Devrelshow Episode 45 - Joey De Villa  🔗 **Source:** [Devrelshow Episode 45 - Joey De Villa](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SPme7zZGRk) Heat. Heat. Hello. Hello, lovely people. Do you do you like the intro song? You look like someone who liked the >> Yeah. Yeah, it's good. It's rocking. I really like it. >> I mean, it always said the moon. I'm always excited to do that show, but like when the intro song is there, just like dancing by myself and like it it pumped me up for the show, which I do not really need, but still uh it's just nice. So, hello everyone. Happy to be back. I think it's been a month that I was not about to uh do any devil show episode. Uh I told you multiple time I started to travel again for work. So, my schedule is a little more uh difficult uh now to do live stream. But I will change how I do that. I was I don't know why I was super strict about doing it like every two weeks like within my schedule. And it happens that I was always traveling the day or the week that like I was supposed to have an episode. Now I'm just going to go like all over the place and still trying to like do it when I'm at home. It's just easier. I could do it on the road, but um I prefer to like just do it at round in the comfort of my you know I wouldn't call this a studio but like with my equipment and everything I think and you have the benefit of having cats once in a while. Tails was with us. He left now Carlos uh is is is walking around. So yeah, um hopefully I'm going to be able to continue to show as often as I used to before I started to travel again. So apologize for that. Maybe you did not miss me, but I miss people. I miss doing that show. Or maybe you did not even recognize me because you know I just started to grow my beard back again. So it's been a while I didn't have a beard. But anyway, it's been a while. Just happy to be here as always. Always fun. And I need to say today I would probably even before it start categorize that episode as that's going to be a fun one because you know my guest is Joey. Joey, how is life? Life is pretty good actually. I can't complain. I am enjoying uh I'm enjoying sunny weather in Tampa, Florida. So, um by Canadian standards, it's summer weather. Uh I'd say I'd say actually it's a little cool today. I would for Tampa, I would say it's about 27 degrees C. That is low low 80s. I I have not yet switched to Fahrenheit yet. I've been here I've been here a dozen years and I have not yet switched to Fahrenheit. But >> I mean with all respect for American, I don't think Fahrenheit makes sense. Uh and obviously I use Celsius. So like I understand Celsius. So but I'm surprised though. I thought that after like more than 10 years you would have like switched. But at the same time you live in Canada for for for way longer than that. >> Way long. Yeah. For way longer. So I'm enjoying I'm enjoying some sunny weather. I live in a nice I I live in a nice neighborhood. I've landed a new job. This is a particularly um interesting and busy week for me because it's it's Tampa Bay Tech Week. So, uh there are a lot of there are a lot of mini conferences happening all over the place. And last night uh we were on we were on a boat that went around the harbor in Tampa for dinner and uh just meeting up with the local techies and some investors um people on the money side of technology who I don't always see all the time. I tend to talk to developers more than uh more than people on the money side but I but you know you end up doing that anyways. And then uh on Saturday we're flying down to Austin to enjoy some bourbon and some barbecue. And also I'm going to be speaking at the Ark of AI conference where I will be talking about an interesting topic that does touch on Devril or uh those those of you in Devril who do who write documentation as well. I'm talking about writing documentation that AI will also understand because that you need to take a slightly different approach. I like that. I like that. Uh damn. I'm now I'm sad that I'm won't be able to like I won't be there and won't be able to listen to the talk because I gave talk once in a while about like creating proper developer documentation and now like I need to change a little bit like how I'm talking about those like there's a lot of like best practices that kind of like keep being the same because you still like need to have your docs for the users but as you said now you need to think about like LLMs that will train in your documentation and your data. So I like that and if you are going to that conference if you did not have the chance to see Joey on stage you have to that that's a whole experience in itself uh see Joey speaking because I and it is coming exactly you don't only just see Joey speaking if you've been at a conference where Joey is like for me let's say I go to the conference usually people see me because I'm really loud I take a lot of space I'm an extrovert I talk to a lot of people so usually when we are at the same conference conference, we had the chance to meet when you're at the same conference of Joey, you have the chance to hear Joey because that accordion is there all the all the time. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And I'm gonna have to play the official song of AI, which is also a tribute to Afroman. Congratulations to Afroman on winning that freedom of speech case. >> I was going to get a job, but then came AI. I'm now an unemployed slob because of AI. I'm hiding from Terminators. Yeah, you know why. Yay. Hey. Cuz of AI. Cuz of AI. Cuz of AI. I love it. I love it so much. Also, like it's not confirmed yet. We just submit uh a talk a panel. But uh speaking about Joan stage, speaking about me, speaking about Joey playing the accordion, um hopefully uh our panel is going to be selected for Devil Con in New York happening this summer. So I submitted a panel uh to you know some kind of like MA ask me anything but ask everything and anything about developer relation with people that are doing that for a long time. So Joey, myself, uh Chris Dear, Chris Dear, sorry, Chris and also uh Eder I forgot his last name. Yeah, thank you uh Erodani. Uh so hopefully our panel is going to be selected, but if you're at the Dro County in New York, uh even if we're not on stage, uh we're going to be there and you probably going to hear me talk really loud and Joey uh probably gonna sing a song check and it'll be fun. And interesting thing about this panel, I have worked with both you and Heather. >> Oh yeah, actually >> Yeah. Yeah. was at Octa and I was at Otz Zero and Otzero got bought out by Octa 2021. >> Speaking of that, uh, you know, I know you, we've been friends for a long time. We work together at Microsoft. Maybe we can talk a little more about that, but maybe maybe there are people living under a rock who do not know the accordion guy. So, like tell tell people like who are you? >> Lots of people who don't know me. Well, anyways, I'm Joey Dilla and I have largely been uh developer evangelist, developer advocate, devril person, whatever, whatever you want to call it. And I have been doing it for some time. I accidentally became uh a developer advocate uh in the year it was 2000 actually. I was working with Corey Doctoro startup it called Open Cola. And what happened was I was I was originally a developer and I went to Linux World Expo New York City. And while I was there, I jump I had my accordion with me. Uh was one of the first times I took an accordion to a conference. I jumped in front of some cameras uh and parlayed that into an interview. And by the time I returned to Toronto, they said, "You're now doing developer relations." And since then, uh I've been doing a lot of it. I did it at uh I did it at two cows. A lot of people think think of two cows as shareware but touc actually provide two cows real money makers providing services like domain name registration and other capabilities to hosting services. That's really where they make their money. So I was helping uh developers at these hosting services uh connect you know just learn the APIs to connect to twocow services. Um after that Microsoft where I was there for a while and that's where I met you Fred and uh yeah they hired yeah they took me in from the open- source world and my job was to talk to was to talk to what Microsoft at the time categorized as unfriendly audiences in other words open source which was wild and uh no had a grand old time. In fact uh I I have um what did I do? I yeah I was at a I was at a talk where Richard Stallman was auctioning off a plush GNU uh and uh he was asking way more than this was a student conference and he started the bid at $100 and this is 20 2009 I think so these are $29 $100 somebody at the back yells we're students >> but he he he he insisted on the starting price at $100 and in the end uh Just as a stunt, I decided, you know what? I'm going as the as the Microsoft representative, I'm going to buy the GNU and I'm going to pay for it with a Microsoft credit card. >> And from what I know about the man, I'm pretty sure was not super happy. >> He was actually all right with it. Okay. He was Yeah, because I talked with him later on and I'm going, you know, Microsoft actually puts out an open source version of PHP that is better tuned for Microsoft servers for internet uh for IIS internet. Oh god, I don't even I can't even remember what II is short for. It's been so long. >> Internet information server. >> Yes, it's been so long. And you know since and then yeah because of that actually I got invited over to uh uh when we went to Microsoft for tech ready uh I got invi that's an internal conference I got invited to see the open source the open source lab there at the time it was in building 17 and it's where they compiled the uh version of micros they of PHP for window that ran on Windows server and they had other open- source projects and I gave them the GNU they had they had a whole bunch of unharmed tux penguins and other plush open source animals and yeah it was a little yeah and they were uh it was an interesting time to be part of an open source project back then Garrett Sarak was running it but yeah fantastic guy and we've stayed in touch all these years and um also at Microsoft the other thing was after a while they decided you know what I'd be because I had a mobile focus they figured I'd be a good a good person to be one of the Windows Phone 7 champions. So, I tried really hard to make Windows Phone 7 happen. I really >> No, sorry. I was just going to say I think it was a fantastic phone. I really love the OS and like the tile thing was was really something modern at the time and especially when when Nokia jump in the like doing hardware. I think like we had a good mix of like the OS was interesting, the hardware was great. >> Hardware. Yeah. >> So, oh my god, >> I see people in the chat. So, there is uh wired kind of my god my former colleagues. How are you gentlemen? >> Oh, wait. >> It's kind of it's uh either Rick or Pierre. Actually, I'm not sure which one is Bar. I'm so sorry. It's It's one of one of the two. It's either Is it? I don't know. You're going to tell us. But >> yeah, you're going to have to tell us. But >> look at this one. The Acornian guy and the tea princess. And I don't know if you remember that. It's a story. >> We were at actually I think it was it's Pierre. Yeah, it's Pierre. So, uh Pierre Pier, I don't know why I said that accent. Pierre. Uh we were actually at tech ready I think which as Joey said it was an internal conference at Microsoft and uh I don't know why I think I wanted to drink a little less coffee so I was like I started to be really into tea and >> as ADHD person I usually go all in and something new like so I bought the great tea and I bought something so I can have my own tea when I'm traveling and all those things and so I had my own tea. We were sitting at the table. I was like boiling the water and then having my own tea and I can't remember who called me like tea princess and but we have this on recording. It's somewhere in YouTube. There's a video on me like saying I think maybe even myself I said like I'm a tea princess or something like that. So yeah, I did not remember that but thank god it's been forever. So that's why I said this show would be different than the other one because I've had guests that I know on the show. I have guests that like I met during the show, but I've known Joey since forever. Yeah, that was Bartto. Thanks, Pio. You have a pretty good memory for uh the age you reach now because you're not a young man anymore. You have a pretty good memory, P. But yeah, that was Bartalo. Bartalo who called me the tea princess, but we have this on video. So, uh no, that was so much fun. And I have another story. I don't know if we can talk about this, but uh let's just go to other comments. Uh there is uh Nightfly 89. I say I love the Windows uh >> Windows Windows phone on Nokia. Quite good. >> That was pretty good. I think and and it's I think it's common knowledge now. Uh it was not successful just because we're not able to play that numbers game. You know when you had like an iPhone, you had a Android uh you were going at a marketplace or whatever like like the store and everything was there like every application that you wanted to install was there. with Microsoft like we were building some of them. We were paying contractor to build some of them but we were like >> we were >> and we were encouraging developers to build some of them. So we had Yeah. Uh because I remember we had some uh >> we we we we rewarded some developers. So uh I oh I wish I could remember his name. A young guy like I think uh either a late high school or early university student wrote what I consider to be the best fart app ever. It was a fant it it was fantastic. Used the w used the uh Windows phone tiles beautifully. It was a fant and there it was one of the uh it was one of the apps that I got into I I helped get into the store before the phone launched. We were trying for a thousand a thousand apps in the store prior to launch. His was his was one of them. I remember I gave him Yeah. I gave him an Xbox 360 out of the magic swag cabinet in uh from the Missaga office. I love the magic swag cabinet, the Xboxes, the Ogo backpacks, all the keyboard, all the good stuff. The Arc mouse. I love the Ark Mouse. Microsoft, you got to bring the Arc mouse back. I love it. >> That was that was such good. I I like I cry a little when mine died. Uh because it was like that was so good. And especially I'm not the kind of person who bring my mouse with myself when I go in coffee shop and stuff, but like if you do, that was the perfect mouse for it because you could like just put it like flat >> and yeah, that was that was really great. Uh yeah, there's a couple of people who were really successful with the Windows phone stores and the window 8, Windows 8 store either from our side because we were giving them like a lot of free stuff because they were like launching popular applications or sometime we have programs where like the more stuff they were doing the more points they had and it could exchange that to like as you said Xbox or stuff like that. But some people made serious money or it helps them to like lend jobs after. So even if the like the platform was not successful in itself um I I think it was successful for what we've done during that time but that was a struggle also like after Microsoft I went to Mozilla and we also tried to launch a phone platform Firefox OS which it may not be as well known because it was mostly for for country um where people may not be able to afford afford the latest iPhone but um you know like you know the cheap Android they're really cheap like they're they're not good quality. So the goal was to offer something that was inexpensive but still working well but on top of that for developers to be able to build application using u uh CSS HTML JavaScript and I think the platform was fantastic and we had a lot of developers that were excited about it but we also struggled to get as many hs as like people needed on the platform because when you go on a new platform you expect to have all the applications that everybody's using on the platform. So we struggled to that and also I think in terms of like Mozilla, Mosilla was doing everything in the open like even their teams meeting notes were on a weekly that was public somewhere and now they had to work with telecommunication companies which are not open at all. So I think they had a certain struggle there but uh let me show some of their comments. Uh Pierre is like I'm older than the internet and I did not know that it says that the heart mouse is still available. >> Oh we'll have to check. Okay, we'll have to check that out. >> Yeah, now I I really like I've been using the this Logitech mouse which uh show sign of wear, but I really like the form factor, too. But like if that mouse is dying, the heart mouse was was pretty good. Pretty pretty good. I don't know if you want to talk about this probably, but like the last tech ready that uh you've done uh you gave one of what I consider the best talk that I've seen at any conferences, but it's a talk that puts you in deep You were in trouble. >> It is. And no, and you know what? This is a Devrell show. Let you know we can we can tell we can tell embarrassing stories and it is what is it now? It's at least 15 years in the past. >> Yeah. >> No. Yeah. But I do Yeah. I I I think uh some people took issue with um a prop a proposed app and I was talking about Yeah. I was talking about user interface design for Windows phone and the app I kept referring to was a uh theoretical application called Sausage Party which was an application Yeah. which which I think is would still be useful today. Sausage Party simply reports the maleto female ratio at bars near you. That is it. It's It's taken from a term that bouncers at bars and clubs use. It's called the sausage party. That's when there's way too many guys and way too few women. And usually what happens is a fight breaks out. You You get too many guys in a place and with a lot of alcohol at night >> with pounding music some Yeah. a fight's going to break out. So that I I think that was I I think that was part of it. I think the other thing was um Oh, yeah. You know what? Um I think it was a survey. Yeah. I was I was pointing out some survey results about when people use their phone and there was a um there was a percentage a shockingly what I thought was shockingly high, like 15% of kids were using their mobile phones while having sex. And I was going, I don't know how it's even pos uh I don't know how it's even possible. And I pointed to my co-presenter Paul and I was going we were going to demonstrate but there are these things called boundaries and yeah that >> poor Paul. I mean I mean like like yeah I remember all that things. So yeah, no, thanks for sharing. Like it may not be as funny as you if you were not there or like you were not part of all this, but that was I've never laughed that much in a talk. And in in all seriousness, like yes, it put you in troubles because like there was a corporate events and and not everybody is like her team was. Let's just say it like that. Uh but like from my point of view like if I want to be serious about that >> like joking and and and using day-to-day example to talk about text you know we're talking about great experience for building as a building mobile application. I think it's the best way to go like to to you know instead of just like those are the facts and like being super serious like you make jokes you make it fun so people learn something but they laugh at the same time. I think that's the recipe for a successful public speaker. I mean, not everybody needs to do that or that specific example, but at the end of the day, I think that's the way to go. >> Yeah, that is the way to go. And I do try and remember there is a rule that comedians tell each other all the time. It's it's big in comedy circles, and that is if it bends, it's comedy. If it breaks, it isn't comedy. And the idea is it's largely it's it's largely about laughing at ourselves and not laughing at the expense of other people. But yeah, and it is it's I think it is important to help maintain that sense of humor especially these days right now especially in Devril because we are we're in the age of AI there is a lot of anxiousness and worry because people are going you know um am I going to get laid off for various reasons either I'm going to get replaced by AI or at least somebody is going to use AI as an excuse to have these layoffs And we've se and we've seen it happen. And it is a challenging it is a challenging market out there. In fact, I uh uh I had been re I I've just recently come off a job search and it was it was a it was a little on the long side and had some and uh had some ups and downs including one case where I was doing some contract work and a contract got can um my contract got cancelled. Sometimes these things happen. Business business business priorities change and then um yeah the competition even within Devril which uh I suspect is still an easier >> an easier still an easier market to land a job in than straight up development just because the population's smaller. Not everybody not everybody wants to do Devril. And there's a larger while there's a larger body of >> jobs out there for straight up developers, they're still uh there is an even larger body of people trying to get those trying to get those jobs. So I mean in one case I remember there was a recruiter who on >> uh I was interviewing at one place and the recruiter told me the recruiter actually said you know what if you could if you could hand in that homework assignment. So, I think it was uh I had to uh do a write up, propose a new feature um and write a really short script to implement that feature. If you could do that today, I think this will win them over. And I told I was going, "Okay, but you know, it's Christmas Eve, right?" But I did. Yes. So, just this past Christmas Eve, I worked frantically and submitted an assignment for this uh for this Devril job. It did not pan out. uh it did not pan out. They changed plans. >> I I I thought I think it was on track. But yeah, these things these things happen. And um the other thing I've been doing and I get I always get permission for this is with my interview with my interviews for various Devril jobs. I've been um I've been recording. I've been recording and I've used Gemini. Uh Gemini is really good at taking getting transcripts uh out of a recording and then having both it and uh both it and Clo analyze it. Since I'm talking with you, Fred, I can call it I can pronounce the name properly. It's Clo. It's not Claude. I know. It's funny because I was talking about it at a talk recently and I was like I feel like I'm breaking my jaw and I tried to force myself to say Claude and I'm like I need to say it like Claude. I'm like, "No, it's Clo." Like, I mean, now Clude. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's it. That's that's that's its name. I mean, I I I I went to school with a guy named Clo and he was a bit of a Claude, but I still call him Clo. >> Yeah. You know, sometimes it's uh Yeah, sometimes I need to to change my accent. Uh I still have my my my accent. But you may remember, Joey, speaking of that, like when I started with Microsoft, like I did not really know English. Like I was babbling like a couple of words. So when I started I remember if like many people on the team were like oh my god like the new developer advocate or we were technical evangelist or technical developer >> we were developer evangelists developer evangelist that was the title that they were using. Yeah. >> Yeah. And oh let me go back to that after because I kind of missed that title but um people were like oh Fred is shy and at the time Demir was like nope like I'm pretty sure this guy is not shy. He just don't know how to express himself. which was the case and I don't know why I'm talking about that but like I learned English after but I was lucky enough that I worked with a bunch of you like everybody on the team you were probably because most of you were in Ontario so we're probably used to work with Kbeekqua who like have like a shitty English so you were really patient with me and you helped me to improve myself so you went well but uh I was lucky enough because that opened the doors to so many things after that or so many places where they would not have gave me the chance and Microsoft and our team did uh I really appreciate that. But >> hey, hey, no problem. And besides, the other thing is one, your English is better than my French. So, yeah. No, no, you were you were ahead of me. I was going, I can't, you know, I cannot blame I can't blame you for that. Your your your English Yeah, your English was better than my French. And you know what? As myself, as a first generation immigrant, like I was born in the Philippines, you know, when I hear Yeah. You you know, when I hear um and I I I I say Yeah. I often say it a little more crudely in a bar, but basically, yeah, I just say, you know what, when I hear an accent, I hear balls. It takes it takes balls or courage or grit or whatever you want to call it to move to another place where you did not, you know, it is not your first language >> and you have to and you have to operate in and you have to you have to learn Yeah. And and you have to learn a different culture and uh Yeah. It's all it's it's it's all different. And even, you know, even within Canada, >> yeah, >> you can tell when you're inside uh you can tell when you're inside label provence and when you're among the uh modlay, the provinces have different feels. By the way, Bel Provence, that's the reference for Quebec, the beautiful province. And Modi Anglay, damned English. I need to say it's not a reflection of what I'm thinking about the people speaking English in Canada. If I want to be honest though, maybe it was many many many years ago because when you speak only one language and how it's working in Canada, I don't want to go in politics but like you know there's always the feeling that there is Quebec and the rest of Canada because we're a little bit like a village within the rest of Canada like speaking French having like a little bit of different culture. So maybe it was what I was thinking in the past but I was lucky enough that you know uh obeyed the mayor working with people like Damiier Joey unfortunately enough I also work with people like P uh which was uh the worst uh seriously but no I kind of missed I'm still talking about that team like you know um it's been what uh 14 years for me maybe that I left Microsoft. Uh I like at first when uh when John Oxley approached me for the job, I said no two or three times because I was more like an open source person and Microsoft at the time, you know, there was the Balmer era. Microsoft was not open at all and I was like I'm not sure I want to do that. And uh they tricked me. Christian came in Christian uh came in in Montreal and it was like hey French is my first language. We came a discussion in French and like just a coffee and I'm like okay. And Christian like kind of like won me over with that discussion was like, "Okay, maybe I can do the interview process." And where am I going with that? Oh yeah. And and the the only reason why I left after a while is because my job like they hire me to do open source open data stuff and interoperability. And at some point new manager was like, "Hey, it's not what you're going to do. You're going to do other stuff." And I'm like, "Yeah, but this is not what I'm good at. This is not what I want to do." So I left. But um I've been in many teams since and and the team we had at the time I think it was like a brilliant team like a really like you know like a bunch of like superstar like being really good at what we're doing and we had multiple team we had like the developer team but we also had the IT pro team and we had like the the the bread team and the dev team and I feel like everybody were like really good at their job at what they're doing mostly everybody. I mean except Pier again. Uh >> and yeah very cohesive group and uh fant you know these are people who I mean we had uh we had uh tech days Canada. So yeah, uh across Canada conference where we took stuff where we took material from the big conference, the big Microsoft conference build, which normally cost $2,000 to attend and we would train up local developers to deliver that same material that all the big shots were delivering so that they too could be rock stars. they too could work on their skills and we even gave them we even gave them presentation training and then you know within those uh eight or nine Canadian cities we would only charge $200 and even then for a lot of people especially students we we'd let them in for free and it was it was great and it is the kind of community thing that I think that uh everybody in Devril should cons yeah everybody in Devril should consider especially now that the definition of developer is a lot wider now that we've got vibe coding and uh it's something that we need to uh it's some it's something we need to consider. It's a crazy it's a crazy brave new world. >> It is. >> But I am so glad we had all those times at Microsoft together. I love that. Yeah, that team is fantastic. Uh everybody was everybody was great to work with. I would glad, you know, I I would have no trouble sitting in a van with all of you for eight hours driving from one place to another. I mean, yeah, it was it was fantastic. It was it was that funny enough, I don't know if you remember Tony. Uh she was the uh um she was uh assistant for what's what was his name? Maria Antonella. She was at the Missoga office. So, I was in Toronto last week. Uh we went for a coffee. So, fantastic. See each other. So I try to keep in touch with some people but I don't have the chance to meet most of the uh approvers team once in a while. Uh I have a question for you. Will uh editor AI be the developer advocate for five coding agents? Uh I don't know another um there will there might be another uh some AIS who will take on some of the jobs or some of the tasks not jobs tasks that devril people >> will take on for instance um probably doing things like um repeating a message across social media maybe converting uh converting uh converting documentation converting uh converting content that we have to create from one format to another like maybe especially extra you know what take this video or presentation I did and turn it into an article >> but I think in the end um and I hope I'm right about this I think the human element talking developer uh talking developer to developer making that connection building those relationships uh that's uh that is still something that you're going to need a human developer relations person for I think >> that you said that because I was like ready to fight with you depending on your answer. I it's funny I was talking with a colleague exactly about your two parts answers like one like it can be helpful with some task uh it can help us to amplify what we're trying to do and maybe it's a little bit like pretentious for for me to do to say that but like you just said it so I guess it's not the case or maybe we're both pretentious I don't know but I think I think the job that we do >> will even be more important because we're slowly removing the human for so many process we've been doing that for years but now with AI it's even more that and it does not resonate with most people and our job even if it's it's a technical job even if I still consider myself a developer even if I'm a developer right advocate right now I still consider myself a developer my job was really never about the tech my job was always about the human and I use the tech to connect with the human and I use the tech to help human like be successful and I hope they're going to be successful with my up because you know I want my company to be successful and get my paycheck let's be honest but >> the why that job is necessary is because how developers are it's because how we can connect with developers because the thing that they like because the thing that they dislike it needs a specific approach and a human approach so again maybe I'm delusional about that and I hope I'm not uh but I'm pretty sure that like yeah we won't be able to replace our job or at least not all the job part of the task as you said maybe that's going to help us to amplify but I firmly believe and I hope also that uh that job will still be really important uh because it was always about the human connection. >> Yeah. And the other thing is that the definition of who who get who gets counted as a developer is now a bigger pool. Like before it was somebody who at least >> understood at least one programming language and maybe had to understand some of the underlying technology whereas now it's somebody who has a problem they want to solve and they have an idea of how to solve it. uh you know cuz I'm sure there are a lot of people who have you know dreamed oh I wish you know I wish this thing existed and now and now that you can in plain language explain what it is and have an AI if not maybe build a perfect version of the application build a prototype or bu you know build a something that works well enough to do the job like I I I I envision you know at some point people will vibe coding, just little things to help them through their day that are only useful to them, but >> saves them some saves them some time, saves them some effort every day. It makes their life easier every day. Uh like, you know, like people talking to the Star Trek computer and asking for a thing and they get they get this piece, they get this application that helps them. I see that as I see that that uh yeah we are now talking we're now talking to a larger audience and we will probably need to uh adjust our practice as developer advocates to uh to this to this new audience who may necess not necessarily have learned programming or technology. I just think of vibe coding as just the next layer of abstraction. In the beginning if you wanted to solve a um in the beginning you had to solve a problem entirely by hardware and then after that yeah after that you you had to do it in assembly language and then after that you know it got better and people started using higher level languages and I remember uh I remember people saying oh no no you will always need to use assembly language uh this higher level language stuff is for amateurs >> you know and it it and it changes now we just have an extra layer. As far as I'm concerned, prompting is programming. It's just the next layer of abstraction up. >> Yeah, I agree. And and I mean I I understand where the comments is from. So basically the job of the future that won't be replaced by I is being a Devril. I don't think it's necessarily true. I hope it's true. I firmly believe in the value of Devril. But at the same time right now um so many people are losing their jobs and the reason or the the reason that are put in place are AI but if we want to be honest right now we didn't reach a point where AI really replace people or or help you to be 10x more productive it's on the premises that at some point AI will give you that possibility of producing more and or just like a reason for like shitty people to lay people off. So, we're not at the point yet, I think, even if a lot of people has AI as a reason where they they lose their job, I don't think it's a real reason most of the time. So, who knows? Uh like I have lost my job at companies even preai because um like they thought that my job was something else closer to a salesperson. Even when we talked about it, they realized it was not the case and they didn't see the value. So, they let me go. So AI or not, there's always going to be people that won't see value in what we do and or will want to get more money or cut cost somewhere and will be the ones going to have to being let go. Maybe at some point some people will say like you know um I'm pretty sure people in customer support were like hey we will never be replaced because when you are at the point when you need to talk to customer support it's because you need to talk to a real person. you didn't find the information on the docs on the website on the manual of whatever you have problem with and now it's a lot of butt that helps you does that make the experience better most of the time from my personal experience no I always try to talk to a real person because like that that butt is most of the time not able to answer my question because if I reach that point it's because I tried everything and I need to talk to a real person so maybe some people will replace developer relation with AI a bot or LLM that will do most of what we you will that be good maybe. Would that be good enough? Maybe too. But yeah, we know we we just don't know. I don't want to say that like don't don't quote and say like hey Joey and Fred in like April 9 in 2026 said that like their job will never be replaced and like a year after >> that doesn't exist. But I think the human job >> something like we do is going to be a little more difficult to replace. But again, maybe we're just dreaming because this is what we do and this is what we love to do and this is like I'm pretty sure >> most developer were like we will never be replaced because you need specific skills to be able to build application and now right now we're like not replacing but like slowly changing how we code. So >> I don't know. >> Yeah man. Yeah. Yeah. This is a big level of change on you know as big as well actually probably bigger than the industrial revolution in the end. And I kind of wonder what happened you know what happened to the art how how did the artisans react when you know a lot of the work was being done by machine and initially done by machine very poorly and you know that's you know and we have that's where we get the word sabotage from actually it's that French workers throwing their wooden shoes into the machinery they're sabo so yeah sabotage that's where that's where it came from that I know it was coming from French like but I don't know because they're really good at at you know going in the street and just trying to change things like the French people like French from France they're really good at doing that but I don't know what's coming from there yeah >> yeah that's where it comes from >> my was like sorry too late already vibe wrote an article and quote what we said about the I like that I like that and um we have another comment from uh and I'm sorry I'm probably struggle say your um your name uh for Deell specifically sometimes we don't lose because of AI but sometimes when the role is not understood correctly >> yes that is the story of my life Joey please go >> that's oh yeah that's the challenge I guess part of it is you know they're just going well it's sort of it's developer marketing >> or you're part of the marketing department or um I I had one uh I had one interview for a deell position where I was ready with demos post and they said, "Actually, we standardize on this thing. Uh, pretend I'm a large customer and you're trying to convince me to you're trying to convince me to use our particular system." And I was just going, "Wait, hold it. Uh, I've done sales before, but I can't do it on the fly. I have no sales material. I have no idea. I have no idea of the needs of this particular hypothetical customer that you're coming up with. I don't know the details of all the products. I was focused on a particular aspect of it. So yeah, it does happen. I mean in the end in the end part of it is yeah a a company wants to make a a company wants to make money and sometimes uh people in management are just going you know what the developer Yeah the developer's job the de a developer uh advocates job is to just uh be a techier salesman. Yeah. >> And and that's it, >> you know. Uh >> and and and we need people like that, but it's not my definition of developer advocate. It's not my definition of developer relation. So yeah, sometimes it doesn't work and and sometime there's like what I've seen too is misunderstanding of like the nature of the role where like we have discussion during the interview and I was like okay, I think we understand each other because I'm really clear about and I don't have the only truth. I'm just clear about what myself I like to do when it comes to Devil and how I see Deell and we explain and we discuss and I start the job and I'm like, "Oh, but like I thought you were like more like a salesperson." I'm like, "No, no, I just told you like this is not what I do." >> So, yeah. Anyway, I mean, we help drive sales and eventually everybody does eventually everybody does sales, but it's not as developer advocates, it's not our it it's not our primary job. >> Exactly. I always say that um if I do my job well, a positive side effect is that I will fill the top of the funnel. I will probably help the self-esteem. I will help people at every level. But if my job start to be sure that people's going to give us money or be sure they're going to be users, it becomes like a it becomes a sales role. So, and this is not something that I want to do. So, uh we're going to take last question because we can we could talk forever and I love doing that, but I try to keep the show a little more like around like 45 minutes an hour and um I will take the last question. So there's uh Nightfly Ed was Isn't that the definition of a pre-sales engineer role? Uh you're talking I'm not sure actually. Are you talking about like what we were talking about developer relation or more like like the things we said were not developer relation? Yeah, I'm not sure I understand. Sorry the question. Maybe Joey, do you know? >> Well, uh there there there's some overlap. Yeah, there there there's some overlap. I think the uh I I I think a developer advocate is reaching out a little a little wider and just uh because developer advocates also are talking to existing developers and exist customers who are already there uh to maintain the rel uh maintain the relationship uh alert the alert the current user base of new developments or changes or announcements or things like that. So it's a little it's a little wider than uh it's a little wider than the pre-sales. I have in many organizations sales engineering or pre-sales engineering uh work in a work in a different department but I have I have paired up with them on customer meetings and calls to provide a little more uh provide a little more background >> because uh pre-sale uh pre uh sales engineering in general are a little more driven by commission and they are measured more by sales versus uh developer advocates or developer relation. were measured more by um uh things like satisfaction thing uh satisfaction numbers some uh enga and various engagement metrics and it is a tricky thing to measure >> it is it is because businesses don't always speak that way what they want to see is the amount of dollar the conversion and stuff but as you said and I think this is what nightfly was asking is like the the last thing that we said that we're not really deil but some companies ask us to do is more like a pre-sales engineers when from my point of view uh I'm going to talk to you uh even if you don't give us money I'm going to talk to you even if you don't plan to give us money I'm going to talk to you even if you don't care about my product I'm going to try to help you if I can because what I'm doing is building relation if I want to be honest business-wise I hope that like the time that I help you you remember that and at some point in your career in the next project if you need my solution you may remember me as the guy was nice and help you. I'm going to do it because I feel like a nice person. But it's also a little bit part of the job. It's the medium to long-term type event pack you have when you build those kind of relation with people. So >> yeah. >> Anyway, uh from what you have on your screen behind your head, I feel like we have like the devil show. >> It's going to have an exclusivity right now. >> An announcement. Yes. This is where I'm publicly saying it for the first time here on the Devril show. Yes, I Joey Davilla have landed a job. It is as a senior developer advocate for Net Foundry. And Net Foundry are the people who make an open source project called Open ZD. And yes, that >> congratulations to Sorry, go ahead. >> Oh, no, no, go ahead. Go ahead. Oh to say congratulation to to both of you. Congratulation to you for landing a job. As you said it was a little more like lenty to like the market was difficult. I was looking for a job last year. It was like a different than like any other time that I was looking for a job. Uh so congratulation to you for the new job. Congratulation to Net Foundry because you find one of the most amazing person. Look at that guy. He's on the devil show today. He did not even start the work yet. is already doing stuff, already talking about the company, already talking about one of your product. Why? Just because he is passionate, he's good at what he's doing. Um, so if you can deal with his personality, you're you're good. >> Yeah, exactly. Hopefully, they can put up with me for a while. But >> I mean, this is what I tell people the same thing for me. Like, if if you can get used to me as a person, >> I think we're going to be a great team and I can I think you're going to be happy. Not everybody is able to do that, but uh no, I think it's going to be good. Uh open uh Clint says it'll fit right in. >> But yeah, open Yeah, open ziti. So yeah, ziti as in the noodle, but really because it's a play on Z, the letters ZT, zero trust. So Oh. >> Oh, you know what? I thought that that that exact I did not make that connection myself. >> No, neither at all. Not at all. But I love it. I love it. And maybe it's because we're Canadian and we think of the last letter of the alphabet as zed. >> That's true. I don't know. But yeah, but yeah, ZT zero trust. And basically what it is is it's a fantastic way I wish I'd known about this earlier. It's a great way to protect your networks. And the reason is generally and I remember working at Open Cola. We had we hired somebody who submitted his resume by this is in 2000. Okay. He scanned our Windows network and then used it to insert a um insert his resume in the CEO's home directory. >> I mean, give that person a job first. Yeah. >> Oh, yeah. As soon as that happened, I'm just going, we got to hire that guy. >> This this is our >> But yeah, that's the thing is that the problem is we've got networks are typically listening uh they're always listening on an open port because that's how you connect with them. But the problem is that's where that's where the vulnerability lies. But what if your network was dark by default? And that's the idea behind Open Zi. It is an open-source project. You do not need to buy anything from Net Foundry to use it. The idea is that you go to Net Foundry for the hosted version where they take care of it and they manage it and you build your application using this open ZD. It's a network overlay. So it's basically kind of a network on top of your network and you communicate with that network and the only way to reach that network actually is to have the correct cryptographic ID. >> Oh, okay. no matter what. So, uh, what I'm going to do, uh, please I know you asked for a demo and this is this is hilarious. So, I don't work I don't start there till the 20th. I have not received any documentation. They've been busy. They've got they they have an all hands they've got all hands and planning meetings next week uh next week. So, they're a bit busy to deal with the new guy. Uh, you know, they uh but I figured I I'll do some research on my own and write uh write something. So yeah, I'm sure. Is my screen visible? >> Yes. Yes. >> There we go. So I've got I've got a server running right now. It is running uh it is running on open it is running on open ziti and I'm going to call up a plain old client right now. So I'm just going to go I wrote a really this simple server just spits out JSON if you can access it. Otherwise uh otherwise you can't access access it at all. I have a plain Python client. I'll show you the code in just a moment, but all it does is it sends a HTTP get request. Very simple. I try to access the system just using plain old HTTP request. And of course, I get connection refused. No TCP port is listening. And in fact, if I uh this thing is serving on, you can see here I'm highlighting it localhost 8080. Let me uh let me end map localhost. All the ports are listed there. Notice that port 8080 is completely missing. >> Yeah, >> it is not there. You cannot break into a port that you can't even you can't even see. That's the idea. So, let me run the other client. So, once again, uh pythonclient ziti and I will show you the code. Once again, this is simply sending an HTTPS get request, but this one has requests monkey patched to use an open ZD object which contains the necessary uh contains the necessary uh cryptographic credentials which allows me to access the server and get the message that it delivers. Hello from the open ZD protected server. So, the only way once again, the only way to access this is to use, let me see if I can, let's see, client ZD. Here we go. Once again, I'm just using plain old HTTP requests, the Python uh the Python library. The only difference is prior to making that request, >> okay, >> I'm using the open ZD object to monkey patch the requests method. And basically that's what allows me to connect to what is a um basically it's a combination controller and router that handles all the messaging between a a ZD protected server and a ZD enabled client. So uh and only a ZD enabled client can communicate with a ZD enabled server and o and that is when they can see it can see the ports that have been opened and that guarantees that of course uh you can't get uh you you can't you can't hack what you can't even access or see. So that's the whole that's the whole idea behind it. And uh right now Net Foundry is in the middle of they've just released a whole bunch of stuff. There is a uh there's an open ZD system for LLMs and there's an open ZD for MCP servers and there's going to be more there's going to be more stuff for AI systems because AI opens a giant attack surface uh to the rest of the world. So you'd better lock down your network. So that's what uh that's what Net Foundry is doing. Uh there are a lot of large US banks that already have that are using open ziti or net foundry services as are a bunch of companies including I was just looking through the list including the German company Zemens and a whole bunch of people who really want their networks locked down. So that's what this is all about. Uh the um they need a little more publicity. They need a certified yapper to make the noise for them. And that is uh that's what I'm going to be doing. And uh I plan to do all kinds of uh do all kinds of things including presentations and articles and and basically um helping helping developers whether they are seasoned uh seasoned programmers who've been working programming languages for the past 20 years or they're vibe coders. I'm going to help them use Open ZD and net and of course the hosted version net foundry. >> That's that's amazing and and I I will try that first. Uh, and I don't say that just to be nice. Uh, because I usually don't say that after Debo, but like this is really interesting to me. Uh, they found the right person, but I have a huge bias toward my friend here. Uh, but I I know it's not really a bias. It's true. Uh, the proof is Clint was like, "Hey, uh, application bed, zero trust, example, and action. Very nice. Love an overachiever. I told you he did not even start the job. That he's already doing his job. He didn't get a paycheck yet. that he's already doing that job. So that's amazing. And uh I think it's even more important right now to talk about security as you said like because of AI. Um there's a lot of people and I'm not saying that in a um a cynical or or to to be negative about people but there's a lot of people that do not exactly know what they're doing which end ups with a lot of application that are not secure. I mean even as developers often we don't know what we're doing. >> We we get wrong. >> We get wrong. We create bugs and and I used to work for a small part of of my devro life in the in security space and uh when I was asking developers like do you care about security the answer was yes and when I was asking them what are you doing to secure your application or fro or whatever the answer was always like um um um people were like yeah okay so I think it's important to talk it was always important to talk about it and giving a solution that from my point of view seems really uh simple to use. Not that the solution is simple, but like simple to use. I think it does a lot of complex stuff, but like it seems like it's quite straightforward to use. I think it's great. So, yeah, like any good product, uh you need to have a voice out there that can talk to developers, the same language, and that can show the benefits. So, anyway, uh congrats again on the job. Thanks for the demo. Anything else you want to add about uh Open CD or uh Net Foundry? >> Well, basically, I'm still learning. I I I'm still in the learning phase, but uh you know what? Uh this quick message uh quick quick message to uh Dave, my boss, the CTO. Uh it worked. I cobbled it together last night and it worked. >> That's awesome. That's awesome. >> And I've got And I'm gonna have to turn I'm gonna have to turn this into an article. >> Yeah. Yeah. Know, please do. >> And and a demo. So this is the Python uh this is the Python version. I'm going to have to work on this the C version and the Go version. Actually, this is a good chance for me to sharpen my Golang uh skills. So, yeah, I'm looking great. Yeah, I'm really looking forward to it. Uh it's a small company. Yeah, 65 people. >> Speaking of David, I don't know if it's that David, but there is a David Hart here. >> That's that's my boss, Dave Hart. So, >> CTO uh co-founder of Net Foundry and Open CDN, >> my friend, I don't know if you were listening before, I'm gonna say it again. Uh you hired the right person to do the job. You are in good hands with Joey. He is one of the top developer advocate out there. So, uh congratulation to you uh for hiring Joey. Uh, I'm saying that obviously Joey's a friend, so maybe you don't trust what I say, but I've seen a lot of great and a lot of not so great developer advocates and and Joy's on the top uh of the the >> M. Thank you, Fred. You're you're way too kind. Thank you. >> So, uh, thanks for being on the show. Uh, that was it was I know it was going to be great to have you on the show. Um, you know, we've known another for a while. We don't always have the chance to spend time together since we don't work together anymore. I think the last time we met and it was kind of like in and out. Was it in Texas for Civo Nate? I think >> it was Civo Nate. It was here in Tampa. >> And Tampa. Oh, that was in Tampa. >> Yeah, it was here in Tampa. But you know what? Uh I I I need to head up to Montreal again. And Nitro wants to see Montreal again. We want to eat uh you know, we want to go to G M and uh and have duck in a duck in a can. Let me know. Let me know if you're koshon. We also want to go to ped koson. >> Yeah. Yeah. Probably you want to go there. Yeah. No, no. Let me know when you're in town. And uh maybe the new job will bring you also to do more conferences. So >> what happened with most of my developer advocate colleagues is that uh we see each other at different conferences. Hopefully that's going to be the case. And hopefully >> I mean we will go drinking in Brooklyn. >> I think so. I mean, John or Swift, if you're watching, uh, De Ro right now, watching the recording, they're the one organizing Devil Con in New York. >> After what you've seen, you don't have the choice to accept our panel. On top of that, it's not just the two of us. You have Chris and you have Er, amazing human. >> That's going to be a real show. I think we have, you know, we have the other thing we have to do is we have to go to New York City's Lower East Side, the super hipster district, and uh there's the there's a restaurant there called Putoutin. >> Okay. >> And they claim to make Putin. And I want to see I've never been and I want to see if these New Yorkers can make Putin. I know that uh there's a place called uh there's a Putin place in Disney World in Orlando. >> Oh, yeah. I mean, I've had I've had poutine in many places outside of Quebec or Canada, and most of them. Yeah. >> Yeah. Maybe New York. It's close enough. I mean, >> it's close enough. Although, you know what? There's an there there's a former Montrealer here in the Tampa Bay area, and he he has a restaurant. He has a chain of restaurants called Frenchies, >> and his poutine's Okay. >> Okay. Good. Good. So, yeah, let's try this in New York. Uh yeah, even if we don't do the panel, uh the conference should be nice being with our peer. It's the only developer relations conference out there. Actually, I should probably uh share the link with folks. If you do not know about the conference, maybe it's not close to you, >> but uh it's uh let me create a banner here because I think it's worth to promote that event. Uh it's a conference that happened uh many many years ago, different places in the world uh for reasons. It did not happen for the last couple of years but two or three years ago uh the lovely folks being uh behind uh MLH uh major league hacking uh decided to start to organizing in organize it in New York. So it's going to be the third edition. I was unlucky enough that I was not able to be there for different reason than the last two. Uh but this year I mean my ticket is paid. Uh I submit a panel. Uh it like the timing is good. So unless things happen again, I should be there. Uh but again it's the only conference that really pertain to us doing their real so if you're developer advocate you need to be there great content but also just the the number of people the great people that are going to be there >> fantastic speakers yeah go look on their YouTube channel uh of past presentations it is f it's fantastic and the other thing is I am looking forward to waving the net foundry flag there >> and open zd and yeah may have to yeah may have to >> may have to order some ziti and just serve it to people. There's a there's a whole noodle theme in with open ziti and net foundry. Yeah, >> there is definitely something you can do there. So, uh thanks again for being on the show. Uh any last word you want to end the show with? Anything? >> Well, uh you you know what? Uh basically the best way I'm just making this off the top of my head right now. The best way to deal with artificial intelligence is with real humanity. How about that? I cannot add anything after that. So on that note, thanks again Joey. Thanks for the people who watch live. I always like to have comments and question. That's always that that is why I do a live stream. If not, I would do a podcast a video podcast. Uh I like to have it uh live. Uh lovely episode. Thanks for the great feedback. Your quote, Joey, very very deep. Love it. Uh, love it. Def love that. David, thumbs up. So, uh, thanks again for everyone who watch us live and, uh, thanks for, uh, everyone also who's going to watch the recording. And I'm going to be back in the next, uh, Devrell show. I should really like know those kind of things. But I think I have one exactly uh, scheduled in two weeks actually. Yes. So, I'm starting to do these a little more often and trying to fit them within my travel. And I'm also excited about my next guest. So that's gonna be Phil. I'm gonna screw up his last name. Legator. Uh well known in Deel. Uh so Phil's gonna be on my show in two weeks. So have a good rest of the day everyone. >> All right. >> See you soon. >> Thanks everybody., Devrelshow Episode 45 - Joey De Villa, YouTube, 01kp1z3nbzqp5zqwmvxh2atvq0.