Who Deserves to Eat?  ## Metadata - Author: [[YouTube]] - Full Title: Who Deserves to Eat? - Category: #articles - Document Note: --- tags: [biblical-studies, pauline-epistles, social-justice, ancient-history] author: Data Over Dogma source: YouTube reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsDBGYZMQqQ date created: 2024-12-19 15:30 --- # 🏷️ Title: Who Deserves to Eat? ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Research modern SNAP benefit debates and Christian responses — theological misuse of 2 Thessalonians 3:10 #social-justice - [H2] Investigate archaeological evidence for Hyksos period — contextualizing biblical narratives #ancient-history - [H3] Analyze church charity experiment data — examining practical Christian charity #community ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [2 Thessalonians Chapter 3](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%203&version=NRSV) - [Hyksos Historical Period](https://www.worldhistory.org/Hyksos/) ## 📝 Summary - Biblical scholars Dan McClellan and Dan Beecher examine misuse of 2 Thessalonians 3:10 to justify denying food assistance to the poor - The passage "anyone unwilling to work should not eat" is contextually about church leadership or eschatological laziness, not welfare policy - Discussion of the Hyksos (foreign rulers of Egypt 1650-1550 BCE) and why they don't provide evidence for the biblical Exodus narrative - Both topics highlight how religious texts get misappropriated to support contemporary political positions - Bottom line: Context matters when interpreting ancient texts for modern application ## 📖 Main Content The hosts examine two primary topics: the misuse of 2 Thessalonians 3:10 in contemporary welfare debates and the historical Hyksos period in ancient Egypt. Regarding the biblical passage, scholars generally agree it addresses either lazy church officials who expected free meals without working, or believers who quit their jobs expecting the imminent Second Coming. Neither interpretation supports denying government assistance to the poor. The Hyksos were Semitic rulers who governed Lower Egypt during the Second Intermediate Period, but timeline and geographical issues prevent them from being evidence for biblical narratives about Joseph or Hebrew enslavement in Egypt. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsDBGYZMQqQ?t=0) — [H1] Introduction and 2 Thessalonians Setup - Key idea: Examining how 2 Thessalonians 3:10 gets weaponized against the poor - Evidence: "Anyone unwilling to work should not eat" frequently quoted to oppose SNAP benefits #### ⏱️ [00:09:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsDBGYZMQqQ?t=585) — [H2] Authorship of 2 Thessalonians - Key idea: This is likely pseudepigraphic, not actually written by Paul - Evidence: "Most critical scholars would say that this was likely written by somebody pretending to be Paul after Paul's death" #### ⏱️ [00:12:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsDBGYZMQqQ?t=750) — [H2] Reading the Passage in Context - Key idea: The full passage about Paul working and setting an example - Evidence: "We were not irresponsible when we were with you, and we did not eat anyone's bread without paying for it" #### ⏱️ [00:16:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsDBGYZMQqQ?t=975) — [H1] Two Scholarly Interpretations - Key idea: Minority view addresses lazy church officials; majority view addresses eschatological laziness - Evidence: People either expecting free church meals or quitting work expecting imminent Second Coming #### ⏱️ [00:21:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsDBGYZMQqQ?t=1260) — [H1] Modern Misuse Examples - Key idea: Contemporary Christians using verse to justify cruelty toward poor - Evidence: Eric Hovind, Pastor Joseph Hall, Christopher Arps cited as examples #### ⏱️ [00:25:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsDBGYZMQqQ?t=1545) — [H2] Church Charity Experiment - Key idea: TikTok experiment revealing churches' actual charity practices - Evidence: "Of something like 40 churches that she called, I think nine said yes" #### ⏱️ [00:30:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsDBGYZMQqQ?t=1820) — [H3] Pastor Steven Anderson's Response - Key idea: Extreme example of using religious language to justify cruelty - Evidence: "I would want it to go to the Lord's work or towards helping godly Christians who are in need" #### ⏱️ [00:35:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsDBGYZMQqQ?t=2110) — [H1] Hyksos Introduction - Key idea: Foreign rulers of Egypt during Second Intermediate Period - Evidence: "Greek transliteration of an Egyptian phrase...he kasut...means foreign rulers or foreign lords" #### ⏱️ [00:38:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsDBGYZMQqQ?t=2325) — [H2] Hyksos Historical Period - Key idea: West Asian peoples who ruled Lower Egypt 1650-1550 BCE - Evidence: Archaeological evidence shows gradual settlement, not violent conquest #### ⏱️ [00:42:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsDBGYZMQqQ?t=2550) — [H2] Connection to Biblical Narratives - Key idea: Some try to link Hyksos to Joseph's story but timelines don't work - Evidence: Dating problems whether Exodus placed in 1400s or 1200s BCE #### ⏱️ [00:46:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsDBGYZMQqQ?t=2775) — [H3] Population Growth Problems - Key idea: Impossible demographics for Hebrew population growth in Egypt - Evidence: "Two to five million participating in the Exodus" from small family group in 200 years #### ⏱️ [00:48:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsDBGYZMQqQ?t=2930) — [H3] Joseph's Canal Debunked - Key idea: Modern naming of ancient canal doesn't prove biblical connection - Evidence: Canal name only few hundred years old, not ancient ## 📚 References - [NRSV Bible Translation](https://www.biblegateway.com/versions/New-Revised-Standard-Version-NRSV-Bible/) - [Hyksos Period Resources](https://www.worldhistory.org/Hyksos/) - [Pauline Epistle Scholarship](https://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780195393361/obo-9780195393361-0073.xml) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - 2 Thessalonians 3:10 is being misused by Christians to justify opposing government food assistance programs, but scholarly consensus shows it addressed either lazy church officials or people who quit working expecting Jesus' immediate return - The Hyksos were real Semitic rulers who governed part of Egypt during a period of political instability, but they cannot serve as historical evidence for the biblical stories about Joseph or Hebrew enslavement - Modern attempts to find archaeological support for biblical narratives often involve forced connections that ignore chronological and contextual problems ## 📰 Newsletter **Biblical Context Matters: When Ancient Texts Meet Modern Politics** Fellow seekers of truth! This week's deep dive reminds us why understanding historical context is crucial when interpreting ancient texts. Whether it's using 2 Thessalonians to justify cutting food stamps or claiming the Hyksos prove the Exodus happened, we see how religious texts get weaponized for contemporary political agendas. The scholars' analysis of "anyone unwilling to work should not eat" shows how removing verses from context can completely distort their meaning. Meanwhile, the Hyksos discussion demonstrates the importance of matching archaeological evidence with proper chronological frameworks. Key takeaway: Always ask about context, authorship, and original audience before applying ancient texts to modern situations. Resources: [Bible Study Tools](https://www.biblestudytools.com/), [World History Encyclopedia](https://www.worldhistory.org/), [Oxford Biblical Studies](https://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer ad - Document Tags: [[ancient]] [[community]] [[h1]] [[social]] [[xref]] - Summary: Who Deserves to Eat? - URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsDBGYZMQqQ You know, Dan, I don't know about you, but I have always uh had real trouble looking at my finances. >> Oh, don't get me started. >> It's just something I don't like to do. It's stressful. It scares me. I don't know. I I feel like a lot of us have a sort of irrational relationship with finances, especially if you've been through some rough times. But if you have some money and you're now trying, you know, you're being responsible, you got your 401k in line, you got some investments, those of us who are still in bad habit land could use a little bit of help. And that's where Monarch comes in. 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Bring that main course energy to your side dish. Celebrate extra with Vita these holidays. Does the context support that interpretation? Uh, I'm going to say along with the majority of scholars, of course not. You jerk. Hey everybody, I'm Dan Mlelen. >> And I'm Dan Beecher. >> And you're listening to the Data Overdogma podcast where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion and we combat the spread of misinformation about the same. How are things today, Dan? >> As good as can be expected. Uh I think is is the answer to that. >> All things considered. Yeah. Yeah. with >> weighing one thing against another. We're we're we're coasting on it. We're going just fine >> in in this economy with a man in the White House. >> What else can you expect? >> Well, yeah. What What can one do? Uh we're we're doing okay. Today, we're going to be talking about some interesting stuff. Uh I I I'm actually fascinated by a few of the things we're going to be talking about. First, we're going to do a chapter and verse. We're going to hit some second Thessalonians. loving Thessalonians. >> Yeah. Yeah. One one, you know, I like to write an epistle to a Thessalonian if I can every now and then. Uh this is chapter three and and the way that it is used to be a jerk. Uh yes, very jerky. >> It is it is this is a one of the jerk passages. And then we're going to jump to >> uh Hixos. >> The Hixos. Yes. And I have never heard of hixoses. The the hixos the very your various hixies. >> We're still trying to figure out the plural there, I guess. >> Yeah, I I'm I'm I am I looked at it, but uh it I'm excited to hear about it and uh and and whether or not it actually helps us understand the Exodus, maybe Joseph. There's so many things. This is >> Arya or No, not that Joseph. That's That's much later. >> Which No. >> Yeah. Joseph finds >> uh just pick a Joseph. Pick a Joseph. Joseph and uh Joseph. >> Yeah. You can't miss with a Joseph. Well, >> right. >> That one we'll we'll leave that one to lie and we'll go on with our first thing chapter and verse. And as we said, this chapter and verse is 2 Thessalonians chapter 3. Uh we're going to we're going to do sort of a whole a whole paragraph basically. >> Yeah. A sense unit if you will. >> A sense unit. Uh six chapter or verses 6 through13. >> There you go. >> Uh >> we're going to really land on one verse though because this is the jerk verse. This is where if you bring this up like >> jerk automatically. If someone says >> two Thessalonians chapter chapter 3 verse 10, you know, you're you're about to get a really uh a a jerk argument. Somebody's somebody's about to be a real piece of work for you. But let's dive in. Uh >> we'll read through the thing and then I want to talk a little bit about context. I want to talk about what scholars think is going on here and before we get into how people are leveraging this. Um, >> since you mentioned cont context, this is an epistle from Paul. Is this one of the actual epistles, Pauline epistles? >> No, this is this is one of the disputed Pauline epistles. So I think um it's more common among your critical scholars than among your apologists and your uh and your theologians to acknowledge this. It's not unheard of among the conservatives and and the theologians, but uh most critical scholars would say that this was likely written by somebody pretending to be Paul after Paul's death. >> This isn't the ones one of the ones that we're pretty sure. No, the so you've got the spurious which is generally just the uh the pastoral epistles. So that would be 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus. Okay. >> Um and these are the the disputed. So, we don't have as much of a consensus as we do with uh the pastoral epistles, but and and these would be uh Ephesians, Colossians, 2 Thessalonians, probably not written by Paul, but we're we're not going to put as big a punctuation mark on it as we are with uh with the pastoral epistles. >> Was it actually sent to Thessalonians? >> Uh like Yeah. Yeah, it was probably was sent to or or at least was circulated among >> uh the the inhabitants of uh of what we now refer to at least when I was there as Thessaloniki. Uh so up in the in the top portion of yeah of the Aian uh nice little port city. Uh last time I was there there was a TGI Fridays there. Don't know if it's still there. Um, but >> that is that is an interesting marker of civilization. I will say that >> I'm not sure that I'm not sure that what it portends. I don't think it's good. >> No, probably not good. No, but um I Yes, I I spent much happier times in uh uh in some of the the ancient sites there in Thessaloniki. >> But um but yeah, it was there was a European League basketball game on the TVs there. So it it it was like going to Canada. You've been to Canada many times and it's like going to Canada and it's like okay there speaking my language I don't recognize the football teams >> right >> on the TV screen. Everybody says a um it's you know it I'm like wow gas is pretty cheap and they're like no that's per liter >> per liter. Yeah. At at one point I wanted I was my mom lives up in Canada and I wanted to translate uh miles per gallon. I wanted to understand what her mileage on her car was. >> Yeah. >> And I was like, >> kilometers per liter. >> Kilometers per liter. I can't what am I like I I I was I was mystified. And then to try and figure out how the gas prices uh >> like Canadian dollars per liter versus American dollars per gallon, I was just like, I give up. I >> math is beyond me. Yeah. I tried to do it in my head driving by a gas station and I was like, I give up. I don't know. There's literally no amount of math that can possibly figure that out. It doesn't exist. >> We have not cracked the code yet. Um anyway, >> so 2 Thessalonians, we got chapter 3 here now and and this is NRSVE as we are won't to uh to default to. >> Yeah. >> Now we command you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to keep away from every brother or sister living irresponsibly and not according to the tradition that they received from us. So, they're getting a little bit of a tongue lashing. Or >> who's the who's the we? It's it's not I, it's we. >> Yeah. Well, it would be Paul and and whoever his companions were ostensibly. >> Various Paul and the Pettes. >> Yes. >> It was the Pips. >> Uh Turtle was there. Uh they probably different members of his entourage. Yes. >> Scooby, Shaggy, Velma. Okay. >> All right. Uh, for you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us. We were not irresponsible when we were with you, and we did not eat anyone's bread without paying for it. But with toil and labor we worked night and day so that we might not burden any of you. This was not because we do not have the right, but in order to give you an example to imitate. For even when we were with you, we gave you this command. Anyone unwilling to work should not eat. >> Boom. >> That That's Put a sticker on that one. That's the one >> we're going to come back to. We'll circle back to that. >> For we hear that some of you are living irresponsibly, mere busy bodies, not doing any work. No such persons we command. Now, such persons we command and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work quietly and to earn their own living. Brothers and sisters, do not be weary in doing what is right. So the the verse that that gets wrenched out of context and quoted in Congress >> uh that gets quoted on social media all over the place for even when we were with you, we gave you this command and usually that's omitted. Anyone unwilling to work should not eat. So the I and and this obviously recently has been salient because of the government shutdown and the threat of uh ending of SNAP benefits for uh the poor and needy. And there were just an obscene number of people, some of them in positions of prominence and power and privilege who were just tickled pink about the poor and the needy being denied SNAP benefits. It it's shocking to me. Uh the cruelty seems to be the point with these people. >> Oh, absolutely. I I think there's there's an idea that poor people don't deserve >> right >> these things like you know >> things like food and shelter. >> Yes. Yes. You you'll you'll hear people be like they shouldn't be allowed to buy sodas >> and things with sugar. It should just be meat and bread and and milk and stuff like buying delicious things. How dare they? >> Yeah, >> they were they were buying food that they would enjoy instead of just sustenance gr >> things where they're going to get a lot of calories efficiently and quickly. >> Yeah. >> It's not going to take a long time to prepare and it makes them feel good. Like I don't know I don't know how many people listening have lived in poverty. I grew up in in I would call it poverty conditions. Um, I have I don't know. There are some people out here out there who will get this, but I know the Bishop's Storehouse well. >> Yeah, >> I know that I love their salsa. They had a granola cereal I really really loved. Um, and sometimes you want a frozen pizza or a soda because it feels like you're treating yourself after a lot of hard work for not a lot of benefit. Uh, and it makes you feel human. And it makes you feel like you are a part of this grander society where all this amazing stuff is available. Uh and if you are forced to subsist on grul and uh you know bread and bad meats and and things like that, it feels like you're being punished that you don't merit the dignity of the right to choose to to uh have something sweet or have something uh particularly savory or fatty or or oily or whatever whatever your your poison is. So yeah, the cruelty is absolutely the point and um >> it is. So yeah, I yeah, the other thing I've been seeing is people who are like uh you know, I saw I saw a a thread just the other day that said jobs that deserve 20 something dollars an hour and it listed, you know, like EMT and blah blah blah and then jobs that don't McDonald's worker. And I was like, "What are you what are you talking about? Yeah, that person works just as hard. That person like the like these pe It's so weird to me that there's this hunger to keep people poor and miserable." >> Yeah. And >> like there Yeah. There were uh you you you also get a lot of the you know, well, a McDonald's job that's intended for high school kids. that's right that's that's intended for part-time high school kids so they can have a little walking around money or something like that. And and and I think this is overwhelmingly coming from people who live in very nice areas where maybe their McDonald's is populated primarily by high school kids. Right. There are plenty of places where it is >> because you can't afford in that neighborhood to live there and on on the subsistence salaries that they choose to pay. >> Yeah. But um you know the the and the whole idea of a minimum wage when you go back to where it when it was established, it was supposed to be a living wage and explicitly not merely a subsistence living >> but a dignified living wage and and it is and you know objectively is has not been that for many many years >> for decades. >> Yeah. So >> so 40 years something like that. >> Yeah. And and so just the fact that there were a lot of people and particularly people in in ecclesiastical positions >> Yeah. >> who were just like licking their chops at the opportunity to see people go without um >> and and they had this >> uh passage in their back pocket ready to whip out. >> And so does the context support that interpretation? Uh, I'm going to say along with the majority of scholars, of course not, you jerk. Um, and that's you can quote me on that. That's >> okay. >> Um, that is the the uh the formal academic uh term response. Yeah. >> And we'll make that the official position of the podcast as well. >> Yes. That um there are there are a couple of different readings of this that that I think are interesting. One is the consensus reading. This is where if you look in in commentaries, this is overwhelmingly going to be the one that is preferred by the majority of scholars. There's another one that is a bit more of a minority reading, but I think is attractive. Okay. >> Um the and and I'll start with the minority reading just because I think it makes better sense of the verses that come before the author pretending to be Paul talking about when Paul was there and it's like, you know, I had a right to demand the food, but I didn't, right? because I was I was working um uh you know for my my wages. >> I was being a good little worker bee. >> Yeah. And >> to specifically to teach all of you how to be good little worker bees >> to set an example. And so the idea here is that >> he was someone who had an ecclesiastical office and he was fulfilling duties associated with that office. rather than treat the fulfillment of those duties as meriting payment through the resources provided by the community, food being being the main one. He said, "No, no, no. My duties towards the church, I'm not charging for. I'm going to work to earn my the food that I am uh am served and am fed." So, the the reading that I find attractive that unfortunately uh just for me uh unfortunately is not the majority reading is that Paul here is talking about people who actually have responsibilities within the the governing body of the church. People who hold offices within the church who are like well I'm a bishop, I'm an overseer. I'm a pastor. I'm a teacher. I'm an evangelist. Whatever. Therefore, I don't need to go out and get a day job. my work for the church should be enough for me to be able to enjoy the resources provided by the congregation. >> It's weird that modern ecclesiastical leaders don't prefer that particular reading of this. I don't know why they wouldn't. That's uh it seems so strange that they wouldn't want everyone to think that they should also have to have a day job. >> Yes. Yes. Well, the you know, we've we've merged the day job with the ecclesiastical uh uh duties um within most uh within most uh Christian traditions, denominations. >> Well, that's true. Your tradition does not do that. >> Kind of. Yeah. When once you get into central leadership, there is there is a stipen uh that is >> Yeah. The higherups get paid, but but like you know, the the parish leader, the bishop of the ward, uh >> Yeah. >> doesn't he gets bupcus? >> Yeah. And and that's because he's has a day job. Yeah. >> He's not he's not being um you know he's getting nothing. It's volunteer. It's the the lay clergy is is what they call it. But and then the higherups that is their only job that they have which which is the rationalization for the stipend. Whether or not you think the stipend is is fair or exorbitant or whatever uh is going to depend on on other factors. But >> one way to understand this is, hey, these are people who are working for the church and then saying, "I shouldn't have to have a day job." And the passage is saying, "No, if you're going to eat the church's food, you need to earn it." Uh, so it's not talking about the poor and the needy. It's not saying that when the, you know, people come into the soup kitchen and it's like, "How many hours did you work down uh at the, you know, the shipyard, >> right? Uh, but before I ladle your soup into your bowl, that's not what it's saying at all. It's it's saying, "Hey, don't be a lazy apostle." Um, you got to you've got to have your day job. 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Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plan. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. >> So that's that's one reading interpretation number one. The the more common reading is based on the understanding that this is is coming when people are like oo second coming any day now. >> Yes. >> Any day now. And and that was the historical Paul was like, you know, don't even bother getting married. Don't bother having kids if you don't have kids because it's coming any day now. So, um you don't want to be uh stuck in some kind of transition period. you don't want to be having to go through your orientation videos when the Lord comes. So >> with a kid on your side like that's just that's just going to bug everybody. >> And so based on that, most scholars today suggest that this is a reference to people who again are not poor, are not needy, are relatively well off who are deciding they're just going to coast into the escaton. The church has everything I need. I don't need to continue with my day job because Jesus is coming back too soon. Anyway, so that's the more popular reading that this is about folks who have the means to work, who have the resources, but are deciding, you know what, I'm going to put my feet up and I'm just going to let the church um prop me up uh until Jesus arrives. So it's an esqueological laziness that that is being condemned in verse 10 according to what seems to me to be far and away the most common reading of this passage. >> What what what weirds me out about that is uh if the escatana is coming, why not coast? Let him coast. What are we doing here? It's Look, it's it's all over in just a little bit. If you if you have the means to coast, feels like coast, baby. Have fun. >> Well, and and that is that is a question that you would bring up if maybe this were actually written by Paul, >> right? >> But that's one of the reasons probably for the postpaul authorship of this text is the delayed Peruia, the delayed Escaton. Hey, it hasn't come yet. Generations are passing on. It was supposed to be here. And that's when you get Yeah. That's when you get people going, "Okay, back to having kids, back to work. Let's, you know, we can't just rest on our laurels and and um just wait for this thing to happen. We got to knuckle down and and uh support ourselves." So, that may be the reason that that this is in this passage is because people were doing that. People were like, "I thought y'all said it was going to be any day now." So, I decided to cancel uh you know, my contracts and this work trip uh and and all that kind of stuff. And they're going, "Well, we need to we need to do something about this." Well, write another letter. >> And um okay, well, what are we going to say? Well, tell them that they don't work. They don't get their asses back to work, they're not going to eat, uh you know, the bishop's storehouse is going to close. That's right. >> So, um I think that's that's the more popular reading. >> Don't eat your meat. You can't have any pudding. >> Okay. I don't want to quote more of the um of the the song. You you have made me paranoid. Uh how can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat? That's all I'm saying. Anyway, >> how can how can I be expected to speak naturally when I'm not allowed to sing? Um and you know, I'm an awful singer, so that's part of it. But um so so I think that's that's the most common reading and that still does not validate the the folks who are slinging this passage around uh to demonize and to try to deny SNAP benefits to the poor and the needy uh demanding they have work requirements and and things like that. And we've seen that kind of rhetoric from a number of prominent evangelical Christians. >> Very much so. Eric Hovind is one who has uh who has come out and say this. Somebody named Pastor Joseph Hall. I'm not familiar with Pastor Hall. Um Christopher Arps is another. >> Uh and then there's there's a guy on on social media. I I wish I could remember his name, but he does a lot of videos where he's in like Disney World or Disneyland wearing a MAGA hat and he'll be like and and film people's reactions to him being a a jerk in in public and and then make fun of them. But he likes to uh to dance offbeats and um uh and have anti-woke slogans on the screen. And and he was doing the same thing. And and this is an example of some, you know, he's doing this celebratory dance. Yay, >> kids are going to go hungry. >> That's how Christian I am. Um and >> and I also see it used by people like talking about here's why you don't be a socialist and blah blah blah and and and often in in the context of people pointing out that likely Jesus would have been considered a socialist now considering some of his what he said. I don't know that that's correct. We should get into that at some point. >> Oh yeah, that would be a great topic for a for a show. >> Uh but I do think that it that it is uh because here's the thing. Okay, I I I believe you that scholars have uh that perspect those different potential perspectives on this passage. But it does seem to me that a plain reading of the passage feels to me pretty clear like it feels like it is a valid interpretation of this passage to say if you don't work or if you're unwilling to work you should not eat. >> Now unwillingness is a very slippery slope concept uh especially considering the fact that you know it doesn't take into account mental illness. It doesn't take into account >> inability to work. It doesn't, you know what I mean? Not all disability is visible. >> You know, it's easy to say, "Oh, yeah, the guy in the wheelchair probably shouldn't be made to do construction or whatever, but like it's not easy to see everyone's disability and not everybody's capable of work." >> Yeah. >> However, so I think that that's a I think I think it's a valid thing to say. Look, it says if you're anyone unwilling to work should not eat. It says that. But it seems to me that there are many passages, red letter passages at that >> that quickly refute it. And if you're willing to ignore passages that are quotations of Jesus Christ himself in favor of a potentially pseudopagraphical Pauline epistle, it feels like you're on the wrong track. >> Yeah. Yeah. There's and there there are plenty of passages where Jesus talks about the need to provide for the poor and the needy without adding any any qualifications uh to it. And yeah, and you know, you have a lot of Christians today who will talk about and and this is particularly popular among the uh the folks who confuse Jesus for a libertarian. Surprisingly common, but people who are like uh you know, no, the uh in the New Testament, you know, the uh Jesus was all about your your own liberty and you know, didn't want to force anybody to do anything. And it's like, have you read the New Testament? >> Right. Jesus was all about forcing everyone to do his thing. >> And then and then what what and then they they do the whole the the role of the government is just to protect the rights of the people. Everything else is is the role of the individual. It's like that's a that's an enlightenment era at very best idea. like it's developed more in the 19th century, but that's that's like Austrian school libertarianism, not the New Testament, >> right? >> And the notion and and they appeal to this >> in order to obviously defend uh not funding or not supporting um welfare programs, a social a strong robust social safety net. as if you could make the plausible case that when you look in the New Testament, Jesus is like, "Look, my priority is not that they get fed. It's just that the correct mechanism is used if they are going to get fed." Like the notion that Jesus would be like, "Look, it it doesn't matter if they end up with food. It if it's going to go through the government because I don't want it to go through the government." That's asinine. That's just laughable. And then they say, "No, it's our responsibility. We got to do this. >> Nobody's been stopping you, >> right?" >> Like there are and and and this is not to say Christians and atheists and Jewish folks and Muslims and Buddhists and Hindu and pagans and other traditions and non-traditions don't give generously. There are there are generous givers across all of those social identities, right? But Christians have not been stopped from from solving themselves the problem of poverty, right? And oddly enough, it hasn't been solved. >> Yeah. It that is a funny question like Yeah. If someone's like that should be that should be up to the individual. Okay. Well, are you doing it? >> Yeah. If not, >> what are you doing? >> Then shut up. >> Yeah. Cuz what did Jesus say in Luke 12? the commandment, sell your possessions, give the money to the poor. That's right. >> Like, you can you can dismiss the uh the rich young ruler as like, oh, that was just his that was just the sidebar where he was like, this is just for you. This is what I'm going to tell you and nobody else. Don't write this down. This is just for you. Um, but Luke 12, you don't really have uh that option. Jesus is like all y'all, >> all y'all. >> Whoever has two coats must share one must share with another who has none. whoever has >> slightly different context there, but um >> I don't know. I It just seems like a thing, right? I don't know. I have two coats. I should probably give one away. >> But but the point is that rhetoric is very clearly intended to absolve them of the responsibility to do it because they're saying we got to do it ourselves. You're not doing it. And guess what? You couldn't possibly do it. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Without the government, you cannot as as a a group of Christians, no matter how many you are, you cannot and you will not >> Yeah. >> solve the problem. >> And that's the that's the real issue. I mean, that was pointed anyone who has been on TikTok over the last 3 weeks or whatever has seen that >> the experiment >> the experiment the woman who she went and started calling churches all kinds of churches and and then uh religions and a and a and a Buddhist temple and whatever >> asking for uh for a a thing of formula for her for her non-existent baby. She >> she claimed that she had a baby. Her she had run out of food and her baby needed to eat and she just said, "Can you help me?" And of the something like 40 churches that she called, >> I think nine said yes, including uh in including the the Islamic center and the and the Buddhist center and stuff. It was it was rough. If you listen to those those uh conversations, >> you hear people just outright saying, "Oh, yeah, no, we don't do that." >> Yeah. and and these are and and like there's a degree to which the receptionist or whoever it is and and I don't know if she was like put me in touch with your boss if she was getting up to decision makers or if it was just whoever answered the phone. Um but like a lot and and some of them have mechanisms for that. >> Sure. >> They were like, "Oh yeah, we have we work with this organization. You just need to call them and they will and they will get you the stuff." There was an example where and she was like, "Oh, I called them and they said they said no." And they were like, "Well, they're actually have been closed today and here is the person. I know them personally and there's no way they told you no." Um, so the so there are I I think that there are um there are mechanisms in place for a lot of these organizations. A lot of them were just being straight up jerks though. >> Yeah, it was shock. Like to me, I don't care if the church if the organization that your church has set up to provide things is closed today. If there's a baby that's not going to eat unless you help that to me, like I don't if I'm the receptionist, I'm I'll go in pocket. That's okay. Like it's absurd to me that anyone that anyone would say no to that. But all of these churches that purport to be following Jesus with all of the commands from Jesus about, you know, again, red letter of commands about, you know, I was hungry and you gave me food. Uh, in as much as you do it to the least of these, you did it to me. Like that seems like the most important mandate possible. >> Yeah. >> And she wasn't asking for money. She was like, she made it very clear. I just want the formula. >> Yeah. >> Crazy. It was it was nuts to me. >> And there's uh and and there are some people who have uh there have been videos of of sermons that were preached where people brought this up >> and con criticized and condemned the woman, >> called her a somebody called her a witch. >> And then there's >> SHE WAS CASTING SPELLS ON ALL ALL THE PEOPLE making them not be nice. >> She turned me into a noot. Um, >> but but then there's this there's this pastor named Steven Anderson. >> Oh gosh. Oh, I know. You know this guy? Oh, I am familiar with Stephen Anderson. >> Here's what here's what he posted. >> He's banned from many countries. Did you know that? >> He's literally not allowed to go to like dozens of countries. >> Yeah. And he's uh like he's he's just >> downright a jerk. Yeah. Like I've I've responded to a bunch of his videos. He does not have the first clue what he's talking about. Uh he gets everything wrong. But he posted on Twitter, >> I would be pissed if I donated to a church and found out that they were giving content warning by the way. They were giving the Lord's money to single mother I would want it to go to the Lord's work or towards helping godly Christians who are in need. Churches should not be funding fornicators and their bastards. Who does he think what >> the Lord's work? >> What does he think the Lord's work is? >> Yeah. >> Like the the the good Samaritan. >> Yeah. >> Remember that that was the the people that they were supposed to hate. Who was who was his neighbor? >> Oh, it was the people we hate because he treated him uh well. famously also uh like Jesus dealt well with prostitutes like Jesus like if you're a a single mother is not a but b uh if she were a sex worker guess what Jesus would want you to do guess guess how he would want you like look at how he responded to the sex workers and maybe go thou and do likewise. >> Yeah. Go read lay miz. >> Yeah. >> And you knowh Okay. So, um >> so there you go. Uh >> so you got you got a lot of people who are who are trying to dig through the Bible to find excuses to not help other people. Find excuses to literally demonize in some cases the poor. >> Yeah. find find excuses to basically hoard more of their money and not uh not share it with the poor and the needy, which is repeatedly commanded of followers of Jesus in in the New Testament. So 2 Thessalonians 3:10, I I get the appeal on the surface. It certainly sounds like, hey, we could use this to demand work requirements if you want SNAP benefits. But if you understand the context, you can see it's not addressing that at all. And if you actually consider it within the broader context of the New Testament as a whole, you can see that kind of undermines and directly contradicts the spirit of the command to love your neighbor. So >> um go thou and do likewise. >> Yeah. >> Is the official uh position of the data over dogma podcast. >> Indeed. All right. Uh, let's let's jump into taking issue. [Music] Dan, I don't know about you, but I enjoy a high-end mattress, but don't necessarily enjoy sky-high price tags. I know you love your mattress. What model is yours? Uh, I got the Plank Firm Lux. I got to have the firmst mattress I can. I've got a back that has been struggling for 15 years now, and this is one of the only things that makes it so I can get out of bed and jump to work. Uh, and I also got the Glacioteex uh, covers just because I sleep hot. I just run hot in general, and this helps keep me cool throughout the night. Keeps me comfortable. I don't have to worry about waking up in a pool of sweat. Yeah, it is so vital to keep yourself comfortable all through the night to give yourself the best shot at a good night's sleep that you can get so that your whole day goes a little bit better. 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Walmart Black Friday deals await. Who knew? This episode is brought to you by Nespresso. Gift magical mornings with Nespresso Virtual Pop. Compact and stylish, Virtuo Pop is made to meet every morning coffee craving. From espresso to coffee, hot or iced at the click of a button. And celebrate the season with Nespresso's limited edition coffee flavors. Sweet almond and habiscus, cinnamon and candy tamarind, and festive double espresso. Magic in the making. Shop the holiday gift collection exclusively at nespresso.com. And we're taking issue with Hixos. >> The Hixos >> uh the the Hixo. Okay, let's start by explaining >> who who slash what are slash is hixos. So, so Hixos is a term that we get from the Greek um and and I think prime probably from Mano who was a uh 3rd century BCE author historian who wrote uh wrote about ancient Egypt and he referred to these as um oh where is the >> hikos would be the the Greek >> and so that is that has come into English probably through Latin as as hixos And this is a a Greek transliteration of an Egyptian phrase that is actually and and I know people who know how to pronounce Egyptian are probably going to be like Dan. >> Uh he kasut and and this means foreign rulers or foreign lords or something like that. >> Okay, >> that is where the Egyptian seems to come from. But um Josephus uh another uh Greek writer, a Jewish Greek writer toward the end of the first century CE, he came up with a different etmology. >> He called them >> shepherd kings. >> Ah >> so you can kind of you can see where where he's going with this. Um because this is a group of uh what scholars generally refer to as West Asians. These are these are people who are from uh the land of and around Israel but probably mostly north of Israel Amorite territory moving east to northern Mesopotamia. So they are peoples. >> I saw the word Levventine. >> Levventine. Yes. The Levant is the the fertile crescent which would include Mesopotamia up over and down to uh the eastern Mediterranean shores. So uh Syria, it would be Lebanon, it would be Israel, uh down to the Sinai Peninsula, but then also Mesopotamia. So uh so that seems to be where these people are from, but they were rulers in Egypt. In fact, they took over a portion of Egypt from the native Egyptian rulers. Uh and and this happened uh 1650 to 1550 BCE somewhere in there 15th dynasty. This is what is known as the second intermediate period. And intermediate periods in Egyptian history are kind of where things got really shaky and then you know there was a power vacuum or rule broke down or or something like that. And so you have foreign rulers who come in and take over rule of lower Egypt and particularly the Nile Delta. >> Okay? >> And and here's one of the confusing things about Egyptology. We're used to thinking about countries on a map. Lower Egypt is north of Upper Egypt, >> right? >> Because it's a reference to geography >> to the direction of the flow of the river >> of the flow of the Nile River, right? So upper Egypt is higher Egypt and uh lower Egypt is lower Egypt the Nile Delta. So there was a city of Arus that is uh considered to have been the capital of Egypt the lower Egypt during this period. Um, and there were more native like native Egyptian is kind of an odd term cuz the the Egyptians their ethnicity is um was has always been kind of complex, but down about 500 miles south of uh the Mediterranean Sea on the Nile is thieves. And that's where there was another dynasty that was ruling and they were like no, you know, they were shaking their fist at the uh uh at the foreign rulers. >> Okay. >> And we have we have like uh little scarab seals >> where some people adopt they they would identify themselves as the Hixos as foreign rulers. Interesting. during that period of rule and uh for a while people were using the Egyptian literature that said these people came in and conquered and they were bloodthirsty and they were vicious and and you know they they just took over and then we we kicked them out. One of our heroes rose up and and was able to expel the bloodthirsty heathens from from the land. >> Right. sounds like the way a lot of people talk about immigrants to the United States today. But um that is not what happened. Based on archaeological and and other data, we know that they actually had been not infiltrating. Uh but they had been uh moving into the land and settling and intermaring and just getting along just fine for centuries prior to the rise of uh their dynasty, their rule. And it and their rule was probably something that was pretty organic. They were like, "Hey, we'll we'll take over while while things are are, you know, while you're trying to get things figured out until you get back on your feet. we'll go ahead and uh we'll be in charge. And while they did seem to uh there does seem to be some kind of uprising against them, there were still Semitic West Asian people uh all over that area for centuries afterwards as well. So a lot of rhetoric and propaganda tries to reduce things to simple binaries, >> right? and then vilify one side, glorify the other side. Uh, and that is what was probably going on in Egypt. But >> right, >> the reason we bring up the Hixos is because I've been seeing a lot of people trying to argue that the Hixos represent evidence that the Hebrews were enslaved in Egypt or that this was the context for Joseph's rise to power uh, in the book of Genesis. And uh there have been folks who have argued that well if there was already a Semitic uh administration in power and makes it so much more likely that they would have elevated this other Semite even though Yeah. And in the book of Genesis when Joseph invites his family to come to Egypt he says tell them you're shepherds and then Egyptians hate shepherds. They'll tell you oo go over take the uh that land over there and then they get goan. And so for Josephus to call them shepherd kings >> okay >> is kind of h yeah suggesting oh these are these are people associated with uh with Joseph and Jacob's family. And so uh the the timelines don't really work out though. That's uh that's a problem if we take the >> So when was so when are we thinking you mentioned that the uh the Hixos were were sort of uh 16 mid600s to mid 1500s >> BC. 17th to 16th centuries BCE. >> And then so when when would Joseph theoretically have sub been supposed to have been alive? Well, >> okay. >> So, um that's fair. It >> depends on when you date the Exodus. >> Um they were supposed to >> Joseph Joseph was before the Exodus, right? >> Yes. Yes. Joseph was well before the Exodus. >> I mean, I know I know Genesis is before Exodus, but I don't know how if it al if it's supposed to be chronological in that way. >> Yes, it it is supposed to be. and and Joseph Joseph gets sold into slavery in Egypt. And then the family comes to Egypt to escape famine. Joseph is in power. Joseph says, "Hey, uh, you know, stay with me." And um, and then that is supposed to explain how it is that the Hebrews became um, you know, located in Egypt. And then there was another king rose up that did not know Joseph and he was like, "Hey, there are a lot of these Hebrews around. let's enslave them precisely as uh you know Columbus did when he arrived uh in 1442 or '92 and said hey we could we could enslave all these people >> right there doesn't seem to be any gold but uh look at all these people we could just decide we own >> yeah there that's they're like money >> um so the if you date the Exodus to the 1400s BCE, which is what a lot of folks do. They'll say, "Oh, this was Aman Hoteep II. That was the the pharaoh." 1440 to 1420 somewhere around there as the date of the Exodus. That only gives, you know, like max a little over 200 years from Joseph to to Moses, which doesn't really make sense. They were supposed to have been in Egypt for around 400 years. >> Well, and there were millions of them. >> Uh, two Yeah. two to five million um participating in the Exodus. based on um calculations from from what the text says. >> So that it it feels like it feels like to go from Joseph's family to 2 to four million people in 200 years that feels like a stretch. it. Yeah, it is um enthusiastic definitely. Um >> they were enthusiastic if that's what >> but you know this is a folks like Ron Wyatt, folks like Chuck Mistler. Um >> Ron Wyatt's a favorite of the podcast. >> Yes. Yes. Um and and even actual archaeologists like Bryant Wood, who is somebody who gets appealed to a lot when it comes to Jericho. He's one of the ones who provided this uh argument against Canyon and the and the consensus view that that the the big walls uh fell down around 1550 B.CE. He was like no it's closer to 1400 BC. Um but even he while being a little more cautious was like it could have been when Joseph showed up. But that's that only works if you date the Exodus to the late 1200s BCE, which some people do and say, "Well, that's Ramsy's and you know, you got the city Py Ramseies is one of the cities that they built, so the 1200s must work better." Um, none of them work like the the >> Yeah. >> neither of those dates works. So, >> and as we've talked about, there was no Exodus. We can we can also just say like yes we're entertaining the thought so that we can just sort of follow the logical thing through but uh >> we have I mean the thing is that we do have evidence of the hixos but we don't have evidence of any of the rest of this stuff. >> Yeah. Yeah. And >> other than the Bible itself >> and just the fact that they were Semitic peoples, they came from West Asia is not enough because there were lots of Semitic peoples and and I think most scholars think that they were probably further north. They were probably coming from areas of Syria and and around there and into Mesopotamia because there seems to be some uh cuniform macadian influence and stuff like that. >> So um >> I mean it makes sense, right? There's there's a landbridge there. you can just go from Israel to Egypt. It just it's you just go there. So like it it makes sense that you know if there was a power vacuum in Egypt and there were a bunch of people who were powerful in Israel, you could just go. It's just like you know what I mean? Like >> Yeah. >> It doesn't it doesn't seem like it needs any more anything greater than that. >> Yeah. And and there was a lot of genetic ad mixture. you had people um going into Egypt from from elsewhere just like same with the US. >> They and they didn't even have uh border patrol back then. Um you know, you could just walk in >> and uh you know, you might be treated quite differently as a foreigner, >> but uh uh yeah, they they wouldn't say, "Hey, where are your papes? Your papers?" Um >> right. They might say, "Hey, what are you doing here?" And if you say, "I have an army and or look at how much money I have. Look at how much goods and and and gold I have to trade." >> Say, "Hey, >> you might you might get welcomed." >> Yeah. Or robbed. >> Or robbed. Um, so yeah, attempts to find Joseph, Jacob, uh, the enslaved Hebrews, Moses, those those folks in in the Hixos is misguided at best. >> Yeah. >> Um, and and does not work. And and please please please anybody out there if you hear somebody say well there's a canal called Joseph's Canal in Egypt please please that is >> is there such a canal >> there is there is such a canal however that name is only a few hundred years old >> um yeah and that that canal uh it it connects uh the Nile to the fume um which is but it is it is basically a a deepening of a natural uh not constant waterway. Yeah. That that uh broke through uh like in the plea to scene. >> So yeah, Joseph didn't dig that canal. >> Yeah. I mean that's one of those things like uh Mount Ararat or whatever where it's like uh yeah don't don't read too much into that. That name is newer than you think it is. >> Yeah. Yeah, it is. Uh in in I think it might be I think it only might have been like the 1800s that >> that uh that name was added to to that canal. I don't remember. And and it was uh Islamic uh in origin the attribution of that canal to Joseph. So >> the the Barusf >> Yes, there's that's the one. >> Yeah, I I Googled it while you were talking. I can do that. >> Yes. Uh he of uh not Cat Stevens. >> That's uh Yse Ysef Islam. That's >> right. That's a different thing. >> Wrote some of the the one of the greatest singer songwriters of all time. But um yeah, we're not talking about him. >> Not talking about him. >> Not. >> All right, friends. Uh well, there you go. That's the uh the Hixos. Uh a little bit of fun with uh with history and archaeology there. uh if you would like to uh become a part of making this show happen and let me tell you something, it's the it's the main thing that makes this show go is the support from our listeners. Um, you can go to our uh Patreon which is patreon.com/dataoverdogma and then uh sign up where you know if you sign up at the $10 a month level you can get the afterparty which is bonus content. Uh sign up at the $5 a month level and you can get early access to an adfree version of every episode. That's always great. Um if you can't afford that, that's fine. Why don't you find a way to share us if you like us? You know, share on your talk about us on your socials, share the the YouTube, uh do whatever you can. We appreciate all the help we can get. We can always use more help. Uh thanks so much to Roger Gouty for editing the show and thanks to all y'all for tuning in. We sure do appreciate you. Bye everybody. 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