The Standup - Jira Bought 2 Browsers???  ## Metadata - Author: [[ThePrimeTime]] - Full Title: The Standup - Jira Bought 2 Browsers??? - Category: #articles - Document Note: --- tags: [#atlassian, #jira, #arc, #browser, #ai, #enterprise, #confluence, #bitbucket, #git, #security, #performance, #devtools, #wordcamp, #webdev] - #atlassian - #jira - #arc - #browser - #ai - #enterprise - #confluence - #bitbucket - #git - #security - #performance - #devtools - #wordcamp - #webdev Author: The Standup Podcast (hosts: Casey, TJ, Trash, Josh) Source: YouTube (podcast episode) Reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9gsMFozXK0 date created: {{date:YYYY-MM-DD}} {{time:HH:mm}} --- # 🔖 Title: Jira Bought 2 Browsers?! — The Standup’s Take on Atlassian, Arc/DIA, AI Coding, and Enterprise Software ## 🧭 Table of Contents: - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [♿ Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-diversity-equity-inclusion-and-belonging-assessment) - [🧮 Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) --- ## 📝 Summary: A lively, comedic roundtable dissects Atlassian/Jira’s reported acquisition of **The Browser Company (Arc/DIA)**, questions the strategic value of a “work-first” browser, and riffs on enterprise software’s perverse incentives. The hosts also wade into **AI-generated code** (e.g., “40–50% at Coinbase”), debating productivity vs. **security**, **performance**, and **energy** costs. Core themes: enterprise buying power vs. end-user experience; browser UX trends (side tabs, tab grouping) vs. web architecture limits; and whether AI should **reduce** code (entropy) rather than inflate it. --- ## 📖 Main Content: - **Atlassian’s move into browsers**: Hosts react to the “work vs. browse” positioning and the **$610M all-cash** offer, speculating on motives, brand clash (hip Arc aesthetics vs. Jira’s enterprise image), and whether **DIA**’s AI-heavy UX alienated users ([7:36–13:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9gsMFozXK0&t=456), [13:37–15:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9gsMFozXK0&t=817)). - **Enterprise software realism**: Why tools like Jira/Confluence/Trello succeed despite user hate: **managers buy**, workers suffer; compliance/budget win over UX. Attempting to please everyone yields bloated, slow tools ([17:23–18:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9gsMFozXK0&t=1043), [18:59–20:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9gsMFozXK0&t=1139)). - **Browser UX vs. the web**: Side tabs, grouping, and slick UI (Arc/Zen) are nice, but **web architecture bottlenecks** (network round trips, bloat) limit systemic gains; switching browsers rarely solves core perf issues ([22:18–24:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9gsMFozXK0&t=1338), [23:54–24:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9gsMFozXK0&t=1434)). - **AI in coding**: Split between useful automation for **mechanical refactors**, tests, and multi-file edits vs. the danger of **entropy inflation**, security regressions, token-burn economics, and specialized **AI infra** that may lock in power-hungry architectures ([28:31–31:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9gsMFozXK0&t=1711), [33:10–37:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9gsMFozXK0&t=1990), [45:33–52:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9gsMFozXK0&t=2733)). ### 🗒️ Notes **Opening & setup** - Banter + episode framing: **Atlassian bought a browser** → correction: “they bought **two** browsers” via one company ([0:10–1:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9gsMFozXK0&t=10), [1:48–2:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9gsMFozXK0&t=108)). - Quick history detour: **BitKeeper → Git** after license breach; conflation with Atlassian cleared up ([2:10–2:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9gsMFozXK0&t=130), [2:46–3:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9gsMFozXK0&t=166)). **Atlassian landscape (Confluence, Bitbucket/Stash, Trello)** - Confluence search snark; autocomplete ironically “the best part” ([3:31–5:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9gsMFozXK0&t=211)). - **Bitbucket/Stash** positioned as **self-hosted GitHub** for enterprises ([5:55–6:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9gsMFozXK0&t=355), [6:58–7:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9gsMFozXK0&t=418)). - Trello characterized as **“Jira with crayons”**; post-acquisition perception ([19:52–20:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9gsMFozXK0&t=1192)). **The acquisition itself** - CEO framing: “some use browsers to **browse**, others to **work**”; **$610M all-cash**; product mix = beloved browser (Arc) + AI-heavy **DIA** that needed rollbacks ([7:58–13:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9gsMFozXK0&t=478)). - **Brand clash**: Arc’s hip/indie identity vs. Atlassian’s enterprise image; “local coffee shop → Starbucks” analogy ([20:59–22:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9gsMFozXK0&t=1259)). **Browser UX & switching** - **Side tabs** fandom; Zen tried; most people eventually revert; **browser switching** seldom fixes **architecture** problems ([10:09–11:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9gsMFozXK0&t=609), [22:18–24:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9gsMFozXK0&t=1338)). **Enterprise software incentives** - Why “bad” wins: **top-down purchasing**; compliance/budget over UX; tools bloat to satisfy layers of management; everyone else suffers ([17:23–18:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9gsMFozXK0&t=1043), [18:59–21:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9gsMFozXK0&t=1139)). **AI-generated code** - “Too much AI?”; claim that **40%** (aiming 50%) of code at Coinbase is AI-generated; concerns on **security** and **quality** ([28:53–31:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9gsMFozXK0&t=1733)). - Good uses: **repeat edits across many files**, refactors based on one exemplar, **test scaffolding**; reality: frequent manual correction needed ([33:10–35:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9gsMFozXK0&t=1990)). - Desired direction: AI should **delete code** and **reduce entropy**, not inflate LOC; measure by **features per LOC** and **perf** ([36:15–37:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9gsMFozXK0&t=2175)). **Training, incentives, infra** - Risk of models learning **bad habits** from public diffs; boutique “**program like X**” models; token-burn incentives; “bigger context” ≠ better results ([42:29–45:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9gsMFozXK0&t=2549), [50:19–51:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9gsMFozXK0&t=3019)). - **Energy & specialization**: AI data centers = **low-precision matmul** machines; power-hungry, **liquid-cooled**, less flexible than GP compute; sustainability concerns ([47:07–52:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9gsMFozXK0&t=2827)). --- ## 📚 References: - Episode: *The Standup — “Jira Bought 2 Browsers???”* (YouTube): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9gsMFozXK0 - Contextual concepts referenced in-episode: BitKeeper/Git origin story; Arc/DIA; Atlassian products (Jira, Confluence, Bitbucket/Stash, Trello). --- ## 🗣️ Paraphrase: 1) **Why enterprise software is “bad but bought”** ([17:23–18:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9gsMFozXK0&t=1043)) *Original idea*: Managers, not users, make buying decisions, optimizing for budget/compliance—not daily UX—so people who must use the software dislike it. *Paraphrase*: Purchasing power sits above the keyboard; when compliance and cost dominate, the UX of those who click the buttons all day becomes a rounding error—thus “successful” enterprise apps can be miserable to use. 2) **AI should shrink code, not bloat it** ([36:15–37:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9gsMFozXK0&t=2175)) *Original idea*: Measure AI by code **reduction** and maintained functionality, not lines generated. *Paraphrase*: The killer AI feature isn’t adding 30k lines—it’s cutting 27k and leaving the app faster, safer, and simpler. --- ## 📰 Newsletter: **Jira, Arc & the “Work Browser” Bet + AI Code Reality Check** Atlassian reportedly snapped up The Browser Company (Arc/DIA) in a **$61 - Summary: Thank You! https://blacksmith.sh our #sponsor today! Speed up your GitHub Actions AND pay less! https://twitter.com/terminaldotshop - Want to order coffee over SSH? ssh terminal.shop 📍 Chapters: 00:00:00 - Intro 00:04:06 - Blacksmith #ad 00:04:44 - Who is Atlassian? 00:15:34 - How Enterprise Software really works 00:22:30 - Switching Browsers 00:24:15 - Terminal Coffee #ad 00:28:55 - Did AI make us lazy 00:42:15 - AI Data centers and their impacts Become Backend Dev: https://boot.dev/prime (plus i make courses for them) This is also the best way to support me is to support yourself becoming a better backend engineer. Great News? Want me to research and create video????: https://www.reddit.com/r/ThePrimeagen Kinesis Advantage 360: https://bit.ly/Prime-Kinesis - URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9gsMFozXK0 All right. Are you guys ready for this? >> Oh, so ready. I am so ready, dude. >> I'm so ready right now. >> Okay. >> You don't even know how much podcast I'm ready for. [Music] >> Uh, anyways, I started >> go. Welcome to the standup live every Wednesday and Friday at 11:00 a.m. the Lord's time, 10 or 10:00 a.m. Pacific Standard Time if you're in the valley. >> 13 a.m. Crazy time. >> Yes. Jose Valim did go or Jose Valim did go. Can we meet at 13:00 a.m.? And I was like, I got this. I know. I know what you're talking about. All right, back on topic. Today we are doing Jira bought a browser unironically yesterday. Jira there. I'm going to technically and actually you right now. They bought two browsers. >> Oh, true. >> Mhm. They did. They bought one company two browsers. They >> suck. >> Yeah. Tell them trash. Tell them. >> Okay. So, this is more Okay, so the reason why I want to bring this up isn't because I think this topic is the single most interesting topic. I just want to see Casey get confused. Like, that's actually my primary reason for bringing this this one up to the standup. >> Oh, he's All right. So yesterday, Atlassian a Casey, are you familiar with Atlasian and some of the wonderful tools they have created? No, I do I have heard of them vaguely. I am like vaguely aware, right? I know they do some like gitl like thing. Uh trash I think before had said it was bit bucket which if I remember correctly was like a pre like that was before git. That's what they used before they stiffed Linus on it, right? That was like Bit Bit Enforcer or Bit Warden or Bit something. >> Bit Bit Bucket. It's one of those man. >> No, no, no. At Lazian owns Bitbucket that became Stash. >> Oh yeah, we use that. That thing >> What was the there? So originally way way back when before all y'alls was born the kernel team for like so so Lionus like started using this >> the tech tips guy. >> No. Yes. the Lionus TechTips, the guy who wrote the Linux operating system. >> I'm not going to lie, I used to mix those two up all the time. >> Biter Casey, it's BitKeeper. >> Bit and it wasn't it wasn't Lionus that did that. It's somebody on Linux team broke the uh terms of service with Bitkeeper and reverse engineered their protocol and they said they wouldn't and that's what caused them to have to switch cuz then they're getting dropped. I just meant the then that's what made Linus write git, right? Is they were like, "All right, I guess we're we got to do our own thing now." That was the only thing I remember. Okay, so that was Bitkeeper. So that means I literally have no idea what this company does. I knew I I I knew they did some kind of like gitl like thing. I have no idea. Never touched it. >> There's going to be a feature. >> Go for it. No, TJ has >> Dang it. Dang it, trash. It was so good. Trash. >> Josh, run it back for me. >> I never said anything. >> Use AI to make this work. Josh, >> there's going to be a confluence of features like you've never seen before. Something like that. I don't remember what I was going to say cuz I got too mad. >> Hey. Hey Casey. >> Yeah. >> You're going to have a confluence of >> Trello >> technique. Trello. Oh yes. Okay. Okay, so Katie, they make Confluence, which is like the world's worst wiki. >> So if you're not familiar with like wikis, somehow Confluence, Confluence is the only known like product that you cannot search with that is meant to be for searching for documents for teams to use except in the search bar autocomplete. Search bar autocomplete. Anybody, please type one in chat. Say it in the YouTube comments right now. The autocomplete is the best search of all time. And then everything else about Confluence you cannot use at all. It's just the it's just absolutely garbage. It is crazy. Whether you're a vibe coder or a handcrafted freerange neoim user, you still need CI to be able to build your binaries, run your tests, or make your releases. That's where Blacksmith comes in. It takes your GitHub actions and with a oneline change makes them faster and more cost-effective. Not only that, but you can finally get visibility into your CI pipeline right when things go wrong. We're happy to have them as our sponsor for this episode because just like us, this one is truly a no-brainer. Sign up and enjoy faster GitHub action workflows at a much lower price. Blacksmith, twice the speed and up to 75% reduction in cost. Check them out at blacksmith.sh. Now, back to the standup. >> Everything's going >> I heard um I heard after Elon bought X, the entire search team went over to Confluence. That's what I that's what I heard. >> Confluence search is worse than is worse than Twitter. Like objectively worse. >> It's actually worse. It It's It's objectively worse. >> You didn't think it was possible, but it's worse. >> They They've managed to figure out how to make something that shows none of the words you type in. >> Casey, you know you know everything you love about corporate enterprise culture and software. >> So, it turns out you know how like Fredo Lei owns every snack you find in the grocery store. Like even if there's seven different ones, Atlassian is the Fredo Lei of Enterprise Software. You're like, "Oh my goodness, I can't believe that they're taking 17 minutes to load up this custom page with 37 different tags for every single ticket that they have with story points and t-shirt sizes and everybody has 13 ways to interact with the ticket." That thing is also made by the same people that can't figure out how to search text in your wiki. Same people. >> Makes sense, dude. And they also do Stash, which Stash is actually the objectively worse version of GitHub, which I know that is shocking to say >> for hey for now. For now. >> So since they had nothing to do with BitKeeper, which is the only thing I actually vaguely knew because we looked at it briefly at RAD at the time way back when before Git existed. >> So Bitbucket, which I guess is now Stash, is what exactly? Are they literally just running Git with a front end on top of it or what is it? >> GitHub just imagine GitHub for corporations private hosted GitHub for corporations. >> Isn't GitHub also for corporations? >> This was before and plus you get to own it. So it's not like >> like it's it's like self-hosted. That's the one of the big differences that you can self ho you can commercially self-host your version of it. So that way you own everything whereas GitHub's like we own everything. You get to say you have you get your own little slice on our stuff, >> right? We won't show it to anyone else except us. >> Yeah, except for Copilot. Copilot will love your stuff. >> Yeah, dude. >> And anyone at our company who wants to look at it. >> You can self post GitHub. Okay. Well, this was at one point you couldn't. That's you know this thing. But >> what were you saying? Trash. >> All right. We're getting kind of distracted. >> Well, Teach brought up Fred, so I Google what Fritolay owns. They make all my favorite chips. Amazing. >> Which are >> sun chips, Doritos, sour cream, and onion ruffles. Someone clip this >> food. White cheddar popcorn. >> Yeah, that's a good one. >> Cheetos. Tortilla. Tostitos. Salsa. >> Were you about me about me about me about me about me about me about me about me about me about me to say tortillas? >> Be honest. It sounded like you were halfway to tortilla. >> Some tortillas. >> Look, if it's if it's a flu, it's a tortilla. >> They're spelled the same way. >> A chicken vagina on a tortilla, please. >> Delicious. >> Okay. So, so that is what Atlasian is. They've always built developer productivity, very heavy air quotes on the word productivity tools, >> but it's always been enterprise focused productivity. >> And yesterday, the CEO drops a twominute video >> on why they acquired >> a browser. >> Okay? >> And I'm going to give you the best quote I personally think of the video. >> Okay? which is >> I already know >> some people use browsers to browse >> whereas other people use browsers to work. >> Okay. And that's why we spent $610 million in an allcash offer to acquire this company with one product that people loved but they abandoned and a new AI one that all I can find is people who hate >> and hold but so at first I thought holy cow they spent a lot of money cash cash onhand money to be able to buy this but then I realized windurf which is a tertiary clone of of VS Code sold for like three plus billion >> except it didn't, right? Wasn't it more like they just took the people and literally left windf Google did that but then Devon bought the rest. So Google got the Google got one part of it and Devon got the other part. Google took the two very confusing. So here's what I would would like to know if if I may ask in this particular case based on everything you said about this company who cannot implement text search properly. I'm guessing they did not actually write a browser. >> So is this just like we reskinned you know web? >> We got to back up Casey. We got to back up. Sorry. We Atlassian is the parent company that purchased the browser company. So the browser company Browser New York. >> Browser company of New York. True. Which >> not to be confused with the browser company of somewhere else. >> Can I say >> I I do want to say that's a pretty sick name. >> Yeah. >> I actually think of all the things that they made, their name is the coolest. >> Okay. >> So, I could do browser company of California. And >> you could trash unless it's taken. That's kind of Google's thing. But maybe you could maybe >> I'm thinking >> you could be you could be the other browser company. Uh but but can you just >> it's a chromium fork. So they made a chromium fork first in this is this is they made arc. Arc was this browser that was like a chromium fork but they did a lot more stuff than like normal for these chromium forks. They wrote like their own whole like UI kit thing and all this other so that you could do a bunch of stuff that was not possible to do before in a Chromium fork. They like move tabs around and let you do like tab groups. And they took like everybody's favorite extensions and built it like faster and better in like a native way that was supposed to work better for everybody. And people were like, "Wow, this browser is sick. I love tabs on the side. I'm going to have make that my whole personality is that I have tabs on the side of my browser instead on the top. I'm so much cooler and better than you." >> It is better. It is. It is objectively better to have tabs. >> Thank you for proving my point. And so then after they had that for a while, they were not getting a lot of market share. Believe it or not, not a lot of normies thought, hm, >> tabs on the side is worth me figuring out what the heck browsers are. >> Uh, so then they're like, you know what we need to do, Casey? Can you guess what they needed to do after they didn't get market share? >> Yeah, I mean, they they did, like you said, they did AI. I'm sure that Yeah, I mean that's obvious, right? AI pivot is like that, you know, just where I there's literally just a thing where it it's like um it's like someone is dropping money out of out of the top of a building and there's all these like dudes with buckets running like >> I need I need to cash in on something like it's coming down on the AI side and they're all running over there hoping to catch some of it before they stop dumping the money out of the top. >> I need to I need to catch some for real. >> For real. Hey, and are you tasting like a wave of nacho flavor over there or anything that you want? >> Dude, like I just finished my bowl of cereal and I was like, I'm still hungry. So, >> does anyone have a connection at Fredo in the audience? Please, if you're a YouTube viewer later or you're in Twitch chat right now, >> we at least half of the people in this call would shill Fredo Lelay like none other on this podcast. Just throwing it out there. >> For real. >> Okay, so >> back to topic. Yep. Sorry. Literally, somebody just spent $610 million to buy a browser that because they put the tabs on the side. >> So, well, here's the deal is they they built that browser. So, that was called Arc, but then of course, as TJ said, no one used it. So, then they actually built a second one called DIA. >> Awful. >> And DIA is supposed to be all Yeah. after D's nuts. That's what it was named for. And apparently it was so heavily AI and different that they actually had to roll back some of it and kind of go a bit more traditional than they were originally going for on it because people just couldn't understand it at all. >> And as saw this browser and they said we'll give you 610 and you know what we need AI browser and that was the whole of the two-minute meeting. >> Oh wait, Bri, stop. Trash said he has a joke. >> I got a joke. >> Play it trash. They had no idea what they were doing. >> I don't even get it. I I'm actually missing the joke. >> I have no idea what the joke is at all, but I don't know what the software is either. So, >> yeah, the the browser is called DIA. So, I said they have no idea what they're doing. >> Oh, man. Okay. >> Are you kidding me? Right. Did you just did that just fly over everyone's head except for me? >> Dude, I couldn't help it cuz I was thinking of idea as an intelligent. I was like, Trash, it's a very different set of productivity trolls. >> No, chat got it. Trash. Chat is >> got it. They were spam. They get it, >> man. >> At least someone got me. >> Dude, I'm getting that into a short just for me and you. I don't care if no one else watches that. >> What? Or I guess I should say trash. Are you sure they didn't have a idea what they were doing? >> Oh man. >> Yeah, they definitely had a couple idea. I can't I don't even know. I'm gone. >> Finish the sentence. You got to think of something. Don't Don't leave it hanging. Figure it out, >> dude. A idea. That's pretty good. >> Uh, okay. Look, I just Here's here's my first question among many. >> Yes. My first question is what does it say about your company that the people you're buying are like we're going to need an allcash offer for that? They're like we don't want stock in whatever this thing is that you've got here because it looks dire. Like what does that say that it was an allcash offer? >> My guess is so actually I I I just assume that literally the browser company is just cash in the bank. Like that's what it says to me when you get an allcash offer is that you are just taking the money. >> You have probably some contractual period that some amount of people have to work for for a heightened salary for some amount of time and the other people are just going to be like and then do the disappearing thing >> 100%. >> But still I kind of figured they had a bunch of investors they needed to pay back. >> Okay. >> Uh from from before. I have no idea. This is just pure >> if investors were like oh we can get a nice chunk of Atlassian now. they would have been like, "Cool." But here they're like, "Nope, we do not want that." Like, "Don't don't be doing that." >> To be fair, Atlassian is the only company I know of that has built a product that is universally re like hated and they're a billion dollar company. Like, people hate Jira. >> Yeah, trash. >> They are a billion dollar company. >> I am so impressed that a company can make so many things that are so bad, but be like number one, everything. Like, it just it's like Microsoft again. Dude, we're talking about last time. >> Yeah. Yeah. But dude, like it's it's kind of crazy like when you just talk to the whole user base and they're just collectively against this company. >> Yeah. But you know enterprise. That's what enterprise is about. So the way enterprise software >> managers love it. >> The way enterprise software works is you make absolute dog poop. So think Salesforce or something, right? And then you have like a giant apparatus that goes out to somebody's company and convinces upper level management that it's really useful and then they buy it and then all of your employees hate it. That's that's enterprise software. That is what it is, right? The people who are using it don't actually get a a say in the decision, which is why it's so terrible. >> Yeah. My buddy who works at like a food distribution place used to work in sales. They had their own thing and then they moved to SAP. He literally was like, I have to get out of here cuz all I do now is answer customer calls of where did our huge pallets of food go cuz they can't find them anymore. They like lo they had lost so much stuff cuz they switched their inventory system because big companies use SAP. We're a big company now. >> And then it's awful. And this is the same with like all the like, you know, the HR software and the health insurance management and all that stuff. It's just all like complete garbage. But that's because that is not how it works. Like the people who actually use it have like no say, right? It's somebody who's like looking at like budgetary numbers and compliance issues and legal and all that stuff and they're just signing off on it and then everyone gets to suffer. That's like what it is. So, it's not surprising because enterprise software just isn't about delivering quality software and never was as far as I can tell. >> So, to be fair, I feel like if I were to try to build Jira feature for feature, I might end in a very similar place. >> Oh, it's the same it's the same result for sure. >> Yeah. Right. Like if if I really had to build something that made every manager happy, but it but tried to make every employee also happy, I think I'd end up in the exact same spot where every employee hates it. Half the managers like it and I'm just like, well, I tried. >> Well, I made a billion. I made a billion dollars. Whatever. >> It's it's trying to solve the like Jira in particular is trying to solve the problem of when our project's going to be finished. >> Right. >> Well, can't you just return just return rand mod? >> That would be a more effective strategy. >> Yeah. Return mod two years or something and whatever comes back. It's like that. There you go. This is her new AI prediction model. A bunch of if statements. >> So what do we think this browser is going to look like? So I think like in the advertisement they say it's for like the worker, right? So we have a >> Yeah, knowledge work. We have a tab >> of one billion of them too. Trash. There's one billion knowledge workers worldwide. >> Yeah. I don't even know where that number came from, but sure. I mean I saw I saw it. I don't know how we derived that. But >> how many knowledge twerkers are there exactly? That's >> exactly one. The remaining the remaining billion the remaining billions. Do it right now. You can 100%. >> This is a familyfriendly show. You will not get trashed. >> We'll we'll save that for cron digital. >> Anyways, go ahead. Trash. Sorry. You were asking about knowledge workers. >> Yeah, but yeah. So, they're obviously sounds like uh their sales pitch was like you have a lot of tabs. So, like Confluence, Trello, god forbid. God forbid you use Trello. I don't know anyone that uses Trell. Trello. >> Okay. What is Can you guys tell me what the hell Trello? Is this by the same company? >> Trello is Jira but with color crayons. No, >> but is it the same company or is it a different company? >> It's owned by Atlassian as well. >> And it's a conbon board. That's it. It's just a drag and drop tasks between places. >> So what? Okay. So are you supposed to if you are a proper enterprise doing serious development? >> No. >> Are you supposed to have Jira and Trello or you have one or the other? Trello is Trello is for side projects and startups, but not anymore because they got bought by Atlassian. So now it's like lame. >> Yeah. Isn't it linear or whatever is like the new >> That's the alternative to Jira, right? >> Oh my god. The new computer. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> It's So this is the for me I feel like this is kind of the funniest thing because everybody I know who liked browsers made by the browser company liked it. I'm gonna just say it. Here's my hot take. 97.3% of the reason they liked it was because they had cool promotional videos that made you feel like a cool person. And now they're owned by Atlassian. Your artsy hipster browser is owned by the universally hated enterprise company. How can you get a good product? They're going to get chewed up and spat out by the Jira machine. Like it doesn't make any sense. It's gonna be bad. >> To be fair, when when they did so so Jira did do a twominutish video kind of saying why they bought it and how they're going to use AI and we have too many tabs and all that. The browser company did 18 second video where it just like looked at some leaves >> and a little mouse came up. It just clicked twice and it just said >> like coming soon or some some crap like that or something like that. That's what I'm saying. All of their videos are like, so when we did terminal.shop launch week, we parodyied like what they did intentionally as like a meme and tried to take ourselves as seriously as they could. I think we still didn't reach that level. Like I still couldn't take myself as seriously in a parody as they did. So it's like I don't know how getting acquired by Atlassian is going to go over with their audience base. It would be like your favorite local coffee shop gets bought up by Starbucks and like we're still going to be independent. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Guys, we're still just a small coffee shop fighting against a man. I did take >> the company of New York is now wearing like a full like three-piece suit like kind of thing from from Wall Street and they're sitting in Greenwich Village and you're just like, "Guys, the curly mustache and the bow tie. Now they have the suit on and all that. They're not the hipsters anymore." >> Yeah. >> Okay. Right. And so that part is I don't know how that's going to go over as f everybody's reaction who I knew used Ark before that a lot of them left when the the D's nut scenario happened right >> like they were all like my artsy browser it's gone. >> Serious question. Do you all actually switch browsers ever? >> I did switch to Zen eventually just to try it out the side tabs. I wanted to see were the side tabs any >> is it good? Did you did did you find >> I actually really my actually favorite part is the essentials. You actually have like three different levels of things you can say as like super important, sort of important, and then just everything else. And like that's been pretty useful. >> Okay. It's funny cuz like I just been using the same setup for years. I just see all these people like switching to this and this and then they ultimately come back to where I was and I'm just like >> Casey, what browser are you using? That's what I want to know. >> Yeah, Casey. >> Microsoft Edge. Uh, currently Brave, but not for any real reason other than I just wanted a Chromium based browser because Firefox kind of tanked. Like it doesn't really Firefox like barely runs anymore in like it's kind of questionable. So >> Firefox is actually awful. Firefox I'm using Zen Zen is Firefox based. It is awful. >> It's pretty bad now and I don't expect it to get much better. So I just I don't know. Like I use browsers begrudgingly obviously and I don't really have to use them for much actual like work except that now that I do have a website that I have to maintain it's more work like so I actually do unfortunately spend more time in browsers than I would like. Uh so if there was like some really amazing browser that'd be great but the problem with browsers is usually not the browser it's the web architecture. So I don't really see how switching a web browser is really going to help much. Uh, you know, I I I don't see it being something that's going to be useful long term. Putting like some kind of random, you know, sprinkling of fairy dust over the top of of the same underlying engine is not going to solve any problems that I have. Really? >> Yeah. >> It's almost as if I wish I could order something through SSH, right? >> It's true. If only there was an alternative way in which the internet could be. >> Where is your bag? >> I don't have Do I need to order coffee via WSL? didn't get in. >> No, he did. >> Do I need to do WSL and then SSH and then order coffee? >> Yes, you did. >> I saved this. >> I don't have one. >> Open. >> I don't have one. That was someone else's picture. >> Oh, what? You still haven't gotten yours? >> No. Was I supposed to get one? >> Yes. >> 100%. >> Unless you lied to me and you said you signed up for cron for no reason and then you didn't do it. >> I actually did not sign up for >> Okay. >> I completely forgot. I completely forgot. I will do it. >> Casey, check this out. Uh, yes. Close the camera. >> When I get mine, I'm not even going to open it. I'm just going to put it in my office. >> Trash, I'll send you I'll send you some more. >> Here's a question for you. >> Tower, we are making fun of trash because he did unhash ads ad just in case. Uh, you know, I don't I don't want to be mistaken about any of this. Could you tell me something about like the flavor and quality of this coffee since I can't myself experience it right now? >> Just to be clear, this is for entertainment purposes only and does not constitute an advertisement. I just want that to be clear before we do this. Uh because somebody on here got themselves in a little hot water on x.com the acting application. Uh this one is a medium blend from Papa New Guinea. >> Okay. Not just any coffee, not just your hero type >> type. Hero reference. That one's >> Yep. # add is a harmony of dried fruit, milk chocolate, and floral peach. >> Oh, and we're actually going to add this bag. >> We're going to add this bag to the shop for a little bit as a limited time so that some people who weren't Crown members can get them cuz I know there's a lot of trash supporters out there. >> Yeah, I can't drink caffeinated coffee anymore because I get too freaked. I get I get too wired. I >> see. We got a sick decaf blend. 404. >> Oh, really? >> Yeah. >> One sec. >> And I have not had this. And I I don't have a bag of this for what reason again? >> Well, when you go >> You haven't gone on to SSH terminal. >> Do I look like someone who knows how to use SSH to you? I'm the person who still does not understand and will never understand why I have to use SFTP to transfer files instead of just when I'm in SSH just saying put the thing like how is that not a thing? >> You just said you're in SSH. You just lied to me. >> What? >> There you go. You like this Casey? >> 404 caffeine not found. >> Yes. >> I'll send you some. Talk to me. Talk to me after. >> You guys know what I'm saying, right? Isn't that confusing? I don't understand it. How come you have to like if you're in SSH, why can't you just transfer files through that? >> Doesn't seem like you should be able to. >> SCP secured copy >> copy. >> You can just type SCP now and copy something from the local machine to the remote machine without running. >> The 80s were wild. >> Can you actually do that? >> Do SCP- help? You just It's literally just SSH for >> arsync. True. Arsync is even better. It was crazy because like they made Arsync and then after that they made Dropbox and Dropbox is really just RSync wraps. >> No, no. I Okay, I want to get this straight. I want get this straight because you guys might be lying to me here. I want I want to know you're telling me the truth. >> SCP is real. >> SCP is real. >> If you are in Open up your terminal right now, do use Weasel 2, >> okay? >> And just type in SCP-Help. >> No, no, no, no. I mean in an SS in SSH. You want to just be like, I'm on this machine. I want to copy something. >> That's right. >> Got you. Got you. >> I don't know if that's possible. >> See? See? This is what I'm saying. Like, you're right there. You're on the machine. You have a tunnel set up. You just want the thing to transfer a freaking file. And it's like >> Z upload. Is that a thing? >> Nah, bro. >> That sounds like a site where you download NX and you >> Yes, it does. >> Okay. I'm just throwing it up. >> Yes, it does. >> Yes, it does. Are you ready to move to the next thing here? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> At the end of the day, nobody knows what happened with Jirroup. So, we're just going to have to call that one a No. >> Well, we're going to have to wait and find out. >> I I know, but I've talked every single person I've talked to just said I have no idea. I have never understood. I don't I have no idea what they're going to do with this other than ruin it. >> No one's going to use it 100%. >> Yeah. I mean, it just seems confusing. Anyways, >> yeah. Go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead. >> All right. So, this next section, which I'm calling uh too much AI, I saw this little tweet earlier, and I thought that maybe you would like to take a little look at it. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I said, "I tried manually coding a feature, and I just can't anymore. >> It's like I know how to do it, but my body simply refuses to do this manually again, no matter how wrong the LLM agent will be." >> Is that too much AI? Have we finally hit the peak of too much AI? But hold on, there's more. This little beautiful one right here is everybody's favorite company, Coinbase, which is 40% of daily code written at Coinbase is AI generated and they're trying to get it to 50%. >> Hey, >> which when I hear of a company that is based on irreversible financial uh transactions, you know what I hope for? High percentage of AI coding. I was just going to say like so I am looking forward to the next n Coinbase hacks of which there will be many. >> They already leaked all the data million. >> Yeah, that's what I'm saying like like it's not going to change anything but >> they're doing that. That is all Tailwind changes. There is no way they're letting it h the he literally says in the tweet on that one some code should not be AI generated. It's surely that they have like a million vibe coders pushing forward random features on the front end and the diffs are all plus 30,000 lines. You know what I mean? like that. Please be the case, Coinbase. Please be the case. >> They're they're probably also potentially somehow considering like tab auto completion. Maybe they're like handwaving like ah 20%. Which is just, >> you know, like they're just saying, "Oh, that also counts." >> I don't even believe it. I mean that like a lot of a lot of code. So I can look at a project, you know, on GitHub or something that was made before AI and I'm like, "Yeah, I could believe this was all AI generated." Like the the coding quality is like super low, right? It's just like piles and piles and piles and piles and piles of stuff. Clearly Swiss cheese. Like if you were a security researcher, you'd just be like, "Well, I'm getting a lot of papers out of this, right?" Um, so I would believe it. I I don't think we weren't rolling we did not roll into the AI era with high coding standards. We rolled in with rock bottom coding standards. >> So I believe people when they say 40% cuz I'm like I can't tell the difference between the code you were writing before and the code that this AI is spitting out looks the same. It's just complete garbage where you just pile crap on top of each other and duplicate code 50 million times and do all it it doesn't look different to me. So I I believe people when they say that. Uh maybe they're lying but I don't think they have to be cuz I could believe it. You know, I don't think Coinbase is a Fort Knox of security, right? Uh >> Fort Knox doesn't even have gold in it anymore, Casey. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, man. >> Actually, >> where did all the Where did all the Where's the gold audit? Where's the Fort Knox gold audit? >> Trash, >> you can look up. >> The Bill Gates microchips have all the gold in them. They needed the gold for the chips for the microchips for the 5G receivers. >> Trash, look up when was the last time we got to go see in the inside of Fort Knox. >> I don't know. The only thing I remember from Fort Knox is in Die Hard with a Vengeance and that movie was awesome. >> Didn't see it. >> I didn't see that one. >> Love the first one though. >> The idea though is have we hit to is is this too much AI? Have we finally hit it where people just don't even they're like ah because it's not like LLMs can just do everything. So we're kind of in this weird world where you do have to manually code quite a few things. But if everyone's just like I don't even want to do it. Like what what what what does that mean? What does that say for us? I mean, I use AI to do like the stuff that's just really easy to do. >> But what does that mean? >> So, like um work. >> Well, my job. >> No, no, but like say say if I just >> It's time to show up to the podcast. >> No, like I'll have it like >> is doing my job right now. Why do you think I could be here? >> Hey, dude. I just I just shipped like 30 new features just now. Okay. I'm getting paid and I'm shipping features. No, but like if it's just like, hey, test this for me in like these different scenarios or like yesterday I had to like test some caching stuff and I was like I gave it some like uh to-dos of like test this scenario for the cache and make sure the cache isn't validated. It just did all the tests for me from what I could tell properly. Um or like or just like small refactor stuff that are just kind of like grunt work. Um I will always delegate that to the >> I like that caveat >> from what I could tell probably. I will say >> like I told it to test the thing and it tested the whole thing. >> I mean it did was worked for like an hour. It must have done something. I don't know. >> But like literally like 80% of the time I'm like that's not right. And it's just like you're right. I should. So it's kind of annoying and then some at some point I just stop and I'm just I do it myself. But >> I will say though, >> trash, >> like I I'm quite a bit more willing to change like the the shape of something >> if like like let's say we have like 10 instances or like 10 to 30 or something like cuz I'm working on Mordoria right now for our game and like sometimes we like make enemies one way to start and I realize we need to change it. I'm like a lot more willing to change that now than I used to be because I can just say like hey here I can be like you know whatever cursor or open code or whatever like here's the file that looks right now here's the directory of the rest of them like make them all look like this one >> the diff that's literally what I do I'm like here's a working example just copy it >> yes >> don't just like go fix the other ones there's 20 of them that are the wrong way we had to like move this thing into this child thing and now we're passing it here boom like even like even you You know, sometimes, sure, you could do a macro and you could do some other stuff like that and like I could get through quite a few of them sometimes, like pretty quickly, but sometimes it's not quite so obvious, right? It's like I'm changing the name of something to be slightly different and it's not really like macroable really or whatever. That is an easy way to generate 5,000 lines of code. >> Exactly. >> That is that is essentially zero in a way, right? Because it's like it's it's it's it's like I changed a bunch of stuff. Sure, it's AI generated, so it's like technically it's true, but it's really like I just ran a macro like on on this thing. So, it's more like, you know, it's the change number of lines. Like, for some reason, we think measuring how much code AI writes is good by lines of code, but we would never decide whether a software developer is a good software developer at a company by measuring how many lines of code they did this year. There's some stuff like did they write any like okay well they got to write something to do something good. >> So there's some there's some cases where it's obvious but you wouldn't be like >> ah Tom over there he wrote a 100,000 lines last week in Jay Diesel and so he's really the guy that we love. Tom's a genius. You'd be like no >> in in general it's usually the other way around. So I would usually measure productivity by features and how few lines of code it took. Right? So like if you tell me you can implement this feature in 100 lines of code, that's way better than someone who's like, "Oh man, I implemented that feature and it, yeah, I wrote 30,000 lines of code." I'm like, cuz I see that a lot online. And I'm like, >> do you guys have any idea what you can do in C in 30 lines thousand lines of code, let alone like something like Python where you have a game inside your application. >> Like you literally can do an entire game engine in around 10,000 lines of code if you want to, right? And so you did 30,000 lines of code and they're like I moved this button and you're like what the hell is wrong with you? Like how is this possible? So there is a lot of that where I look at the things that people are stating as like supposed evidence that things went well and I'm like that sounds terrible. But again I mean I think when you roll in with such rock bottom standards I mean that apparently skates as something that is quote unquote evidence that this is working well but sounds like it's working terribly. I would love to see we have 90% of our code that's getting deleted is by AI. >> Yeah, that's what you want. That's what you want, >> AI bros. That's what it should be. It should be like I ran this thing on this 500 mill, you know, 500,000 line GitHub repo and it reduced it to 50,000 lines and it still does all the same stuff. That's the AI you actually want, right? >> Yes. >> Maybe. >> Can it reduce entropy? >> That's what I want. I so far I have seen it add a lot of entropy to my systems which sometimes it needs. That's okay. Could still be productive and helpful or you're in JavaScript land and everything's entropy. There's no such thing as just I got to install 37 tools to get through my day. >> Uh but yeah, it's I would love to see more like hey 30, you know, 30% of our PRs are code reduction PRs by AI. It starts up stuff and like finds patterns that we wrote the same 37 times throughout the codebase and wraps it up into one. solves it, >> which it feels like it should be able to do, but for some reason is not doing. So, I don't know. Like, I don't really know what's going on there. If it's just a case of like the people who are training these things don't train them properly or what I I don't know. Or maybe it's just a really hard problem. >> It's a lame demo compared to oneshotting something. I think that's one honestly honestly it's one of the big problems is like a lot of stuff >> is based on the demo >> is 0 to one and not you know 38 to 42, right? You know, they just they don't really care about 38 to 42 as much. >> Are these football terms? Cuz I don't know. >> I'm saying like zero to one like the touchdown and >> Yes. No, I was zero to one like I don't have any code to like a a minimum like an MVP. I'm saying >> I knew that one, but I know the 38 to 42. >> I just picked two random numbers of like farther in the future. >> All right. >> I still don't get it. >> Yeah, that's doing a scale of 0 to 60. 60 being your >> I was just making up random numbers. >> Okay. and hope they weren't want the code to get somewhat better. Like I just want things to improve and right now AI seems to be doing the opposite. That's the thing, right? >> I so I don't think they could do even what you're saying with the whole like find patterns and reduce it. I'm not sure if AI can do that because it might because I'm positive if you took tree sitter and you just said how many like similar patterns do I have in my codebase just like structurally speaking you could find patterns all over the place throughout your codebase structurally and it's just like what does it mean to an AI to find things of similar pattern or shape you might I I'm not sure if this this might be actually a really hard problem that is not very obvious to us because for us it's very easy to see what should be or I know I say that so flippantly But a lot of people get it wrong. But you get the idea that it's it's easy to look at things and be like, "Oh, I can make this more simple by moving it to here." But that's also one of those amazing parts about humans is it takes a 100 neurons to tell if something's a cat and it takes trillions of operations for an LLM to see if something's a cat, right? It's just like the vast difference is >> is incredible. >> I just mean like all right, I mean that could be true in which case AI is just doomed, right? But I'm like, if all the people out there who are AI optimists, I'm like, you should be showing me this. Like, show me the thing that actually does something good instead of the thing that always poops out poop, right? Like, >> um, in coding, it feels coding, it feels like we're still at the thing where it like generates 17 fingers on the guy's hand in the photo, right? Like that's where it feels like we're at in code. >> And so, like, I want to see someone that's like, "No, it can actually draw a human fairly reliably now." like like get us there at some point please. I mean because people are using these tools and they're very bad in my opinion. >> Yeah, I've had good success if like >> the problem is well scoped. it's in a like codebase that has similar patterns and I can say like the one we were saying before in trash I think you've said you've done this too of just like hey >> I I got I changed this one I updated it now I need you to go do this in like 40 files just go spend some tokens burn some electricity and solve this for me like that actually has worked really well for me and it is nice because it >> it like frees me up to fix my previous mistakes right in the sense that like sometimes you'd be uh it's just not really worth it to like go and change the structure of this because I got to go find all the places and do all this stuff. If you can just be like go find all the places and fix those for me, uh it's nice. So, I've also I've used it like for a wide range of stuff. But I do think people would be like better served by showing real examples of like I pointed at this codebase and it reduced 2,000 lines of code that for me I would be like that's awesome. I would be way more excited for your project. Yeah, it feels like it would be very useful. And and what is more needed like on in a lot of these projects that I see like they're they're just when I look at them, I'm like, "Okay, you guys you guys literally took like 10,000 lines of code to do something that's like literally 100 lines of code just because no one really knew what's going on." And I I >> maybe that's something AIs can't do in the near term, but it kind of doesn't feel it doesn't feel like that should be the case. I just feel like they probably just don't have good training sets to like they probably just don't have a way to really train it to do that right now. But, you know, >> that was one of the things um we didn't get to it last uh last episode, but like uh I think honestly the not one of the things people are underestimating about the training data on GitHub is not just that you have code there, but that you can actually see the changes over time and like training on diffs and other stuff like that, right? Or uh recently I saw an article where uh Open AAI maybe in Microsoft or someone else I don't know was thinking about licensing like cursor edits or something for people who have like that turned on or whatever like >> yeah because it needs to see that. But of course the problem is if everyone is doing the thing that I'm complaining about which is hey I just spammed out 10,000 lines of code to move the button over here or whatever >> then that means the AI learns that way and and that's a problem right? So, and I don't know how you fix that problem other than you have to shift the way that you're doing your AI to one that's more of an adversarial training process, like more like an AlphaGo kind of a thing. Yeah. >> Which I guess they just haven't really quite gotten enough of that into the process yet or whatever. >> I'm going to be I'm still going to have a job writing code later because they're going to just be paying me to write code to train AI off me. See? So, that's that's my job security. Daisy, >> do you think it's going to be like a like a uh a boutique thing in the future where it's like uh you're you you kind of like have a an officially licensed >> like kind of like you know you have officially licensed sport like a this is Michael Jordan's shoe. >> It's like this is TJ's like you know AI that you use and it programs like him or whatever or you can be like him when you program. >> We should do that. I want trash. I want trash as my coding buddy the whole time. He's like, "Great work. Let's eat a Dorito." You know what I mean? I'm like, >> "Yeah, I want to be the modernday Clippy." All right. Can you just imagine me? Can you imagine me just in the bottom right hand your corner and like, "Dude, that's sick." >> We need to make that. We actually need to make that. >> It looks like you're trying to be incredibly baller. Go for it. >> You know what? You deserve a Dorito. Let's go. >> All right. >> I got to go to jiu-jitsu. I'll be right back. And then it just disappears for like two hours. >> Don't ask for me for like a couple hours. I got to go work out. >> And there's a little silhouette of it like going like doing all this stuff and like throwing >> like when you could have their dancing avatars on Windows when they had those like you could have the dancing avatars. Yeah. >> Oh man. >> Well, that stuff has evolved now. You know that, right? Like there's an entire market of idle games that run down in the taskbar basically like on the bottom of your Windows desktop. So, you know that that could be where that could be where trash is ultimately headed. Yeah, I like that. Trash. We can make that happen. We can immortalize you. >> True. >> Trash idlers. New a new genre of trash idlers. >> All right. So, I'm I'm going to attempt to steal man some of the AI I think things that is has been flowing through a lot of like the the normies thought process on this all which is that computers are fast enough to process a lot of code and we call these things like techbet or poorly written code. But if an AI can fix the poorly written code, and it doesn't matter how many times it's copied, it doesn't matter about all of that. If it just keeps on abstracting you away, and it's just able to take care of all of those headaches, it doesn't matter if the diff was 10 lines or a thousand lines because at the end of the day, computers are fast enough and we should be able to produce out the exact uh like feature set we want regardless of the quality of the code. And when I need to refactor, I don't think about refactoring. I'm just like, "Hey, update this." and it goes and it finds all the places and it does either the manually updating or maybe god forbid it it reduces entropy and does some sort of refactoring. But at the end of the day, it's just like no, that's not a problem. That's not that's not the way we think about things. >> Well, there's several problems with it, right? The very first one and most important one for this domain is security because the more lines of code you have, the more exploits you have almost always, right? So that's problem A because we're talking about a lot of times we're talking about like web development stuff. So it's not like a video game or something where you're just running it in some situation where maybe you just don't care because it's like completely, you know, it's on the PlayStation and it's completely isolated processor, whatever. Who knows? Um, thing two is performance is already abysmal. I mean, I'm already sitting here. I click a button and I wait, you know, like >> this is a good thought, by the way. I this is just me trying to steel man them as much as possible. >> The problem is computers aren't fast enough. They just aren't. We've still managed to to slow them down. And the problem is the way in which they slow down right now is very very very tied to the structure of what you're doing. So if you have your AI is generating all these like server round trips or whatever because that implements the feature, well your customers will be waiting longer and longer and longer to click the button or to open up the app or all the other things which people claim is fine, but whenever anyone does a study, they find that like every additional 100 milliseconds costs them money like cost them actual revenue, right? And so it's not okay, right? It's not okay to sacrifice performance because it actually not only does it ruin everything for everybody who actually uses your software, but it actually does end up hurting you in the long run, too. So, that's a problem. Thing number three is wait, where's the electricity coming from? Someone still needs to explain where the electricity is coming from, >> right? >> Lightning. Casey, come on. >> I was going to say Zeus, >> what are you talking about, dude? That's how we get our electricity. We just get lightning. I I want I I really still at some point want to hear where the company it's going to be building more nuclear power plants. I guess I'm not sure, but obviously like we've had this whole push of like everyone in Silicon Valley is falling all over themselves to tell us what great people they are and how wonderful they are and how they're on the right side of all these social causes and they're like also by the way we're going to use roughly the uh power consumption of Germany for all of our data center things added up, right? I mean, I think Germany's like 60 gawatt and AI data, one AI data center is 1 gawatt. >> Can I give you a fun fact? >> Yeah. >> I I did a little bit of research on this. So, to fly a fully loaded jet from LA to New York, >> Yeah. >> happens about 22 to 26 times a day. >> Okay. >> It would take approximately 183 days of full flights back and forth to equal one day of Chad GPT. >> Yeah. >> Processing power in GPT5. It's not good, right? This is not good. >> Yeah. So, every two days is a year worth of burning that much stuff. >> When I watched Back to the Future though, he just did it like in his car. He made a lot of jigawatts, Casey. So, like I don't understand what the concern is. >> Well, the concern is just like where it's going to come from. And maybe the answer is like the the we build more nuclear power plants or something which might be fine, but that is not happening currently. So, I don't know. Is it just burning coal or something which is not going to be a good outcome, right? The thing dinosaur juice clean out of the ground, buddy. >> Suck that dinosa people people want dinosaurs back. So if we put it all back in the air, we can have dinosaurs again. We can make the planet warm enough for dinosaurs again. This is the whole point of the whole thing, right? >> Seen the movie. The dinosaurs die at the end and then Scarlett Johansson has to go to an island and save people. Scarlett Johansson too like in Chad GPT. You remember Sam got in a little bit of trouble with that. >> Wait, what happened? >> He tried to clone. He asked if Scarlett Johansson wanted to be the voice of Chachi Petish. She said, "Nah." So, he got a copycat version >> and then was like, "Oh, we didn't get you. We got someone else." >> That was like the beginning of the whole AI craze. >> Okay. My serious thing I want to say about what you were saying Casey too is that uh like it even if you think AI is still going to write all your code, it's actually better if AI can do it more concisely for regular people because you're going to pay by the token. But that actually leaves a perverse incentive. It sure is >> for AI companies who at least >> for people training models I think like cursor would prefer you to take less tokens because they don't want to have to charge you more money. Right. >> Right. But like OpenAI they like if all the code takes a lot of tokens and it churns a lot all the time because then they say excellent your entire business depends on you sending this back to me and you don't know what to do with it. So they're like they have a very perverse incentive actually to like well we'll just keep pushing the context window bigger. That's really what you need. You really need two million tokens of context and load that bad boy up. Load it up. You know like >> which also means that they have agent problems too, right? Oh, you know what? We need to our agents are going to get extra smart. They're going to double check every file, >> right? Yeah, >> I would also point out that unlike so one of the nice things about a current data center like if you were just look at like a data center that you built for I don't know AWS or something or a Google data center for the most part they're pretty multi-purpose like you can do lots of different stuff with it you know you can you could run some really slick very custom very efficient application on it that was written to bare metal or whatever you want right you could do all kinds of or you can run like 12 layers of bloated Python. You could do whatever you want, right? And the data center will just they're pretty general purpose and there might be certain use cases that they're maybe not optimal for, but it's it we can it can adapt, right? And so all of us out there can use it for various reasons. An AI denator can only do one thing and one thing only, and that is low precision matrix multiplies. That's basically it. Like it's not going to do anything else well. It's not going to be power efficient doing anything else. It's going to be very power hungry uh if you were to run anything else on it because most of the equipment in it and the entire structure and like it's liquid cooled, right? Is it's not going to be air cooled like a normal data center blah blah blah. I mean there's some there are some data centers that are are liquid cooled, but either way I'm saying like they're they're designed totally differently and they have way more power being pushed through them because that's how AI you know AI is a very sustained high load kind of a thing. So, we're also building out a tremendous amount of infrastructure that's completely useless for anything else but this. And that also sucks in my opinion because what if this turns out to not be that great? What if we find there's a much better way to be doing this stuff? Like what happens to all of this buildout? So that's not very encouraging either in my opinion. But I guess you know their answer is just well we'll just build more data like all right. I mean I don't know. It's it's just I don't love this kind of stuff. I like general purpose computing. I don't like this hyper specialized kind of thing, but that's where we're at. >> Confirmed. Casey likes Python 12 layers of things over CUDA. Got it. >> Confirmed. >> Confirmed. >> I mean, in But I I hate to say it, >> but actually, yes. Like, >> oh, we got them. >> That's kind of true. Like, I love I love GPUs and I love GPU programming. I think that's very interesting. If you're a gamer and you bought one, >> was that better software conference? You're you're not inviting Casey back this year? Yeah, exactly. >> But I love the fact that the data center can do that. I love that. Like I I >> I absolutely hate the fact that I have to use code that's 16 layers of Python deep or whatever, right? >> Mhm. >> But I absolutely love the fact that that worked and an AI data center literally cannot run that. It would just roll over and die, right? So you >> just ask the AI to evaluate it and guess what the output would be. >> I mean, I shouldn't say it can't run it. I mean, obviously it can run it. It can run it. It just costs so much more power to run it is the right way to say it, right? It's like it's not like it can't. It's just it's so much less efficient. >> Yeah. >> So, well, that was pretty neat. >> Casey, it was a cool story. >> It was a cool story. >> I agree with you. But hey, guess what? I think that means we're done for the day, huh? >> Signing off for Friday. >> Signing out for Friday. >> See you later. >> Great Friday, everyone. up the day. Voting errors on my screen. Terminal coffee and living the dream., The Standup - Jira Bought 2 Browsers???, ThePrimeTime, 01k5ffzc1p0gnf7xd8xdwm3ndd.