This Week in WordPress #309  ## Metadata - Author: [[WP Builds]] - Full Title: This Week in WordPress #309 - Category: #articles - Document Note: --- tags: [#WordPress, #community, #ecosystem, #open-source, #gender-equality, #accessibility, #contribution, #future-planning] - #WordPress - #community - #open-source - #gender-equality - #ecosystem Author: Nathan Wrigley & Panel Source: This Week in WordPress Podcast #309 Reference: [This Week in WordPress](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzeOm-8DDiM) date created: 2024-10-01 14:30 --- # Title: Navigating the Current WordPress Ecosystem: Contributions, Community, and Future ## Table of Contents: 1. [📝 Summary](#summary) 2. [📖 Main Content](#main-content) 1. [🗒️ Notes](#notes) 3. [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#learning-styles-assessment) 4. [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#accessibility-assessment) 5. [🌍 DEIB (Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and Belonging) Assessment](#deib-diversity-equity-inclusion-and-belonging-assessment) 6. [✅ Action Items](#action-items) 7. [🔮 Future Research](#future-research) 8. [🎯 Conclusion](#conclusion) ### References: - [WordCamp US - Ecosystem Thinking](https://ma.tt/2024/09/wordcamp-us-ecosystem-thinking/) - [A Call for Change: Gender Equality in WordPress](https://wpincludes.me/) - [WP Accessibility Day 2024](https://wpaccessibility.day) ## 📝 Summary: The WordPress community is undergoing critical discussions about how contributions are measured and valued, how companies engage with the ecosystem, and the ongoing tension between open-source ethics and commercial interests. There's a spotlight on inclusivity, gender equality in leadership, and making WordPress more accessible for all. ## 📖 Main Content: The conversation centers around the balance of contributing back to the open-source project. Matt Mullenweg’s blog post on "Ecosystem Thinking" sparked a debate, particularly criticizing WP Engine’s lack of proportional contributions. This led to a legal back-and-forth, with cease-and-desist letters from both WP Engine and Automattic. Discussions also touched on gender equality within WordPress businesses and the upcoming WP Accessibility Day. ### 🗒️ Notes - **Contributions Debate**: The idea of nourishing the community through time or financial support. - **WP Engine Critique**: WP Engine was highlighted as contributing disproportionately less than other companies, sparking legal tensions. - **Transparency**: Calls for more transparency in contribution reporting, especially from large companies. - **Gender Equality**: Surveys show a lack of women in leadership roles, with efforts underway to mentor women in WordPress. - **Accessibility**: WP Accessibility Day promotes making websites more inclusive for all, featuring discussions from industry leaders. ## 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment: 1. **Visual Learners**: - **Present**: Discussions use visual aids like pie charts and graphics to explain gender equality statistics. - **Improve**: More infographics on contributions and the history of WordPress governance would be helpful. 2. **Aural Learners**: - **Present**: Discussions available through podcasts (This Week in WordPress). - **Improve**: Offering accessible audio versions of survey findings. 3. **Verbal Learners**: - **Present**: Articles and blog posts rich in descriptive language and reasoning. - **Improve**: More analogies explaining complex issues like contributions and legal standing. 4. **Logical Learners**: - **Present**: Structured debates on contribution fairness and legal transparency. - **Improve**: More analytical breakdowns of the contribution metrics would help logical learners. 5. **Social Learners**: - **Present**: WP Meetups and WordCamps encourage group learning and community discussions. - **Improve**: Additional small group sessions to discuss contribution fairness could be helpful. 6. **Solitary Learners**: - **Present**: Reflection prompts are given to think about your contributions and what it means to the ecosystem. - **Improve**: Providing more personal exercises, such as logging contributions in dashboards, can benefit solitary learners. ## 📊 Accessibility Assessment: - **Screen Reader Compatibility**: Ensure all pie charts, images, and graphs in the survey results have proper alt-text. - **Improve**: Improve keyboard navigation for the WP Accessibility Day website and ensure all links are clearly labeled. ## 🌍 DEIB (Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and Belonging) Assessment: - **Cultural Relevance**: The gender equality survey highlights representation gaps, and efforts are being made to mentor underrepresented groups. - **Inclusive Language**: Gender-neutral terms are being used in the mentorship program, and more inclusive job descriptions are encouraged. - **Representation**: The WordPress leadership landscape needs more diversity in terms of gender and background. - **Psychological Safety**: Efforts like WP Accessibility Day help create inclusive learning spaces for all abilities. ## ✅ Action Items: 1. **Increase Transparency**: Continue to advocate for a clearer reporting system on contributions, particularly from larger companies. 2. **Boost Mentorship Programs**: Support initiatives like WP Includes Me to help more women and underrepresented groups reach leadership positions. 3. **Improve Accessibility**: Promote best practices at WP Accessibility Day to make WordPress sites more inclusive. ## 🔮 Future Research: - Investigate the long-term impact of mentorship programs on gender equality in WordPress leadership. - Explore new models for reporting and tracking open-source contributions across various roles and contributions. ## 🎯 Conclusion: The WordPress community is at a crossroads between open-source ideals and commercial growth. With a focus on inclusivity, gender equality, and accessibility, ongoing discussions aim to shape a fairer, more transparent ecosystem. Short Summary for [This Week in WordPress #309](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzeOm-8DDiM) by [Merlin](https://merlin.foyer.work/) Week 309: WP Engine vs Automatic - Gender Equality Survey and Hippo Highlights [00:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzeOm-8DDiM&t=7) Discussion about WP Engine vs Automattic and related events [03:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzeOm-8DDiM&t=181) Discussion about the happenings of the week in WordPress [07:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzeOm-8DDiM&t=427) Courtney, an open source developer Advocate, discusses transparency in contributing efforts [09:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzeOm-8DDiM&t=559) Discussion on plug-in companies, marketplaces, and co-founding a company. [13:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzeOm-8DDiM&t=818) Discussion on new fork of WordPress [15:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzeOm-8DDiM&t=926) Highlighting sponsorships and upcoming Black Friday deals [19:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzeOm-8DDiM&t=1153) Unique Challenges of Organizing WordPress Events in Australia [21:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzeOm-8DDiM&t=1296) Call for volunteers for upcoming event [25:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzeOm-8DDiM&t=1524) Companies reinvesting into projects for community benefit. [27:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzeOm-8DDiM&t=1645) Discussion on corporate responsibility and contribution to WordPress community [31:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzeOm-8DDiM&t=1891) Discussion on funding for OpenJS Foundation and limitations on funding contributors in open source [33:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzeOm-8DDiM&t=2016) Discussion on how open source projects handle wins and losses [37:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzeOm-8DDiM&t=2275) Defining what counts as contributing to the WordPress project [40:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzeOm-8DDiM&t=2414) Understanding contributions to the WordPress community for the Five for the Future initiative. [44:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzeOm-8DDiM&t=2656) Importance of a more holistic picture of contributions [46:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzeOm-8DDiM&t=2764) Proposal for a system to track and reward contributions to WordPress [49:53](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzeOm-8DDiM&t=2993) Focus on automating tasks and finding ways to pull in information efficiently. [51:38](https://www. - Document Tags: [[Matt Mullenweg]] [[open source corporate contribution]] [[wordpress]] [[wpdrama]] [[wp engine]] - Summary: Another week, and we’re bringing you the latest WordPress news from the last seven days, and what a week it was! -We mainly focus this week on the updates to the Block Edit... NO WE DON'T. There's really only one story this week and it's got so many parts: The dispute between Automattic and WP Engine. -What happened when and by whom? -How does this affect WP Engine users? -Is there a solution without the lawyers getting involved too deeply? -What does the community think the outcome should be? -If you've had enough of all that, there's always images of cute cats, dogs and sheep to restore your calm...! There’s a lot more than this, so check out the post... 00:00 Discussion of the week's events in WordPress. 06:15 Cameron Jones: Entrepreneur, web developer, plugin founder. 14:30 Dividing stories between WordPress.org and WP Engine. 16:16 Black Friday deals page on WP Builds. 25:17 Companies aim to reinvest resources back into projects. 28:16 Discussion on moral responsibility and profit-sharing guidelines. 35:2... - URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzeOm-8DDiM [Music] it's time for this week in WordPress episode number 309 entitled the week there was actual news it was recorded on Monday the 30th of September 2024 my name is Nathan Wrigley and I will be joined by five count them five fabulous guests we have Michelle frette Cameron Jones Courtney Roberts James giru and taco vshot we're here to talk about well more or less the entire time we talk about the story about WP Engine versus automatic wordpress.org Matt mullenweg we have Matt in the comments giving his side of the events as well but that dominates what we talk about today but we do provide a little bit of Light Relief in the form of cats dogs and sheep and we also get right in at the end about the gender equality survey WP accessibility day which is coming up and we look at a teeny tiny little hippo as well it's all coming up next on this week in WordPress this episode of the wp bills podcast is brought to you by GoDaddy Pro the home of manage WordPress hosting that includes free domain SSL and 247 support bundle that with the Hub by GoDaddy Pro to unlock more free benefits to manage multiple sites in one place invoice clients and get 30% of new purchases find out more at go. mewp builds and by blue host redefine your web hosting experience with Blu host Cloud managed WordPress hosting that comes with lightning fast websites 100% Network uptime and 247 priority support with Bluehost the possibilities are out of this world experience it today at bluehost.com slcl and by omnisend do you sell your stuff online then meet omnisend yes that omnisend the email and SMS tool that helps you make 73 bucks for every dollar spent the one that's so good it's almost boring hate the excitement of roller coaster sales prefer a steady line going up try omnisend today at omnis send.com and by memberful building a membership website check out memberful memberful allows you to easily add gated content private member spaces payment collection and more to your WordPress website get started for free at member.com WP builds that's meem b r f.com WP builds hello hello there this week in WordPress episode number 309 thanks for joining us good night we'll see you next week on this week in WordPress it's been a pleasure um no it's the hands yeah that's it that's all we got to say that was the hands uh episode 309 normally right this is called this week in WordPress and let's be honest some things happen uh you know that there's a week and WordPress sort of trundles along and often not much happens this week is the week in WordPress and I'm joined by five people now there's a change right there um joined by five other people today uh and we're going to chat about this week in WordPress I just want to get a couple of things out there first right because I think a few of us uh on this panel that we're going to be slightly rest restricted in what we can say and I just want you to bear that in mind if you've got some comment that you want to drop and it isn't Pleasant or you know you just think that somebody's being a little bit anod or sitting on the fence or whatever and you want them to give more go and DM them have a conversation with them privately elsewhere uh because it has never been the purpose of this show to drop bombs I don't know if you've noticed that but that's something that we don't do we're we're polite in fact in our Facebook group the little logo says be polite always so we're going to Endeavor to get through this week in WordPress talk about all the bits and pieces that have happened we're not going to stay on that subject for the whole time but I imagine it will consume a lot of it but just have that in the back of your mind if you've got something to say frame it in a nice way be positive if you've got something to say about people who are not on this show do the same thing just be nice be thoughtful put some thought into it before you write anything out with that school mom telling off let's go through and uh say hello to everybody first of all let's say hello over there in the corner on my screen at least anyway we' got got Michelle forette how you doing Michelle I am well thank you how are you yeah good good good good I'm going to read Michelle's bio I don't know if everybody's dropped in their bio this week if you haven't you'll just have to make one up yourself but Michelle's goes as follows Michelle frer is the director of community engagement for Stella WP at liquid web in addition to her work at Stella WP Michelle is the podcast Barista at WP Coffee Talk co-founder of under represented in tech.com creator of WP speakers and also WP career Pages she is the director executive director I should say at post status.com co-host of the wp motivate podcast and WP constellation podcast she's also an author a frequent organizer and speaker at WordPress events she lives outside Rochester New York where she is an avid nature photographer and if you want to find out more about her you can go to meet michelle. online always a pleasure to have you Michelle thank you so much we're also joined by um Cameron let's go next there Cameron's got a bio I can see hey how you doing Cameron I'm am quite tired because it's quite late here Nathan how are you yeah I'm good uh this is I suspect the first time where Camerons audio and video have entirely behaved uh quite often we have now you ruined it find some wood quickly would this is a controversy right here that's the controversy that's what we were on about um Cameron Jones enjoys what could be described as an entrepreneur's dream living by the beach in the coastal town of Victor Harbor in Australia while he runs his web development agency shorty designs he is the he's also the founder of the premium plug-in store Marketplace and the maintainer of the official WordPress plugin for the free donation platform Kofi co- fi you can find him online at you know the at symbol Cameron Jones web on most of the platforms now the other people that are joining us today I don't have a bio so let's just go around there was nothing written down so let's just go around and do them one at a time in the order that I see you on the screen so right there right there we've got uh Courtney how you doing Courtney hello I am doing well today uh had a good weekend had some time off I am an open source developer Advocate at GoDaddy and I contribute to these days primarily the contributor dashboards har and I are hoping to talk with you maybe on another show soon Nathan about that one so uh ex exploring transparency in contributing efforts is what holds most of my attention but I also contribute to the meta and training teams sustainability and around the project thank you so much appreciate it uh because of my inability to scroll effectively I was unable to see Taco's uh bio he's actually written one I was just unable to see it because I apparently I can't scroll and so here it goes I always do my homework n app always do my homework okay Taco is the head of relations at Yos you can probably recognize their logo right behind him the uh a translator for WordPress word Camp mentor and word Camp Jun outside of work you can find him volunteering his various different organizations and with his family I've noticed you've dropped the whole bike thing where did that go the whole that's gone yeah I I figured let's focus on the short and important bits okay okay I mean next to Michelle anyone's gonna look like they're not doing that's right you're you're gonna struggle to keep up with that uh but my kids are grown you still have little kids I nothing time yeah Fair can of matters uh appreciate that well thank you for joining us Taco appreciate it and finally joining us I have to say very kindly more or less the last minute is Jame James jaru the reason for that is Tim Nash was going to join us uh but he he's onwell uh he seems to be in the comments so uh you know but um but he's he's not feeling particularly well so firstly hope you're feeling better soon Tim and uh well done you dodged a bullet is all I can say so we we got James with us and I don't have a bio written for James so over to you James tell us about your stuff sure yeah uh I have been in the WordPress ecosystem for about 15 years oh over 15 years now um I've worked with agencies plug-in companies hosts marketplaces you name it um and I am currently uh co-founder for future of team which is a company helping create open People First workplaces as well as an automatici working in the Enterprise division WordPress VIP nice shiny new job there I understand yeah nice uh okay so the first thing I always say is the housekeeping stuff and that is to say that if you want to join us head to wpuld.be comments so you need to have a Google account for that if you don't fancy having a Google account that's fine go into the video and just if you hover around in there right at the top right you'll see this live chat it's a black bottom top right if you invoke that you'll be able to chat without being logged into anything you just type your name into the little box and so that's really nice uh if you want to share this that's probably the place to do it wps.com forlive I've got a caption for that somewhere let me see if I can find it there you go uh wps.com live maybe go and share it we are always joined by a friendly bunch of people and they always drop in a load of comments largely about the weather um which is always is there is he there okay firstly David Warmsley what the heck so nice um David wsy and I did about I don't know 300 podcast episodes together or something like that but we're now Arch enemies we're not um we just stopped doing podcast episodes together he says listen don't mention the War I mentioned it once but I think I got away with it all right okay I'll try not to David thank you Tammy list is joining us she's obviously commenting on that particular comment thank you very much oh there's Tim there he is uh sorry not to be joining you all I would have brought popcorn but it's all all the way downstairs and instead I have oh instead I have lot of tissues lemon and CH oh goodness I'm sorry to hear that Tim I really hope that you get better soon Tammy see the humans and treat them like human I guess that was in response to my let's be polite comment yeah so thank you Tommy for backing me up I appreciate that uh I won't say Common's com Cameron's comment because he's right here but Peter ingol as he always does drops us the weather in Connecticut he's from Connecticut uh and after a week of unexpected heat and stormy conditions we're hoping for Cala Seas as for the weather it's truncated it appears um it's 14 degrees Centigrade 57 degrees Fahrenheit and cloudy very nice uh and Tammy's responded with the weather in good old blighty 16 degrees it's a bit windy uh leaves are falling to the ground it is it's nice oh look at this look there we go um Matt Mullen wag morning folks some of my favorite WP people in here thank you you all Matt I think it's fair to say you're going to get a few men during this episode so here we go um wise art says good morning thank you very much who else have we got good morning from Jeff and behind says hello from equalized digital and Michelle Huffer good to see you all again I saw Michelle uh at Portland and we lost somebody it's oh no I knew it you jinxed him toally Jin roll the roll the footage roll the footage will like it yeah okay so roll the footage right in case things get a little bit heated this week I've prepared a little video right and this is just to calm us all down if any of us receive some nasty comment in the comments or if you know if one of us says something that we don't agree with what we're going to be exposed to is [Music] this now depending on how egregious the uh the comment is that could go for a whole minute it's got It's got cats dogs and sheep for and ukele I mean a ukulele my dopamine and serotonin levels have just increased thank you okay and uh Cameron is back I'm glad to see and we'll just get through all these few comments if that's all right so we've got um morning all from Andrew Palmer thank you very much bab Saul joining us good afternoon from blustery elely Peach and er it's warm and sunny in Valencia not a cloud in the sky beautiful bright automnal light and it goes on and on uh but thank you I I could spend the whole show doing should we just do that should we just talk about what people write and the weather and things that pup press P press the newk of Wordpress less controversial no no yeah press.org the new Fork of Wordpress it's great no no we've got to get stuck into it and so I'm gonna do something I've never done before I'm going to I'm going to ask our panelists to be writing in a Google doc as we go um and it the Google Doc looks a bit like this right uh if you didn't get the link Michelle I'll share it with you in a moment or anybody multitasking yeah yeah multitasking that's what I'm expecting during this week so I threw together a Google Dot and it's pretty basic but you can imagine that this whole show basically is going to be dominated by this one story and if you haven't heard what this one story is about you're about to find out um but I've got it in three sections and the first section is just can we write down what happened now that's probably what a lot of this podcast is going to be I'm going to just display the stories that I think have encapsulated what's going on but then maybe I'm going to miss something right and if I miss something just drop it in there and so I split it into two sides the wordpress.org automatic um and you might put a comma in there and put Matt Mullen WG as well um and on the other side the wp engine side of things because if you didn't know that's the story it is one side versus another um and then what did we like what did we not like you know is there anything about that story that you you know that that happened during this week where somebody said something or you got an intuition about something and thought I like that or didn't like that you know this looks to have been pushing the WordPress Direction uh WordPress project in this direction I don't like that I do like that let's see what happens and then any ideas about what you think could or should happen now so that's your homework panelists um whilst I'm talking you've got to be dropping in there so that when I get back look somebody's written something already that's great um by the time I get back to it it's full up and anybody who hasn't contributed get I don't know they get time in the Sin bin or I don't even know what they get but something bad happens terrible things you know I get Ravens to fly over your house and sork during the night or something like that um so anyway let's get stuck into it I'm GNA have that ready to go and we might we might drop back into it at various different bits and pieces but here we are this is our show it is the wp builds podcast this is our website I'd just like to make some um initial comments the first one is we're sponsored by four brilliant companies we're sponsored by GoDaddy Pro by blue host by omnisend and by memberful you can see them on our website thank you very much for their continuing contributions they keep the likes on over at WP builds and I really really appreciate it uh the other thing to quickly mention is that we've got a Black Friday and Cyber Monday page you know that thing that comes around once a year when everybody just basically empties their wallet um well that's coming fairly soon and in the word WordPress space I like to gather all of the deals together so that they're on one handy page and it'll be searchable and filterable there's only one there at the moment which is Ws form but you'd invoke this and then you know do some searching and filtering that kind of thing so it's at wps.com and if you want to bookmark it woohoo um then you can use that there'll be some affiliate links there but if somebody submits their deal and it's not got an affiliate link it's just going to be a regular Old Link but you know cave at empor that's going on and if you want to secure a sponsorship slot like mark westgard from WS forms has done here we've got a few and click the get started button to uh you know get started so once more wpu docomo word press is happening in Sydney there's a word Camp coming up in Sydney fairly soon it's the 2 to the 3 of November and this handsome chat is going to be speaking so I thought we'd do this first Cameron what's going on is it the first word camp in a long time in the in Australia yes the first time since before Co so the last one was in Port mccy in 2019 um there was one in Sydney about the same time I that one might have happened after but anyway yeah there was meant to be three word camps in 2020 and obviously none of them happened um so yeah this is the first one to have happened in Australia since 2019 so it's been 5 years um and I've also seen that uh there is stuff in the works for another one in a different city next year so good to see that momentum is happening in Australia and yeah so I have been picked as a speaker for this year I will be presenting a tour called the post thumnail Paradox so if you want to know what that is um then you should probably come along nice I got to say I did a I did a podcast episode with um and I forgive me uh right at this moment I can't summon up the name of the person I spoke to but it was with uh somebody in the Australia word press space and they were talking about the pors of um word camps in Australia and the fact that at that moment in time it really didn't look like things were going to kick themselves off but I'm really pleased to say was it Ray M by any chance no it wasn't actually it was um it was somebody in Perth and Joe Min Jo that's it that's it Joe Minnie yeah I I told you make sure to talk to Joe it exacerbated the problem the the location of Perth because you know if you were in Europe so far fromwhere yeah it's like here to Moscow or something right it's not like hop on a train yeah and so there's never been a word camp in Australia outside the East Coast so I am in South Australia so I'm like you know from from east to west I'm like smack bang in the middle but right on the south Perth is the very Western Edge um every single word Camp has been on the East Coast so imagine if you were in say San Francisco um and every single word camp in your country like in the states had been in or around New York that's the sort of distance we're talking like Jo for me from from every other word I could get there too Michelle you know because because Australia you know is more or less the same size as the mainland us generally speaking yeah so yeah if when and we don't have 50 states with 50 Capital territories we have six states and two territ trees I think I've got that right it's been a long time since I've been um now our population is like 95% of it is based around the coastline because there is no water in land um so very few people live more than two hours from the ocean um yeah like geographically we are very very different to the US and yet you know we are pretty much the same size um so yeah we have some very unique challenges when it comes to having WordPress events like Yeah Joe was trying to get a word Camp up for Perth in 2020 obviously the the thing happened and that didn't happen um but yeah you know like for me I like I booked my um everything to go to Sydney the other week it's cost me several thousand it's a tri trip of over a th000 km so um yeah yeah it's yeah you know it it there are unique challenges that come with being in Australia not just the fact that you know we haven't had stuff for five years well I appreciate everybody in the uh in the Australia Community sticking with it and uh this looks great so um word Camp Sydney 2024 if you go to sydney. camp.org sl202 4 and then you can browse to your heart's content um but it does look like it's a call for volunteers and uh I I guess the the speaker rounds are all over if you've been you know off of the speaker spot at this point but um yeah it's happening uh on the 2nd to the 3 of November so you've got just just over a month Michelle can I ride can I ride those coattails and say that the next uh word camp in the the states is this coming Saturday here in Rochester New York so I will be it's a small word camp we expect about 50 to 7 people um but that's goinging up this Saturday um the um I've just been I've just been totally like sideways knocked because I saw Matt is trying to fill out the Google sheet kind of thing um via the comment so if anybody wants to copy paste what Matt's putting into the comments I don't know if you can see those into the Google sheet he's obviously trying to keep us up to date on there that's that's helpful thank you um but yeah tell us the URL Michelle for that uh it's rochester. wap.org 2024 perfect rochester. camp.org 2024 okay should we do it are you ready um do we need a small bracing ver do we need just a small little you know Glimpse okay we'll just do like 20 seconds this everybody take a breath right calm down here they come just use this moment to be as Zen as possible when we come back it's not going to be like that [Music] okayy I'm ready I've got to say disappointingly when I made that video I put all the really cute ones at the end um and when I play the video I didn't realize I had to start and stop at the beginning every time so it's a bit disappointing uh I can't sort of scan to halfway through so we're going to get the same ones I'm afraid but they're cute enough right here we go here we go here we go let's begin the whole Enterprise so oh I'll do that bit later right I guess I guess this is where we begin um so this was Matt Matt Mullen who's in the comments um wrote a blog post on the 17th of September and it was entitled word Camp us ecosystem thinking and Asma is in the comments he can correct anything that I say incorrectly but this was written I think probably at the end of contributor day if memory Serv judging by what was at the beginning and it began the the whole process which ultimately led to the the end of the word Camp word Camp us ended with Matt getting on stage and delivering an address but it was couched uh largely from I think what was in this piece including that image which we're going to see just there this image was put up on stage and really this is Matt's kind of listen to me I'm talking like Matt's not in the room and he's in the room I feel quite weird um and it's this kind of virtuous cycle of how an open source project could be thought of and Matt has decided to call it ecosystem thinking that's how he's sort of encapsulated it in his own head and you can see it's it just goes round and round it's like an infinite Loop you learn you evolve you teach and then finally and this is the bit this word the nourish word and if you nourish we start the process again you do more learning more evolving more teaching and nourish and basically what you can think of um is the nourishing bit is the giving back and the giving back in the the WordPress space is in some way contributing and we all know what that means we know that for people like me it basically means time um because that's what I've got that's the commodity that I have I have time I don't have Deep Pockets can we all have small violins um but you know what I mean so I can contribute time so I do bits of that where I can but for other companies who have uh deeper Pockets the intention well not intention the how to describe what's the right word what's the what's the word I'm looking for the aspiration let's go with that the aspiration would be that a proportion of the company's time Revenue whatever it may be may get consumed back into the project in this nourishing cycle and uh I think broadly we as a community that's what's happening I think that's what's happening I think if you pulled 99% of people or companies there would be some intuition that that would be yes that's what we want to do but Matt feels that certain things are falling short and in this particular piece he highlights some companies that he thinks are doing well so he shouts out newold awesome motive ten up GoDaddy hostinger and Google thinks that they're doing their um their nourishing piece they've got the they've got their intuitions right according to mat um but the piece begins to talk about um how one company in particular and this is where it got weird for most people the company got named and that company in question is WP engine now WP engine I'm sure if you watched this show is a household name we've all heard it um but Matt's proposition was that because they are part of a wider company um and I do you know what do you know what the company has gone out of my head Silver Lake thank you so much Silver Lake and I don't honestly at this point I'm going to profess massive ignorance I don't understand how Venture Capital works I don't understand how this company get bought and what their incentives are and what they've got to do to repay the that kind of a debt but the the piece pointed out that Silver Lake is now the controlling person the controlling entity for um WP engine and it was felt that uh they weren't giving back enough and here's the statistic automatic uh so automatic the company that we all know that James works for and many many others uh contributes 3,786 hours per week not counting himself WP engine the this piece says goes in at 47 hours per week and so from here this piece was written it raised a few eyebrows but then the story developed because I think if that had been just the thing maybe the story could have um sort of put itself to bed at that point but then what happened is um at word Camp us at the end of the um conference uh Matt came up on stage and basically laid out the same points went a little bit further uh we had some slides on the on the slide deck showing um the wp Engine logo and we had the what what's the what's the person's name that was can anybody remember Lee whitlinger I believe what was his name Lee whitlinger I believe this last name a person whose slide came up Lee whitlinger who I believe is the S one of the founders or certainly a senior person at Silver Lake and um and so this came out and for me sitting in the audience this was a new thing this was a a new moment where um something that I hadn't heard being talked about was being openly talked about on stage and really that's where the story starts so should companies uh be well compelled is the wrong word should we if we're profiting massively should we be um should we be I don't know have some sort of moral guidance that we need to contribute back and if not should we be allowed to I don't know participate in the same way as every everybody else should we be allowed for example to attend word camps should we be allowed to have access to the WordPress repository should we get all of the benefits that WordPress brings uh without any of the the constraints you know and not constraints but things like contributing back and then it all got a bit legal um and WP engine of uh got their lawyers to write a what is called a cease and desist which I don't understand but I know it basically means can you stop that now please um and then um automatic did the same and that I believe is kind of where we're at so I'm going to return to the Google dot um and see if anything has been written there and if I've missed anything at this point would you just start to fill me in if you are able to fill me in bear in mind at this point panelists that we're just trying to say what happened not what we think about what happened I think there's a very important comment by Peter ingol thank you you want want to put on screen as well yeah find where he says that uh oversimplifying what we mean by contributing might be the root cause of issues okay should we get into that for a minute should we just let's let's just have a like a bit of a segue and talk about that because if I I think I've got my handle on what that means I think it means giving up time or money or some resource that you possess um in order to help the the the wordpress.org project in whatever way that might be so that might be I don't know turning up to an event an organizing event it might be giving money it might be giving time but um to help Peter out can we give us our intuition so anybody interrupt I don't think sorry you go let's let's go let's go Courtney then Cameron thank you contributing is an area I can absolutely speak a lot to um so in other open source projects um foundations are set up in such a way that the foundation is the employer of staff that are full-time designated to the project um that is not true in WordPress I'm not calling for that kind of a revolution necessarily um but what I am suggesting is that we look at in other open source projects like openjs goad funds openjs um and a few other areas too like phpcs which is a lot of the backbone of wpcs which is our code quality in WordPress um we get to these things in the case of openjs the JavaScript Foundation um in funding that that is we do have staff members that participate in areas like npm in part-time capacities so if they see that there's something to drive or attending meetings Etc they do that but also organizations often will provide funds as well to a foundation and that covers some of the other infrastructure that needs to happen um so I think that there's learning to be done in some of those ways and I know that Matt you've shared that the foundation has will never fund contributors and I after launching wpcc understand some of the IRS rules around some of that um and look for ways to still fund so in the US There Are Rules with our government our Revenue system that say that we can't provide funds to code for open source um I'm looking to how other open source projects have addressed that and some of the needs that they have as well as looking from my department specifically my manager Adam many of you know Marcus and Maya as well um that part of my team specifically handles our word Camp presence and how we show up at camps and so in other open source communities how event sponsorship works is not the same necessarily as how it is in WordPress and again there are learnings to be had from that so for instance um I attended open source Summit which is part of the Linux foundation and their perspectus for sponsors learning how sponsors at other open source events have it um States quite clearly if they get selection on speakers and some other issues like that so I think that there's learning to be done there and also some transparency around maybe why we do or do not want that for the for WordPress the project I think kind of doing a comparison and learning the pros and cons from these other systems not saying we have to adopt them but just having the conversation around how do other open source projects handle this what are the wins and losses that they've experienced what learnings can we get so that if we choose to adopt some of these things we can bypass some of the struggles they faced uh could go well for our community thank you Courtney I appreciate your comment there and um Cameron do you want to step in yeah I just wanted to touch on what Peter said you know like I I don't think that the confusion or issue around contributing is what people are doing in terms of contributing like yeah it's either time or money like we don't really have anything else to offer um you know one way or another it's that it's more what counts as a contribution so like in the past I've been a co- co-organizer of meetup events um at the same time um of two different meetup groups I've been an organizer of a word Camp I've contributed code to core well at least tickets and the code that I contributed ended up evolving to look nothing like what I put in but anyway um I've I've contributed code to ACF I've contributed code to Jetpack I've contributed code to a few other various plugins in the ecosystem you know and from what I'm aware according to the definition of fire for the future absolutely zero of that would count um except maybe you know the the ones I did for like core and Gutenberg project um and then there's also this attitude towards what does and doesn't count there there does seem to be um this stance that um and while everything counts as a contribution if it's not fire for the future then we don't care um is it's very much a yeah I mean that's that's the way I perceive it from what I've seen out there you know you know and and you know the whole Crux of this argument that WP engine isn't doing enough you know they only do 40 hours a week to fight for the future you know it's you know I I can acknowledge how difficult it is to quantify because there are some things that absolutely should count and there are some things that absolutely shouldn't count um but you know it's a very great area and I am absolutely not going to try and propose a solution here um I'm I'm the the idea solution right now the idea that certain people's contributions are valued and certain people's contributions are not and then those contributions that aren't valued are then weaponized because they're not valued even though they are contributing maybe in an equal or greater amount so yeah yeah just wanted to make that put that I want to step in here too because I think you know when we talk about contributing you're right not not everything counts as five for the future some of the things that I have contributed to or or been part of like the thing for me I think that does make sense is like if if it's marketing for your product or your company or your brand I think that's fair that that's not cons considered five for the future still contributing right we still need the money for work camps and it's there's still value in doing that um but I I agree that I don't think that should count for five for the future because it's not really fully for the community like there's a kickback right so in that regard I think that that makes sense um but I also think I just saw a comment scrolling as well that um Meetup organizing definitely counts as five for the future um um because if you look at that that's giving back like you're not maybe if you're even if you're sponsored to do something like that that that's still for the community that's um you know a good thing that way so I think for me the contributing confusion comes around what counts as contributing you know like we do all these altruistic things but it is that moving the project itself forward or is it just kind of platitudes on the surface a little bit and that's I think the part that's a bit challenging for us to navigate through okay just quick straw poll either either hand up or no hands and no hands by the way doesn't mean you're disagreeing it just says you didn't cast a vote do you think that that we are confused as a community about what counts as a contributing thing definitely okay so we got four out of the six but V two the two that didn't vote might well not be given an opinion we're just you know no I I do have an opinion and I disagree I I think that we've especially with the um revision of the five for the future pages and the ongoing revision of the handbook earlier this year um the definition has been clarified significantly and I hate it because now it looks like I'm just reading out what Matt's saying so next time wait until I gave my common mat before you start typing um but I would say that anywhere where we contribute to um the open source project which is to one of the make WordPress teams that's where you can contribute it towards five for the future yeah um if it's contributing to well you named the example of Jetpack Cameron um that's a for-profit company that is definitely a valuable contribution to our community because it's making a product better that a lot of us use but it's not the altruistic giving back to the project uh because there's a commercial interest for someone else not for you but for someone else um for sure I wouldn't expect that one too you know um yeah obviously so um I can encourage anyone to contribute to Yost SEO but that's not going to count towards five for the future whereas if you uh and I think the easiest use case is uh a single uh solopreneur uh building WordPress websites spending one day a month translating WordPress into their native language that's super straightforward it's easy that's exactly 5% of your resources because one day a month equals 5% okay well slightly overspending in February but well you're in you're you're doing better than you should in that case yeah yeah exactly I ra I raised my hand because I'm not confused about my contributions and which of my contributions count and which don't for example I have podcasts my podcasts contribute to the community but they don't contribute to F the future totally get that WP speakers does not contribute to five for the future WP career page things that I do on the side I think they're great for the community they don't count for five for the future because they don't fit in one of the teams the make teams right um I get that I don't think the community at large understands that especially solopreneurs and entrepreneurs who may or may not give back because they don't number one understand what the five for the future is for everybody and not just for big corporations but also don't know how to put that in um in their wordpress.org file I think that we need more education for the masses about what that looks like and how to even make that count on your wordpress.org file and I think bigger companies need to have better um processes by which they help their employees who are contributing to those different things be able to make that count through their wordpress.org profile so you know I serve on two teams primarily sometimes marketing but mostly I serve on community teams because I do heck of a lot of organizing um and mentoring and then I also serve on the photos team and that's about four hours a week which is more than 5% of my time that my company is allowing me to do during my 40-hour work week um and that's awesome right so that's great there's so many other things that I do that aren't part of that I get that but I think that we need a campaign to help everybody understand exactly how that works it isn't enough to just have it on a website because they don't know to look there um WP .org is huge it's a behemoth of a website and navigating it as a firsttime person in the WordPress Community can feel very overwhelming and so I think there's you know and I know we have mentorship programs that's a small number of people I'm not sure how to reach everybody but I think that there is an understanding problem in the community at large firstly um Michelle gets a biscuit because she managed to squeeze the word behemoth into this podcast that's outstanding you know I think we were all hosting for that se Pro um so brilliant can I can I add just a thought here so as the weekend is rolling on um clearly I'm working on the contributor dashboards that I've been all about and talking to people about really Andrea and I started talking about it in like 2020 um so this area of what is contributing and not contributing um absolutely Michelle I like the ideas that you're sharing about make teams versus community at large and I think that um I would like to see more especially from those most dependent hosts plugins themes and agencies of a certain scale to do more towards the official teams I'm not giving opinions about how any of those have done so or not but when our livelihood depends upon it especially things like showing up for the release parties and testing your own stuff against the release that could lead to some really interesting educ Cas stuff so see the test team site make. wordpress.org test but if if folks are going to start comparing this company or that and how they show up please do not rely upon core props as your judgment marker because that does not reveal things like uh the folks that have shown up to organize where Camp us just happened the people that show up at meetup groups that is all very vital um I've been circulating a picture of a co-worker of mine that at word Camp Canada cleared out 100 plugins reviewed in a day that doesn't show up on the core props list so if you're going to look at how my employer shows up um as contributing the bubble charts are very insufficient in that regard and that's why we need to have a more holistic picture of what's going on and I think overreliance on that is um core is absolutely vital obviously we really wouldn't be here without the core team however uh it's insufficient in terms of any kind of comparison and really I don't want to get into nitpicking on comparisons it's not about which company does this that or the other thing when it looks at an organization that might be sponsoring people I think that uh what I'm most interested in is benefiting the cost of the teams do we have the resourcing in the individual teams that are needed to sustain things if your company your organization your customers your clients what have you are dependent on having I'll pick on Serbia because I have a lot of co-workers in Serbia if if that's the audience that you've got wouldn't it behoove you to have the docs ready at release in that local um you know so thinking about it from that perspective of where can you get the biggest bang through your buck in terms of serving your audience can help go a long way at increasing the opportunity to contribute can I ask would anybody welcome the opportunity to get something in return and I don't mean Financial I just mean some sort of accreditation for their contributing and again I don't mean like necessarily you know one size fits all but would it be would it be good to have kind of like a like for like thing would it would it be good to have a place where you can go and log the things that you contributed against the set of criteria that were published on a website and then I don't know the badge system or something like that to say you know in the last year I can prove that I contributed I know 50 hours to word camps and get something back for that so a whole range of different ways to demonstrate that you contributed but also a team on the other end and dare I say it they probably would need to be paid for or something like that of people who could literally do the due diligence you know when I apply for my passport they're not just giving passports out somebody has to go and say what did you do prove it and once I proved it okay there you go there's your passport in return for all of the bits and pieces that you sent us is that just a silly idea it kind of it seems silly yeah sorry yes it is um I'll be I'll be brutally honest and blunt with you um why because it's super hard um one of my favorite examples personally is uh in the Dutch WordPress slack some of the people who are uh Global translation editors are coaching others to um help do better translations that is completely off the radar of any uh qualifying instance otherwise you would need access to any and all of all the slack instances all of slack DMS all of everything um and that's simply impossible so I think that the system that we currently have in five for the future which is trust based self-reporting as Andrew Palmer tried to point out a gazillion times in the chat um is the best system an H system be honest about what you're contributing towards five for the future is the best system otherwise it becomes impossible yeah I I understand there'd be this crazy spaghetti wouldn't there and it really wouldn't get rid of the problem of what counts and what doesn't count I did raise a few comments so apologies conney I'm just going to get to the end of this a little bit um the our comments are not usually our comments are usually one way they're directed at the at us on the screen and today we've got this unique situation where you know comments are flying left right and Center there's lots of atting people so there's lots of comments going to each other which is lovely um but it does mean that I'm not necessarily going to be able to pick out every comment and show it on the screen I hope you understand that and so if you've said something and I've just bypassed it entirely it's not through there's no kind of editorializing going on there I'm literally just not seeing them all because I can't keep up frankly because I'm trying to monitor what's going on elsewhere I apologize conly carry on uh so Taco I there was one of the concerns with the tooling that we have to report some of the metrics we're looking solely at activity and I highlighted about how we have so many different slack instances for the different locals and what would need to be done for that as well as things like um there's a lot in the data that that I'll I'll get with Nathan and we'll do a deep dive with Hari and I and Nathan on this um but there's areas that we can in work towards like right now our dashboards don't have a means of bringing track in and we're still dependent on that I spoke with Otto about that at us uh Otto and I are going to catch up later this week around some of that and see what we could do getting the slack systems in um getting the it does take RSS but that doesn't solve for things like somebody's revised a post a page of thing somewhere and then in all of the locals so we're multiplying all of the places and again the self-reporting you know a lot of the work that some of folks of us do in the project are more knowledge work oriented and so I looked at what druple is doing uh and it is a self-reporting mechanism anything that can be automated good gracious let's do that because we're all busy um anything that cannot be automated then let's make means for being able to pull that information in in a reasonable way as well duple has a self-reporting mechanism I'm forgetting the name of it at the moment but it's basically a form you fill out and says like my employer I'm contributing on behalf of either like my employer my customer my whatever and um I think that there's room for all of that to be included as well as some of the things that Google looker Studio can provide about traffic to the site and things came up in a marketing meeting during us as well um so it's on the radar these are big problems to solve yes can I just say if you've ever peeled back the curtain on Courtney's capacity to automate things it's rather impressive um it really is quite impressive what Courtney has managed to automate on you know the stuff that she puts out each week especially on post status and and as she knows I crib a lot of what Courtney creates and what Michelle creates for my my bits and pieces So yeah thank you for everything that you do okay right as I said too many comments coming through we'll get to the Google Doc in a minute um but a couple of things that just occur to me the first one is this kind of feels like it had to happen at some point right if it wasn't in our community it' be in another one we've got Capital coming in we're a popular project WordPress is 43% of the web and we've had in the last 10 years or so we've had this kind of more or less exponential growth and we've had lots of companies coming in and putting their capital in and some of it um I guess could be described as venture capital and and so were we not going to knock heads at some point was this not some kind of inevitable where the people who perhaps might describe themselves as I don't know authentic open source let's just use that you know they've got that kind of more I'm for the community I don't represent Finance they've got their opinion of how projects like WordPress should look and it's very I don't know what the word is but it feels different from the inside of that it feels different from the inside of the um the sort of the money-making approach if you like and it did feel to me four or five years ago when every week we had a story about a company buying another company you know a big company buying a Plugin or hoovering up all the plugins were we not all thinking that at some point the heads are going to collide and it just so happens that this week it happened so there's that the other thing is um I just wonder people in the comments if you think this is about I don't know about just purely about money or if you think it does have to do with the the WordPress ethic the ethos of an open- Source Community the whole thing is still an experiment right we we think WordPress it's been around for all these years but if you rewind the clock 50 years none of this existed you know open source anything was just an anatoma nobody had ever heard of it it didn't exist so I guess we're just kind of making it up as we go along and given the magnitude of Wordpress feels like we're at the Vanguard and the trip wires are going to kind of hit us a little bit earlier well there's my diet tribe I don't know if that's added anything um I saw I saw James sort of nodding his head a little bit during that and I don't know if you want to chip in uh I think that's good like has this always been coming absolutely right I think um the open way that that WordPress tries to navigate these challenges this was a very likely scenario I don't think I I I think there's two things that we got to watch here one is the issues around contributing are very much moral issues they're not legal issues right this is about project we're creating the ecosystem we're creating and who we as a community want want to celebrate and um incorporate into the way we move forward um so that is one issue um the legal stuff the trademark stuff that's totally separate and that's that's between companies so my thinking is you know on on that alone this is a conversation that was definitely going to come up um and it has been coming up it's been something that's been there for a while f for the future exists as a concept because years ago we could see the writing on the wall that if we didn't put something in place companies would take advantage then so um yeah I think we're here I think it's a a good conversation to have um but it is one of multiple conversations that are happening at the same time we are in such a curious space though aren't we because you know in every other Walk of Life I mean there's definitely some exceptions you know take for well in the UK at least Healthcare um is not a for-profit thing particularly but education right um things like that um and most things in society there's a there's a definite relationship between uh you do something and you get a return on it you you do a thing um and you do enough of that thing and you you expect to be um remunerated financially for that thing and that's just the normal course of events when I talk to people about WordPress who've got no relationship with WordPress they and I say say and I say what it is and they say well how much does that cost I say well it cost nothing they're like hang on wait what um and then I explain and that that's really weird what's going on there you know they find it genuinely intriguing and and we do have it in us don't we to assume that okay you did X you need x times whatever dollar sign back in return and yet this isn't that and so I can see in the comments there's a lot of people you know equating it the contributions to money I can also see the opposite in the comments I genuinely don't know what what we do about it but I do know that that Society the regular society that we all live in has a definite skew towards being remunerated financially because that's just the simplest way to trans to do transactions we all get it but in this case it's entirely different and how we grapple with that and how we lock it down and how we say that's fair that's not fair is is really difficult but in this particular week we've got an issue where you know um the the co-founder of Wordpress has has um has decided that you know that this needs to be aired that the bottleneck has been reached the trip wire has been crossed uh other metaphors that mean the same thing as that um yeah and so here we are is there anything interesting on the spreadsheet yet does anybody has anybody added anything over um while we go looking at that yesterday afternoon Matt shared in the make word press hosting slack some ideas of having a more uh after getting through the hosting page Matt what did you call that I don't have the link right now watching for you um but after so after we press.org hosting having a listing of those that also meet the criteria I think is roughly what he was going for of five for the future contributing um I don't have the hosting slack I was dming Matt the link and thank you for getting some sleep last night Matt um but I have the link right now in front of me for the hosting Channel um but the hosting Channel there's a discussion that's had and instead of um kind of instead of the idea Matt had I said hey let's go back to the idea that you agreed with me about which was uh being transparent and I kind of came up with a rubric or a style when things are hard to assess as a teacher my background was indicating that yeah thank you Lucas uh wordpress.org hosting official and so the idea for that it's not a live link yet that I know of although someone could double check on that um is you know if you're not just a recommended host but you also are doing the things of contributing and the idea that I had had um is I think it's okay to share this so Matt you have said that you have had private conversations you know you have reached out in the case with Heather and others uh directly to various companies the community doesn't get to see that backstory and the community doesn't get to know what those standards are that are set and so the hosting page and others the become moving targets because the standards are shared in those private conversations about what one needs to do to be restored and by having something that is uh when it's hard to grade students on something that is very subjective a rubric is what teachers lean on to become more objective so this is fancy educator talk but basically it's like let's say here's the standards on a scale what we need to do to get there and be listed um and so that conversation is also happening and I feel that that's pretty relevant to this idea of like should organizations be get some kind of a badge or something to indicate that they are in good standing I think that that's part of it um and I'd like to see that transparency in that area I'll just quickly say Cameron private message me a little while ago to say his internet connection is a bit patchy so um I don't think that never happens to freaking out and sort of leaving us periodically to go you know publish a wall or anything like that it's a backup laptop I'm my my normal one is fried oh I'm so sorry I tell you it's not the best setup whilst you're here it's holding on very well and taco in a little private message this is cool I did not know this I said go back 50 years or so and open source wasn't the thing I am wrong apparently because open source goes back more than 50 years uh when Volvo open sourced the invention of the three-point seat belt now there's your propeller hat moment the uh woohoo that's nerdy as you get so okay right thank you for that let's go and see what we got on the spreadsheet so again apologies I know that in a show that's an hour and a half long we can't really open up all of the bits the nuances of this whole discussion hopefully we've raised a few bits and pieces but the intention was to to Really frame it around this little document here so okay here we go um it is not going to be perfect but this is what we've managed to get together so March the 22 so what happened March the 22nd um Paul Morana sorry if I butchered the name who is the CEO at woo and Tony Schneider the interim automatic CEO presented a deck to Heather Bruner on trademark licensing uh 30th of May WP engine receives the first term sheet 12th of June and thir third of July WP engine calls out terms 16th of July Victor Juan um from WP engine says that he'll discuss terms by the end of July so that all H that's all a preface uh to this whole debate that was all the stuff which happened prior uh to Matt writing his post on the M.T website so that adds a little bit of cont text behind the scene everything else that you have heard about has been happening in public so you can see the Fallout of that let's go to the more let's go to the more sort of nuance stuff here what did we like what did we not like uh so on the liked the uh the called for contribution that's a win right isn't isn't that a pretty good win it totally put out there the conversation about contribution uh so everybody now knows that that's a thing and if you're using Wordpress I honestly it's in the regular media this week that's never happened I mean the real P you know the the newspaper that you go and get on the corner of the street it's in that that's never happened uh and so we've got this this project being talked about and so people now know that you need to contribute what else did we like Matt being very available okay uh whoever wrote that if you want to say something what was the context there Matt went on podcast he's been publicly tweeting whereas have we basically got crickets from uh Silver Lake I don't know I understand uh quite clearly when employers would like a certain amount of silence or not um I think Matt being available is good uh I think when this cycle slows down I would like to see Matt's availability across.org also continue um perhaps not to this extent because you do need sleep you need to take care of you but I I think being available um is good I do think that it's helping the community to understand more of the issues okay okay great and then uh we have this other like to which is Matt explaining the detail by the way I'm looking over there because that's where I've got the screen I'm not being like elsewhere uh Matt explains the details on the whole structure of everything WordPress and why it is the way from a legal and tax P perspective where did that surface whoever wrote that was that the one of the the um one of the the video podcasts that he did uh over last I wrote that okay and yeah that came on the theot t3g uh interview that he did which was um I mean like if you listen to or watch nothing else like watch that one I think um yeah I know I have like there's so much Blurred Lines about what is WordPress what is owned by what you know in the end it all just comes down to Matt owns pretty much 99% of it but you know as to who owns and manages what part of it it's very confusing um and so yeah I know there are lots of people who have been waiting for that to be put out in such detail and not just the detail but also the reasons why from a legal and tex perspective why a lot of that had to happen that way so oh okay and I haven't seen that video how did it make you if you're willing how did it calm you down a bit did it I know you weren't on any kind of precipice anyway but did it did it give you a bit more of a wider picture did it make you understand Matt's position more you may have already been on that side of the debate I don't know but did it give you a a broader sort of understanding yeah definitely um I mean I knew most of it that I'd figured it out or had heard other people summarize but didn't have the why like especially from the tax thing because yeah part of me is just like you know uh like when the whole bridge fairy lights thing happened a few months ago um there was you know a lot of blow and mat pretty much said it's my project I can do whatever I want um you know paraphrases mine um and so you know part of me has always wondered like why does Matt own like the project and not the foundation why does the foundation only do the trademarks and the events and so this clarify that exactly why that is 100% not an option um because it wouldn't fly for tax reasons so like that was really helpful okay yeah I confess at the very least I I now wish that I had seen that but you can't consume everything right in the runup to something like this you do I've read what I've read and I didn't what I didn't but um yeah I know that's right I I also had to sleep sadly um and then we've got another one here eventually we'll get more clarity on how the trademark works so okay so that's playing it forwards a little bit so we're seeing as one of the good things is that new things will happen things that haven't yet been addressed or have fallen by the wayside or are unclear might get some kind of inspection might come under the microscope a little bit and therefore become a little bit more clear for example uh trademark it does sound from what we talked about we spent a long time on contributions maybe there's a a piece on um trying to figure out what those contribution looks like by the way the new universal symbol for contributions is that if you do jazz hands that's now what it means apparently yeah well just I've just coined it uh okay so what we didn't like okay here we go um WordPress presentations could have been more thorough in the history as well as the consequences so maybe this uh speaks to the bit which Cameron just mentioned where um Matt was able to on a podcast which I think was quite a lengthy thing uh was able to explain some of the bits and pieces he maybe didn't have a chance to to do that and the presentation could have been different um and had those other things peppered throughout it okay um website visitors and agencies building are there as casualties website visitors and agencies building there as casualties so this is an argument that I've heard a lot especially in uh regard to um WP engine clients there was a whole piece about the repo getting Switched Off which then kind of got switched back on uh there was a reprieve I think that reprieve is still yep I think it then till tomorrow uh 1st of October I don't know what's going to happen then I'm imagining that WP engine are figuring that out as we speak uh but then there was also the things like what happens to people for example who are using ACF can that be updated and what have you because that spreads right outside of the uh the wp engine ecosystem so casualties basically that could be a problem we don't like that um and oh somebody wrote Matt is facing facing health issues get well soon so okay thank you he shared during he shared his health concerns during his address at C us okay kidney stones are not fun I know experience yeah yeah okay so yeah I think it goes without saying we don't want anybody to be on well so best wishes to Matt uh and Matt okay what we don't like another one Matt criticizing WP engine for not speaking out despite sending them a cease and desist Matt criticizing WP engine for not speaking out so are we basically saying that on the one hand you're telling them to stop talking about it but on the other you're kind of getting on social media speaking so you you'd like them to do that so it's are you saying that's a mixed message Mage whoever said that uh and finally uh in here at least anyway damage to the WordPress brand is that a given do you think do you think in three weeks time four weeks time we'll be caring about this story you think it'll blow away and nobody's going to be uh upset anymore do you think the wider public will now have knowledge about WordPress and distrust it more so my prince newspaper that I can get at the corner shop has an impact you know they write a story it changes people's lives you know they write a hotel review and it's favorable suddenly that business goes woohoo and if some news article about WordPress being I don't know being in a spat or you know it's negatively impacted maybe maybe I don't know I think it's less about that in particular and more that there are so many people feeling like they could be collateral damage so I I see posting on Facebook groups and things like well what does this mean for me as a solopreneur as an entrepreneur as a site owner um if I host if I don't host there but I host someplace else am I am I going to be at risk tomorrow and those kinds of things I think those need to be settled so that people can at least breathe and go well I'm not in that battle but I'm okay kind of thing so I don't know I saw I saw Courtney ning I think she has seen some things as I have probably okay yeah we'll we'll leave those buried if it's not um available for public consumption we're trying to be polite and nice here as we always do um but yeah but then there's the old adage that any us is is you know any press is good press right I guess oh good press going to go and register that domain um do uh and I'll get the.org while I'm at it good press um the the point being that you know if you're being spoken about in the media it's probably good who knows uh what the intuition will be there and I do wonder if uh out there in the in the general public anybody even knows that this is going on um they do it's been all over Tik toac even I should say all over but lawyers and people are talking about it in places that are not normally talked about okay right um I think it's going to we'll see some uh interesting shakeup with the supply chain basically supply chain is everything from we we ship a release to how people are getting the updates and all the layers between um it'll be interesting to see where the courts land with it okay thank you and okay now let's just turn our attention finally to what could should happen now bear in mind this is just our opin is it time for some kittens in between so that okay let's do it yeah let quite right you know there hasn't been enough kittens dogs or sheep uh for a while now so again just sit back uh concentrate on your breathing perhaps adopt the Lotus position and uh just enjoy the next 20 seconds I'm trying to sound like some sort of jazz jazz uh you know somebody that introduces Jazz musicians so sit back you have to get a lot closer getting much closer so sit back relax and try to enjoy cats dogs and [Music] sheep I should have put a dragon in there or something should just just thrown one real Humdinger in SM yeah that's just freak out can I just can I just check something with you Nathan did you say lotus position or fetal position CU I'm not sure the right one I said Lotus I think I hope I did okay that's not going in the transcript that's coming out oh good grief uh okay let's get to this bit what we think what we maybe this some of this has come from the comments maybe some of this is just what we as a panel think uh what could or should happen right now WP engine Rebrand engine engine WP flywheel Etc I think it was a little bit of confusion at the beginning and I know that the trademark description on wordpress.org around WP got changed there was a little bit more clarification added into there um this podcast is called WP builds if I'm correct in my reading of it I've got nothing to worry about because I'm not kind of you know I'm not being a bad custodian of that but I hope that's the case uh okay so we'll see if that happens if Matt if Matt wants the new I'm just reading this you can see if Matt wants the nuclear option to be an option documented process in intricate detail of how this will play out for supposed Bad actors Revenue numbers contribution numbers and what counts as contributions punishments timelines Etc interesting transparency and contribution yeah we got that kind of twice haven't we here I got another one just there transparency and contribution have public discourse about five of the future discussions okay Clarity in sponsor booths uh by the way at word Camp us um WP engine were a sponsor and so there was you know the the possibility for tension there they were one of the I I can't remember what the top tier is called was it like platinum or something um but they were you know one of the top tier sponsors at the event and so there was some thought as to whether that would be difficult Clarity and sponsor Boos and more incentives for sponsors at other open- source software conferences the sponsors get speaking slots for staff or to nominate others uh and this comment is you're all dancing around the critical point WordPress the project needs cash but distribution of that must be for the community Above All Else the project needs cash but distribution must be for the community above all else can somebody unpack that one for me um does anybody pass that easily I copied that over from a comment that Andrew Palmer made in uh comments oh thank you um Andrew Palmer and I talk fairly frequently so I'll take that up with him but uh yeah it's a it's a cash based thing thank you Andrew I appreciate it so what I would say is um that comments are are sort of um going in a different direction where the inclusion of sheep in your little intermo is discussed as being very British where Cameron's just eating lamb the heck everybody loves a sheep don't they aren't they like one of the like a little lamb sheep's more kiwi than it w whams don't we so okay cats and dogs that that's cool but sheep no no did you ever hear there was once a band back in the 1980s called the klf they were really popular and they did this album ju I think it was called chill or chill out and they they hired a recording studio and uh demolished more or less half of it and then rebuilt it for sheep so that when they were playing their instruments they could be watching the Sheep because they were trying to play them as gently and as calmly as possible and they figured that sheep would contribute something to the album uh go check it out it's true and um and so I've always thought of sheep as being quite you know quite a calming little animal have we done that story are we all happy to move away from you know that trip wire just not I think that besides the sheep in the comments which obviously is an interesting um uh step but um there's something else where uh Matt just said um we don't need cash um we need let me uh yeah need hours exactly okay yeah but those people need cash to pay their bills that's the problem yeah yeah that point Cameron is about so with the foundation not being able to directly staff folks um Matt I would love to go over we were I had a good conversation with uh another cohort at another company and Hari at lunch at us about the common struggles between someone like myself saying we need to do XYZ someone like yourself saying we need to do XYZ and wherein that breakdown occurs and I would like to get together on some FAQs to put on the five the future page um that are specific to that mid management level to help unlock that as well as uh Amber was bringing up Amber Hines was bringing up about the impact that all of this has on small businesses and um I shared on on another podcast recently that the idea of um if you're a small business and how do you also afford to contribute in the midst of all of this you know I've seen some small businesses that have said I show up and I contribute as part of their selling Advantage um you know Amber you certainly contribute to the accessibility team and I'm sure that you let your clients know that so that's amazing but those that feel like I cannot the simple low-lift things like kicking in at least premium license plug-in equivalent to someone that is contributing through their GitHub sponsors page or something like that if you yourself cannot get in there with the hours that the project needs and I think Matt's right on this the numbers in our contributor dashboard show that mats right on this one if you yourself can't get in there then there are other means of funding contributors and that's something that I'm really passionate about working on so let's talk I think it must be a very difficult Circle to square the you know we can see clearly in the comments don't we there's this kind of cash volunteer volunteer cash they're very difficult to work out perfectly and obviously a project like this requires sort of an element of both and I don't know how to manage that and Corral it I know it's hard for me to get my children to get in the car you know that's really difficult and Trust trying to shepher a project with thousands of people contributing to it gosh um so hopefully that has at least raise some other points hopefully you've had a chance to sort of listen to an alternative position I realize that we haven't nailed the coffin on this we haven't figured out the answer we've just said what we've said it's not our responsibility no figure out the answer but I will say one thing I will commit to doing a webinar through post status on how to make sure that you attribute your your cont contributions through your wordpress.org profile so I will do that for the community so I can only do so much I'm one person but I will commit to doing that um after word Camp Rochester and after uh WP accessibility day because I am very busy this weekend next yes yes indeed now we do have some other stories lined up do we think we've got time for any of these we have to talk about WP accessibility day because it's next week okay so should we should let's do that one first um WP accessibility day if you go to WP accessibility. day correct no no no no no 2024 WP accessibility. first one we'll get you there eventually too yeah yeah you'll get there eventually um it's happening when give us the dates Michelle October 9th and 10th so it begins next week uh it begins at I want to say I've never I'm so bad at time zones but I think it's 11:15 a.m. Central Time Zone in the US which was the Chicago time zone if you're a city person um but it will run for 24 hours it is through Zoom you do have to register to be able to access it but it is a free event and we would love for everybody to um attend this so go register to attend we do not spam you you're welcome to unsubscribe if you need to after the event but we want to make sure that you get all the the things that you need we have an amazing keynote speaker Lany fold who is an accessibility attorney amazing that she's going to be doing the the keynote for us and then just 24 hours of really amazing uh I say amazing a lot phenomenal speakers uh 27% I believe don't quote me are act actually identify as having a disability themselves so we are practicing what we preach we have a just just 24 hours of amazing events please go register I got to say that here's an example of what a community can do well right it's just a blooming excellent piece of work this the website's great the community's great the topic is just who it's the right thing to be doing at the right time and thank you so much to anybody who's had their fingers in this pie it's absolutely brilliant so uh WP access 2024 WP accessibility. day and I'm looking at the schedule page and you can go and find out more about that and just to be clear Michelle it's totally free all online and it runs for a whole 24 hours so if you happen to uh be anywhere on the globe I imagine that's most of us apart from like seven people on the International Space Station they're all good um you'll be able to check this out and he said rather self serving me hold on.com um see if I can find it go to podcast there we go it is I did a uh I did a podcast episode um on the tavern with Isa waight B Hannon and Ryan bracie all about what you can expect so if you if you like if you enjoy getting things in an audio way uh check that out it's WP tavern. SLP podcast and it's episode number 138 uh so there we go right there is that now which are the other bits we're going to cherry pick in the minutes that are remaining uh no they're all to do with the story that we did so far so's that so's that so's that so's that gosh I think that the gender equality piece is super important okay thank you so much yeah I was just trying to in my own mind trying to Intuit it which one mattered most and here we here's all the other things that we could have talked about gosh look at it data views we got yast we've got wldn master class with Tim Nash we've got some new plugins to do with payments we've got a new Gutenberg UI kit with figma we got Pascal burler talking about how you can do media through rendering it through the browser gosh uh what else have we got data views and here we are this is where we're going to go now Michelle I am just going to hand this over to you because I know this is your area of expertise is that all right well yes of course so Shan McAn and Franchesca Morano have this wonderful project called WP do includes me and it's all about helping women climb the corporate ladder so why do we not have more leaders women in leadership across uh WordPress and across tech for example and so they put on um with Ray Mory earlier this year a wonderful survey I changed my word from amazing to wonderful a wonderful survey so to help us all have a better understanding of where exactly do we fall right now how many of our managers in WordPress are men women uh gender diverse uh or they didn't want to say at all and so this piece is kind of they wrap that all up and share the information that came in through that uh through that survey does it basically boil down to what we're looking at on the screen and apologies if you're consuming this audio which I know a lot of you do the day after I'll just read the stats very quickly we got a pie chart the pie chart has five different areas uh man is categorized as 55.4% um woman 23.8% not applicable 17.8 uh gender diverse 2% and prefer not to say actually doesn't have a percentage next to it but I'm guessing it's going to account for about something below one yeah um and so that's guess the takeaway is um the man slice is more than half of the party right it is and that not applicable is probably people who responded who are um entrepreneurs and solopreneurs so they don't have a manager so if you look at people who have management it becomes an actually higher percentage that are uh men in the positions of authority do you know Michelle uh so obviously I'm going to link to this in the show notes tomorrow but it's WP includes plural do me and then you can find it there but the the piece is entitled a call for change gender equality in WordPress businesses um you can see the title there uh you can go and find this for yourself is there a sort like a call to action of this or is this just here's the data now we'll yeah digest I mean there's a lot more questions on there um about why your company um helps women move forward how they you know there's there were so many questions to the survey there's so much more information but the whole point behind WP includes that me is a mentorship program where women in positions leadership Mentor women who want to be in positions of leadership over a set um course of time and help them understand the kinds of things that you need to be and put into place to help move yourself forward in an organization okay thank you very much indeed and was there anything else that we wanted to mention before we knock it on the head I'm just flicking around all the different bits and pieces did anybody else Taco I apologize you raised this for me to then hand it directly over to Michelle I apologize no but that's because Michelle's on the podcast today and she's a much better Advocate on this topic than I am because I'm in that 55% um being a meal manager um but I do think that it's important to point out that we're not at gender equality yet so that's why I highlighted this one um and you said do we have another one and I think actually the uh Edition by Michelle um The Pick of the week apologies is probably the best way to end today's uh podcast can I just jump in really quick before that yes I want to jump in really quick before that and say um because we haven't mentioned the rest of word Camp us this year I want to give a shout out to all of the organizers speakers volunteers that was a phenomenal event and one hour of that event has dominated our conversation for the last week but I really want to give um a shout out to the amazing teams that put that whole thing together so kudos to I don't know if I'm ever stepping my bounds I know we have a couple of organizers in the chat but as an organizer that happens to be on the show because I organized contributor day thank you community for all that you also did and brought to the event thank you for making it a fantastic time together and uh just a quick super humble brag 600 of our attendees um came to contribute a day and it it was also a really fantastic turnout I think percentage wise on par with Europe our attendance is a little bit lower than Europe but so from an organizer of the camp thank you community as well I I had dare I say it I think it was my favorite word Camp well there you go there I said it um I wasn't organizing this year maybe that's why it was your favorite I've always had a really nice time but there was something there was something about it I I've loved the venue there was a whole juer position of things and and I just thought it was brilliant it was really well organized everything was just right in the right place you could walk around and Collide With People not literally because there was just so much space it was great coffee so sorry sorry ceron we're really belaboring this aren't we you get to minut here the extra day the extra day was good too showcase day was really awesome just to see the different ways that WordPress is applied in The Wider world um and also like from my perspective you know these large organizations that we all look up to that do you know like the Big World brands right what was really cool was to see the passion and enthusiasm for WordPress from them that came out as a result they came in apprehensive in some regards about how they would be received by the WordPress community and they left wanting to get get more involved to do more for WordPress to talk about their stories more in WordPress and I thought that was just an incredible outcome so definitely but the real real prize of this week is definitely what I put in for the last thing so can we close on that that's we can but first before we close I think I think it's time to just we'll just take stop and uh we'll just go back to the cats remember the Chicken Little the sky is still up in the UK it's full of cloud you can't even see it here too okay um Peter ingol give us the skinny what's happening in Connecticut but um but I think it's important at this stage to you know just pay homage to all the cats all the dogs and dare I say it all the Sheep here they come another 30 seconds of sheep dogs and [Music] cats didn't do 30 seconds it was that's just it's too much besides that hippo that hippo is absolutely yeah you're giving it away you giv it away uh okay so Michelle found this cker uh it's an there's no way you're gonna get through this without like just freaking out smiling yeah what the heck here it comes right I don't even know how I'm going to play it to be honest I'm just gonna play the YouTube video so this is a YouTube video entitled oh endangered pygmy hippo at Tai zooo goes viral viral there's got to be something wrong with you on a profound level if you don't find this video enormously activating here we go just watch this I don't think you've got the sound I apologize there's no way I can it's so tiny oh even without sound it's so super cute look at it I thought it was a big one a teeny tiny one Michelle I never want I never wanted to hug a hippo before but now I do you have you have gladdened our heart I really appreciate it um as is always the case um as is always the case I thank you so much for joining us firstly let me get that video off otherwise I'm going to crun about it thank you to uh Courtney to Michelle to Taco to James and Cameron uh thank you to you uh anybody who made a comment we did manage to get to the end and as far as I could see no mod got thrown did any mod fly I think we managed to escape the mod flinging so thank you I know that what you know it's a heated topic it could have gone in all sorts of different directions and I appreciate you for you know keeping it uh keeping it sensible and all of those kind of things and um shall we shall we call it a day today on the uh you know should we go through the entire video as we as we round it off on today's episode I don't know if I can do yeah I think I can uh before we do have what's that sorry Cameron don't we have another 80 something hours to go oh yeah sorry that was yeah that was a tweet I put out a tweet saying this week show would be 90 hours long it would start today and finish on Thursday but uh I couldn't manage that uh that was as much as I could uh muster thank you so much right here we go let's do it I know you all know the drill come on get those hands I can only see one of Cameron's hands but it'll do never mind there we go thank you so much right in that case we're going to knock it on the head appreciate all your comments we'll be back uh next week with another show and you never know maybe this topic will still be going perhaps not but uh guests if you want to stick around this is going to take like a whole minute and a half but if you want to just have a at after the call is ended feel free that would be nice I'll see you all later bye-bye [Music] [Music] [Music], This Week in WordPress #309, WP Builds, 01j9421wp9c5p5j4d9b221azc0.