#151 – Elena Brescacin on Accessibility Challenges and Solutions ![rw-book-cover](https://wsrv.nl/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwptavern.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2021%2F02%2F1045657e-7764-4ccf-8fa2-0f38b64f4fd8.jpg&w=100&h=100) ## Metadata - Author: [[WP Tavern]] - Full Title: #151 – Elena Brescacin on Accessibility Challenges and Solutions - Category: #podcasts - URL: https://share.snipd.com/episode/68367965-dc9e-470c-a643-5e477a2a0e7e ## Document Notes ## Highlights - Elena Brescacin is an accessibility consultant from Italy who has been blind since birth. She's worked online since 2000, initially with a company that's now called Tangency Design (part of NTT Data). Her expertise lies in website and mobile app accessibility, and she's also involved in the Fediverse. While she's been aware of WordPress since 2003, she began using it in 2021. Transcript: Nathan Wrigley Elena is an accessibility consultant from Italy who has been blind since birth and working online since 2000 with Tangity Design, a part of NTT Data Company. Her journey with WordPress began in 2021, but she has been aware of it since 2003. A computer geek, Elena enjoys finding solutions to everyday challenges through technology. Eleanor is here to discuss the significant accessibility advancements and challenges within WordPress, especially with the transition from the classic editor to the block editor. She shares how full site editing has empowered her to manage most of her site content and without needing constant visual assistance, despite some areas needing further improvement. We talk about her experiences navigating the internet using screen reader software, the importance of adhering to HTML semantics for accessibility, and her involvement in the WordPress Community, including her contributions to the Italian Polyglots and speaking at WordPress events. Eleanor also reflects on the evolution of the internet, personal experiences with various web accessibility tools, and her advocacy work in digital spaces. We get into real-world challenges, such as inaccessible event venues and the advantages of online events for better accessibility. Eleanor shares her frustrations and triumphs in web accessibility, her insights on the impact of proper semantic web design, and her continued efforts to raise awareness and support A more inclusive internet. If you're curious about web accessibility, particularly how WordPress is used to create content, this episode is for you. If you're interested in finding out more, you can find all of the links in the show notes by heading to wptavern.com forward slash podcast, where you'll find all the other episodes as Well. And so, without further delay, I bring you Elena Breyskacin. I am joined on the podcast today by Elena Breyskacin. Hello, Elena. Hello. Elena Brescacin Thank you for having me as a guest. Nathan Wrigley You are so welcome. I have to say, massive apologies to Elena, and we'll get onto this a moment. Eleanor has been more gracious than you can imagine. We have tried multiple times to get this podcast recorded, and apart from this one time, more or less everything that we've tried has failed. And as I said, we'll discover why that is in a moment. But firstly, my sincere thanks for sticking with me, despite the frustrating nature of it, seemingly being happy to carry on the endeavor. So I'm very grateful. Thank you so much. OK, so the endeavor today is to talk about your journey with WordPress. We're going to land there in the end. But before we get into that, would you just give us a little bit of your potted bio? And hopefully that'll paint a picture of what we're going to talk about today but just tell us a little bit about yourself what you have done in the past maybe go back right to the beginning Of all that and then yeah just let us know what it is that you're doing currently I am an accessibility consultant I am blind I have been blind since birth. Elena Brescacin I'm from Italy. I work online since 2000. 2002, I started working officially and I work for the same company. It has changed names many times, but now it's called Tangency Design. It's part of NTData Company. It's a Japanese multi-country company. Currently, I am working so much time with AI and with accessibility of websites and mobile apps. And of course, I'm involved into the Fediverse because I find it's the future of communication right now. I have no WordPress in 2003, but I started using it in 2021. Thank ([Time 0:01:17](https://share.snipd.com/snip/97e5178b-28e4-45cf-b5e7-b0883c571365)) - **Elena's Background** - Elena Brescacin, an accessibility consultant, has been blind since birth. - She has been working online since 2000 and using WordPress since 2021. Transcript: Nathan Wrigley You are so welcome. I have to say, massive apologies to Elena, and we'll get onto this a moment. Eleanor has been more gracious than you can imagine. We have tried multiple times to get this podcast recorded, and apart from this one time, more or less everything that we've tried has failed. And as I said, we'll discover why that is in a moment. But firstly, my sincere thanks for sticking with me, despite the frustrating nature of it, seemingly being happy to carry on the endeavor. So I'm very grateful. Thank you so much. OK, so the endeavor today is to talk about your journey with WordPress. We're going to land there in the end. But before we get into that, would you just give us a little bit of your potted bio? And hopefully that'll paint a picture of what we're going to talk about today but just tell us a little bit about yourself what you have done in the past maybe go back right to the beginning Of all that and then yeah just let us know what it is that you're doing currently I am an accessibility consultant I am blind I have been blind since birth. Elena Brescacin I'm from Italy. I work online since 2000. 2002, I started working officially and I work for the same company. It has changed names many times, but now it's called Tangency Design. It's part of NTData Company. It's a Japanese multi-country company. Currently, I am working so much time with AI and with accessibility of websites and mobile apps. And of course, I'm involved into the Fediverse because I find it's the future of communication right now. I have no WordPress in 2003, but I started using it in 2021. Thank ([Time 0:03:32](https://share.snipd.com/snip/84b2f0f1-fe72-4142-8847-e87a1148734b)) - Here are five quotes from the podcast episode that highlight key themes: > I am an accessibility consultant I am blind I have been blind since birth. I'm from Italy. I work online since 2000. > > — **Elena Brescacin** This quote establishes Elena's background and expertise, framing her perspective on accessibility. > I think that internet was given the wrong dimension, make it more utopia than it really is. Because let's remember that internet is made by humans. > > — **Elena Brescacin** This quote reflects on the idealistic view of the internet versus its reality, highlighting the human element in its design and accessibility. > Overall, you cannot expect politician to do anything. > > — **Elena Brescacin** This quote expresses a sense of realism about the limitations of expecting large-scale change from political entities without individual action. > Because the block is an interface. Basically, it's an interface. And it's from the rules from WordPress core. They say it's accessible, second level accessibility guidelines. > > — **Elena Brescacin** This quote highlights the accessibility features of the WordPress block editor and how they align with accessibility guidelines. > But I think it has to become more consistent. Accessibility team should get more people inside, I think, for testing, for coders, skilled coders, because I feel that it's not being neglected willingly, but because a few people are working in there. > > — **Elena Brescacin** This quote offers constructive criticism, suggesting ways to improve WordPress's approach to accessibility. Transcript: Elena Brescacin Am an accessibility consultant I am blind I have been blind since birth. I'm from Italy. I work online since 2000. 2002, I started working officially and I work for the same company. It has changed names many times, but now it's called Tangency Design. It's part of NTData Company. It's a Japanese multi-country company. Currently, I am working so much time with AI and with accessibility of websites and mobile apps. And of course, I'm involved into the Fediverse because I find it's the future of communication right now. I have no WordPress in 2003, but I started using it in 2021. Nathan Wrigley Thank you very much. So earlier in your bio just then, you said that you had been blind from birth. Now, I'm not entirely sure what the spectrum of that word means, but my understanding is that the word blind can be different things to different people. But in your case, is it fair to say that you are entirely blind? You have no sight at all? Or do you have impaired vision? Elena Brescacin No, no, no. I am totally blind. I don't see anything. Nathan Wrigley And clearly, on a podcast like this where we're talking about WordPress, this is going to play into the conversation a lot. Is it the sort of blind nature of things that you're doing your accessibility work in? Are you helping people online, particularly WordPress website builders and app builders and things like that? Do they come to you with a requirement to understand how their interface, how their website is working, and you give them kind of an appraisal of this works, this doesn't work, you need To look at this, and so on. Elena Brescacin Yes, it happens. This is part of my job. I also teach to some customers when they have no idea of what accessibility is. I have had many speeches for accessibility. I participated to TEDx in 2015. I did not use WordPress then. And I had WordPress Accessibility Day in 2024. I have spoken in two World Camps, Italy World Camp 2021 and Verona World Camp 2023. Unfortunately, the speeches are in Italian. Accessibility is in English. WordPress Accessibility Day is in English. The speech is called the same editors, same language. It talks about Gutenberg. And I also participated to core days, WordPress core Days in 2024, last November, in Rome. And I presented my experience with a multilingual website based on Gutenberg. Nathan Wrigley Thank you very much. Now, it feels to me that if you've been working online, and I think you mentioned 2003, possibly, as one of the earlier dates that you mentioned in your biography, would it be true to say That at the beginning of the internet, so when we were all just getting online and it was dial-up modems and what have you, I was using the internet from a fairly early date. And it feels to me as if the internet might have been a more hospitable place for somebody who is blind back then. Because my recollection of the internet back then was that really it was just text. There was text and there were underlined text links. There was very little in the way of imagery, but it was primarily text. We certainly didn't have video. We didn't have complicated platforms to publish things online. Has the internet basically become more challenging over the previous two decades for somebody like you to navigate around? I'm not talking there about the ability to create content. I'm just talking about the ability to consume content. Is the internet more noisy, more difficult to navigate around now than it used to be, let's say 20 years ago? Elena Brescacin Oh, well, it depends on what you want to see because you had much text-based content then, it's true, but obstacles began into 1999 the first visual capture the anti-spam anti-bot control Based on visual text copy this text into a box if you are a human you can see otherwise you are cut off i know exactly what you mean so it was those early captures where you had to be able to Nathan Wrigley See a particular thing. And if you could see it, it was fairly straightforward to carry on. And we all know what captures are. We see them still. Often it's click on pictures of, I don't know, cars or something like that. And without that pass, if you like, you are stifled, aren't you? You can't then go on to do whatever it is. It may be log into a platform, what have you. So that was your first experience, was it? Captures was the first time the internet became something which you could no longer do. Suddenly there was a barrier which hadn't existed before. Elena Brescacin It has started to become common after 1999. The first to implement was Yahoo, Yahoo groups. Then it came on Google, it came everywhere. Now I have, a visual CAPTCHA to change password, a visual CAPTCHA for if you forget the password. I must ask for help every time I have to access that service. Nathan Wrigley Experience. I'm sure that we'll get into slightly more positive things, but I want to spend a moment just discussing what it is that you do when you browse the internet. I mean, clearly it's obvious to you what you do, but it may be that the listeners to this podcast, because we have a very wide listenership and some of them are very experienced. They no doubt think about accessibility for their websites all the time, but there's bound to be other people who really don't know what it is that somebody like you is doing on a day-to Basis to navigate the internet. So can we just describe what it is that you're doing when you're sat at your computer now, and we could talk about different devices like phones or whatever as well, but let's just begin With a computer, a desktop computer. Is it that you are able to navigate the internet without being able to see what's on a screen? How does it work? Elena Brescacin So I do not have a mouse. I do not use a mouse. I have a keyboard, ([Time 0:04:30](https://share.snipd.com/snip/1ef10f8e-59ca-4f44-82ed-d0fea9249fb8)) - **Early Internet Accessibility** - Early internet was largely text-based, seemingly more accessible. - However, visual CAPTCHAs, introduced around 1999, created immediate barriers for blind users. Transcript: Nathan Wrigley You very much. Now, it feels to me that if you've been working online, and I think you mentioned 2003, possibly, as one of the earlier dates that you mentioned in your biography, would it be true to say That at the beginning of the internet, so when we were all just getting online and it was dial-up modems and what have you, I was using the internet from a fairly early date. And it feels to me as if the internet might have been a more hospitable place for somebody who is blind back then. Because my recollection of the internet back then was that really it was just text. There was text and there were underlined text links. There was very little in the way of imagery, but it was primarily text. We certainly didn't have video. We didn't have complicated platforms to publish things online. Has the internet basically become more challenging over the previous two decades for somebody like you to navigate around? I'm not talking there about the ability to create content. I'm just talking about the ability to consume content. Is the internet more noisy, more difficult to navigate around now than it used to be, let's say 20 years ago? Elena Brescacin Oh, well, it depends on what you want to see because you had much text-based content then, it's true, but obstacles began into 1999 the first visual capture the anti-spam anti-bot control Based on visual text copy this text into a box if you are a human you can see otherwise you are cut off i ([Time 0:07:30](https://share.snipd.com/snip/513e7bd8-2133-4a2c-8ac8-827db98488dd)) - Here are three contrarian moments from the podcast, where conventional wisdom is challenged: **1. Elena's positive view of the Block Editor despite others' opinions** Play from 27:44. Elena reveals that while many blind users prefer the Classic Editor, she found it frustrating and preferred to work in code mode. The Block Editor, while having some areas for improvement, provides an interface that allows for rapid movement of blocks and other improvements. This contrasts with the common perception that the Classic Editor is more accessible for blind users. > "So I have worked into the WordPress system. I knew it in 2003. My profile on WordPress.org is from 2005. And my activity in WordPress was very frustrating at the beginning because I didn't find very easily the controls on the classic editor. Strange because many blind users I know are happy with the classic editor. For me, it's different. Maybe it's me, I don't know. But when classic editor was the only one to use, I was using it in code mode. So I wrote HTML by hand. And in the end, I abandoned the WordPress because it wasn't so good." — **Elena Brescacin** **2. Elena's belief that the internet was initially *more* accessible for the blind** Play from 07:30. Elena argues that the early internet, primarily text-based, was more accessible than the modern internet, which is filled with images, videos, and complex interactive elements that often lack proper accessibility features. This challenges the typical assumption that internet accessibility has improved consistently over time. > "Has the internet basically become more challenging over the previous two decades for somebody like you to navigate around? I'm not talking there about the ability to create content. I'm just talking about the ability to consume content. Is the internet more noisy, more difficult to navigate around now than it used to be, let's say 20 years ago?" — **Nathan Wrigley** **3. Elena's argument that the lack of accessibility testing is a universal problem, not just one that affects blind users.** Play from 16:53. Elena points out the hypocrisy of sighted people criticizing her work for lacking visual appeal when their products aren't tested by blind users. This challenges the common assumption that accessibility is primarily a concern for users with disabilities, rather than a general standard of quality assurance. > "And I say, why should you protest if I have no sighted person testing my product before I deploy it publicly? Why should you protest if excited people have not tested my product? And why should I not protest being blind if your product is not tested by blind? It's the same, the same frustration, but they don understand yeah" — **Elena Brescacin** Transcript: Nathan Wrigley Has the internet basically become more challenging over the previous two decades for somebody like you to navigate around? I'm not talking there about the ability to create content. I'm just talking about the ability to consume content. Is the internet more noisy, more difficult to navigate around now than it used to be, let's say 20 years ago? Elena Brescacin Oh, well, it depends on what you want to see because you had much text-based content then, it's true, but obstacles began into 1999 the first visual capture the anti-spam anti-bot control Based on visual text copy this text into a box if you are a human you can see otherwise you are cut off i know exactly what you mean so it was those early captures where you had to be able to Nathan Wrigley See a particular thing. And if you could see it, it was fairly straightforward to carry on. And we all know what captures are. We see them still. Often it's click on pictures of, I don't know, cars or something like that. And without that pass, if you like, you are stifled, aren't you? You can't then go on to do whatever it is. It may be log into a platform, what have you. So that was your first experience, was it? Captures was the first time the internet became something which you could no longer do. Suddenly there was a barrier which hadn't existed before. Elena Brescacin It has started to become common after 1999. The first to implement was Yahoo, Yahoo groups. Then it came on Google, it came everywhere. Now I have, a visual CAPTCHA to change password, a visual CAPTCHA for if you forget the password. I must ask for help every time I have to access that service. Nathan Wrigley Experience. I'm sure that we'll get into slightly more positive things, but I want to spend a moment just discussing what it is that you do when you browse the internet. I mean, clearly it's obvious to you what you do, but it may be that the listeners to this podcast, because we have a very wide listenership and some of them are very experienced. They no doubt think about accessibility for their websites all the time, but there's bound to be other people who really don't know what it is that somebody like you is doing on a day-to Basis to navigate the internet. So can we just describe what it is that you're doing when you're sat at your computer now, and we could talk about different devices like phones or whatever as well, but let's just begin With a computer, a desktop computer. Is it that you are able to navigate the internet without being able to see what's on a screen? How does it work? Elena Brescacin So I do not have a mouse. I do not use a mouse. I have a keyboard, a standard keyboard every person has at home. I use the computer since 1989. I was less than 10 years old then. I was nine, almost 10 years old. And I learned to use the keyboard to get confident with the keyboard. But computers now have some softwares. Some are expensive. Some are free. They are called screen readers. I currently use the paid one it's called jose for windows acronym for job access with the speech we'll add that into the show notes so that everybody can find that thank you yeah sorry Keep going i interrupted it's a software that renders by voice or by braille device there is another device called braille display which is for braillists like me. Otherwise, they use a speech. I use, of course, I use a Windows machine. Another open source software is called NVDA. It's for Windows, non-visual desktop access. I use those software on the computer, on Windows. On Macintosh, I have also a Macintosh, but I use it rarely because it's old. It's about 10 years old. The screen reader there is called VoiceOver. The same that is in my main mobile device, my iPhone. And unfortunately, the open source field, I've talked about Linux, it's less careful network accessibility. There are some users, brave users that use that kind of system, but I find it less immediate, less straightforward. Let's say I have to work. I have to have smooth work, not to go and check if everything works before working. Do you understand me? Nathan Wrigley There's a certain level of dedication, shall we say, which is required to keep going with Linux. Some people have it and other people don't, but it sounds like it's the same for you as it would be for somebody who has site, only a different set of problems, no doubt. Now, when I go to a website, let's say, for example, I visit, I don't know, in my case, the BBC website, which is a news organization in the UK, and they present lots of written content and Lots of video content and lots of images and so on. When I'm looking at that, I navigate my way around by capturing what comes into my eyes and I decide what I want to look at based upon the prompts, text or what have you, and then I find the Link and what have you. It would occur to me that many people would imagine that you as a screen reader user are browsing the same way that I am. In other words, you're looking somehow at the same screen that I am. But that's not true, is it? Because you're kind of in a way navigating the HTML and the way that the website has been constructed on the back end is much more important than it would be for me. So, for example, a font size of something enormous screams title just because it's big. But in your case, the bigness of the text doesn't say anything about its titleness, if you like. And this same thi... ([Time 0:08:19](https://share.snipd.com/snip/8b34da2f-398a-480d-afe5-2edc4279bf63)) - **Navigating with Screen Readers** - Blind users navigate websites using screen readers, which interpret code. - HTML semantics are crucial for accessibility, as screen readers rely on proper code structure. Transcript: Nathan Wrigley Experience. I'm sure that we'll get into slightly more positive things, but I want to spend a moment just discussing what it is that you do when you browse the internet. I mean, clearly it's obvious to you what you do, but it may be that the listeners to this podcast, because we have a very wide listenership and some of them are very experienced. They no doubt think about accessibility for their websites all the time, but there's bound to be other people who really don't know what it is that somebody like you is doing on a day-to Basis to navigate the internet. So can we just describe what it is that you're doing when you're sat at your computer now, and we could talk about different devices like phones or whatever as well, but let's just begin With a computer, a desktop computer. Is it that you are able to navigate the internet without being able to see what's on a screen? How does it work? Elena Brescacin So I do not have a mouse. I do not use a mouse. I have a keyboard, a standard keyboard every person has at home. I use the computer since 1989. I was less than 10 years old then. I was nine, almost 10 years old. And I learned to use the keyboard to get confident with the keyboard. But computers now have some softwares. Some are expensive. Some are free. They are called screen readers. I currently use the paid one it's called jose for windows acronym for job access with the speech we'll add that into the show notes so that everybody can find that thank you yeah sorry Keep going i interrupted it's a software that renders by voice or by braille device there is another device called braille display which is for braillists like me. Otherwise, they use a speech. I use, of course, I use a Windows machine. Another open source software is called NVDA. It's for Windows, non-visual desktop access. I use those software on the computer, on Windows. On Macintosh, I have also a Macintosh, but I use it rarely because it's old. It's about 10 years old. The screen reader there is called VoiceOver. The same that is in my main mobile device, my iPhone. And unfortunately, the open source field, I've talked about Linux, it's less careful network accessibility. There are some users, brave users that use that kind of system, but I find it less immediate, less straightforward. Let's say I have to work. I have to have smooth work, not to go and check if everything works before working. Do you understand me? ([Time 0:10:33](https://share.snipd.com/snip/51b311e5-11ef-4811-9eb6-7e7ae568079b)) - **Website Accessibility Statistics** - Only 20-30% of websites are easily accessible due to intrusive ads and poor design. - Moving ads, image sliders, and missing labels pose significant accessibility challenges. Transcript: Elena Brescacin My God, could I say 20, 30 percent? But the percentage would increase if, for example, some news website, many of them are even based on WordPress, but the problem itself is not WordPress or the CMS. It's many, many, many advert visit they put inside. Moving advertising, moving sliders, images without labels or buttons without labels. I had a very, very high frustration last week because Nathan was trying to interview me with a platform called Squadcast, but it did not give me the control for the microphone, the speakers, The headphones. It was labeled related to chat, help leave the call and so on, but not the setting of microphone. So no one could hear each other. ([Time 0:19:02](https://share.snipd.com/snip/1b38fb0d-4e9a-4e38-b483-96d9a0934d26)) - **Squadcast Accessibility Issues** - Nathan and Elena experienced significant challenges using Squadcast due to accessibility issues. - Basic tasks like selecting headphones and microphones were impossible for Elena without sight. Transcript: Nathan Wrigley Was a profoundly moving experience, actually. And I say that in all of the wrong sense of the word, moving for all the wrong reasons, because I have interviewed hundreds, possibly thousands of people at this point, but I don't believe That I've ever interviewed anybody who has no site. And so you are a first. And so honestly, the guilt I'm feeling is fairly profound. I sent you the link in order to open up the platform in the same way that I do every single time. And then there was just this wave of one frustration after another, and it never stopped, did it? It was just one problem, then another, then another. There's things that we were trying to set up, like selecting the headphones to use, which is typically a one second exercise and selecting the microphone that you wish to use. Again, it's another fairly straightforward exercise if you use it in the way that I do. But we must have spent what, half an hour, something like that just hitting obstacle after obstacle. And it really did give me a profound sense of, well, this is just wrong. Here we are trying to carry out a normal thing. I'm eating up your time and you're eating into my time. And so there's this sort of sense of guilt in both directions that, well, we're wasting each other's time and what have you. All the while, the frustration is building for you because literally nothing that you were hoping to achieve was possible. And so that was the sort of apology at the beginning. We're recording it on another platform today, which thankfully has proven to be an awful lot easier. I'm sure in many respects it's not perfect as well, but we seem to be having a little bit more luck. ([Time 0:20:03](https://share.snipd.com/snip/3903fd27-04b0-4a93-ac63-dfa06ec08464)) - **Internet Reflects Real-World Issues** - The internet, built by humans, reflects real-world accessibility issues. - Elena advocates for greater awareness and action, highlighting online voting challenges and social media image descriptions. Transcript: Nathan Wrigley Thing that I'm getting out of it is that the internet for me basically is a, how to describe this? The internet for me has usually been a place of joy. I go to it and everything, given the nature of what I have available to me, you know, my eyes function, my ears function, my arms and legs are all functioning. And I have a screen which is just at the right height for me and everything. Essentially, everything in my scenario is working in the way that I would hope. And so the internet is this thing of joy. I go there and I can consume film, I can consume audio, I can write blog posts, I can take part in podcast interviews. It's wonderful. But I'm getting the impression that for somebody such as you, the internet is possibly anything other than joyful. I mean, maybe it is in some regards joyful and there's no doubt moments where you're profoundly moved by it and it is wonderful. But I'm guessing also that it is also seriously annoying. It's almost like you have to go the extra mile again and again and again and again to do basic things. And as we move more of ordinary life online, banking goes online, booking things that you want to be delivered to your house goes online, the government paying tax goes online. If it's not set up for you, you're really being penalised for the way that the world is moving. And that must be frustrating. And let all of that out if you want to. You know, is it a frustrating experience, the internet for you? Elena Brescacin I think that internet was given the wrong dimension, make it more utopia than it really is. Because let's remember that internet is made by humans. So if humans do not pay attention to other humans, the issue is the same you can find in the street outside. It's not something worse than real world. It can be amplified if you have, for example, social networks, hate speech. I sometimes ask people to describe photos me because they don't. They publish a screenshot on their post on social network, a screenshot regarding conversation, even politics and so on. But then I do not read the line because it's a screenshot. And if I asked, can you describe the photo for me? They just say something to me. What are you stupid? Did not understand that people make you should not come to the social network. If you're blind, how can you read and can you write? They doubt my identity. And so not to talk about voting, voting elections. I have a person helping me. They come to the cabin with me, the room where we have to vote. They take a pen fill and trace the sign to the right politician or whatever I say. But I have no proof. I have no proof if they have actually voted what I asked them for. ([Time 0:22:27](https://share.snipd.com/snip/7529480b-c566-4f5a-89bf-440294e41be2)) - **Classic Editor Frustrations** - Elena found the classic editor frustrating, preferring to write HTML directly. - She abandoned WordPress due to accessibility issues but later returned. Transcript: Nathan Wrigley In terms of WordPress, let's just shift the conversation to WordPress now. We have the new, well, it's not new anymore. We have the block editor, the site editor, and what have you. And I'm going to link to a few bits and pieces in the show notes. So if you go to wptavern.com and you search for this episode and it will be on the page there, we'll add the links to all of the bits and pieces we're about to discuss. You've written a few articles where you say that WordPress has basically made leaps and bounds and it's become an interface which is much better for you to use. Now, let's just rewind the clock like 10 years or more when we had what is now the classic editor. What was it like as a content writer, a story writer, a blogger who was blind? What was it like back then and how has it improved with the block editor? Elena Brescacin So I have worked into the WordPress system. I knew it in 2003. My profile on WordPress.org is from 2005. And my activity in WordPress was very frustrating at the beginning because I didn't find very easily the controls on the classic editor. Strange because many blind users I know are happy with the classic editor. For me, it's different. Maybe it's me, I don't know. But when classic editor was the only one to use, I was using it in code mode. So I wrote HTML by hand. And in the end, I abandoned the WordPress because it wasn't so good. But at that time, I was talking to the first Italian community manager, let's say. He was called Paolo Valenti. And this guy was the first translator of WordPress. And he just said, remember, you cannot leave WordPress totally. Sooner or later, you'll come back. And he was right. This man, unfortunately, is no longer here. He died by cancer in 2022. ([Time 0:27:04](https://share.snipd.com/snip/4da8ee01-e01f-4013-b072-f8a16a8dccb4)) - **Block Editor Advantages** - The block editor's structure makes content creation and editing easier for blind users. - Features like moving blocks and using markdown improve accessibility. Transcript: Nathan Wrigley In the day when you were using the classic editor, and for many people listening to this podcast, that will be entirely familiar. But for those people who've joined in the last five, six years or so, it may be something that you haven't dabbled with. Yeah, you really did have to, in order to make the full use of it and to add things onto the page, it was possible to write some text and then highlight it and then potentially, I don't know, Select that you wanted it to be a paragraph or what have you. In many ways, it was more straightforward to write the HTML itself, wasn't it? So you would write the P tag and what have you. And this became an incredibly frustrating experience, which probably that kind of experience was the thing which promoted the idea of using a block-based approach where you drop The block in and you begin writing and you can do the forward slash and select the kind of block that you want and you're off to the races. So how is the block editor better than the classic editor? And obviously we know that some of your friends would disagree with that sentiment, but for you, why do you find it better? What does it do differently and better in your experience? Elena Brescacin Because the block is an interface. Basically, it's an interface. And it's from the rules from WordPress core. They say it's accessible, second level accessibility guidelines. I do not enter technical details now, but my opinion on block editor is because you can rapidly move blocks up and down with a key combination. You can even check the style, the colors and so on. That's not my task, but having to select a single block and work on that block without harming the other content. The possibility to add a block manually with the add block function or by markdown. I use markdown syntax for titles, forings not links but many other functions because i do not take my hands away from the keyboard the letters it hadn't really occurred to me that the Nathan Wrigley Block editor kind of locks you into the block that you're currently working on in a way doesn't it so you just said that you can't kind of interfere with the other bits and pieces on a unless You're editing within the confines of that block. So if I'm in a paragraph block and I am writing, I'm in that paragraph. Whereas with the old classic editor, I was in all of the content unless there was some plugin or something like that that was going to inject something. So an accidental keystroke could delete tons of content, including the markup that would have given that portion of the content some context. So, you know, it might have been the H1 tag. You could accidentally interfere with that, delete that somehow. Whereas all of that is then abstracted away inside the block editor. And it's a selection you make, not a heading that you type, I suppose you could choose to do it that way so that's interesting I hadn't really thought about it like that so it creates less Mistakes it's easier to get started and if you were to drop into somebody else's piece of content you'd be able to navigate your way around it more easily right and ([Time 0:29:20](https://share.snipd.com/snip/ef551ddf-0f87-4e5c-a21c-3938578d4b3c)) - **Full Site Editing Empowerment** - Full site editing allows Elena to manage most website content independently. - She hired Gloria for visual styling, but controls content structure herself. Transcript: Elena Brescacin Even the templating shift and the foresight editing has changed my point of view on templating because before I had to hire someone for coding and so on. Now I have also hired a person for helping me with the styling, with graphics and so on. But this woman who has helped me, who spoke to the WordPress Accessibility with me. She has helped me with the styles, but was just teaching me the interface for what's about the content and the structure of the site. It's mine. Gloria just did the colours and the size and what visual and what I cannot verify in person. Okay, ([Time 0:32:31](https://share.snipd.com/snip/9cf61da2-bcda-467e-9341-12a49759f6ce)) - **WordPress Improvements** - WordPress needs more targeted search block functionality within templates. - Template duplication for multilingual sites would improve workflow. Transcript: Nathan Wrigley Does WordPress still have to get right? So although it sounds like you personally are very happy with the block editor and it's brought a lot of benefits that you can make use of. I'm guessing that there's an awful lot of frustration still. What would be the things for the year 2025 that you would hope would be addressed? What are still some of the things which are frustrating about being, well, not just the block editor, being inside a WordPress site in general, but maybe the block editor is a good target To begin? Elena Brescacin Oh, for example, a more targeted search block, because now the search block, you have just the search field and bottom. It could be like that. But when you place that block in a navigation or somewhere, you should be able to choose where it can search. Because if you are, for example, I have my site talking about a real world and a fantasy world, I should be able to say search for content just in the real world and just in the fantasy world. So when they click in the menu, in the search box on the main fantasy world page, they just got content from that category or from that post type. In fact, I have created a multilingual experimental and very basic site by using just Gutenberg and template. They should also give the possibility to duplicate a template because now Gutenberg, you can duplicate post, duplicate page. But if you have, for example, I have Italian headers and English headers. I would like to be able to clone the Italian header and then translate the content inside. ([Time 0:34:30](https://share.snipd.com/snip/672d879a-170d-4010-98f7-35b80ec0c6be)) - **WordPress Accessibility Team** - WordPress is the best CMS for backend accessibility, particularly with full-site editing. - The accessibility team needs more people, especially skilled coders, for testing. Transcript: Nathan Wrigley But how do you feel as a whole WordPress does? Do you feel it is at the forefront? Do you think it's lagging behind other platforms that you may have played with? Elena Brescacin WordPress for now is the best CMS for accessibility in backend with its fullsite editing. But I think it has to become more consistent. Accessibility team should get more people inside, I think, for testing, for coders, skilled coders, because I feel that it's not being neglected willingly, but because a few people Are working in there. ([Time 0:37:18](https://share.snipd.com/snip/dd4871ba-c020-49b0-a4d9-ef2fe76e3c4f)) - **Event Accessibility** - Real-world events are challenging for blind attendees due to visual cues. - Online events like WordPress Accessibility Day offer better accessibility. Transcript: Nathan Wrigley Also sounds like you've been involved in real world events plus some online events as well. I think you mentioned WordCamps that you'd attended as well. And I was wondering from an accessibility point how they have been. But also you mentioned the WP Accessibility Day as well. Do you just want to mention your participation in those? Let's start with WordPress events. How have they been from your perspective? Elena Brescacin Accessibility, unfortunately, it's very difficult. Real world events are very difficult for accessibility because I need a person helping me to move through location, the work camp locations. It's quite difficult without help. There are many information that are conveyed by colours. The black signal is the track one, the white is track two, for example, and so on, or you have the locations. There are not many explanations. I must ask for help to move across tables on the contributor days. Now I am trying to apply to WorldCamp Europe 2025. I don't know how it goes. I went to the WordCamp 2023 and to WordPress Core Day 2024. I got help from people there, but I had a person assisting me because otherwise I could not manage to go to the WordCamp alone. But the WordPress Accessibility Day was online. ([Time 0:39:04](https://share.snipd.com/snip/371ba62d-2883-4374-8bb3-96a39719aa30))