YouTube Video Yc405VSLTzg ![rw-book-cover](https://img.youtube.com/vi/yc405VSLTzg/maxresdefault.jpg) ## Metadata - Author: [[YouTube]] - Full Title: YouTube Video Yc405VSLTzg - Category: #articles - Document Tags: [[education]] [[facilitation]] [[h1]] [[visual]] [[xref]] - Summary: YouTube Video yc405VSLTzg - URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yc405VSLTzg [Music] You're listening to the Sketchnote Army podcast. I'm your host, Mike Roody, the author of the Sketchnote Handbook and the Sketchnote Workbook. And this is the podcast where I chat with sketch noters and visual thinkers and try to understand what makes them tick. Hey, are you looking for the ideal sketchbook for your sketch noting practice? The Sketchnote Idea Book is the sketchbook designed for sketch noters. Equipped with no bleed, no showthrough paper, you can take almost any marker or pen you can throw at it. Get 10% off with code army at airship.store. Hey everyone, it's Mike and I'm here with Andrew Park. Andrew, welcome to the show. Thanks for coming. >> Thanks for having me on. It's a real pleasure. Uh we were chatting uh probably longer than I should have chatted with Andrew before the recording because I'm a huge fan. So um I'm excited to have you on. I think there's lots of fans who probably are in this podcast or watching the video that um and we were talking about that a little bit. Uh the idea of when you do something that's notable often you're blind to the impact on other people. I know that I am. I occasionally get these emails in like your book changed my life. Like oh really? It was just a book to me. So, um, welcome to the show and I guess we'll just start off. Tell us a little bit about what you do for your day job. We know you I guess I know you as the RSA animate uh illustrator um or animator or both. I guess obviously you do more than that. So, I'd love to hear what you do. >> Yeah, it's a misnomer actually. I'm not a very good animator. I know the principles of animation, but I have a really talented team that um actually bring my drawings to life. If if I was going to say anything, I was probably I probably would class myself as a cartoonist. >> Okay. >> Cartoonist illustrator. Um but then I am a visual thinker as well. I know how to sort of join up concepts and you know build maps of things. So >> um a joined up a joined up thinking cartoons possibly. It's a bit of a mouthful but uh that's kind so in my day job. So obviously the RSA films um were quite successful and it enabled me to build a company around the the methodology. So in about 2008 we developed the methodology the process it had weirdly hadn't existed before. There were a couple of little smatterings of it out in the world. I think they did a I think a UPS commercial used a whiteboard and had a guy drawing on it as a commercial I think early on. Um, but the the the genesis of it was um graphic recording or scribing in in um that's where I learned how to put my pictures together. >> Okay. >> Uh and then literally had a camera over my shoulder and I think that hadn't been done before surprisingly. >> Um and I think one of the innovations of that and it wasn't me that came up with it was actually the RSA themselves. They sent me a video of someone taking notes in a journal for the New York library and they'd sped the hand up. >> So, it was >> it was it was really interesting actually. I thought that's the missing component because I was trying to literally draw these things live fast. >> Yeah. >> Which wasn't really working. Um I didn't Yeah. I had the missing thing in my brain that why can't I draw 100 miles an hour? Um, and I I I literally couldn't work out, oh, you can speed it up. It's video, you know. >> Yes. >> Um, so once I saw that, it all sort of fell into place. >> Um, so, you know, there there's a an author called Steven Johnson. Do you know him? Where I come From? >> I need to find that book now. >> It's really good. And he talks about um ideas don't come as eureka moments. They are often come as slow hunches. you know, they build, they bubble up and things percolate. And I think in terms of the RS anime, that's kind of what happened. I've been working scribing, capturing conversations live, graphic facilitation, graphic recording, and then when you then put a video component in that and think, well, how do I make that work? The hand from the New York video, New York Library video was the the kind of thing as a catalyst that made me think, here's how it could work. And then if you notice from the early early RSA animates, they're really ropey, really rough, really uh handmade if you like. >> And then as we've gone through, they've become more refined and more, you know, you just start thinking, oh, what can I do with these things? How how can I >> Yeah. So, um, my day job now is is, um, trying to talk about this stuff, um, extend it in the community, how, you know, people were interested in how how visual thinking can help them. I work with companies and work with businesses to tell their stories. The on the back of the RSA films, uh, clients came to us and said, "Hey, we want one of those. This seems like a really good way of telling our story." So, >> um, yeah, over the last 20 20 years now, um, build building a company >> building a company. I'm really proud of the team I've got. I've got some really fantastic visual thinkers and illustrators, animators that have have taken it in their own direction, you know. Um, it's not just I I I do a I practice it in my way, but then the company has lots of different flavors of how that kind of permeates in the world. >> So, yeah, I'm really proud of those guys. There's some fantastic visual thinkers in in in cognitive. >> That kind of gives your clients a menu in a sense, right? So, you can show them different styles. Is that something that they >> I mean there's a stylistic overlay that can can go across the films, but if we're going to talk about the methodology of whiteboard animation, it has the same DNA at its foundation. Um, >> which is showing information in space. >> Mhm. >> So that you can see the relationships between things. >> Yeah. >> Uh taking people on a on a narrative or a journey. So you you there's lots of zooming in and zooming out. >> Keeping the focus. Holding the focus. Yeah. keeping the focus. I mean, um, when we do plan stuff out, we often, you know, you build the big map and you show a client the end state, it's really overwhelming for them. Yeah. >> And then you say, "Don't worry, it's not going to do that. >> We're going to take you right into the beginning and things draw and they build in they build up in time." >> So, um, >> yeah. So, what we have to do in in the way that we work is to have that end state in mind when we build stuff. So it's not I I suppose with sketch noting you know you're building it in time live right >> yeah typically yeah >> yeah that's what you do whereas we would probably plan it to end up with that end state and then >> then almost then erase all that and go back to the beginning and >> work backwards. Yeah. So that's that's how it kind of works. That's and that's you know what I was I was mentioning when we first chatted before we recorded that the first thing I thought when I saw the RSA I don't know which one I saw first probably Dan Pink was the first thing I thought was wow there was a lot of preparation that went into making this video that I don't know people necessarily realize has been gone on um because as an old print uh designer like a graphic designer who did print production everything I designed I had to find a way to make that print on paper And I learned the hard way when things didn't work. And I changed my process based on it. And I knew once I saw that like, wow, okay, somebody did some serious planning. And exactly what you said, they kind of reverse engineered from finish state backwards. Okay, which here's how it looks when it's finished. How do we how do we piece this together in a logical way that holds focus and brings people through to the end? That was pretty immediately apparent. Um, and I thought it was just like, wow, this is really cool. And I couldn't stop watching them. So, as is true for a lot of people, right? It was a huge I don't know, came out of nowhere, I guess, for a lot of people and suddenly there's this cool thing and you can't get enough of it, which I guess is was good for you, I suppose. >> Oh, it was great. But like you say, you know, you sometimes don't know because you you can't see the wood for the trees. You're involved in it. You're working in it closely and it's rare that you put your head above the parapit. >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean obviously I knew early on the RSA when when we put the first couple out they said these are really popular. They're more popular than the talking head videos >> and we were like, "Oh, great. Cool. Then we we should make some more then." And then we continued and it was very much an organic let's make the next one and then the next one, you know. Um, >> and then we started to, well, I think it was like the Dan Pink or the Ken Robinson RSA animates that just went bang and millions of people watch those, which was really surprising. Um, >> and that enabled us to sort of think differently about, you know, I was no longer thinking, well, I still go out and scribe. Um, and James, you've you've interviewed my friend James. >> Yeah. James Bailey, he said, oh, you've done a Beatles, you know, you don't you don't play live anymore. you you're in the studio. >> Um, which I thought was quite funny. >> Um, subsequently I I really do still go out and do scribbing still. Uh, I like it. I like meeting people. I like talking to people. I like seeing things happen in the room live, which you don't get when you're making animations, you know. >> Uh, there's a bit of a delay obviously. You you have to make work. Mh. >> Um, >> but like you said with the planning, weirdly, um, there was a bit of planning, but it I tend to work very organically and it it's probably really annoying for my animators when I plan stuff because halfway through I'm like changing my mind of things. And in a normal animation pipeline, you know, you got you're making something for Nickelodeon or the Cartoon Network. All of this stuff's mapped out at the beginning. You know, it's rigid. you you do your pencils, you do your inks, you whatever until it's finished and there's hardly any kind of room for maneuver because it's all on tight deadlines and budgets and things. Whereas because the um the whiteboard animation process is is quite um organic, but it's also quite cheap really. In the early days, it was just a camera over my shoulder filming on a whiteboard. >> Yeah. >> So, you could actually rub it out with your thumb and do it again, you know. It wasn't like, oh, there's a whole pipeline of people. It was literally at the beginning me and an animator called Rob. And we were kind of shackled together, bit like Picasso and Brack when they were doing Cubism, right? They were like egging each other on. So I would draw pictures and say, "I wanted to do this. How can we do this, Rob?" And Rob would be like, >> "Let me go and think about that technically." And he'd come back in about half an hour and go, "We could do it this way." And it was literally that's how those early ones u were made. They were rammshackle uh experiments and even the RSA um team were the same. Um and as these things became quite popular, the RSA got approached by quite big clients, you know, big multinationals and saying, "How big's your marketing department or your your creative team?" It's like, well, there's just me doing the script. That was Abby. And then there's Andrew and I they probably didn't even know Rob existed at the point at that point, you know. They were like, "Well, we've only there's about four of us." >> And they were like, "What? How can you make this thing that is a global thing with four people?" And it I I think it's just it doesn't happen anymore. Things don't work like that anymore. I suppose now with Tik Tok and things like that and and individual creators and >> you can do stuff on your phone which we couldn't back then. You know the early stuff was you had to have video cameras and they were quite big. >> Yeah. >> Tripod. Yeah. >> The first uh the first film we made was with a flip cam. I don't know if you remember those. >> I think I have one of those. I think I have one. Yeah. >> Had a red button. A red button on the back. You press it and it comes on and it that was the first the RSA animates first film because I didn't want to invest any money in the equipment because I thought they might not want these. >> Yeah. >> So I bought a flip cam. I don't know how much that was. A couple of hundred quid or something. >> Yeah. >> And I thought all right. And then the next one we hired a camera and then the next one we hired a better camera and then we bought a camera you know it started like that. >> Escalated. Yeah. >> Yeah. So that's I think this is you know most things happen this way don't they? They're they're very much kind of shuffling along and building as you go. >> Yeah I think so too. >> No one has >> Yeah. And I think you know the comment that um you know only four of you are doing this. I think actually most innovations seem to come from small teams because at some point if the g teams get too big it can get really uh wonky and it's hard to suddenly people are worried about making mistakes or you know the impact right you got to have a small team to have that agility it seems like >> agility is the key word I think you can make decisions on the fly you can throw things away you can change your mind all of those sort of things are really important and it's ironic now that I spend a lot of my working life helping large complex teams talk about their stuff in a simple way. So it's like you know these multinational companies have got a lot of moving parts >> functions people >> um tiers of work you know and they're they can't they can't see they can't see their whole organization. >> Yeah. And the thing about what we do in the animations and we show their whole organiz you can you know you can draw it in one iceband you can draw a big picture of it and show h show show how it works um and that's one of the really good benefits of I think what I've learned over the last 20 years is is being able to help people um tell complex stories in a simple way. Maybe that's encouraging for people who do work like any kind of visual work, whether it's animation like you do or um even mapping, live mapping. I've done some of that stuff. >> Um >> the the idea that these big companies are so big and so rigid and so conservative and worried about making mistakes that they they're almost uh unable to do the kind of innovative, small, agile work. And so therefore they have to bring in agencies like yours and others to kind of see them because they can't they're blind to it or they you know they can't quite get their head around it and so they need someone to kind of do it to do that for them or with them. >> Yeah. I mean complexity I I just did a workshop with um uh a professor of business. His name is Jonathan Trevor and he he says that uh complexity is the alignment killer which I thought was a really good phrase. >> Interesting >> because complexity just adds all of these uh all of this fog that you can't see around and most businesses really need to align all of their functions and all their processes in order to achieve their goals. Right? And I think that as a visual thinker like you know if you're sketch noting or capturing things live or making animations like we do it really is a uh it's like a lighthouse. It cuts through that fog. It shows people direction. It shows >> the linkages the joint you know the stories the narratives. Um sometimes even the process of mapping stuff out like you do when you capture things live at an event. These things emerge and and they are aha moments for a a group of people. They'd never have seen this before. It's almost like pulling a sheet away from a >> Yeah. >> pulling the sheet off and look, it's there. And we can see it as visual thinkers, right? But they they can't. >> Yeah. >> So, it is a superpower. >> I think I think about um this ability to make connections is really valuable. And I think many visual thinkers do it naturally because it's just the way I guess we're processing information. And so then revealing it in this way and showing the connectivity to us it just feels like well of course that's doesn't that make sense and everybody's like wow this is amazing like sometimes I'm confused by that. Um I can tell you that uh my my whiteboard story for you is I worked at a financial services company and we used to map out interfaces with a whiteboard. So I was pretty inspired by your work and we had this giant wall-sized whiteboard and uh every Monday it was whiteboard wireframe Monday. So we would sit the team down. It was developers, product owners and business analyst. And my the business analyst on the team was my buddy and he assisted me and we would ceue up the feature and we would say okay this is a feature we're working on today. We might look at it in the application. We had an old app that we're building as a web app. So we'd say this is how it used to work. What can we do with this? And then we'd start the discussion and I would go to the board and as people talked I would be drawing the stuff they were saying. I mean just listening and visualizing it and annotating it. Um and I remember there was one developer who one day I was drawing something and he just he came up to me afterwards and says how are you drawing what I'm thinking? He's like I don't know. I'm just listening to you. I'm making the connections. What you're saying makes sense to me and I've got this capability because I'm working with the software too. Like oh I see where he's going. and I would just visualize it on the whiteboard and uh it worked really well. It became sort of a unifying and now that you say that um alignment it was alignment really because the whole team was there. They all saw it going down and I mean some of our most successful features were actually the ones that we had to struggle with three, four, five times in a session until we figured it out because it was complex and we forced ourselves to work our way through that. And a lot of times I wasn't the one really coming up with the great ideas. It was the developers who would say something or even better they would say, "Hey, can I draw this?" Like, "Yeah, come up." And I would give them the pen and they would visualize it on the on the whiteboard. So they were starting to get into it. That was a really that environment was really fun and I could see how it would be exciting for you know someone that you're working with who doesn't do that every day that that could be quite exciting to be participating in. Well, without being a bit woowoo about it, I think that um I always look at what we do as in a kind of shamanistic way, right? >> So, if we go back to the cave paintings of Lasco, uh you know, 30,000 years ago, you know, these these paintings, they they're a whiteboard on a cave wall, right? They do they they function in exactly the same way as what we're doing. we just do it on a on on paper or whiteboard. You know, what you're essentially doing is taking a group on on a journey and um taking what's in everybody's brains and putting it in a group space. >> Mhm. >> So, um you know, I love cave painting. I think they're really really fascinating and I think that uh in a way they probably helped us evolve our thinking. Um I think they're very special in that way that they helped us develop as humans. Yeah. being being able to show that probably I mean the use of psychotropic uh plants probably helped uh and but you know these things I was always fascinated by by these cave paintings because I was reading um about the flickering fra flames that you know these were subterranean caves pitch black couldn't see anything down there and they were actually quite dangerous to get to >> and you know uh these artists shaman whatever you want to call of them were responsible for taking people on those those journeys. They were the ones that painted those images and those they were the ones that told those stories in order to uh you know there is some no one knows exactly what the reasons were for those paintings but they have some idea that they were some kind of rituals or tools or or maybe some kind of training and devel you know they like training and development tools. Hey this is how to kill the animals that we want to eat. Uh, so it was almost like, you know, an onboarding >> an onboarding course. Uh, yeah, come and join us. >> That would make a hilarious video actually. You could have a shaman and, you know, like caveman going down in the cave and like, okay, it's time for our our learning and development session. >> Here's how to kill the jaguar. Um, but the the flickering frames were also really interesting. They have found evidence on on some of the kind of outcrops of the cave um where they've drawn different states of the animal, right? So when the flames flicker, it creates a sort of animation >> um like movement. So the the the the leopard's head moves in when the flames flicker and it it makes >> it weird, right? And they've also found like little um zoatrope things. So these little discs with a a deer on one side and a and a lying down deer on the other >> and they put um a strap between the two and it spins >> spin it. >> So you create a kind of deer that goes up and down. So they were they were experimenting with animation. >> Wow. >> All that time go. >> Wow. >> Yeah. And we we think oh well you know these people were primitive. No they weren't. They were actually you know they had a limited tool set >> right? >> But they were thinking in exactly the same ways that we were thinking. how how can we, you know, how can we get people on board without hunting or whatever they were trying to do? >> Here we are at the day. >> Yeah, definitely was it was the alignment of the day >> with the tools available >> with the tools available. Um, but I I love all that. But so I I I rather grandiosely say that we're kind of sham shamanistic in what we do. We we we have the abilities to take people that don't think they have those abilities. and you're you're doing a lot of work with that. You know, you're enabling people to think, "Oh, >> I can't draw." But you're enabling them to think in that way using sketch notes. >> But um but for for what we do, we take people that are just totally involved in, you know, strategy and business and say, "Here, you know, out of that ether, here's what you're thinking." >> And they go, "Oh my god." But you know, you you just you are channeling just what they're saying in the they said it like you said with the the um app development. You know, >> it wasn't you doing it. You you were kind of like an idiot so you were like, "Oh, >> exactly." Yeah. I was just channeling it. Yeah. Bringing it in. >> Channeling, you know. >> I think it almost helped too that me being a designer, like I knew how the materials of the software worked, but these guys had to build it. So like I could come up with crazy stuff and they might look at me and like oh Mike that's going to be building that's going to be a challenge. Um so you know I had to rely on them. So I think a lot of it was just trying to see the opportunities and yeah that's really interesting. It's almost like being a facilitator guiding people into a m into a state of mind right in a lot of ways it's a state of mind. That's what I always say when people it's like the sketch noting stuff is way more mindset and listening. I could care less if your drawing is not great. That's not the point. The point is, are you listening? Are you identifying the things that are valuable and then capturing them in a way that you can refer back to them or that someone else is inspired, right? That's that's where the exciting stuff happens. So, >> no, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. I I don't think it the ability to draw is is kind of secondary. >> Yeah. And you could probably do a lot with it with the process, but you know, just using shapes and and stuff like that. You know, someone like Kelie Bird would do something where she's doing a lot of um shapes and patterns and and forms to suggest emotions and things like that with her >> generative scribing stuff. >> Exactly. Yeah. >> It doesn't need like you like for people like me, I'm drawing like people because I'm fascinated by people. >> Yeah. and and anthropomorphic things, you know, it's a teacup with a face and it's doing stuff, you know, a level >> this blend of things. Yeah. >> Yeah. So, it's it's horses for courses, right? You you you tell your brand of storytelling or facilitation with what what what you like. I mean, I tend to I've come from a comic book background, you know. >> You can see that clearly in your style. >> I love people like Will Eisner and Oh, yeah. All that sort of stuff. I actually went on a on a course with Scott Mloud up in Minnesota >> and uh he was a great guy. >> Yeah. >> And interestingly when I was on the course with Scott I was because I wanted to meet Scott because I love Have you read understanding? >> Oh yeah, definitely. I met him once he came to Milwaukee and uh I think he signed my my copy of the book. So that was fun to see him. >> So I thought I was in America at the time. I was living in Chicago. I thought well let's go up there. He's running this course. It's only three days or something. I went up there and I um I did it and he was running comic strip course but weirdly and this is before the RS animates and and everything like that. My um my way of doing stuff I I was I didn't want to do panels. I was just doing like mapping and he was like you're not getting this. I like >> I don't really want I kind I don't want put panels around things. I'm kind of like around I just like mind mapping it all. >> And he was like well I kind of want you to do panels blah blah blah. Anyway, so I did I've kind of >> you fulfilled his requirements. >> I fulfilled somewhat and he was like a bit disappointed with it and interestingly when the uh when the RSA animates came out um I saw that he was using them in his slide deck and saying this is the future of one of the ways of the future of comics. I was like what he told me not to he told me to put panels in. >> You convinced him by delivering right? You had to deliver you had to deliver the vision and then he he revised his thinking. >> Exactly. Well, I think what the only thing that probably saved it was the fact that you could use animation with it, you know, rather than if you try to you have to have some mechanism to drive people's attention around it. But um >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. I just thought that was quite funny. >> That's kind of funny how the how the worm turns, right? >> That's funny. Um I'm kind of curious. You mentioned that you'd be willing to kind of broadly talk about your process. Has it changed much since the early days? Obviously, you've figured things out and now it's probably more established. What would what does a typical project look like at a high level? >> Uh, yeah, it starts with the client really. It starts with their story. So, um, we do an endto-end process. So, we the early RSAs were all about response. So, someone like Dan Pink would give his talk and they chop it down to 10 minutes and then they just give me the audio right here. have that and I would give them the anime. Yeah. There was no real weirdly there was no like feedback or anything. I'd be like, they gave me the audio, I gave them, right? Yeah. You got to decide. Totally. >> So, I've been so lucky having that creative process. Uh my team aren't so lucky because they have to do all the client stuff. But when I do work now, I just I tend to just make my own stuff and I'm quite unmanageable really. I can work with clients, but I'm very much like, "No, this is the way it goes. This is how it fits together." So, you got to trust me on this. So, um the the a typical process in our team would be it starts with the client. We get to unpack all of their information. So, um they tell us everything. So, they bring their stories, anecdotes, slides, books, whatever they bring. We have a meeting with them and then we can then write a script. And so we've worked out over the years that >> um the sweet spot is a probably a two and a half minute 3 minute animation >> sounds about right. >> But because you're using um mo multimodal approach i.e. words, pictures, text on screen, uh vignettes, symbols, speech balloons, the whole pantheon of like visual, you know what you're dealing with. You know, boxes, arrows, all of that visual language. you can actually tell quite a complex story in a short amount of time. And so we're kind of geared up to to doing that. So once they've got a script, then we can get into what we call story mapping. >> Uh which is creating a a blueprint. So we literally this is the point where the visual thinkers get to translate the words on the page. >> Got it. >> To to the images on screen and uh we kind of build that big flat end state. That's what that that's that's the box where everything goes in, right? >> Mhm. >> The frame. >> Um, and then it is just a question of just uh directing the flow, the animation from that point. Where do we zoom in? Where do we zoom out? What bits pop on? What things get drawn on with the hand? I mean, the hand is a big part of it. >> The actual you see things getting drawn. Um, and to be honest, Mike, over the years, we've learned the formalities of the process. When I first developed it, it came instinctively. And you know, sometimes like you probably did with writing your book, you have to then think, what am I doing here? >> Yeah. >> Formally, how how is this working >> in order to teach people, right? >> Yes. >> So, so you build the process after you you've built it, >> right? you you understand the I understand setting up the IKEA wardrobe once you've built the IKEA wardrobe. >> Uh kind of that's how how it rolls really. So yeah, we formalized all the processes. Um and then it's just a question tightening those things up over time or innovating certain areas and but the the basic building blocks are there. It's telling a connected narrative in space and time using various tools. Yeah. >> Yeah. Interesting. So I'm kind of curious. So you talk about doing the end state as a blueprint >> and then the next step is the flow and like zooming in and out and uh effect. >> Yeah. So you kind of know what you start with, right? you it it's like whatever they I don't know whether it's an app they're talking about like a a widget or something or whether it's a process or whether it's like a story you know it could be you start with the hand comes on and draws >> the character the main character and then you pull out slightly and then the world builds around them and then an arrow bit you know do you know what I mean so you but we know what the end state is going to be like we know >> the scenes and how it fits together >> how to get there >> but you start off with a kind of >> magical planting of that seed and it they it visually grow. >> So do you do story boards to kind of think through those changes? Do you do an overlay on the larger story to kind of map? >> We start here and kind of work through like that. How do you kind of get between the >> I think it's Yeah, it's all come from when I used to work when I first developed the RSA animate series, I had a I had a big whiteboard um a massive not the on the first ones. I did the actually ironically did the first one on paper. Bizarrely. Oh wow. >> Um but about the fourth one I got this stuff called idea paint. Have you heard of this stuff? >> No. >> Essentially like whiteboard paint. You paint on a big wall. >> Okay. Yes. I think I purchased cans of that. I don't think it had that name but y it's basically white paint. So I wanted to get as much real estate as possible because when you're doing this stuff you want to leave it up. >> Yes. And then there might be some in the animation there might be some things over here that you cut to but they're not in the main picture. So you need lots of kind of working area. >> Mhm. >> Um but what I used to do was initially I' I' I'd listen to the audio probably about 30 times. So a 10-minute RS anime I'd listen to when I was driving. >> Okay. And I we had uh I think I used to burn it to CD. So I'd get the thing and burn it to CD. I had a CD in the car and I used to listen to it over and over and over again and over and over again. So weirdly the first port of call when I started these was the the audio. >> Okay. >> And it was really interesting because I would get to know, you know, when you listen to a record and you know the beats and you know when they breathe in and when they do the guitar that you know exactly where things fit. Hey, have you ever wanted to create travel sketch notes from an experience you've had just using the photos and memories you've got? In the reflective travel workshop video replay, I'll guide you through my process for creating travel sketch notes and then help you reflect on your own photos and memories so that you can make travel sketch notes of your own trips, too. This 2-hour recorded video includes a set of downloadable printable sketching templates and process to kickstart your own travel sketch noting practice. All this for just $20. Visit rodesign.com/travel to purchase your video and templates today. That's what I kind of did with the audio for the RS8. I used to know the beats and the and so that would give me some indication of where to draw things slowly like the hand doesn't speed up too much or where to pop things on or where to slide the film over here. >> So it was starting with the input of the audio but then I would start to build pictures in my mind as I was driving and kind of construct them >> and then I'd have to get when I got to the studio I'd have to like jot them down. I' I'd make really really rough pencil sketches, blocks, shapes, matchick characters, whatever. And then I would number them in sequence, what goes where, when. So that would be that would be the flow. Obviously, it's a bit more um sophisticated, >> I guess. Yeah. >> Yeah. Um, and there is a kind of story map that the senior creatives of my company talk clients through and they do the same thing, which is go they number the picture and then they tilt them up. At this point, we're going to go up on the top left of the thing and we'll zoom in to that bit. >> We don't tend to storyboard. I don't like to crunch my thing. This is where the Scott Mloud >> I don't like panels. I don't want to do I kind of like free form stuff. >> Um, plus I was lazy. I didn't want to, you know, drawing panels, right? >> It's extra work. Yeah. How can I? And white balls were brilliant for like, oh, I could just rub that bit out and then redraw that bit, not the whole thing. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> A lot of the technique came from at this point, I'm just going to rub that character out and draw it in a different state rather than I have to draw the whole scene again. >> Yeah. Yeah. Smart. >> You sort of I think about like you're using the material in the way that it works, right? who's taking advantage of the materials as they >> lazy boy techniques I think could be >> how can I be really efficient with this um uh and you know over the so we've migrated now to doing purely a digital whiteboard >> okay >> um but we still draw on screen so we have these Cintiq monitors where we actually >> draw and record our drawings live >> but from the inside of the computer rather than having a You don't need a camera anymore. Yeah. >> Yeah. So, and then we put the hand on too. >> Uh, but it is they are handdrawn and there's a lot of kind of knockoff you you might have seen these kind of digital DIY that Yeah, the whiteboard tools where a fake hand draws or something. >> Yeah, they're weird. I think they're they're kind of built by technical people, not visual thinkers. It's like Microsoft. It's like PowerPoint. that it's it's it's made by um made by techies. >> They're not made by people who communicate very well. That's why it's kind of linear and you know if you you go into that >> clunky and I think these these DIY whiteboard but they there was a story I heard recently a friend of mine talked to me about it. >> Um do you know Concord the supersonic plane? >> Mhm. The British had British and French developed a plane in the 70s and 80s that could fly to New York in three hours or whatever. It's a beautifully designed aircraft, >> but the Russians got hold of like they they saw this and thought we're going to make a Concord, right? >> But they didn't know how it worked, but they saw a picture of Concord. And so they'd made a replica Concord. It looked like Concord, but it had like I think um weird jet engines on it, you It wasn't. All the mechanics inside of this plane weren't real. >> They weren't that, you know, it had after burners on or something like that which they could only fly for 2 hours and they couldn't fly fast enough or whatever. It looked like Concord, but it didn't fly like Concord. >> Yeah. >> And I think with these DIY software, they look like kind of look like what we do, but they don't fly like what we do. >> Um, they have the it's it's very stylistically this is what they think it does, right? It's a whiteboard. It has this it draws in time with a VO but it's like but that's not what we do. That's part of our visual thinking. >> What we do is we we tell visual stories and we unpack at the the DNA level. What is your story about? And a lot of these DIY things is like what I think people don't understand is, hey, I've downloaded this now. It's going to make it for me. I'll just press the animate button. >> Yeah. >> And it doesn't. you know, you've got to go, "Oh I've got to write a script and I've got to work out the flow." All the stuff we do, >> they've got to do themselves. >> Yeah. >> But it makes it look like, you know, >> you take the burden on yourself in a way. >> Yeah. And I >> you're not prepared for that. >> And so, we've had a lot of people come back to us and say, "Yeah, sorry. We went down the cheap route and tried to do it for for 30 quid a month on this uh or buy the the software." And they come back to us said, "We tried it." actually the the cost of making it over, you know, my time scripting, trying to animate, working out what drawings I need. It's like you don't go to a restaurant and cook your own dinner, right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And then it's probably those things I was originally mad at them thinking, what are you doing? You're because you're kind of diluting the the methodologies. You're making it appear rubbish because I think it does a really good thing. It solves good problems. And when you dilute it with a kind of crappy solution, people think that's what it does. And it just take a lot it does take a lot of work to go, it's better than that. >> Yeah, that was that was the question I had for you was did does that software actually bring people more people to you? Because I think of it this way. Um, the more they have to do in that software, they realize what you're doing and suddenly your your service becomes a real value, right? Because you're really good at it. I'm sure they'd probably run into situations where I want to do this, but the software won't let me because the software was built to just do MVP whatever and whatever it can technically pull off. >> Yeah. >> Which is not everything, right? You're not really getting the full capability of a team like yours. >> So, that would get frustrating and probably push people back to you. >> That seems Yeah, it has happened. I mean obviously um I think people are still motivated by price in a lot of ways. Um, but I do think that essentially what this is is it's like Microsoft clip art but with moving moving components because >> the thing about what we can do as visual thinkers and including yourself Mike is that we can draw things bespokely you know >> exactly >> things that haven't existed before you know very niche things for a company comes to you and go this is what we do and we're very niche you can actually go okay we could draw exactly that. Yeah. >> Whereas with these DIY software is like, uh, I kind of need an office scene, but I it needs a little and then they have to get it off the peg and it's not quite right. So they >> they're compromising their storytelling by using clip art. >> Yeah. Spare parts. Yeah. >> Yeah. So they're building a kind of hashed together story which then obviously they're going to feel frustrated at because it's not doing what they wanted it to do. And I I don't know, some people might be happy with a that will do. >> Yeah. >> But um it doesn't help with telling nuanced stories. >> Yeah. Not for the kind of clients that you're normally working with, right? So interesting. >> Yeah. I mean, I I'd imagine it works to talk about very simple stories in a school setting, maybe where it's like one or two concepts and um >> you're not having to dig too deeply with the visual concepts or whatnot. I'm I'm sure it's fine. It's like, but then you might as well use PowerPoint. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I guess there probably is some sweet spot of someone who the tools are just enough and it does exactly what they want but and they would probably never hire you to do it because they don't have the budget for it. So there's probably a customer >> but you know >> beyond that >> and I think what what those guys do well is good marketing. You know they make it look like it's going to solve all their problems going to panacea to you know their visual thinking nightmare and then they get it and they go oh I'm a bit embarrassed about asking for my money back. It's only $30 or whatever. They just cancel, you know, cancel the subscription. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Interesting. >> And it's like having a bad restaurant, isn't it? You know, uh bad restaurant by the seaside, you know that they're only these people aren't coming back every year. >> Yeah. >> They're going to have a bad meal and then they're never going to come there again. So, >> exactly. >> Whereas, if you want to, you know, if you want a nice restaurant that you've got to work on it and you've got to make make sure it it has great food, great service >> so you repeat business. >> Yeah. Um, you mentioned something uh before we began and you said that you did some work for an education company with the kind of stuff you're doing. I would really be curious to hear what your thoughts are on that that the visuals that you're using can teach like mathematic concepts and stuff. How do you feel about that kind of thing? Like we've been talking probably more like commercial applications like selling our software or our service or whatever but like learning and we talked a little bit about this too that schools often because of the industrial era where they began focus a lot on producing industrial workers and so therefore it's a lot of verbal capability and they're sort of forgetting a lot of the visual capability and it it was interesting that you mentioned that this education company doesn't matter who they were um would use it to kind of communicate learning. So talk a little bit about that and your thoughts on using this technique and this approach for learning. >> I mean it's a logical step, isn't it? If you are I mean it and it happened at just post pandemic there where everything went indoors, right? Everyone went everybody was learning at home and they needed to have viable solutions that weren't classroom based. So we got approached. they'd seen the RSA films and other films that we'd made in that style and they they asked us to put together uh you know a a kind of proposal and an example of what what they could do and it was really nice uh collaboration actually. Um interestingly we learned a lot about how they would structure their lessons so that we then responded in if you're going to structure your lessons this way we'll respond in that way. So there was um uh an advanced organizer. You you familiar with the concept of an advanced organizer? >> No. >> It's essentially it's a piece of content that kind of primes you for what's going to be learned. >> Okay. >> In this lesson, we're going to be doing this and it's going to do that. >> And that was an interesting thing because it it when you're priming people to be educated, then they get into the zone and >> switch into that mode, right? Yeah. >> And I thought that's a really interesting way. So, um, they were like, "Oh, why why are you animating that? We were just giving you that a heads up of what the thing was about." I said, "No, but that's perfect though, isn't it?" Because that's what people they're going to get advanced organizer to tell them what's going they're going to learn. They're going to learn the stuff and then we did a recap, which is you learned this. >> So, we had this is kind of how we structured it was like tell them what they're going to learn, tell them what they're learning, and then tell them what they've learned. So, we had those. So at the end of the videos, the hand would go, you learned about this and this and this and it literally pointed to content on the screen. >> Yeah. >> Um, so we we lent very much into the kind of literally a whiteboard how it would be used in a school, right? I am a teacher. I'm teaching you this stuff and it's going to be in order and you're going to learn that and we're going to drill down into this bit and then I'm going to tell you that you've learned that bit. So it was kind of like that and um it ended up, you know, we made like 200 or so. >> Wow. >> Degree level degree level films. It was um biology, physics, some chemistry, and then we've got into statistics and mathematics. Now, I will say that um statistics and mathematics are slightly harder to visualize because they they do rely very much on the equations themselves. >> Yeah. >> But interestingly, my son is is into math and science, you know. I don't know why. I don't I I can't I don't know. >> Not sure how that happens. No, I haven't. He talks to me. I'm like, you're talking me in I can't understand a word he says. But anyway, he's he's very much into seeing a hand just draw an equation is how he learns. >> You know, those symbols mean stuff to him. >> So, we kind of lent into that, which was have the hand come on and and literally draw >> draw >> those equations like it would be drawn on a on a whiteboard. >> And it it seems to be perfect for them, you know. And then you can you can and put some little storytelling notes around it. Um some vignettes and things. But um mostly with those ones that the the sort of physics equations and math equation you just draw them as they are taught and that seems to work. >> Interesting. And then so were these 200 uh films they were kind of overviews about the topic and then the ideas was then you would do some kind of activity that was deeper or practice. So they they >> initially were on their education platform and then they kind of got rolled out to YouTube. You can actually I could I'll give you the links if people could check them out if they want afterwards. Um but yeah there would be things like >> uh what is photosynthesis for example and then we >> or how do cells work and you would have an animation all the kind of stuff inside a cell. Um some of the physics stuff were like uh gravity um uh just yeah the the sort of basic physics electronic components or you know all of that sort of stuff. Um >> kind of conceptual learning in a way like you're getting the concept of it. >> Yeah. >> And if you have a good foundation it makes everything else easier. >> It would be the groundwork for it. But um we were really happy to see that um over the course of a of a years, you know, while we were doing these films that I think they were viewed more than 100,000 times and >> Wow. >> No, actually no, it's one 1.4 million times >> and 100,000 100,000 subscribers. >> Wow. >> And that's having an effect. >> So >> it does prove prove that this stuff a is engaging. >> Yeah. >> And it does work. it, you know, but we did some research, you know, back on in the day when I first um when when the RSA started to get popular, I was I was skeptical because I was thinking, why why is this working? Um, and so we we got approached by um a uh a psychology professor called Professor Richard Weisman and he phoned us up one day and um we ended up doing a some research about about these things. So he ran a a test a talking head versus a talking head video versus an animation. So we set up an experiment and it ended up being that you know our our work few thankfully ended up being more sharable, more entertaining and more memorable. You know these are the three u uh components that we that we tested for. Um I've got on a I can send you a link we've got actually uh we've got the I did a little case study video and Richard talks about this. So I can send you the the actual research. Um, but yeah, we were, we are keen on, you know, we don't, it's not just a style thing. We want to make sure this stuff actually works and >> actually it's effective. Yeah. >> Huh. Wow, that's really interesting. >> I can I can give you all those links definitely. >> Yeah, we can put them in the show notes for sure. There might be uh some fans here that will definitely want to see the educational ones. We'll dig up uh it would be fun. Um I'll have to reach out to you separately and like it would be fun to see the first one if it's on YouTube and then >> Oh yeah, >> you like pick sort of something in the middle and something now and sort of see the progression. >> That would be interesting to see >> the documentary I'm making because I'm interested because I was interested in just how things start and then how things end because we don't make we don't make RSA films anymore. They kind of stop they stop doing them. But if you look at the last one I did compared to like the first one, you they're just worlds apart. >> Yeah, I bet. >> Um, so I can give you the first one and give you the last one. >> Yeah, we can then people can when they're done listening here, they can go watch those videos and do do the comparison because they're only a couple minutes long, right? So >> you can see them both. >> Uh, well, they got shorter actually. I think um the first ones are actually 10 minutes and then they they kind of cut them down and called them mini mates instead of animates. Um, and they kind of ended up being 5 minutes long. >> Okay. >> Um, >> okay. >> People's attention spans got got less. >> It's ironic though, isn't it? Everyone's like listening to podcasts for over an hour. >> Yeah. >> I think that what I'm learning is YouTube especially, people put it on in the background and go, you know, wash the dishes or something like that and let it run in the background. So, >> yeah, >> someone's probably doing that right now with us. >> Uh, are we going out live at the moment then? No, we're just uh this is all recording. We'll it'll be released later. Yeah. >> Yeah. You're going to chop it up a bit. >> Oh, I don't when I in all these the only time I've cut these is when someone sneezes or coughs or something >> or says something wrong and said, "Oh, I I need to do that again." >> Otherwise, it's just pretty much we turn on the mic in the camera and we roll and we just let it be what it is. This community is, you know, they love all of it. So, we give them We don't need a lot of editing, which is great, right? >> Makes my life easier. It certainly does. >> So, typically in these podcasts, we talk about um uh tools that you like. So, you mentioned one already, which is that whiteboard paint, which we'll I'm going to research that and put a link in. >> Um are there any favorite uh like whiteboard markers that you used? Are there a brand that you like and uh any other tools that you think might be interesting for people? Yeah. So, when I did the RS Animates, um, do you have a do you have a company called Staples in America? >> Yes. Yeah. It's a office supply company. >> Mhm. >> Office Supply Company. So, I used to go to Staples and they used to do black markers and red markers like in a 12-pack or a 10 pack or something like that. >> Their own brand, right? Their house brand. >> Yeah. Their own brand. And that's all I used. Why I like them was they had um when they were new, they had a really thin chiseled bit of the chisel n >> which you could get really fine stuff going on. Obviously, they spllay out over time. >> Yeah. >> And and it's interesting when I first started um because the camera was over my shoulder and it wasn't a particularly high resolution camera when we started um couldn't pick up a lot. We use red and black because they were pic picked up on the camera. >> Clear. And when you look at all the people that were copying the RSA animates, they would be red and black, right? >> It wasn't a style a style choice. It was just literally because they were the things that showed up on camera >> limitation. Um, but it's interesting how it kind of permeates in into the the kind of methodology that it ends up being a that's the style and it was well that was only because we could none of the the greens and the blues didn't show up. >> Um, so yeah, the Staples markers, the Staples whiteboards were great. >> Um, >> that's a that's a surprising one. I wouldn't have guessed that, but that's pretty interesting. >> Yeah, they weren't any f they're not fancy at all. They were just like >> I'm a big fan of office supply stuff. I could buy them in bulk. I think that was the thing. And um they would run they would run out pretty quickly, you know, because I would be not like the usual whiteboard. Uh some of these pens probably last years in some people's offices, but with me like a couple it'd be like I would get a new box for every anime I I did. >> Wow. Okay. Staples. Staples. Nice. >> I don't know. They they I don't know if they they kind of gone bust in this country, I think. Um so I think you could probably get them in in America. If you want to go old school and make some old school RSA animes, go down to Staples and get the red and black. >> I'm going to go take a look now. >> Um some of the other obviously uh we've gone digital, so I I just draw in Photoshop. >> I love you mentioned Cintiq. Cintiq. A few a few people. >> Yeah, I've got a Cintiq. Um, I've got a 16 in and a I've got a little travel one 13 in that I sometimes use. >> And for those who are there's a lot of people on here that are more iPad people. They may not have experience. Catique is basically a it's a monitor that you can draw on with a dedicated pen that's got >> it's like an iPad without the computer in it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. But the the Waycom people that make the Cintiques uh the pressure sensitivity is really quite good. >> Yeah. Yeah, >> I never I never quite I had an iPad, but I never could quite get I could never bridge the gap. >> I'm I like Photoshop. I know the way I know my way. I'm an old fart, so I know my way around Photoshop. >> I could never system. >> Uh well, I've got I only use like one one thing really in Photoshop. It's like if I do work, it's pretty much drawing with a a black marker pen >> basically. Uh, you know, it's a Photoshop brush, but I've made it so it feels like a and it's got the pressure sensitivity and it feels like a pen for me. >> Interesting. >> I don't tend to use all the fancy stuff and cross-hatchy brushes and, you know, I just like black pen. There you go. Draw. >> Keep it simple. >> It's old school. >> Yeah, exactly. I think, you know, when it comes down to it and you're under pressure, having those solid things uh can often be a huge benefit. Um, so do you you mentioned sketchbooks. Uh, do you are there any sketchbooks? Do you carry a sketchbook around and do doodles and such like that or >> when you're done with you kind of leave it leave it behind and you just, you know, you'd rather have a tea and read a book? I don't know. >> My sketchbooks are actually I I always am impressed by people that can do really nice sketchbooks, you know, and they're kind of works of art in themselves, whereas mine is a utility device. Yeah, I think I'm like you in that way. Yeah. >> How do I get my thinking down so that it's recorded, it's scratchy, it's, you know, I I Yeah, it's I they're they're the they're the next step to get me to the the level and then I'll take it into some other medium. I They're not the thing itself. They're just the the delivery of of my ideas to to some plane where I can remember them. >> Um, you know, but you know, you can go on Instagram and Pinterest, can't you? see these beautifully rendered things. I mean, if you look at someone like Peter Durand, you know, his sketch notes are just >> really bloody neat and you think, >> I haven't got time. I'm I literally haven't got time for that. >> I've got time for Peter's work, but I haven't got time to do that myself. I'm not >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. >> Yeah. I think of somebody like Danny Gregory, if you've seen his work, um his stuff is really amazing. And I think this interesting story about I should see if I can get Danny Gregory on. He started quite late. I think he had was uh going he was under stress or something and he started drawing as a way to relax himself or something like that and now his whole business is teaching people how to how to draw. So >> that's cooling guy. >> Um that reminds me of the Kurt Vonica book right Blackbeard Blue Beard. You read Have you read Blue Beard by Kurt Von? >> I've read Vonaga but not not that one. >> There's a character in it called Dan Gregory. Um, and he's an he's an illustrator. And I think he's based on um >> who's the guy that used to do all the kind of uh uh covers for the the kind of Americana, you know, kids in getting haircuts and >> Oh, that was um I was just uh thinking about who you're talking about. Rockwell. Norman Rockwell. >> Norman Rockwell. So Dan Gregory was based on Norman Rockwell. But I think it's quite nice. I I I find quite funny that you're talking about Daniel Gregory as a as an artist >> as an actual >> story. Yeah, >> it's not real. >> Interesting. >> So, yeah, Cinti Sketchbooks. So, I use Moles skins and I actually I like Lect. Lect. >> Yeah, that's a German a German brand of competitor to Moleskin. I like those two. >> Yeah, I like I like the kind of little wallety thing in the back. And um but yeah, I really I quite like just copy paper sometimes. Just sheets of copy paper just >> not very pretentious at all. Yeah. >> No, not at all. Um >> that's a funny story. When I started teaching workshops, I had this idea that I had to give away fancy moles skins and pens and and it quickly became clear that people were very intimidated if they didn't know how to draw by these fancy tools. So, I almost immediately switched to a I would buy a ream of uh printer paper and a box of Flare black pens. That was it. And I would pass them out. They were cheap. The great thing about printer paper is if you don't like it, you crumple it up and recycle it and take another sheet. It cost you, you know, a fraction of a cent, right? So, there was no no pressure to make anything beautiful with copy paper. I used to have a little sign on my desk, Mike, that said, um, I will not be afraid to make bad art. >> Um, because I think that in a way if you have, you know, sometimes these tools, as you say, they they inhibit your thinking. >> Yeah. >> If you're too precious about them and you don't want to make your precious little sketchbook rubbish with your crappy drawing, >> Yeah. imperfect, then you don't you tend to be petrified by it and don't do it. Whereas if it, you know, I keep all my crappy little sketches because um I think they're just a nice sort of imprint of my brain over time, you know. >> Mhm. >> And sometimes there's things in there I think, "Oh, that was a good idea. I forgot about that." >> Yeah, I do the same. So, one of the things I mentioned is I'm a blueco collar guy. Grew up that way. Everything I need to have a practical angle. So, one of the things I do in the podcast is ask guests to think about what are three things that you would encourage somebody with if they were sort of stuck or they just need some inspiration. They could be practical things, it could be mindset things, but just uh three three tips that you could give them. What would that be? Um I the way that I visually think through ideas sometimes or problems or try and pl solve problems is I very much um I think I call it v thinking visual German >> and because the German language is constructed with a lot of compound words right so >> right >> um they just tend to like string them along until it's a 40letter word that It's, you know, it means the same thing. It's like they strap, they bootstrap them together. >> Yeah. >> And I think that um if you do that in a visual way with concepts, it often helps you get around um problems, right? You know, if you think about having a I don't know, a photocopier and a double decker bus for example, you know, put those two together. What what are what what does that look like? And what what problem is it solving? you know, >> yeah, >> you can draw this kind of weird machine. It's a it's a bus that copies things or I don't know, whatever. So, you know, when you're applying these in in kind of visual thinking terms or in storytelling terms, a they're memorable because they're weird. >> Mhm. >> Uh but they also help you start to think about the connections between things and then the reasoning why why you've done that, you know. So I love I love visual German in a way of just put ju just position is good and putting stuff together just to see what happens. Putting one thing one thing near another and watching what the the chemical reaction is. >> I like that. >> Um so that's that's one visual German. Um I think what a lot of people pro procrastinate and so half of the challenge is just draw something. >> Yeah. >> Right. Even if it's write a title or um do a circle and then write something in it and then mind map it or do some just break break the seal of the paper or break the seal of the whiteboard or just just make your mark is the other thing I would suggest to do >> because I think there's some psychological studies that say that um procrastination can only we this sounds really obvious like procrastination can only be beat by doing something. So if you just take the step to do it, then you win, right? >> Yeah. >> You end up like, "Oh, I've done it. Oh, what was I procrastinating about?" So there's that. So in a visual way, just don't procrastinate. Just draw. Just do just draw, write, create, >> do something. Yeah. Just get moving. >> Do do something. >> Yeah. And let's have a think what the other thing is. Um I'm not one of those people that, you know, it's like learn to draw and all that nonsense. Yeah. Okay, fine. that's a facility and if you want to do that, go for it and there are courses and things to do. Um I so I would just not be too precious about it. So >> find solutions that work for you. >> I'm a I'm a I I love collage. I'm a collage. I love making collage because it's it >> I I my whole visual thinking career including the RS animates are literally collages and I think life's a collage. We have a collage of experiences that we we manifest which creates our life. So um like putting one thing against another is collage, right? It's justosition. So don't be too precious with with stuff. Um find what works for you. Don't procrastinate about it and just just just do it. So, um, there are solutions out there. If you just draw matchic people, you know, draw boxes, whatever it is to get your ideas down, something will happen over time. Look, you'll look at my early RSA anime films, and they're they're really, really ropey >> because I didn't know what I was doing. >> I was learning on the fly. If you look at the last one, and we can put the links in in the show notes, you'll see the difference. It's it's miles apart. And I think that for people listening to this, just don't worry about that. Don't worry about being perfect. Just do it and you'll get better and you'll find a way that becomes you. Like you said to me precool, Mike, you said, "Oh, you've definitely got a style." >> Oh, yeah. >> Which is which is interesting for me because I never think I do have a style, but that style has only happened over me just doing stuff wrong. >> Practicing. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, I can't remember what those three things were there. So, visual German. >> Uh, visual German. Um, no, just do it. Don't procrastinate and find a way. >> So, don't worry too much about how you do it. >> Great. >> They're quite practical, are they? >> Yeah. >> They're not really arty. Should be more arty than that. >> They can apply in any way, right? >> Yeah. And that you don't have to be a visual thinker to do that, right? >> No. If you're writing a book, you can do. >> Excellent. Well, thank you so much for making time for us. What is the best place if someone wants to see your work or visit your company, where should they go? >> Uh website is first of all call um www.wecognitive.com. >> Okay. Um, I have a podcast called The Visual Fleer, which um, I'm starting to talk to all of the people that I've animated the RSA films. So, I've interviewed all those guys, so you'll be able to hear from the horse's mouth about stuff there. Um, but, uh, we also have, um, if you want to see my collage work, I've got an Instagram. I could put that in the show. >> Yeah, we can get that for sure. >> Um, yeah. So most mostly through our um website and YouTube. >> Cool. >> And you know, you'll be seeing you're seeing the the really talented people that work at Cognitive, not just my work. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Well, and then we'll look forward to the documentary that you're working on. So, we'll have to you have to let me know when that comes out. We'll share that with people so they can watch. >> Yeah. So, the the podcast is actually I'm building the documentary Peace Mill. So, I'm in I'm putting it out as podcast in a way to organize my thinking >> rather than trying to eat the elephant all at once at the end, >> bits at a time, and then at the end, you kind of make sense of it all and think it just like the process, right? Find the story >> and reveal it. >> Exactly. I'm I'm uh Yeah. doing it uh organically. >> Cool. Well, that's just the that's the way that works for you, so it makes sense to me. Cool. Well, thanks so much for all the amazing inspiration that you've given the world in doing your animation and now you're building a company and team and they're doing the same. That's a pretty cool thing. So, thanks for doing that for us. I appreciate you and you definitely have a style. I think people will back me up on that one. Uh, and hopefully we can maybe meet up in the UK when I'm when I'm over. So, >> yeah, I'll definitely make time to come up to Birmingham and uh that sounds like a whole lot of fun. >> Sounds good. Well, thanks everyone. Everyone who's watching or listening, that's another episode. Till the next one. Talk to you soon. >> The Sketchnote Army podcast was created by me, Mike Grody, and brought to you by Roadesign Studios. It's produced and edited by Alec Bianis of AMP Creative Studios. The theme music was created by John Sheeter. To support the creation of this show, I invite you to buy one of my books, The Sketchnote Handbook or The Sketchnote Workbook. You can find the books on Amazon or go to peachpit.com and use the code roy for 40% off. Please share this podcast with other visual thinking friends and be sure to leave a nice rating on iTunes or your favorite podcast listening app so others can find the show. [Music], YouTube Video Yc405VSLTzg, YouTube, 01kabw93275kktr3zv50980j3s.