#154 – Anna Hurko on Managing a Growing Plugin Business ![rw-book-cover](https://wsrv.nl/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwptavern.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2021%2F02%2F1045657e-7764-4ccf-8fa2-0f38b64f4fd8.jpg&w=100&h=100) ## Metadata - Author: [[WP Tavern]] - Full Title: #154 – Anna Hurko on Managing a Growing Plugin Business - Category: #podcasts - URL: https://share.snipd.com/episode/d9dfca35-6573-4d45-9abf-27c28284722d ## Document Notes ## Highlights - **Two Names** - Anna Hurko, CEO of Crocoblock, is known by some as Vanessa due to a nickname she chose during her time in a support role. - This nickname stuck, and even now, colleagues and friends often refer to her as Vanessa. Transcript: Anna Hurko The beginning. I have started to work as a supporter and it was like tradition to choose the nickname support agent and i decided like okay i'm already anna i want something other but which will suit Me and i decided to be vanessa and for a few years i was vanessa but somehow all my colleagues remembered me as vanessa and we used it till now even if i don't need it anymore and that's how It works but now i feel more vanessa than anna whole work. So even financial departments, they say Vanessa, not Anna. Even the ex-co who are not anymore working with me, but they're my friends. Even their children say Auntie Vanessa. So several ([Time 0:03:09](https://share.snipd.com/snip/00a8b282-8f61-414d-8ecc-eb1ba64a6899)) - **Relocation** - Anna Hurko relocated from Ukraine to Romania in September 2023. - This move facilitates easier travel to WordCamps and WordPress meetups across Europe. Transcript: Nathan Wrigley You mentioned at the outset that you are from the Ukraine originally, but just before we hit record, you talked about the fact that you are no longer in the Ukraine, but maybe that would Be an interesting way to begin this podcast properly. I'm guessing that from the description living in the south of Ukraine, that you moved against your will, possibly. You've had to move because of the situation over there. Anna Hurko So the three years of the situation, I was in Ukraine. I just moved in September after World Camp US. I just didn't come home and I stayed in Europe because I'm trying to visit more World Camps and WordPress meetups. And if you're in Ukraine, it takes too long time to get out because we don't have planes and you need to go with a bus to Europe and to take plane. And every country in Europe takes me two days to move. So I decided to stay in Romania because it's kind of in the center and I can visit more events. So last year I visited about seven board camps because I want to go closer to community, to customers, to speak offline with them. And ([Time 0:05:14](https://share.snipd.com/snip/53beb301-b668-42e1-977e-c070316224e5)) - **Ukrainian Tech** - Ukraine's strong web development presence isn't solely due to robust educational programs. - Limited traditional job opportunities have driven individuals to self-educate and pursue IT careers, leading to a thriving tech sector. Transcript: Nathan Wrigley The situation in Ukraine in terms of web development and tech, it always seems like Ukraine punches above its weight. I don't know if there's a particular kind of, I don't know, like drive in school or anything like that to head towards technology and software development. But it seems when I look at the about page of a lot of products, especially in the WordPress space, but technology more generally, it always feels like Ukraine is overrepresented with The amount of companies. I don't know if that's something that you think is true or if that is true. Anna Hurko It is true, but I think it's not because of good reasons. Somehow we didn't have good factories and job places. And web was very easy for people to just find a job and to have good salary because a lot of companies working is outsourced or they have customers from US and Europe. For example, like KrokaBlock, we don't work with Ukrainian markets. Actually, we work with Europe and US. And it's not something we have good studying in school and university. Unfortunately, it should develop better. For example, I have studied computer science, but it was like old technologies in university. Just because we don't have normal working places, people starting to self-educate, they work in IT. And somehow it's very good now. So even government programs, they all digitalized. So from my phone, I can pay taxes, I can marry now from phone, but only with Ukrainians, of course. I can get any document I need. I don't need to go anywhere. So now, for example, I'm outside of Ukraine, but I can have any document, new driver, license, I can sell a car with one application. So it's somehow built in us. Nathan Wrigley So the propensity ([Time 0:06:19](https://share.snipd.com/snip/d238ad3f-db64-4d41-ac2c-9931d6d61cc7)) - **From Support to Leadership** - Anna Hurko's background in computer science facilitated her transition into WordPress support. - Within three months, she became a team leader, showcasing her technical skills and soft skills honed through youth politics. Transcript: Nathan Wrigley Okay, yeah, it's a nice idea that the CEO of the company actually has a background in technology. I think that's interesting to be able to speak to the developers on their level. How did you start in the WordPress space then? I think you said that you started working with the support side of things over at Crockerblock. And if that's the case, going from support to where you are now, CEO, that's a pretty big move. How did it all begin? Anna Hurko First, I need to say that I didn't realize it's a big move before attending WordCamps, because it's for me everyday life and it was kind of 10-11 years. So when I have started computer science by side I was in NGO and youth politic and I thought I will never have anything with programming languages or with IT or even with websites because We had website building in university as well but it was you know when it was only tables and HTML and so on. And the teacher was so awful. So I thought I will never do it. And now I'm here. So after I finished with youth politic, I have started to just looking for a job which need English language. So because I didn't want IT and I sent a CV for everyone with English knowledge and they picked up me in the holding company as a support member because I knew English. But somehow, as I knew computer science, it was very easy for me to deal with WordPress. And in three months, I was already my chief team leader and I have started to mentor people and so on. So I have started with support, but my background with computer science helped me to be very good, very fast. So till ([Time 0:08:46](https://share.snipd.com/snip/73a67c47-84ee-4985-b99b-6b32312c7f8b)) - **Crocoblock's Origins** - Crocoblock began as a small team within TemplateMonster, developing frameworks to streamline template creation. - The effectiveness of these tools led to their commercialization as plugins, marking the inception of Crocoblock. Transcript: Nathan Wrigley I think. And what's the structure of Crocoblock then? How many people do you have deployed into that project? If you're the CEO, I guess you're at the top of that pyramid. Anna Hurko How many people are working with you, for you, however you want to describe it we have started six years ago with five people five seven people we don't know exact number all of us have Different story of it now it's 85 the story begins when we were in template monster and we have built templates in some point we had new people for it and we needed more amount of it and so On. And we have started to build frameworks to speed up the process and to have less errors because if every coder developer makes it in own style, we have too much issues with it. And then we started to sell it. So because it was product for ourselves, but it was too good. And we have started to like, okay, can we just start to sell plugins? And then we have started it. It was enough, seven people. It was developers, one support member, and a guy who was before me, the CEO. Nathan Wrigley So ([Time 0:12:06](https://share.snipd.com/snip/04b3cd1c-41c1-4b6f-9b1e-15da2034fa4d)) - **Evolution of Crocoblock** - Crocoblock's extensive plugin suite reflects its evolution, initially focusing on static design before shifting to dynamic websites. - The "Crocoblock" name predates Gutenberg, leading to two brand names: Crocoblock and JetPlugins. Transcript: Nathan Wrigley If I go to the Crocoblock website, which is crocoblock.com, and I look at the products that you've got, it opens up a fairly giant mega menu. And there's literally dozens of things in there. When I first heard the word CrocoBlock, firstly, I assumed that it was plural, that it was CrocoBlocks. And my assumption was that, OK, that'll be a suite of WordPress blocks. So you'll download a plugin and then you'll have a bunch of blocks that you can put into the block editor. And you go to the website and you realize, no, that's really not what it is. That's not even close to what it is. So what is it that you're offering into the market? What are the different products that I can find in your product section? I mean, there's too many to talk about, but maybe just pick your favorites or a few that are particularly popular. Anna Hurko Yeah, so short answer as well, it will be JetEngine and JetSmart filters. But the issue is that we have invented the Krakablog name before Gutenberg. There were no blocks. It was Krakablog. And we have it because it was an old project that had already some traffic and we left it. And now we have actually two names, Krakablog and JetPlugins, because all of our plugins are JetPlugins. And the issue is that the project was started with supporters and developers. We didn't have a marketer for a few years. So I have a head of marketing only last one year. That means we didn't start about the things like name. And now we have a lot of difficulties with it. And when we have started Crocoblock, we have the first document with idea about what Crocoblock is. And it was one sentence that will make us laugh for even now. Crocoblock is not about dynamic. It's only about static and nice design. And what is fun about it, because it's now only about dynamic plugins. So now we have a big menu with a lot of plugins because it's like our history and we can't delete them because people use them. But our main focus is on dynamic websites. And that means JetEngine, which is a competitor for icf but it has much more inside jet smart filters jet sim core and all plugins which helps you to create complex structure to websites Like real estate multi-blender and so on you can track user data and you can manage what to show to different users or see the user behavior and connect to it yeah there really ([Time 0:13:00](https://share.snipd.com/snip/bd2ba727-19ef-456d-a993-ed46249b7e35)) - **Core Focus** - While Crocoblock initially focused on Elementor integration, they prioritize WordPress core compatibility. - All main plugins work with Gutenberg, Bricks, and Elementor, ensuring flexibility for users. Transcript: Nathan Wrigley Mentioned at the start that you began the business with Elementor in mind. And Elementor, if you haven't been keeping a track, dear listener, Elementor really has had just the most astronomical growth since its inception. And I think really is singularly responsible for a large proportion of WordPress's rise. Now, I don't know if that is the sort of page builder of choice that you've hooked yourself into or if you've got into the sort of more WordPress-y way of doing things. And what I mean by that is, you know, the block editor and full site editing and things like that, because that's obviously where the core of the WordPress project is focusing its energy. But obviously on the periphery of that, you've got all these different page builders. What do you do with all of that? Do you hunker down and stick with Elementor or do you decide you're going to go with like the core way of doing things? How does that all fit in? Anna Hurko So we, of course, love elementor and it helps us in the beginning so much we have the same philosophy with elementor in a lot of things like treating customers and so on and i think it was Right choice to start with but once it was announced the gutenberg project and then wordpress started with gutenberg the same in half a year or something like this we have started to Rebuild our plugins. So all our main plugins, not design plugins, but all our main plugins for dynamic websites. So when the Gutenberg project was started, we rebuilt them and they all are working with Gutenberg as with Bricksnow and Elementor. So Elementor is just one of the builders customers needs. And then Gutenberg is a core. So we have rebuilt inside the plugin the code and the way it can work with Gutenberg. And we can easily add other integrations. And we always perform something with WordPress and Gutenberg native features. It's in the core. So, of course, Elementor grew up. So the company itself, it's 20 years in market. And we have all the 20 years experience. And we know it can shine as a star and it can die next day. But WordPress, we believe, will stay for a long time with us. That's why all our main plugins are built for WordPress and block editor. And we try to connect it more natively. The issues we have, it takes too long time. For some of our projects, for example, we have Jetsub Core. It's a plugin which builds templates for archive pages, for commerce card, profile page. So all sorts of pages, you can make the structure with it. And for some time, we haven't developed it because we were waiting for FSEA, for some new features from WordPress itself. But it takes too long time. And we didn't want to build something that WordPress will build natively. Or you need to wait, or you build it, and then users will have it twice. Once in Crocablock and then in WordPress. So we have these issues, but we are trying to work around. For example, we have JetStyleManager. It's a free plugin. It was created specifically for Gutenberg, because when we have made integration and compatibility for our plugins, Gutenberg was very new, and it didn't have a lot of style options. And we have built separate plugins just for Gutenberg to make styles possible. And now users have this solution from every plugin provider different, and we will rebuild it because WordPress have changed and so on. So what I wanted to say, and it took a long time, if you use Bricks, Elementor, and we will add some other integrations for builder, WordPress is in core and we would never ignore it. We are part ([Time 0:18:45](https://share.snipd.com/snip/7fa8d1eb-9274-472e-a010-c38f98aa97b3)) - **Untapped Potential** - Crocoblock hasn't experienced market stagnation due to its prior lack of focused marketing efforts. - Recent marketing initiatives have unveiled substantial growth potential, indicating an untapped customer base. Transcript: Nathan Wrigley And over the last decade or more, we've just seen the line of market share for WordPress go up and up and up. And if I was a product maker in the WordPress space, that would have made me feel great. I've got a credible product. It works. We've got a load of people using it. And look, the amount of people who might use it just keeps rising. And then we get to about 43% of the web, whatever that means. I mean, we can ignore exactly what that means, but the point is the line just kept going on. More recently, there's more discussion about stagnation in the marketplace and maybe that line tapers a little bit and it goes flat. Or, and I don't really want to get into that, we've got this period of change at the moment. There's a lot of politics inside of WordPress. I'm just wondering what your thoughts are on where the business is pitched. The fact that you're using WordPress is great, but do you have any concerns about the market share sort of stagnating? Or do you feel that you still have a massive audience in WordPress that you're still yet to reach? Anna Hurko We have different periods. For example, last year is very challenging for us because Cocoa Block started when we started. It grows in geometrical progress. It was very quick growing. And then, of course, as a five, six years project, you have not so big changes in your revenue, but it's good. It works. And last few months, we have very good results. So I think we don't feel that stagnation so much because we have started Crocoblock without marketing. It was selling itself. And of course, with help of community influencers. And we have just started last year to build a brand and to work with marketing. It means we have a lot of potential yet. So if market is stagnating, or is still field for us to develop our customer base and so on, because we didn't use it before. You know what I mean? So if you haven't selling in right way, and now we have started, so we still have a lot of customers. Nathan Wrigley Oh, I ([Time 0:23:44](https://share.snipd.com/snip/392750c8-5135-4f8a-8845-2a75d0e68302)) - **Target Audience** - Crocoblock primarily targets agencies and freelance developers with considerable WordPress experience. - The platform's complexity and learning curve make it less suitable for individuals with only a few websites. Transcript: Nathan Wrigley So where are you pitching that then? So if I just rewind and re-ask that question, who is your audience? Who are the people that are using this? Is this a product which is used by agencies to deploy to their client websites? Do you find that you are being purchased by, I don't know, people who've just got one or two websites? Maybe it's just a solopreneur, something like that. Is there a segment of the market that you identify with? Anna Hurko Yes, of course. First, when we have started, we were growing just naturally and we didn't ask ourselves questions. Now we had made a lot of researchers and it's the same answer. Our customers are agencies and freelance developers. They're about 30, 35, 40 years old with five, six years experience. The issue is that KrokaBlock is quite a complicated solution. It gives you total freedom. You can build from admin panel. And as we have query builder where you can use SQL and other complicated stuff, you don't need to go to database. You can reach your SQL database from the admin panel or complex relations and so on. But to use it, even from admin panel, by clicking buttons, you need to understand how it works. The learning curve is complicated. And our developers building product quicker is that all other 80 people can produce content for it and tutorials. That means if you need one website, it's not a marketing answer. But if you need one, two websites, you don't need Crocodblock. It will be too complicated for ([Time 0:27:18](https://share.snipd.com/snip/ae95e923-4709-45b2-8929-0a00ae745b4e))