What Happens When Faith Suppresses Critical Thinking?  🔗 **Source:** [What Happens When Faith Suppresses Critical Thinking?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj-3x7je30w) > [!note]+ Document Notes > --- > title: "What Happens When Faith Suppresses Critical Thinking?" > author: John Collins & guest (Leaving the Message) > source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj-3x7je30w > runtime: 10:12 > type: literature > tags: [high-control-groups, critical-thinking, deconstruction, epistemic-harm, religious-trauma, science-and-religion] > --- > > [!info] Deep read — processed 2026-08-30 > > Leaving the Message, 10:12, 1,643-word transcript from auto-captions. Two speakers: the > > host (John Collins, who left the Branham "message" and runs recovery support groups) and a > > guest with a pastoral background. Neither is named in the captured audio; roles inferred > > from what each says about himself. > > **Vault-link caveat:** `~/Documents` is permission-locked; links are ones verified earlier. > ## 📝 Summary > A short, exploratory conversation with one genuinely valuable observation in it. The framing claim is that **safety is built from predictability**, so challenging inherited belief doesn't merely disagree with someone — it removes the ground they're standing on: > > *"What stimulates guys like us actually creates fear in others… suddenly now, oh my god, I've been living my whole life with this understanding. I feel safe and secure in what I know, and now you're suddenly telling me what I know I don't know."* > The substantive material is Collins' account of what suppressed critical thinking does over time, drawn from running support groups for people leaving high-control religion. His claim, delivered with visible care: people prevented from questioning arrive on the other side processing the world roughly as an adolescent would, overshoot into experimentation, and then settle once they've asked the questions they were never allowed. > The second half is a loose historical riff about the Reformation and the scientific revolution that is explicitly labeled thinking-out-loud and should be treated that way. > ## 📖 Main Content > ### "If you're thinking, that's the devil" > Collins states the doctrine he was raised with directly: critical thought was attributed to demonic influence. *"I was told that it was evil… if you have critical thinking that's the devil talking to you."* And the residue is durable — *"in the back of your mind you've got this at all times. I still do, because that was literally brainwashed into my head."* > That's the mechanism worth isolating. **The prohibition doesn't argue against a conclusion; it attaches a threat to the cognitive act itself.** You cannot reason your way past a rule that fires before reasoning starts, which is why he reports it persisting years after he rejected the theology. > His counter-example is internal to the tradition: the Bereans, who *"critically examined"* and were commended for it. He adds an honest caveat — *"I wish the Bible had said what it was that they found"* — declining to claim more than the text supports. > ### The two moments that changed his mind > **Children.** *"When you have children and you're teaching them anything… they're going to ask a lot of questions because that's how they learn."* Some are hard to answer. *"That's their brain's way of understanding the world around them. And then we get stuck in this religion that tries to suppress that."* > The force of this is that it's a claim about *cognitive development*, not about doctrine. If question-asking is how a brain builds a model of the world, then a rule against questioning isn't restricting a topic — it is interfering with the process itself. He doesn't overstate: *"I can't even imagine the damage."* > **Support groups.** This is the observation the episode exists for, and he flags his own difficulty in saying it: > > *"I'm going to try to say this in the most non-offensive way for people who have gone through this. And those who have made it through to the other side will understand, but those who are in it right now, they won't."* > The claim: *"People have been so manipulated to suppress critical thinking that in some ways they have the mental growth of a child… They've only progressed so far because they've not been allowed to critically think."* In the groups, he sees people processing from something like a mid-teens vantage — *"some of the people just go wild and they're trying new things that the cult condemned and they're going way too far in the extreme with it. And then they kind of mellow out, after they have asked all the questions and experimented all of the experiments."* > **The coiled-spring image is the useful part:** each person in the pew is a compressed spring, and when critical thought finally enters, they *"bounce around like a spring."* The post-exit overshoot is not a character failure or evidence the group was right about the outside world — **it is the predictable release of suppression**, and it resolves once the backlog of questions is worked through. > That reframing is genuinely useful to anyone supporting someone leaving a high-demand group, and it is offered with the humility the material requires: *"it's sad to watch. It really hurts me to think what they've done to the minds of the people."* > ### The historical riff, which is the weak half > The guest proposes a structural opposition: *"Institutional religion by nature is about preserving the past… Science, the very nature of it, is about exploring the future."* Sunday morning returns to a story thousands of years old; science looks at tomorrow. > Then a causal sketch about the 1500s: the Reformation challenged conventional wisdom, and *"the minute that that happens,"* Galileo, Copernicus, and others challenge it too — several of them churchmen. His characterization of their motive is the best line in the section: > > *"What's driving science is this world that we live in was created by a creator. Who is this guy? And how does this world really work that he put us in? They're not trying to be anti-Christian or anti-God. They're actually trying to discover God."* > That corrective is worth keeping — the early modern natural philosophers were overwhelmingly religious and understood their work as theological. > **The causal claim around it does not hold up**, and the speaker half-concedes as much (*"I'm just thinking out loud here"*). Copernicus published in 1543 and had developed his model well before Luther's 95 theses had any scientific effect; the third name given, rendered "Mendelsohn," fits nobody in the period — Mendel is three centuries later. The Reformation-caused-science thesis is a live and contested historiographical debate, not a settled sequence. **Treat this section as an intuition, not a finding.** > ## 🗒️ Notes > - The "two cosmonauts" self-description — having left Earth and looking back at everything — is how the hosts frame their own posture, and it doubles as a warning to listeners about what the journey costs. > - Collins explicitly grants that the current moment is unusually receptive: *"there's a lot of people right now, especially where the church world is, that are kind of taking a step back and going, what do I think I really know?"* — and says that openness is the only reason he feels safe having these conversations publicly. > - He distinguishes people who find this exciting *because* they were disillusioned from people for whom it is purely threatening. Same content, opposite reception, depending on whether the person has already had a rupture. > - Roughly ten minutes, conversational, no citations, no guest introduction in the captured audio. > - Companion in this batch: the Firefly Report episode (ep 270) from the same show — same host, and the structural-harm argument here is what the institutional-concealment material looks like from the survivor's side. > ## 📚 References > - Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj-3x7je30w (10:12) > - Acts 17:10–12 (the Bereans) — referenced, not cited by chapter and verse > - Figures named: Luther, Galileo, Copernicus, and a third rendered "Mendelsohn" (unidentifiable as given) > - Companion: *Mike Bickle Investigation: The Firefly Report* (Leaving the Message ep 270) > ## 🗣️ Paraphrase > People feel safe when the world is predictable, so telling someone their beliefs are wrong doesn't feel like disagreement to them — it feels li What Happens When Faith Suppresses Critical Thinking? — Leaving the Message (10:12) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj-3x7je30w [00:00:00] I think everybody's aware of this, but it's just good to lay it out again. What stimulates guys like us actually creates fear in others. And the reason for that is is that so much of our existence is based on being secure. Right? We want to feel safe. We want to feel secure. And so safe and secure come through predictability, consistency, right? In other words, I you know what I mean? We we love routine, you know, we we we we want to feel safe. So, that's kind of a default setting that all of us humans have. So, when you come along and you start challenging conventional wisdom where people feel safe, right? We've always thought this way. This is the way it's always been, right? What what people don't realize is you [00:00:59] actually create fear cuz suddenly now, oh my god, I've been living my whole life with this understanding. I feel safe and secure in what I know, and now you're suddenly telling me what I I know I don't know. You know what I mean? It unnerves people. So, the reason I bring that up is a a lot of times when guys like you and I start down this road of just kind of peeking behind the curtain and pulling up things and going, you know, what is this? Like really, right? That That for some people creates fear. Right? They don't Like what's what we're salivating over, they're cowering going, "No." Right? And so I will always want to be respectful to people and just let them know, if you're going to listen to [00:01:44] us, if you're going to go on this journey with us, we're we're kind of like two cosmonauts, right? We're just kind [laughter] of You know what I mean? We we left Earth and we're out here and we're just looking at everything and and and and and here's what again for us it's exciting and for a lot of other people it's exciting right because they've been disillusioned they've gone through things where they felt safe and suddenly they realized that their whole life was based on a lie or you know a segment of their life was right and so it's like so there's a lot of people right now especially where the church world is that are kind of taking a step back and going what do I think I really know? [00:02:28] >> [laughter] >> And what I think I know is it really true right? So there's a kind of an openness right now which is the only reason why I feel a little bit more safe and having some of these discussions right now because I think people are searching. Yeah you know kind of you know I mean they've come out of some things and they're sort of in the wilderness of you know what is this right? >> Yeah. Well the interesting part for me I I put a lot of thought into critical thought because I was told that it was evil you know if you have critical thinking that's the devil talking to you and so in the back of your mind you've got this at all times I still do because that was [00:03:09] literally brainwashed into my head if you're thinking that's the devil brother but [snorts] that's that's not the way it works the believers in Berea they critically examined and I wish the Bible had said what it was that they found but whatever it was they found they became convinced that that this was that Christianity was true and so they went with it but it happened because they critically thought and one of the things that I find really fascinating it really struck me how wrong it was after I had children because when you have children and you're teaching them anything whether it's the Bible or whether it's you know I'm changing the oil in my car they're going to ask a lot of questions because that's how they learn. They [00:03:54] learn by asking questions. And some of the questions they're asking are sometimes quite difficult to answer. >> Right. >> In all aspects, you know, religion and all. But [clears throat] that's their brain's way of understanding the world around them. And then we get stuck in this religion that tries to suppress that. And they start at a very young age and I can't even imagine the damage it has done because that is literally how your brain processes the world around it. And it hit me a second time. So it hit me first after having children. I began to understand, "No, this is wrong. You can't do this to people's minds." But [clears throat] then after I started working with the support groups of people who are escaping a cult, [00:04:39] >> Mhm. >> it got really weird and I'm going to try to say this in the most non-offensive way for people who have gone through this. And those who have made it through the to the other side will understand, but those who are in it right now, they won't. People have been so manipulated to suppress critical thinking that in some ways they have the mental growth of a child. Sometimes in a human adult body. They've only progressed so far because they've not been allowed to critically think. And so when they get into the support groups, now they're processing everything from the perspective of somebody who's like in their mid teens and I've watched it time and time again. Some of the people just go wild and they're trying [00:05:26] new things that the cult condemned and they're going way too far in the extreme with it. And then they kind of mellow out and after they have asked all the questions and experimented all of the experiments, they kind of mellow out. >> [clears throat] >> But the harm that is done from the cults because of suppressing critical thinking, it's like coiling a spring a bunch of springs cuz each person in the pew is one and then suddenly they're all uncoiled whenever any critical thought enters their mind. They bounce bounce around like a spring and it's it's sad to watch. It really hurts me to think what they've done to the minds of the people. >> Again, you know, we're we're talking out loud so this so people understand here [00:06:09] you know, we're we're having dialogue and we're throwing things out and we're having this discussion and and some of these things just pop into my head. But here's something that um I've observed. Religion institutional religion by nature is about preserving the past. >> Yes. >> Right? Whether that's Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, right? In other words, we have these people in our past right? Who you know, as we talked about previously, some of the they don't even know that there's a microbiological world of viruses and bacterias and DNA and you know, chemical and that like they don't know any of this, right? So, we're we're we're we're and they have a belief system and a way of viewing the world and institutional religion is about preserving that past, right? [00:07:10] Science the very nature of it, right? Is about exploring the future. >> So just in the very nature of these two communities, you already are at odds with each other cuz one's pulling you pa right? Every Sunday morning we go in and we open up the Bible and we refer back to a story that happened thousands of years ago. Science is always looking at what's happening tomorrow, right? Looking forward. So where in history this becomes the I don't know. I mean and again, I'm just thinking out loud here, but it seems to me that the 15 right around the 1500s you have a very interesting dynamic in play in the world cuz you have the Reformation, right? So, you have a group of religious leaders who [00:08:05] are doing the unthinkable and challenging the history, right? The conventional wisdom where everybody feels safe and secure, right? This is the norm. This is our subculture worldview, our ideology, our theology, all of this and they come along and they challenge that, right? Well, what happens when they do that? The minute that that happens, a whole group of other guys, i.e. Galileo, Copernicus, Mendelsohn, right? All of these guys who a lot Some of them are priests, right? Which is crazy, right? Some of you know, some of these guys are leaders in the church suddenly challenge all this conventional wisdom, right? And what ends up happening, right? So, not only are you having a theological conflict between Luther and the you know, in the Catholic Church, you're having a scientific [00:09:02] you know, collision with all of these men who are basically doing one thing. You know what they're after? >> Conformity. >> God. >> Right? In other words, what's driving science is this world that we live in was created by a creator. Who is this guy? And how does this world really work that he put us in, right? They're They're not trying to be anti-Christian or anti-God. They're actually trying to discover God. That's their quest. >> Right? But what happens is is they create fear, right? Because they're challenging the institutional thinking, and then you have this collision, and of course it gets violent, right? People get crucified, people get burned at the stake, you know, all these horrible things happen as you see these two, you know, kind of perspectives colliding [00:09:59] between the past and the future. >> [music], What Happens When Faith Suppresses Critical Thinking?, John Collins & guest (Leaving the Message), 01m19p1vezy82grs6emegrd2h9.