YouTube Video lwvdqRsQF-c  ## Metadata - Author: [[YouTube]] - Full Title: YouTube Video lwvdqRsQF-c - Category: #articles - Document Tags: [[biblical]] [[comparative]] [[misinformation]] - Summary: YouTube Video lwvdqRsQF-c - URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwvdqRsQF-c Somebody listening to this is going to be like, "Dan, you moron." Got him. We got him everybody. He didn't know which one it was. >> Hey everybody, I'm Dan Mlen. >> And I'm Dan Beecher. You're listening to the data overdogma podcast where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion and we combat the spread of misinformation about the same. How are things today, Dan? It's been a long day for me. I uh I had some uh some family emergencies of the pet variety that were harrowing. It's been a harrowing day, but I'm uh I'm >> all everything copathetic. Everything's okay. Uh, we've got we've got a cat with significantly less hair now because the vet had to shave her and all sorts of crazy stuff. Anywh who? >> All right. >> Other than that, things are great. So, let's dive into some Bible stuff, shall we? >> Let's do it. >> Okay. So, today on the show, we are going to uh we're going to first have a is it canon? We're going to talk about a book that is canon, I understand, >> and an X-Man. Yes, it is. >> Just putting it out there. Just putting it out there. >> Oh, okay. That there you go. Uh so we'll get to Jubilees and then uh in the second half of the show, we'll be we'll be asking ourselves uh we'll be taking issue with a a bunch of correlations. We're going to correlate and see if it means everything. Yes. >> And something and anything. >> Probably not. >> Probably not. But first, is it canon? All right. So, we said it. We're going we're getting into jubilees uh here. And that uh I the word jubilee is interesting. I myself attended >> the uh the diamond jubilee of her highness uh the the the queen of England. >> Ah yes back in her days. >> Uh I didn't attend it. I sat on the banks of the tempames and watched as the giant flotilla floated by, which sounds super exciting. The largest flotilla that has ever floated the temps. It sounds very exciting until you realize it's just boats going slowly past you. One of which contained the queen. Yes. Who who waved in my direction. >> Well, I hear she's good at waving. She was good at waving. >> Not as good anymore. Um and and the other jubilee that I know of is that tw this year, the year of our Lord 2025 is a jubilee year for the Catholics. The uh the Pope before he died declared this year to be a Jubilee year >> indeed. So uh I don't know what that means, but what I do know is there was also a book that was in that was not in my Bible called Jubilees. and I don't know uh anything about it. >> Well, it is uh it is generally considered a pseudopraphical text. It is non-cononical for the overwhelming majority of uh Christianity as well as Judaism. There is a uh a movement a Jewish movement that is associated with the Christian movement that has it in the canon that also has it in the cannon. So, okay. Um the Ethiopian Orthodox Toako Church has Jubilees in the cannon. In fact, their inclusion of the book of Jubilees in the cannon is the only reason we can claim to have a full copy of the book of Jubilees because it was only preserved in GZ uh manuscripts uh for a long long time until we discovered the Dead Sea Scrolls. And I think there's there there's a little bit of a Latin translation from like the fifth century, but the >> last time so the last time we met the uh the the Ethiopian Orthodox Toaho people uh church, we were talking about first Enoch and how they include that also in their canon. Is that correct? >> Yes. Yes. And these and the and this is closely related. In fact, Jubilees is probably basing some of its text on first Enoch. Okay. >> Uh, and so these are both texts that were written in the Henistic period. Most scholars would say Jubilees was probably written somewhere between 160 to 150 uh BCE. >> Okay. >> So, this is uh just after the Makabian period. This is during the the Hasminian kingdom. And it was probably originally written in Hebrew and then uh probably translated into Syriak somewhere along the way. also translated from Hebrew Hebrew into Greek and then from Greek into Latin and into GZ because Jubilees was probably brought down to the kingdom of of Oxum, modernday Ethiopia by folks who had copies of the Septuagent. So the Greek translation of the Jewish scriptures including first Enoch and Jubilees. Uh and then I think the oldest existing GZ or Ethiopic manuscript of Jubilees is like from the 14th century but there are like 50 or so manuscripts of Jubilees preserved in Gaz and based on the manuscripts of Jubilees that were discovered at Kuman among the Dead Sea Scrolls. There are uh more than a dozen different manuscripts of Jubilees, which puts it alongside First Enoch, outnumbering the number of manuscripts of every other book of the Bible except for Genesis, Exodus, Deuteronomy, Isaiah, and Psalms. >> Wow. >> So, Jubilees and First Enoch were were quite influential. >> Yeah. So the what you're if I'm understanding you, let me just uh say it in my own way just to make sure I'm I'm getting it. But like what if there are if there were that many copies of that in the Dead Sea Scrolls in and among the Dead Sea Scrolls and at least the people who were keeping those records near the Dead Sea low those many years ago anciently >> clearly it must have been very important. It must have been as important to them as as you say those other books as Genesis, Exodus, or you know, whatever ones you listed. >> Yeah, they they definitely weren't the core of what was considered scripture for Judaism, but they seem to have been even more influential than books like Ezekiel and Daniel uh and uh Numbers and Joshua and stuff like that. So, so it was it was >> influential. If we take the number of manuscripts preserved among the Dead Sea Scrolls as in as a a proxy for how important the text was. But we also see its influence on later uh rabbitic literature. We even see some stuff in the New Testament that seems to be reflecting or not necessarily saying, "Hey, here's something I took from Jubilees, but references to traditions that look at those traditions in ways they are presented in Jubilees and not really anywhere else." Okay? So, so indicating that they're familiar with and they are influenced by the tradition as preserved in Jubilees. But in short, Jubilees is is basically a rewriting of the book of Genesis and a little bit of Exodus. >> Oh, okay. >> The idea is this. Moses is on Sinai in Exodus 24. God's like, "Hey, I'm going to give you these laws, >> but once I you all get to the promised land, everybody's going to break all the laws. I'm going to send them away into exile. I'm going to destroy the temple. Then I'm going to bring them back. Then I'm going to rebuild the temple. and then everything's going to be copathetic from then on out. Everything's going to be grand. And Moses is like, "What if you didn't do that?" And God was like, "No, I'm still going to do that." And and then God is like, "Here's my angel and he's going to give you all the deets." And and God bounces. And so the angel of the presence and this is uh the Malik Adoni, the messenger of of uh Adoni that is introduced in Exodus 23, the chapter 4, where God says, "I'm sending an angel before you to guard you along the way. Uh my name is in him." And this angel's like, "Hey, Moses. Anyway, here's the deal." And retells the entire book of Genesis. >> Wow. >> Not verse for verse, but like story for story. and an awful lot of it is um is condensed, but it's all being retold in a way that would be more meaningful for an educated Jewish person in the middle of the 2nd century BC. >> Okay. >> So, it's kind of like I there are what's going on in Jubilees in my opinion is kind of close to what Joseph Smith was trying to do with with uh the his revision of the Bible. uh what like the book of Moses where God's like, "Hey, Moses, so anyway, here's how everything's going to play out for uh this is how everything began. Here's how everything's going to play out." And and you're rewriting the whole book of Genesis and changing an awful lot, but kind of following the same uh trajectory and it's all divided up into Jubilees. So, a Jubilee is 49 years according to the Hebrew Bible. uh you have seven years, that's the seventh year is the Sabbath year, but every seven sets of seven years is the 49th year. That's the Jubilee year. And so basically, we're we're imposing this chronological framework of sets of seven and Jubilees and everything upon the book of Genesis. And so a lot of the chapters begin uh where uh the the angel of the presence is uh speaking to Moses and says so anyway during the fifth year of the fourth week fourth week of this jubilee in the third month in the middle of the month Abram celebrated the festival festival of the first fruits and the wheat harvest and it's kind of a way to say this history is already written it's playing out according according to this uh very regimented chronology, everything important happens on Jubilee years or uh in a way that can be measured against these Jubilee years and and you get updates and you get changes and you get corrections uh and stuff like that. I want to read a couple of examples of uh of some of the things that uh some of the ways they're retelling the story. But first, this is uh the very end of the first chapter. There are two sections to the book of Jubilees. Chapter one is one section and then the other section is chapters 2 through 50. >> Oh, okay. >> And there are only 50 chapters in >> that's not that those are not evenly measured chapters or sections. >> It is. It is definitely back heavy. But um and the first chapter is is just kind of this narrative explaining what's going on where Moses is like what? Why? Who? Okay. And anyway, uh, verse 29 of the first chapter, it's a long verse. Uh the angel of the presence who was going along in front of the Israelite camp took the tablets that told of the divisions of the years from the time the law and the testimony were created for the weeks of their jubilees yearbyear in their full number and their jubilees from the time of the first creation until the time of the new creation when the heavens, the earth, and all their creatures will be renewed like the powers of the sky and like all the creatures of the earth until the time when the temple of the Lord will be created in Jerusalem on Mount Zion. So, um, that's the explanation of what the angel of the presence is about to drop on Moses. Um, and so you have, uh, in chapter 2, you have Adam and Eve. You have this whole creation, and then you have this statement. There were 22 leaders of humanity from Adam until him. And 22 kinds of works were made until the seventh day. So we've got another division into these very symbolic numbers and 22 is symbolic. Uh do do you know have any idea where where 22 might be symbolic? 22 and 24 both pop up a number of times uh in early Judaism. >> I I know the significance of 67 but I don't know the other ones. >> No, you don't. No, but he does. Um >> I'm the only one. >> Um 22 and 24 are significant. 22 letters in the Hebrew alphabet, 24 letters in the Greek alphabet. And so once you get into the first century CE, you have texts and folks, people like Josephus and other texts that say, "Oh yeah, our our sacred scriptures number 22 or they number 24." That's how many books are in there because that is symbolic. And you know, if you like Greek, then you go with 24. If you prefer Hebrew, then you go with 22. So that that's what's going on with these uh these symbolic numbers. And there's an interesting tradition that has its origin in the book of Jubilees. That's um might surprise some people. So I've made videos before where I've said, "Hey, the first lie in the Bible is not the serpent talking to Eve. It actually comes before that. Genesis 21:17 where God tells Adam, on the day you eat of the fruit of the tree, of the knowledge of good and evil, you will certainly die." he doesn't die. What's going on there? >> Right? >> One of the responses to this, there are two main responses. One is to say, well, he didn't mean die. He meant die as in not die. Um, the other response is to say, >> well, a day to the Lord is a thousand years, right? And this is based on uh there's a passage and I I always screw it up. I don't know why. It's either Psalms or Proverbs where it says the um the a day is like a thousand or a thousand years are like a day to the Lord and uh or like a watch in the night which would be like three or four hours >> and and I've I've always found that a rather silly argument, but it originates in the book of Jubilees. So Jubilees chapter 4, we're getting to the end of the story of Adam. He was the first to be buried in the ground. And then verse 30, he lacked 70 years from 1,000 years because 1,000 years are one day in the testimony of heaven. For this reason, it was written regarding the tree of knowledge, on the day that you eat from it, you will die. Therefore, he did not complete the years of this day because he died during it. >> Okay. The book of Jubilees. >> We've got we've got the the apologetic built in. I like >> Yes. one of one of the first apologists >> going through and rewriting the text and smoothing out the problems and being like, "You thought that was a that was a contradiction, didn't you? Yeah, we got you." Um, and and so this is doing some it's very similar to Samuel and Kings and then Chronicles where Chronicles is retelling a lot of the same stuff but altering it and fixing it and and like, "Wait a minute, we got to have our our Levites here. Okay, drop some Levites in. we'll throw some Levites over there. We'll sprinkle some Levites on the on the ark. Um, and in Jubilees, they're they're doing a very similar thing, retelling the book of Genesis. And so, in a lot of ways, it is kind of like one of the first commentaries on the Bible, >> right? >> Because it is it's basically telling us what was important to them at the time and how they wanted to think in about it. You know, we we could do the same thing today. If someone were to rewrite the book of Genesis and somebody was like, "Hey, man, go nuts. You have all the authority you need, just do what you need to do to make it work for you." And they would be like, "Oh, okay. I'm going to put some uh you know, more angels over here and do this, that, and the other thing." It would it would be the exact same thing. And then uh there something that is very important here. Remember, this is being written probably by a rather well-educated uh Jewish individual. They also have a concern for calendars. >> Uhhuh. >> And they say in chapter 6 uh here the uh the angel of presence is talking to Moses and says, "Now you command the Israelites to keep the years in this number 364 days. Then the year will be complete and it will not disturb its time from its days or from its festivals because everything will happen in harmony with their testimony. They will neither omit a day nor disturb a festival. So, we're we're getting >> pretty close. >> Pretty close. We're getting close. >> Pretty darn close. >> Yeah. We're moving away from a luna solar calendar to a strictly solar calendar, >> right? >> 364 days not exactly um getting us all the way there. And they >> It'll work for a while. It'll work for a good long while. >> There's going to be some drift. >> Um but, you know, we're not going to be alive to see it, so why do we care? Um, so, uh, and and this is >> wasn't this holiday in in September? >> This began as a harvest festival. >> This was supposed to be this was supposed to be a winter thing. >> Yeah. And now it's a planting festival. Um, which which is why, you know, people are like, well, the solstice was on December 25th. It's not on December 25th. >> It was at one point and uh and then and then we had that Tokyo drift. Um, and uh, they divide it into four quarters of 13 weeks each. And they use I want to say they use like a Sabbath trick to to resolve the um, >> this one weird trick. >> Yeah. The the angel of the presence hates this one weird trick. Um, so uh, the calendar is a big part of this. Festivals are a big part of it. the book of Jubilees is going along saying then Abraham celebrated the you know uh shàuote and the festival of boos and stuff like that. I don't think that's anywhere in Genesis. That's a it's a much later thing. Um but here's an example of uh one of the ways that a story is being retold in this because uh it's 50 chapters. The book of Genesis itself is 50 chapters. So, if it were an exact retelling, it would just be Genesis 1 through the end of Genesis 50. Uh, but it's not. It's shortening things. So, this is Genesis 19. The entire chapter of Genesis 19 is five verses and um and Genesis 19 is the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. So, okay, this is what the book of Jubilees, how it recounts uh the story of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah during this month. Remember, we're dividing everything into into months and and weeks of years and stuff. During this month, the Lord executed the judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah, Zeboim, and all the environ environs of the Jordan. He burned them with fire and brimstone, and annihilated them until the present, in accord with what I have now told you about all their actions, that they were depraved and very sinful, that they would defile themselves, commit sexual sins in their flesh, and do what was impure upon the earth. The Lord will execute judgment in the same way in the places where people commit the same s sort of impure actions as Sodom, just like the judgment on Sodom. But we will >> I don't know, man. I've been to Vegas. It's uh I don't think that's >> You're a fan from what I from what I hear, too. Um I don't think that's that is right. But we went about and remember this is uh still the voice of the angel of the presence to Moses. We went about rescuing Lot because the Lord remembered Abraham. So he brought him out from the overthrow of Sodom. He and his daughters committed a sin on the earth that had not occurred on the earth from the time of Adam until his time because the man had sex with his daughter. >> Yes. Here it has been commanded and engraved on the heavenly tablets tablets regarding all his descendants that he is to remove them, uproot them, execute judgment on them like the judgment of Sodom and not to leave him any human descendants on the earth on the day of judgment, which is rough. >> Yeah. Because when we look in Genesis 19, uh the offspring of the incestuous pairing of of Lot and his daughters, uh is are the people of Moab and Ammon. >> Okay. So, so we we've got that's a little problematic, but um >> but that that's it. That's how the entire chapter of Genesis 19 is is retold. >> So, it is Yeah. So, it's condensing some stuff. And then, you know, when it comes to the festival of tabernacles, that gets >> which is my personal favorite. I I love that festival >> that gets like more than twice as many verses. >> So, there's there's an awful lot about the the things that the the author of Jubilees chooses to dwell on are sometimes a little unexpected, unusual. They're not the kinds of things that people today uh would choose to dwell on. I mean, if if you had a a lot of uh the megaurch pastors and the and the Tik Tok pastors of today doing this, we would probably have 20 chapters on Sodom and Gomorrah. Yeah. Um and the festival of tabernacles wouldn't even be in there, but it probably shouldn't be anyway because it's it's not in Genesis. But the the sto the the last few chapters cover the time in Egypt and the angel of the presence is like reminding Moses what Moses just did. Um and then getting up to the point where the the angel of the presence is like >> just to recap uh your story >> and uh that's uh that brings us to right now >> when I I am talking to you on the mountain. >> Yeah. So, I wanted to circle back to something because at the very beginning of this segment, you mentioned you called this uh book pseudopagraphical. And I guess what I'm wondering is is it meant to be that it is are we meant to believe that Moses wrote this book? >> Well, we're meant to believe that the angel of the presence dictated this book to Moses. Okay? >> So, Moses wrote down what was dictated to him in in the angel's voice. That's why the passages are like, "So that's why we uh" and and this is the two angels that are accompany God in Genesis 18 and and travel on to Sodom in Genesis 19. That's when we helped Lot out, but then God was like, "Destroy all of his descendants." Um, >> so that's it's the angel of the presence dictating the text to uh Moses and Moses just furiously writing everything down. >> Slow down. Slow down, man. Come on. >> Even though Moses Moses is probably well the text represents him as as literate but um historically speaking if there were a historical Moses uh he would have spoken probably I don't know let's say Russian. Um so I mean good as good enough an answer as as any other. So sure Egyptian. Um but uh we have but this angel of the presence is the one that's delivering the laws to Moses. >> Yeah. >> And so you know you go to uh Galatians written by Paul. Galatians 3 19 says why then was the law given? It was added because of the transgressions until the arrival of the descendant to whom the promise had been made. It was administered through angels by an intermediary which >> okay >> seems like it's referencing this tradition of an angel mediating between God and Moses who then turns around and gives the law to the people. >> Right? So this is one of the indications that the book of Jubilees was was probably influential enough to be reflected in in some New Testament passages and and there are a handful of other places where uh where scholars think that the influence is is coming through. And we do have evidence that uh early Christians knew of the book of Jubilees. uh the writings of Epipanius, Justin Martyr, origin Diodoris of Tarsus, uh Isidoria of Alexandria, Isidoria of Seville, uh Uticius of Alexandria, uh a number of of early Christians make reference to Jubilees. They probably had either Greek copies or maybe Syriak copies or Latin copies. uh before uh it just being left out of the cannon. It it was a text nong grata uh and so uh probably faded away. Uh and >> so so I'm sorry just the idea is that those people who referenced it pro the theories that they probably were they were referencing it as scripture like in in the same way. No. Oh, okay. No, no, just they they were just um witnessing to the existence of the text, not necessarily saying this, we got scripture here, people. Um I I would have to look into those texts to see exactly how they're representing it. Like first Enoch definitely there were people who are referencing it as scripture. The New Testament references it as prophecy. Jubilees. Uh I think the the evidence is is not nearly uh so strong, but these are folks who uh who are referencing it as a text that was in circulation. >> Okay. >> Um and and based on comparison of the I can't I think I said this already, but based on comparison with the Hebrew manuscripts that were discovered at Kuman, the Gaz versions are pretty faithfully translated. So um so the the the Ethiopic versions that exist have not significantly changed much. Uh it pretty closely follows the ancient versions that we have from uh from among the Dead Sea Scrolls. So >> it's a fascinating book. I think it's it's interesting to see how the interpretive lenses that uh educated Jewish writers in the middle of the 2n century BCE are how they're interpreting what's going on in Genesis, what they don't like. Like they they edit out a lot of the stuff where God is like motivating people to lie and stuff like that. Some of that gets edited out. Uh the stuff where um where either >> apologetics by the way. >> Yeah. So, so the author of Jubilees, yeah, is is one of the first apologists wants to present this as something that is not going to rub the Jewish intelligencia the wrong way, but is going to make this sound like inspired scripture, make it a little easier for them to um to game the algorithm so they can make that scratch off of more people seeing their videos talking about talking about how awesome the book of Genesis is uh so a fascinating text. I don't think it's it it's as influential as the book of First Enoch. It passes along some of the traditions of First Enoch. uh but it was an influential text in some ways and and as we've seen it is the origin of one of the apologetic arguments against understanding God's statement in uh Genesis 2:17 as a lie or at the very least something that doesn't actually come to pass that God said would come to pass uh which I think makes it um fascinating uh uh in its own right. But there's uh the Hera commentary series. That's where you're going to find the best discussion of Jubilees. There's two volumes on Jubilees. And they took the translation uh that James Vanderam did for that commentary series and they published it as a standalone translation. So if you would like a really really good translation of Jubilees, it's like 17 or 18 bucks to get the a paperback version of the of the Hera translation. So, don't go uh chasing down the uh the Tik Tok shop folks who are putting the uh this is this is the real Ethiopic Bible with all 88 books. We got them all. Um you know, they'll they'll have a version of Jubilees in there, but it's going to be a public domain translation from 150 years ago. >> Oh, wow. it's it's not going to have the updates that we have from uh the Dead Sea Scrolls and stuff like that and it's not going to be a very good translation. So, if you want a good translation, don't waste your time with with the Ethiopian Bibles that people are selling on on the internet right now. Just go get your Hera translation of >> Jubilees. >> All right, Jubilees sounds fun. Uh let's move on to our next uh segment which is taking issue. Boom. And this this week's uh taking issue, we're going to take issue with a a rather attractive image uh a beautiful uh chart that was built uh a while ago uh called the uh the the cross reference visualization. M >> and this was I think it it was done by a guy named Chris Harrison I think. >> Yes. or uh yes, Chris Harrison. And uh and and basically the what it purported to be was uh imagine a a horizon line essentially a a line in the lower third of the of the image and below it are these lines these just >> so many stack of vertical lines of different lengths. >> Yeah. >> That are descending down from the horizon line. >> And I guess those are the chapters of the Bible. Is that right? Yes. And then uh and then above it are these big beautiful curves and multicolors and it's very pretty and the curves go from one vertical line uh below all up and over to some other vertical line and it's just interconnecting all of these different chapters and what it purports to be if I am to if I understand this correctly >> is a visualization of all the ways that the Bible all all the verses in the Bible that correlate with each other. Yes, it is the Bible cross references chart that uh began as a collaboration between a pastor named Kristoff Romel and Chris Harrison in 2007. They they claimed to have cataloged 63,779 cross references in the Bible. >> Okay. And this is a visualization of those 63,779 cross references. And uh as you mentioned earlier while we were discussing what we were talking about tonight, there was a a very popular >> kind of mimicking version of this chart that is Bible contradictions. >> Yes. >> Um now the handy thing about the Bible contradictions chart is that it actually cataloges all the actual contradictions. Uh Chris Harrison's chart to my knowledge I think somebody has tried to recreate it in an interactive way so you can actually see the verses but in addition to the fact that it does not include all 63,779 cross references it doesn't even tell you what verse it just says Genesis 1 Ezekiel 37 >> right which which means go read both of these full chapters and then >> figure out what we're talking about >> what they have in common >> but I I see this chart or at least the claim 63,779. Uh like this is in my head like that like that song that's uh that I don't even remember the number, but it's 600 something something something. Um you probably know what that's from. >> It's from Rent. >> It's from Rent. I was going to say is it from Rent? Um but I've never seen Rent. Um and you usually see that number included in in this claim. The Bible, 1500 years, 45 authors, three continents, three languages, 63,779 cross references, no contradictions, one message or something like that. That's been shared far and wide and it it drives me nuts because it's >> pretty much entirely wrong. The only thing that is accurate is that it is written in three different languages, Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. Um, but when I first saw that, I had to chase down this chart and see what was going on here because people make it sound like this is such an anomaly that the only plausible explanation is something supernatural. Like this is evidence for the inspiration, the inherency, the univocality, the supernatural origins of the Bible, >> right? >> And it just does doesn't it it just didn't pass the sniff test for me. So I I I chase down the origin of it. And and here's the way Chris Harrison defines a cross reference. >> Okay. >> Cross references are conceptual links between verses connecting locations, people, phrases, etc. found in different parts of the Bible. Great. That however does not tell us who is making these links. >> Right? >> And this is my biggest problem with this. There is nothing that supports the notion that these links are inherent to the text, native to the text, understood and intended by any of the authors and editors. >> These links are often so thin and so ambiguous as to be pretty meaningless. Like the there's a a partial list of these cross references that I found where somebody was like Genesis 1:1 talks about the creation of the heavens and the earth. And so this cross references with every single passage in the Bible that uses a word for create. >> It's like no it doesn't >> or heaven or earth. >> Yeah. That's not that's not indicative of intent >> right >> or cognizance on the part of any of the authors. That is us saying I matched these two. >> Right. Well, and not only that, but like not for nothing, later books had the previous books to reference. They were the authors were familiar with the work going before. So, a reference doesn't mean like, you know, if if the guy who writes Spider-Man 2011 also read Spider-Man 3. >> Yeah. See, he can reference number three. Yeah. >> It doesn't that doesn't prove anything divine happening, >> right? And and that's another part of this. The Bible is is unique in a lot of ways. It is a a a anthology of uh texts for a community that lasted a lot longer than most other communities have lasted. It shouldn't have lasted as long as it has. But because it lasted as long as it did, because the authoritative literature accumulated for as long as it did, and every layer that was added to it had the benefit of looking back at some, if not all of what came before, you have a lot of intentional illusion and paraphrase and even direct quotation of the things that came before. And so it is a uniquely self-referential text but not in a way that is implausibly human curated, >> right? >> Like it the the uniqueness of the circumstances contributes to the uniqueness of the features of the text. Uh and definitely not in a supernatural way, right? But it but it gets even worse for Chris's explanation because in addition to the fact that what this is basically saying is I can create links 63,779 times which says nothing about what the text itself intended. Like I can take Lord of the Rings and Hellboy and the Bible and I bet you I can create thousands of of cross references as well. Look, this we got a reference to mountains over here. We got a reference to mountains over here. Boom. Cross reference roasted the like it it doesn't mean much. But Chris goes on in the uh where he's selling uh versions of this chart says cross references are included in the margins or footnotes of some Bibles. And he and then he says example here and there's a hyperlink to a version of the Bible that has in the margins a bunch of cross references. And I'm like, great. I want to look at the cross references that Chris chose to show us as an example of cross references to see what a prototypical cross reference in the mind of Chris Harrison is. And it is uh the the page that is linked to is Acts chapter 1. >> And the the cross reference that is in the dead center is Acts 1:1 18, which describes the death of Judas. The first cross reference is Matthew 27 3-10 which is the contradictory account of the death of Judas. So when you look at the first cross reference of the example of cross references provided by Chris Harrison, what do you find? A contradiction in the Bible. Um and you know we we've gone over this contradiction before. I think we have. Have we talked about the >> we did the various Judas's exploding in whatever way he's going to explode. >> And and you know we we know that if you need these texts to both be accurate descriptions of a single event, you can force them through the square hole. >> Right? >> But for anybody capable of abstract and critical thought, these very clearly contradict each other. And so I think it's funny to try to use this as evidence of something when your evidence directly refutes and contradicts your claim. >> Yeah. >> And then the the other references are um Matthew 18:7 2614 15 24 Mark 14. And these are references to uh Jesus basically lamenting Judas's um destiny. >> Yeah. >> And so okay, great. You've got Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John all talking about Judas because they're four different tellings of the same story, right? >> So, it's like these >> that's a pretty that's a pretty solid and easy thing to correlate. >> Yeah, that's pretty lowhanging fruit. That's that's an accident of having four different tellings of the same story. Nothing supernatural about anything yet, >> right? And so the fact that when I look at that one verse, I see one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight cross references in the one verse. One of them's a contradiction and the others are just the same story told four different times by the four different authors. If these are your cross references that are supposed to be manifesting the supernatural nature of this book, how dare it have 63,779 cross references. Has any such thing ever existed before? Yeah. This is this is nothing special. >> Yeah. >> Um so I I am and I try to bring this up like you you've seen me on Twitter. I get pretty chippy. Um there >> you have a good time. I have a good time. Um I when when I see this, I usually I I can't pass up the opportunity to correct it. Uh because it's just so silly and it's not evidence of anything. And if you think critically about it for any amount of time at all, you can see that this isn't really evidence of anything. And uh but man, the push back I get when I point out how silly this is. Um for folks who just I I don't know what they're thinking about when when they're looking at this. If I bring this up and show this to them, I I don't know what's going through their head, but certainly not critical thinking. Um which is which is a problem. So, this chart as as pretty as it is. >> Yeah. >> And I got no complaints. The aesthetic is fine. >> Yeah. >> Uh when you look at the the lines across the bottom as well, uh they're also shaded. >> You go from light to darker to darker to lighter to darker to lighter to darker. And and those are the different books of the Bible. So So Genesis is the light one on the left and then you go all the way to the the very light one towards the right. That's Matthew. And so you can you can see the uh yeah the uh the different books of the Bible. So like it's it's a good little visualization of there's a lot of data >> uh in the visualization. >> What's that really long chapter in the middle? >> Uh Psalms 129, I think. Okay. >> Um is that the Gosh, I always forget. Um I'm pretty sure >> I would have guessed it was a psalm. >> Yeah, it is. It has like 150 verses in it. >> Oh my gosh. >> Um, nope. It's not 129. Uh, somebody somebody listening to this is going to be like, "Dan, you moron." >> Got him. >> We got him, everybody. You didn't know which one it was. >> Got you. >> Yeah, I've been got. That is true. Um, it is in the >> It is in the one. >> We don't need to know. It's fine. >> Okay. Okay. Fine. Everyone can look it up on their own. Just go through go through Psalms until you find the one that's too annoyingly long. >> Um, but there something something else that I see when people do this uh when they say, "Oh, here's uh all the cross references." The you know the cross references claim is circulating enough to have a life of its own. When you begin to see supplementary claims like people posting a very similar chart that has only maybe a couple dozen links, >> all these rainbows going across the the horizon line, a bunch of people are sharing a very similar looking one with only a couple dozen lines and they're labeling it cross references in the Quran. M >> and I was like, what? Hey, whoa, whoa, whoa. >> So, they're claim they're claiming like, look, uh, our book has 6,000. >> 63,000. Yeah. Yeah. >> 63,000. And they only got they've only got like 42. So, clearly their book is uh is false and our book is real. >> Yeah. And the the first time I saw this, I was like, that doesn't look right. like the Quran has an awful lot of cross references and and you can even find uh books published on cross references in the Quran. There are a lot of them. Um and so I I did something that the overwhelming majority of the people on the internet don't seem capable of. I saved the image >> and then did a reverse image search. Uh >> oh. For for those of you out there who don't know about this, go to like uh tiney.com or you can even just go to Google images and you plop in the image and it will tell you where this is found on the internet. Tin eye I like because it will tell you can sort them according to date. >> So it will give you the earliest occurrence of this image anywhere on the on the internet. Drop it in there. I took this chart. I dropped it in there and it took me to a website called Adam Lambert full circle moments and firsts. What this is is a timeline of the life of the American Idol singer Adam Lambert with life events and when they like come around again or capitulate or whatever. And so you can z and and the people who say cross references is in the Quran, it's a it's a fuzzy chart. You can't really tell what's going on there. You can't read anything. But if you just, you know, do a reverse image search or you go to that website, you can see that like the events are like American Idol audition, San Francisco, California, July 17th, 2008. And then 2009, Meeting Madonna, Madonna's Home, New York City, New York. May 27th, 2009. Ring of Fire Glam Nation Tour. Ryman Auditorium, Nashville, Tennessee. July 7th, 2010. Somebody found a chart that looked similar but had significantly fewer connections. And we're like, I'm taking this. And then slapped this label on it, ensuring that the image was blurry enough that you couldn't see anything. >> Uhhuh. and just pass this off as the cross references of the Quran. >> And I gotta say the way that I assume mostly American but maybe not just I don't know I've seen Islamophobia all over the world. The way that Christians badmouth the Quran. These are people who of course have never read the Quran. They don't know what's in the Quran. They know what, you know, some very Islamophobic pastor on the internet has told them about the Quran, which is which is all misinformation. >> But it's just so weird to me that like that how, you know, I made a a very fiery post on on Threads a while back. I have zero Threads followers. You guys are welcome to try to follow me on Threads. I don't even know what my Threads handle is. Uh, but I I've did a post and I I made a claim about Christianity and Islam being essentially the same thing. And oh, the people got mad and and you know, okay, fair enough. You you disagree that that with my claim that theologically they're similar. That's fine. But they didn't present theological arguments. They basically like multiple people were like um no because they worship Satan. And I was like really that's that's so like the desire to just just full-on slander Islam with no knowledge just just invective is amazing. And and a lot of them will be outraged at anything remotely similar coming from non-Christian religions. Like have you ever seen people who who are like the Talmud says Jesus is boiling in a pot of feces for eternity? >> It's like well you just said Muslims worship Satan, >> right? like what on what grounds do you say what you're saying is appropriate and what what this 2-year-old text said is is inappropriate? Um, and and I don't know if anyone has noticed, but there has been an increase in uh Islamophobic rhetoric on the part of evangelical Christians online recently because there's been a dis that like there are influencers who are like Islam is the next mountain that we're going to conquer. We and and so there is a an intentional and a a concerted effort to turn everyone's sights on Islam. So there's going to be a lot a lot of Islamophobic crap on the internet. Um but >> push push back against that folks when you see that there's >> and and especially if people are using like Sam Harris post 2011 Islamophobic pseudo scholarship. Um that's that stuff's no good. But you know you have like Ali Beth Stucky coming out and saying literally 99% of the world's terrorism is is rooted in Islam. It's a it's a uniquely and inherently violent religion. It's like you've got more violent passages in the Bible than you do in the Quran. Yeah. And they'll be like, "Well, obviously Jesus, you know, said this, that, and the other." And it's like, "Okay, that doesn't make those passages go away." >> Yeah. >> That is just you renegotiating what you think the Bible is telling you. And guess what? People do the same thing with the Quran, >> right? Which is why >> do you want us to find me messages of peace and love in the Quran because we can find them. >> Yeah, >> they're there. >> Yeah. And and they'll be like, "No, no, they have to interpret it this way." And it's like, well, nobody you you don't think you have to interpret the Bible that way. Uh everybody's going to engage with their texts in in ways that make them meaningful and useful. And unfortunately, there are a lot of societies right now that don't have a lot of political stability, where the state is not considered to be legitimate, where there is a lot of ethnic conflict and stuff like that. And so if people find meaning in the more violent parts of the text and decide they're going to go out and do something desperate in order to try to save their people or their nation or whatever, >> that's going to happen just like it does with >> consolidate control and do and and uh you know and and gain power. That's also >> but I mean it it's so funny to hear all this talk about you know Islam is the terrorist or religion when the majority of terror terrorist acts that happen in the United States are done by Christians. >> Now that's just I mean you know Christians are >> white supremacist too. >> Yeah. Christians are the vast majority here and right now Christianity, you know, evangelical Christianity is getting radicalized in ways that we we've never seen really. Uh but but yeah, I mean if if we're going to judge a religion by what the extremists uh in that religion do, I I don't think Christianity comes out smelling very good. No. No, obviously not. and and all the all the folks who have like crusader armor in their their profile pictures and stuff like that. like you're kind of undermining your own case there by talking about >> Pete had with his crusades cross tattooed on his arm or whatever >> which is like that's the Jerusalem cross and if you go to Jerusalem they're all over the place and and in Jerusalem like it has a very different significance but for Pety Hegsth the uh Fox News um talking head who has almost killed people numerous times because he can't throw an axe accurately and and because he does all this uh goofy frat boy uh Chad stuff. Uh when he has it, >> it's not for the the uses that uh that are old and historical, >> right? >> Um it's for uh right-wing identity politics and and yeah, if if you want to find inspiration for violence in your holy book, >> you can find it. >> Yeah. >> I mean, that's Yeah, we we see it all over the place. Uh and and a lot of Christian nationalists are are trying to do that while also trying to trying to walk this tight rope or thread this needle, if you like, of uh of trying to get biblical authorization for their violence while condemning coronic authorization for for other people's violence. Right. Uh >> frequently frequently uh using their Bible to uh to justify violence against Muslims. >> Yes. >> Who because of their Quranic uh history of violence. So >> no irony there at all. >> It's identity politics all the way down. And the sooner people realize that, the sooner we can actually grow the hell up. Yeah. >> And and move on as as a globe, as as a world. >> Move on from what? Humanity. It feels like this is a this is a thing that we >> feels like we're stuck here for for a bit. >> This is this is where we're at. >> It was Psalms 119, by the way. I was off by 10. So, I had 2/3 of the numbers correct. I just didn't get that second position right. I was >> All right. Well, on that note, now that we are finally come full circle and we know >> just like Adam Lambert would have liked. >> Yeah. Yeah. Praise be he. Uh uh let's close it off. Thanks so much uh for listening everybody. Uh if you would like to become a part of making this show go and show some appreciation for the work that we do, we would love for you to become a patron over on patreon.com/data overdogma. Is that what it is? I think that's what it is. Uh you'll find it. You can search us. It whatever it is. Um thanks so much to Roger Gouty for editing the show. Thanks to all of you for tuning in and we'll talk to you again next week. Bye everybody., YouTube Video lwvdqRsQF-c, YouTube, 01kac4htszxz1fweydqsex5kj2.