This Week in WordPress #376  🔗 **Source:** [This Week in WordPress #376](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uig16bIOGLg#transcript) That was weird. That was really, really weird. Sometimes that music takes an absolute age. Like 2 minutes is what it is and it really feels like it takes 10. I swear to God that was like 8 seconds. That was the like profoundly weird how time shifted for me in that 2 minutes. That's really >> you just blacked out. >> No. No. Like have you ever had that when you do the same let's say you do the same journey to the supermarket or something like that and then sometimes you'll just arrive and you'll think how what what occurred between me getting in the car and getting here. No, clearly I'm the only one that >> you fell asleep at the wheel. >> I fell asleep at the wheel. Um anyway, this is off to a good start. It's this week in WordPress number 376. The reason I say that is because normally I go off and do a couple of other things just to make sure the show's working and what have you and and I come back and there's like a whole minute of jingle left. That time I got back and there was like 4 seconds left, so it was all very strange. Um, number 376. We're here to talk about WordPress stuff and no doubt some other stuff as well. We might even talk about brushes later, you know. I mean, hold tight, ladies and gentlemen. It doesn't get better than that. But in order for this stupidity to carry on for 90 minutes, I have to be joined by some other people. Um, >> you know, you don't stupid by yourself. >> Yeah. And on that, look, look. Okay. Right. Fine. It's just me. It's just gonna be me. Look, everybody thinks that's hysterically funny. Um, I want all of the guests to be here. So anyway, the idea is to talk about WordPressy stuff with a bit of humor and light-heartedness thrown in. I think this is a good panel for light-heartedness because we've been on the call for about 10 minutes already in the background and we've had multiple giggles and um and I've let out a little bit of liquid. Let's just put it that way. Just let that sink in and then we'll move on. Okay. So, who's joining me today? Well, you can see going around the screen, we have Mark Benz again, we've got Tim Nash, and we've also got Mark with a K from WS form. Yeah, we are going to have problems this week because we've got two marks. How are we going to solve it? >> What are we going to do? >> Mark with a K, Mark with a C. >> Really? Okay. >> Or you could read bios. >> Yeah. Or what about like Muriel and Diane? >> Tim Kim obviously read my bio. >> Okay. Okay. In which case, let's get to the bios. We'll solve that problem as we come to it. Yeah, Mark's bio is I've only just looked. It's a full-on pass paragraph. It's like a small book. Uh, in which case we'll come to Mark with a K. No, Mark with a C at the end. Let's do Mark Westgard first. Mark is the founder of the WordPress form plug-in WS form. Is that is that it? >> And I appreciate you saying that slowly. Yeah, he's he's also he's also jolly good company. If you go to a word camp, u seek him out. I often do. This time we spent quite a lot of time doing all sorts of fun things, didn't we? I suspect our most enjoyable thing was mocking the wax museum in Kov, which is really entertaining. >> Yeah. >> What a place. If you go to Kov, please go to the wax museum. It is entertainment on another level. Yeah, it really is. It's brilliant. Okay, and then Tim Nash is also joining us and Tim's bio says, "Tim does stuff with WordPress on the internet. Sometimes he scares people." That's nice and simple, too. >> Well, I saw Mark's Oh, we're going with simple, are we? >> Oh, you mean mine? And then here comes Mark. >> Okay. Well, I I just want to say there's an interesting thing that that uh Gina, my girlfriend, taught me about chat GPT. If you put in add meat to like something, it adds meat to something and write this big. Yeah. So, >> okay. So, here we go. So, this is the chat GPTized version. I'm going to read it very very quickly uh because otherwise we'll be here for quite a long time. So, here we go. Mark Benjane, often often referred to as mark number two on this podcast, is in the partnerships and community lead at MainWP, where he works with plug-in developers, agencies, hosts, and service providers to help expand what's possible within the WordPress open source ecosystem. A longtime WordPress professional, Mark is passionate about collaboration, community building, and finding practical ways for businesses to benefit from open source technology while while maintaining open open ownership and control of their websites. Over the past couple of weeks and continuing over the next several, MainWP has been rolling out new thirdparty integrations and add-ons through its partnership program, helping users connect more more of the tools they already rely on on their MainWP dashboards. If you're building something in the WordPress space and are curious about potential collaboration opportunities, Mark is always happy to have a conversation, it can be reached through MainWP. He's also a longtime fan of the band Rush and would like to offer congratulations on the smashing smashingly successful start to their new tour, providing that there's still plenty of life left to be lived, even for those of us older folks. How did I do? >> However, you need to apologize to all of those who are listening on two times speed in the playback. >> Yes. Yes. Even better. >> Yeah. >> But here's the thing. Here's the thing. I just learned about the Clangers and I've been like going on this deep dive about this. >> It's like now I wish I had written something in my bio about the Clangers because this is mustsee TV right here. >> So if you're if you're not based in the UK, prior to the conversation uh prior to me hitting record, we had a conversation and it ended up being about kids TV in the UK and we mentioned this thing called the Clangers. Go and you YouTube it. The Clangers. But seriously, take some like I don't know some barbituates before you do. >> Um because not the use of we need you to do some more legal tears. Nobody >> only if they've been prescribed to you by a doctor. >> That's right. Yes. Okay. >> Also, if you go to the doctors and say I'm about to watch the clers, is that what they're going to prescribe you? Can Can I just say this show's never going to finish, is it? We'll never get to the list of things that we're supposed to do. >> I'm not sure it's ever going to start. >> Yeah, it's great. It's brilliant. Right. So, the normal um sort of housekeeping stuff I'm going to do uh and say the following. If you are over on any of the YouTube or anything like that, that's great. But the easiest place to sort of catch what we're doing is wpbuilds.comsubscribe. There we go. wpbuilds.comsubscribe. You can you can sort of go there and uh you know find out what we're doing um and sign up to our email list and all of that kind of stuff. Probably the quickest way to do that kind of stuff is just to go to this page uh wpbuilds.com. Stick your email address into this form field and click subscribe and then it will be WS form um which will submit that to me and get you onto our email list. That's rather nice feature that they offer. Um, what have we done this week? We chatted this week to Alex Standifford. Oh no, I need to refresh that. That hasn't been refreshed in a while. There we go. Um, Miriam Schwab is who we talked to most recently. Alex was the week before that. And we were talking about uh Angie AI, which is uh, no, it's not really new anymore, but it's a feature if you're an Elementor user or not an Elementor user, which you can use to help assist with your WordPress website. So, go and check that out. And then derailing the show utterly and completely. Um, this has got nothing to do with WordPress, but I just found it hysterically funny. Just before Mark uh joined the show, he sent me this picture, which I just thought was brilliant and worthy of showing on any podcast, frankly. Um, for those of you that for those of you that can't see it, Mark woke up this morning to this. Get compensation for your injury. Grillbrush injury. Have you ever had a grill brush injury, panel? No, I don't. >> Oh, yes. Many, >> but I I never thought to sue anybody. No. >> My own silly fault. >> Well, I mean I mean grilling is is generally like associated with real men, right? So, real men are going to complain about a grill brush injury. That just like is a big contradiction right there, I think. >> Oh, okay. Well, I >> got to ask, how did you get targeted with it? I mean, maybe they just decided that Mark is a real man, as you put it. >> I did put it in quotes. By the way, there were air quotes for those of you who are not watching the video. >> It's um he's been targeted was because of his previous lawsuit with a grill brush. You know, >> I must just be suing everybody. >> Anyway, I just thought that was just I don't know why I thought that was as funny as it was, but I thought it was funny. >> That's why I sent it to you because I thought it was funny. >> Yeah. I've I've I've airbrushed, see what I did there? The uh the name of the companies out, but whoever they are, please please stop with their silliness. Nobody needs this. >> You say that there is somebody out there who's going, >> "My grill brush and my injury and >> yeah, but who will who will represent me?" >> Who who But how could you how could you possibly be injured by a grill brush unless you did it to yourself? So, it's a bit like suing yourself cuz you've I don't know. You woke up in the morning with a dead arm and slapped your own face. >> Well, this is the same this is the same law firm >> probably the same law firm that like sued McDonald's for the person who burned themselves with coffee. I mean, >> gosh. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. That was high quality, wasn't it? I oddly I was in America when that happened and I remember even the American media thought that that was a curious example of law gone a bit bizarre and I think it was somebody who' put the bought a coffee taken >> put it in their lap >> put it in their lap and then break or something and squeeze the legs together and out pop the >> the hot liquid and so now ever since then even in the UK the cups now all need to say contains hot liquid it's like yeah really it's a coffee okay >> it's a Yeah, that's right. >> Uh, right. Okay, let us move on. So, the next thing that we do on the show is we um we allow the guests to bring one or two of their bits and pieces that they wish to wish to mention during the last week. And uh Tim has brought three. Uh so Tim, I'm going to start us off with some AI news. I actually I don't fully understand what this is. I just saw that the that the I guess it's the US government have banned certain brand new models. Can you can you tell us why? >> Uh if if that let's not do that question first. Let's go with the more simpler one of what what's happened and then we can >> Okay, let me just replay that. Uh Tim, can you tell us what's happened with this story? We'll edit that out. So, once upon a time there was a uh AI company who put out a vast amount of marketing about their shiny new Mythos models which were so powerful and so scary they weren't going to launch them to the world. Unfortunately, they discovered that you don't make money on things that you don't launch to the world. So they released Fable, which was like supposedly Mythos, but with all the scary bits guard railed away, so you couldn't test them to see if it really was as scary as they thought it was. They launched it. Lots of hype. Most people said, "Wow, this is quite a good AI model on par with sort of certainly better than quite a lot of the uh anthropic models, possibly better than the OpenAI model. certainly better than the the general other models that rush up behind those two sort of like big heavyweights in many ways. Launches and after a couple of days of launching lots of people playing with it all of a sudden and fropic make a statement saying we are pulling fable 5 and mythos for everybody the and then it then as part of that the US government has put an export control ban on it. So basically the US government says no non US citizen can use this model that they've they're banning it from being exported i.e. used anywhere. Now the problem with that is that um most people who are working on this model are not US citizens. >> Majority of Anthropic's own staff are not US citizens. >> So they just have to shut their eyes. >> So working on it. So the result was they had to shut this down. Why is this interesting? Well, this is the first time we've seen a uh AI model being banned effectively for to stop it being used by supposedly the US's adversar adversaries. Um and it was a blanket ban. Um, you could argue that that was because it was deemed that it the the reason for it was that it was somehow would allow you to create back doors and to do nasty things and it's really bad for hacking. What it actually appeared to be is that uh somebody asked it to do a code review and it did. Oh, which every other model on the planet pretty much can do to varying degrees. But it was very interesting that this morning when I uh went into uh OpenAI's codeex and typed in at cyber to get my get the official plugin to do security review, it wasn't there this morning. I can't imagine why that was. So, huh, we are in a position now where the US government has blocked this. Obviously, Anthropic launched it. People bought plans to use it. They cannot use it. So, they they are stuck. You've got this group of where it's like, is this hubris? Was this a uh AI company or a hitting its own marketing hype? and trying to pump pump the stock up. Was this a really a marketing campaign that backfired? Was this a grudge match by the US government who, let's face it, isn't renowned at the moment for being the most just, fair, and impartial government in the world and does have a habit of um if it doesn't like you tries to sue you and has found a new mechanism to maybe beat somebody with a stick. grill brushes are next, by the way, by the US government. >> Oh, yeah. Um, >> you could be cynical and say that the uh allegedly the Trump family have shares in open AI and they don't in anthropic. That's one take. But the big problem here is so there's there's like the problem which is that these models are being banned effectively being banned. They are technically under export control, but as I'm frogpit can't use it themselves, they can't exactly update it or manage it. So they basically blanketly said no. But weirdly, this is probably the best thing to happen potentially to AI models. >> Because all of a sudden, every company on the planet woke up this morning and went, "Huh, what happens when our model gets banned? What happens when the company we rely on gets banned?" Because Open AI might be the favor of the month for the US government at the moment. These wax and Wayne over the time we've seen it all the time that companies go in and out of favor. So what happens when their models get banned? All of a sudden those open-source models which are only a couple of tiers below. >> Oh interesting. Suddenly we're looking at them and going yeah maybe so our own sovereignty is important for countries like the UK where we have been sitting on the fence about data AI sovereignty and whether we should be man running running our own large language models internally we we turns out we actually do but they just nobody pays attention to them but maybe that's something that individual countries should be thinking about certainly a lot more companies are going to be going well actually we want to use these open source models we're willing to put the hardware about. So, I would not be surprised if any if anybody was buying planning on buying a gaming PC or a graphics card. >> You know, the prices were just dipping down. >> Yeah, >> they ain't dipping down no more. We're going to just see I suspect we're going to see a massive spike in the hardware uh costs. But yeah, it's it's a real mess >> and one that could have been solved easily. But the really strange thing about this is that the person the company that supposedly reported it because uh Robic said basically a third party company had reported them. The third party company was not OpenAI as everybody automatically assumed. It was Amazon. >> That's right. >> Who is Anthropic's >> Yeah. >> biggest customer and has a large stake in anthropic. So we might actually genuinely been a that the person decided it really was a national security issue and took it forward. >> So we don't have any intel in there isn't like a smoking gun which is okay this is the thing which stepped over some boundary that had never been like a Rubicon this the AI did something genuinely surprising and new and potentially harmful. We don't appear >> as far as we know. No. >> Right. Okay. So, uh, a comment came in from Wiki Design. Thank you. Which said, "This is all starting to sound like a marketing campaign and stock manipulation, nothing more." So, you made that point. Okay, that's really interesting. And and honestly, I hadn't made the connection with the open- source models, and I wonder if that will now force people to to to realize maybe that's somewhere they need to be. Um that's really intriguing. >> The the downside to that is of course the open source models in many ways need the frontier models i.e. the these closed source big ones uh to use it not least if you're using certain ones which are obviously trading off the bigger source models whether they're meant to or not. >> Okay. >> So we are in a really weird scenario but uh >> there was an awful lot of hyping up of mythos. So, >> okay, >> and Tropic put this on a pedestal and somebody's took a swipe at it. I It's interesting to see the ramifications of that. I I don't think anybody necessarily thought that this would be the ramification. I think there what everybody expected was it to be knocked off the pedestal with people saying, "Yeah, it's not as good as it really is. It's all marketing." Like, >> and the weird thing is >> now they've got the best marketing campaign ever because they've been banned by the US government. Yeah, I was just about to say um in the absence of an actually a seismic leap in technology, this is probably the the most effective way if you want to look at it from a conspiratorial point of view. This is a very effective way to get to get eyeballs, isn't it? It's so >> somebody doing an advert from showing an advert from the uh late 90s early 2000s when uh Apple and released the um G4 and it was subject to an export control briefly and Apple turned that into the main ad that they used. >> That's so good. >> So powerful it has to be controlled. >> That's right. Oh, >> I feel like Anthropic is going to be doing the same >> maybe. Yeah. Well, that's certainly an interesting story. So, it's on the Anthropic, I'm guessing, blog. It was uh three days ago that this was announced. So, we'll have to see what's >> It is on every news website you will find. >> Yeah. Well, it's hot news, isn't it? Yeah. Let's let's um let's see how that story develops. That's interesting. Thank you. So, that was Tim's first piece. And then there was um some I've got another piece which kind of maps to this. So, we'll do your piece and then we'll do my piece because curiously they're both from the Guardian. So, this is UK news. um social media if you like. Do you want to just paraphrase this one quickly? >> Yeah. Uh so this second one is breaking news, you know, because we we run into breaking news on a weekly show, but this is genuine breaking news. It only happened a few hours ago. Um and that is that social media firms are getting upset because our prime minister went out onto the world stage and said that we're going to ban social media for under 16s >> in a Australian plus solution because you know >> the Australians went no no we're we are Australian plus. >> Yeah. Does that mean that when we don't win the ashes, we can at least say this? You know, that's >> your upstart colony. This is our our plus on it. >> Yeah. >> But so the the basic premise is that somehow we're going to ban under 16s from using harmful social media. >> It is a typical politician's plan. It's words have been said. >> Most of them have no real meaning. >> Most of them have no direction. Yeah. >> And the it almost certainly relies on technology that does not yet currently exist. >> Okay. So, brilliant. Okay. But solid >> pretty much where we normally go with these >> whenever you legislate technology. If you're legislating technology >> for a given moment, almost certainly that moment has already passed. >> And this is a good example of this. What's curious about this is if I was 13 years old or 14 years old and and I was getting into this already deeply immersed in it, I would be so annoyed about this, but my commodly 50 plus year old self is sort of saying, "Yeah, I this this all adds up." Like, >> well, see, I I think I fully support this as long as we also ban over 40s on Twitter. >> Okay. Um, okay, let's do it. I feel like if we just b if we could just ban over 14s from social media and and under 16s that seems like a good happy medium. You're allowed to have it. >> A short window of like 24 years to be on social media and then yeah, you get this apocalyptic moment on your 39th birthday. The clock starts ticking. You've got 365 days of social media left. No, I'm with you. >> The next step is Logan's Run. So, we were I was I was just going to bring up Logan's run and I was like, does anybody even remember that >> he does? >> Apparently. >> Yeah. So, okay. Let's see how that goes. It'll be interesting to see how they manage to gatekeep that and how they manage to stop the social media companies circumventing what will obviously be a tricky moment when they become I mean, presumably the only way that you can do it is to enforce some sort of um recognition of government-based ID to prove that you are of a certain. Do you not remember when we decided we were going to ban porn and how we solved that solution, which was to go, >> yeah, cookies. >> Hey, let's pay some companies to hoard the data and then wonder why data >> breaches. That's right. Yeah. And the claim that they I'm taking a picture of your face, but we're not going to use your picture of your face or keep in any way the picture of your face, but we're going to take a picture of your face. >> VPNs became very popular after this. >> VPNs will continue to be popular. Um, the social media companies are understandably going, "Uh, what now?" Uh, I have a little bit of sympathy. >> I thought, uh, YouTube, uh, well, Google, but YouTube had adverts plastered all around Westminster, so around near the government buildings in London, that just showed you how to use your parental controls on YouTube. >> Oh, wow. which I thought was a very carefully and clever response to this is like look you you you're you're legislating for something that you don't really have we already have controls in place to do some of this. >> Yeah. >> So it is a hard one to crack though and I've whenever we get these sort of stories it is always about think of the children and it's like yeah not sure this is true. I I I I love the idea of we're thinking of the children, but are we really going to solve it? >> Oh, I'm sure it's framed around like the children are the framing of it, aren't they? But there's probably a a wider more sort of I don't know um systemic problem. And I'll just put this one up. So, this isn't Tim's piece, but it's it's again it's in the Guardian, coincidentally, which by the way, if you don't know, is a fairly left-leaning publication in the UK. So, that would maybe explain why it's raising these things. um some some I'm going to say the government I I will prove to be wrong I'm sure but the the UK have decided that they're going to invest in um some research to see if exposure to things like Tik Tok or fastpaced content um is in fact creating a different sort of structure to the brain. Uh, so let's say for example that you're my age with that's how we got onto the whole clangers and the BBC TV programs that were very slow when we were children. Television was I I'm guessing intentionally perhaps not intentionally but it was very slow paced. A children's program kind of had this feel of something a quarter of the pace of an adult program. You know there was no flashing lights or anything like that. Whether that was deliberate or or otherwise I don't know. But I was brought up in an era where the television programs for children were very very young. And now all those you like on Tik Tok and YouTube. So the government are going to carry out some research with some fairly credible scientists including this lady with a you know a helmet that looks like she's come out of the film Alien. >> She's now a child. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, she No, that's right. I don't know what like these researchers are I don't know what >> that's what happens when you have to watch children's TV. >> Yeah. This old age occurs very quickly. No, I presume she's the control. She She is the UK control lady. She's everything that's not Anyway, um so they're going to carry out this research and see if if there is a there there if the brain develops in a different way. I'm I'm fairly sure that if I watch fast-paced stuff, then I I've definitely got a different approach to the next few hours, you know, so there is some difference that occurs in my brain. Um whether or not that means that children are being wired differently, I don't quite know. But there's a few comments about this. So, first one, Web Squadron. Hello. Hi there, Imran. I suspect that they're trying to force apps or something to Oh, they're going to try and force apps on the phones to be blocked. Um, so I presume you mean by that things like getting the platforms like Apple and Google to block it as opposed to each app having to govern its own. Yeah, that would be interesting. >> I already I already do that with my children. >> I stop them from using Snapchat. You know, Snapchat is the biggest waste of time. I I'll tell you a quick thing about Snapchat. I found my children taking photographs of the ceiling and and posting it to Snapchat and then putting an S on it because that meant streak because you have to keep posting on Snapchat to get what's called a streak. A streak. literally just pointing at the ceiling taking a photo and I was like right that's getting banned >> and the kick obviously the kickback from it was quite incredible. >> I I don't know I I think my ceiling is pretty cool lots of pictures of my ceiling. It's it's pretty good. what what is sort of coming from that is that the uh both Apple and uh Google via Android and this is even turned up in Linux um sort of circles recently is age verification on the device and on the at the operating system level is something that is being pushed for by multiple countries. So actually, >> okay, >> it is possibly the right route because you're verifying the device that you're on at that given moment, not necessarily some ID you handed over six months ago. Apple claimed that they can tell the age of somebody from a photo very quickly and easily. >> That's really biometrics associated with that. >> Therefore, I mean, look at me. I look like 26 >> and I'm not 26. >> I'm not even 26. Yeah, 20. Thanks, Mark. >> No, that's just garbage though, isn't it? The idea that a photo can like like obviously it can tell broad sways like you know he's 50, she's probably in her 30s. But when you've got that like gap where being being 16 and a half and being 15 and a half is the crucial difference. Well, that's when you get your look 25 policy coming. You're not allowed to buy your boobs anymore. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um but but any anyway I I think all of this is absolutely fascinating and I I think maybe we've lurched a lot in the wrong direction and so we're just trying to now figure out ways to to lift the to >> but the thing is trying to kids trying to outsmart kids is like and >> I mean these guys they go to school every day and and they were the original I mean we when we were things went viral before things went viral. I mean, one kid figures out how to do something and every kid in the whole school is going to know by the end of the day. >> Yeah. >> So, I don't I don't there's there's, you know, there's always a workaround for everything. I I was just talking to a guy the other day and he asked about, "Hey, can we put this thing into this project that we want to do and blah blah blah?" And I said, "Sure." And that'll get rid of the lowhanging fruit. But if anybody wants to know how to do something or they want to work around something, they're going to figure it out. >> Yeah. >> And and and then all they have to do is go to school. I mean, kids talk. It's like, hey, look what I They want to brag about what they figured out. >> Yeah. >> And and before you know, >> I can tell Yeah. I can tell you that like having a house uh full of eight kids. I had one kid who came to live with us for well unfortunately it was only two weeks because he he caused issues that we couldn't overcome. But that kid hacked into my Wi-Fi 18 different ways within the first 24 hours and I had it secure I thought and and one time >> 18 different ways argues differently but found the reset button. >> Okay, I'm exaggerating with the 18 different ways but one time I couldn't figure out how he did it. The other times I was like, "Okay, I can see what he did here." And I and and here's the thing, as as a guy who's in technology, I'm like half the time I'm like wanting to yell at him and then the other half of me is like, "Wow, this you are so smart," you know, and it's like I want to praise him for being so smart, >> right? Yeah. >> And it's it's it's like, you know, and then and then I think this is where the where the phrase, why can't you use those powers for good comes in? But the thing is, if your prefrontal cortex is not developed until you're 25, but you have the ability to do these highly critical thinking, you problem solving skills before then, this is what you're going to end up with. >> And and I don't know how to work around that honestly other than, you know, teach your kids. I mean, it all boils down to it all boils down to the original just teach your kids, right? and and hope that when they go through that their teenage years and do all the things that you know that they're doing but you don't want them to do but you know they're going to do that they just come out of the other end of the tunnel you know fairly unscathed and then pay for the therapy to make up for the rest of it. I um I I read a piece again I believe it was in the Guardian so you know caveat emptor um the and it was it was like a month in on the Australian regime when they'd obviously enforced it and they went round a bunch of people and asked the kids how's it been and I think in many cases it was like oh yeah it was really it has been really weird but also I think there was a recognition that the the people who they were questioning had found a significant proportion of free time available to them which they really weren't aware was available to them, which was kind of curious as well. You know, they were getting up to curious and interesting things that maybe they hadn't in the past cuz so much time was spent. Um, >> the way you're saying that is slightly cryptic and I'm like, does he mean the birth rate in Australia is increasing? Because that's a very negative thing potentially. >> No, no. Oh, no. Yeah. Not those kind of things. I mean like, you know, going out and playing baseball or something. Um, >> Oh, yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Not the other. >> Can I loop it back to WordPress very quickly, just ever so slightly, which is >> there is no definition of social media. >> Oh yeah, that's true. >> And in Australia, they they've they've they've defined social media very tightly. And it's been and it's really a certain company and certain platform ban rather than necessarily >> okay, >> a blanket ban on social media. If you try to define social media, I'd I think you would struggle not to include blogs. >> I think you'd struggle to not include >> any commenting system that allowed >> you to comment, especially one that was distributed in any way. >> Well, also it's the retention of that data, isn't it? It's like where does it sit and who governs it? And like I would if legislation which which I don't know which meant that I was responsible for the commentary inside a database on a WordPress site and it's open to the public. >> I mean gosh you >> I mean let's take something if you if you were to argue that Tumblr was social media which I think a lot of people would go what's Tumblr but those of them who do remember what Tumblr was. >> Yeah. and how much it costs to buy it. The they would um you I think most people would say that's social media, but ultimately it was bought on the premise it's just micro blogging. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So, uh this this is the sort of laws that will actually come to play in our play area quite quickly. >> Yeah. And you can start to expect a lot more >> questioning on do you want I mean I don't think very many sites really act as blogs these days and most of the people who who are listening to the show they might have a personal blog but actually they're not if you're working inside WordPress it's unlikely that you work on blogs you work on larger things but that even from a content perspective from your content manager who writes blog posts for a corporate website if it has a comment section you might suddenly need to age verify everybody who comes to your website. >> Right. Right. That's a >> quite a crazy step, but it could be one. And if somebody and this comes back to when you start legislating technology, you it's a very slippery slope as to what do you include in and what do you not include. >> Mhm. What's curious about all of these arguments though when people talk about regulating technology is that there's never a recognition of how much we've allowed these platforms to get away with because we didn't know it was going to work out this way. There's ne there's always a kind of like looking over our shoulder and saying, "Oh, well, but we can't undo that thing and you know this affects this human right and what have you." But at the same time, there's got to be a recognition that some of this stuff is genuinely harmful. You know, I don't want a seven-year-old in any way to be able to view certain types of content online. I I genuinely don't care about the rights of the tech company in that regard in a broader debate. I just don't want that seven-year-old to be able to access that content. And unfortunately, it's hitting a h like a walnut with a big hammer. There isn't fine grained control of this stuff, is there? And so uh but yet the tech companies are able to come and claim freedom of speech and all of these things uh uh because 20 years have passed and we never spoke up because we all thought for the longest period of time that social media was going to be the best thing that ever happened. Um >> in many ways we're probably quite lucky that the government didn't ever discover PBS boards back in the 80s otherwise it would have all been screaming the web would never have existed. >> Yeah that's true. So just a couple of comments on this. So, uh, Web Squadron saying he thinks it's a good idea. Um, Ree, hello, Ree, is saying, "We've got a there's an easy way to solve this. Uh, don't ban Tik Tok for under 16s. Just force every 40 40year-old to post content to it every day. Watch the under 16s stop using it." >> That's what happened with Facebook, right? Facebook has >> declining young audience because they just don't want to be in that place >> and for that matter. >> What's happened though is you've just found an even worse thing. So >> if you drive them away from and this is it. If you drive people away, >> they go somewhere else. >> That's what's going to happen. If if they block Facebook and Snapchat and everything else, the kids will just go somewhere else. >> There's always one more out there. There's always one more >> social media out there. >> The Chinese one that did around a few years ago that was like read something that briefly popped up was a >> scared America for a while and then it disappeared. No, no, I'm not. I vaguely rememberive. Yeah, >> red. >> I know. No, >> it'll come to me in the middle of the night as these things often do. >> Yeah, I mean scrolling. >> My 16-year-old has banned me from Tik Tok. So, that's true. >> Oh, good on good on the 16-year-old. >> Yeah, she's banned me from Tik Tok. She says, "Dad," and I'm like, "I'm going to post all the cringe-worthy stuff I possibly can on Tik Tok." And you know, and so this is a, you know, this is actually a good plan. Forget about, you know, let's let let us take control and and just anytime the kids find something that's that's cool, all we have to do is go in and make the most cringeworthy stuff and say, "Look, look at what I watch it." >> Yeah. And force them to watch it. >> We just scroll up a little bit, Nathan. >> On this one, >> we issue out those hat every 16y old and tell them it's fine, but we are monitoring you. >> That's right. the only input device you're allowed. >> Yeah. Yeah. If you if you use it, it's fine. You can use it as much as you like, but you have to wear that hat >> during the time that you're using it. They have to take it wherever you are. >> That's a great idea. Yeah, let's humiliate everybody. Um, thank you to those of you that have commented. Appreciate it. So, James, hello. And Elliot, hello. And Marcus Bennett, hello. Um, I'm just going to move on very quickly. So, right. And then uh this one, this is a very we're back in the um the WordPress fold for this one, aren't we, Tim? This is a a problem with a collection of plugins. Tell us more. It's it it was a problem with a collection of problem plugins, which if you happen to have any of these plugins, you should probably go and have a look at your website, make sure it is not currently uh hacked. But yeah, the the Optin Monster, I think, is the big one that most people will have heard of. Uh but Trust Pulse and Push Engage by the same company are slightly smaller plugins. They uh as part of their plug-in setup, they host some JavaScript which they put on a CDN to make it nice and fast. And so every time you load their pages into for certain things, it loads their CDN and pulls that JavaScript in. That JavaScript endpoint got compromised. Oh, now if you were just an everyday user going onto the site, you didn't see anything. It just was the usual things. But if you happen to be a logged in user, >> well then it tried to do nasty things effectively. It tried to put hidden back doors onto your website. So that's the first thing, public service announcement. If you recognize any of these plugins, you should probably go and check along on there. It basically all three plugins were um run by one company which you know was awesome motive. Uh the two larger plugins was the compromise was around uh June June 13th. Uh so these are appearing now sorry first one was June 12th then it was the last one was seen on June the 14th. June the 13th was when most of them were compromised. >> Okay. So, if you've got any of these free plugins on there, look on your website. You're looking for dodgy extra users that have appeared. Uh, because it's JavaScript, it had to take an action on it. It's not like it's executing code or doing an SQL injection. It had to take an action that the us on the user. So, >> right, >> it it's almost certainly going to be a dodgy user you're going to find on there. Uh what I found particularly interesting though was how the attackers got in to modify the the JavaScript in the first place. >> I think I might have been on the show when we when it was covered. Updraft Plus had a >> go few months ago. >> Well, somebody didn't update their version of Updraft Plus like good little boys and girls. >> Oh my goodness. So it's there's like a chain of WordPress vulnerabilities in this. So Updraft Plus had a problem which led to this >> CDN which led to the which led them to be able to compromise the sites that they they could then get to the CDN to compromise those which would allow them to compromise a lot of people. And obviously I I didn't look at the stats but I think Optim Monster is like nearly a million in sight in stores. >> It's it's not a small amount. >> No, no it's not. I mean it's a it's very popular isn't it? I would imagine most people have heard of it. Um >> I think I think Optin Monster is like one of those that is automatically installed with one of the hosts out there. So it okay that that million installs >> that million installs may or may not be um >> as a result >> actually. Yeah. >> Yeah. It may be a result of that um which is why it is so popular and and uh so yeah. Yeah. I guess this is why the plug-in repo requires any libraries such as that to be loaded locally. And I believe they've got a rule now that says you can't CDN stuff. >> Oh, like a Java file. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Oh, that's interesting. Okay. So, that that in effect would have mitigated this problem, but it it didn't because this problem obviously occurred. And this is hot off the press. Sounds like Tim's been scouring the uh the interwebs during the course of the weekend as well. So go and check that out for sure. So you think it'll be dodgy users? So look for anything I don't know beginning with Mark or Tim or something like that. >> Uh so they actually do have the details of the users that you're looking for. Uh >> okay. >> Uh developer\_appi1 uh with the amazing uh with the amazing uh email address of customer oneus.com. >> Other ones are dev\_xx. Oh yeah, I see that Gmail giveaway. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, uh yeah. So, those are the couple you' probably be looking for. There are some other examples of what to look for in there. Um the really the weird part of this, of course, is that uh this isn't to do with plug-in updating. So, that you don't need to you're not going to go and suddenly see that there's a new version of Optin Monster because this was being remotely pulled. It just affected it. It's it's so this is what why remotely pulling on third party CDNs is not necessarily a great idea which is part of the reason why web.org says no >> there but uh yeah it's it's a fun one partly because of that chain of events that happen. >> Yeah, that is interesting. That adds a certain complexity to it which is a bit sad really isn't it? But there we go. So if update everything always and then maybe >> and it would still been affected. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, there you go. Yeah, stuff happens. And my, you know, if the government are going to ban um under 16s from using social media, can they also, while they're at it, just ban hackers from just doing >> Oh, I thought you were going to ban Updraft Plus. And I was going to say, >> just ban all hackers. Can we not just say >> I think if you ban hackers though, then what are these under 16s without their social media going to do? >> What's going to do? No, no. We'll make we'll reenable Tik Tok for those users, obviously. >> Oh, obviously. >> It's fine. That's your prize. If you stop hacking, you can watch Tik Tok. >> I think you should reenable Snapchat so people can take pictures of their ceilings. >> To be honest, I want to see pictures of far more to be Tik Tok taking pictures of ceilings. That sounds great. >> It's the highest. It's what we evolved. >> Excuse me a moment. We came for Yeah. We started out as little single cellled organisms in the swamp and we finally evolved to taking pictures of the ceiling uh for Tik Tok and things like that. >> Multi-selled organisms that act like single cell organisms. That's even better. >> Let us move on. Let us move on. Right. Let me make sure I've got the right thing. Uh okay. Some WordPressy specific stuff. I'll just I'll go through these as quickly as I can because some of them there's not really a story there as such. But this is just to say that if you are into the WordPress project and you quite fancy uh assisting um there's a call for WordPress 7.0.x. So you know in the near future people to be uh release managers. Um so I've put a piece everything that we mentioned today that comes on the screen or you hear in your ear will um will be in the show notes. So if you're interested in that there is a piece on make.wordpress.org. I don't really have anything additional to say to that. This is kind of a nice story and a complex story as well, it turns out. So CERN, which I think is rightly given the moniker of kind of the the place where the internet was broadly invented, um has decided that >> the internet, >> I'm sorry, the web, you're quite right, the whole linking thing. Thank you, Tim. And the other Tim, both Tims, thank you both. Um you know, the Burners Lee one as well as the Nash one that I I wish I thought of that earlier. Um the the CERN millions of websites. I think it's like 280 something like that or no sorry 580 different um websites that they've got currently spanning some something over 500,000 pieces of content and I think that's like published content. So how many assets they've got and media files and MP3s and images and all of that. Goodness only knows. But they've made the decision to move away from Drupal. They were scanning around and looking for various different CMSs that they could use. And they looks like they had a whole process where they they put different CMSs up against each other. And WordPress in this case came out on top. And then this is a story written on the repository about what that means and the fact that they were obviously very proud of the the difficult work and then came to Word Camp Europe a couple of weeks ago and did the basically did the keynote speech to announce how they'd done it. It it fit to me at least anyway. I mean I could be wrong about this. It sounds like one of the most complicated WordPress builds imaginable. 500 diff 580 different uh websites as I described with the ability for users I think to spin up new websites on demand if they're working at CERN and they've got a a project that they want to suddenly air and it sounds like they've got a whole load of proprietary technology going on in the background but um it's quite a nice news story you know it's one of those ones where if you're a jobbing freelancer in the WordPress space being able to sort of say oh yeah CERN you know the birthplace of the web um they have a WordPress website and um yeah, anybody want to comment on that? >> It's a bit sad for Drupal. >> Yeah, it is a bit sad for Drupal. >> I agree. >> They as a project they have made so much strides recently and they really did dominate that space that sort of scientific and enterprise space and there's a little part of me that's like feels wrong to be taking away from them. At the same time, hello nice people at CERN who can now actually use their websites because presumably that was the reason they made the move in the first place. >> I wonder if it's just one of those kind of things that happens when scale happens if you know what I mean. Like it's just although Drupal did its thing and it sounds like it was a patchwork of different things on the Drupal side. So it evolved over time whereas now they've got the capacity to build from scratch. Maybe it was a hard decision. Maybe Drupal came out second place. I don't really know, but it was a close run thing, but they're obviously able to do everything all in one hit. So, the user interface for everybody will look familiar and what have you. But I I do know what you mean. Um, it's a shame, isn't it? Because you don't want WordPress to sort of kill Drupal off equally. You want WordPress to succeed. Yeah, I do know what you mean. But I also I also wonder in the back of my mind a little bit this was a decision that was made a couple years ago. Right. Yeah, that's right. So >> I wonder if they would make the same decision today that they made a couple years ago. >> Interesting. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, that's a good >> Again, I go back to the Drupal has made such a massive quick progression recently. some of the Drupal projects are quite >> significantly further ahead technologically than we are with WordPress. Um, >> now you can for what reasons and you can argue they're backwards compatible blah blah blah. There's lots of reasons why they can do go and do that and we can't. But, uh, yeah, I'd be really fascinated to get those original decision makers back in the room, have them look at the WordPress landscape right now and have them look at the Drupal landscape and say, would do you think you made the right decision? Yeah. >> Uh it would be fascinating and I suspect uh there would be a lot of squirming involved because they wouldn't >> it's long decision like like um Mark with a C said two years in the making and I think they've had two three I think it said three full-time people on this for the last two years not only making those decisions but then doing the implementation and the implementation isn't quite over. It seems like there's still a few months of um of roll out for various different things that still got to be ticked over. But >> there must have been something quite significant to make them move that amount of data from one platform to another. >> Yeah. >> I mean this decision can't have been made lightly. >> No. >> But you know like Tim says it's >> what was wrong with the original? I mean I hey I welcome them to WordPress 100%. >> But it's a significant amount of work to move from one platform to another. Can you imagine the person who just went into the room and said, "Yeah, well, I don't like Drupal. I'm going to use WordPress." And they were like, >> "That's probably what happened." >> Yeah. Senior. >> I've seen that in many a web project. You know, you get the new IT guy that comes in and says, "Nope, I don't like it in green. I want it in blue." And that's it. >> That's it. We're doing blue. >> That's right. Um anyway, big big cudos and obviously it was um something that they wanted to shout about and came and did the the keynote at Word Camp Europe and and the keynote I I I don't really remember a particular session being labeled a keynote other than the sessions from for example Mary Hob or Joseph as was or Matt but this obviously was determined to be significant enough and yeah anyway there we go. So that's on the repository. Um, Mike Johnson and Ray Mor uh wrote that one up on the 10th of June. And uh yeah, let's move on. Some of these I will get to. Some of them Oh, I don't know what to say about this one. Um, so this is So, we got a facelift. I confess I think I've been to this site once before. I genuinely have never bought anything from merkantile.wordpress.org. Maybe you haven't either. Maybe you didn't know that there was a place, a genuine official place to go and buy official WordPress swag, but that's what it is. Merkantile.wordpress.org. And they've had a facelift. Now, I'm not going to go to the wayback machine and look as to what it used to look like, but this is what it now looks like. The only thing which is jumping out at me, and I'm not not going to say too much about it. That is an interesting font is all I'm going to say. And I'll pause and I'll let nobody Yeah. Anyway, there we go. An interesting. >> We're not even going there. >> How strange. We all said they had a mute button. >> Yeah. Yeah, that's right. We said so much more before the show actually started about that font, didn't we? Um, but anyway, we There it is. Merkantile.wordpress. >> Does anybody know why it's called Merkantile and not merch or swag? >> I'm going to guess it was beer. It's probably beer. Somebody just had a few beers and, you know, getting by deciding what the subdomain was. Merkantile. Let's go with that. That's a big word. >> Is this still a WP Builds merch site? >> Uh, no. I think I killed that a few years ago. You were You were one of the few people that bought a mug. >> Bought a mug. >> Well, we have the font for you if you decide to resurrect. >> Bring it back. >> Yeah. Um, anyway, there you go. Go and check. Apparently James says it's called the Black Forest font, which clearly we got it wrong earlier. >> No, I think we got it about right. >> That's about right. >> But yeah, anyway, there you go. Um, this is my See, you see, it's a whole thing. This is the first time hearing about Merkantile. That was exactly the same for me. and I went this one time and then the only reason I've gone back is to um is to you know just sort of talk about the fact that the they've obviously changed it a little bit. I think that's absolutely but this is the place you go. I don't know if it's where for example word camp organizers go. Maybe Tim you'll know more about that than I would. Um when they buy their official swag which they bring and give away and what have you. I don't know if that's part of the process of it. Um >> no because you could do that through word camp. >> You do that through word camp. Okay. Yeah. So, okay. Anyway, you can obviously see you can buy the usual arrangement of uh t-shirts and wapos and you know hoodies and WordPress mods. >> Apparently, we need to click on the product. The loading is amazing. >> Okay, let me let's all watch the loading. So, let's go for the What should we go for? What you want? >> Okay, let's go. >> Let's go for that one. >> Oh, THE LOADING IS >> OH, THAT was okay. All right. Well, now all is forgiven. >> All is we have a completely unnecessary loading wapoo. Here we go. >> Yeah, >> it's pretty. >> I do actually like that. That's a very nice >> It's got an OS aesthetic to it, hasn't it? To me, that it feels like we're almost like in an operating system. >> Are they trying to like make it look a little bit like the uh WordPress back end with the uh uh media library type look? >> May. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I'm liking it. The more that I see, the more that I like it. So, let's see what we can get. A few of these. Add to cart. What does that Oh, that was nice. >> Yeah, these are all good, aren't they? I like these little transitions. What does that do? No, that Oh, okay. >> Profits to the WordPress foundation. >> Yeah, that's right. I'm not going to buy a I love women I love WP women's t-shirt um because it probably won't fit me. But they're about 27. >> Um anyway, there you go. Go and check it out. merkantile.wordpress. What was it? What? WordPress.org. Um, I didn't realize you could get >> And that's mercantile without a h in it because that would be too obvious. >> Merchantile. Yeah. >> Okay. Now, I need to go back to the wayback machine and see what it's like. Yeah, I didn't do that, but it'll probably not have this font. I wouldn't have imagined the Black Forest font. Right, right, right, right, right, right. back to uh the repository. This is Ry. Five for the future gets its biggest overhaul in years with new pledge and profile pages. So um I think one of the things about five for the future. So five for the future is this endeavor to label 5% of what you do as a WordPress thing. And the idea being that if everybody put in 5% of their avail if you make a living out of WordPress, wouldn't it be a good idea to give 5% of something back? So that could be 5% of your I don't know revenue or 5% of your time or what have you. Um and then in that way you'd be able to keep the project going forwards. However, um in in the past, the way that um contributions to the WordPress project have been displayed has been perhaps less than desirable because it was my understanding was in the past you the mere utterance of the words, well, I'm going to contribute, I don't know, 5% of my time, was enough to get you on that page, but there was no checks and balances to make sure that you did the thing that you had promised to do. nor indeed that the effect of the things that you did was profound or moderate or what have you. And so that has now been brought to the four. Um and so now there's going to be an endeavor in the future to make sure that things are tracked. So the things that you said you were going to do that you did do get tracked, but also to put like a value onto the things that you did. So for example, I don't know, uh translating a single character in a string might not be the same as um I don't know like making a major security update to core or something like that. They're obviously poles apart, but you get the idea that certain things will have more weight and in that way um perhaps people will be able to get some cudos whether they wish to have it or not out of it and then those people can then display that on their WordPress.org or profile. Um, and presumably that will then help their future chances, I don't know, looking for employment or maybe employers just directly reaching out to people because they can see that this person over here is, I don't know, a valued member of the community who in the past wouldn't have been recognized. So, there we go. That's um that's been updated. Um, don't know if anybody wants to contribute anything to that. >> Who gets >> I'm a little >> Oh, sorry. >> Let's go with Let's go with Mark. Okay, just go with Tim. I was It doesn't matter because Tim said what I was going to say. >> Oh, okay. >> Yeah, it's like who decides this? This is you actually >> And who assigns the score? I mean, what is how do you score it? >> Because you you Nathan, sorry, said uh that the changing a character in a string was somehow less important than the security update. Now that may be how you view it. But if that character of the string >> meant that it now be that it became access WordPress became accessible to an entire country. >> Which one is more valuable? >> Well, I've got a solution to this. I know what we can do. Let's just put Tim Nash in charge. Tim, can we all vote on that? Can we >> No, no, no. Raise your hand. Everybody on this panel. >> Why don't we Why don't we let Anthropic decide? >> Okay. Yeah. Let's get that whatever you want. >> Let it use the latest. >> No, no, I don't know. You're quite right, Tim. Um, and that presumably would be a body of work and presumably that body of work would need to be made public, but it's bound to be fiddly, isn't it? Especially when you get into the weeds of it. like you know if if you translated a sentence in a string or you translated 20 sentences or I don't know or you committed something crucial like I said in in terms of security to core I don't really know how none of it's going to be fair is it I suppose at some point you just have to say that's a good fit that that kind of feels about right >> but if you're going to gify this and if it's going to be a prestige thing that's going to go on resumes then it sort of has to be because otherwise you're le opening yourself up to both abuse, internal friction. >> It's got when you end up with a scenario where one company all their commits are accepted and go into core and therefore they got shiny buttons. Well, the other people have got full-time people doing triaging and putting the commits in, but then you've only got a small group of gatekeepers who are out. So it it just Yeah, >> I know. >> This is one of those times that you're like, "This was a stupid system to start with. It would have probably been better to take it out back and just say it's not come back. It's gone." And five five for the future was a lovely concept. We'd like you to keep it in your hearts. We think you should be putting 5% of your time, money, or whatever into this, but we're not going to track it because if we track it, we have to track it properly. And there ain't no way we can do that and there's always going to be somebody who's going to complain about it. >> So what I'm showing on the screen, sorry if you're listening to this, but we're showing um so for example, you can see that there are three people mentioned and they all have what what has been termed high impact contributions. I I presume that's a moniker which has been attached to the the contributions. I don't know what the other layers are if you like you know what the other levels are but you know this this person Aki 81 high impact contributions uh Rammon um 56 and Lena 58 high impact contributions and then it lists out what the areas in which they contribute so which of the teams they contributed to and so on. Yeah, the devil will be in the detail here. And I I think Tim, you're certainly right to say that it will never be perfect. Um, and it will never be something that wouldn't be controversial. You know, if you've put a certain amount in and you believe your contributions are worth the same as somebody over there who did something entirely different. >> And are they going to redefine what counts as a contribution? because in the past things like word camp organizing and volunteering at word camps and meetups and things like that didn't count for five for the future and yet those are a huge part of why WordPress is what it is. So >> you know are they going to redefine that as well and I don't know that they're going to do that. Um, assigning a scoring system is great, I suppose, if you can like actually quantify what you're scoring >> and the ability to for it not to be gamed, I suppose, will be interesting as well. So, you know, if you're working in a corporate environment and your boss brings you in and you know, you've been in the office for the last five years and they can track everything that you've done and they can see directly what you've done. That's one thing which feels like what this is trying to be something like um you know what is it continual professional development kind of consultation where we figured out what you did and what your value is to the company and so on. But this is not that is it? Because we're relying on people to say that they did certain things and for somebody somewhere giving that a a quot a level a value of worth and um yeah that'll be interesting. >> So this this table here we're looking at which has the this is just this is just contributors to core though, right? This is not >> I think so. Yeah, this is >> the overall future score. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. So >> but I mean that that in itself is an example where they've clearly already you've highlighted they like this is for core this is we're showing course of >> would accessibility team have get any scoring do do team leads now get to choose and select the pointers do they get even point the whole thing is just like um >> all over the place >> it is going to be points for my mates and to make sure that certain companies never get to have those points Well, so that's an interesting thing as well, you know, could it be could it be gamed by companies in that way, you know, and yeah, fascinating. >> We already have an issue where there are um certain particularly universities >> uh where they we've seen it where there universities have got classes uh in computer programming and their one of their assignments is go find bugs in WordPress. >> Oh, nice. So you get a bunch of triage things into the into Bugzilla and you get a bunch of triage where it's like uh why are you talking about this bug that I've you know these we've already got 10 versions of this bug and it's I can so see certain universities and certain classes saying you must get a certain number of points >> and then we're gonna get this I need this I you must you need to sign this off for me I need these points I need these points I need Right. >> And and maybe that's going to be start of the company saying well actually you can't just contribute the thing that we you want to contribute to because you now have to a points quot to meet. And the ultimate thing is while this has clearly been designed for professional volunteers, which is a contradiction in term, but we we're talking more towards people who are sponsored for this because your person who wants to volunteer wants to work on the thing that they're passionate about. >> Yeah. >> Okay. And you're you're going to anybody who turns around to them and says you are not valued because or worse you are valued at one point. >> Oh, how is that going to get them to carry on volunteering? >> Okay, that's I haven't really thought about that. That's fascinating. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So, there it is. Anyway, let's just pop it back on the screen. So, this is this is Ry from the repositories um sort of summation of where we're at at the moment. So, the idea would be that there would be these pledges and it would make it would be amended on your profile page and what have you. So, if you've got any thoughts on that, um, please make a comment at the bottom of >> I will say that I like the fact that they're thinking that five for the future needs to be overhauled because I think we've all agreed with that for a long time. I'm just not sure this is the right direction for it. >> And I don't want to and I don't actually want to like criticize >> uh the person I forget the name. Uh >> oh. Was it Janice? >> Jan Yanni Iliov. Yeah. >> I don't I I don't want to criticize. At least there's an attempt there to do something. >> Right. >> And Right. And I just don't agree with the approach personally. So, >> okay. All right, there we go. You can check that out in the WP Builds newsletter, which will come out tomorrow. Or just go to the repository. It's called Five for the Future Gets Its biggest overhaul in years with new pledge and profile pages. Okay. Right. Speaking of um things that you might get contribution cudos for, one of them might be, I don't know, helping out at a WordPress event. And there's a couple of different takes. Interesting. Couple of different takes on WordPress events this year. On the one hand, we have um friend of the show Remaster. He comes on the show quite a bit and he's been on the podcast lots of times. He's produced an article uh entitled the WordPress conference we need next. You can find it at remaster.com and then if you go to the blog, it was produced on the the 9th of June. And in that, Remus is um talking about how as much as he loves Word Camps and he's been involved in setting up Word Camp Europe and whatnot, uh he would like there to be, how to describe it in a very brief amount of time, I suppose, something a little bit more professional, something which rather than it being lots of um people who come and have things that they wish to say, maybe it's more like a screening process and those talks are a little bit more de diving into a particular topic. And one of the threads that he seems to talk about is having like a theme, maybe a whole day where there's a theme running through that day. And whilst that theme might not tightly bind to every subject, at least you can sort of map it back. So that on the one hand is uh Remus' thoughts and you can go and read that and uh go and check it out. And then and then like it's almost like we're in a uh like they couldn't be more polar opposite in a way. Then you've got um Nick Hamsy who has got this idea well the article is called WordPress is the doorway not the room and Nick I think just wants to have good fun um he wants WordPress events to be just a basically quite a lot of fun and um and he's got a few ideas which I think I'll share because they tickled me I thought they were quite good so uh the so his idea is that fun is injected in it's not about professionalism necessarily He's basically saying you don't remember the talks that you go to. You only remember the the nice interactions that you had in the hall, the the strange curious character that you met and so on. So he he says he's got eight ideas that could be presentations and he says something that isn't WordPress. So it there'll be a whole track of people who teach things that have got nothing to do with WordPress. Five minutes light one rule. It can't be to do with WordPress. It could be about your job or the text that you use. anything like that >> or sourdough as he said. >> Yeah, sourdough. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Show us your setup. So, again, just show us the way that you use WordPress, which I think is quite interesting because I bet all of us have got a different way of doing that. Um, petty grievances, open mic. You just get up and moan basically, which I think is quite good and and nobody's allowed to shut you down. >> Isn't that this show? >> Well, that's exactly this show. Yeah. Well, we've done that, but we don't have a stage. Uh, adopt a project. So the idea is it's like a dating show. You show what you've got, other people show what they've got, and by the end of the session, hopefully some people have combined their projects. Human library, but weirder. Borrow a person for 15 minutes, then make a catalog. Um, far stranger than expert in X. That one sort of speaks for itself. Bad ideas, brainstorm. This is just totally for humor. Um, you pitch something and then everybody has to design the worst possible solution to that idea. Uh, let me let me welcome you to my entire history of building WordPress websites. That >> I was going to say I believe that's how WordPress has been built for the last years. I'm not sure we could change our minds on this. >> Certainly the way I >> bring this public uh skills bartering called the swap meet and then the hallway track on stage. So you literally get a bunch of people to come up and talk on stage. I think they're quite interesting. It's obviously in stark contrast to what Remus is saying, although I'm not I'm not entirely sure that Remus wouldn't want a lot of that fun injecting as well, but uh having just been to Word Camp Europe, it seemed like a really well-run event to me. So, I don't know. Maybe stuff will change, maybe stuff won't change, but any thoughts on that before I move on? We're quickly running out of time. >> Well, I think his comments about, you know, he he's mentioning Press Comp and and other events there. I think those cater to some of those more corporate needs. uh and developer needs, you know. Um I've been I went to Pres last year, >> not this year, but um I couldn't make it this year, but um >> that was there was a lot of product developers there and and things like that that I found was that that different audience was really great to be to mingle around. >> Um but I've always I've always thought there's a gap in the market for more of a developer focused kind of word camp. Uh because yeah yes yes WordPress is used for blogs but there there's a huge community of people out there using it just to build websites in general and there's some quite complex websites as well >> and loop filled that is meant to fill that loop >> they really struggled with people at loop in the UK just getting bumps on seats was problematic for them. >> Yeah speaking of loop it's coming back isn't it? Um, it's going to be in I think Michigan >> this year. I I I want to say Ann Arbor or something. I don't know. I heard something. Anyway, it's back. Um, yeah, >> later on during this year. Do you know what I do you know what I think? I think for many pe like I'm >> This idea just occurred to me. See if this lands with you, right? See if this makes any sense. I think Do I actually think this Hold on, let me pause what I'm about to say. Yeah, I think this is true. I think that the majority of people >> just so you know, you've been speaking through the whole of this period >> about Yeah. Yeah. No, that's right. I do this out loud. It's fine. Um the I think that a significant proportion of the people who attend Word Camp, like the one we just been to, Word Camp EU, I think they're going to socialize and it is it is framed around a conference because that's a framing which works. What I'm trying to say is, you know, you put on some speakers, that's that's enough to drag, let's say, 70% of the people along, and there'll be 30% of the people, what I'm just making up numbers, who do wish to attend those sessions, >> but they're really there just to hang out, socialize, maybe do a bit of networking, but just hanging out. And so just the the the fact that there's an event, seriously, I would turn up to a word camp with no presentations. I would totally turn up to that. >> But but that's the thing is I mean I remember back whenever I started, the first word camp or the second word camp I went to was 200 11 or something like that. I don't know. But those had like they had a developer track, they had a marketing track, they had a they had a design track and you knew what you were getting. And for people who have never been to a word camp >> and it's their first one, they're actually they actually are going there to learn something. They don't know about the hallway track. We go there to socialize because we've been to enough word camps that we know people. We see people that we want to connect with or reconnect with or whatever. you know, you're in England, I'm in the United States. We have an opportunity to like to to see each other face to face and and but but new people to it, they actually go there for information and maybe to meet people, but that's a secondary function. So, I think it depends on kind of where you are in your journey. >> Yeah. >> Within WordPress. And and for those of us in on this show, we've been to enough word camps that it is about the the socialization and reconnecting and networking and all that and not about the the presentations. I've gone to word camps where I haven't gone to a single presentation. >> I mean, it has to cater to so many different types of people. There will be beginners there. There will be developers there. There will be people that blog. There will be >> sponsors there. There'll be the likes of us that I mean, I I spend most of my time saying hello to people. and and stopping in the the hall and saying hello to people that I know. >> Um it's uh so yeah, but I like >> I spend most of my time >> in the hallway trying to not bump into you. So >> that's true. Yeah, cuz I've been with you for four days and that's enough. >> Yeah. >> Sorry. Carry on. >> That's five days too many. >> You should see the photos. >> Yeah. Yeah. No. No. We're not looking at the photos. No. Yeah, >> I've got Oh, there was one photo that I was going to show and I forgot to bring it. Oh, I have a I have a great photo of Mark in an overall. Let's just say that. Um, you remember the video? >> Let the minds wander. >> Yeah, it was good. Um, but I I'm I I genuinely think that I would turn up to an event with not necessarily much in the way of organization around like the presentation and all that kind of stuff. However, I'd be curious because of my personality, I would be curious to play around with some of Nick's ideas like that wackiness would appeal to me, but maybe it wouldn't appeal to uh let's say Remus given the article that he's just >> So, you have two tracks. You have the wackiness track and you have the you have the serious track. >> I would love that personally. >> And people would still and people would still end up in the hallway >> in between. Yeah. Doing going to neither >> all day long and going to neither. So yeah, >> that's right. >> The idea that Mark with a C said about a track for developers, a track for marketing, and that >> that that sounds like a great idea just >> like the way they used to do it. >> That's that's how they used to do it. And >> I remember the first one I went to, I went to the developer track and I didn't understand a word of it, but I forced myself to sit through every single presentation that day. I didn't know a single person, you know. >> Um, >> so some comments on this. So, uh, Imran agrees with Remus. So, that sort of more professional side of things would appeal to, uh, to him. Um, speaking of Loopcom, Grand Rapids. There you go. Grand Rapids, Michigan. And the dates are September, late September 23rd to 24th. So, it's coming. I think you can now buy tickets. I saw the new website is available, I think. I really want WordPress, says Daniel, to push to activity pubs for social media functions alongside blog functions. >> Daniel wasn't here earlier when we were talking about the social media ban. >> Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Who would run a Masttodon install in that scenario would be the the question. I certainly wouldn't. Um that'd be interesting. Right. There's a few people coming in. D watch the replay. D was just people saying s saying various things. the webinar. Sorry, missed Mark and you and you, Nathan. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, we um I was locked away in a couple. >> So many people. It was I was sad actually after the event. I was like, "Oh, didn't see them. Didn't see them." And I saw all these posts on social media that currently isn't banter. >> Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's the one allowed use of it. Um Elliot who lives just down the road from me, I always say that. Uh first word camp, he didn't know what to expect. I ended up spending most of the time walking around and talking rather than attending talks. >> Only went to a couple um initially thought I would go to more talks and I read somewhere Elliot I think it was on a blog you put out or a social media post or something like that that you're inclined to go again. So it was obviously an experience that you on some level enjoyed um whether or not you want to go. >> For Elliot you're not alone. This is sort of what most people do that they they will find themselves going, "Oh, I'm going to go to this talk, this talk, this talk, this talk." And then >> you miss they just end up singing the it just to go sort of swing it back. You can have these two things separated as well. We can go back to having bar camp style unconferences. We can have uh beginner word camp days, but these all require organizing. Yeah. >> And the reason that you found that the multiple tracks don't work as well as you hope they would is that you have to then pivot to attract to multiple audiences. You need to get multiple different sponsors and you have to get the people to speak. >> So many word camp talks are rubbish in the nicest possible way to volunteers who are giving their time. So they and they're often >> very personalized, very great, but they're also rubbish talks for a beginner. >> Yeah. And for someone who is more in the middle middle range, they provide some but limited value. And then for people who most people who are there just to socialize, they're not going to the talks. So we have a problem that what we're trying to teach and what we're educating with is the wrong thing for the target of the people in the room. The people in the room want something that is different and don't come back. And we're not yet. And we have organizers who want them to organize events. They don't necessarily want to organize a beginners's little friend little camp for beginners. And that makes it really difficult. And one of the things we struggled massively with in the UK is right down to the meetup level. Who do you pitch a meetup to? Do you if you want because if you want to have a word camp or you want to have conferences, >> you really do have to show that there is a community existing >> or speaking of pitch outside of the community. And we spend so much time pitching inside our own community through our own through our meetups and things and saying, "Nope, we are the community. we're doing this that maybe we should actually just blanketly go nope. If you want to have a nice community event, come to the uh barbecue in July at WordPress London. If you're want to come to a professional conference, cool. That's what Pres, Loop Conf, and Word Camp Europe and US are and Asia are because those are not real word camps. >> They're just ridiculous amounts of money flown around, etc. Word camps. Maybe we have to redefine what they are, but they can be the new gateway. They c where we could have a little bit of fun. >> But we can have these separate things, but only if people are willing to volunteer and do it. >> Yeah. >> And to do that, they have to believe people will come. And at the moment, we are struggling to even get local user groups up and going. Certainly in the UK, we are finding it difficult to get attendance to these events. And when people are coming, we're often mixing groups of people together and hoping it's going to work. And sometimes it does, and sometimes people leave disappointed. I haven't seen it recently, but there was a statistics knocking around on number of repeat visitors to word camps and it was shockingly low. >> Oh god. >> People came to one word camp in one in the city one year who then didn't come back. which says we a problem keeping people on those word counts. >> Speaking of um meetups, I'm just going to quickly mention that if you're in the UK, this is very London specific, I suppose, but WPLDN's June meetup uh is free. You know, it's ready for anybody. It is happening. It's always the last Thursday of the month. And you can see here it's happening on June 25th. So basically 10 days from now. Gosh that's quick. Um and there's a couple of speakers. This Raquel um and who is actually the organizer of um press conf. So talking about things associated with that owning well in this case it's owning sorry owning your why the only content the only constant in a world of change. And then we've also got Paul Half Penny uh from Filter who will be further down. I can't see where his Oh, there we go. Speaker. There we go. Uh abilities not chat bots. How WordPress 7 changes everything. So if you fancy coming along, it's totally free. Um June 25th, right? Okay. Um just a quick one. Loop WP, which is a newsletter which has been going under the opaces of Simon Harper for many many years. um is is I think I think it's fair to say unless something dramatic changes, it's going to close down. It looks like this was the last issue. Obviously, if it's been going weekly uh for 210 articles, I don't know if there were hiatus along the road or anything, but that's four years right there. Um he's now decided that the calculus of worth time and money versus what he gets out of it, I suppose, is no longer worth it. So there's another sort of story which maps a little bit to what you were saying Tim about struggling to get people involved in the community. Anyway, I would just like to say that quite a lot of the content that's gone into this show has been taken from that newsletter. So thank you many years of hard work. It's been >> fair to see that one go. >> Labor of love sometimes, isn't it? And then at some point the labor becomes a little bit more >> difficult to justify as is the case there. So, right. >> I think he he quoted some sort of how much it time it takes him and what that would be an hourly wage >> and it was just like, yeah. >> And he was putting it out for free. >> It was a great newsletter, but there comes a point where people have to say, >> "I'm not getting what I want out of this. I'm not getting the enjoyment out of this." And when you volunteer to do things, >> you've got to enjoy it. And I think that might be a good summary for a lot of the stories today. >> You've got to enjoy your volunteering otherwise. Why do it? >> I'm going to write that one down as today's title. You've got to enjoy it. You've got to enjoy it. I can't write that quickly, but there we go. There's some rough scribbling which equates to that. So, thank you, Simon. Basically, is what I'm saying there. I appreciate it over the over the years. Right, we are we're basically out of time, so I'll just quickly rip through these. See if there's anything which I think we should dwell on. No, not really. We've done that one. No, I think Well, maybe this one quickly. You wanted to bring this one up, did you, Mark? Was there a thing? Was that connected to another thing? >> Yeah, it's related to another one, but it was I mean very quickly. If you're using the new WordPress 7 connectors for connecting to anything AI, then have a look at this article and it'll tell you some better ways of storing your API keys securely. Oh, so it's not it's not WS form specific, but it's on the WS form website safe. >> I I just saw I saw a lot of talk online about the fact that they were storing API keys in the WP options table and this gives you some uh guidance on how to do that in other ways, but also how to lock down your keys in uh these providers to make sure that you don't get a runaway of huge amounts of use of tokens. >> Okay? because you put this put this stuff live. Somebody could come to your site and just start chewing up your >> API usage. >> Well, we had a we had a piece that was going to be related to that, but we never we basically ran out of time. We ended up talking about, you know, things like brushes quite a lot, didn't we? And uh that'll rob you of whole hours, it turns out. So, um injuries, it's nothing to do with me. >> So, that's it. I think sorry that we've not managing to get to all those bits and pieces but hopefully that's been uh that's been all right. So there we go. Um it only remains for me to say a big thank you to the guests. So we got Mark over there, Mark C with a C at the end. We got Mark with a K at the end. And then we've got Tim with a, you know, normal spelling of Tim. Nothing curious about that at all. It's just Tim. And then me as well. I was here apparently. Uh, I don't know if that counts, but I never mention myself. Anyway, here I am. Uh, maybe maybe this will be the last one. I'm going to follow Simon Harper's lead. This is going to be the last episode of WP World. >> Don't say things like that until it'll go into the AI and nobody'll Yeah. get read into the transcription. >> Rig 2026. Oh, >> it is going to be the last episode until next Monday. See what I did there? So, we will be back in a week's time. We always are. Uh I I really enjoy doing the show and it's very nice when I get a panel of people like you who are fun and humorous and interesting and uh willing to just shoot the breeze with me for 90 minutes. It's very good. >> And he did not use the word smart in any of that just in case no one noticed. Yeah. >> Yeah. I appreciate that. I'm gonna say, yeah, that's going to be the title of the show. >> I smart five times. >> Thank you. Um, you're all very very smart. I I I love you all. Um, and of obviously if you've come in and made some comments, I appreciate that as well. Thank you very much. >> He also loves you if you come in and commented, including what we had a comment about uh they wanted to promote Mug. So, >> what's what's that? Reys wanted to remind people that they could go to Edward co-working if you wanted to go and hang out in Manchester. >> Oh, okay. Thank you. Read that into the record. Yeah, I'll do that one quickly because Reese is nice. Uh, I can't. It's gone. There it is. Uh, Manchester WordPress user group pitches it as WordPress and co-working. We have 10% off of folks who just come for the co-working element. Okay, thank you. Uh, what's the plan for WP? When WPLDN's do you go for a meal? Uh, we go to the bar. There's a bar literally like I don't know like 8 seconds walk around the back. It's next door basically. Um, so you go there afterwards and just hang out and people usually are there for an hour or two, something like that. At this time of year, it'd be lovely. >> Have a beer or a lemonade. >> That's right. Um, >> because all I can say is, Iran, bring your mortgage uh for the bar. You know, it's just insane. But, you know, it's the same wherever you go in central London. It's absolutely nuts. So, there we go. We just need to do the handwave of joy, which is now what I've called it, the handwave of joy. There we go. The handwave of joy. That's lovely. Thank you so much. We'll be back next week. If you three want to hang around and shoot the breeze for 10 minutes or so, that'd be lovely as well. And uh we'll see you next week for the next episode. Take it easy. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye., This Week in WordPress #376, YouTube, 01kv8a3y7kr2t2s1eeb5a8z4p0.