismatic movement because >> someone already tried that new apostolic reformation. [laughter] So, we're going to try to avoid associating ourselves with anything that even resembles such >> I mean uh simp. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I love that. No, and that's that's right. We are very Protestant and are are still protesting Rome and would protest some of these excesses as well. Uh let's just start off at the top as we talked about uh the uh that that culture of uh celebrity status. Um what may be uh considered idolatry at times. Uh who wants to pick it up there? I know Miller has got no shortage of things to say about celebrity status. >> Yeah, sure. Um, well, let me back up to this because I think it's more than just uh celebrity status. I I also think there's a a thing called narcissism that's driving a lot of this. And I'll just I'm going to give you a little anecdote on the front end of this that I think was helpful for me when I was trying to explain uh when I came from something just like this is I was I was trying to figure out like I had just lost so many friends after I u left my former community and you know I was thinking maybe I'm the problem. Maybe the issue is all me. maybe I'm a narcissist and just can't see it. And I remember asking a therapist like saying, "Hey, is it possible that I'm a narcissist?" And he was like, "No, Michael, narcissists don't ask that question." And I said, "Well, okay. Is this person a narcissist in the the church I came from?" And he said, "Well, let me put it this way. That church is a narcissistic church led by a narcissist." And I was like, "Okay, you're gonna have to unpack that." And he did. He he kind of explained how he was a part of a a marriage practice um that they really believed that if you really wanted help for your marriage, you needed to come to their practice. Sure, you know, there were other therapeutic practices that could help with marriages, but not really. If you really wanted your marriage fixed, this is the place. And I honestly think he was helping me see exactly what we're seeing in many of these charismatic movements is they talk as though there's something special and unique that God is only doing there and not everywhere else. And so I I think it is what is part of this celebrity culture and idolatry that we in the western world we really love. Um, it's an area where our our culture has um has sort of crept into the church. So, I think that makes a good intro if you want to kind of define what we mean more. What do you think? Well, I think I I was kind of thinking about your experience in particular in uh Upper Room, >> uh the former church that you were at and how uh you guys started as I mean maybe maybe I'll let you kind of frame how you guys started, but it seemed to be uh an everyone in the same uh group, everyone was trying to contribute, everyone was trying to serve, but as things begin to grow and go on, uh you have one individual who kind of rises to the top and all the other leaders are kind pushed to the side and marginalized or even pushed out um so that one guy can shine. And I think that that was for the sake of having some celebrity status, not as something that was just naturally gleaned from a leadership position, but something that was intentionally orchestrated, someone I don't know, vying for that that status. >> Yeah. I mean, I would always say there was there was one main leader at the top, Michael Miller from Upper Room. But I would also say that it was much more of a team effort. I mean, he used to say things like, I, you know, I came from a church where everything and he was, he was referring to like the the branch church of Christ. He's like, where everything revolved around that senior pastor and I just don't ever want to do that. And I was like, oh, that's great. And so, in my mind, I had, you know, in the back of my head a plurality kind of model that Jack Deer had taught, but also with the idea of some of the NAR stuff that I had learned from Bethl and Danny Silk's book, Culture of Honor. I say that to my shame and regret. Um, but it still was this idea that we would all kind of play a part. And as things grew, that shifted, no doubt. Um, he it became pretty apparent that he would find a new voice to listen to uh to help him, you know, maintain what he had been building and going in a certain direction. I I swear there was like a new adviser that came in every six months. And when it came to having our input, slowly, little by little, all of our input got pushed to the side and we all eventually got pushed out. And uh it was, you know, yeah, it was a pretty uh painful exit, but that is what happened. I mean, he he became the it especially when the music took off. I think when Opera Music became world famous and everybody was singing our songs, um I mean there were all kinds of like weird things like contracts being pushed out there where the artists would get nothing and then there was a little coup within that uh world where they were all bucking up against that because we're like, "Hey, we're not going to make any money off of this thing that the church and you are making a lot of money off of, you So there was there started being strife all throughout it which very much reminds me of the kind of thing that that uh Paul seems to warn about with the whole Apollos and Paul kind of thing and you know who's your leader who's your apostolic oversight and um I don't know there was just a lot of jockeying to get to the to get to the top which was Michael Miller. He was the pinnacle of the the movement. He still is in my opinion. >> You got any thoughts on Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Roundry uh same any thoughts on celebrity culture? Yeah, I you know I just wonder if there's something within uh just charismatic culture and and even just theology and this belief and the power of the Holy Spirit that even lends itself toward higher degrees of platforming really charismatic people. Uh I think of for instance in Corenth in 1 Corinthians 3 where they they were building up these certain individuals and like I follow this guy and I follow that guy and Paul says in 1 Corinthians 3 neither this guy nor that guy is anything but God is the one who makes things grow and and I look at at Paul's ministry and it's like he's uh he's continually sort of like shoving this kind of attention off and uh and you know for instance in 2 Corinthians 11 when he's defending his apostilhip Like you never see Paul like talking about oh and our movement. We've been shephering our movement and it's just so hard to shepherd all these millions. I mean Paul had an incredible like trail of success if you look at the number of churches planted and converts and baptisms and all of these things. And yet what you see him boasting about is his weaknesses. And when somebody is questioning his credentials because Paul wasn't like the best public speaker and Corinth had some really a team public speakers. So, he's kind of JV uh and and just not that impressive. And he's like, "Hey, actually, if you want me to brag, here we go. Uh I'll brag about my weaknesses and I'll brag about my sufferings." And I I see sort of the opposite of that in the charismatic church. But but Corinth was the sort of prototypical original uh charismatic chaos church and celebrity culture church. And I I just wonder if there's something about that that goes together. I'm also thinking about Acts chapter 8 with Simon the sorcerer. It actually says at the beginning that he he believed and was baptized and uh or maybe it just says baptized. I can't remember but uh but either way he's baptized with the rest of the town and then Peter and John come and come in and they're laying hands on people and people are being baptized in the Holy Spirit and Simon wants the power for himself. Well, we read at the beginning of the passage that in Acts chapter 8, Simon thought that he was somebody great and uh and Peter rebukes him and says this this is you're not of the right spirit. He saw the greed inside of his heart. It's like we need more people who are willing to deliver those kinds of rebukes. Uh more people who are willing to say hey this isn't right uh this kind of ambition. And uh and and so I guess one question I have is is is there some sort of like like we believe theologically we're convinced in the continuation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I think that I could uh I could defend it against anybody from the scripture because all I have to do is read the Bible to them. Uh and uh I mean maybe that's oversimplifying, but I I think there are very clear scriptures that teach continuation and that teach against cessationism. And yet at the same time within charismatic churches, we have this uh proclivity toward celebrity culture. We're not the only ones. There's celebrity culture within cessationism, but it seems like there's this special proness. And maybe it's the fact that you you get supernatural power on one side and then you just get plain old power and and it's it's really hard to have those two um not not be sort of becomes this sort of contaminating mixture if you will. So I wonder if there's something on that. Uh but I I guess and I'll let you guys comment on that in a moment. But the other thing is uh you know I've been a a pastor for over 20 years. One of the the my favorite books about just being a pastor is the uh by the autobiography by Eugene Peterson. It's just called The Pastor. I [snorts] want to read just a few quotes from it. And I think it just captures really um a lot of what we see especially in American charismatic church culture. And um he says uh here are a few quotes. He says, "The vocation of a pastor has been replaced by the strategies of religious entrepreneurs with business plans." I'm going to read just a few of them. Uh he says, "We've developed a professionalized ministry that values popularity, reputation, success over prayer, patience, and depth." Depth. The basic responsibility of pastoral work is to help people grow in God, not to run religious organizations. Ambition is the enemy of spiritual formation. Uh anyway, I could keep going, but it's all essentially that the most essential work of the pastor is invisible. Um, and and I just like I just really honor what Eugene Peterson did. And it's like he actually did get kind of famous through his, you know, message Bible and and that kind of thing. But he really pressed into he has another book called the contemplative pastor. And uh he really pressed into just being a quiet person of prayer, not a person of ambition. And I think that's just the opposite what we see and especially in the charismatic movement. And I and I think there's some sort of contamination that's happening. And I I'm just curious what you guys think of that. Uh if you think there is some kind of proclivity within charismaticism itself that lends itself in the direction of selfish ambition. >> Yeah, I think so. But I think that it has to do with a lot of the virtues of the things that you pursue. I think that we can pursue many things within the Christian faith and still be in the guardrails of what it is to be in the Christian faith. You know, Paul tells the church of Corinth to pursue love and earnestly desire spiritual gifts. Um, but I think that the flip side, you've got another group in Ephesus who is following all the doctrinal prescripts and they're they're warning people about false doctrine, but they've left their first love. And there may be a proclivity to those who are drawn to intellectual rigor and and having all the right facts and knowing the truth, but lacking love and and compassion and in pursuit of those sorts of things. uh and I think that that each of us are probably wired uh in such a way and because of that we somewhat self- select into different movements. I I find if if you're actually one who is very analytical and logical and theological, you might need to find yourself in a charismatic space. And if you're a person uh who's very uh you know uh whimsical when it comes to the moving of the spirit, maybe you find yourself in a in a very uh rockolid biblical teaching church because I think that they begin to balance this out a little bit. Um, but I think that there is a correlation there uh to again the pursuit of power and then raising up teachers for us. I think that uh one of the things that it does and and I'll say this in all respects if you're very apologetically wired even if you cannot hold um a debate because you don't have the the kind of mental faculties. You just love listening to debates. You love jumping on and listening to James White. of jumping online and listening to uh you know Frank Turk and and and Tim Barnett and and these guys who are doing the apologetics work um because we like and gravitate to people who can do the things that we can't and I think there's some aspect of that when it comes to the charismatic space that we kind of lift up teachers uh that are doing the things that we long to see and long to do and it's unfortunate that many of those teachers have fabricated their stories as a way to get propped up. Um, one of the things that you guys have both mentioned is 1 Corinthians uh, chapter uh, 3:es 1-7 or even further. I think it's like 1-1. But that text, it talks about how uh, you know, I wanted to come to you and feed you with solid food, but I have to come and feed you with milk. And he's like, the reason that is the case is because you guys are quabbling over who's who's following who. I'm following Apollos. I'm following Paul. Celebrity culture, I think, stunts spiritual development with inside of the body of Christ. I think that's what Paul is addressing in first Corinthians is is they are watching and living their lives vicariously through their teachers. Apollos is this great guy. Paul is that is this great guy. And they're they're kind of uh you know like you would a sports team, you know, like I don't play for the San Francisco 49ers. I don't I don't play for the Dallas Cowboys. And there are people out there who love these teams and if their team loses, it affects their day-to-day life and their pleasure and their joy throughout the week. And if their team does great, they feel like they've done great because they've identified with that team. And I think that's what happens a lot with these charismatic leaders is that we've lifted them up to a place of idolatry in our heart because they're doing the things that we long to do and we kind of use them as an example and we live vicariously through them and it actually stunts our spiritual development where their lives should be an example for us to follow and to kind of live out those steps. Instead, we've kind of just allowed them to do the work for us. Um, and I think that's a problem. Um, I think there's also >> Go ahead, Miller. [laughter] I was going to say I think one of the other parts of it is um the entry bar for charismatic Christianity is really low. You know, it's already it has a reputation for being anti-intellectual, but that reputation is not without um how do I say it? There's good reasons to think that about the charismatic movement. You know, people will Bill Johnson himself, he'll he'll teach, hey, you're to be spiritledd, not mind led, as if those things were opposed to each other. And so when it comes to the entry bar of of getting into the charismatic movement and being somebody, anybody with selfish ambition, doors are wide open. I think between them, the charismatic and arc, which is probably sort of a charismatic-ish evangelical network, um any kind of selfish ambition, it's like welcome. Yeah, here come plant a church. The qualifications very very low. >> But then on top of that, you've got this uh need, I think, for all of us to be a to feel a part of something. um something much bigger than ourselves. And I think for the narcissistic person who's got selfish ambition, uh it's very easy for that person to draw people in who want to be a part of something bigger than themselves by constantly talking about how look at what is happening here. You're a part of this thing, this special thing that's different here than everywhere else. And so you can get swept up in it, not even realizing that it's semi-toxic when you get in. you're already so far along and you you drink that Kool-Aid pretty easily. It's a it's a grooming process to get you to buy in and and sell yourself to that vision. I I remember one of the things that was said constantly in the movement I was a part of again I say movement as as a really uh pjorative term not a not a positive term um but he used to say uh you need to die in this soil this is good soil and if you'll just give your life to this then God will birth something in you that you could never birth on your own >> and I'm like man last I checked the soil you need to die in is God's kingdom and your church ain't that um but it It man it sells it. It really does. It draws you in and it's selling you a counterfeit. >> Yeah. Yeah. That I just I hate that because it's really instead of like take up your cross and die and follow Jesus, it's follow this leader and lay it all down for their organization. And the problem is these kinds of organizations when you're really in need, they're going to be so administratively strapped. They've got so many people to shepherd in their movement. They're not going to have time for you anyway. And even worse, if there's an actual abuse claim, they'll probably just uh deflect and blame you. And uh and so it it's just it's really sad that so many people are giving their life to uh to this. And uh you know, a couple of things I thought about while you were talking. And one is like that these because what I'm seeing here is between IHOP, Bethl, and Hill Song, these are like the three biggest charismatic hubs and centers uh in the world or or were. And uh and and it's like Jesus is just I mean, if you read Revelation 2 and 3, Jesus judges his church and it's it's like he just took his sword and he swung it across and he says, "I'm tired of this mess." Uh and and it's not the devil who's exposing it. It's Jesus. And it's a good thing, like you said, Miller. But one of the things that I'm just thinking about is that with these three big hubs, I mean, so much of how they built themselves, it wasn't by like reaching their local community. It's they got really famous and people moved there. And I've just talked to so many people who like packed their bags and moved to some distant church to go be part of the thing that's bigger than themselves to be swept up in this great movement of God. And uh and it's like it's deprived the local churches of the gifts that they would have brought to their local church. Maybe it's musical gifts. Oh, we're going to go up and join the 500 musicians over at IHOP. And uh and then you have this little local church in, you know, country Arkansas or something that doesn't have a worship leader now, you know? And I'm just it's like they they create with their big personalities and big platforms this giant center of gravity where everybody is just moving to them. And it just feels really self-serving. And um and yeah, and on the low bar piece, I I liked what you said there, Miller, because I, you know, in denominational structures, you know, historically, it's like somebody had to go through seminary. Uh and if you're a charlatan, like you may not want to take the time to go through seminary and all that. If if if you can just plant a church and you're automatically qualified because you speak passionately, then you're just going to take that track. No wonder there's more of that in the charismatic church. And of course, I'm saying this as like not one of the three of us even has a seminary to say. [laughter] >> Yeah. >> That's why we're all charismatic, bro. >> That said, I think seminary is good. I do. I'm I'm glad that people go to it. I, you know, it used to be a joke in charismatic circles. I'm sure it still is, but it's part of that anti-intellectual sort of humor, which is like, oh, you went to seminary. Oops, I mean seminary. And it's like, no, seminary is actually good. And one part part of it is the education. Uh but then part of it is it actually weeds out charlatans because they don't ain't nobody got time for that, you know, they just want to go plant a church and start a movement. So anyway, yes and all the things you said, Miller. >> That's really important and I want to touch on that. You guys have both mentioned movement language over and over. And one of the things that you'll find is in the language of the movement in IHOP, the movement in Hillsong, and the movement at Bethl Church, they will refer to their organization as a movement because they realize it is not local church ministry. It's not disciplehip of the person in front of me. It's not caring for and and I'm not saying that they don't do that. I want to be very clear. I'm not saying that Bethl does absolutely none no caring of the individual in front of them or disciplehip of those individuals. I'm not saying that about IHOP and its ministry. And I'm not saying that [clears throat] about Hillsong. However, I have noticed that all of those ministries when they're speaking even to their own congregation, they keep referencing the movement as in like, "Hey, I know you just see these people sitting in this room, but there's something much bigger going on outside of there." And even in Beth Bethl's sermon recently, he'll he'll say like, "Hey, you know, it's hard to pastor a movement of millions and millions of people." And and their focus is not as it seems on pastoring those that they'll give an account for. it seems about shaping the kind of global space of the charismatic movement. It's it's really movementoriented and and there was a a study that was done uh by the multidisciplinarian digital publishing institution um the uh MDPI uh that talked about those who seek fame and and when I think and talking about specifically those who are seeking fame and the kind of narcissistic traits that accompany it. Um, and in this correlation, it seems as if those who are pursuing this have a a kind of low response towards empathy, uh, a low response to kind of like caring for others. Uh, and they're really focused a lot on kind of how how their legacy is going to impact the global sphere. And and I want to say I think with some caution that we as Christians should be looking with like heavenly eyes like we should probably have some what will my life mean in light of eternity. I I I think that and and certainly uh people who are at the last leg of their race are trying to think of like how can they make an impact on the kingdom of God and destroy the kingdom of darkness. And I think that's ultimately a good thing. Uh however, I just think that we have to avoid these kinds of, you know, um delusions of grandeur where we kind of uh think of ourselves bigger than we ought. We think of ourselves more highly than we should and we're trying to uh man impact the globe instead of just the person in front of us. Even the ministry of Jesus, yes, he was looking to save the world, but but he was slow. And the way that he did that was discipling 12 guys. the way that he changed the world was being slow that when the woman with the issue of blood touched him, he stopped everything that he was doing. Uh that, you know, hey, here's this woman caught in the act of adultery and it seems like he's giving her his full attention by riding in the dirt to reach her. Um it seems as if the ministry of Jesus when it started to blow up and become big and everybody was coming out to see, he went to the outskirts of town. He tried to hide away in the wilderness to preach the gospel there. He wasn't focused on this massive momentum, this massive movement. how many people could follow me in the crowd, it seems as if Jesus's focus was making sure that the people he was discipling were getting the best of him. Um, and I I think that we as a as a charismatic movement, there it is again. We need to shift our focus from how can I make this global impact and focus it back on how can I make a global impact by investing into a few people, the best that I possibly can, giving them my full undivided attention, placing the focus back on the local church and and not on people that I'll never meet. These guys are talking about being called spiritual fathers and mothers to people that they'll never ever meet. And and that is like an unholy place of authority to have in someone's life. You you don't want that. You don't want people to have that. Um uh you know I' I've told people who've tried to move to Ada Oklahoma to be a part of King's Fellowship Church, don't do that. Like don't move here. Um there's no huge opportunity for you. This is a small town. We moved here on purpose. Um, when when when you think about local ministry, I I would really hope that most Christians can plant in the place that they are and give their best to their local church. As Round Tree said, I think we're we're robbing the body of Christ of its natural resources by all of this chasing of movements and revivals. >> Yeah. Um, >> so I guess here's my here's my question though because like it's just always going to happen that certain people get elevated and sometimes like God is behind it. you know, Peter and Paul, like they were in some ways elevated, even though, you know, Paul dealt with all of his persecution and uh and the churches would turn on him and all of this, there have always been heroes of the faith, if you will. Uh and and you know, what what does a pastor do if he starts preaching and and he's just preaching the gospel and pouring into people and his church grows into the thousands? Should he should he suddenly shut it down? Like I think of for instance uh Shane Holden who uh who pastors a church in on Alaska, Wisconsin, no giant town, but it seems like his church is has pretty much the whole population of the town. I mean, I think he has like 3,000 people in his church or something like that. And Shane is faithful and he lays it down and he loves the Lord. Um so like I I don't think we don't want to communicate like, hey, small local churches are better than big local churches. Like not really making an argument about size of church here. uh there there's maybe a mentality, but m maybe you guys could speak into that a little bit that uh we're not suggesting that like, hey, if God blesses your church with a lot a lot of growth, you just need to shut it down. Uh we're not saying that. So, what are we saying? Uh Miller, do you want to chime in? >> Yeah. I think what you're saying is we're not necessarily trying to build something that the whole world takes note of. Um I think I think I'd be okay to share this. I'm pretty sure. I was talking to Matt Chandler when it came to his church u being practically sessationist to beginning to embrace the gifts as normative practice in their community. And um you know he he never intended to become just this have this reputation of being a charismatic community but they were also uh outgrowing their facility and they're like well hey you know if if we start really embracing the gifts you know people are going to leave. and he's like, "Oh, well that's that could mean we don't have to buy a bigger building. We don't have to do a fundraising campaign, so that all works out great." I I [laughter] love that attitude. Like, I really did. He's like, "I just want to be scriptural. I I want to do the right thing." And, you know, again, I I think of this is what Jesus did. He he he slimmed the crowd when he talked about um you know, you have to drink my blood and eat my flesh. like he he wasn't interested in having the whole world take note of it in that kind of way. He was interested in making disciples who made disciples and like the the the kingdom of God being like 11 that slowly permeates the whole loaf. And so uh but but what we're seeing today is the building of something the whole world should take note of. Like I think of Jesus image and the call for everybody to move there. And honestly, almost all of these places, if I was to look at the filter, the the the the funnel, not filter, the funnel, um there's always some sort of ministry school that they convince everybody to come to so that you can get the goods uh of whatever they have. And in this way, they kind of like get you in and they keep you there and they tie you down because at that point, you're in and you're indoctrinated into this thing that now is so special. Why would you ever leave this? In fact, that's kind of how they treat people when you leave. They're like, "Oh, there must be something wrong with that person because who would leave this?" So, it's that same kind of narcissism I'm talking about the the the narcissism of the organization and not just its leader. >> Yeah. I would say to Roundre's question, the way that I would answer it is that our aim should be faithfulness, not necessarily successfulness as it is determined by the lens of the world. So if you're faithful in your local church and Shane Holden has been caring for those person those persons in front of him doing his best to multiply pastors and care for the needs of the people and God would continue to add to their number daily. Praise God. You know the New Testament church was a very large church very quickly. Um and their aim was to care for those people in front of them. They did not have these delusions of grandeur. Those things are different. this this idea to be famous and well known and to seek approval and to win the hearts and minds and like change the world uh because you have some kind of me messianic complex that you're living in. That's a not a good thing. Our aim is to point people to Jesus, not to ourselves, not to our greatness. Um our aim is to just be faithful. And sometimes faithfulness looks like mud huts in Africa. And sometimes faithfulness looks like pastoring a village church in Flower Mount, Texas. and and I am not scoffing at either of those individuals who are giving their life for the gospel and and have different uh tests that they're going to have to go through. You know, a Matt Chandler is going to be tempted, a Shane Hold is going to be tempted in a very different way uh than the pastor who's in the mud hut in Africa. Uh there's going to be very different temptations and I don't really uh covet either of those temptations. Um and yet I would just say that our aim is faithfulness, not successfulness. when our eyes are on being big and great and a super apostle like the whole book of second Corinthians is all about uh we lead people into all kinds of destructive habits and tendencies. Um, yeah. >> Yeah. And and I would say too that uh that if you are because most of the people watching aren't pastors, they're people who go to churches uh Christians and and so from just more of a discernment perspective, I just think like through the lens of Acts chapter 20 where uh where Paul's talking about the kind of shepherd that he is, like I was with you and pouring my life out and night and day and with tears and rebuking and warning and encouraging and serving and working hard with my hands and so on. People should look at the pastor and say, "That's one of the hardest working people in the church." They should look at the pastor and say, "Uh, he's he's he's always staying late and picking up chairs and serving. Uh, he's somebody who cares about the poor, uh, and the weak and the needy. When there's a a widow in the congregation, uh, when there's somebody in the hospital, he's there. If you're shephering a movement, you honestly just don't have time for those kinds of things." Uh but like when Paul is saying and Paul I mean far more than any of these charismatic leaders today I I say any of like Paul Paul was uh spearheading a movement if you will and yet he was rolling up his sleeves and working his tail off and he was able to say to the Ephesian elders in Acts 20 look I've been doing this you need to know look look no further than my example I was with you night and day doing these exact things. And I think uh I I think a lot of pastors are invisible but not in the way that Eugene Peterson was talking about like this sort of quiet servitude uh uh and or in the place of prayer and those kind of things. Uh a lot of pastors are invisible because they're invisible in their green rooms and they're not around their people. And so I would just say regardless of whatever size of the church it is like uh seek to have the level of visibility that you can say uh this is a really hardworking pastor who's really caring about his people. Uh and I think that's what we need more than this celebrity culture. Uh and the two are at war with one another. uh because you can't be a celebrity like [clears throat] drinking up from the well of celebrity and doing the kinds of things Paul talks about an elder must do in a in Acts chapter 20. >> So I think that's from a discernment perspective. >> So we we've gotten 40 minutes on just celebrity pastors. We've got like five things that we're trying to hit on. Uh let's move to governance gaps. We've got three different topics here in governance gaps. We've talked about like the the solo leadership model, the CEO at the top. Some people call it the Moses model of leadership. Um there's a apostolic oversight. A lot of these movements and a lot of these local churches that appeal to movement language have external elders that are outside of their local organization uh that they say that they're accountable to and it's really more like life coaching. Um there's no ecclesiological authority. Another thing that we can talk about is kind of n structures of leadership. So apostles and prophets at the top. I I don't think Hillsong could fall into that kind of articulation of apostles and prophets at the top. So I don't think they fall into that category. Uh but I think that all of these other things are at least applicable to uh those three core movements. >> So the CEO model for sure. Uh so maybe not all three, but certainly a couple of them I think apply. So uh why don't you guys take that? Uh Miller, do you want to go first? You got one of these. You you feel you got a what do they call that? Something in your craw. Anyway, I forget. Uh, I'm trying to find a southern phrase uh that you want to you want to tackle? >> You mean of of the three of those, the apostolic oversight? Okay. >> I mean, I can talk on pretty easy, but I think all of us could. I I let me talk a little bit about the apostolic oversight. Uh we we obviously saw this play out really really well with the Shawn Bull's accountability, right? On one level, he's saying uh Bethl is my spiritual family. They're my oversight. Um and yet Chayon is on his apostolic oversight. And when push came to shove, when it came to actually holding him accountable, you have Bethl over here saying, "It's not my problem, it's Chayons's." And you got Chayon over here saying, "It's not my problem. It's Bethl's." Um, and that's how that played out. At the end of the day, there was no accountability because anybody could pass the buck. Um, I I remember when I was planting this church, I had another church that was uh going to help me do this, and it was part of the Ark, and I was kind of like I didn't know much about Ark at the time. This was back in um when was this, 2019. And so I, you know, was was getting some coaching from somebody who came out of the Ark Network. And uh when the day came for me to decide what is this going to look like, I decided to go with these guys uh from Crossroads up in Aspen who had a plurality of elders. I just thought that was a more biblical model. And after everything I came out of in the sort of NAR world, I wanted to move towards what I saw as the most biblical uh thing out there. And I when when I talked to this guy who was sort of coaching me and he was telling me how you know he had Brady Boyd on his board and uh Robert Morris on his board which is so interesting that I didn't go with him when you look back on who his board members were. U but when push came to shove this guy you know he really left me high and dry uh financially. there was money promised that he didn't uh fulfill on. And so I had moved my family to Colorado to plant this church and suddenly I I didn't have anything to go with. Um and it was because I chose not to go uh at least in my opinion and my interpretation of it was that I chose not to go with that model. Instead, I wanted these elders in Aspen to be my oversight until I had a local plurality of elders established. Well, when he left me high and dry, I reached out to his elders and they're like, "Oh, there's nothing they could do." his [laughter] elders had no oversight. And then good luck getting a hold of Robert Morris and Brady Boyd to hold him accountable. But that's what happens is you get somebody with some sort of high-profile name that you can draw on their credibility from the outside to be your on your apostolic board, but then when it comes to actually those that group holding them accountable, there's no way to contact them. Um, it actually guarantees that there never will be accountability. And I think we see that in most of the arc world in a CEO uh sort of corporate model of leadership. >> Yeah. >> One of my mentors in life used to use this phrase there can no there can be no accountability without authority. Uh and everybody wants to be accountable to people that have no authority in their life. So it's really easy for me to be accountable to a guy who discipled me in my 20s. Uh so that when a big local dispute erupts in my church, he has no authority to kick me out. I but I'm accountable to him. That's not how it works. There can be no accountability without authority. You know, I'm accountable to Jayon, said Shawn Bulls. I'm accountable to Bethl Church. Well, when they told you like this is bad, you need to not do this. Well, they had no authority in his life. He could just go down the road and do it somewhere else. So there there I mean, and to be fair, that's true of any situation, but at least there would be some kind of public rebuke. there'd be some kind of discipline that takes place. If you have someone that's on your board that can actually fire you, there would be some kind of disciplinary action. So, so true accountability requires some kind of authority appealing to all of these external elders and these external apostolic voices. I mean, you think about mercy culture. They have a group of external elders, right? And Michael Brown is one of their external elders. I mean, how is he going to hold you accountable? Like, I just it's just not a thing. Um, okay. So, uh, round tree, do you want to tackle Moses model, leadership, SEO, CEO model, uh, churches? >> Sure. >> Sure. When we when we talk about the Moses model, it's basically, you know, Moses goes up on the mountain, he gets his revelation, then he tells the people of God, "Here it is. Here's what we got to do." And, and he's pretty much running the show. And granted, Jethro came along. He's like, "Hey, you need some help." So, he raised up people to help. And so, uh, but that's even true in any Moses model. It's not like they have no helpers at all. Uh it's not like they don't have elders. Those structures are ostensively in place. Uh but functionally this man pretty much calls all the shots. And uh and in the charismatic movement, now this can happen in any church anywhere. Uh but in the charismatic church, the way it often happens is his ability to call the shots is reinforced supernaturally. So, uh, so just like Moses goes up on the mountain and gets a revelation, uh, this person gets his revelation about what things are supposed to look like and hey, you know, I I got this vision from God and here's what we need to do and the angel said this and then we got to do that and so on. uh like Mike Mike Bickl at IHOP. I mean it it was very very much part of their culture, the prophetic history of IHOP, which of course uh we found out that um uh a a lot of it was fabricated and how much of it is all up for debate and we're not really that's not really our subject for today. But uh but definitely there were lies, there were exaggerations and uh and all all that it did was it it built up Bickl as the hero of the movement and it uh and it established his vision that God was starting this prayer movement on the earth because angels and prophets and visions and supernatural signs in the heavens and all all this decreed it. So who was going to argue with that? And you know, I I got to admit myself because this was a naive in me. Uh when I saw this and I heard this like before everything was exposed. Uh I I remember thinking like how uncomfortable I was that Mike Bickl that some of his biblical interpretations were based on things that like Bob Jones prophesied to him. And I was like, uh, that made me queasy because really biblical interpretation doesn't come by prophets just telling you, hey, the Jews are more important than you thought. You know, um, it comes by just exugesus and what is the grammatical and historical type context. And so that's how we interpret the Bible. Uh, but then when you uh when you add to that, it's there's the biblical interpretation side aided by prophets extremely uncomfortable. But then their ecclesiology was and Josh, I remember you and I talking about this beforehand. >> I I expressed a lot of discomfort about the ecclesiology. >> All three of us. Yeah. But uh but I I remember specifically talking about like, man, I think it's bad. But you know, at the same time, it's just you see so many churches with bad ecclesiology were kind of like, well, there's bad ecclesiology, but at least they got a lot of people praying and worshiping, so that's cool. And uh and I I think that was naive because bad ecclesiology really facilitates uh spiritual abuse and uh and all the harms that were suffered were accelerated by an ecclesiology that had essentially Mike at the top uh number one and uh as as sort of the sole visionary leader that there yes he had other leaders but but it was really all Mike but but number two this one this part was really weird and uncomfortable. There was 4Erunner Church that had its own elders, but Forerunner Church was sort of a subsidiary of IHOP, the prayer movement. And so you actually had this sort of hierarchical picture of a prophetic vision where the movement is what governs more than the local church. And uh and I know there's like weeds and details that we could all get into there, but I just see no biblical precedent for that where there's the tail wagging the dog. there's a prayer there's a prayer movement with this council of of leaders and they're going to tell the elders over here what needs to happen with 4Runner church and and I'm sure they gave a lot of latitude to the elders of 4Runner church but but at the same time in no world is a local church underneath a prayer movements weird structure like that it just didn't make sense. We talked a lot about that. We were uncomfortable with it. But again, we put it into the category of that's bad ecclesiology, but whatever. They're doing some good stuff. And I think kind of after all this, I think we learned it was like, okay, that's bad ecclesiology. It actually needed to be called out because it helped perpetuate some of this harm. So, you know, we've learned. But, uh, anyway, but that's the Moses model. It pretty much centered on uh on Mike. And there are a lot of churches like this. Again, it happens in cessationist circles, too. Uh and and and by the way, when we're critiquing this, we're not saying like it's bad for churches to have a leader uh who works amongst a plurality of leaders. I mean, God raises up leaders in churches. That just happens. Leadership is actually a spiritual gift. So, God is not anti- leadership, but he is anti- uh one dude at the top who calls the shots and you pretty much just have to obey. uh one leader who's not accountable to anybody and one leader who can get prophetic revelation about the Bible and one leader who can get prophetic revelation about the direction of the church that nobody can challenge. So those are all problems and and I think it's multiplied and you know it's called the quote prayer movement because even though IHOP has uh seriously gone down the there are lots of other houses of prayer that follow this same kind of model. So, uh, so it really is still continuing to be a problem. >> There's, >> I'd take it one step further, uh, when it comes to the accountability problem. I don't think Mike just half-hazardly fell into a bad ecclesiology. I think he chose an ecclesiology where nobody could fire him. I remember one of the main confrontations I had when I got fired from my former church was someone else telling the leader, "Uh, you know what your problem is? nobody can fire you. And then I repeated that exact same phrase. And he wasn't concerned about the fact that no one could fire him. He was more concerned about the fact that I had heard that phrase from someone else who had told him that. Um that I think I think he chose that ecclesiology just like I think a lot of people who get into the ark world and into the nar and into the Moses model, those models are chosen because you can keep your job. you don't have to worry about anybody ever removing you because it's darn near impossible. >> You know, I think uh church society may be talking in tongue and cheek. They they gave a face palm, you know, [clears throat] after they made this statement. So, I'm not sure. I'm not trying to uh defame this person, but I do want to address uh at least an idea that they may personally hold or maybe uh suggesting that other people hold that's actually really bad. So, I'm not really sure. But they say even if a leader is biblically disqualified, sorry, it's so small on your screen. uh it may not matter because God already spoke about his role to the movement. So uh this is actually a thing that people will appeal to like hey Moses wasn't perfect but God still left him in power. You know David he really screwed up but God left him in power. You know Solomon he he married all these wives and God left him in power. And that's one of the arguments is that if you're the anointed man then there's absolutely nothing that can be done to remove said anointed man. However, I want the audience to be aware uh that these individuals were pretty historical figures in redemptive history. Uh take David and Solomon for example. Uh if you were to remove David before he had raised up in error, the Davidic line would no longer be promised to the line of David. So is David punished for his sin? Yes, severely. His son died and and the sword never departed from his house after he had committed such high-handed sin. So, David is actually uh an individual who received a much heavier penalty than being removed from power. Uh, every single one of us on this podcast, every single person I believe genuinely uh you know that we're talking about when it comes to IHOP and Bethl and Hillsong, each one of us would rather step down from leadership than one of our children die. I mean, that is that is extremely harsh. Uh so, so when we say, "Hey, uh is there a penalty for these kinds of uh sins?" Well, yeah. Uh, in the New Testament, we have a prescription of what to do with leaders who fall into sin, that refuse to repent. You publicly warn and rebuke publicly, so the rest stand in fear. So, you might be over here going, "Well, you know, God's God's anointed this man. He's the man of power for the hour." Uh, but and then appeal to Old Testament text and ignore New Testament prescriptions. Just remember that those Old Testament texts of David not being removed and Solomon not being removed. Certainly, there were consequences to both of these men. And even Solomon's kingdom was divided into the northern and southern kingdoms under Rahobam and Jerobom. So there was penalty for all of these guys. But the reason they weren't removed from power was because there was a promise. And the discipline of God cannot outweigh the promise of God as it relates to the birth of the Messiah from this Davidic line. So we can't go to Old Testament texts that talk about the kings and say, "Well, therefore, we can't discipline our leaders." Uh that's a bad that's actually what you get from people propagating the Moses model of leadership. That's horrific. >> Actually, I I would take it further. I think the fact that they're using an example about Old Testament kings kings to make an argument about why pastors who sin need to stay in power says something about how they view pastoral ministry. They view themselves as kings. And so the monarchy of Israel was very different from pastoral ministry in a local church. And I mean it was a government. If you uh if you just immediately I you you look at the history of the kings, they were all evil. You God would have had to like remove one and then replace them with another every 15 minutes. That is actually kind of what happens when you read the Old Testament. But >> yeah, >> but we shouldn't compare the monarchy to pastoring a local church. That's actually not the same. Nor should we ch should we um look at God's providential dealings with humankind and say this is how I need to uh to do pastoral ministry even when God's given me uh clear protocols that puts you in the place of God. No, God can decide when he's going to judge wickedness. Sometimes he judges it quickly. Sometimes he judges it more slowly. He always ultimately judges it. That's his prerogative. But for me as a leader in a local church, I can't sit back and say, "Oh, well, sometimes God delays his judgment on the wicked, so uh I'm not gonna take wicked people out of leadership." Like that's your argument. No. So the person making these arguments has one made themselves a king and two made themselves God. Neither of those is a good argument. No. If you're an elder and a pastor and a shepherd, look at what the New Testament says about those actual positions. And it does say things about that. And a and a pastor is actually to be publicly rebuked in 1 Timothy 5:21. Uh and you know, Paul publicly rebukes Peter to his face. And and so there is protocol for this. And uh and there's church discipline and all of these things. We should look at the clear statements of scripture about how flocks are to be shepherded. Uh not how did God providentially deal with wickedness in the world or uh how did he providentially deal with wicked kings. No, just look at what the scripture tells you to do and then do that. So, I think that's what I would say. >> That's right. So, when we talk about like the CEO models, the last thing I'll say on this is that we're not saying that you have to have a plurality of elders like we do. Now, I think it's the most biblical. It's what I want. Maybe you have a congregational model. Maybe you have an Episcopal model or a presbetry or something like that. We're just saying that there needs to be some kind of plurality, some kind of mutual submission to one another to safeguard the church. Does that mean that your church is going to live in a utopia and there's never going to be problems and you're not you're not going to have to deal with stuff? No. None of us are claiming that. However, if you have a problem that's taking place and the guy at the top is the one who's got the problem, there's no way to fix that problem. So, we would say that there needs to be some kind of plurality and and discipline there. Now the next thing that we have under uh the kind of gaps in leadership is what we call the the nar the new apostolic reformation leadership structure which suggests that apostles and prophets are at the top of the ladder and they kind of disseminate all that information down. The prophets find the new kind of vision or mission that God has for us and the apostle then kind of administrates the church to get that thing accomplished. Now if you take that idea from C Peter Wagner and then you lay on top of it Danny Silk's model of culture of honor then you see that teachers according to their view are these individuals who are consumed with doctrine and they do nothing but divide the body of Christ and they quibble over the finite points. And then it's like well no wonder they are able to publish things like the physics of heaven. No wonder it, you know, that they're promoting things like the Passion translation or having Kenneth Copeland come and speak at their church because they have robbed their whole body of teachers. And the teachers who are present, uh, they have trained them to say, "Hey, look, don't be divisive because that's not what the body of Christ is all about." Uh, but but you actually do need people who are discerning, who are biblically savvy, who can help adjudicate. Just like we just mentioned a moment ago, a teacher, someone who who knows the word of God would have able been able to go, well, uh, we can't take Old Testament passages about the kings and then try to flatly apply them to New Testament passages about elders and deacons. That's not how we are to construct those sorts of things. Uh, and I want to be fair to Bethl Church, when they had Kenneth Copeland come out, it sounds like many of their alumni that they had personally trained were pretty outraged by this and and vocalized said outrage to their leadership, says a reliable source. So, all that to say that um I do think that the NR leadership structure has a lot to do with this kind of fallout that we're seeing. Uh because again, you've got apostles and prophets at the top and there's no, and I don't mean this in an ugly way, there's a lack of no is is probably excessive and unfair. There's a lack of theological rigor that is helping them discern through the decisions that they're making. Um, and these decisions are made based off of honor and culture rather than kind of biblical prescription. Guys, we're kind of at 59 minutes already. We're at the five o'clock hour. I've got three other things on here. Okay, keep rolling. I'm happy to roll. >> Yeah, I have I have a comment on this because when we start talking about culture, it goes beyond the actual senior pastor. And I think this is important because the what we don't want to do is we we don't want people to walk away from this being like, "Oh yeah, all the all the lead pastors are bad and they're all into celebrity culture and they all just want to be big and famous." No. If if you act I mean I meet with a lot of local church pastors and most of them are really good guys. Most of them are not just really good guys like good old boys uh but lay down their life for the sheep kind of people. And it can also happen that there is a a culture that is so toxic that it's actually the senior pastor who ends up getting hurt by I was thinking about uh I was traveling there was a pastor I was talking to who've been at a church for uh I think over 15 years and his church loved him and he loved his church and and there was this one particular uh one particular elder that was uh now I only heard this one guy's side so I I don't know for sure but uh but I'll just tell you the story as I heard it but uh but basically He was power obsessed and uh and kept pushing and pushing and then uh anyway, long story short, it ended up in uh he got told like the day of that he was going to have to like announce to his church that he was either leaving or fired. And it was this really awkward, painful situation. He had to leave his church for a decade and a half uh very suddenly. Lots of people were heartbroken. It was over this person. Then he told me, you know, the the church hired a new person and uh that next pastor uh reached out to him like eight months later and was like, "Hey, uh so how was your experience at this church?" And he was experiencing the exact same thing. And and so I say all of this just to say that it can be the senior pastor. It can also be a culture that itself becomes toxic. And so we talk about a culture of control and of image management. And I and I think that's uh that's something that we have to talk about too because it's not like Bill Johnson did all of this himself. Uh it's not like uh Brian Houston did all of this himself. And so there are celebrity pastors who uh who do have a trail of dead bodies behind them. Uh but at the same time there's a whole culture that enables. There's also a culture that is toxic and bullies. And so you guys want to talk about that a little bit? Miller, do you want to talk about it? Well, let me go back to the NAR thing just because I think this is something I've said in the past in former podcast, but I think it's worth people hearing now. One of the main concerns I have with the NAR is uh it creates the same sort of top- down leadership structure when you have the apostle at the top who's supposed to get the vision from God for what God wants to do in that church or that movement for that matter. Um, people don't talk about this a lot, but when your sole responsible is getting the vision from God and that and by that that's supposed to be some sort of supernatural vision. My former pastor Michael Miller at the upper room used to call it God had given him a blueprint uh for the city. Um the problem with that is you have just allowed that person to have cart blanch power to execute any decision on a whim because everything falls under that vision. You say, "Hey, I want to start a disciplehip program to take some of these new believers we have and uh begin the process of of teaching them the basic doctrines of the faith." Yeah, you know, that really just doesn't fit the vision of this church. There are other churches down the road that are doing that, but our vision is this night and day prayer thing. Um, you can see why that can become problematic. I think that's actually similar to what happened at IHOP when you have a ministry running a church rather than a church that runs several ministries. Um, everything became about sourcing that vision and everything else had to be subservient to that. And when you have a person at the top who really likes the power they have or maybe they're just sick of dealing with somebody who has criticisms, they can just, you know, fire you on a whim because you really weren't, you know, fitting within the vision of this community. And so I think that's that's one of the big dangers of the new apostolic reformation is that uh like it or not, the focal point of power is all seated right there with the vision cer. Round tree, ask your question one more time so that I can give feedback to it because I want to circle back to it. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Well, I I want to address not just the, you know, the celebrity, the man at the top who's super powerful and gets this supernatural vision from God uh that everyone must submit to. Yes, that exists and that's a real problem. But I also want to talk about a toxicity of culture within entire leadership teams uh that themselves are bullies and are doing PR and image management and uh and having people sign NDAs and this entire culture that facilitates and enables cover up and uh so I want to talk about that and and the reason is that I know and I actually I saw a pastor in the chat say thank you Michael for saying that because you know he's he's been basically there before and uh and I know a lot of a lot of pastors who've been in that kind of boat. So uh I don't want people walking away saying hey most pastors are just narcissistic obsessed with uh uh you know their PR and platform. I think some are I think charismatic church seems to have more um but at the same time I think there is a a broader cultural leadership uh issue that needs to be addressed. So, I was wondering if you could speak into that, uh, Josh. >> Well, I mean, I I'll just say like, and I can be brief on this. Um, as I mentioned before, there is no leadership structure that is everyone's trying to pull their leadership structure from scripture, right? The Moses model guys will appeal to the Old Testament, which there's problems with that. Um, uh, there are churches who appeal to congregationalism and they'll look to like Matthew 18 and 1 Corinthians 5 and say, "Look, what the church, they have a say in this whole process." um you know the the those who are kind of a plurality of elders we kind of like appeal to the first Timothy text to hey look the elders are governing the affairs of the church. So there's different models um and even the episcopal right apostles seem to oversee the churches at a distance while the elders are actually the boots on the ground doing this stuff but each of those models even as Paul institutes them um he recognizes that there is going to be room for sin and corruption in all of them. Uh so if you think about uh Paul in Acts chapter 20 uh maybe it's 21, but he he says the elders in Ephesus, he's close. He come to Myitus and he's like, "Hey, call for the elders." Uh so they come and they meet him there and in that local town and he goes, "Hey, look guys, I want to warn you uh because after my departure, wolves are going to come from among you guys, from the elders, and they're going to prey on the sheep and they're going to, you know, uh uh uh deceive individuals." And he he understood that sin does this thing that corrupts the people of God. And leaders are only as integrous as their character, not integrous based off of their office. So you could have the perfect structure, but if those individuals in those positions of leadership don't actually follow the biblical prescription of character found in the scriptures, you're going to have a bunch of narcissists ruling the church. And and even if you have a a sincere and genuine and loving pastor and a really gracious congregation, if you have elders that are not qualified, they're going to be harsh. They're going to be heavy-handed. Uh maybe they're going to be extremely uh uh loose on justice and and kind of very lavish with mercy to the extent that they're kind of preferring mercy over judgment in such a way that allows sin to go unpunished and uncorrected and unexposed. So, um I think that all this comes down to is trying to the best of our ability to submit ourselves to God. Uh to try to remain humble, having good and godly and biblical leaderships that are qualified in those positions. Um but uh I don't know that there is a one answer fits all. There's not a silver bullet for uh church leadership. And I do think that there was a time in my life where I believed uh that there was a utopia. if we would just obey all of the biblical commands and if we would just do this thing just perfectly, we could build this perfect structure. I just I don't believe that anymore. I think now um I'm going to try to follow the Bible as best as I can and and try to submit myself to God as best as I can. And in doing that, I've got the best chance I can at at trying to bring the kingdom of God here and destroying the kingdom of darkness, but at the end of the day, we're just going to have people uh and people aren't always submitting themselves to God holy. Um >> okay. Uh I think we've got to uh keep talking not just about leadership structures in general uh but the charismatic space. So I'm going to try to push the conversation a little bit further unless you guys have any objections. Um but I'm going to talk about a culture that appeals to anointing over qualifications. And we've just spoken a little bit about those character qualifications. If you go to Titus 2 1 Timothy 3, you're going to see that the descriptions of an elder are character-based uh with the exception of being able to teach the word of God. And it seems as if uh one of the uh pervasive things that we're seeing in the fall of the charismatic movement is seeing people with a gift in platforming them not because of character, not because of doctrine, the things that we're supposed to appeal to in our leadership positions, but we're platforming individuals basically on anointing alone. Um I I think of guys like Todd White. Uh you know, I had a conversation with a guy. I I I don't know how true this is, but I suspect it might be true. Um, I wonder if Todd hadn't been, you know, newly saved and then kind of thrown into the spotlight and become mega famous overnight. if he was just a faithful member of a local church doing evangelism and praying for the sick, if he wouldn't have tremendous testimonies and grown in character and in doctrine. Um but but because he was thrown into the spotlight as kind of a new believer, frankly, um I I think it it did damage as as Paul tells Timothy not to let an elder be uh lifted up into that position of an elder because he might be puffed up and fall into the snare of the devil. Um, I think what I'm seeing in Todd, um, is really just undeveloped Christian accountability where an individual didn't submit themselves to a local church and get discipled and walk through that process and kind of shave off all of those rough edges. Um, I wonder if that would be the case. I I can't speak to it definitively. I don't know. Um, but I would say one of as as we're walking through our list here to remind people of the things that we've talked about, uh, celebrity culture seems to be a thing that is affecting all of these movements. uh governance as we're talking about governance gaps and now uh kind of talking about anointing kind of taking precedence over qualifications of leaders. Uh what do you guys have to say about anointing and qualifications? Uh round trip to you. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean it's a huge deal. The uh uh the fruit of the spirit way more important than the gifts of the spirit. I mean they're both important. They both come from the spirit. We need them all. Uh but man uh the the whole purpose of the gifts of the spirit is at least within a local church is to express the fruit of the spirit. It's uh the fruit of the the the gifts of the spirit are empowered love and love is one of the fruits of the spirit. So uh when you look at the qualifications of elders that the most Paul says about gifting is that an elder is to be able to teach and the rest is all character. And and you know I've thought a lot about these character traits. I've exed all these words and and I've just thought about them over years and uh and I think a lot of times that when a church is deciding on whatever their process is, but when they're deciding on who an elder should be, I think they're just it it almost seems to come down to like he's a good guy. He's not like beating his wife or cheating on his wife. And you [laughter] know, he seems good and he reads his Bible and he prays. And that's kind of like what it really comes down to. I don't see any ways in which he's egregiously breaking these commands, but what I'm interested in and selecting elders, and I don't personally select elders. Uh, our church nominates them, and then there's kind of a whole vetting process we walk through. It's all spelled out in our bylaws. But, uh, but what I'm really interested in is, uh, courage. So, there's a quote by, uh, CS Lewis. He says um courage is not so much one of the virtues as it is the expression of every virtue at its testing point. So it's one thing to be like yeah he's loving but but does he love under fire? Uh is he courageously loving like even when it hurts even when it will cost him? Is he courageously just? Is he courageously compassionate? Will he courageously tell the truth? I mean everyone will tell the truth when it's convenient but will he tell the truth even when it hurts? and uh and if if I'm involved in a process of kind of interviewing elders and those kind of that's the kind of thing that I'm interested in. Tell me stories about about times where you took a stand and it cost you dearly. Um because that's what you need because elders will be tested and there will be a time when they need to take a stand and if they've just been like I don't know good guys like if that's all there is to their character and they haven't really been tested yet. I mean, it even says of the deacons, they must be tested first. And uh by implication, certainly the elders must be tested. And um and so I want to see what these characteristics look like when you're under fire. uh when you'll look bad to other people for taking a stand because what we see in charismatic culture is that so often the leadership teams from the celebrity pastor down to their yesmen elders uh they they turn inward they circle the wagons they self-protect they don't do the courageous thing whether it be call Shawn Bulls out publicly whether it whether it be address sin publicly which must be done in some scenarios uh what whatever whatever it is, where where have they done that? The other question I'm interested in when it comes to qualifications is is I want to know how the person has suffered. Uh because character is formed in the in the fires of suffering. You see that all throughout the scripture. I could quote a thousand of them. So if these are the characteristics of an elder and they're overseer, they must be above reproach and sober minded and self-control, respectable and all of those things. If they're if they're truly like elder level qualified in these, then surely they've suffered and the fire of God's discipline has formed them into these character sets. So, I want to know how the person has suffered and persevered through that suffering. Uh I I don't want a young buck elder with, you know, who's uh naive and just hasn't really suffered the hard things of life yet. Give them give him a few years. Like you mentioned Todd White, like one of the requirements for an elder, even though he wasn't trying to be an elder, he was being a ministry leader of a, you know, third party organization type of deal, whatever. Um, it same kind of idea is an elder must not be a recent convert. And so, uh, I I want somebody with some some experience, some suffering, and some courage. Uh, because I think all of that is sort of the underlying assumption of these character traits of an elder. and far more important than how anointed they are on a stage. And uh and I think if the charismatic church started prioritizing those kinds of things, it would slowly change the culture. Miller, anointing over character. >> [sighs] >> Uh well I know within the NAR movement you know there's sort of this ideal um when you start when you think of like gifts being offices when they when they translate that uh Ephesians 4 passage to be offices then there there there's this sort of drive to find the evangelist and the apostle and the prophet and the teacher uh so that you can get your five-fold all set up as your leaders in local church. Um, but you don't see anything in Danny Silk's book about how these leaders need to be able to guard against doctrine. Um, like you think about the first few hundred years of church history and the things that were happening is they were they were trying to protect the doctrines of the faith. I mean Paul's letter to uh Timothy in in Ephesus, he was worried about these um Himaeus and Alexander, these sort of false elders that were u preaching these legalistic uh doctrines. and he calls it a doctrine of demons and he hands them over to Satan. Because of these things, there seems to be not just a lack of character or valuing of gifting or anointing over character, but also a lack of um basic biblical criteria when it comes to doctrine. Um here's the thing, you're not going to know what would be considered heresy if you don't actually know the basic doctrines of the faith. You know, people use the word discernment all the time to to talk about, you know, discerning whether or not somebody is is truly qualified. Um, but they often don't define what this what what is meant in scripture by that. And and by that, I keep thinking of like Hebrews 5:14. He says, "Solid food is for the mature man who through practice has trained his senses to discern good and evil." Now he says this in the context of not laying again a foundation uh you know of doctrinal things like uh repentance from dead works uh washings or baptisms you know just core essential foundational doctrines. Um so I I do think that there is a couple of things that get overlooked not just the character issues but the basic understanding of the Christian faith and and Todd White's a great case and point of this. I mean, Josh, when you did interview him, you had to correct him live for Kota Heresy, am I correct in that? >> Yeah, that's right. Um, a couple times we had to stop him and be like, "Uh, I think what you meant was and and we got, you know, uh, >> uh, I think Lambasted >> for spoon feeding him answers." >> And I I think though like in at the moment it was like, "Hey, I think you really actually have a problem like articulating this and I think you need help." So, you know, it was funny. I think we we responded to Justin Peters like, "Are you condemning me or complimenting me for teaching Todd White proper Christologology?" Like, "What's what's going on here?" Um, which I think is a good thing for us to do. Um, >> well, he was he was he was dogging us on the point that this guy shouldn't be a leader because he can't articulate clear doctrine. >> And I actually with him on that. >> Yeah, we actually said many times he shouldn't be a leader. >> Yeah, that's right. Not not in that interview because that would have been awkward, but we have said it quite a [laughter] few times publicly. Um, >> maybe you shouldn't be a leader, Todd. >> Hey, Todd, maybe you should figure this one out. Yeah, that would have been weird. Here's a here's a reason that I think that many in the charismatic church are actually viewing anointing over character qualifications because we're we're willing to look past those things if an impartation from this guy will jumpstart us in our Christian faith. And I think that there's actually a >> Todd Dan. >> Yeah. Like a need for a need for microwave Christianity that if I get this impartation, if I if I sit under this person's teaching, if they bless me with their thing, then I'll be able to do the things that they're doing. So there's this hope that like if I just kind of ignore maybe some of the qualificologally perfect, but like I just need their anointing. Like I need a touch because it'll jump start my Christian faith. Um I actually think that is part of what is destructive to the movement. And a lot of what we've talked about uh has been leaderdriven. I would say though that celebrity culture is something that we as the people are actually feeding into. And I would say that this idea of anointing over qualification is something that we the people are kind of feeding into. Um you know when I when I remember reading uh uh 1 Samuel, I forget the passage, the chapter specifically, but the the passage where uh you know they're like, "Give us a king. Give us a king." And Samuel's like, "You don't want a king. he's gonna enslave you and he's gonna like heavily tax you and he's going to take your children as to be servants in his temple in his in his house and those kinds of things. Uh and they're like, "No, we want it. We want it." And he's like, "Fine, here's here's here's the discipline that you're getting uh as a result of that." And uh I think that when we as charismatics today, we we are vying for celebrity culture. We're vying for impartation. We actually get the leaders that we deserve. We're actually feeding into it. Uh, and I would just encourage Christians like maybe stop uh publishing or maybe stop publishing, maybe stop reading publishers from Destiny Image. Maybe stop um, you know, uh, constantly chasing after uh, the next conference and the next kind of revival thing where I get a touch from God. Man, you can go get good training. There's a great there's great places to get trained and discipled by, you know, godly leaders. But if you're going there u, because you think that there's some kind of like secret sauce that they have, guys, it's just the Bible. like it's it's just what the Bible, the scriptures teach. There may be some uh teachers who, you know, have a grace on their life to teach the word of God. That's great. But this idea that like we're we're going to get a jump start in our Christianity. we're going to have like this this super uh you know uh en encounter that's going to jumpst start our life like we're beginning to elevate individuals to an idolatrous position and kind of gleaning from them and leaning on their power rather than looking to God you know who is going to empower us who's going to strengthen us who's promised to bless us with spiritual gifts so I think that we've fed into this uh to some not not in in any small part I think it's been quite a large responsibility on the individuals as a whole not solely on the leaders, but they certainly feed into it. Um, okay. Any other thoughts on uh kind of anointing and qualifications before we move on to the next one that I'm getting headshakes? No. Um, okay. Information control and image management? Miller, I know you have nothing to say about this. Um, uh, [laughter] do do you want to you want to take any stabs at this one, my friend? >> I feel like we kind of already talked about it, honestly. Well, no, we haven't we haven't quite addressed one of the big elephants in the room, uh, which is the fact that when anybody gets fired from these churches, especially if they've tried to call out the leader, there's always an NDA slid right across the table to get them to be silent and get their severance. This is the tough thing. You're getting fired from a church and you're suddenly left with like, okay, I'm I'm getting canned and now I have to take care of my family. Well, how am I going to do that? You know, I most pastors don't make a lot of money to begin with, especially not in many of these churches. The only person who tends to make a lot of money is the senior guy up at the top. And so in those communities when there's a firing, um, I can't tell you how many people have been threatened with NDAs, which is there is no way around it. It is a form of spiritual abuse. It is a coercive means to um, get somebody to fall in line. They stay silent. I had this happen in a church. um one of the first missionaries we sent out. Uh he was, you know, confronting the the elders about some major problems. He's like, "You guys are going to bankrupt the church if we don't make some changes." And he was confronting the senior pastor about just sort of coasting in the church and not actually, you know, doing disciplehip or evangelism. Um and it blew up and he was on his way to the mission field and so they were like, "Hey, let's we're going to make this exit now." they slid over an NDA and said, "We'll give you $5,000 uh if you sign this as a severance." And you know, he emailed me um and I said, "Absolutely, do not sign it." Uh what I didn't know was that when I replied to his email, uh all of his emails were being forwarded to the senior pastor at that point. So, needless to say, that that got me into some very uh hot water with them and a really difficult argument, but but that's what they did. And then I actually wrote them back and I said, "This is absolutely abusive." Unfortunately, in Colorado, the state law says that you cannot hand somebody an NDA uh to receive severance. It's actually against the law and it's a $5,000 misdemeanor. So, I got them to pay the $5,000 severance and uh without him signing it. But this is ubiquitous. I I know for a fact that at um Jesus Image, they they have NDAs. at uh what's the big one with Daniel Kinda his ministry they have NDAs um and I don't know about some of the other big ministries but I know that this is a major means to silent people silent people and the reason why is because they want to protect their brand if they can control the narrative I mean the other thing that will happen is usually when someone goes from one of these communities if they've get removed after maybe pushing the envelope with the senior guy or challenging them there's usually a narrative that goes out immediately but it's never public it's always private and behind the scenes yeah we didn't we didn't want to shame them uh or cause them any problems on their way out. And so instead, they just do it subtly behind the scenes instead of just casting a big grand narrative. Or they may cast a big grand narrative. And that narrative is often like, oh, uh, you know, God's just kicking them out of the nest. You know, God has called them on to greener pastures and, uh, they're they're transitioning. Um, those kind of things. I I really I'd be very aware of when you hear those words being used. and always go check the other side and talk to the person who's on their way out. >> See if that's >> one of the the major themes that we see in a lot of these movements, a lot of these spaces like IHOP and Bethl and in in Hillsong is uh part of the image controls, not just NDAs, which certainly are sinful. Uh you know, bringing things under sworn secrecy rather than bringing things into the light seems to be an ethic that is completely contrary uh to New Testament scriptures. Uh but one of the things that is often uh espoused uh is either directly or indirectly demonizing discernment ministries. Uh ministries that are like, "Hey, this is what the Bible says and look how this is a bad thing." And respectfully, I can say that there are certainly discernment ministries that are high on the scoffing and mocking scale. And I don't know that that's helpful. I don't know that's fruitful. Uh and I I think that it's actually sinful in in many situations. Uh when we begin to scoff and mock, uh the scriptures seem to be clear that we should not be doing those things. And yet the scripture is also clear uh that we should sternly rebuke those publicly before all so the rest in fear. So so I think that one of the things that happens is that these ministries are kind of blacklisted uh amongst uh their their movement again either directly or indirectly uh by saying things like oh there's a lot of discernment bloggers that are out there and oh man people are just doing podcast for clicks and views. And here's the thing. Uh, all of those people who are saying they're doing podcast for clicks and views, they're saying this on YouTube that is monetized and they're getting clicks and views. They're making money propagating falsehoods or or error. And anyone else who does that that says what they're doing is wrong. They will claim fault for something that they themselves are doing. They're also on YouTube. So, it's odd for a YouTuber to tell another YouTuber, you're doing this for clicks and views. That's an an absurd thing. That's an absurd challenge to place into someone's lap. Um, so I I I would say that if uh ministries as a whole would listen to the voices of people online who are engaging theologically uh with the subject material, uh I think that they would find that oh man, there is really a good reason why we shouldn't have published the physics of heaven, why we shouldn't promote the passion translation, why we shouldn't have had Kenneth Copeland come to our our church. But because um they [snorts] are completely shut off from any external voices and any external sources um they actually find themselves in a more dangerous position. I say this while also realizing I have a public platform and I listen to very few people who have criticism towards us. So I try to uh engage with messages when I can uh but also my focus is on my local church. So, I understand why uh maybe at least leadership would not be the ones who are kind of scouring information, but that information has to at least be getting back to those those pastor. There's got to be an Elijah Stevens out there who's bringing a video from uh you know, the cultish podcast to Bill Drownson. It's got to be happening. So I I would just say in some sense that uh we need to not shut ourselves off to external voices, external sources that disagree with us and kind of black label them or blacklist them as uh you know bitter and angry and divisive in the body of Christ. I don't think any of that's helpful. Miller, you're laughing over there. >> Oh, well, you're just saying you don't listen to other podcasters who don't like us. And I I don't know. That's not entirely true. Uh maybe maybe they want to like us. Uh, but you listened to Kosar and you listened to Rose and Justin Peters when they when they uh had some real heavy criticisms for us and they were right. We had to we had to own it. >> Yeah. >> Well, I I meant I meant more like I don't read every comment. Like I just I can't like I actually I often post and go there's there's a lot of times where I'm not seeing content that is, you know, people are saying, "Hey, you guys are really screwed up in this area." And I I just didn't see it. Um because I'm not I'm not following all of those threads carefully. Um yeah, I've got a family. I've I've got a church I've got to take care of and and content to produce for this show. I I just don't have the time to kind of engage with all the little things. Um Okay, Roundry, you got any thoughts on on this or do you want to move on to uh uh what is it? Platforming incentives when it comes to conferences, when it comes to book deals and those sorts of things. >> Uh man, yeah, I I mean I have a lot of thoughts. I think on silencing NDAs is one way that church is silenced. It's not the only way. Uh, I will say on NDAs, I I wish I could say more, but I do know that Andy Woods Church, Saddleback Church uses NDAs because somebody uh who got fired from Saddleback uh told me, but I'm not allowed to say, I guess, but uh anyway, there you go. Andy Wood, Saddleach Church. That's abusive. And there was a severance and the pastor told me, "I have to care for my family. I don't have a choice." And so uh that's abusive. And uh hopefully some people in Saddleback's world can uh raise the flag there. But uh anyway, but yeah, NDAs are one way uh that they do that. Another thing that they do is they expel the whistleblower. Uh they they kick them out of the church. Uh or they make it so gruelingly difficult for them to remain in the church, they essentially do leave. Uh I see that a lot. You know, my my church, we have a whistleblower policy uh in place. So like this, we follow these protocols and it pulls in people besides just the elders because it could very well be and probably would be if it ever ever an issue arose. It's going to be a whistleblower. They're blowing the whistle on people in power and so you have to pull in some other people. Uh it's important to have a whistleblower policy and uh and so that's another way that they do that. When there's a whistleblower, they just get silenced. Uh and it's not always just an NDA. Sometimes it's by ostracism and uh sometimes it's by formal discipline. uh and and so they discipline the person who's calling them out for sin. And then uh uh which brings me to another point which is weaponizing of Matthew 18. A lot of ways that that's done. Um one way that that's done, you know, I interacted with a so-called prophetic person uh recently whose prophetic words we reviewed and he corrected me via email and said that uh that we should only we shouldn't evaluate public words without talking to him first. And wouldn't it be better biblical protocol to have a private conversation? And there are so many things wrong with that. Um, first of all, Matthew 18 is for private offenses. I don't even know this person. Uh, that person shared their prophetic word with hundreds of thousands if not millions of people. Uh, so suddenly all those people if they have an issue with the word have to go talk to him. No. the way we see prophecy weighed in scripture, 1 Corinthians 14, it's shared publicly and it's weighed publicly and uh and so it's a it's taking something that's for personal offense and applying it to a public setting. No, public teaching, public prophecy can be publicly evaluated. Otherwise, the gatekeepers have all the power. They can just release these prophetic words over millions of people that are drastically affecting their lives and have no accountability because that person has to somehow find their email, process process it with them in advance and uh and then evaluate the prophetic word. It's just not it's not practical. It's not biblical. But anyway, all of those are ways that people empower silence. And I think that's relevant for the charismatic church because the charismatic church has told itself that uh that none of my teaching can be corrected. None of my prophecy can be corrected. You have to privately come to me. That's completely unreasonable. There's no way that a celebrity pastor or a celebrity prophet can be privately confronted by the millions of people that they're teaching and prophesying over. No, we actually need this kind of public evaluation for accountability which the scripture commands. So, uh those are a few thoughts. Josh trying to keep pace. >> Sorry you got that email uh Michael when he wasn't making any progress with me. He turned to you. Um so [laughter] we'll see if we get another email. >> Good. I mean he was nice about it. >> He was nice. Yeah, it was totally nice. >> There's a a comment in the comment section by Victoria that I really appreciated. She said, "Ostracizing is abuse, too." And she put in quotation mark, "Forgive and move on culture." Um yes, >> that right there that's that hits a personal button for me. I would hear that all the time. You just need to forgive and move on, right? You just need to forgive and move on. As though the pursuit of justice is somehow wrong to do. And it is a tactic. Um not just from those who did the harm, but from those who mean well, but end up acting like Job's friends. Um I I think that is also a way that silencing happens. So, uh great point there, Victoria. Okay, I'll keep pushing us into the next piece of content. Uh, this will be our last one. We'll kind of uh land the plane here. Platforming incentives, when the show must go on. Uh, this is one of the things that you'll hear uh from, man, lots of people. Uh, when we had information about Chris Reed, uh, Mike Bickl took me into a room. I happened to go up to the IHOP to go and pray, and Bickle pulled me aside and said, "Hey, man. I heard that you're investigating stuff with Chris." and and we never go public with stuff like that. And I was like, well, we have to go public, especially if people aren't repentant. And and he began to try to convince me not to talk about this thing because of how much it would affect the movement. Um, and this is language that is often being used to uh protect individuals. We we've got to we've got to worry about the the movement. We can't expose. We can't confront. That kind of language of well, the show must go on. Uh pe people are going to walk away from our platform. They're going to walk away. They're going to think that this is all fake and this is not real. Well, I'll tell you what will really cause people to think it's fake and not real. It's decades of cover up and decades of lying and decades of sexual immorality and decades of fabricating prophetic history and decades of those sorts of things and they've been lied to for so long, then they have a real hard time trying to figure out what's true. However, if the charismatic movement had and is currently exposing the deeds of darkness while believing in prophecy, while practicing healing, while practicing tongues and interpretation in a biblical and godly way. You know what the the the church does? They go, "Wow, these people with a backbone, these people who are bringing light into darkness, uh these people have the goods." Uh and I think that there is a responsibility for the church not just to uh gain followers who see the miraculous but but gain uh man uh faithful disciples who see virtue in integrous things. It's not just about the supernatural power. It's about transformed hearts and lives. So I I do think one of the kind of platforming uh you know incentives of uh the charismatic movement has been don't talk about these things, it'll affect the movement. And I think that it's actually harmed the movement. I think it's had the exact opposite effect. I think that we need to be out in the front talking about these sorts of things. I also think that when you know individuals uh kind of come against, you know, imagine your uh Bethl Church of Cleveland, okay? And Bethl Church of Cleveland has Todd White coming to their conference and maybe they've heard about the uh false miracles and the the heavy-handed leadership and uh you know the lies that have followed him around or the fact that every time he's being confronted about his love for money, he tries to kick out his entire board. Like you have these sorts of stories and you're Bethl Cleveland. Well, if Todd comes to your church, you're going to have a packed out service. Lots of people are going to come to hear him. You're going to have a really powerful Are you going to be the one holding Todd accountable? are you going to expose this guy and and prevent a fall? People are going to be upset with you if you expose Todd White. That'll be bad. So, there's an incentive monetarily uh when it comes to a lack of exposure in some of these ministries. So, I often times they're like, "Oh, you know, Mike Winger, he's doing another exposure video. He's doing this for money." Well, his stuff is demonetized. I would actually put the coin uh the coin, you know, I would actually accuse you [laughter] of actually doing that. you're the one who is continuing to promote these individuals and it is prospering your pocketbook. Uh so I actually don't think it's a Mike Winger who is doing exposure content for the sake of money. I actually think it's these churches who realize man if I if I don't have that guy if that guy can't come to my church it's going to affect my bottom dollar. Uh because we're friends he's going to invite me to his conference and his thing that's going to affect my bottom dollar. I think there are financial incentives to covering this sort of thing up. So, uh, you know, I want to be redemptive in all my language here. I I think that if we as a body of Christ, again, walking through these these this list here, can avoid celebrity culture, we can push back against celebrity culture, we can try to have some kind of biblical accountability when it comes to our ecclesiology and make sure that they're not those kind of leadership gaps in our ministry. If we are not confusing anointing with qualifications for leadership and if we try not to control image management and we're cognizant of the the rewards of these kinds of platform networks, I think it'll prevent us from repeating the past over and over and over again, which is something that I'm seeing a whole heck of a lot of. This stuff with IHOP happened decades ago. What what's the the irony of it all is that the two guys that I'm talking to like their their mentor was there for that confronting that stuff when it happened decades ago with Bob Jones and Paul Kaine and now history has repeated itself. Why? Because we haven't done this. We haven't fought back against these unbiblical practices. We have to learn this lesson if we're going to survive uh if the if these local churches are going to flourish in all that God has for them. We've got to learn from these mistakes. Okay. Any kind of closing thoughts from >> the nail on the head. >> Yeah, I got one more on this one. Um, >> I find so often you you mentioned how people want to protect the movement. They want to protect the image of the prophetic or the image of, you know, IHOP's prayer ministry and this end time harvest revival that's supposed to happen because if you expose it, it's going to end the revival. Or, you know, it's people coming against the move of God in Israel. Like, there's all this kind of propaganda that was launched out there as an excuse to not expose the sin. Um, and it's going to bring disrepute on the church if you expose the sin. That one I hear quite a bit. Like they're worried about the unbelieving community out there looking at the scandals in the church because of those who expose it. Let me make something really clear. It's not the exposure of sin that brings disrepute on the church. It's the sin that brings disrepute on the church. And do you know what doubles that reproach on the church? When you have sin and then you refuse to call it out, then you've brought a double disrepute on the church, it's not the exposure of sin. Like I I think my mom, you know, she's not a believer and she every once in a while she'll she'll hop in for a podcast or she sees some of the vitriolic, you know, post I put on. Uh I say vitriolic, it's more like uh what's the word? Provocative. I'll say very provocative things on my social media and even in in this podcast. and she doesn't like it, but on some level she really does like that I do it and she's proud of me because she sees that her son has a backbone and I'm willing to stand up to abusers. Like for her, she goes, "Oh, okay. So, Christians really do want good. They really do stand against abuse." Um, it's not necessarily This is my unbelieving mom who's gaining respect for somebody who follows Christ, not uh hating the church or hating Christianity. Um, although she would feel that way if it was all covered over and this is actually what her experience was by the Mormon church where my dad uh my dad was a part of um she saw them cover over his sins his failure to pay child support things like that she saw them cover it up and that led her out of and she swore off Christianity as a whole thinking Mormonism was that and so I I'm actually seeing just the opposite I think there are a lot of unbelievers out there that look at exposure and go hey man those guys follow Christ and they're all about removing abuse. That's actually a good thing. Um, so I I would I would hotly push against that narrative that you're going to bring disrepute on the church by exposing sin. >> Amen. Amen. Uh, yeah. I'm just thinking about I guess we're kind of to closing thoughts. I'm thinking about Titus 1:9. It's qualifications of elders. Kind of like the tail end of that section. And it says uh that an elder must hold firmly to the trustworthy word is taught so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it. And I think we've built such a uh a culture of shiny happy people, of everything is awesome, of triumphalism and focus on the positive. And it's this new age positive confession that is uh penetrated the the charismatic movement and everything's got to be great, great, great and wonderful, wonderful, and you got to tell all the people how things going so great with the church and we've had these number of baptisms and the church has grown and we're getting a new facility and all. We just want to keep everything happy and good. But you know, a shepherd, they they watch sheep and they also uh they go after wolves, too. You you teach sound doctrine, but you also re rebuke those who oppose it. And so, this is just the job. Like, if you're called as a shepherd, this is just what you do. You you go you guard the sheep and you go after the wolves. You guard sound doctrine and you rebuke false doctrine. And and it's a hard job. You know, Paul said he did he rebuked with tears. We don't want to do this with giddy joy. This isn't like uh I I think exposure ministry has this sort of and it can go this way sometimes on social media. Social media can be a dumpster fire. But but at its best like Mike Winger, this is not just tabloid ministry. This is not just the national inquirer of Christians. Again, yes, I do think it in some circles it sometimes goes there, but actually righteousness requires exposure uh of sin, righteousness requires that we're not just uh focusing on the good but not the bad. We when Jesus evaluates the churches in Revelation 2 and 3, in most cases, he says, "Here's what's good and here's what's bad." He calls balls and strikes. That's what we're trying to do at remnant. There are a few times where we've had to say uh on ourselves, "Yeah, that was a strike. I miss that. And and you know for people who we proclaim the gospel and the gospel is basically I suck at being righteous but God is good and merciful and and like if you take that if that's the essentially like kind of the nutshell version uh crudely spoken of the gospel and then in our public ministry it's all oh but I'm awesome and I'm great and I'm so good. It it's like there's this disconnect. If we really want to be gospel centered, there needs to be a willingness to actually confess that we're wrong when we're wrong. And so it it's really kind of two sides of this. Like out there, yes, we want to rebuke and we want to teach. Both of those are part of it. But then even when with ourselves, we need to be able to be rebuked. And the charismatic movement has been beyond correction for so long that now it's become an explosion. Like if we just can steadily correct and steadily receive critique, then we can grow from it. And I also just want to say to my discernment ministry brothers and sisters, uh some of you guys have got a bad rap and a lot of you guys are doing some real good for the body of Christ. I want to appeal to you guys that we can receive it better if if you don't call out like every single like if it's not 100% negative and 0% positive. Like if you can say, "Hey, here are some good things that I see." Like if there's some more balance, it's easier for us to receive. At the same time, we have to own that. You guys saw this before we did. I'll say that as remnant radio and uh you guys saw it before most people in the charismatic movement did. So, I do think you're doing good stuff. And man, I just want us to all uplift each other. And I think speaking from the inside of the movement, we're all uh charismatics in the sense that we believe in all the gifts of the Holy Spirit. uh you can't convince me otherwise. But uh but with that said, I I think that discernment ministry could have a further reach into the movements that they're trying to critique. If if it came across more like calling balls and strikes instead of everything's a strike. Uh so a small appeal. Now that's a general appeal uh to discernment ministries. But my bigger thing is just thank you. And I think you guys have seen some things more clearly than we have in the past. And so, uh, anyway, so those are just a few thoughts kind of all over the place for me. >> Those good thoughts. I like those reflections. I appreciate it. >> Yeah, they're good. Guys, thank you so much for tuning in to this episode. Uh, I know it's a long one, but thank you for staying tuned with us. Uh, if you made it to the end, you get a gold star. Maybe you'll get some apostolic blessing from Michael Miller, [laughter] the the foot apostle. And uh, I'm just kidding. That's a joke. It's a joke. >> We need some uh basement boy t-shirts to give out. get the old back to the basement. >> We're really not trying to make celebrity culture a thing. But hey, we'll make a t-shirt with Miller's nickname on it and give it to you. Uh guys, thank you so much for tuning in to this [laughter] episode of Remnant Radio, uh where we want to take theology seriously, but we don't want to take ourselves that seriously. Uh [snorts] for those of you who are watching, you want to stay up to date on all the things Remnant Radio website, uh there on the website homepage. Uh you can subscribe to the newsletter and you get connected with all the various things we're doing here on the channel. Thank you so much for tuning in. We'll see you guys next time., The Fall of the Charismatic Movement, The Remnant Radio, 01khh7h8zb0dc7nektxrhzken4.