This Week in WordPress #345  ## Metadata - Author: [[WP Builds]] - Full Title: This Week in WordPress #345 - Category: #articles - Document Note: --- tags: - #WordPress - #WPBuilds - #AI Author: WP Builds live panel — Host: Nathan Wrigley; Co-hosts/Guests: Michelle Frechette, Dave Gray (“Friendly Web Guy”), Miriam Schwab (Head of WordPress, Elementor) Source: Live show — *This Week in WordPress #345* (WP Builds) Reference: YouTube stream & transcript; episode page date created: 2025-08-19 00:00 --- # Title: Building KPIs, Community Momentum, and AI Experiments — Notes from *This Week in WordPress #345* ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📖 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [♿ Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-diversity-equity-inclusion-and-belonging-assessment) - [🧩 Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🔍 DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🔍 SEO Evaluation](#-seo-evaluation) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### References: Include a list of sources consulted and cited in the article. ## 📝 Summary **What happened:** The WP Builds panel recapped fresh WordPress news: a burst of core project “mojo,” early agentic-AI experiments (the “Angie” plugin), community-run documentation (“WP Wiki”), new **Data Views** in Gutenberg, plugin business chatter (pricing and distribution), and broader “are we better or worse than last WCUS?” reflections. The tone stayed conversational, pragmatic, and lightly comic—typical WP Builds vibe. **Why it matters:** The show signals where practitioners are investing attention: AI copilots, editorial tooling in Gutenberg, community knowledge bases, and transparent plugin economics. These are levers for contributor onboarding, sustainable funding, and OSPO-grade governance. **Where to click:** Watch segments at timestamps linked below to jump straight to the topics. ## 📖 Main Content The episode mixes **practical demos** (time tracking “Click Tock,” invoice alignment) with **strategic takes** (role of AI in WordPress, community docs, UX in the site editor). Panelists highlight **Data Views** as a step toward scalable content management inside the editor, and they explore **plugin licensing** turbulence on WordPress.com—key for distribution strategies. ### 🗒️ Notes - 🎬 **Cold open & intros** — panel roll-call, show rhythm, and in-jokes - *Timeline:* [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0VtSN5aNWE&t=0)–[05:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0VtSN5aNWE&t=300) - Nathan frames the session; Michelle’s video lag quip; Dave’s “Friendly Web Guy” branding; Miriam returns as Elementor’s Head of WordPress. - Sets a casual, welcoming tone that encourages audience chat. - 🤖 **First agentic AI plugin (“Angie”)** — early access and possibilities - *Timeline:* [15:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0VtSN5aNWE&t=934) - Framed as *agentic* (goal-directed) assistance for content optimization and page improvements. - Early-access caveats: capabilities shifting as real users probe workflows. - Signals AI moving from code-assist to “ops-assist” for site owners. - 📚 **WP Wiki** — community-created documentation hub - *Timeline:* [23:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0VtSN5aNWE&t=1438)–[25:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0VtSN5aNWE&t=1535) - Introduced as a plugin/community initiative to **add articles** quickly. - Pitch: lower barriers to contribution; make docs editable where people already work (wp-admin). - Caveat: governance, moderation, and spam controls must match ease of editing. - 🧩 **Gutenberg roadmap + “mojo” returning** - *Timeline:* [29:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0VtSN5aNWE&t=1766), [41:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0VtSN5aNWE&t=2476) - Panel senses renewed velocity in core; features feel more coherent. - Focus on **Data Views** and blocks/API consistency; pushes the editor toward CMS-grade list screens. - ⏱️ **Click Tock** — time tracking + invoicing alignment - *Timeline:* [26:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0VtSN5aNWE&t=1608) - Dave’s tool: measure actual work and invoice accurately; aligns freelancer economics with reality. - Nice micro-case on indie plugin go-to-market (GTM). - 🗺️ **Are we better or worse since last WCUS?** - *Timeline:* [43:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0VtSN5aNWE&t=2582) - Healthy meta-question: quality of life for developers, docs, and UX. - Panel leans “better,” citing editor improvements and community momentum, while noting onboarding rough edges. - 🧮 **Data Views deep dive** — practical uses & current limits - *Timeline:* [46:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0VtSN5aNWE&t=2781), [52:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0VtSN5aNWE&t=3139), [56:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0VtSN5aNWE&t=3375) - Emerging list/table interfaces across post types; promises better content ops. - Open questions: custom schemas, bulk actions, performance on large sites. - 🧱 **Block “support,” site editor UX, and plugin distribution/pricing** - *Timeline:* [52:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0VtSN5aNWE&t=3139), [42:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0VtSN5aNWE&t=2538), [1:07:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0VtSN5aNWE&t=4071) - Debate over defaults vs. choice; reducing friction for non-dev users. - WordPress.com **business license** implications for plugin availability noted. > Transcript source (with many of the moments above): > (Also: :contentReference[oaicite:19]{index=19}) ## 📖 References - *This Week in WordPress #345* — YouTube stream (WP Builds). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0VtSN5aNWE - Episode page (show notes & links): WP Builds — “Where’s Miriam? — TWiW #345”. :contentReference[oaicite:22]{index=22} - Live schedule: https://wpbuilds.com/live/ (calendar & player). :contentReference[oaicite:23]{index=23} ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - **On agentic AI in WP (“Angie”)** *Original gist:* Early access shows AI can proactively suggest on-page improvements and workflow shortcuts; still evolving with user feedback. *Paraphrase:* *Angie* isn’t just autocomplete—it chases goals. As testers push it, the tool keeps changing shape, hinting at a future where AI nudges site owners toward faster, smarter content updates. - **On Data Views momentum** *Original gist:* New list/table interfaces across the editor spark optimism; the project feels lively again. *Paraphrase:* Data Views are turning the editor into a proper control room. With this direction, the core project feels energized, and everyday content ops could get a lot saner. ## 📰 Newsletter **This Week in WP: AI helpers grow up, Data Views get real, and plugins mind the money.** - **Learn:** *Agentic AI* lands in early access (“Angie”). It aims for tasks, not just text—think page fixes and smarter checklists. [15:34 →](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0VtSN5aNWE&t=934) - **Build:** **Data Views** roll into Gutenberg, promising cleaner list screens across post types. Power users cheer; implementers want schemas and bulk actions. [46:21 →](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0VtSN5aNWE&t=2781) - **Contribute:** **WP Wiki** experiments with docs in wp-admin—fast to add, but governance matters. [23:58 →](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0VtSN5aNWE&t=1438) - **Ship:** Dave Gray’s **Click Tock** tackles time tracking that matches invoices—freelancers, rejoice. [26:48 →](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0VtSN5aNWE&t=1608) - **Debate:** Are we **better or worse** since the last WCUS? The panel votes “better,” with a side of “let’s fix onboarding.” [43:02 →](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0VtSN5aNWE&t=2582) ## ✅ Action Items - **For your advocacy & OSPO path** - **Codify “Community Docs in the Dashboard.”** Pilot a *WP Wiki*-style contrib flow for Training/Docs: issue templates, moderation queue, and badgeable micro-tasks. Map this to **metrics* - Summary: Join us LIVE for the 'This Week in #WordPress' show. It's fun, and we'd love your comments! Starts at 2pm UK time. https://wpbuilds.com/live Join Nathan Wrigley, Michelle Frechette, Tim Nash and Miriam Schwab. - URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0VtSN5aNWE [Music] Testing. 1 2 3 [Music] [Music] [Music] Hello. Hello. Hello. Good morning. Good evening. Good afternoon. All of the other goods them as well. Good everything. Hello. It's episode number 345 of this week in WordPress. That's quite a lot. I don't know how many years that is. Anybody do that calculation quickly? Uh it's quite a few years. Thanks Dave. I appreciate it. Um but we're back. We're here every Monday pretty much apart from you know when there's holidays and things like that. But we are away next week because uh I'm getting on a plane and heading over to Portland in Oregon uh to go to Word Camp in the US. So we will be we'll be absent from next week. But barring any things like that, we're here pretty much every week. Really appreciate it if you want to join us in the comments. That's what keeps this show going. It's lovely to have these guests, but it's also lovely to have the comments. Do you see how much sucking up I'm doing already? Um head to this URL. Go here. wpbuilds.comlive. Uh, thanks D. What a pro. Look at him. Straight in there with the finger. Um, that's going to be the show title already. That's the winner. That already. Yeah, he's straight in there with the finger. It doesn't sound good. Uh, wpbuilds.comlive. Bring your friends and relations and all of that with you. Uh, and drop us a comment. It really keeps the show going forward. Really appreciate anybody that does that. Once again, wpbuilds.comlive. If you do end up there, there's a video player uh probably where you're watching this or you might be watching on YouTube. But if you go to that page, then uh you got two options. On the right hand side on a desktop or underneath on a mobile is a YouTube embedded comments. So you need to be logged into Google for that. If you don't want to do that, if you're not into Google, then um go to the player itself and in the top right hand corner is a little button which says live chat or something like that and you can you can post your comments anonymously in there. So, one more time, wpbuts.com live. Okay, as always, I'm joined by three people. I have to say um Tim Nash was going to be with us, but he's not feeling very well. So, Tim, I hope that you get better. Um hope you're feeling better soon. He said he was uh heading straight back to bed. So uh it sounds pretty pretty nasty. But yeah, good luck. I hope that you're feeling all right later. Um stepping into the breach for that is Dave. And we'll get to know Dave in just a moment. But before that over there, co-host for today, Michelle Fchette. Hello. >> Hello. >> Your uh your video for my part is laggy, but your audio is not. So that's completely fine. Sometimes it's just bad for one and not for the other. when it all ends up getting recorded on the other end, it usually comes out all right. But how you doing anyway? >> I am doing very well, thank you. >> Good, good, good, good. Uh, I will read Michelle's bio. Here we go. Michelle Fcher, as you can see on the screen, is the executive director of Post Status. In addition to that, Michelle is the podcast barista at WP Coffee Talk, co-founder of Underrepresented in Tech, creator of WP Speakers and WP Career Pages. She also co-founded sponsor mewp and speed network online. She is of course an author, influencer, and a frequent organizer and speaker at WordPress and tech events. And she's living outside of Rochester, New York, where she is into taking photos of nature. If you want one URL to sort of sum it all up, head to meet Michichelle.online. And in fact, in just a minute, we'll find out a new thing that Michelle's launched because she's got so much spare time. So, we'll find out about that. >> I've learned the tr I've learned the tr the trick though to getting things done as partners. If you don't do it all yourself, I can get done so much faster. >> Yeah. I nearly once wrote a book called How Not to Start Stuff. And uh but obviously the the clue is in the title. I never got around to it. That's actually quite a good joke. I like that >> book on procrastination was never published. >> Yeah, my idea was to produce basically a blank book uh with no advice in it at all. It was just like, you know, don't start. I'm I was terrible when I was a bit younger. I used to start things all the time. And honestly, this is tr this is not entirely true, but it's basically true. This podcast is the single thing in my life that I can point to and say, "Yeah, I kept doing it." I've been a real creature of kind starting things, losing interest, doing something else in in all sorts of ways, you know, career, uh, and what have you. And so, um, yeah, there we go. That's the one thing I've started, right? Okay. Dave Gray is joining us today. He's the one that's stepping in for Tim Nash. And so, I appreciate that last minute. Really appreciate it, Dave. How you doing? Yeah, good to be back yet again. >> Yeah, thank you. Um, I'll read Dave's bio, um, which was put together in just a moment. Dave has a six sense that he'd be on the interwebs today when he put his goo Google t-shirt on from Word Camp EU this morning. He's a Is it still on? I can't see. Yes. No, maybe. Um, he's the man behind Fred Friendly Web Guy Plugins, which has recently had a rebrand rebrand from our WP plugins. Uh, and he's, uh, as it kept having to be spent out. Dave is still buzzing from his first sale of Click Talk, his latest plug-in. Bravo, Dave. We'll show that on the screen in a moment, but that's my feeling. Yeah, >> I'd like selfless promotion. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, no, that's great. That is great. And finally, uh, Miriam Schwab. It's been a while. How There she's down there somewhere. Um, how you doing, Miriam? >> I'm good. How are you? >> Yeah, good. Good. Um, Miriam is the head of WordPress Elementor where she connects the company with the broader WordPress ecosystem and community. She's a longtime contributor to the WordPress space, active in community events and discussions and a frequent speaker at word camps and industry conferences around the world. Before joining Elementor, Miriam co-founded Stratic, which was a static WordPress platform focused on security and performance, which was later acquired by Elementor. Earlier in her career, she founded and led one of Israel's top WordPress development agencies. Yeah, nice. You see, this whole thing is full of people who have managed to do loads in their life. And then there's me. Um, >> I thought of another thing you started. >> Oh, >> your family. >> Yes, I managed to stick with that. Yeah, >> they're still around. >> Yeah, they're still here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I try so hard to uh Yeah, with that as well. Yeah, exactly. Um, okay. So, thank you. There's our panel today. As I said, if you want to join us, uh, head to wpbuilds.comlive. We'll get into the bits and pieces in a moment. Let's just see if anybody's dropped in a comment. A couple of people have. That's really nice. Thank you for joining us. This must be Ryan. Uh, Ryan from Influence WP is joining us from Sunny and Mile Charlotte, North Carolina in the USA. Thank you. Daveden joining us. I'm imagining he's in uh Oh, where's Sakoto, Nigeria? David's normally in London because he comes to the WordPress London meetup that I help co-organize. So, uh, that's interesting. Oh, nice. David, thanks for joining us all the way from Nigeria. Elliot Sourby is literally down the road from me. If I had enormous Thorlike hands, I could throw a pebble and he would be able to catch it. He's about 10 miles away, which is pretty close. >> And yet, when's the last time you saw him? >> Never seen Elliot ever. No, I'm not entirely sure he's real. Uh he's got a plugin though, so I think I think it's quite likely he is. He's got a great plugin uh Turnstyle. If you want to put Turnstyle from Cloudflare onto your protect your WordPress forms and things like that, Elliot is the responsible uh RelyWP or WP Rely. I can't remember which way around. Michelle Fchette, there you go. There's Michelle. 64 degrees Fahrenheit, 18° in sunny Rochester. Marcus, hello. What's that? >> I said, "Finally, we're not baking here." >> No, exactly. We got the same today. It's cloudy. It's typical English weather. Uh Marcus Bennett says, "Only a week to go until I get to see your beautiful faces in person." Happy Mon Happy Monday. Thank you. That's really nice. >> Dave Don joining us again. Uh Dave has other names in today's show. Oh, friendly web guy. Dave a team gray. What's the What's the significance of that? What do you mean? >> You need some help and you had to call someone. >> Oh, got it. Okay. Anybody under the age of 30, don't even just not >> It was a really bad TV show, but it was it was addictive. I used to watch every episode. >> Uh, this is true about me, says Dave. And I have plans to start so many things, but never get around to them. This could be a whole show, right? Just talk about all the things that you never finish. >> Yeah. Good morning, says James. James Laauo. Nice. Uh, taking a nice talk walk, I'm guessing, around town right now. 63 degrees outside. and Jackson uh from a barmy southern Italia. Thank you. Keep the comments coming in. Really appreciate it. That's great. Right, here we go. Here's all the bits and pieces. First of all, some self-promotion. This is our website. I do this every week. Put your email address into this little form field here and we will spam you like no other company has done ever before. This you're it's going to you're going to regret it so bad. No, don't. Uh put your email in there and we'll send you two emails a week. one on a Tuesday when we parcel what we're about to do now as a podcast episode and then one on a Thursday when we release the regular podcast episode and you can see from here the um the Tim Nash who was supposed to be on the show uh it was the latest episode we had a we had an episode where we talked about the rise of AI in the WordPress space so you can go and check that out. The other thing to mention is and Dave thankfully has stepped into the breach here. If you would like to be a guest on the show, I'm trying this experiment out. I tried it out last week and I had quite a lot of people fill it out. So, I'm doing it again and maybe after this one we'll stop. If you fancy coming on to the show and you'd like to volunteer yourself as a guest, head to this URL. It's wpbuilds.com and then forward and then the acronym for this show this week in WordPress, TWWIW. I should have had a slide for that. wpbuilds.comtwiw. fill out the form and um yeah, we'd love to have you on. If you're if you're capable of filling out a form, willing to talk about WordPress and can start stuff, then uh then then join us. Uh we'd love to have you on. So yeah, wpbuilds.comwiw. Okay, frontloading the show this week are the guest contributions. So so, so, so the first one up is, can you believe it? Michelle has a new thing. Um, this one is called WP Wiki. Tell us more, Michelle. >> So, along the lines of procrastination, I have owned the URL for over 10 years. >> Oh, that is a long procrastination. Yeah. Yeah, >> it was. I by myself did not possess the development chops to actually pull this site off. And so I at the same time that I was reaching out to different people to start things like sponsor BWP, thank you Marcus, and Speed Network online, thank you June. Um I reached out to Corey Moss and said, "Hey, would you have any interest in working on this project with me?" And so he said, "Heck yeah, I got time. Let's do it." And so we decided we would start working on this. And we had a lot of meetings to talk about what it should look like and how it should behave. Excuse me. and we soft rolled it out with a few people to test it um do some beta testing and worked out some of the bugs while we did that and now it's available to the greater community at large. It is a wiki that should be and is so far um contributed to by our community and so the whole idea is anybody can register and then create an article. So, uh, Miriam, go ahead and put Elementor in there because this is not the, you know, this is not something that is run by, um, WordPress.org or WordPress.com. And so, the community can put anything in that they want. It is moderated. So, if it gets spammy or if it's too salesy, we're going to say, "Can you please rewrite this so that it doesn't look like you're trying to sell us something as opposed to be informational?" Every listing should be about what you are, not trying to sell what you are. And so the whole idea is you can add an article in there. There is one for WP builds I believe already. >> Oh yeah. Some some clown wrote one for that. Yeah. >> But I will say if you go back to that art add an article page enough people were perplexed with what to do and how to do it that I actually created a video on Friday. So you can uh if you are a little confused about it go ahead and reg. It tells you how to register add articles and you can sponsor articles. And sponsoring an article allows you to lock that article. So, for example, if Elementor wanted to put um a post, an article in here about what Elementor is using their own branding, of course, then somebody else because it's a wiki could go in and edit it, but you could sponsor the article, which would allow it to be locked, which means other people can't edit your article. So, we did put a little bit of monetization in there that way um to allow companies to maintain their branding, especially since some companies, not Elementor, but some companies do sometimes have a little bit of a negative connotation in the community and people have a ch a tendency to want to um poo on them. I will say that we wanted to make it so that this is not a place where people um can maliciously um go in and edit anybody else's anything or not even maliciously but mistakenly change things to incorrect information. And so we're allowing you to sponsor your own um if if if I wanted to write an article about Elementor, I could not lock that article because I do not have an Elementor email address. So we are moderating these. we are making sure that everything is on the up and up. I'm only using Elementor because Miriam's in the chat today. Um, but it's true for any other organization. And so that's the whole idea is that it should be a repository of articles about about information history. I've put some articles in there already about, you know, the difference between posts and pages and WordPress.org and WordPress.com and things like that. So that it's not just a listing of people and organizations. It should be something that is informative for the whole community. I think if you scroll, I think we already have four pages of articles. >> Yeah, it looks like it. >> Yeah, four or five. >> Yeah. Submissions automatic pressable. Obviously, I submitted something um to sort of test it. Although >> Bob did. >> I was completely incapable of understanding what I was supposed to do and so submitted something which was completely off the point. And uh perhaps you and Bob are the reer perhaps you and Bob are the reason there's a video explaining how to do all of that. >> I I have the capacity to read. I just can't do it. You know, if I if I get a letter from the bank, it's like, you know, I read I wish that I wish bank statements and things like that had a TLDDR at the top cuz I just can't get through stuff like that. So, I apologize and then I resubmitted. >> Oh, great. >> The URL is wpwiki.org. Nice. Like you say, you've had that one for a while. wpwiki.org. No hyphens or anything like that. >> And you can go register an account and then obviously follow the add an article link. And hopefully over time we'll have >> yeah some uh some place to go if you're inexperienced with WordPress or whatever your product or service may be. Thank you. That's great. >> And if you have feedback, we're absolutely still in the beginning stages. Happy to receive feedback. And before you move on, I do want to mention today is the last day to sign up for WP Trailbuddies. So, if you are coming to Word Camp US, I do have more veterans um signed up for this than I than I have um newbies, but that doesn't matter. Anybody who's interested in making a connection and having a new friend, I am looking for more people to do this. Today is the last day. Tomorrow, you will get your emails announcing to each other who your trail buddies are so that next week when you arrive at Word Camp US, you have the ability to uh meet up and have a friend before you even begin. So, just to summarize, Michelle's initiative here is to um is to combine people who've been and have experience and, you know, don't have the heebie-jebies about turning up and wandering around and being a part of that event. Uh for people who perhaps have a little bit more of a concern, maybe it's the first time you've done it and you're, I don't know, you just feel that you would like a bit of support, then uh WP Trailbodies, which you can find at wptrabodies.wordpress.com, um if you head over there last day today to get yourself signed up. So you're you're more looking for attendees who've not been there than people who Correct. >> Right. Okay. Okay. >> Okay. >> But we will do this again for future camps. So if it's something you're interested in and you're going to Asia or Europe or maybe we'll open it for Canada. Uh it all remains to be seen, but yes. >> So appropo of that, uh Elliot Sby says he's considering going to Word Camp Europe next year. Not too sure yet. Maybe we'll finally meet there. Oh, right. Yeah. Well, I maybe I could be your I could be your trail buddy. Uh, Elliot and see if you actually exist. You're paper thin and >> I'll probably meet him before you do, which will be the funniest part. That's right. Oh, like random family news. This is great. James Laauo his son turned seven today. Happy birthday to your son. That's lovely. A nice piece of news. Oh, great. Um, okay. Let's move on. Let's find out a little bit about something that Miriam is bringing to the story today. So, this is called Angie. I presume I'm pronouncing that correctly. The first agentic AI plug-in for WordPress. First of all, Miriam, for people that don't know what Agentic means, just clear that bit up because I I think I'm confused by what Agentic means. >> It's a good question and I keep trying to explain it badly. >> So, I will try again. >> Try goodly. Well, I'll explain what Angie does and then maybe through that it explains what it mean like why it's agentic. So, uh Angie acts like your website building and management buddy and um sits with you in your WordPress admin and allows you to ask it or tell it to do all sorts of things that uh you want to do in WordPress. The advantage of working with Angie to do that is there's a few things. One is let's say something there's something in WordPress that you know how to do it but it involves like five to 10 clicks to get there whatever you can just be like Angie change my perlink structure or Angie add a user or you know all that kind of stuff and it does it very quickly. You can also do bulk actions. But uh another thing that's cool about Angie is that it understands she we're calling her she she understands context. Um and so you if you don't necessarily know exactly what you want to do or how you want something to turn out, you can give it like information and then she'll like think for you and suggest changes to make and even make them for you in your site. Um, so it can save a lot of time, help people do things they couldn't do before because, you know, interfaces can be overwhelming, hard to figure out, there's a learning curve and things like that. >> Uh, it makes things much more accessible to everyone like managing their site, but not just managing it. I think it will give people the tools to have greater success with their website because it can also, for example, analyze statistics, analytics, um, activity on your site, things like that, and give you suggestions on ways to improve it and do better, optimize your pages, etc. Like there's there's a lot that that can happen with with Aentic AI tools in general, and specifically with Angie that it's now in early access, so we're seeing how people are using it and what it's capable of doing, and it's it's really quite cool, I have to say. Um, speaking of the early access bit, Daveden uh has just made this comment. Sorry, it's going to Oh, no. That's great. It says, um, what's the timeline for the public release? >> So, first of all, if you want to try it out and test it, obviously not on a production site, um, you can just sign up for the early access or be in touch with me and and we can let you try it out and we love your feedback if you are testing it. The, uh, public release is scheduled for September, let's say early to midepptember. At work campus US, our entire focus is going to be on Angie. So our booth really >> everything you're gonna see our booth is completely oriented towards Angie and AI and all of our activity there. Um even our swag will be around AI and specifically around Angie. We'll be doing demos. We're going to be collaborating with some other uh sponsors who are there. We'll be at their booths as well um demoing Angie for uh attendees and whoever wants to see. So, we're excited to show people what it can do. >> I'm presuming because you've built it, I'm presuming it hooks into some of the various different things that are unique within your, you know, page builder. So, for example, I'm guessing it can do Elementor type things which maybe a a generic AI wouldn't be able to do. >> So, it has great excellent capabilities when it comes to Elementor, but actually uh Angie's agnostic. >> So, >> yeah, I was looking at the logos here. I can see that you've got the WordPress logo, the Gutenberg logo, the Woo logo, and obviously the Elemental logo. Yeah, >> it works with all of those. You can uh use it to manage your Gutenberg site. Um, we implemented some Woo capabilities that are really quite cool. Also timesaving bulk update, you know, products, change products, add sales and coupons and all sorts of things like that. It also works already uh to a certain degree with ACF. Um and hopefully it we should be able to announce some other integrations by the time uh work camp us rolls around which is very soon. Um some other products in the space are creating their own MCPS. So MCPs are their own kind of again it's hard to explain these things Google it >> look into it and get their capabilities and their tools to work with Angie. So, so that's uh that's coming as well. But obviously, yes, uh with Elementor, it has very very strong uh and powerful capabilities. >> I I want to ask loads more questions, but it'll become an interview episode about Angie. So, let's leave that for another time. We can definitely do a podcast about it. But, um yeah. Okay. So, there you go. At the moment, early access, if you go to elementor.compages and then the last three words are hyphenated. Angie, early access, and an is gi. I'll put a link in the show notes so that you can find that. But um >> if you want to try to remember Angie, just think the Rolling Stone song. Angie. >> Oh yeah. Nice. Nice. >> Well, it's been a long time since we've had singing on this podcast and I thoroughly recommend it. That's great. Thank you so much. That's brilliant. There you go. Um Ross said, uh what did Ross say? Oh, I thought it was an Angie comment. Ross Wintle, hello. Uh it's this time I'm on a Yeah, I'm on holiday and I can also tune in. Good grief, Ross, is all I could say. It's your holiday and you're tuning into this. That's superb. Thank you. You get a a biscuit or a badge or something. When I see you next time, I'll I'll pretend like I've made you a badge and pat you on the back or something like that. Thank you. Um, okay. Last one. We had Dave on last week and he mentioned this, but I thought he's here. He's here at short notice and he's obviously sold a license, so he's happy. Click version one. What What is Click Talk? uh a simple time tracker that sits inside the WordPress install. So it's pretty much aimed for site builders. So if you're working on client site a you can track what you're doing in there for building pages, posts or maintenance things correctly track your time. So when it comes the end of the month, you've got to invoice, you don't need to think how much time did I actually spend. So you actually invoice the correct amounts and make yourself hopefully more money. >> Nice. >> And by buying a license means some money which is a lot. I like it. That's great. What was really interesting is about two and a half weeks ago, I did a podcast episode with Dave and he told us all about the latest stuff that he's doing and all of that. Then and then he released this and I said to him, he didn't mention that. He said, "No, I hadn't thought about it then." Uh he he kind of came up with it about 12 days ago and just thought, "Well, I'll just crack on with that and build." >> Yeah. Just spare a couple of days because when kickoff like let's build something new. We always do marketing or other promotion stuff. like let's build more things. >> Talented people like you. It's uh it's great. So there it is. You can see it the the URL. You've got to go to Dave's website which is friendlywebguy.co.uk. That's where he's doing all of his marketing endeavors now. And uh if you click on the little plugins bit, then it's just there. Click top amongst all of the other different bits and pieces that you can find. Most of them, I think it's fair to say, had to do with the the WordPress admin and tidying that up and making life a little bit easier on the on the inside of your WordPress install. Yep. Okay, there we go. Right, let's move on to the WordPressy stuff. Here we go. Um, so this is on make.wordpress.org and it's a summation of some bits and pieces which may or may not drop into Gutenberg new in Gutenberg and we get this piece of content quite a lot, but this came out just the last couple of days. And I've just highlighted a couple of things. You can read it yourself. Again, links in the show notes, but um data views. So imagine you're in your WordPress website and at the moment you've got this fairly poor set of data view. So if you go to a post, you can either view it as like I don't know, you can view it in just one of a couple of ways. The media library again there's just a couple of options. They're fairly constrained, a little bit unusable really in the modern world. Data views is an endeavor to make everything searchable and filterable. So you'll be able to come up with your own view of your own WordPress data. I don't know, let's say you've got a real estate website and you want to just filter down the list with houses only over a certain amount. That'll all be possible in the native version of WordPress, the vanilla version of WordPress. And a couple of things which have dropped recently is the you can have group results, which is kind of cool. So, you could say there's there's an image on the screen. If you can see that, that's great. If not, then I'll describe it. It's the idea of this website's obviously got something to do with planets and you can group content based upon I don't know whether a planet is a gas giant for example or an ice giant in other words you can put content into little groups and data views will show that really really useful I think in certain scenarios kind of thing you might want to do on the front end but now it's going to be available on the back end so that's kind of cool um there's also a I don't really know really what the intention of this is but writing mode which is kind of like a like a distraction-free mode is probably the best way to describe it in WordPress. That's been there for a little while, but now you'll be able to shuffle through a bunch of different styles. So, you'll be able to click a button and it will just swap out automatically the font for random fonts and things. Again, not sure what the utility of that is, but you know, it might be the vibe that you want. And that's kind of all I had from that, but you can go and check that out. Does anybody want to mention anything on there that especially that data views thing? If not, I'll move on. That's a big no. I'll move on in that case. Okay. Next one then is um is the developer article and um Justin Tadlock typically writes this piece. He wrote this a couple of days ago and it's a few bits and pieces that are coming into core. Uh we mentioned this previously. So we've mentioned a lot of the things that are coming up in this article. So I'll only mention a couple that we haven't mentioned on previous shows. And very keen to know what your thoughts are panel on this. Um, do we need more blocks in the basic install of WordPress because there seems to be a push at the moment to get a ton more in. Uh, so Matias, yes, got his name right there. Thank you. That's the first time this year. Um, and he has basically suggested that if if you want to push WordPress out to inexperienced users and their purpose is to do writing and build websites, the blocks that we've got at the moment don't satisfy that and it's quite frustrating because you might need to go out and find find a third party suite. Wouldn't it be better if there was a basic implementation of just about everything that really you need? And uh, so this is the idea is to come up with loads and loads of new blocks that would satisfy that. So, I think that's kind of interesting. And then there's some stuff about block bindings. What do you reckon to this one, though? Let's just stick with this one. Does WordPress have enough in it already? To my mind, when you look at the UI of a vanilla WordPress install and you look at the array of blocks, there's already way too many. And most of them are completely useless for just about every use case. Unless, for example, I don't know, you have a podcast that you want to launch with Pocketcasts or you want to launch Vimeo videos. There's blocks for all of the and Animoto. What the heck? How is that in there? I don't even know if that service still exists, but there's a block for that. Um, all of these different things. However, the endeavor here is to get things so that writers and website builders have all of the things at their disposal. I don't know, maybe it's, maybe it's not. It's over to you if you want to talk about that. Can you imagine if the WordPress plug-in repository stopped at 20,000 plugins because that was enough? >> Yeah. Yeah, I know what you mean. >> So, >> so I mean there we're constantly evolving. So, it makes sense that we would continue to evolve with blocks as well. >> Yeah. I mean, some of them if I go to the um let me see if this is the actual article. Let me just pull this one up if it's the GitHub. No, that's not the one. D. Here we go. It might be this one. Let's just see if we can find Yeah, here we go. So, here's some of the suggestions. And they are fairly basic, right? Like the icon block that there is no icon block in core. Honestly, like maybe you are deliberately not using icons on your website, but probably you are if you're building a website. I imagine that icons are a part of it somewhere. Uh we talked about this one last week, the playlist blocks, sliders, and car carousels. I still don't know what stretchy text is, but anyway, that's apparently a thing. Uh, tabs and accordians, mega menus, marquee block, so that's like scrolling text, you know, that sort of goes from one side of the screen to the other, left to right, right to left, table of contents, time to read, breadcrumbs, dialogue block. Doesn't this seem like it should have been in there from the very start? I mean, even my like CRM that I use has got stuff like this, and it's not a writing interface, but it's got this kind of stuff in it. >> They all seem useful. Um, if WordPress is moving in a direction where you shouldn't have to know how to code things, right, like time to read, then it's great for there to be a block for it. Um, >> a lot of these exist already in Elementor, for example, and they exist because people wanted them. and use them. You know, not everybody uses everything, but you know, we also don't I remember the days I mean, I I think we're still in those days of the themes that had 1,000 options and features. Remember, >> it's like you don't want to be like overloading the product with too much stuff, but um assuming blocks are being developed in a way that you know it's only activating what you need when you need it hopefully, then why not? It can be helpful to someone. I mean, also in my early days of building with WordPress, I remember being thrilled when I found a plugin that could do something for me like easily without having to code it. And I just dropped it in and I got the functionality and uh with blocks being the direction for the present and the future, it's it's great for to have all these options. I think it only becomes overload if they're not well organized and findability is hard and surfacing great ones is also like not happening. Right? Right. In the plugin repo, we have some measure of popularity, right? There's a popular tab. Someone's like, I don't know where to start. And then they can go there and see what is most widely used. So maybe something like that could happen with blocks to just help people get started or help people find things they want. But um I don't I don't think like uh there's a reason to limit the types and number of blocks. If they serve people and give them functionality and they're useful, great. >> Yeah. I mean especially the things I spec this is talking about core as well. So what would ship with core a lot of the third party vendors of blocks I don't know if the same is true with elementor but there's like a whole UI for switching things on and off. So you go to the I don't know like the available blocks page or something like that and you just kind of turn off I'm never going to use that never going to use that. Never going to use that. And you do that one time and then presumably as a new block would be added to core that would be something that you would be redirected to do again. Look, we've got this new block. We've switched it on, but remember you can go back here and switch it off. Then you don't get that kind of overwhelm where you're, you know, the sidebar is full of stuff that you're never using. Um, maybe an experience like that would be quite cool. Anyway, Dave, Michelle, if you've got anything on that, just piping. >> I was going to say if you had more blocks in there and had some other UI to say here, real real common blocks and some other site experimental ones, you could say enable those experimental ones or more niche bits on that side. Then, yeah, it would make things easier to see on that side. Yeah, I agree with what you said. >> Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Michelle, >> I already said myself. >> Okay. Um, in which case I I think I think that one particular, so Justin's obviously written a piece all about the different things that are happening in the developer community. That seems like a good one and it feels like it's got a little bit of traction going. Um, as always, Justin's Justin's written a a very long article including um updates to WordPress coding standards. It's now on version 3.2. 2. So if you're a developer, there's some information in there. There's information about playground and block bindings, but we've covered most of that in various different podcasts. So we'll we'll press on from there. But I will also link in the show notes to this GitHub article. It's in the Gutenberg repository and it's uh it's the the number is 71026. So you can go and find that if you want to follow on from there. Okay. Oh, Miriam disappeared for a moment, but she's back. There she is. Sorry. >> No, it's all right. No, it's fine. Um, okay. Next one. We're off to Twitter. We don't often feature things on Twitter, but here we are. Um, this is a post which was written by Jeff Chandler. If you don't know Jeff, Jeff back in the day um started the WP Tavern. It was then bought by Automatic and people like Justin and Sarah Gooding stepped in and um what have you. But um Jeff has written a a piece which kind of provoked me at least anyway to have some thoughts about it and he says this. See what you think dear audience members and panelists as we approach the one year mark since the keynote at Word Camp US 2024 and we'll cover that maybe a little bit later. Do you feel that WordPress is in a better or worse space? So it's it's kind of a closed question. You've got a binary choice there, but you know you can obviously add your own things. Um, and then a few people kind of replied with some thoughtful things. So, Courtney, who's been on the show a few times, uh, has replied with it's very different in some parts of the world. In Asia, few dared ask Matt or discuss such topics. In Europe, the room was, and she's used the word appall that the handling of project sustainability or regard for EU regulation. In North America, the concern is still around governance and privacy. Katie Keith again been on the show a few times. She thinks it's worse. I think usage is about the same but the reputation is worse and people aren't as passionate about it as they were. As a community we need to work together to advocate and it uh advocate about it still being the ultimate CMS. So basically this is the one year on piece. So we're one year on since all of the bits and pieces happened at Word Camp US. We don't need to go over that old ground. What's your thoughts? What do you think? Do you think WordPress is still the space it is? Um, I'm going to put my thoughts in quickly so that you don't feel quite so I don't know intimidated by that question perhaps. I think that um it's possibly in a in a slightly worse state from a community point of view. And what I mean by that is it definitely it definitely caused some disagreement with a lot of people. You know, a lot of people sort of fell out of love. There was a lot of politicking and a lot of people felt ostracized by that whole thing. It does feel like it's in a better place now than it was a few months ago. If you look at the core project, the actual software, that feels like it took a bit of a hit for a few months, but now it feels like it's really back and there's loads of mojo. Um, if you just follow what's going on in WordPress news and things like that, that's way way down than it was 12 months ago. In order to put this piece together, I I troll through just about everything and I picked my favorite 20 bits and pieces. A year ago, every week I would troll through hundreds of articles because there were hundreds to troll through. Now, maybe there's 30 or something like that. So, the the interest from people publishing content around that space is just it's just it fell off a cliff and it never really came back. So, it's a bit of a mixed bag. My personal opinion is it's the software is going nowhere. I feel very bullish about it. I'm confident. I'm still attending events and you know helping co-organize the WordPress the WLDDN the meetup that we have in London and um but I I think Jeff's got a point. It does feel maybe that question is worth asking. So over to you. Your turn. What do you reckon? >> Well, I guess I'll jump in. Um I I think uh we're at a place now a year in from from last year where there's been some humility that has kind of been uh digested by a lot of the industry. um where we can't take for granted our leading position. We can't take for granted that things will just continue to be the same. You know, even before that there were already signs of that were concerning of um I like the way you described it going from like 100 articles to 30. So, so it sounds like it was good then, but it seemed like there was less enthusiasm, less passion for the project, an aging project. We're aging. I'm aging. I've been in this space for a long time and that means I'm like 20 years older than when I started. So, um, so already there were signs of concern and then, you know, this upheaval didn't help, but I think it has led to a kind of regrouping. um and more positive proactivity in a way, which is hard to quantify, but that's just my sense. I did feel like it also led a lot of people to be like, I can't wait for others to do things. And my sense was there was like an upsurge of people creating really cool tools and innovation for WordPress since last year in a way that I didn't feel like we had seen like all these random but I don't mean random in a bad way plugins just being added to the repo. >> Um people creating numerous plugins for the repo. Uh Jonno Alderson comes to mind as someone that created a few that were are really useful and cool. And um I'm not saying anything about him not doing it before anything, but like he's just an example of what I felt like there was more building and creativity and creation around our space um as a result of I think all of us kind of feeling like we can't it's not it's not on someone else to do it. Like if we want WordPress to be what it was then we need to build and there's like pain points to be solved and it and it helps. Uh >> Miriam froze for me. Is she frozen for you as well? >> Yep. >> Deep in thought. >> Yeah, she is deep in thought. She'll probably come Oh, she's sort of trying to come back through. >> Oh, bless her >> on the audio. She's going to come through as a bit of a Dalek. Um, what I'm going to do >> is I'm going to ask Miriam to refresh. Michelle, would you mind in the private I don't know if she'll be looking in the private chat. I'm going to mute her in case she comes back and I'll pass I'll pass the bat on to Dave quickly. >> What do you think, Dave? anything on that? >> Yeah, probably is in the same sort of basket because I'm still trying to invest time and effort into the WordPress space. I think it, as you say, it's not going anywhere, but yeah, it's taken a big hit and people aren't quite recovering from it, but the kind of the bruising starting to heal a bit and people are kind of not moving on but coping with kind of the new world and Bum said if we need innovation, we've got to start doing some stuff ourselves and stop taking things to sort of granted. So yeah, hopefully the community can sort of heal and other key people might need to kind of try and make amends on that side. But >> what what's kind of curious to me is that you you've you've jumped into like plugins, right, in the in the much more recent past. And so for you, this debate is far well maybe it's not more important, but it's certainly it's very very raw because obviously if WordPress were to be in decline, that would directly affect what you've just embarked upon. >> Yeah. >> Does that does any of that kind of stuff keep you awake at night? Do you you know, because everybody would like to be on a rising tide, right? You get in early, you hope the tide's going to rise, you go with it, the customer base swells and all of that. And it feels like basically what Jack um Jeff is saying is that over the last year the tide has either stayed where it was or it's gone out a little bit. I think maybe that's where he's trying to go. Does that stuff bother you? Do you have thoughts around that? >> Yeah, because that's why I kind of while most of my efforts more plug-in based, I still kind of got my little mini ecosystem around kind of websites in general. So most of it is WordPress related, but there's a couple of side bits that just more general website related on that side to try and diversify slightly on there. So not as much as Katy and Barn 2 for going across to Shopify. But yeah, it's just kind of like a gentle toe in the water for another side project so that should the tide go out further then they can kind of diversify or basically sort of hedge your bets. But yeah, as you say, WordPress isn't going anywhere. it might just get a bit more less ideal press on that side, but there's still people doing new sites on there from us old folks still doing new sites on that side. So, frankly, even if I could get like 0.1% of the market share on some of those plugins, I'd be quite happy on that side. >> Yeah. Okay. Um, thank you, Michelle. Anything you want to add? >> Yeah. So, I mean, if you go by the number of projects I've launched just this year alone, WordPress isn't going anywhere. >> Yeah. Woohoo. Um I I am not concerned about the future of WordPress at this point. I think that we are on a very good trajectory. I think that in you know we've been around for what 22 years now as as a um CMS. And so there's always going to be in a history like that some course corrections. There's always going to be in a history like that some times of um unrest, I guess. Uh and sometimes what you need in order to spur greatness is a little bit of dis um a fray, I guess. I'm not sure what the right word is, but where we where we don't always agree on everything, right? When >> when everything is just always smooth sailing, you can become complacent and it's easy to say, "Oh, this is here. This does what I wanted to do. people are contributing, whatever. But when you have a little bit of an upheaval, it kind of shakes things up enough for people to be like, "Hey, wait a minute. Maybe I should participate." Um, or maybe I'm done with this. In which case, that's fine, too, right? So, um, we've always been someplace where people come and people go, and that's perfectly fine. That's what happens in any community, in any ecosystem. I no longer use Microsoft Word because I am all in on Google. Do you think Microsoft Word is worried that Michelle Fchett is not using, you know, Microsoft Word anymore? I don't think so. I don't think they're worried about that at all. So, I think that there's just opportunities um what when when things like this happen. And I think, you know, we're what we're not even actually a full year in. We're at what 11 months um since last Word Camp US. And so, I think that we are um actually recovering, but we're moving forward and thriving right now. >> It's kind of interesting. There's going to be loads of how to describe it. There's loads of through lines in this episode that I hadn't really realized until just now. So, lots of the pieces that we're about to come on to will in some way come back to this piece. Right? So, we I'll try to as we mention them, I'll try to refer back to this kind of like worry that WordPress is in a spot of danger. Um and so okay with that in mind let's just move on to something completely related to that and the first one therefore would be uh events. Let's think about events for a minute. So these are just things that I found really easily. I didn't have to go looking for this at all. So here as an example, if we're thinking about whether WordPress is uh you know stalling as a as a piece of software as a community, here's a few things which I think paint a picture that it's probably still going to be all right. So the first one is this uh Word Camp Asia. Um they have a now a call for organizers. You obviously have to log in. It's a Google form, so that's kind of broken on what you can see on the screen, but you get the point. Uh if you would like to be involved in that, now is the time. But obviously that event is already mooted um in order for that event to happen. Presumably the or the the um the event space has been organized and paid for and all of that kind of stuff. So Word Camp Asia is a green light and they're looking for organizers at the moment. Next one uh coming up very soon is Word Camp A or you might describe it as Word Camp Canada. They are now looking for sponsors. It's going to be happening in October this year. So again, links will be in the show notes. Yeah. Is it Is it really over your birthday? Are you going >> October 15th? I'm speaker. Yes. >> Oh, nice. Cuz Otto is not like a billion miles away from you, is it? It's >> about a six hour drive. Not >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. That's great. So, anyway, there's another event, a major event taking place. Um and and if you would like to be a sponsor for that event, you can. More events. This one this time in Scandinavia. This is Helsinki WP Suomi. I probably butchered that word, but um word camp in Suomi. It's happening in Helsinki uh later this year. It looks like it's now on the 6th of August uh 2020. Sorry, that was the date you had to submit your proposal. But anyway, the point is there's a a novel and new event happening that I had not heard of until very recently. And then uh finally, Word Camp Europe, probably the biggest of the lot, at least it has been until recently. Uh Word Camp Europe 2026 is now looking for organizers as well. Back to the Word Camp US thing, I think. Oh, that's not Word Camp US. We haven't got a Word Camp US one. Um, until a little while ago, it looked like the ticket numbers were really down, but I think they're now about to pass the thousand threshold. >> They have. They're at 1,0. >> Okay. Um, okay. So, so that's kind of interesting. So, I was a bit concerned that that number would be attended by, I don't know, 5 600 people and it would feel really different. That now seems to be uh changing. However, here's the through line again. Student ticketing, the student ticket pricing for Word Camp US, I imagine has swelled that audience quite a lot in the recent past. You could get a ticket for I think it was $25 and they had a big push to to try and get students to attend. So, that's kind of interesting. And then a little bit later, >> that's great. If they're getting young, new, fresh people in the door, that's amazing. >> Exactly. That Yeah, exact. And can you imagine if you're a college graduate at the minute like how hard is it like that debate like do you want to go into AI or do you want to do a PHPbased sort of CMS thing you can imagine where the hotness is taking people at the moment all the venture capital money and what have you. It's an easy it's an easy one to go for, right? But um but it does appear that some of the initiatives are paying off and people with a certain proclivity for what they want to do with their life and how they want to invest their time and the community that they want to be involved with and the philanthropic nature of things like WordPress. Yeah, you could make your million dollars over on AI, but maybe that's not the central part of what you want to do in life. Maybe you do want to do something a bit more philanthropic and um altruistic. It's not only about the philanthropic side of things. In a lot of uh college university courses related to marketing and things like that, they'll teach the students how to use WordPress and some and often elementor as well as their power tool for supporting their marketing efforts. So, so that's great. That still continues to be the case. I'm sure AI is coming to play. But with AI becoming a strong component of WordPress, then we can be the best of all worlds. I think like use WordPress which is your power to power power tool the a very robust uh CMS that has capabilities that a lot of other systems don't add to the picture add to the mix AI which makes it super user friendly and you can do much more it's like uh it's a great thing to have students learning and using as their tool and hopefully we'll see more of that. So I think that's going to be an advantage in the world of WordPress. >> Then this here's another sort of through line. So, we talked about how student ticket pricing might have swelled the numbers in the more recent past. Obviously, time will tell. You know, if we go to Word Camp US and it's beereft of student aged people, then we'll know that it wasn't that. But if we go and there's I don't know, typically there isn't a lot of young people in that audience. But if we go and we see that there are quite a few, we'll know that that's worked. But here's something on the screen now reported by the repository um which is definitely working. Uh so this is WordPress campus connect. The article is entitled WordPress campus connect quickly growing with global events, student clubs and scholarships and uh and I'll just read the paraphrase. So Ray Mor who will know if you listen to this podcast um 7th of August she wrote this just three months since its official launch word camp sorry WordPress campus connect is picking up serious momentum. Events have already taken place across the continent three continents. Uh student clubs are beginning to form and contributors are rallying behind the initiative to help it grow. The first event of 2025 was held in Spain in May, followed by two more, one in Costa Rica and another in the Philippines. Two additional events are scheduled later this year in India and again in Costa Rica with eight more eight more currently in the planning stages. Um WP Campus Connect contributors have also been laying the groundwork to help students stay engaged with WordPress beyond the classroom, including new scholarship opportunities designed to help students attend flagship word camps. So again, there's that sort of like through line again. So stuff like this is really really interesting and I I I have noticed I don't know if you've seen the same thing. If you look at the where a lot of the plug-in development is being done and where a lot of the community engagement is being done and where a lot of the contributor time is being done, a lot of it is coming from uh Africa and Asia and and it seems maybe it's kind of lost its way a little bit in North America and Europe, but it's like the pendulum has swung a little bit and it's a little bit more exciting in those locals. So anyway, that was a lot from me, but here we go. WP Campus Connect if you wanted to talk about that. >> So we actually supported um the initial efforts at Campus Connect uh last year and now we're supporting uh we're campus connect edge and another one we're just finalizing it there. They want um element licenses which is great. Let people start using WordPress and uh if they want to use element great as their first like web building tool. Um, also we're going to be supporting work campa uh Mary Hubard announced I think she ann she was the one who actually announced it like a collaboration between uh work campaign and university students getting credits which is a really cool initiative. >> So hopefully we're like hopefully we're going to be sponsoring that word camp and there's that kind of collaboration. So we see some really nice efforts around getting fresh faces into WordPress u and into the ecosystem and using it in general like in terms of like um Elliot says here people have been saying WordPress is declining for over 10 years totally I think it's even longer um and it doesn't and in fact if you want like um business proof of uh WordPress still having a very strong future at least we think it does you can see that Elementor has launching many tools over the last year all geared towards WordPress. Image optimizer, site mailer, Angie, they're all WordPress tools and we're optimistic about the future and our business keeps growing with WordPress. So if uh some people need like hard data points, you can look at Elementor and other companies investments in the WordPress space and we continue to invest in it um because it's a strong ecosystem. I'll just read um Elliot's comment in in its entirety because what's on the screen doesn't actually round it all off. It says, "People have been saying WordPress is declining for 10 plus years. I remember friends would tell me when I was at uni in 2015 not to pursue WordPress and PHP as it will be irrelevant in a few years time and obviously that is clearly not the case. Do do you know what's curious though? Again, some of this is so difficult to sum up. It takes a panel of people like this to piece together these pieces and make it e self like evident that these things are all happening and they seem to have a positive uh cycle to them. So we've got um student pricing for Word Camp uh US. We've got WP Campus Connect and all of the different bits and pieces that that's going on there. We've got um we've got plug-in authors. We've got the the PISA thing which is happening at university. Those kind of initiatives are taking off. There's a clear emphasis maybe on marketing with channels which are a bit cooler like YouTube. Obviously Jamie Marsen's contributions he's been officially appointed to make those videos. So you know you're finding the Utes where they are. Um but it doesn't kind of get it never is it anywhere spelled out because we don't really have that kind of marketing team that never kind of really took off. So it it takes things like this. It takes a bunch of heads being knocked together to figure out but but in it in the background I see that there is a lot going on which is trying to make the project more sustainable particularly towards locals where it's becoming increasingly popular. I think uh Europe sorry Asia and um and Africa but also there's a a real endeavor to try and get it into the hands of young people. Let's go with that. and in many cases children at school. Um, and also AI, a huge um effort on behalf of the the the WordPress AI team to make all of the different pieces available uh to AI and MCPs and abilities and all of those kind of things that we've talked about. So, I've kind of talked myself into a much more optimistic position in the last half an hour, which is quite nice. Um because this is what I do. So So hopefully I'll be here. >> That was easy. >> Yeah, this time next year. Uh anything else on that before we move on? >> Uh PHP is dead, says expert on web it. Oh, there you go. >> PHP has also been dying for 20 years. It happens to power like 70 to 80% of the internet, but whatever. >> Yeah. Uh, luckily uh Elliot says I didn't listen to them or to uh expert web it. I don't know if web expert web IT is being tongue and cheek or if they're being serious, but uh yeah, anything on that? Sorry. Before we move on, >> I'll just say one last thing about events. So, when we were planning for work camp, okay, so Work Camp Asia, we didn't know what it was going to be like and it was very vibrant, super vibrant, great attendance and enthusiasm. But like you're saying, uh, Asia is very enthusiastic generally. Sorry if I did not turn about WordPress. Word work camp Europe. We were worried about what was it going to look like? Were people gonna actually be there from our perspective. It was a really good turnout. We had a really good experience there as as sponsors and it was great. Work camp us same story. What's it going to be like? Oh my goodness. They only sold 500 tickets by the way. We're not going to have enough swag like because we're like we hate having extra swag. >> So we planned for um less people. But now with ticket sale being over a thousand, I think it's very possible that we'll get to a safe 1300 tickets sold by the conference, that's a pretty decent turnout for a conference that everyone was uh wondering how it would turn out. So So inerson events, they're maybe not exactly what they used to be, but people are still showing up to learn and connect and innovate, and I think that's a promising sign. And then all these additional events, campus connect and this and that. Wow, there's so much happening. I we're spons I'm in charge of events or sponsorships. I can't even remember all the events we're sponsoring because we get so much outreach and I try to make sure that we support basically almost everything. I don't even know what we're supporting. There's so many like I can't remember. I have to like I have to go back and reference. It's seriously so many. >> You need a spreadsheet. >> I really need a spreadsheet. But it's like all these communities are coming together to meet up and talk about WordPress, learn about WordPress. And it's a it's a volume. In the first half of the year, it wasn't like that. Then I could keep track. Now, forget, I can't keep track. >> Okay. So, maybe picking up I think >> maybe we've got some mojo coming back. Maybe there is a little bit more hutspar about the whole thing. So, in reply to Jeff's post here on um on X, I think it's probably fair to say that at least this panel, we feel pretty confident Dave is making plugins. There's obviously some confidence there. Michelle's making a load of new projects inside of the WordPress space. Elementor releasing a load of new things. There's a load of a big push to skew the audience to younger in the WordPress space. There's a big push to enable people in different parts of the world, particularly Asia and um and Africa to use WordPress. Yeah. Okay. >> Ross makes a good point too in >> Ross makes a good point in the comments too that there's also great communityrun nonword camp events coming up. So, you know, we had Presc come back or uh come this year replacing uh Presnomics which was prior to the pandemic. We had some other events that are on hold, but we also have um you know, CloudFest and things like that that are really ramping up. And so there's a lot there's a lot going on. We've got Loop Comp coming up, like a lot of things that are uh WordPress related that aren't necessarily WordPress.org type events. >> I have a uh I have a link. Yeah. Thank you, Ross, by the way. That's that's a good point. Yeah. Okay. So, that's a whole new that's a whole new part of the ecosystem, isn't it? people taking on events that they're obviously, you know, they're monetizing that event uh as opposed to it being a word camp. Um, you know, they're selling tickets for a different price point, but people are still showing up. Maybe there's more of a I don't know, different focus on what those events are. Thanks, Ross. Um, and here's one. In fact, this is happening in London. We mentioned it a couple of times, but I I got sent a um a coupon code this week by the organizers. So, um there's no affiliate or anything like that. I don't think there is anyway, but if you append, uh I guess in the discount box here. Yeah, there you go. If you put into the discount box WP Builds50, then uh you can get $50 off your ticket. This is for Loop Conf. It's happening uh next month. It's in about six weeks or something like that. Um, and it's a one-day event in central London, and the tickets, the early birds have all sold out, but you can uh you can still get 50 bucks off with the code WP Builds50. Um, yeah. So, there's another uh mention like you just said, thank you. Good. Good. Okay. Okay. Okay. Right. Let me see where we can move to now. Let's go to this one. This is kind of random. A little while ago I had uh Charlotte Bax on the WP Tavern podcast and she was mentioning she her thing is all about um web sustainability and she mentioned in that podcast that she was close to launching a project and I got a message from Charlotte the other week to say that it's ready to go. So I just thought I'd give it a mention on this show. It's called uh Enor. I don't I haven't used it so I can't really report of it on its uh efficacy or anything like that but this page is translated by Google by the way so um if there's grammatical errors or whatever that you can see you know blame AI for translation but enor is built as a toolbox for online sustainability and the idea um is that you've got this tool which will monitor your website and give you a report about the sustainability of it beyond that I can't really tell you anything about it but as she was such a pleasant guest and honestly, you know, anything we can do to remove our carbon footprint is worth looking at. Then I thought I'd mention it. Probably the quickest thing to do is to Google Enor, but the URL is enor.ear. Nice. I think that's kind of cool. Um, and the the product itself uh is called Quickscan. And so it appears to be ready. You can buy a license for various different uh license tiers. So there we go. I wanted to mention that. Um, this is kind of interesting as well. So, this is on Matt's so Matt Mullenweg um out of nowhere. I don't know if this has ever happened before. Um, dropping on the tavern on Wednesday. Um, I'm joined by Michelle actually at this Michelle and by Jonathan D. Rozia and we're talking about WordPress.com and WordPress.org and and why that might be confusing for some people. I've never used WordPress.com except as a login mechanism to sort like bind Jetack to things and things like that. So, I've never been a user of WordPress.com, but um my understanding, and we talk about this in that podcast, is that obviously you get there's a free experience over there where you can get like a limited subset of things, but you pay no money and you get yourself a website, which is nice. But also, if you start to pay money, you can then do things like add in theme support or add in the ability to, you know, migrate from one theme to another, use plugins and so on and so forth. But until recently, uh, if you look on this pricing table, until recently, Michelle, correct me if I'm wrong, um, this business license was the one that you needed to get plugins on.com. Is that true? Have I got that? Yeah. >> Yes, that's my understanding. >> Yeah. Okay. So, >> yeah, you can install some plugins >> on some of the other like you could install Jetack and things like that, right? Um, but more more commercial plugins. >> Okay. You're able to do. So, a limited subset of plugins like the ones that automatic produce, so Jetack and so on. Okay, got it. But, um, so they're they're running an experiment now where if you if you're on the personal plan, so that's in my case it's saying pounds, I guess it's $3 a month if you go with dollars and it's or premium. Um, you can now install plugins. Uh, but you've only got, so this is kind of curious. You've only got until the 25th of August if you want to buy that thing. And I don't know what that means. I don't know if that means you'll get a year of that and then after a year you'll have to pony up to the business account or whether that will then be you'll be grandfathered into that forever and ever. But Matt um obviously the the co-founder of WordPress, he is saying that for the first time ever, we're running a summer special where every single paid account gets full WP the full WP cloud experience with full customization and control. It's a test run till the 25th of August. Um, it's WordPress without the asterisk, without limits, implemented in a way that's intuitive, and the rest of it is, you know, kind of marketing speed. Looks like it's $4 a month, not three, because of the pound difference. Anyway, I thought that was kind of interesting. Um, and I don't know if that means that if it's a barntorming success and they, you know, tons of people pony up and buy that, whether they'll carry on or if it's just I don't know what that is, but it kind of seems >> I don't have any information about what what's going to happen going forward. Um but I have recently you um upgraded a few accounts to the business plan so that I can experience those and see how they work. So um wprabuddies is now wptrailbuddies.com um does live at wptrailbuddies.wordpress.com still. I haven't done the whole migration thing but I am able to add CSS for example and other plugins so that I can use that as a paid um the paid plan. And my goal is recipes forlydia.wordpress.com is now just recipesforlydia.com where I'm adding family recipes for my daughter. And so I'm experimenting with it, seeing how I like it. And so far it's a smashing success because I could do everything in the business plan that I could and self-hosted. Yeah, it kind of feels like these plans though, if that if that was to carry on, it feels like they just become like a regular managed hosting company without the sort of strings attached of, you know, if you're on these cheaper plans, you can't have these. I mean, basically the, you know, you need the plug-in ecosystem to make WordPress um valuable in many people's eyes. And now they appear to be giving that away on this trial basis. Who knows? >> Get the offer at the bottom of the screen to see if there's any more. Well, if you click get the offer, basically you end up >> here. And obviously I'm not logged in, so I can't do anything. I did think about that earlier, but but here, if you see this is the key thing on the pricing table. I'm just it says install plugins. If you if you click on it, you get this little popup which says until August 25, unlock pre uh plug-in access on new personal and premium plan. So that seems to be this offer is is that basically you can get plugins on.com for the same price as you would normally have had to pay for the business account. So that's kind of interesting. >> So basically what Matt says in his post which is interesting is that um WordPress.com runs on like multi-sight infrastructure, right? Yeah. >> It's like the biggest multi-sight infrastructure probably in the world with who knows how many sites. Millions, I'm guessing. >> Millions. Yeah. Yeah. Insane. Can you imagine that? >> It's insane that that thing supports all those sites all the time. It's thanks to their uh server and infrastructure team led by Barry Abramson who's genius. And um so but that that infrastructure uh came with some limitations. I don't know if it's infrastructure or their business model, but like in the lower tiers, you actually couldn't install plugins including free ones. It was limited. Um then they in the last few years they rolled out WP cloud which is kind of like the way I see it is AWS for WordPress right so it's like here's the here's the bare bones like the infrastructure but it's more than just that it also has services and it's tailor made for WordPress so you know um so there's your infrastructure if you want to run things businesses on it whatever but here it's it's combining the two and allowing people to experience WP cloud which is not multi-sight and uh is does offer I guess has more flexibility. Um and yeah, it's an interesting experiment. It will be interesting to see how it goes. But it's um it's interesting to see that contrast of the two infrastructures being offered and and what they what comes with it. Anyways, it's >> Yeah, that's an important point, isn't it? So, if it's WP cloud, it's not like you've just been co-opted into this massive multi-sight network. you're on a you're on some sort of different infrastructure and presumably the economies of scale mean that that's harder to kind of make work at a price point of three pounds or $4 a month fancier infrastructure like cloud >> but it is theirs and you know I don't know how they run their hosting if they have their own data centers but if they do then they can keep their costs pretty low >> and then and then even WP cloud can be relatively low cost to run and and then they can offer it by the way I don't know if you member, but Bluehost partnered with WordPress.com to offer WPC cloud to their users as a higher tier >> I think. So, so that's another example of WCloud being put out there through like a regular hosting company and here anyways I'm this is just my understanding from the outside but it's it's but it is interesting and also interesting it's such a short timeline so maybe they're just hoping to on board a couple of thousand websites and just see see what the heck and and also in the near future it does appear that the WordPress.org org flavor of the the the WP admin is going to become the WordPress.com flavor. So there'll be no visual difference between the the two things. So definitely changes a foot. >> That's combined with the interesting work that's being done on upgrading the WordPress admin UI, right? That's being done by the core team. >> I think um Mats is leading that. Yep. >> I can't remember. Sorry if I'm getting that wrong, but um but yeah, so once it's upgraded, then it's upgrade for everyone.org org and.com and I guess that's that's part of that. >> I think this is kind of an interesting experiment and you know if you're flip-flopping about which host then maybe um maybe that's worth a worth ponying up for a few months just to see. It looks like you got to those prices at least that I'm looking at are annual. So maybe you can change maybe this does that. I don't know. Yeah, you can pay monthly and what have you. Anyway, certainly an interesting pivot and who knows, maybe.com will be a different creature in the in the days, weeks, and months to come. Speaking of hosts, uh last week we had Jess Frick on the show and she was very very very tight-lipped about what she was going to be doing in the future. Uh and she said you'll have to wait and see. And we waited and saw and now I can't find the article. Where's Jess gone? Is that it? No. No. No. Where is There we are. There's Jess. um she's gone to uh Rocket.net. So, another WordPress host. Uh she's becoming the general manager, so like super senior um over at Rocket.net. She was previously with Pressible, but as of now, and I think for the last month, she's been working over at Rocket.net. Coincidentally, and I think it is a coincidence, they also put out some PR information this week, which uh paints a very rosy picture. if um if it's all to be believed, they uh they're going gang busters at the moment. I don't really know how to parse information like this because obviously it is a press release and so it's bound to be couched in, you know, very affirmative language and what have you. But um according to this, they are the if you were to rank um companies, they are number one 167 on the um 2025 Inc. 5,000 list of Americans fastest growing private companies, which I presume means that they're having some sort of stratospheric growth. So, good time to join Jess. So, congratulations to her. >> Jess is amazing. >> Yeah. >> So, they're lucky to have her. And >> Ben, Gabriel, who's running Rocket. He's just powering such a pace and you can see it in their growth, which is super impressive. So, good for all of them. I just don't even I don't even really understand how you cut through the noise with WordPress hosting. I just don't understand how how you can like grow at a a seismic rate because there's just so many and they all have to speak the same language, you know, they're all >> it's all in the marketing differentiator. >> I wonder what they've done different then in that case. I wonder if it's just, you know, like that amazing domain authority they've got when they bought rocket.net. It's kind of a brilliant name. I don't know what they've done differently, but obviously something's sticking. So, well done to them. Um, >> it's basically quality support and as Ben sort of says, not charging commodity prices of like $3 a month for your hosting. It's cheap as chips. Actually charge like $30 for your single sites. You can actually afford to have a good support team and people behind it and the infrastructure and things. So, disclaimer, I've got a few sites in Rocket as well and like them on that side. But yeah, they're charging prices that mean they can actually grow and provide a good service. rather than just being race to the bottom which never wins. >> So what what is it when you bought their stuff? What tipped you over? Was it the support? It sounds like you >> I had quite a few sites. We're 20 in the UK because I was kind of just starting on the small hosting side and I had all the bits on there, but I had one client two years back that wanted like a site that was like hot on the performance side of things. So through sort of Rocket's marketing and bits on their sort of speed and time to first bites and things and if there are other blog posts and bits they put out there I thought yeah give them a try on that side. They had the support team behind that could migrate a site from there across rather than relying on the tools and things. But yeah, I think it's just basically the quality support and things behind that even Ben said himself a few times he's then popped in and replied to tickets just so he can see what's going on the coal face to get an understanding for what's going on rather than like oh well we're running short on people I've got help in it's like I want to see what's running in my own business on that side. So yeah we're two hosts and they're one of them. >> I um whenever I go to a new website especially in the WordPress space my journey goes like this. I end up at the homepage and then I just scroll up and down quickly, you know, just do the kind of like the eye candy bit, just what what the heck are they doing? Then almost immediately I end up on the pricing page and I'll have a scan around there. And then my third port of call- which is where I really want to get to is the about page and I will read the about page. In fact, that's the most important metric for me is who the heck are you? Um, and obviously a company like Rocket.net, their about page is probably going to look really credible now, you know, if they can point to these press articles and all the different websites that they've no got no doubt got on their domain. But uniquely for hosting, the thing which will turn me off them quickly is rubbish support. Um, and I'm currently with a host that I really like. I won't mention any names because it's, you know, why would I? But they they have um intercom, you know, that little chat widget thing in the bottom right hand corner. And when I click that, I can count on one hand the amount of seconds it takes for me to get a real human. It's like usually like 4 seconds before a real human drops in. And typically they have got the answer. So it it's pretty clear to me that they're not employing like tier one, tier two, tier three. I think everybody's tier three and I'm just totally sold on that. I I just in case they're listening, I'm not going to, but I would pay twice as much. >> Next week's article, so and so hosting a single customer. >> Yeah. But that whole piece of mind thing, right? >> It's it's so important. It's the one thing that I will pay through the nose for is that hosting. When I was running stratic, I said most SAS products and that includes hosting is 50% the product and 50% the support. >> You your product is only as good as your support. If it's not excellent, >> people will go elsewhere and that can be one of your major selling points. And so company like Rocket or the one that you're hosting with shows that what Rocket I think also shows which is interesting from a business perspective is that you can enter a space that seems super saturated. >> Yeah. right? Hosting, but also an industry that's kind of like legacy and old WordPress and supposedly isn't growing. And if you position yourself correctly, marketing, sales, I don't know if they do sales, it's probably a lot of word of mouth, bringing expertise to the table, etc. Focusing on specific value points that you really emphasize, then you can you can do well even in that kind of market. There's no such thing as something that doesn't work. And by the way, the race to the bottom also works unfortunately, but there are hosting companies in our space that do amazingly well by racing to the bottom, which makes it hard for everyone else because customer support is super expensive. It just is like providing that, which is what we expect, right? It's just it costs a lot. So, but both all things work and and all these companies in a certain place and and can find success there. It's uh it's interesting. >> Yeah. I mean, incredible. Uh I I think the first time I'd heard of rocket.net was probably I don't know maybe four years ago. Maybe I'm being a bit optimistic. I don't know if they're actually a lot older than that or what have you. They weren't on my radar. And now they seem to be everywhere. They've whatever they've done is pretty impressive. So congratulations to them for hiring Jess cuz we all know Jess is brilliant. And uh congratulations Jess to you for doing that as well, taking that job. Okay. So, let's imagine a scenario where you're sitting around to yourself, you know, you're bored one day and you think, do you know what I need? I need more WordPress AI music in my life because, you know, I'm sure we've all done it. Um, just bored on a Sunday, like what the heck am I going to do with my Sunday? I could do the chores or I could sit down and I could go here. I don't know what to say about this. They got a great URL. It's wlog.fm on Unfortunately, I can't play my system audio. Uh, it won't allow it. So, I can't play I can't play. But this is basically a neverending never ending source of AI generated music uh all about WordPress. So, for example, at the moment, if I was to click play, I would be delighted to hear uh the the song WordPress Queen. Uh but just a short click away, I've got a song called Broken. I want to know who's behind. Do we know who's behind this? >> I have no idea, but it's just genius. Um, I've got broken broken broken perink. I mean, it's going to sell right to the top of the charts, isn't it? And then another plug in >> plugin conflict. >> It's so good. Plug-in conflict. Um, word camp nostalgia. I just my mess, my masterpiece. No doubt about >> I have one on my screen called staging versus production. >> Have a listen just just listen to it in your own ears because you know and then and then the one about the actual website itself wlg.fm WordPress radio all the ran out of space the characters so gets truncated there one called child theme. So now you know what you know what to do with your life. Go and listen to this. I mean, they're made by a AI, so your mileage may vary. Um, but I had a I had a good chuckle. Um, I don't know if it's making them on the fly or if it's just, you know, they've got they've made 50 of them and put them on this website, but uh, >> being the geek I am, I think they've just kind of pre-generated them because you can see in the page source, you got things that been in the player. So, >> there's a few. Okay, they've got a they got a podcast player or something like that going. Okay, brilliant. This one says 404 feeling lost. >> Okay. Exactly. It's so good. Uh Dave Don, he's already giggling. He says, "I should definitely check out WLOG after the Yeah, stick it on your YouTube channel, Dave. Um make us make it so that we can all listen to them." Uh then, okay, the very last one. There was so many bits and pieces that we could have got to today. Um I will get to this one probably last. If you I don't I don't know what to make of this. Usually things in the WordPress space get more expensive or, you know, more things get added in and it costs more money. I'm curious as to what's going on here. So, Shorecart, I I don't know much about Shortcart, but I know it's kind of like a rival to um Woo Commerce. Let's go with that. Um it's a it's a an entire e-commerce platform. I It's um by Adam Pryer and I believe Andre Daniel as well. They're the two people behind it. Maybe there's more. Apologies if there are. Um, for a while they had fees attached to some of the different add-ons that you could get. So, for example, if you wanted order bumps, they would charge a fee, but not like a fee like you'd pay for their extension. They they would add in a fee onto the transaction cost. So, let's say that somebody ordered an order bump, they would get 2.9% of, sorry, 1.9% of that order bump, which felt like a pretty incredible business model for them. So, I don't know what's forced this about face, but that's all gone. They've decided to get rid of these extra fees. And I I don't know why. My only thought is that coming round the corner is uh a new rival called Fluent Cart, which if you've ever come across their products, you know, Fluent Forms, uh Fluent CRM, they got a whole load of different things in the WordPress space, they are they're probably going to be treading fairly heavily on the toes of Shorecart in the near future. So, I don't really know what's going on there, but um anyway, if you've got Shorecart, you're and you're making money out of it, you're about to make about 1.9% more. Um so, wow. There you go. Things things apparently get cheaper. >> Very, by the way, there's another company that lowered their prices recently. We just saw >> Go on. >> Uh Nitro Pack, >> did they? >> Yeah, they lowered their prices >> just like that. >> They were like, uh I I'm pretty sure it was them. I I Yeah. Uh they were like we can so we did. It was something like that. >> Interesting. You wonder if it's commercial pressure like some other rival like hot rival is coming along or if it's just literally why not you know we're doing >> why not in a world of rising prices. It's a nice way to create some positive sentiment and maybe you know it's a little bit of the race to the bottom but not exactly if you retain your quality and yeah it's it's a nice thing to do for your users. >> Yeah. The interesting thing here is I don't think anything about the product has changed just the pricing. So whatever you had before I think you now have the same. They just don't cream off this little fee. You know in the same way that Stripe does, right? You pay a transaction, you expect Stripe to take a bit. Well, they were adding in their their little fee as well. So anyway, they've taken that away. So um there you go. I think we've reached our 90 minute mark. Is there anything else that I missed our panel? anything you wanted me to add that I didn't No, we're all good. Okay, >> in which case I will say uh Miriam, I'll see you next week. Is it next week? >> Yeah. >> Yeah, next week. Um Michelle, I'll see you next week as well. >> See you above us. Oh, yeah. >> Dave, I don't know when I'll see you, but >> I can't go anywhere. >> I'm so sorry. You need to sell more Click Talk licenses. Let's uh let's try and make that happen. Yeah. Yeah. >> Click here. >> Yeah. Um but we will see we will see you in a couple of weeks time. I believe the show is coming back depending on how jetlagged I am. We'll be back in two weeks time. Um so thank you for joining us. As always the show is kept alive by the comments. So thank you so much if you endeavor to make a comment. Really appreciate it. The links as always will be in the show notes. Head to wpbuilds.com and search for episode number 345 of this week in WordPress. And only one thing that remains is the humiliating handwave of joy. Uh that's now what I'm calling it, the humiliating handwave of joy. Uh and look, they're all >> jazz even the vaguest humiliation. Anyway, hey, there you go. Thank you so much, Michelle Fchette. Thank you, Dave. Thank you, Miriam. We will see you soon. If you guys want to stick around for a nata, feel free. We'll see you in a couple of weeks time. Take it easy. Bye bye. Bye., This Week in WordPress #345, WP Builds, 01k32kmmg8zav2nncyca37w5wg.