Understanding Cultural Appropriation vs. Appreciation  ## Metadata - Author: [[Underrepresented In Tech]] - Full Title: Understanding Cultural Appropriation vs. Appreciation - Category: #articles - Document Note: --- tags: [#cultural-appropriation, #inclusion, #diversity, #open-source, #fashion, #tech-community] - #cultural-appropriation - #representation - #WordPress Author: Underrepresented in Tech Podcast (Hosts: Michelle & Sa) Source: Underrepresented in Tech Podcast – "Understanding Cultural Appropriation vs. Appreciation" Reference: [YouTube Transcript](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jWqY8INyoM) date created: 2025-05-16 09:59 --- # Title: Understanding Cultural Appropriation vs. Appreciation — Underrepresented in Tech Podcast ## Table of Contents:  - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [00:04 – The Kafia: Cultural Significance & Support](#0004--the-kafia-cultural-significance--support) - [02:12 – Appropriation vs. Appreciation: The Critical Line](#0212--appropriation-vs-appreciation-the-critical-line) - [06:42 – Context Matters: Symbolism & History](#0642--context-matters-symbolism--history) - [08:56 – Nuance, Permission & Wearing With Care](#0856--nuance-permission--wearing-with-care) - [13:13 – Hairstyles: Heritage vs. Appropriation](#1313--hairstyles-heritage-vs-appropriation) - [15:18 – Deep History: Why Cultural Symbols Must Be Respected](#1518--deep-history-why-cultural-symbols-must-be-respected) - [19:46 – Context, Commerce & Authentic Support](#1946--context-commerce--authentic-support) - [21:46 – Hair Discrimination in Schools & Workplaces](#2146--hair-discrimination-in-schools--workplaces) - [25:18 – Community Engagement & Closing Thoughts](#2518--community-engagement--closing-thoughts) - [📖 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-diversity-equity-inclusion-and-belonging-assessment) - [✅ Logical validity](#-logical-validity) - [🔍 DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis-prompt) - [🔍 SEO Evaluation](#-seo-evaluation) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) --- ## 📝 Summary: This podcast episode, hosted by Michelle and Sa, explores the nuanced differences between cultural appropriation and cultural appreciation, especially as they relate to fashion, hairstyles, and symbols in multicultural and tech communities. Through personal stories, research, and candid discussion, the hosts clarify when cultural borrowing is respectful versus when it is exploitative or harmful, emphasizing the importance of context, consent, and power dynamics. --- ## 📖 Main Content: ### 🗒️ Notes #### [00:04 – The Kafia: Cultural Significance & Support](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jWqY8INyoM&t=4) - Michelle introduces the episode, wearing a kafia (Palestinian scarf) and discusses her intention to support the Palestinian community. - Sa explains the meaning of the kafia, its symbols (olive tree, freedom, resistance), and its pan-regional use. - Importance of sourcing authentic items—Michelle buys from a Palestinian store to ensure her support is meaningful. - The kafia is worn worldwide, but respect for its history is key. #### [02:12 – Appropriation vs. Appreciation: The Critical Line](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jWqY8INyoM&t=132) - Cultural appropriation is defined as adopting elements of another culture without understanding or respect. - Examples: Wearing a beret or cowboy hat is usually fine; cornrows, bantu knots, or afros by non-Black people is appropriation. - Appreciation involves asking questions, researching significance, and respecting cultural boundaries. - Public figures (e.g., Adele) have been criticized for inappropriate use of culturally significant styles. #### [06:42 – Context Matters: Symbolism & History](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jWqY8INyoM&t=402) - Sa explains how cultural symbols can vary greatly in meaning depending on the country or community. - Wearing a kafia or duku should be done with awareness; don’t trivialize symbols (e.g., making a kafia into a tank top). - Fashion items like dashiki or sari may be fine in some contexts, but misuse strips them of cultural meaning. - Always research before wearing or displaying cultural symbols. #### [08:56 – Nuance, Permission & Wearing With Care](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jWqY8INyoM&t=536) - The need for nuance—some cultural items (like sari, hijab, duku) can be worn respectfully by outsiders in certain contexts. - Best practice is to ask community members for permission or guidance. - Michelle shares that wearing a hijab in solidarity was discouraged by her Muslim friends for her safety, not cultural reasons. - Wearing cultural clothing without context can inadvertently cause harm. #### [13:13 – Hairstyles: Heritage vs. Appropriation](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jWqY8INyoM&t=793) - Braids and similar hairstyles: distinction between culturally appropriate use (e.g., Swedish heritage) vs. appropriation (box braids, cornrows by non-Black people). - Misusing heritage as a pretext (e.g., "Vikings wore box braids") is problematic and often based on misinformation. - Encourage using Google, direct research, and community conversations. #### [15:18 – Deep History: Why Cultural Symbols Must Be Respected](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jWqY8INyoM&t=918) - Many cultural items have a history rooted in oppression or survival (e.g., Blackface, discriminatory traditions in the Netherlands). - Symbols such as the kafia or afro carry deep significance from histories of resistance. - Power dynamics: Appropriation by dominant groups from repressed cultures perpetuates harm. - Always understand historical context before adoption. #### [19:46 – Context, Commerce & Authentic Support](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jWqY8INyoM&t=1186) - Buying cultural items? Ensure economic support goes to the originating community. - Avoid commercial exploitation—don’t buy from mass-producers when you can support real artisans. - Appreciation is shown by respect, context, and supporting the community’s future. #### [21:46 – Hair Discrimination in Schools & Workplaces](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jWqY8INyoM&t=1306) - Real-world discrimination: Schools and employers forcing Black students/workers to change their natural hair. - Legal cases and lawsuits highlight systemic racism and the need for policy change. - Advocacy for cultural acceptance in policy and community guidelines is ongoing. #### [25:18 – Community Engagement & Closing Thoughts](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jWqY8INyoM&t=1518) - Podcast closes with encouragement for ongoing conversation and learning. - Invitation to WordCamp Europe and continued engagement with the Underrepresented in Tech community. - Reminders to listen, research, and honor other cultures—especially within global tech communities. --- ## 📖 References: - [Underrepresented in Tech Podcast](https://underrepresentedintech.com) - [Understanding Cultural Appropriation vs. Appreciation – YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jWqY8INyoM) - [NPR: Cultural Appropriation and Its Effects](https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/) - [The Crown Act – Official Site](https://www.thecrownact.com/) --- ## 🗣️ Paraphrase: 1. **Original:** "Wearing cultural symbols requires understanding their significance to avoid appropriation. The scarf symbolizes struggle and freedom, and wearing it casually can diminish its meaning. Cultural symbols, like the duku and dashiki, vary in significance across different African countries, requiring awareness of their history." **Paraphrase:** It's important to know what a cultural symbol means before wearing it, because casual use can lessen its importance—like a Palestinian scarf that represents resistance. Clothing such as the duku or dashiki holds unique significance in different African regions, and understanding that history is crucial before adopting those styles. 2. **Original:** "At t - Summary: In this heartfelt and insightful episode, Michelle and Samah explore the complexities of cultural appropriation versus cultural appreciation. Sparked by a discussion around wearing a keffiyeh, the conversation broadens to include traditional garments, hairstyles, food, and religious symbols from various cultures. With examples ranging from Sari and dukus to braids and hijabs, Michelle and Samah emphasise the importance of context, historical awareness, and intent. They offer practical advice on how to support underrepresented communities respectfully—through asking questions, doing research, and ensuring purchases directly benefit those cultures. This episode is a powerful reminder that respect, education, and empathy are key to truly honouring the traditions and struggles of marginalised communities. - URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jWqY8INyoM Welcome to the Underrepresented in Tech podcast, where we talk about issues in underrepresentation and have difficult conversations. Underrepresented in tech is a free database with a goal of helping people find new opportunities in WordPress and tech. Hi Sa. Hi Michelle. And hi everybody who's listening to us. I think everyone is good. I should sing my voice. We sing to each other and I even if I'm having a bad day, as soon as I do my little hi, it makes me feel good and I start to smile and so it's a good thing for sure. Now, I know some people listen to the podcast and aren't watching the podcast. But today, okay, first of all, I have a hat on because it's a very bad hair day. But I'm also wearing a scarf and it's I'm going to say it. You're going to correct me if I'm wrong, but it's a kafaya. Kafia. Kufia. Good for you. Okay. Kafia. Yeah. And if you don't know what a kafia is, why don't you explain it because I know there's cultural significance in the pattern and everything else. Yeah. Kofuia, it's a Palestinian scarf. It's a present uh olive tree and a lot of simples in it. I'm not going to go in small a lot of details in it but it's uh something you can wear and you can know like if you're coming from Middle East supporting Palestinian, Palestinian whatever and it is everyone can wear it. If even you're Palestinian or from Middle East, Arabs, uh African, Asian, all of wherever you are around the world, everyone can wear it without any uh restrictions. Right. And before I I bought one to be supportive and I bought it from um a Palestinian uh online store so that I was not just paying somebody in the United States to make them, you know, kind of thing. I wanted to make sure that the money was going someplace that would actually support the community. Um but before I ever thought to wear it, I asked you, is it okay for me to wear this as a white woman in the United States? And you said absolutely. We love the support. Showing your support is something that's very important. Which brought me to other questions which are what is cultural appropriation? What is cultural support or support of community? And what is just okay? It doesn't matter. Right? So that we wear things that are um from different parts of the world. Like I'm wearing a black hat today. If I tipped it to one side, it could almost be a beret. I do have several berets in my um you know, in my hat collection. It is not a cultural appropriation for me to wear a beret. It's just not. It's a French hat, but I can wear a beret. Um, I could wear a cowboy hat, but I'm not from the south United States where cowboy hats were part of um necessity from sun and heat and all of those things, but I could wear a cowboy hat, and that is not cultural appropriation either. However, if I wanted to wear my hair in cornrows or bontto knots or wear an afro, that would be considered culture cultural appropriation of black hair. And so I can wear certain braids and it's not cultural appropriation, but to um to wear my hair in cornrows specifically, excuse me. And you might remember probably 10 years ago now, Adele the singer wore bantu bantto knots in her hair when she was in Jamaica and she was blasted all over the internet for cultural appropriation as a white woman. And so I wanted to talk to you today about different ideas. Um what is cultural appropriation? What is not? What is seen as just beautiful dress that's and and and garments and um accessories that you can wear around the world with no fear of appropriation? And what things are actually sacred to communities and should only be worn or used by those communities. And so I thought that would be with my kafia today would be something that would be kind of cool to to talk about. So, it is 80. It's going to get up to like 75 80 degrees here today. So, this is probably only through the morning and as it gets a little warmer later, I will probably have to take it off, but I love it and I was excited to wear it with you today. So, what are what are some of your thoughts? And I will drink my coffee and stop talking for a minute. Uh my thought is like of course the cult culture of cooperation it's like people need a little bit to understanding of course like when um wearing a kofia or wearing a headscarf as a as a Muslim woman or as a Jewish woman because also Jewish women's also wear the scarf the way to put it of course I believe it's it is more about understanding the history the culture behind it and and respecting of course uh when we we're talking about uh the African or the black history of uh slavery or of the racism they are suffering and you need to understand and respect it and if it's also um I don't know if every time we're involving and we're more getting to know understanding each other culture appreciated it in the right way more and more and as you said like sometimes it's okay to ask those question especially someone from from the the culture like um as an example I love the African scarf duku like the way they they put it and I know it is African women take a lot of pride if especially if you're in synagogue Nigeria um Kenya and I love the way they put it the colorful even in Congo I found it very beautiful it is uh I I know they don't mind I asked couple of women that it's mind that there's a way to put it I found it very beautiful but it's always nice to ask if I did wear it and of course you need to ask behind it why you do it like this or uh of course why you're wearing it in that way to get understand for for it and also at the same time um even about food because people thinking it's only about the looks but even like eating food or selling food for another culture without give them the credit or understanding why uh that food was made or how it's made or um then that's something like it's not acceptable. I am I don't know especially it's come to food privately. No, it's it's understanding the culture and why like um you Palestina and this is the sign of our struggle fight for the freedom. also in the old time people used to wear it the olives sign on it there's a lot of symbols in it and uh to support Palestinian you to wear it it is okay but also sometimes um I don't think it will be nice if you wear it as a tank top you know I will find it I will find the scarf like ah it's a little bit weird of course there is a designer making dresses and stuff but the scarf itself it's like should be you know giving more this like fighting for freedom, revolution, the struggle. It's not be tank top. I don't like a tank top. So yeah, and also I don't know just asking and understanding the culture because most of people doing it because they think they're looking cool and not because they understand the culture behind it, right? There's a big difference between appropriate and appropriation. For sure. Uh I was thinking about the duku like you were saying. They think it's and you've been to Africa. Your husband has worked in there and you've been to visit him um in the different African countries. I should say I know Africa is not a country. I do know this. It's a continent. But but there are so many countries in Africa and they all have their own deep rooted history and the duku in one country may be something different in another country and how they wear it and how they use it and the dashiki and and the patterns and the fabrics and all of that. Um, all of that to say that yes, we our research says that you're as as any woman is allowed to wear any person is allowed to wear dooku and it is not appropriation. However, if let's say Vogue or L or one of those fashion magazines, excuse me, I got a frog in my throat. Were to put six white women Yeah. in a desert photo, right? Like it looks like a desert or whatever. and they're wearing dashiki and duku, but they're only white women in the picture. That would be wrong because then you are removing any history and tie to the ethnicity of that those peoples by just appropriating it for your photo shoot. So, can you sama or meu? Yes, we can. Could I use it inappropriately? It would be inappropriate to do that what what I was just talking about. So there's nuance to everything as well. I love I think it is so beautiful the sars in India and I think it's just like I I wish I still had it. My father when when I was 12 or 13 went to India and he brought me back a sar sorry s sorry s sorry s sorry s sorry s sorry s sorry s sorry s sorry s sorry s sorryari cloth and that I mean I'm 56 now I have no idea where that ended up in the different moves of our family and things like that. It certainly didn't go to college with me and then when I moved out on my own it was nowhere to be found. It was so beautiful and I wish I still had it. Um, and so maybe next year in Mumbai I will buy a sari because my research shows that it is not inappropriate for a white woman to wear a sari in certain cultural situations. So were I to go to an Indian wedding, absolutely I could wear the sari. I mean I could wear it around daytoday too but that would just be a little odd because um very few of my Indian friends outside of India ever wear a sari except in um you know very for special occasions but it's not inappropriate for me to do that um it's not inappropriate for me to wear braids but it is inappropriate for me to wear box braids or bantto knots and those kinds of things and so if you are ever in doubt it's very easy to Google or chat GPT uh those kinds of things. I wondered about wearing hijab. So I'm so very long ago, probably 15 years ago, there was a lot of um racist things happening in the United States and beyond to women who were wearing hijab. And I reached out to some of my Muslim friends that were in my doctoral program with me then and I said,"I want to show my solidarity with you. Would it be appropriate for me to wear hijab to show my solidarity?" And my friend Miriam said to me, "It's not inappropriate, but we don't want you to do it because we don't want you to be shot or harassed or, you know, that by showing my solidarity, they didn't want me to fall under the same racism that they were experiencing. So, they weren't banning me from doing it, but they were watching out for my my benefit and my health." And my research today shows that anybody can wear hijab. It's not inappropriate to do that. Um, but listen to your friends also. So like I could wear hijab, but my friends say I don't want you to deal with the same kinds of problems that we deal with. So only do that if you truly feel led to, not because you just want to to show your solidarity to us. So there's so many different nuances and different ways that we can look at appropriation. you know, I can't remember if I said it on the show or if we said it beforehand, but I think it was beforehand where um the box braids that people uh tend to wear, first of all, it's a beautiful hairstyle. My daughter wears them often. She is a black woman and so she it's not culturally inappropriate for her to wear braids. Um it was main mainstreamed in the 1970s in a movie called 10. um a white actress named Bod Derek had the um box braids with the beads and everything on the end in a white bathing suit running down the beach and the braids are swinging and everything and that's like women looked at that and said, "Oh, that's pretty. I want to get my hair done like that, too." It is inappropriate for a white woman to wear box braids, especially um especially in the United States. I can as I've often said I can only speak from my own personal experience and here but my research also says that around the world we need to be approp you know we need to act appropriately and not appropriate things. Um because of how the tradition has arisen and what box braids mean to the black community up through slavery up through through all the different African nations as well. um natural hairstyles like afro, box braids, uh cornrows, all of that is only appropriate for black women to wear. And so for me to do that is inappropriate. However, I did see lots of activity on TikTok over the last year where people were saying, "Well, I'm a white woman and I wear box braids because Vikings wore box braids and I can trace my history back to the to the Vikings." But if you do your true research, Vikings wearing box braids is very Hollywood and it's not very historical. And so before you claim anything in your history as giving you a, you know, giving you the appropriate version of wearing something that may not actually be, do your research. Google is free. Vikings wear braids. Absolutely. Scandinavians, braids are a thing. Absolutely. Box braids, cornrows, no braids, yes. So, my grandmother was Swedish. I loved wearing braids as a kid, and I would just wrap them one one time over the top of my head. I I can I'll give you the photo, Sama. You can put it in the show notes if people want to see little Michelle with the braids on her head. Um, crooked smile, crooked glasses, and I was wearing my favorite sweater, but it it has like this this um uh ruffle at the top and a string. It looks like somebody put me in a bag and tied it shut around my neck. I will give you the photo. Um I was cute. Darn it. But this photo is maybe not my best. But I but but that wearing of braids given my Swedish background, my history through my grandmother, absolutely appropriate. And even if you're not Swedish, that braid is appropriate. Um you know, you can do fishtail braids, you can do, you know, just threest strand braids. You can do um French braids. All of that is appropriate. It's when you veer into the box, braids, cornrows, etc. that it becomes inappropriate for a white woman to do that. Yeah, I I agree with you. And also sometimes I I it also makes me laugh those videos. Like I once I did the DNA test, I am like almost 18% North African and 1.7 Nigerian. I I don't have the honor to call myself African. I wish then I will be super cool but but uh the thing is like I I found it sometimes the people they don't want to make the effort they don't want to um Google it also happen um about uh there's traditional or holiday in the Netherlands I don't like it people hear me from the Netherlands called Santa Claus they paint your face black it's traditional and because you're coming out from the chimney but also and then they said like oh but the kids This is this is like going a little bit sometimes um if you look culture. Yeah. If you look a little bit in the culture and when and why uh the white people was painting themselves black to present black people on the theater on the movie theater because they were not this is a lot of uh history behind it. A lot of suffering a lot of also people need to fight for uh their place and still people like find it. I know it's funny we used to do it. It's no but I think um maybe I'm going now to the other side to the extreme but also understanding the history also give you like yeah I I want to do it like this or I want to do it like that and I understand as you say the French uh braids or the French hat um there's no of course there's history behind it who invented it and why they put it la but also at the same time sadly other cultures the the history was not very beautiful and sunny and flowery and and positive and other people there the simple of wearing the scarf it was meaning something the simple of braiding your hair it was meaning something to eat the specific food in that specific day it tell a story of a whole nation and sometimes just understanding it before copying it it it can it can means a lot for the people who really went to a lot to to make sure it uh it could happen. At at the base of it, it's about the power dynamic. So if the culture that you are wanting to take hairstyles or clothing from is from a repressed culture and you are from the culture that had the the power and the other culture was powerless or less powerful as in American slavery, then it is absolutely appropriation and and the blackface minstrels were actually going further. and making fun of. So the blackface culture that came from the south in the United States, you know, at the turn of the century and and earlier than that, like the time of the Civil War and then into the probably 30s and 40s of the United States, um was all about using that black face not to raise up a culture, but to keep it repressed and keep it down. I'm sorry I cut you I cut you off. No, no, no, no, no. Thanks. Uh no, you can all the time cut me off anytime. And also at the same time copying someone with the parades and everything we as I don't want to say we I'm not white. Uh um the discrimination against the people going through as you said wearing a veil um sometimes wearing a veil immediately put uh specific discrimination against you having your your uh going African uh people different style the way they dressing immediately discrimination racism against them um when you're copying that and of course nobody will do the same uh react act they do it with other people uh because also the ads in TV in media and everywhere all the time before the last five seven years all the time the beautiful hair is the silky blondy hair it's the hair it was never the curly hair or the textured hair the African it was never even products like it was you don't see them in normal in TV and media like oh this is a perfect hair uh uh cream for your curls or this is really good shampoo for your scalp or whatever, it was always the beautiful blonde silky hair. And ignoring the discrimination uh uh uh black people get for their hairstyle or for the way they dress or even uh people Muslim people or even Indian the way from the whatever if you don't really understand the history like and ignoring it and just like oh because yeah I want to do it because it's cool. I think it's it's a little bit sad to do it. And he said, "Use Google, ask ask people, ask Google, ask." Yes. And I will go a little bit further and say, even when it's appropriate, make sure that where you're buying articles of clothing and hair salves and and all of those things, right? So, like I said, when I bought the scarf, I made sure I wasn't just paying some factory in Minnesota, you know, to make the scarf that that the money was actually going through to somebody. So, let's So, Amazon is a marketplace now. It isn't just everything from Amazon. And so the marketplace that I bought this through, I verified was a Palestinian organization because I wanted to make sure that if I bought money to wear something in support of that culture, that the money was going to that culture as well. I probably could have bought it outside of Amazon and made sure that it was more than that and next time I will because I only just thought of that. But I was like, Amazon's my go-to, which is terrible, I know, but there we are. But at least I did my research, made sure that that that the money that was being spent was going to the right culture so and the right community. So all that to say, show your support, right? I'm sorry, what you say? Yeah, I want to say the key is for uh appreciation is respect um permission and get context and um honor the culture and um understand it and uh uh celebrate it also because uh behind this history sometimes a lot of pain, a lot of suffering but people now they want to celebrate who they became, the culture, the whole nation, the whole race uh from it. So, yeah. Yeah, I was So, one of the articles that I read, I'll just bring this up really quickly, too, is um in in the United States here and especially in the southern states, um which tend to be a a little more racist than some of the northern there's there's a divide between liberal and conservative. And not that it doesn't permeate, but yeah, blue states tend to be a little more understanding, which is I live in New York, so we don't tell children how they have to wear their hair or how they can't wear their hair. But we've had lawsuits in the United States, um, specifically in Texas, where a young gentleman was being told he had to cut off his dreadlocks, which I think we just call locks now, but the article did refer to them as dreadlocks, but had to cut off his locks or he would be expelled from school because it was an inappropriate hairstyle for school. Well, who's to say what's inappropriate when that's his culture? He was a black man and he should be allowed, well, boy, but you know what I'm saying. He's black culture. he he was appropriately wearing locks. And so for the school district to tell him he couldn't or for a school district to tell um a girl that she can't wear her natural hair, she has to braid or she has to cut it short because you know what we perceive as an afro natural woman's black hair is inappropriate for school is inappropriate to tell them that. And so there have been lawsuits. There have been lawsuits in workplaces when a workplace tells a woman that she can't wear her natural hair, that she has to tame it or, you know, other terms like that. And so I want to see things change. I want to see even though it was always inappropriate, it will always be inappropriate for me to wear those styles, I want to see those styles accepted for the cultures that have the right to wear them because that's the opposite effect, right? So not I if I can't wear it, nobody can wear it. That's what I'm hearing in some of these things. No, absolutely not. And so I just think we need to keep all of it in mind and allow cultures to continue with their own cultural history and to bring that forward into their future generations and yet let it still be inappropriate for me to do it for them or on their behalf or steal that from their culture. Yeah, I think at at the end it's as just understanding and celebrating and ask permission and just and go for it and also um understanding it's more important just not like copy paste and without getting the whole story behind it. It's Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you for letting me have this this conversation today. I thought it was just a good one for you and I to have. I did have a dream before I was falling asleep the other day. I did have like thoughts of like a really good idea for our next um our next topic and I said I should wake up and I should write it down on my phone so I don't forget or text you and then I was like nah I'll remember it in the morning but I didn't remember it in the morning and so I'll have to see if I can remember that one later voice message that's a good idea that's a good idea I was like it was dark I was in my room I was starting to fall asleep but like nah remember it never trust that never tr I remembered that I had an idea but not what the idea one was. So maybe that'll come back and when I will bring you another Kofilia when I see you in world country. Oh, I would love that. Getting closer. So yeah, I know. I'll see you in what, two weeks, I think. Three weeks. Yeah, three weeks. I will see you there. So very good. Well, thank you everybody for listening in. We won't have an episode the week of Word Camp Europe because we're both going to be there having but I mean we'll have coffee together, but you won't be with us. We'll have a lot of conversation, a lot of coffee, but not a podcast. Not a podcast, right? And you better believe that as soon as I see you, I will hug you with hello. If you're going to be at Word Camp, please stop by and see us. Um, well, I mean, stop by. I don't know where we'll be. I'll be at the You will see me. You will see me running around and everyone will see you going around like you I know. I'll be on my scooter. You can find me that way. We'll see you there. We will have an episode the next two weeks. If you have ideas of what we should talk about, please let us know. Until then, bye. Saba and bye everybody else. Bye. If you're interested in using our database, joining us as a guest for an episode, or just want to say hi, go to underrepresentedintech.com. See you next week., Understanding Cultural Appropriation vs. Appreciation, Underrepresented In Tech, 01jvcn9jsxs9rwzn7ez3rs6s33.