The WordPress Situation Is Wild  ## Metadata - Author: [[ThePrimeTime]] - Full Title: The WordPress Situation Is Wild - Category: #articles - Document Note: --- tags: - #cease_and_desist - #WordPress_drama - #open_source_controversy Author: [Matt Mullenweg] Source: [YouTube Video] Reference: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gd8h_6vYPJ8] date created: {{date:YYYY-MM-DD}} {{time:HH:mm}} --- # Title: WordPress Drama: Automattic vs WP Engine ## Table of Contents: - 📝 [Summary](#-summary) - 📖 [Main Content](#-main-content) - 🗒️ [Notes](#-notes) - 📖 [References](#-references) - 🗣️ [Paraphrase](#-paraphrase) - 📰 [Newsletter Blurb](#-newsletter) - ✅ [Action Items](#-action-items) - 🧪 [Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - 📊 [Methodology](#-methodology) - ❓ [Questions](#-questions) - 🔮 [Future Research](#-future-research) - 💡 [Implications](#-implications) - 🧠 [Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - 📊 [Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - 🌍 [DEIB Assessment](#-deib-diversity-equity-inclusion-and-belonging-assessment) - ✅ [Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - 🔍 [SEO Evaluation](#-seo-evaluation) - 🎯 [Conclusion](#-conclusion) ## 📝 Summary: The video delves into the escalating drama between Automattic (the company behind WordPress) and WP Engine. Automattic's CEO, Matt Mullenweg, has called out WP Engine for their actions regarding the WordPress community, which has led to a series of cease and desist letters from both sides. The key issues revolve around trademark use, open-source contributions, and conflicts of interest within the WordPress ecosystem. The feud has significant implications for how companies can use the WordPress name and contribute to the community. ## 📖 Main Content: The drama between Automattic and WP Engine has intensified due to a series of trademark disputes and accusations of community misrepresentation. WP Engine has been accused of not contributing adequately to the WordPress community while benefiting immensely from the platform's popularity. In response, WP Engine has defended its actions, claiming their support includes plugins, educational resources, and community events. However, Matt Mullenweg sees their contributions as lacking, especially compared to Automattic's involvement. The core of the dispute includes the legalities surrounding WP Engine's use of the "WP" and "WordPress" trademarks, and Matt's assertion that they exploit the open-source community while giving back minimally. The legal battle has also highlighted differences in interpretations of what constitutes a "true" contribution to an open-source ecosystem. ## 🗒️ Notes: - WP Engine and Automattic are engaged in a legal battle over trademark usage. - Automattic claims WP Engine misuses WordPress and WooCommerce trademarks. - WP Engine argues that their use of "WP" is not a violation, as it falls under fair use. - Matt Mullenweg's allegations: - WP Engine contributes only 40 hours per week to WordPress, compared to Automattic's 4,000 hours. - WP Engine allegedly exploits the WordPress ecosystem without meaningful contributions. - WP Engine's rebuttal: - They sponsor numerous community events and educational resources. - They maintain multiple popular plugins and contribute to the broader open-source landscape. - Cease and desist letters from both sides. - Automattic demands that WP Engine ceases trademark use. - WP Engine counters with claims of extortion attempts by Matt Mullenweg. - Matt Mullenweg's actions include threatening to go "scorched earth" if WP Engine doesn’t comply with financial demands. ## 📖 References: - YouTube Video: [The WordPress Situation Is Wild](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gd8h_6vYPJ8) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase: 1. Matt Mullenweg accuses WP Engine of trying to extract profits from the WordPress community without giving back in return, highlighting a discrepancy between the contributions of both companies. WP Engine, however, maintains that their support includes various open-source projects and community engagement efforts. 2. WP Engine's use of "WP" in their name and branding is at the center of the trademark controversy. Matt asserts that this confuses users into thinking WP Engine is officially associated with WordPress, whereas WP Engine claims it has used this terminology within the bounds of trademark law for years. ## 📰 Newsletter: 🌟 **WordPress Ecosystem Heats Up: What's Happening Between Automattic and WP Engine?** 🌟 Hey WordPress enthusiasts! Things are getting spicy in the WordPress world, and we can't help but talk about it. Automattic's Matt Mullenweg has called out WP Engine for allegedly misusing the "WP" and "WordPress" trademarks and for "feeding off" the community without adequate contribution. This feud has led to a flurry of cease and desist letters, with accusations flying from both sides. 🤯 But what does this mean for us? Well, if you're a WordPress user or developer, it's crucial to stay informed. WP Engine claims they're doing their part, contributing via plugins and resources, but Automattic wants to see more direct involvement. This could lead to tighter controls on how companies use the WordPress brand. Catch up on all the drama and think about how this impacts your projects. Should WP Engine and similar companies be doing more to support the open-source community? 💬 Let us know your thoughts! [Watch the full breakdown here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gd8h_6vYPJ8). ## ✅ Action Items: As an advocate for transparency and inclusivity in open source, this dispute provides an opportunity to reflect on how businesses engage with open-source projects. WP Engine’s stance on trademark usage and contributions shows the different ways companies can give back. This discussion aligns well with fostering an inclusive ecosystem, where contributions aren’t just measured by coding hours but by broader community support. For an aspiring OSPO director, this is a prime example of the complexities in balancing corporate interests with community values. ## 🧪 Hypotheses: - If Automattic succeeds in enforcing stricter trademark rules, smaller hosting companies may reduce their involvement with WordPress. - Increasing contributions from WP Engine could improve their community perception and mitigate legal risks. ### 📊 Methodology: - Conduct a survey among hosting companies to assess their contributions and perceptions of Automattic’s enforcement. - Analyze social media sentiments before and after the public dispute to gauge community opinion. ### ❓ Questions: - How do we define a "sufficient" contribution to an open-source community? - Could Automattic's trademark enforcement harm the WordPress ecosystem by deterring potential partners? ### 🔮 Future Research: - Investigate the impact of trademark disputes on open-source project adoption. - Explore how different models of contribution (e.g., monetary sponsorship vs. direct code contributions) are valued in open-source communities. ### 💡 Implications: - Stricter enforcement of trademarks may set a precedent for other open-source projects, potentially limiting collaboration. - Clarifying what counts as a meaningful contribution could help prevent future disputes like this one. ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment: - **Visual Learners (Spatial)**: - **Present**: Screenshots of legal documents are shared in the video. - **Improve**: Add diagrams explaining the relationships between different stakeholders. - **Aural Learners (Auditory-Musical)**: - **Present**: The video format naturally caters to auditory learners. - **Improve**: Add an audio summary at the end. - **Verbal Learners (Linguistic)**: - **Present**: Detailed explanation of legal arguments. - **Improve**: Use more analogies to explain legal concepts in layman's terms. - **Physical Learners (Kinesthetic)**: - **Improve**: Suggest exercises where viewers can write out their understanding of the legal aspects. - **Logical Learners (Mathematical)**: - **Present**: Logical breakdown of the timeline of events. - **Improve**: Include a flowchart mapping out the events and responses. - **Social Learners (Interpersonal)**: - **Improve**: Link to discussion forums where viewers can talk about their thoughts. - **Solitary Learners (Intrapersonal)**: - **Improve**: Encourage viewers to reflect on how - Document Tags: [[Matt Mullenweg]] [[open source corporate contribution]] [[wordpress]] [[wpdrama]] [[wp engine]] - Summary: Recorded live on twitch, GET IN ### My Stream https://twitch.tv/ThePrimeagen ### Best Way To Support Me Become a backend engineer. Its my favorite site https://boot.dev/?promo=PRIMEYT This is also the best way to support me is to support yourself becoming a better backend engineer. MY MAIN YT CHANNEL: Has well edited engineering videos https://youtube.com/ThePrimeagen Discord https://discord.gg/ThePrimeagen Have something for me to read or react to?: https://www.reddit.com/r/ThePrimeagen Kinesis Advantage 360: https://bit.ly/Prime-Kinesis Get production ready SQLite with Turso: https://turso.tech/deeznuts - URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gd8h_6vYPJ8 all right WordPress drama to be completely fair I didn't think WordPress was still like really active I thought it was uh I thought it was in the sense that it was kind of like just kind of like a maintained only item it wasn't some sort of new item that's still doing a bunch of stuff so I didn't know this was happening so I'm a little bit confused but apparently there's a cease and assis letter which we have right here which we're going to look at so this is new okay it's new to me I'm I'm excited here we go WordPress hosting service WP engine on Monday sent a cease and deist letter to to automat to automatic after automatic CEO Matt mwag called WP engine a cancer to Wordpress last week I wasn't ready for this one I uh this is not what I was thinking this was going to be the notas as automatic and IM and wga to retract their comments and stop making statements against the company what exactly is the cease and desist letter claiming what's what's the legal ramifications of him saying it's a cancer cancer bads bro all right hold on we are mitigation Council for WP engine and right to address the serious and repeated misconduct automatic has directed toward WP engine over the past several days is it because what they're saying is you could be considered slander and because it has a material effect because you can actually show losses is that is that what it is because it's really hard to charge for liable or slander because often you have to first understand and the big thing about those two is that it it can't just be that someone called you a bad name it has to be that someone called you a bad name that caused you to lose money and so I could see this okay this actually makes sense if the people who create WordPress called the people at WordPress engine a cancer one can understand why this would cause a lot of problems right I'm a bigger fish so I'll press you yeah it's definitely that yeah this this actually okay I'm not a lawyer so this is clearly I you in fact did I don't even this is not legal advice but I do not believe you have to say this is not legal advice but this sounds like they might have a case that they can win stunningly automatics I like how they use the word stunningly you know that you know for a fact that the lawyers at WP engine for a while had like a little bracket there that were like exclamation of the baffling nature of automatic CEO's comments which one is it you know stunningly this was a $500 word several rounds were put together before the word stunningly was officially put in there automatic CEO Matthew M uh mullenweg threatened that if WP engine did not agree to pay automat for his profit entity a very large sum of money before his September 20th keynote address at the word Camp us convention he was going to embark on a self-described Scorch thee nuclear approach toward WP Engine with the WordPress community and Beyond oh oh bro put it in writing that did he literally email extortion you either pay me money or I'll ruin you oh my gosh that is so funny dude you you you really don't have to be that smart to realize that you call somebody I mean like take a note from the Mafia the mafia would you'd go in and You' talk to them and whoever this person was that was talking to you being like hey you know I'd really appreciate it if you start paying your due around here and then you know what they do they then call up the big boss the big man up at top and be like hey you want to talk to Billy yeah Billy's here and then the big man's like hey this is a big man hey how's the weather oh the weather's doing good hey I wanted to take the time to talk to you okay yeah yeah this is Fat Tony it's Fat Tony just talk about the weather that's it closes the phone yeah the trick is plausible deniability then when someone asks you will you threaten him you go what are you talking about I talked about the weather I just called the Big Man asked him how the weather was up in up in Brooklyn and like that's it Fat Tony you know like dude reliving All The Sopranos right now no it's not just reliving All The Sopranos this is actually how they did it this is like classic mobster 101 behavior is that you don't tell them you're going to throw them off a bridge you talk about the weather with the big man because that means the guy that can just call the big man on the phone he has all the power behind the big man's agency so if you don't listen to him you get to go against that like that's the whole idea when his outrageous Financial demands were not met Mr Wallen wag or Mullen W carried out his threats by making repeated false claims disparaging WP engine to its employees its customers and the world Mr Mullen Wag has carried out this wrongful campaign against WP engine in multiple Outlets including his keynote address across several public platforms like ax YouTube and even on the WordPress org site and through the WordPress admin panel for all WordPress users including directly targeting WP engine customers in their own private WordPress instances used to run their online business whoa uh Mullen Wag has also let's see also left a severed horse head in WP Eng bed that's crazy updating your software to say that WP engine is bad and such that you get private WordPress instances getting hit with messages inside the admin panel that's dude you had to know this was a bad idea like you had to know this was a bad idea Mr Mullen wg's uh covert demand that WP engine hand over tens of millions to his for-profit company automatic while publicly masquerading as an alteristic protector of Wordpress Community is disgraceful WP engine will not aced uh to these unconscionable demands which not only harm WP engine and its employees but also threaten the entire WordPress Community WP engine has sought to do the right thing at each stage of Mr Mullen wg's wrongful campaign and will continue to do so with the integrity and cander that Hallmarks of its own culture and that of many participants in the WordPress ecosystem Mr Mullen wag's words and conduct constitute actionable wrongdoing and must cease immediately yeah cuz I feel like you can most certainly make a case that they've lost money here at least this seems pretty this seems pretty obvious that you are full on just in you are acting in like the most obviously illegal way possible crazy someone just said something in here and I want to I want to address this right here WP allows bad devs to be worse devs I don't like that I don't like that one bit you know why I don't like that you know why sure give me a moment lithium I'll talk to you in a moment the reason why I don't like that is that there's a lot of people who are just getting into programming who used WordPress as a platform to uh to get better and so of course they're bad devs everybody starts off as bad devs even good devs are bad devs in areas in which they don't know so I don't like that okay buddy of course bad devs do bad things I'm not even going to show that on screen lithium all right in the days leading up to Mr Mullen wake September 20th keynote address at the world Camp us convention automatic suddenly began demanding that WP engine pay automatic large sums of money and if it didn't automatic would wage a war against WP engine this demand was accompanied by allegations about WP engines business that were not only baseless but also bore no relation or rational relation to the payment demand I I do we get to hear the other side does anybody have a link to the other side cuz this all sounds really really bad but to be completely Frank it sometimes it's really hard to read through the bunch of the corporate BS so do we have the other side like do we have the reason in which they were demanding how much is large sums of money I think it totaled 30 million if I'm not mistaken which is a large sum of money someone account oh screenshots of the text messages okay I think I pronounced this name correctly this is such a great tweet I can't believe this has zero likes it's criminal that this has zero likes last I heard Matt counter suit all right yeah like if I oh on can't anybody at WordPress SL automatic take away this dude uh this dude's internet for a week because he causes more damage himself and the community putting a link to his pretty W uh whining winging winging whining wiening in the WordPress event new tabs the WordPress installs bonkers WP engine is not WordPress I mean that doesn't that doesn't feel very Bonkers I'm not going to lie that feels not Bonkers at all right if if that's the case we're making is this then that's that's not like that's not that's not that crazy all right hold on let's let's keep going you haven't read this dude's absolute [ \_\_ ] take Well yeah if you would like to link it to me I I don't I I only have the technical letter okay link it you link it ah there we go all right so let's look at this by Matt Mullen in the community word Camp it has to be said and repeated WP engine is not WordPress my own mother was confused and thought WP engine was an official thing what is your mother doing on the internet playing around with WP engine okay I got a lot of questions for her why weren't you just managing it for her Mr WP Superman okay I figured that your mother wouldn't even would be would be you know layered away from this this kind of seems like a strange this seems like a strange this seems like the world's strangest argument I would not rely on my mother for accurate information about anything when it comes to technical stuff uh their branding marketing advertising entire promise to customers is that they're giving giving you WordPress but they're not they're also profiting off the confusion I spoke yesterday at word Camp about Lee whitlinger and uh Silver Lake at a private Equity Firm with 120b assets under management can hollow out an open source Community to summarize they don't they do about a half billion in revenue on top of Wordpress and contribute Back 40 hours a week automatic is similar size and contributes back 3,915 hours a week okay okay okay wow this is a this whoa they're both sending seasoned assist letters oh my gosh oh my gosh this the the the this is getting even deeper which is that not someone that that WP engine's like cease and desist and Matt Wallen WG was like Udo reverse and re cease and desist their cease and desist dude this is crazy this is so this is insan this is insanity okay so it is saying right here that uh this is wordpress.org which is the uh five for the future pledge so he wasn't exaggerating when he said this right here they are contributing 40 hours a week automatic is contributing approximately 4,000 hours a week is what they said so they are so it is it is fair what he said in this um this this statement right here uh today I would like to offer or offer a specific technical example of how they break the trust and sanctity of of our software's promise to users and save themselves money so they can extract more profits from you let's see a WordPress is a Content management system and and the content is sacred I mean I me you really all WordPress sites are would we use the term sacred really like hollowed can can we agree that that that that feels a little maybe like a a little a little intense here all right every change you make to every page every post is tracked in a revision system just like the Wikipedia this means just like the Wikipedia this means that if you make a mistake you can always undo it it also means if you're trying to figure out why something is on a page you can precisely you can see precisely the history and edits that led to it the revisions are stored in our database this is very important at the core of its user let's see of the user promise of protecting your data and and it's why WordPress is architected and designed to never losing anything WP engine turns this off they disable revisions because it costs them more money to store the history of the changes in the database and don't want to spend that to protect your content it strikes to the very heart of Wordpress does and they shatter it the Integrity of your content if you make a mistake you have no way to get your content back breaking the core promise of what WordPress does which is manage and protect your content they do daily backups oh not true okay so I was going to say hey this is really bad I could actually see like I I could see that I could see why this is bad but you're saying [ \_\_ ] and they they do daily backups okay so they don't do every last backup they don't do every change backup like a revision history they do daily backups apparently it's disabled by default but you can enable it via support it's a bit of a goofy argu this chat is sacred this chat is sacred this chat is in fact sacred I I agree if you know like if my wife came in and said that I had to leave her or chat obviously I would leave her and keep chat because of how sacred and special this this chat is here's a screenshot of their support page saying they disable this across 1.5 million WordPress and sols has WordPress revisions disabled by default if you need more extensive revision uh management system we recommend using a third-party editing system rather than relying on WordPress revisions why I okay so I I will call out WP engine in this one fact assuming their claims to how much they make is accurate meaning they make a decent amount of money right they make they're closer to a billion than they are a million that why don't they put people on this and try to fix the problem within WordPress to make revisions work perfectly for their system like why aren't they working on that I'm a little confused by this this argument why wouldn't they want to do that I'm not saying that this isn't I think the importance that they're putting on revisions is kind of wild I think this is a really bad argument but I do agree with this one lonus don't break user space this is a really great this is kind of the heart of the argument I'm making which is you should not break user space what's funny is none of what Matt is saying here is mentioned in the legal letter okay well that's good we're going to we're going to look at this cuz this is just like this is so bizarre revisions can only be enabled by contacting support revisions cannot be enabled in the WordPress config.php or PHP any files uh I have an Audi I don't know what happened there as this uh will be overwritten at the server level uh if you migrate a site with existing revisions that you would like preserved reach out to support to have our revisions enabled support can help you enable three revisions for your post to start revision should not exceed five okay so they're doing this as a cost saving thing right that's what that's I guess that's how I read it right can we all agree this is how you're reading it they do this to save money because keeping stuff around costs money okay hey um hey hey I dude I will literally ban you if you say I prefer Drupal that's crazy that's actually crazy to say they say it's slowing down your site but what they mean is they want to avoid paying to store data we tested revisions on all of the recommended hosts on wordpress.org and none disabled revisions by default why is WP engine the only one that does they are strip mining the WordPress ecosystem giving our users a crappier experience so they can make more money that sounds a little intense I I wouldn't say they're strip mining right doesn't that seem a little isn't that like a little a little intense okay so it does they're trying to make money and they're trying to be more efficient and what they're attempting to say which to be completely fair if they have 1.5 million users on WP engine and those users are happy without the revision what they're saying is that they intentionally don't have on an option that most people don't use is that fair and that the people that do have it on they actually don't need a lot of it it does feel like Mullen Mullen wag is is yapping a bit I feel like that's kind of what I'm gathering here because if this was if revisions were that important then you would either think WP engine would have it on because their customers are demanding it or two their customers would leave and go to a platform that has it they are I mean that's the thing is they are let the free market decide right the free market is deciding because the free market is using them that's why I said nice wording earlier yeah I see yeah because they're taking away something in principle but potentially not something that's used in practice that often yeah somehow I have this strong feeling like Mullen wag must have some sort of product or feature that he created that people aren't using and he's claiming as the Cornerstone and he's upset about it that's like the only it seems like there's some sort of weird thing that he's this it's it sounds like Salesforce CEO saying Microsoft's co-pilot sucks because they're launching their own none of the WordPress instances I admin use revisions yeah WP engine paid 75,000 to be a super sponsor last week when this all went down at word uh word Camp so they were currently paying 75,000 and then they got that destroyed okay if you're a customer of Wordpress engine you should contact their support immediately to give you at least three revisions they allow turned on so you don't accidentally lose something important ideally they should go unlimited remember that you the customer hold the power there is nothing without money you give them and let's see and as you vote with your dollars consider literally any other WordPress host as WP engine is the only one we found to completely disable revisions I find this to be a really wild point to start with okay I'm just GNA I'm I'm going to throw this out here to have multiple lawyers get involved and ceasing to assist Le letters flying Every Which Way It Is Wild that the core argument is over revisions or not revisions and claiming that having or not having revisions is tearing the community apart honestly can I can I be can I be honest here I always thought the community of Wordpress was the fact that you could sell plugins and that truly created the developer Community around WordPress am I wrong on that one I always thought it was templates plugins like woo Commerce all these different ones I'm a full-time WordPress Dev and I literally don't give one [ \_\_ ] about revision yeah themes too yeah I thought that was the entire point I thought this was truly where all of yeah okay no plugins and templates yeah see that's what I thought I thought this is what created really the strong Community was that all these developers flocked to Matt owns woo Commerce yeah see again I I just figured that's what caused all this is that all these developers could could could uh flock towards WordPress and you could make money as just a dude in Iowa right you could could literally live in the worst state in the Union Ohio and make money flock Tua yeah like a flock Tua it you can make money on WordPress lots of it yeah so that's what I was really confused by so this whole argument like if they disallowed thirdparty plugins I get that like that to to me I actually I actually would fully agree that they were trying to like kind of tear down the core cuz when I think of Wordpress I think of the community like that's what my buddy is a WordPress Devon lives in Ohio confirmed yeah now that is an actual argument that that feels like an actual argument this does not feel like a good argument I at least I feel a bit confused as to to why this would necessitate you attempting to destroy a company which is like not really a good idea okay let's get back to the first cease and assist I assume this is the first one from WP engine to automatic during the calls on September 17th and 19th for instance automatic CFO Mark Davies told a WP engine board member that an automatic would go to war if WP engine did not agree to pay its competitor automatic a significant percentage of its gross revenues tens of millions of dollars in fact on an ongoing basis what were they paying it for though I guess that's my confusing my confusion part is what service did automatic render hold on does automatic have some sort of revision as a service that you pay for oh it's for the wp trademark confusion then then what was that article about them not being okay that's weird okay next send oh okay Mr Davies suggested the payment ostensibly would be for a license to use certain trademarks like WordPress even though WP engine needs no such license WP engine uses uses of those trademarks to describe its services as all companies in this space do are fair use under settled trademark law and consistent with WordPress own guidelines is that true I don't know if that's true because you can't create something if I'm not mistaken under the Linux trademark rules you cannot create Linux Educators as a website you can actually get taken down and get a cease and deist letter uh JavaScript for rust devs got a cease and desist letters from Oracle for using the term JavaScript yes before they specifically said you were free to use WP but not WordPress ah okay so this is kind of like the feris this is kind of like the feris thing you can use the crab but you can't use the rust uh logo okay Malle yeah exactly it's wild to me that Oracle owns JavaScript yeah they've owned it for a long long time I love dude I love this right now that everybody is up in arms about Oracle owning uh JavaScript just because some Dev said that they owned JavaScript and now videos are coming out about it it's like bro they've been owning it for like the last 20 years where the hell have you been you're actually now upset that someone's that that you that F dude come on like it literally meant nothing to you at all until some article on Twitter said it and now you're pissed off stop with the NPC Behavior dude it's like the most NPC behavior of all time that people are all up in arms like the entire Twitter space was all up in in arms for this crap dude it's so it's just so stupid uh uh this is lifted from the trademark page uh he uh or the abbreviation WP is not covered by the WordPress trademarks but please don't use it in a way that confuses people for example many people think WP engine is WordPress engine and officially associate WordPress which it's not they have never once donated to the WordPress Foundation despite making billions on Revenue okay so this is the contentious argument okay yeah to be completely fair when I heard WP engine I thought WordPress engine and so I guess I'd have to see the exact quotation which is that don't use it in a way that confuses people this is can we all agree that WP engine clearly stands for a WordPress engine and that you would easily confuse it the confusion is in the eye of the beholders like this is yes that is the exact wording I mean to me this seems like at least they have a partial argument for it but how hasn't WP engine been around in my head head they've been around for like over a decade so why today it kind of feels a little weird that they're now just doing that Matt added that language after the cease and toist letters oh oh it was only updated recent wow this is super crazy this is wild that they even can you update trademarks like that can you like are you allowed to do that because if I make a business it's within the trademark rules then you update the trademark to say it's not after I've been well established can you even do that I have to assume that they can't do that if you own them why not because when you own them you allowed somebody to use them in such a way and then when they got really big you then changed the rules so the company and everything was created based on a set of rules that have changed that kind of feels like this isn't uh it's not even a rug pole it's that they agreed and created a company under a different regime this almost feels like expost factos than anything else it's like being able to do that founder of WP engine Jason Cohen is an absolute boss whatever side he is on is probably correct okay trade law is complex yeah trademark law is really really yeah yeah technically they didn't defend their trademark yeah they they did not defend it for a long time sounds like capitalism it sounds like anything where someone owns part of something that sounds like Wizards of the Coast uh tried with d and d license right yeah it's it this is feeling very similar like after a wellestablished product that's been around for a long time and then you attempt to sue them it feels completely like I don't think you're allowed to do that I'm pretty sure you lose that argument yeah if you don't aggressively defend your trademark you basically lose it this is true as far as I can tell this is a very true statement this is why Nintendo does what Nintendo does which is that you you they they like every single thing that is used they like go really intense at now I don't know how true this is I you know I don't know anything about trademark law but that's the justifying excuse I've heard for why Nintendo does what it does is that they they go intense Nintendo is suing po world that's right they are suing po World they are automatic CFO insisted that WP engine provide its response to this demand immediately and later on on the day of the keynote followed up with an email reiterating a claim a claimed need for WP engine to concede to the demands before Matt makes his WC us keynote at 3:45 p.m. ptd PDT today damn that's wild in parallel and throughout September 19th and 20th Mr Mullen wag embarked on a series of harassing text messages and calls to WP engines board member and also at CEO threaten that if WP engine did not agree to pay off prior to the start of Mr Mullen wg's live streamed keynote address at 3 345 on September 20th he would go nuclear nuclear n nuclear on WP engine including by smearing its name disparaging its directors and corporate officers and banning WP engine from WordPress community events here's one of Mr Mullen W's threatening text if I'm going to make the case to WP Community about why we're Banning wpe I need to do it in my talk tomorrow you're delaying is just trying to remove that bro put it in writing like rule one of extortion is don't text extortion rule two of extortion is don't email extortion oh it gets much better don't write text that will be read in deposition dude is that not a fact of life all right Mr Mullen W further stated that he already created slides for his keynote speech taking aims at WP engine and its investors and would present them to World Camp attendees and to millions of others via live stream on YouTube did he really have millions did he really damn bro is more popular than kaiset crazy man that guy should stream on Twitch crazy if his financial demands were not met all right on oop I missed I missed this top one we got a few thousand viewers on the live stream and the video on YouTube can get millions of views when we promote them wow I have 14 slides so far working on title for the talk how private Equity can hollow out and Destroy open source communities a story in four parts I got quotes from current and former employees some may even stand up and speak as well Mr Mullen continued to send a barrage of texts throughout the evening of September 19th in the morning of September 20 attempting to pressure WP engine into capitulating to automatics Financial demands just called out should I run these slides or not is next week a negotiation on the percent or it happening at all I'm not going to be able to walk it back I know that this is the nuclear option it sets us down a specific path okay well interesting cuz they're saying that he threatened to go nuclear whereas he's just recognizing that this is kind of like a once we go down this path we can't go back a little different I can see the language being a little different but overall this guy's stupid also the I'm curious if there's any responses back or is it just one giant wall of text also good for whoever was getting these messages and not responding to them what a smart smart decision here are these high schoolers or CEOs nobody knows when WP engine CEO and board member offered to speak with Mr Mullen W the following week to have a business discussion Mr Mullen W refused inste electing to manipulate WP engine into pay paying automatic for using fear-based pressure tactics tied to his keynote address that afternoon they're not showing the other texts which are a little bit I don't like them not showing the full context that's all I'm saying I don't like the non- full context here okay so if you're saying next week that's saying no so I will proceed with scorched Earth nuclear approach you can't be this stupid you just got to know not to do this to wpe thank you for the clarity it gives me time to work on things and hone my message oh my gosh this guy is such a doofus uh in the final minutes leading up to his keynote Mr Mullen wag sent out one last missive a photo of the world Camp audience wanting to hear a speech with the message that he could shift gears and turn his talk into a just a Q&A if WP engine agreed to pay up oh they must have inverted the image so you couldn't see anybody's face literally I'm waiting for them to finish the raffle so my talk can start I can make it just a Q&A all right number two Mr Mullen W carries out his threats during World Camp keynote and thereafter when WP engine refused to capitulate to automatics astronomical and uh extortionate monetary demands and Mr Mullen wag made good on his threats specifically during the keynote address and world at World Camp us on the afternoon of September 20th Mr Mullen W made a series of false and disparaging statements about WP engine and its investors claiming that WP engine is a company that wants to feed off the WordPress Community or ecosystem without giving anything back I mean to be completely Fair they kind of are can I I feel like that's pretty you can at least say that that if if if they're effectiv as he said that effectively the same size as automatic they're giving 40 hours back and these ones are giving 4,000 hours back I think that's pretty Prett Fair they're kind of feeding off a little bit here that feels like a really that that that does feel like a pretty straight answer here between the two they're a they offer hosting and awesome customer service but that's not giving back to the community they only the largest free plugin in WP okay that those are all good things but they're still not WordPress itself I I can see that okay I could be wrong I could be wrong in the sense that giving creating really amazing WP plugins constitute giving back giving back is not a required absolutely that is fair but if you make a lot of money off of an open source Community you would think part of it would be to give back I think I've given neovim a couple thousand dollars and then got sponsors and stuff to neovim for neovim conf that gave back money to neovim I think overall I've been a part of or given directly back to neovim near the 20,000 Mark so yeah I mean I'm not like I'm not making $500 million I'm not a $500 million a year company here people uh several order of magnitudes lower than that but nonetheless just $2 million a month just two just am measly two what but I'm just saying like you can always this is not a hard thing to do is giving you know wait you're not what is this [ \_\_ ] um it's not too hard to make some of those things happen even being slightly smaller we thought uh you were a billion dollar startup well the startup makes a lot of money the startup is a billion dollars okay people suggesting that WP engine employees may be fired for speaking up supporting Mr Mullen Waker supporting WordPress and offering to provide support in finding them new jobs if that were to occur hold on suggesting that WP and boys may be fired for speaking up oh okay interesting trying to bribe people out okay interesting stating that every WP engine customer should watch his speech and then not renew their contracts with WP engine when those contracts are up for Renewal claiming that if the current WP engine customers switch to a different host they might get faster performance okay so that one that one might get you in trouble that one might get you in trouble for sure so far I don't necessarily see how this one is going to get you in trouble so far this one could get you in trouble alleging that WP engine is misusing the trademark using let's see including by using WP in its name unclear claiming that WP engine's investors doesn't give a dang about open source ideals but just to be fair WP engine does have really large free plugins that help people do a good job what what what are the plugins that WP engine creates just so I understand they don't give a dang investors indeed do not give a dang about ideals exactly the only ideals they they care about what is AF C Can someone say it in a more plugins are marketing pipelines one music Bang music oh Advanced custom Fields okay I don't know what that is what's insane uh Tech news from today this is Advanced custom Fields okay they built yoast I think what is so okay I'll have to look at that I don't really know what Advanced custom Fields is but it sounds it sounds exciting H very interesting if Mullen W statement during his keynote address at WP see at World Camp us convention were demonstrably false and self-serving uh as just a few examples contrary to Mullen wg's statement that WP engine does not contribute to his narrow and self-serving definition of Wordpress Community WP engine has been deeply dedicated to advancing the use and Adoption of Wordpress through Innovation investment and active Community involvement WP engine has contributed tens of millions of dollars in ongoing support for the broader community Through events sponsorships and the development of educational resources including sponsorship of world camps worldwide and producing decode educating and empowering the WordPress community Through content like WordPress Roundup and building the WordPress series hosting funding and actively maintaining multiple open source projects uh okay there you go Advanced custom Fields WP graphql fajs is that named after the devil bro you're not helping yourself FAL uh uh within the ecosystem used by millions of websites let's see around the world and producing informative webinars podcast and tutorials even considering Mr mullen's incorrect statement that contribution is only based on hours worked in uh contributors to five for the future Mr Mullen wg's falsely stated WP engine is failing on this metric in reality WP engine is ranked 30 out of 189 in hours contributed and 16 out of 189 in contribut contributors significantly outpacing multiple other contributors relative to our Revenue this does make it more confusing this does make things a little bit more confusing because like how do you measure like it sure maybe you're not giving man- hours but sponsoring sponsoring events and all that that is giving back in some sense to the community but usually when you sponsor an event you're not sponsoring to give back to a community can we be can we all agree to that can we all agree that sponsorships of an event yeah I I yes I know that f is the Doctor Who Sold a cell to the to the devil I know that but still typically you sponsor something because you believe you're getting something back out of it not because you're sponsoring because you you're feeling you're feeling extra charitable to the to the world yeah we do podcasts yeah podcasts I mean bro every every dude between the ages of 18 to 22 does a podcast you're not selling me here ask for Mr Mullen wgs claimed that WP engine is misusing the WordPress trademark that too is false and reflects profound misunderstanding of both trademark law and WordPress foundations trademark policy that's pretty good first WP engine's use of WP has explicitly permitted Ed by WordPress foundation's trademark policy the abbreviation WP is not covered by the WordPress trademarks and you are free to use it in any way you see fit oh that is much different than the verbiage we just got done reading so they did so this was can someone link me to the new updated terms of services cuz I would like to see the new updated terms of service all right so I'm going to skip over to the other ceas and desist letter because I feel like we kind of I feel like I kind of get the gist of this one WP does not appear on here WP yeah WP does not appear on here on that one it must be something else there we go there we go the abbrev the abbreviation WP is not covered by the WordPress trademarks but please don't use it in any way that confuses people okay that is just that is simply not the verbiage that was in the cease and desist so one of two things are happening does anyone have a way back way back machine link does anyone have a a word way uh a way back machine to see if there's something to it yeah that's fair yeah look at that oh what a damning oh look at that flip zoom in September 12th 2010 through the 24th of September 2024 that means it was changed on September 24th g g that's crazy oh my gosh the abbreviation WP is not covered by WordPress trademarks but please don't use it in a way that confuses people for example Le many people think WP engine is WordPress engine and officially associated with WordPress which is not they have never once even donated no way does it actually say that oh my gosh I didn't even read the rest it does say that oh dude this guy's vindictive the man's vindictive wow I wonder what went up his but dude I don't know but it had to hurt whatever it was that is crazy Word Perfect is crying in the corner my mom used Word Perfect on the on the blue screen on the blue screen Windows 3.1 what a roller coaster I know I'm I came into this thinking oh uh WP engine is probably like overreacting it's going to be like a slander case and then it just kept getting worse and now I think that this matte guy like right now I'm not seeing anything in here that shows that this matte fella is is looking good we're not even done okay let's let's let's read the WordPress Foundation let's read the other side let's just make sure we have the other side for a little bit at least dear Mi uh Miss Brunner we represent automatic Incorporated and woo Commerce Incorporated collectively our client in connection with intellectual property manners as you know our client install let's see owns all intellectual property rights globally in and to the world famous woo Commerce and woo trademarks and the exclusive commercial rights from the WordPress Foundation to use enforce and sulic the world famous bro just love saying the word world famous dude Obama Obama giving Obama a medal right now world famous WordPress trademark among others and all other uh and all other Associated intellectual property rights we are writing about the wp engines web hosting and related services that improperly use our clients WordPress and woocommerce trademarks in their marketing we understand that our client has contacted you about securing a proper license to use its trademarks yet no such agreement had been reached you did extort them even if you're right you extorted them right like let's just pretend that that they're completely fair in their ability to do that whether you like tradem marker law or not and they were very able to do that they would have calmly sent this letter to begin with and they would have been quiet in public and been able to crush him in court this on the other hand was just actual extortion as such your blatant and widespread unlicensed use of our client's trademark has infringed on our clients rights and Confused customers into believing falsely that WP engine is authorized endorsed or sponsored by or otherwise Affiliated or associated with our client wp's unauthorized use of our client trademarks also dilutes their rights tarnishes their reputations and otherwise harms the Goodwill they have established in their famous and well-known trademarks and has enabled WP engine to fairly compete with our client leading to WP engines unjust enrichment according to our client in let's see accordingly our client insists that you immediately stop all un unauthorized use of their trademark uh please find the additional details below it won't stand up in court I I don't know if that's true or not I have no idea honestly I don't know enough about trademark law but it's it's been uh it's been legal since 2018 oh damn oh damn talk about getting wrecked is this going to be a de nuts joke I'm always curious ious If this just going to turn into a de nuts joke at the end yeah well is this registered trademark in Brazil it's in Brazil that doesn't sound world famous that sounds Brazil mentioned is that Brazil there's a Us registration as well okay Brazil mentioned can we get a Brazil mention though let's go world famous world famous Brazil all right as as noted above our client owns all intellectually property rights in and to the world famous woo Commerce and woo trademarks and the exclusive commercial rights to the world famous dude brother is Obama himself so hard others let's see among others and all Associated intellectual property rights in connection with software for internet publishing and management website content website development and other related goods and services these rights include the following us in let's see incontestable Federal trademark registration right there and there and there and there and there cool cool job all right so I think I I think I generally get the idea right all right let's let's do a little bit more looking here I'm going to read a little bit more I I think I have the idea but I want to just make make sure I really get it WP engine promotes its Service as bringing WordPress to the masses okay that seems fair in reality WP engine brings almost zero aspect of Wordpress to the world it claims to have contributed 40 hours a week to the WordPress see this one while by contrast automatic is contributing 4,000 hours a week to Wordpress see that one instead WP engine's entire business model is predicated on the on using our clients trademarks uh particularly WordPress woocommerce and woo to mislead customers okay so I I'd be curious how they're saying it's using these two I guess you could make some vague argument about them using the word WordPress as a trademark but I just don't believe it but I'm curious how they're using woo and woo Commerce to to mislead uh consumers into believing there is an association between WP engine and automatic even a cursory review of the wp engine's website shows numerous examples of such in uh misappropriation see exhibit B attached here too all right what's exhibit B where's where's exhibit be bro did you not do we not do we not upload I don't think I don't think they have exhibit be attached imagine if Oracle decided to do that they do they they've taken down websites Oracle has taken down JavaScript for rust let's see if I can find it really one second dang I was hoping I can see it I know it was last year the year before I can't remember what it was but um someone got someone got uh sued of effectively by or cease and desisted by Oracle don't leak anything don't worry I'm not leaking anything dang okay all right I was hoping to see I was hoping to see it all right whatever uh multiple uses of world famous has llm generated season to CIS fbes you think so oh here it is yeah wa we're already reading this one right here my two cents unless automatic owns the wp trademark I can see this having zero Merit still if this lawsuit would somehow still win it would mean each and every company offering WP WordPress hosting or mention it would do best to stop or can get sued the same way yeah dude gley coming ggle coming in just clutch right now what a good gurgly one dude some this dude he has such good takes this guy has such good takes every time I read every time I read his stuff I always love his takes it's so good the issue is not about WP the issue is there there oh here you go I just received a legal notice from Oracle America to rename my company uh for rust for JS devs because they own the trademark to JavaScript yeah like I said I know we joke about it remember when everybody remember when everybody was really upset at me for being upset at rust around their trademark policy do you know do you know why I get upset do do you do you understand why I get upset about trademark policy like when a company when a foundation starts enforcing trademark or say they're going to enforce it it's crazy and so once this happens it happens everywhere and that's why I would personally be very very careful and that's why I made such a big stink about rust for type or rust doing its own trademark stuff is this exact reason is that it starts off and you're like dude they're not going to do it why not why wouldn't they do it right like who said says they won't do it no one says right no one says that what if Amazon were to enforce the prime trademark Prime would be a lot harder because it's a it's it's just a word right it's just a word you can use for anything and so it already has a meaning right that's like you can't you can't like trademark the word printer now if you had a video service or a shipping service and you named it Prime then you'd get hit because it's like in the same category right right he's not actually going to stab me says the stabbing victim I know anyways we're already reading this right now okay so this is what this is how I this is my at least my initial understanding of this is that one the word WordPress foundation.org should have never gotten involved in this like number one wordpress.org to getting getting involved in this type of dispute was a real real bad decision obviously Matt must either own wordpress.org or has the ability to effectively enforce this this was stupid of them second specifically calling out this in your trademark policy just makes you look Petty and childish third changing it on the 24th the day you're sending your cease and assist that doesn't look good right that looks good to nobody the thing is not only did WP engine create a company they made money they trademarked themselves they were able to keep on going and they went for decade lit like literal decades oh that's not what that that means oh sorry but it was just changed just recently as in they they just changed it like at any moment it's malicious that's the dates when the sites was indexed okay my bad my bad on that one they were either released it was it was shortly afterwards changed I guess the thing is I don't know what the exact date they changed from this one which is the abbreviation WP is not covered by the WordPress trademarks and you are free to use it any way you see fit versus this one which is actually calling out WP WP engine check the links where are the links for can you can you hand me the links where your links in here I'd like to I'd like to see the links because I actually did want to see the exhibit headless WordPress headless WordPress the all-in-one headless platform for radically fast sites okay this picture is terrifying by the way I really got to turn off that that's just it just makes people scary it just makes them scary WordPress hosting for small businesses okay what's on I got to check out oh there it is there it is think of a managed WordPress host as a dedicated technical assistant that powers your website isn't that what WP engine is a managed WordPress host like isn't that like word for word what WP engine is I may have acally pinned kekw I did I pinned kekw let me unpin this by using Wordpress as a descriptor is a violation of the trademark yeah that's I I think that I think that will end up being BS right it has to be BS according to us PTO WordPress Foundation filed trademark managed WordPress on July 12th if this trademark is granted every WordPress host worldwide would would and could be subject to litigation from automatic well how the hell do you refer to Wordpress then because WordPress is not just a company it's also a piece of software like how if you created something that hosts said presses of the word how would you ever say it I think the problem is that they have products listed as WordPress X okay that that at least yeah that's the whole Linux problem that's the whole Linux trademark thing is you can't have something called Linux experts.com you can have Experts of linux.com but you can't have the the other way around yes I do I I I do ignore I do ignore YouTube yes this is very true all right well I guess we won't know what's going to happen for a little bit but I'm curious what the next I I I I am actually genuinely curious what the next thing is I'm actually really curious if if you work in WordPress and you use either of these two companies I'm actually very curious what you think leave a comment I actually want to hear about that just because it is a such a it's such a weird thing right like I I because I don't care about Twitter I don't care about these these these cease and Tois letters what does this do to people that are using Wordpress what do you actually think are you going to change any of your habits are you on Matt's side are you on whoever the other guy's side is do you think because I know woo Commerce has like a really great reputation for being great pieces of software bertron citing himself well don't worry bertron is pretty much terrible at being a mod so I can't wait for this the WordPress drama is the most exciting WordPress has been in the last 5 years but at the same time the most boring thing ever yep that see that seems is about right I think this has killed me uh killed it for me to use WordPress anymore ooh ooh damn crazy crazy irrelevant just clickbait it's not really clickbait the result of this could in fact endanger every single company that hosts WordPress to being litigated by automatic it's actually a pretty big thing and there's tons upon tons of small businesses that just rely on WordPress like there's actually there's a lot of Downstream wait people use WordPress most of the internet is probably still WordPress pess yes you're safe all right the name 43% of the internet is WordPress honestly I wouldn't be surprised if this number is true or not like I they won't get managed WordPress granted if people uh who have been using who've been using the terms uh commercially dispute in the filing dude it'd be crazy if they did Matt built WordPress and runs automatic and he's trying to essentially nuke his largest competitor that's kind of I mean that's how I'm reading it is this is just predatory practics that's that's what I'm reading is that the the the Bros unhinged it just feels crazy I can't believe this is actually happening a Jen, The WordPress Situation Is Wild, ThePrimeTime, 01j8wdzt149gqbfdm6p3raw1dd.