'Aye eye' - This Week in WordPress #361 - CourtneyR.dev's 2nd Brain

'Aye eye' - This Week in WordPress #361 🔗 **Source:** ['Aye eye' - This Week in WordPress #361](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxOewLY-6X8) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [wordpress, podcast, ai, accessibility] > author: Nathan Wrigley > source: WP Builds > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxOewLY-6X8 > date created: 2024-01-15 14:30 > > # 🏷️ Title: 'Aye eye' - This Week in WordPress #361 >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Review accessibility audit methodology — prioritize user impact over developer convenience #accessibility - [H2] Implement collaborative editing testing — try Gutenberg plugin real-time editing feature #wordpress - [H3] Explore partnership opportunities — consider strategic alliances for plugin/business growth #business ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [SEMrush Accessibility SEO Study](https://www.semrush.com/blog/accessibility-seo-performance/) - [Katie Keith Plugin Sales Analysis](https://barn2.com/blog/plugin-sales-down-2025/) - [Joe Dolson Accessibility Severity Guide](https://joedolson.com/2025/01/judging-severity-and-accessibility-issues/) ## 📝 Summary - WordPress podcast covering accessibility, AI impact, and business trends - Key focus on accessibility improvements driving SEO performance and business value - Discussion of declining plugin sales but opportunities through partnerships - Collaborative editing features becoming production-ready in WordPress - Balanced perspective on AI challenges and WordPress future opportunities ## 📖 Main Content This WordPress podcast episode covers multiple key areas affecting the WordPress ecosystem in 2026. The panel discusses breakthrough research showing direct correlation between accessibility compliance and improved SEO performance, including 27% more keyword rankings and significant authority score boosts. They examine declining plugin sales across the industry with strategic responses including irreplaceable product development and strategic partnerships. The conversation addresses AI concerns with a bullish outlook on WordPress future, citing market dominance, economic ecosystem strength, technical flexibility, and continued developer opportunities. Additionally, they highlight WordPress collaborative editing reaching production-ready status through the Gutenberg plugin. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/wxOewLY-6X8?t=0) — [H1] Show Introduction and Panel Setup - Key idea: WordPress podcast episode 361 with accessibility focus - Evidence: "Nathan Wrigley joined by Michelle Fchett, Mark Benzakane, and An Mika Blett" #### ⏱️ [06:45](https://youtu.be/wxOewLY-6X8?t=405) — [H2] Accessibility SEO Performance Study - Key idea: Research proves accessibility compliance directly improves search rankings - Evidence: "27% more keywords ranked with accessibility improvements" #### ⏱️ [12:30](https://youtu.be/wxOewLY-6X8?t=750) — [H1] Judging Accessibility Issue Severity - Key idea: Prioritize accessibility fixes by user impact, not developer convenience - Evidence: "Tackle critical content first, then frequency of occurrence, then ease of fix" #### ⏱️ [18:15](https://youtu.be/wxOewLY-6X8?t=1095) — [H2] Plugin Sales Decline Analysis - Key idea: Industry-wide plugin sales down 17.8% in 2025, new customers affected most - Evidence: "Katie Keith's data shows renewals stayed solid but new customers dropped" #### ⏱️ [25:40](https://youtu.be/wxOewLY-6X8?t=1540) — [H1] Irreplaceable Plugin Strategy - Key idea: Plugins with unique value propositions maintained or grew sales - Evidence: "The plugins that continue to have solid sales were the ones people consider irreplaceable" #### ⏱️ [32:10](https://youtu.be/wxOewLY-6X8?t=1930) — [H2] Partnership Success in Plugin Business - Key idea: Strategic partnerships showed strongest correlation with sales growth - Evidence: "Real success seems to have come out with partnering with people" #### ⏱️ [38:50](https://youtu.be/wxOewLY-6X8?t=2330) — [H1] WordPress Collaborative Editing Ready - Key idea: Google Docs-style editing now works smoothly in WordPress - Evidence: "Steve Burge: For the first time, it works great right out of the box" #### ⏱️ [42:20](https://youtu.be/wxOewLY-6X8?t=2540) — [H2] Big Bite Agency Joins WP Engine - Key idea: 15-year enterprise agency transitions from client services to product development - Evidence: "Gradually shift from client services to product development for larger scale solutions" #### ⏱️ [46:35](https://youtu.be/wxOewLY-6X8?t=2795) — [H1] Bullish WordPress 2026 Outlook - Key idea: Four strong reasons for WordPress optimism despite AI concerns - Evidence: "Market dominance, economic ecosystem, technical flexibility, developer opportunities" #### ⏱️ [52:15](https://youtu.be/wxOewLY-6X8?t=3135) — [H2] AI Assistant vs Replacement Perspective - Key idea: AI works best as creative assistant for unexpected solutions - Evidence: "Corey Mass uses AI for unexpected things like Brian Eno's oblique strategies" #### ⏱️ [58:40](https://youtu.be/wxOewLY-6X8?t=3520) — [H1] Plugin Team AI Overwhelm - Key idea: WordPress plugin review team struggling with AI-generated submissions - Evidence: "Plugin team member: tired of reading AI generated email responses" ## 📚 References - [SEMrush Accessibility SEO Study](https://www.semrush.com/blog/accessibility-seo-performance/) - [Joe Dolson Accessibility Severity](https://joedolson.com/2025/01/judging-severity-and-accessibility-issues/) - [Katie Keith Plugin Sales Analysis](https://barn2.com/blog/plugin-sales-down-2025/) - [Open Channels FM Grade Interview](https://openchannels.fm/) - [Big Bite WP Engine Announcement](https://bigbite.net/) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Accessibility compliance directly correlates with better SEO performance, with studies showing 27% more keyword rankings and improved authority scores - Plugin sales declined industry-wide in 2025, but strategic partnerships and irreplaceable product positioning showed strongest resilience - WordPress collaborative editing has reached production-ready status through the Gutenberg plugin, enabling Google Docs-style real-time collaboration ## 📰 Newsletter **WordPress Weekly: Accessibility Drives SEO Success, Plugin Market Shifts** Hey WordPress community! 👋 Big news this week: breakthrough research proves what accessibility advocates have long claimed - building accessible sites directly improves your search rankings. The SEMrush study of 10,000 websites shows accessible sites get 27% more keyword visibility. This isn't just good ethics, it's smart business. **What This Means for You:** - Prioritize accessibility fixes by user impact, not developer convenience - Focus on critical content access first, then frequently occurring issues - Consider accessibility as website hygiene, not compliance checkbox **Plugin Business Reality Check:** Sales are down 17.8% industry-wide, but don't panic! Successful strategies include building "irreplaceable" products and forming strategic partnerships. Katie Keith's transparent analysis shows partnerships had the strongest correlation with growth. **Exciting Development:** WordPress collaborative editing is production-ready! Try the Gutenberg plugin's real-time editing feature for Google Docs-style collaboration. **Resources:** - [Learn WordPress Accessibility](https://learn.wordpress.org/tutorial/introduction-to-web-accessibility/) - [Gutenberg Plugin](https://wordpress.org/plugins/gutenberg/) - [WP-CLI](https://wp-cli.org/) for accessibility testing automation Stay accessible, stay growing! 🚀 ## ✅ Action Items #### WordPress - Core: Integrate collaborative editing feedback, improve accessibility defaults - Accessibility: Promote business case data, create severity assessment tools - Plugins: Address AI submission volume, maintain human review quality - Documentation: Create partnership guide templates, accessibility audit checklists - Community: Share positive AI integration examples, counter doom narratives #### OSPO - Developer Support: Accessibility training integration, AI tool evaluation - Community Engagement: Partner with accessibility organizations - Strategic Alignment: Track accessibility compliance KPIs #### Community - Maintainers: Implement accessibility-first development practices - Contributors: Focus on user impact prioritization in issue triage - Sponsors: Support accessibility tooling development ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Accessibility improvements create compound SEO benefits beyond initial rankings - Strategic partnerships provide more sustainable growth than organic search optimization - AI tools work better as creative assistants than task replacements - WordPress collaborative editing will accelerate enterprise adoption ### 📊 Methodology - Analyze SEMrush accessibility correlation data across different website types - Survey plugin developers on partnership strategies and outcomes - Test collaborative editing features in real agency workflows ### ❓ Questions - How can WordPress core better integrate accessibility by default? - What partnership models work best for different plugin niches? - How will collaborative editing change WordPress agency workflows? ### 🔮 Future Research - Long-term accessibility SEO impact tracking - AI integration patterns in successful WordPress businesses - Enterprise collaborative editing adoption metrics ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Accessibility becomes primary SEO strategy, partnerships essential for plugin success - Policy: WordPress accessibility standards need business case emphasis - Security: AI-generated submissions require enhanced review processes - Education: Accessibility training must include business value proposition - Funding: Accessibility tooling deserves increased investment priority ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: Grade 10 #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: SEO correlation charts, plugin sales graphs, accessibility audit screenshots - Improve: Collaborative editing workflow diagrams, partnership structure visuals #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full podcast audio with panel discussion - Improve: Accessibility screen reader demonstrations, AI tool comparisons #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Clear terminology definitions, business case analogies - Improve: Step-by-step accessibility audit narratives #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Plugin testing recommendations, collaborative editing trials - Improve: Hands-on accessibility audit checklists, partnership worksheets #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: SEO correlation data, plugin sales analysis timelines - Improve: Decision trees for accessibility prioritization, ROI calculations #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Panel discussion format, community feedback integration - Improve: Accessibility user testing guides, partnership networking frameworks #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Individual research links, self-assessment opportunities - Improve: Personal accessibility audit worksheets, reflection prompts #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Organic growth vs artificial patterns discussion - Improve: Ecosystem thinking about WordPress sustainability ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear heading structure, podcast transcript available - Improve: Time-stamped navigation, detailed alt text for charts #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard YouTube player controls - Improve: Custom skip-to-topic functionality #### Contrast and readability - Present: Standard podcast player interface - Improve: High contrast mode for show notes #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript provided, audio available - Improve: Synchronized captions, downloadable transcripts ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: International panel perspectives, global WordPress focus - Improve: More diverse geographic examples, multilingual resources #### Inclusive language - Present: Clear technical explanations, defined jargon - Improve: Plain language summaries, avoid cultural idioms #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Structured format, clear timestamps - Improve: Summary bullets, consistent navigation #### Representation - Present: Diverse panel backgrounds, varied expertise areas - Improve: More underrepresented voice inclusion ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: SEMrush data analysis provides solid statistical foundation - Inductive strength: Plugin sales trends generalized from specific case studies - Causal reasoning: Accessibility-SEO correlation well-established - Analogical strength: AI assistant comparison to Brian Eno cards effective #### Fallacies - Survivorship bias: Focus on successful partnerships may miss failed attempts - Hasty generalization: Plugin sales trends from limited sample size #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Informative and optimistic, balancing concerns with opportunities ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No concerning denial patterns identified - Attack: No attacks on accusers present - Reverse victim/offender: No victim/offender reversals noted - Emotional cues and rhetoric: Professional, supportive discussion tone throughout ## 🎯 Conclusion This WordPress podcast episode provides valuable insights into the intersection of accessibility, business strategy, and technology evolution. The key takeaway is that accessibility improvements drive measurable SEO benefits while strategic partnerships offer the strongest path to business growth in challenging market conditions. WordPress remains well-positioned for future success through technical flexibility and strong ecosystem foundations, with collaborative editing representing significant progress toward enterprise capabilities. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad Purpose: Stage CEE units that become Literature notes. Split level: H3 ### [H1] Accessibility compliance correlates with SEO performance > [!quote] ['Aye eye' - This Week in WordPress #361](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxOewLY-6X8) by [[Nathan Wrigley]] via [[WP Builds]]. Published 2026-01-12. Accessed 2024-01-15. > "27% more keywords ranked with accessibility improvements" SEMrush study of 10,000 websites proves business case for accessibility investment. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxOewLY-6X8#H1) #accessibility #seo #articleseed ID:rw_001 ### [H2] Strategic partnerships drive plugin business success > [!quote] ['Aye eye' - This Week in WordPress #361](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxOewLY-6X8) > "Real success seems to have come out with partnering with people" Katie Keith's analysis shows partnerships as strongest growth correlation during industry decline. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxOewLY-6X8#H2) #business #partnerships ID:rw_002 --- ### 🔖 Atomic Split Pad (Zettel Candidates) Purpose: Promote reusable claims into Atomic notes. Split level: H4 #### [Z1] Accessibility fixes should prioritize user impact over developer convenience - Applies to all web development accessibility audits - Referenced at timestamp 12:30 and Joe Dolson methodology - Links: [[Accessibility-Strategy]] [[User-Centered-Design]] #### [Z2] AI works better as creative assistant than task replacement - Relevant for all AI integration strategies - Demonstrated through Corey Mass Brian Eno card example at 52:15 - Links: [[AI-Strategy]] [[Creative-Process]] --- ### ✏️ Fleeting Queue Purpose: Capture quick actions for Fleeting notes. - [F1] Test collaborative editing in Gutenberg plugin — wpbuilds.com/live #fleeting #wordpress - [F2] Review accessibility audit methodology with Joe Dolson approach — business impact focus #fleeting #accessibility - [F3] Research partnership opportunities for plugin/service businesses --- ## Full Transcript [00:04] It's time for this week in WordPress [00:06] episode number 361 entitled A I. It was [00:12] recorded on Monday the 12th of Jan 2026. [00:16] My name is Nathan Wrigley and today I'm [00:18] joined by co-host Michelle Fchett but [00:20] also by Mark Benzakane and by an Mika [00:23] Blett. It's a WordPress podcast so we [00:25] spend quite a lot of time talking about [00:27] WordPress. We kick things off though [00:29] with a conversation about well lots and [00:32] lots of articles related to [00:34] accessibility. An's expertise is in that [00:37] area and so we bring quite a few bits [00:38] and pieces to bear in the accessibility [00:40] space. I also mentioned a show that I [00:42] did recently with Joe Doulson and [00:45] promoted that a little bit as well. And [00:46] then we get onto WordPressy stuff, [00:48] collaborative editing, the fact that Big [00:50] Bite has joined WP Engine. We also talk [00:54] about why in the era of AI it is still [00:57] possible to be bullish about the [00:59] opportunities for WordPresses. There's a [01:01] few articles floating around about that. [01:03] And then the plug-in team seems to be [01:05] delued by AI plug-in submissions which [01:08] is good but also has its drawbacks [01:11] because of the toll on the humans trying [01:12] to keep all of that thing going. Then [01:14] there's a whole new section all about [01:16] the different things that are coming in [01:18] the WordPress space. So there's a few [01:19] new projects. There's something called [01:21] Phantom WP, WP Falcon, and Dave Gray has [01:25] got a new product as well. There's loads [01:27] more. We talk about WordPress events [01:29] that are coming up in the next few weeks [01:30] as well, and it's all coming up next on [01:33] this week in WordPress. [01:36] This episode of the WP Builds podcast is [01:39] brought to you by GoDaddy Pro, the home [01:42] of manage WordPress hosting that [01:43] includes free domain, SSL, and 24/7 [01:47] support. Bundle that with the hub by [01:50] GoDaddy Pro to unlock more free benefits [01:53] to manage multiple sites in one place. [01:56] Invoice clients and get 30% off new [01:59] purchases. Find out more at [02:01] go.me/wpuilds. [02:06] Hello. Good morning, good afternoon, [02:08] good evening. What was going on there, [02:10] Mark? You were uh you were up something. [02:13] Uh good morning, good evening, good [02:14] afternoon, wherever you are in the world [02:16] watching this. That's very very nice to [02:18] have you with us. Um, as I always say, [02:21] this work this whole show works really [02:22] well when people drop comments in and [02:25] um, and Taco's already put one in. Thank [02:27] you, Taco. He's singing the theme tune [02:29] and I have no words, Taco. That theme [02:31] tune is the worst tune imaginable and I [02:34] just can't be bothered to change it. So, [02:36] anyway, there you are. He says, "Hi [02:39] y'all from a virtually snowless vegan [02:43] again after a week of beautiful white [02:45] chaos." Yeah, our snow's all gone sadly [02:47] now. It rained and um yeah, bit sad. It [02:50] is a bit sad. [02:52] >> Um but yeah, so we are going to I'm just [02:54] going to go through the sort of like the [02:55] housekeeping bits and then I'll [02:56] introduce our fabulous panel. So the [02:59] first thing to say is that if you are [03:01] watching this live and you would like I [03:03] don't know like your friends to join in [03:04] uh pause the video or just you know open [03:06] up a new tab whatever it may be and the [03:09] best place to send them is right there [03:12] being supported by an um go to [03:14] wpbuilds.comlive [03:18] once more wpbuilds.comlive [03:21] if you go there on a desktop you'll have [03:23] the Google like YouTube comments on the [03:25] right um and if you're on a mobile it'll [03:27] fall underneath the video. However, if [03:29] you don't have a Google account or you [03:31] don't like using a Google account, click [03:32] on the video itself. Top right is a [03:35] little black button which says live [03:36] chat, you can click that and you don't [03:38] need to be logged into anything at all. [03:40] So, yeah, wpbuilds.com [03:44] forwardlive. [03:46] So, so, so let's uh let's go around the [03:49] houses and say hi to our panelists. I'll [03:51] start off with our co-host, our frequent [03:54] co-host. I can't do it. I I can't manage [03:56] it. There is Michelle. Hello, Michelle. [03:59] >> Hello. Hello. [04:00] >> Michelle is um Michelle's got a little [04:02] bit of a poorly voice at the moment, so [04:04] she's going to sound a little bit [04:05] different, but I hope that you're uh [04:07] you're able to contribute. If you need [04:08] to if you need to take five and go and [04:10] get some Alka-Seltzer or whatever it is [04:13] >> uh that you take, feel free. You've [04:15] shortened your bio, I think, have you? [04:17] Or did I shorten it? I can't remember. [04:18] Anyway, [04:19] >> I think I shortened it a bit. Yeah. [04:20] >> Yeah. Thank you. Michelle Fchette is the [04:22] executive director of Post Status. And [04:24] in addition to the work over there, [04:26] Michelle is the podcast barista at WP [04:28] Coffee Talk, co-founder of [04:29] Underrepresented in Tech, creator of WP [04:31] Speakers and WP Career Pages. She also [04:35] co-founded sponsor EWP Speed Network [04:37] Online. She writes books. She's an [04:40] author, influencer, and frequent [04:42] organizer and speaker at WordPress and [04:43] tech events. Living outside of [04:45] Rochester, New York, she is an avid [04:48] nature photographer. And you can learn [04:50] more about Michelle at meetmleonline. [04:55] >> I I should add speaker of the year for [04:58] women tech global. [04:59] >> Oh. Yeah, that's that's pretty cool. I [05:03] um I How long when did you get that? Was [05:05] that towards the end of last year, I [05:06] think, wasn't it? [05:07] >> It was. I also received influential [05:09] women uh of 2025 award as well. So, I'm [05:13] looking at my new plaques. [05:14] >> Oh, nice. Nice. You don't have them in [05:15] the background. You're just keeping them [05:17] in front of you, are you? [05:18] >> Yeah. I mean, yeah, they're all in front [05:20] of me. [05:20] >> They're there. [05:21] >> That was that was the space. It inspires [05:23] me to continue to do better. [05:24] >> Yeah. Nice. Well, congratulations for [05:26] all that. And um let's hope that your [05:28] voice holds out for the rest of the [05:30] episode. Okay. [05:31] >> So much better than it was. Yeah. [05:32] >> Well, that's good. I'm pleased to hear [05:33] that. Yeah, that's good. Over there is [05:36] Mark. Mark Ben. How you doing, Mark? [05:38] >> I'm doing fantastic. [05:41] >> Mark always comes on at like 3 in the [05:43] morning or something. I have no idea. [05:45] >> It's a ridic It's a ridiculous time. [05:47] It's I don't even I have no words. I [05:50] like But you're an early bird, right? [05:52] >> You just enjoy getting up. [05:53] >> The older the older I get, the less of [05:55] an early bird I'm becoming. [05:59] >> That feeling. [06:00] >> I'm not going to lie. I I I used to be [06:03] an early bird, but yeah. [06:05] >> I became an early bird about 18 months [06:07] ago. I was predictably not that early. I [06:10] could work late into the evening. And [06:11] then about 18 months or so ago, I just [06:13] my body just said, "No, that's it. [06:15] you're gonna flip to the other side of [06:16] the day and now I'm up at five mostly [06:19] every morning. [06:19] >> Yeah, I think that I think the exact [06:21] opposite happened with me. I've always [06:23] been an early bird. And then about a [06:25] year ago, probably six months ago, it's [06:27] been like, [06:28] >> okay, [06:28] >> I I can't wake up at 4 in the morning [06:30] like I used to. [06:31] >> Okay. I think the trick is just stay in [06:33] bed all day and work on the laptop. [06:35] That's the uh that's the way. [06:36] >> I I like where your head's at. I really [06:41] >> That's pretty. [06:44] Well, there there's Mark. Mark Ben Kane [06:46] joining us once more from the other side [06:47] of the pond right on the west coast of [06:49] the US. And last, but by no means n [06:52] least is an MALT. How you doing, An? [06:55] >> I'm doing good. Thank you. I'm glad the [06:57] slippery slope outside is rained off now [07:00] and y [07:01] >> I can finally go for a walk again. [07:03] >> You are just like us. Yeah, I I actually [07:06] fell the other day. I I got that was [07:08] carrying a car battery [07:10] >> and I as I fell my legs went out from [07:12] under me and I threw it up and I watched [07:15] it in the air and I was thinking where [07:17] this lands is really going to change my [07:19] life potentially. Luckily it landed on [07:21] my chest [07:23] but I was thinking if that is anyway uh [07:26] so slippery slopes and all that. [07:28] >> So no broken nose on today's show. [07:30] >> No broken tray. I was carrying on a [07:32] tray. The whole thing went up. The tray [07:34] landed on me. Then the battery landed on [07:35] the tray. smashed the trait to bits and [07:38] then luckily I'm here to tell the t. It [07:40] was a good story. [07:41] >> Okay. [07:41] >> Yeah. Yeah. It was I was totally just a [07:43] bit winded, but it was one of those [07:44] moments where you know like like when [07:45] you step out into the road and the car [07:47] honks and you think that could have gone [07:49] a different way, couldn't it? My life [07:51] could have been very different. So [07:52] anyway, there we go. Um [07:54] >> so an joining, have you been on this [07:57] particular show before? I know that [07:59] you've been on the podcast with me [08:00] before. [08:00] >> I don't think so. [08:02] >> I don't think so. First time actually. [08:04] So, I sent her I sent her the link. [08:07] >> You are very good. You are a very good [08:09] person. Um, let's hope that this is the [08:11] first time of many. Um, we're going to [08:14] lean into a subject today quite a bit [08:16] actually that Anne's really into. And [08:17] I'll start the bio and you'll get an [08:19] impression of that. So, an is an [08:21] accessibility strategist who knows that [08:23] while empathy matters, nothing motivates [08:25] a business owner like realizing they're [08:28] quietly losing serious revenue and backs [08:31] by real world data and proven research. [08:33] She mentors software companies, [08:34] agencies, and e-commerce teams to build [08:37] for everyone. She is a loud advocate for [08:40] the WordPress block editor because it [08:42] actually works if you take the time to [08:43] learn it properly. Whether she's on [08:45] stage or mentoring a development team, [08:47] her focus is the same. Turning technical [08:50] requirements into measurable business [08:51] growth because accessibility is simply [08:54] smart business. So there you go. Thank [08:57] you. Thank you. Thank you. [08:59] >> So there's our panel today. Um, the way [09:01] that this show works is we love it if [09:04] you sort of put in comments. You know, [09:05] not all of them will I manage to get [09:07] onto the screen because I'm trying to [09:09] juggle a few things, but I'll try to [09:10] keep up with what you write and if I do [09:12] and something is relevant to what we're [09:13] talking about, I'll pop it on the [09:14] screen. So, I would encourage you to [09:16] write as many comments as you possibly [09:18] can. Uh, so let's have a look. Here, a [09:20] coma for you. Did you fix the settings [09:21] on your DSLR, Nathan? I have no idea. [09:24] So, last week the the camera just kept [09:26] switching off. Uh, all I have to do is [09:28] lean over and press a button like that. [09:30] But if it switch if it goes black, [09:33] >> that's what's going on. So, apologies, [09:35] panel, if that happens, we just have to [09:37] cope. [09:38] >> Um, what does this one say? He's back. [09:40] It's um, does the power grid even work [09:43] at 5:00 a.m.? Yes, just [09:46] >> uh, the kettle certainly does. [09:49] It's the only way to get going. [09:51] Patricia's here. Hello, Patricia. She [09:53] says, Patricia. [09:56] >> Oh, no. again. Oh, no. Again. [09:59] >> Wait, no, he's got his name right in it. [10:01] Look, it says Gerard. [10:02] >> Oh. Oh, great. Okay, great. That's Thank [10:04] you, Gerard. [10:07] >> I have no words. Uh, it's Gener. [10:12] He says, "Hi, here. I have I know you [10:14] I've got a total mental block with your [10:16] name, Gerard. I have no idea why, but [10:18] I'm extremely pleased that you [10:19] >> You need You need to learn to say that [10:21] in Dutch, though. [10:23] >> Go on. [10:26] That that was a word which I don't think [10:28] I'll ever get. Say it again. [10:33] >> Yeah. Well, there is a child in the way [10:35] we speak Dutch in the south of the [10:37] country below river. It's nest hard on [10:39] your throat. You can say [10:42] >> okay. Because we don't have that sort of [10:44] whatever that sound was at the beginning [10:46] where [10:47] >> that's only when you have a cold. [10:49] >> Oh. Oh, [10:51] >> that is definitely not an American [10:53] English sound that we make in all. [10:55] >> That's right. We don't have that sound. [10:57] Uh, and then James Laauo is joining us [10:58] and saying, "Good morning. Thank you [11:00] very much." Um, Taco, very kindly. Glad [11:02] you're okay, but a bit sad that you're [11:04] not sharing video footage of your [11:05] battery adventure. [11:06] >> Yeah. Did you get that on Ring? Ah, no [11:08] Ring camera. No Ring camera footage or [11:10] anything of that. No. And Elliot, last [11:13] comment for now. Elliot's joining us. [11:15] He's just down the road from me. Hello, [11:16] Elliot. Nice to have you. So, like I [11:18] said, please drop your comments in as we [11:20] get going. We're WordPressy, so the idea [11:23] is to do as much possible about [11:24] WordPress, but we we go off pieced a [11:26] little bit as well. So, here we go. [11:28] We're going to go off piece a bit now. [11:30] Bit of self-promotional stuff. We [11:32] produce two episodes a week basically on [11:34] this podcast. If you want to be kept [11:35] updated via email, just put your email [11:38] address into there or go to your podcast [11:40] player of choice, search for WP Builds, [11:42] and click follow or whatever it might [11:44] be. That's probably the best way to do [11:46] that. The latest episode of the podcast [11:48] was with I I called him Sir Dave Foy [11:52] because I hold him in such high regard. [11:54] Uh Dave Foy has he's done like loads of [11:57] courses about Elementor and bricks and [11:58] things like that. He's releasing a lot [12:00] of new materials, but he's got this [12:01] whole different way of doing it now. [12:03] He's going to be doing live cohort [12:05] learning. So he's instead of doing this [12:06] like Leviathan course, um he's going to [12:09] be doing it per week and then getting [12:11] taking feedback from his from his [12:13] customers each week and then doing the [12:15] next week on a rolling schedule so he [12:17] keeps up to date with them. Anyway, [12:18] that's what that podcast episode there [12:20] is all about is him trying to figure [12:23] that out and um anyway there there is [12:26] the episode that was number 4 I think [12:29] 51. So we're fast approaching. By the [12:32] end of this year, I'll be on 500 of that [12:34] uh particular podcast. Speaking of [12:36] which, I'm going to blow my own trumpet [12:39] again. Um, this week I'm releasing the [12:42] 200th episode of the WP Talon podcast. [12:46] >> I know it's got two zeros. I feel like I [12:48] should have a cake or something. But [12:51] >> I feel like we should have sound effects [12:52] where like all of a sudden like insert a [12:54] pause here. [12:55] >> That's right. No, I'm not doing [12:56] anything. I'm just releasing it as [12:58] exactly the same as all the others. I [13:00] don't even mention it. I recorded my [13:02] intro earlier today and then I got to [13:04] the end of it and thought I didn't [13:05] mention that it was the second 100 one, [13:07] but anyway, whatever. Um, so anyway, [13:10] there we go. That's the WP Builds [13:11] promotional stuff, right? Each week the [13:15] guests get to drop in a few links if [13:17] they so choose and uh they get featured [13:19] toward the beginning of the show. That [13:20] was Michelle's idea. Thank you for that. [13:22] And um today uh An Mika has dropped in [13:25] this one. It's called well it's from the [13:27] SEM Rush or SEMrush website. is called [13:29] why accessibility matters more than ever [13:32] for SEO purposes. I had a read through [13:34] but I I wondered if um an if you wanted [13:36] to take the helm on this and tell us why [13:38] you included it. [13:39] >> Yeah, the reason why I included it is [13:41] because for years um especially for [13:45] those who started with accessibility [13:47] even earlier than I did, our biggest [13:50] frustration has always been, "Yeah, but [13:53] where are the numbers? Give us the [13:56] numbers. Give us the data." And I'm [13:58] like, "Yeah, sure. Throw your common [14:00] sense out of the window and just wait [14:02] for people to send you the data." Right? [14:05] So, um, and then I was, um, always [14:09] talking about and many of my colleagues [14:11] as well about SEO is incredibly, [14:14] uh, highly connected to accessibility. [14:18] And, um, something people tend to forget [14:20] is that the main customer for Google is [14:23] not the advertisers, it's the users. [14:27] Right. So they will prioritize that and [14:31] so they did this research with real [14:34] numbers. If you go to this article, it [14:36] will be in the show notes I think. [14:38] >> Yeah, it will. [14:38] >> Um you can also link to the full [14:40] research page u where they have [14:42] everything and it just shows that [14:46] traffic increases when your compliance [14:49] increases. And I I'm really actually bit [14:52] sad that they use the word compliance, [14:54] you know, because I'm really like go [14:57] away with your compliance. It should be [14:59] part of your website or app hygiene. [15:03] It's website hygiene. And the thing is, [15:07] if you look at it being compliant, [15:10] you'll never win because if your [15:12] competitor is looking to be more [15:15] accessible than you are, they are miles [15:17] ahead of you. And then this research [15:20] showed that 27% of more keywords ranked [15:24] with accessibility improvements. And [15:26] this is also important. This is why I [15:28] love this article because it is about [15:30] progress over perfection. People are [15:33] like, "Oh, how am I going to start?" And [15:35] then they don't start. They get totally [15:36] get paralyzed with where to start. And [15:38] if they would just start with getting [15:40] heading order, okay, and getting color [15:43] contrast done better and all of that. [15:46] Well, you know, I'm gonna how do you say [15:48] that? I'm going to segue too much. So, [15:50] forget about Yes, that is the one. [15:53] >> And then one of the most important [15:55] things here when it when you look at SEO [15:58] is the incredible boost in authority [16:02] score for compliant sites. [16:06] It's just it's just crazy. [16:08] I'll read from the the top of the [16:10] article actually because it kind of [16:11] gives it so you know they tried to [16:13] establish the credentials of the people [16:14] doing it which are pretty formidable [16:16] actually. So collaboration with [16:18] accessibility checker.org built [16:21] rush uh 10 and this is analysis of [16:23] 10,000 websites and they were trying to [16:25] figure out and like you said they use [16:27] the word compliance where their [16:28] accessibility compliance impacts online [16:31] discoverability. In other words, if you [16:33] you put the effort in on the [16:34] accessibility side do you get more [16:36] visitors? That's kind of the bottom [16:37] line. And the study revealed that the [16:39] major I'm just reading this by the way, [16:41] you know, off the site. The study [16:42] revealed that the majority of websites [16:44] still fail to meet accessibility [16:46] standards. Yet across the fuller sample, [16:49] higher accessibility scores correlated [16:51] with stronger search outcomes, including [16:55] increases in organic traffic, broader [16:58] keyword visibility, and stronger [17:00] authority scores. Now, I'm no SEO [17:03] expert. That is all a bit of a mystery [17:05] to me. But I I'm I'm not entirely [17:09] surprised that this is true, that this [17:11] has been written down, but I am I am [17:12] glad that somebody wrote it down in [17:14] black and white so that you can kind of [17:15] point to this forever more and say, [17:17] "Okay, you now have yet another reason [17:20] >> exactly to do this work." And and I'm [17:22] I'm going to take this one a notch [17:24] further [17:25] >> um because I'm sure that soon the next [17:28] articles will come out because LLMs [17:32] >> y [17:33] >> are not Google and they look at your [17:35] website differently and I like once a [17:38] week I'm doing this deep search. It's [17:41] becoming a bit of a costly hobby these [17:43] days. Like are there new new uh studies [17:47] out there why accessibility also [17:50] influences how an LLM picks up on you? [17:53] Because if you think structured data is [17:56] everything, well, bye-bye. [18:00] >> Um, okay. So, the the the the URL for [18:03] this will be in the show notes. So if [18:05] you do subscribe like I said earlier or [18:06] what have you or you visit the website [18:08] tomorrow episode whatever this is um [18:11] then go and check it out you it'll be [18:13] under the community section by [18:15] accessibility matters more than ever for [18:17] SEO performance will be the link that [18:19] you're looking for. Uh Michelle um or [18:22] Mark anything to add to that or shall we [18:24] move on? [18:26] >> Um [18:26] >> I I don't think I could improve upon [18:28] what Anamica says. [18:29] >> Yeah. Yeah. And and I know we're going [18:33] to be talking more about accessibility. [18:34] >> We are there's a few more accessibility [18:36] pieces. And it was pure coincidence that [18:38] and and was on today. But uh yeah, [18:40] there's more data at the bottom which I [18:42] didn't highlight, but you can see that [18:43] there's a whole lot more if you're [18:44] looking at the video for this. You can [18:45] see there's all sorts of other stuff. Um [18:48] you can explore the the survey properly, [18:50] but this is just a heads up that that [18:51] exists. So thank you for bringing that [18:53] to our attention. That's a good one. Um [18:56] so this next one also in the realm of [18:58] accessibility. This is um uh on the [19:01] accessible web design um is what it's [19:04] called, but it's Joe Doulson.com. Joe [19:06] Doulson is a a friend of the podcast. In [19:08] fact, I'll just get this one out the way [19:10] quickly whilst we're here. It's sort of [19:12] another self-promotional bit, I'm [19:13] afraid, but it sort of matches very care [19:16] very closely. I did an episode of um [19:19] with Joe Doulson with our accessibility [19:20] show. We're on number nine now. and he [19:23] picked out this um this website which [19:25] had been sort of like pushed in socials [19:27] by automatic and various other um [19:31] various other things and uh Joe was just [19:34] sort of saying okay it this this was [19:35] supposed to be and I use air quotes it [19:38] was an example of the best in WordPress [19:40] and Joe was just sort of picking it [19:42] apart from an accessibility point of [19:44] view and whilst he liked the website he [19:46] said you know there was definitely a lot [19:47] of work to be done so if you enjoy that [19:49] kind of content uh and you enjoy looking [19:51] an expert figure out where accessibility [19:53] problems are and what to do about them. [19:56] Go and have a look at that. It's about [19:57] 40 minutes long. Right. [19:58] >> I just I just realized I should have [20:01] given you another link as well. [20:03] >> Ah, another time. That's a there's a [20:05] good reason to drag you back onto the [20:07] show on another page. [20:09] >> So, the reason I've put this one in uh [20:12] on Joe's website, it's called judging [20:14] severity and accessibility issues. is [20:16] because [20:18] this is so obvious but actually I never [20:21] thought about it this way which is [20:23] ridiculous. Joe makes the point that [20:25] when you're so let's say you've [20:26] inherited a website or something like [20:28] that and you're trying to make a [20:29] judgment about what do we tackle first [20:33] his point is well duh tackle the stuff [20:36] which gives the biggest impact to the [20:38] end user to the people using the [20:41] website. Don't go for the stuff which is [20:43] necessarily easiest for you to fix, [20:46] which you know, I guess if you're a [20:48] developer, that kind of makes common [20:49] sense. You can go to your boss and say, [20:50] "Look, here's all the things I ticked [20:52] off." But his point is, and there's [20:54] three points, um, look at the content. [20:57] If there's critical content that the [20:59] users need to be able to see or gain [21:02] access to, do that first. Uh, yeah, [21:06] okay, that makes complete sense. Then [21:08] his second metric is how frequently does [21:12] this thing occur. In other words, I [21:13] don't know if there's a if there's a [21:15] very important button to download the [21:17] PDF or whatever it may be and that's on [21:19] every page but the button is not [21:21] accessible, we'll do that because that's [21:23] a frequently occurring thing on the [21:25] website. And then um his last one is um [21:29] it's just a challenge really about how [21:31] easy it is to overcome. So that's the [21:33] one that I imagine most developers [21:34] tackle first. You know, how easy is it [21:36] for me to fix? I'll do that first [21:38] because that's a nice easy one. Uh his [21:40] is yeah it how easy is it for the user [21:43] to get around and make a sort of [21:44] priority list of those kind of things. [21:46] >> So anyway, great wisdom from Joe and [21:50] kind of nice to be confronted by [21:51] something that [21:53] >> is now really obvious to me but until I [21:56] read it uh wasn't all that obvious. So [21:59] again Mark and Michelle if anybody's got [22:01] anything they want to contribute please [22:03] feel free. [22:05] Um, I I I just might share an experience [22:08] I had with Joe once. He sat down with me [22:10] on a definitely this was I I have to say [22:14] this was not MainWP. This was a [22:16] different product that I sat down with [22:18] him on. This was like five or six years [22:20] ago anyway. and uh he went through uh [22:25] what I was showing him and and oh my [22:29] goodness, I had five pages of notes by [22:31] the time I was done sitting and it was [22:34] awesome of him to take the time [22:36] >> to just do that with me. Um I am not an [22:40] accessibility expert uh like other [22:43] people on this show are, but I've [22:45] learned so much over the last few years [22:47] and Joe's been a big part of that. So, [22:49] just kind of wanted to shout out to Joe [22:50] that you know. [22:52] >> Yeah. There's something I'd like to know [22:54] from you about that though, Mark. How [22:56] Okay. Do you remember how you felt [22:59] that first in these first moments when [23:01] you got this list? What what happened [23:04] >> in your um [23:09] in my head? I I will say that I was not [23:12] shocked. [23:13] Um it was a little bit uh embarrassing [23:18] I'd say. But the worst experience I had [23:21] actually was about 10 years ago when I [23:23] was uh sitting down with someone. We [23:25] actually had a word camp that I had [23:27] organized and this this woman, she was [23:30] blind. She was one of the presenters. [23:32] She was blind and she sat down with our [23:35] software to show me the struggles she [23:37] had to go with. And that was my first [23:39] exposure to like the true [23:42] uh not just hurdles that we needed to to [23:47] overcome, but the things that I had [23:48] never thought of because I'm not blind [23:50] and I I was not putting myself in their [23:53] shoes and and uh so that kind of opened [23:56] the door for me to become a little bit [23:57] more empathetic uh towards it. When Joe [24:00] sat down with me, I already knew that he [24:02] was going to tear it apart because I [24:04] already I've known Joe for a long time [24:06] and and and [24:08] have a ton of respect for him. So, uh it [24:11] was uh one of those I shook my head a [24:15] little bit, but none of it was I I [24:17] wasn't surprised. I I don't know how to [24:19] I'm trying to think on my head. I may be [24:21] embarrassed a little probably. I'm [24:23] always I'm always asking because some [24:25] people are like it's like someone stole [24:29] the air from their lungs, you know, or [24:31] they they're like or I'm never going to [24:33] fix that. [24:34] >> Yeah, that was the experience I had that [24:36] first time when when the this this woman [24:39] was not just visually impaired, she was [24:42] completely blind and [24:44] >> Yeah. [24:45] >> and um an amazing person and she was so [24:49] patient with me. I I mean if I were her, [24:52] I would have like smacked me upside the [24:54] head five different ladies, but she was [24:57] so patient and so kind and so [24:59] understanding and and my whole thought [25:03] the whole time is like we are not [25:04] servicing these people the way that we [25:06] should be. [25:07] >> Well, one of the things that that should [25:10] also be part of your hygiene, [25:14] you know, when you are building a [25:16] product is the actual user testing. [25:20] Every time I see that this process has [25:23] been skipped and and just disregarded, [25:28] you know, in the end it's going to cost [25:30] you so much. And I'm not talking only [25:33] about people who have um who are who are [25:38] blind or visually impaired. A group that [25:42] everybody seems to forget is the one [25:44] that I am uh part of is people with [25:48] cognitive issues like ADHD, [25:52] >> autism. I have a combination of that. [25:55] >> Sometimes I land on websites and I'm [25:58] just like, [26:00] >> yeah, [26:02] >> as a fellow ADHDer, I I totally relate [26:06] to that. And um I going further I [26:09] everyone here I think knows who Jen [26:11] Harris is. [26:12] >> Yeah. [26:12] >> And I did I did an interview with her a [26:15] few months ago for MainWP which is up on [26:18] YouTube. My little bit of self-promotion [26:19] there. [26:20] >> I'm going to go and watch that. [26:21] >> And she opened my eyes, pardon the pun, [26:25] in so many ways because what she what [26:28] she did so well at explaining and I [26:30] could I you need to watch it because I [26:32] can't explain it the way she did. Um [26:35] what she did very well was explain how [26:38] accessibility [26:40] isn't just for people with um [26:43] disabilities or anything. It actually [26:45] affects everybody. An example she gave [26:47] is like what if you're on a train and [26:49] you're and and it's you know vibrating [26:51] and you're trying to read something and [26:53] and things like that. And so and and and [26:56] what it helped helped me to understand [26:58] is that we are losing a lot of business [27:01] as developers and and uh product uh [27:06] producers just because we're not taking [27:09] into consideration that that everybody [27:12] needs accessibility whether they realize [27:14] it or not. and she was she was very good [27:17] at like explaining that to like a third [27:21] grader who didn't really grasp you know [27:24] any of these things until it was brought [27:25] to my attention. So um [27:27] >> yeah it was it was really really [27:30] >> you know there there are a lot of [27:31] politically very incorrect uh examples [27:34] that I always use when I do live talks [27:37] on stage where I'm not getting filmed. [27:41] Well, I'll I'll I'll give you uh two of [27:45] the um not so uh politically incorrect [27:49] ones. Um one of them is a massive [27:52] hangover. [27:54] >> Oh, [27:55] >> going online shopping with a massive [27:57] hangover because you forgot to go to the [27:59] supermarket. [28:01] >> And another one that people always [28:04] forget is hay fever. [28:08] >> Okay. Suddenly your eyes Yeah. Yeah. you [28:10] you get fuzzy, you get dizzy, you you [28:13] have trouble seeing and your patience is [28:16] a lot less than um [28:20] than normally people get [28:22] >> and I actually know about I think it's [28:24] Japanese island. I still have some draft [28:27] article about that lying around where [28:29] due to some genetic issue. Um the [28:34] largest portion of the um population [28:37] there has a fever. [28:40] >> Yeah. [28:41] >> Entire island. [28:42] >> Okay. A whole island full of [28:44] >> aver specific island. I don't know which [28:46] one it was. I will publish that article [28:49] at some point. I just have to hit [28:50] publish. [28:51] >> Yeah. That's kind of curious. [28:52] >> I want to sell tissues on that island. [28:54] >> That's a great [28:56] Great business to be in. Yeah. Yeah. Um, [28:59] so, so Joe's piece here, judging [29:01] severity and accessibility issues. It's [29:03] really short. It'll take you five [29:04] minutes to read, but it's a really, it [29:06] kind of, it was such an obvious thing, [29:09] but such an a thing that I hadn't really [29:11] thought about. The long and the short of [29:12] it is basically tackle the things which [29:14] help the most people first. Don't do it [29:16] from your point of view first. The thing [29:18] I would add about accessibility also is [29:20] that it is much easier to build an [29:23] accessible site than to retrofit an [29:25] accessible site. [29:26] >> So don't build a site thinking I'll add [29:28] that later [29:30] >> because you won't like yourself later. [29:32] You'll you'll be like yesterday Michelle [29:34] was horrible because today Michelle has [29:36] to retrofit something. So build build [29:39] accessibly. Obviously we inherit sites [29:42] that we have to do that. There's always [29:43] going to be that. But don't plan [29:45] accessibility as the second set of [29:48] things you're going to do where step two [29:50] build with accessibility in mind. [29:52] >> Nice. So that is our second piece in [29:55] terms of accessibility. And I think [29:57] there is another one coming in a little [29:59] while. So we'll come to that in a [30:01] moment. There's a uh a tool a WordPress [30:03] plug-in which we'll mention as well. But [30:05] for now we're going to segue to this [30:07] piece which came directly from Mark. [30:10] Mark I don't know if because you dropped [30:11] it in. Do you want to take the the helm [30:13] on this one? [30:14] >> Well, this was a this was an article uh [30:16] actually Dennis shared it with us over [30:18] the weekend uh that Katie Keith wrote [30:21] and uh it it's Katie being Katie, which [30:26] is you know what I like about Katie in [30:29] general is that she is very data driven. [30:32] So yeah, [30:33] >> she she will start out with a you know a [30:36] kind of a she'll posit something and [30:38] then she'll get the data to back it up [30:40] or or to to get details. And um the the [30:46] uh [30:49] she starts out with at barn 2, our new [30:50] plug-in sales were down 17.8% in 2025. [30:54] And the general idea is that plug-in [30:56] sales are down uh were down in 2025. [31:01] Uh and um so then she followed up with a [31:05] survey to say to to kind of find out how [31:08] that broke down um and how the plug-in [31:13] role relates to sales performance [31:16] covers kind of like the new versus uh [31:18] versus uh returning customers or [31:21] renewals. And it seemed like renewals [31:23] stayed pretty solid, but the the new [31:25] customers uh are are the area that kind [31:29] of dropped. And I find that um not [31:33] surprising. It kind of goes to this [31:35] whole idea that fewer and fewer new [31:37] people are coming into WordPress and and [31:39] it might feed into that. [31:41] >> Uh but I also feel like uh you know the [31:45] niches have more people in the in the [31:46] playing field as well. So it's probably [31:49] distributed a little bit more. uh among [31:52] that. Um so this goes into the thing [31:55] that I found really interesting which [31:58] was uh about replaceability and what she [32:02] found is that the plugins that [32:07] cons continue to to have solid sales [32:10] were the ones that people might consider [32:12] to be irreplaceable. [32:14] >> Yeah. Um, [32:15] >> and and of course that, you know, [32:18] everybody wants their plugin to be [32:19] irreplaceable and there's different [32:21] things that can go into what what makes [32:24] it irreplaceable. Um, I think I have a [32:29] whole bunch of thoughts on that in I'm [32:30] still thinking about this this question. [32:33] Uh, as a marketer, you think about that [32:35] constantly. Um, what can we do to make [32:38] our plug-in more irreplaceable? I think [32:40] to start with, you make a plugin that [32:42] just works. And I'm not talking about a [32:44] plugin that works. I'm talking about one [32:45] that just works, right? So you click a [32:47] button and click a button and it just [32:49] works. [32:50] >> And I think that's where you start. Um, [32:53] and then there's different ways that you [32:54] can make it irreplaceable. If you run a [32:56] SAS model, it's it's a little bit easier [32:58] maybe to make it irreplaceable because [33:00] you're kind of controlling the data and [33:02] the and the platform and and all of [33:04] that. Um, but it also I I also feel like [33:09] the more uh robust a plugin is um the [33:13] more irreplaceable it can become because [33:16] of the fact that it might [33:18] uh take a little bit more effort to [33:20] switch from one to another. So that kind [33:23] of can make it irreplaceable as well. [33:26] >> So there's a whole bunch that goes into [33:27] it. It's a really interesting article. I [33:29] I won't you know I I I won't go into all [33:34] the details and like I said my brain is [33:35] still kind of processing this. Um [33:38] >> well what what I found kind of [33:39] interesting was you know firstly Katie [33:42] is probably the most um how to describe [33:45] it. Honest. Let's go with that. Um she's [33:48] very honest to the point where even in [33:51] failure she'll tell everybody about the [33:53] things that that have failed for her. [33:55] Whereas I think I think that's that's [33:56] not typical [33:58] >> um in almost every part of life. You [34:00] know, when you ask people how they're [34:01] doing and what have you, you know, [34:02] they'll sort of gloss over that. Katie, [34:05] not in a not in a kind of like, oh, poor [34:07] me kind of way, but in a oh, this [34:08] happened to our business, right? This [34:11] curious, wow, how did that happen? So, [34:13] she comes from the point of view that [34:14] their sales were down. And of course, I [34:17] don't think firstly that most companies [34:18] would admit that. You would never hear [34:20] that. But this article is a completely [34:22] voluntary offering of that. She's [34:24] telling us, she doesn't have to tell us, [34:26] but she tells us. And then what kicks in [34:29] for Katie isn't the normal cycle of the [34:31] skies falling in. It's okay, what the [34:32] heck can we do about that? [34:34] >> What what what are the reasons that this [34:36] might be? And so she went out onto [34:38] Twitter, did a poll, found that this [34:41] broadly speaking was the case across the [34:44] board. You know, we're not in that sort [34:45] of barnstorming area that we might have [34:47] been five years ago. And and then drew [34:50] some inferences from from some of the [34:51] questions that she asked. And this whole [34:53] thing about um irreplaceability [34:57] seemed to be a central pillar of her [34:58] argument. You know, if you've got a [35:00] plug-in which literally can't be swapped [35:02] out for somebody else's, then you're on [35:05] to solid ground. That that seems to be [35:07] something which either flatlined or or [35:09] improved sales. You know, the numbers [35:11] went up. Um uh so that whole replace [35:15] thing was important. And then the other [35:17] thing which I thought was important [35:19] which came out was this the third [35:20] question was um companies that partnered [35:24] up with other people and and obviously [35:26] you know there's a wide gamut of what [35:28] that could mean but organic search [35:30] didn't seem to help. Premium products in [35:34] a marketplace like WordPress.org didn't [35:36] seem to help. there didn't seem to be a [35:38] correlation in her data between making a [35:40] free version and success in 2025 or [35:43] organic search, you know, SEO [35:44] optimization and success. The real [35:47] success seems to have come out with with [35:49] partnering with people. So, like-minded [35:51] companies, you know, MainWP exemplify [35:53] this. They're really good at partnering [35:55] with other likeminded but not [35:58] overlapping businesses. Wi-I which by [36:00] the way plug number two anybody who [36:02] wants to uh is interested in partnering [36:05] with MainWP please contact me I'm open [36:08] and all ears [36:09] >> well yeah no but that's that's precisely [36:12] I I remember I did a podcast episode [36:14] with the um with the the analytics guys [36:16] the independent analytics it just felt [36:18] like a perfect overlap and I you've now [36:21] ended up partnering with them which is [36:22] absolutely perfect but that's that seems [36:25] to be a real a real successful way [36:27] partnering with other people I don't [36:28] know if that means like partnering with [36:30] you know like this kind of thing this [36:32] sort of show whether you partner with [36:33] media organizations or stuff like that [36:35] don't know if that's rolled into it but [36:37] it certainly seems to have um yeah and [36:39] you can see in this graph the growth is [36:41] the pink area and you can see really [36:42] it's the the one that sort of dominates [36:44] there was no decline in sales if you [36:47] were to be partnering with people. So [36:48] that's kind of the the long and the [36:50] short. So, if you're looking at your [36:51] numbers this year, um, or rather from [36:54] last year 2025, and you think, gosh, [36:56] it's flatlined or it's gone down, [36:58] definitely have a look at this because [36:59] Katie's got some, uh, some wisdom for [37:01] you. So, I will link to that in the show [37:03] notes. And Michelle, anything to add to [37:05] that before we wrap on. [37:07] >> I I talked to a lot of people and I'm [37:09] not going to name names, of course, but [37:11] there all the plug-in owners I have been [37:13] speaking to lately are asking me, am is [37:15] it just me or are sales down everywhere? [37:17] >> Yeah, it's everywhere. And so it really [37:19] is everywhere. And so if you are [37:21] experiencing that sales are down, don't [37:23] lose heart. It's not you, it's the [37:25] market right now. [37:25] >> Yep. Yep. Yep. But it would appear that [37:28] there are clever things that you can do [37:30] >> that Katie is now obviously beginning to [37:32] do or has already done that might [37:34] mitigate that problem a little bit for [37:35] you. Yeah. Sorry, an [37:37] >> Yeah, I Yeah. Okay. [37:39] >> No, no, I was saying that I think I [37:40] interrupted you, so I was Yeah. [37:44] So yeah, um I um it just reminds me I [37:48] think I shared the link with you in [37:50] hindsight. There is this great interview [37:53] um on Open Channels FM [37:58] um where they did a talk with uh Tim [38:01] Moner and Sandra Kersonen, Sandra Kurt [38:04] from Grade and actually Grade is doing [38:07] the opposite. So they are showing growth [38:10] and growth but they're different. [38:12] They're different from anyone. And I [38:13] think they're also interesting to follow [38:15] for anyone because they do talk about [38:18] how they do that, where they go there. [38:21] People I remember people laughing at [38:23] them three years or four years ago when [38:26] they saw great pricing because they're [38:28] not the typical WordPress pricing and [38:30] people were crying murder and saying, [38:32] "Oh, they're way too expensive. They're [38:35] going to die. They'll be off the grid [38:37] within a year." They're not. But they're [38:40] also very good at making these [38:43] partnerships and um listening to Sandra [38:46] Kurtza is really interesting. I can [38:49] really recommend you do this. I learn [38:50] from her all the time. I I am advising [38:54] them on accessibility and stuff. Um but [38:57] there is this is a great podcast that [38:59] they did. Oh, you've got it on screen. [39:02] >> Yeah, I got it on the screen. So, it's [39:03] um it's on Open Channels FM. [39:06] >> The episode that you're after 18th of [39:08] December 25 if that helps. So, you can [39:10] probably just Google open web [39:12] conversations. Sorry, not Google in your [39:14] podcast player of choice. You could [39:15] probably just type that in open web [39:17] conversations and it was [39:18] >> yeah, [39:18] >> episode 708. Um, [39:20] >> it's um it's a brilliant episode and [39:23] it's probably also confronting for some [39:25] people, but you can learn so much from [39:27] it. I mean, even I learned from it. I [39:29] mean, [39:29] >> yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, okay. So, [39:31] >> I'm not into that. [39:32] >> Yeah, we will um we will I'll add that [39:34] into the show notes as well. delivering [39:36] customer value through collaborative [39:38] ecosystem partnerships and interestingly [39:41] Jonathan Wald is on the um he's doing [39:43] the interviewing and I know that's one [39:44] of his [39:45] >> uh big things as well. He loves [39:47] partnerships and all of that kind of [39:49] stuff. So that's perfect. Right. So [39:51] there we go. That was Katy Keith's [39:53] article which ultimately led to this [39:54] secondary piece. Let's move it on [39:56] slightly. Going to social network. I'm [39:59] not logged in so it looks a bit empty. [40:00] There are lots of comments on this but [40:02] you can't see them because I'm not [40:03] logged in. But um this is Steve Burge. [40:07] This is there isn't a story here. [40:09] There's probably not much for us to [40:10] discuss. But Steve Burge who is the I [40:13] don't know if he's the founder. He's [40:14] certainly the owner. I think he's the [40:15] founder of Publish Press and a variety [40:17] of other WordPress plugins. He being [40:20] with Publish Press, which enables you to [40:22] do all sorts of things around hitting [40:23] the publish button in the WordPress [40:25] editor. he's been very keen to to keep [40:28] track of the collaborative editing, this [40:30] sort of Google Docs style thing that we [40:32] may may or may not yet get at some [40:35] point. Um, we've had various [40:37] conversations about it and honestly the [40:39] whole enterprise felt like it was miles [40:41] away until fairly recently and I just [40:44] caught sight of this just the other day [40:45] and I haven't got any I haven't tested [40:47] it or anything but he's he's not a man [40:50] to sort of throw incendurary stuff out [40:52] there. So this is very positive. He [40:54] says, "I've been testing collaborative [40:56] editing experiments in WordPress for [40:58] years. Those early versions never work [41:00] smoothly. Now, and this was written, oh, [41:03] I don't know, four or five days ago. [41:05] Now, with the Gutenberg plug-in for the [41:07] first time, it works great right out of [41:09] the box. Google Docs style editing in [41:11] WordPress is here. Give it a try." So, [41:14] honestly, there's there's there's just [41:16] news there. If you want to go and check [41:17] it out, go and get the Gutenberg plugin [41:20] um which adds [41:22] like a beta version or a beta version if [41:25] you like of features on top of your [41:26] normal block editor and uh and it's in [41:29] there and there's an image that's [41:30] attached to it which I apparently can't [41:32] zoom. There we go. Uh where you check a [41:34] box collaboration add real time editing. [41:37] You just tick that box and yeah, there [41:39] you go. So, I don't know if anybody [41:41] wants to add anything to that, but I [41:43] just trust that Steve wouldn't have said [41:44] that unless there was something worth [41:45] looking at. So, go and check that out. [41:47] >> No, I think it's it's really cool [41:49] because if if agencies and anyone [41:52] building websites would calculate [41:54] through how much time they lose [41:56] >> Yep. [41:56] >> on um inefficient or efficient way of [41:59] working. I mean um 12 times 5 minutes is [42:03] an hour. People tend to forget that. [42:05] >> Yeah. I had to just do the maths then [42:07] and I was I was thinking is that right? [42:09] That doesn't seem right. It's right. Uh, [42:11] okay. So, there's Steve. Right. Let's [42:13] move on then. Um, this is a sort of [42:16] community-based piece if you like. Uh, [42:18] Big Bite. It's an an agency, an [42:21] enterprise agency. I I confess I don't [42:23] know a lot about them, but I've heard [42:24] the name banded about around lots and [42:26] lots of times. I think they had, you [42:28] know, like really large clients and [42:30] things like that. They uh they began 15 [42:31] years ago in uh Teside, which is not [42:34] that far from me, a little bit north [42:36] where I live. um they have now uh joined [42:39] forces with WP Engine. They've been [42:42] consumed by WP Engine and and I'll just [42:46] read out the the important bit. You [42:47] know, this is a marketing piece just [42:49] explaining what's going on and what have [42:51] you. So, it says as we transition into [42:53] WP Engine, we'll gradually shift from [42:54] client services to product development. [42:57] We won't be taking on new projects. will [42:59] be putting our experience to work on [43:01] tools and solutions that can benefit [43:03] teams and organizations on a much larger [43:06] scale. So, it's an interesting it's an [43:09] interesting one from the WP Engine side [43:11] of things taking on uh the the the stuff [43:15] I guess from a great big enterprise [43:17] level agency. I guess we'll wait and see [43:19] where where that goes. There's there's a [43:22] lot more but that was the most important [43:23] paragraph I thought. Again, I don't know [43:25] if anybody wants to comment on that, but [43:29] no. Okay. [43:30] >> No, I've tried I've tried to quickly [43:33] find out who they are, but I got this. [43:36] >> Yeah. Very very very credible agency. Um [43:39] I've heard about them lots and lots of [43:40] times, but they they they weren't one of [43:42] those agencies, I don't think, which did [43:44] a [43:45] saw the importance in tons of marketing [43:47] and things like that, you know, [43:48] promoting themselves in the in the [43:50] WordPress space, but I definitely heard [43:52] of them lots and lots of times. So [43:54] anyway, there we go. They're moving over [43:55] with the WP Engine team. I guess [43:57] effective immediately. They won't be [43:59] taking on new clients, but they will [44:01] instead be contributing to the endeavors [44:03] at WP Engine, [44:06] right? [44:08] Okay, let's move over. So, I've put this [44:11] on here. This is actually on X. Um, but [44:15] I've had to put it on archive.ttoday [44:17] because I was having problems getting it [44:18] um getting it working. [44:21] This is um I don't know 2025 2026 it [44:25] feels like the year where maybe the AI [44:28] gremlins take a hold of your brain and [44:29] make you kind of worry that you have no [44:31] job coming. You know the year is going [44:33] to be hard. It's going to be difficult [44:35] to justify using WordPress in the next [44:37] years to come. Uh not everybody thinks [44:40] that. And Nat [44:42] help me with the surname please. An [44:45] >> uh Milletic. [44:46] >> Thank you. Milletic. Nat [44:50] Milletic. There we go. There we go. Uh, [44:52] he has listed out four reasons and the [44:55] more I read them, the more I took um, [44:57] the more I became sort of sanguin. I'm a [44:59] bit of a bit of a worrier about AI in [45:01] all honesty. And he's saying four [45:03] reasons why he thinks he's bullish about [45:05] WordPress in 2026. The first one is all [45:07] about market dominance and momentum. [45:10] There's bullet points underneath all of [45:12] these, but I'll let you read those at [45:13] your leisure. The next one is all about [45:16] the economic ecosystem. the fact that [45:18] Woo Commerce and WordPress and [45:20] WordPress.com are just these massive [45:23] entities. The fact that you can have a [45:25] load of technical flexibility, that's [45:27] his third point. You know, if you're on [45:28] something um that's not flexible, then [45:31] you're going to be, you know, you're [45:32] going to have limitations. And also, uh [45:35] developer opportunities. There's a [45:37] constant or at least there has been a [45:38] constant demand for WordPress developers [45:40] and what have you. Uh, so I I was just [45:42] pleased to see somebody um couching the [45:46] future as being bright for the WordPress [45:47] space. I know there are a few voices out [45:49] there who do exactly that, but there's [45:51] also seems to be a growing panic, if you [45:54] know what I mean. There seems to be a [45:55] lot of people getting online talking [45:56] about how AI is doing this thing in [45:59] onethird of a minute that used to take [46:01] them three days and all of that kind of [46:03] stuff. So anyway, Nat, uh, the voice of [46:06] maybe reason. So again, I'm open it up [46:08] to the floor if you've got anything you [46:09] want to say about AI and WordPress. We [46:12] got more to come about that. So [46:15] >> you know what? I'm getting a little bit [46:17] tired of all the blah blah blah around [46:20] AI and WordPress where the Doom messages [46:23] are concerned. You know, I love that Nat [46:26] is is doing this and whoever else is [46:29] doing it. Um because it's like people [46:32] are saying buy an IKEA kitchen, you [46:36] know, and put it in your professional [46:37] hotel. Yeah, that'll work. You know, [46:39] it's it's it's getting it's getting [46:42] tiring. And then another thing that I [46:44] I'd like to say about AI, what is tiring [46:47] that people are probably not even [46:49] conscious of is every time you see an [46:52] article about WordPress, [46:55] starting of it's not this, it's that. [46:59] Yeah, the weather [47:01] >> and then and then one, two, three [47:03] points. Yeah, [47:05] >> it's just I don't think I don't think [47:06] people realize that. Well, I've been [47:09] I've been listening to some interesting [47:11] commentary about um how AI might be [47:15] might it might be a difficult um a [47:17] difficult thing to AI to propel itself [47:18] in the way that it has been in the [47:20] recent past just because of uh financial [47:22] constraints in the year 2026 about how [47:25] you know there's lots of venture capital [47:26] that might need to be repaid and [47:27] obviously the environmental cost and [47:29] what have you and um and so it might be [47:31] that we we don't have this sort of like [47:33] continually it's getting better twice as [47:36] good every month that may something that [47:38] we don't experience anyway. So it it [47:40] running away from us if you like might [47:42] not be the case anyway. [47:43] >> I think if people use it to as an [47:46] assistant to create great stuff, that's [47:49] that's what it's fantastic for. [47:52] >> I was you remember a minute ago I said [47:54] I'm doing the 200th episode of the of [47:56] the Tavern podcast which is getting [47:58] released this week. I was editing it [47:59] this morning and it's with um we all [48:01] know Corey Mass. Um, and Cory, it was [48:04] Corey and it was Cory about AI and about [48:07] how basically Cory loves it and he's [48:09] using it where he can, but he's not [48:11] using it where he can't. But he, one of [48:14] the curious things that came out of what [48:15] he's doing is he he gets it to do [48:18] unexpected things like he he he said he [48:21] used to have this pack of cards. I can't [48:23] remember it was like a film director. [48:25] No, it was Brian Enino. That was it. You [48:27] know, the song, you know, the the music [48:29] producer Brian Enino. Brianino produced [48:31] this pack of cards for musicians in a [48:33] studio who were getting a bit fed up. [48:35] You know, they've been sitting there [48:36] playing the same old song and you take [48:38] this Brianino pack of cards and you'd [48:40] flick the top one over of the deck and [48:42] it would have something weird like, you [48:44] know, play the song backwards or imagine [48:47] that you're listening to this song and [48:48] you're underwater. What would that be [48:50] like? [48:50] >> And so Corey's been getting AI to do [48:54] that with his projects. He's been asking [48:56] it to deliberately do weird stuff. And I [48:59] just thought, gosh, that's so [49:01] interesting. What what an interesting [49:03] take that is because normally you think, [49:05] you know, get it to do the sensible [49:06] stuff, but no, he's mcking around with [49:08] it and getting it to do things. In other [49:09] words, he's leveraging its creativity, [49:12] which is kind of curious. Uh the webinar [49:15] in the comments, by the way, is saying [49:16] WordPress has a great future. He's not [49:18] scared of AI or they're not scared of. [49:20] >> So there we go. Um and he's got another [49:23] comment there. I can't make it come up. [49:25] I don't know why. Oh yeah, there we go. [49:27] the community is strong enough to [49:28] develop it further without AI. It will [49:30] assist us eventually but far from [49:32] replacing uh is still um he says [49:36] hallucinations are ways to frequently [49:40] still something or other and always [49:41] remember that AI is taught by us so it [49:43] still has its limitations for how long [49:45] that might be a question but you still [49:48] know your subject and use AI [49:50] efficiently. So there we go. Nice [49:53] comments from Nat. Anybody else want to [49:55] talk about N's Twitter feed or whatever [49:57] that was? [49:58] >> Well, all I can say is if you're not [50:00] following the guy, um, just do. He's [50:03] he's sharing so much positive stuff. [50:06] He's um and and another guy that he [50:09] seems I always see him in tandem with [50:12] Marco Danic. [50:14] >> Okay. [50:14] Danic, some other people will say it's [50:17] it's um they share so much information [50:19] and I think they have this um community [50:22] on Axe that has over 100,000 members, [50:25] maybe 150,000. [50:26] >> Good grief. Um the handle of Nat is Nat [50:31] Mitellich and it's Nat M I L TC with no, [50:35] you know, with no hyphens or dashes or [50:38] anything like that in between. Um, and I [50:40] will put that post into the show notes [50:42] so that you can go and check it out. Are [50:44] we staying on the AI thing? [50:46] >> No. Well, yes, we are. Actually, we are [50:48] staying on the AI thing. This is um th [50:51] this is in equal measures frustrating [50:53] and also kind of where we're at in the [50:55] year 2026. So, this was from Reddit. [50:58] Again, you can see I've put it into [50:59] archive um.ph [51:02] because for some reason the Reddit [51:03] wouldn't allow I don't know why, but I I [51:05] had to do it to get it on the screen. [51:06] Here we go. So, this is somebody saying, [51:09] "I I'm a plug-in team member. We don't [51:13] use AI." And I'll just read a variety of [51:15] the bits of it. Says, "I'm writing this [51:17] post for two reasons. Number one, to [51:19] dispel the myth that we use AI for all [51:21] plug-in reviews. I've seen a recent post [51:23] about this. Number two, I'm tired of I'm [51:27] tired of reading AI generated email [51:29] responses." Okay. They go on to say [51:32] there is an exception. There's one place [51:34] where they use AI and that's to check [51:36] with AI if you're in trademark violation [51:38] with something. So if you submit a [51:40] plugin and there's some trademark [51:42] violation, AI does that. However, the [51:45] rest of the process for submitting a [51:47] plug-in is not. But caution every other [51:51] part of our review uses a com [51:53] combination of realerson manual review [51:55] and automated tooling. So that's not AI, [51:58] that's automated tooling uh like PHPCS [52:01] and reax checks. Today whenever this [52:04] post was written, it was two days ago I [52:06] think today we had the highest number of [52:08] submissions in the history of the [52:10] plug-in directory most of those were [52:13] written by AI tools. You can see where [52:16] this is going. um when an author consist [52:19] so you imagine you submit a plugin to [52:22] the uh repo it's written by AI you [52:25] didn't do anything you just I don't know [52:27] made a prompt got it submitted to the [52:29] repository you're now using humans time [52:33] and they're checking it and then if it [52:37] gets declined there's an actual process [52:39] that you have to go to through and it [52:42] would seem that that is not being [52:44] followed up so it's an AI submission [52:46] it's reviewed Dude, it's rejected and [52:49] then it just goes black. It's like a [52:52] hole cuz you know it was an AI thing. [52:54] Oh, I can't be bothered to reply to [52:55] that. I'm just not I'll just submit [52:57] another one. So, it says when the author [52:59] consistently fails to implement our [53:01] requirements, it's been a longunning [53:02] policy since as far since before AI to [53:05] first issue a warning and then close [53:07] submissions. If your AI cannot keep up [53:09] with our requirements, your plug-in will [53:11] not be approved. Same goes for a human [53:13] developer. And for the love of the open [53:17] web is a plea at the end. And for the [53:18] love of the open web, please do please [53:21] capital letters do not reply with an AI [53:24] generated email. I personally don't even [53:27] bother to read them anymore. So what I'm [53:30] trying to encapsulate here is this is a [53:31] real human encountering what would [53:33] appear to be a lot of AI generated [53:36] stuff. And maybe in the next year or so, [53:40] this is going to become a bit of a [53:41] problem with plugins being submitted and [53:44] there's just no human way of actually [53:46] keeping on top of it. So, I don't have a [53:48] solution, but um other than to say stop [53:52] it. There you go. That's [53:57] >> I'd like to say something about that. [53:59] Yeah, [54:00] >> one of the things that worries me, it [54:02] was already worrisome with the human [54:04] developers, and I don't mean that in a [54:06] negative sense, just in the general [54:07] sense, is there's something AI can't do [54:11] even when you try to instruct it to do [54:13] so. It will not generate accessibility [54:16] ready code because it's learning from [54:19] crap code online. [54:21] And I'm not saying that it's the [54:23] developer's fault who put that code out [54:25] there now because this is just what [54:28] happened through um uh component [54:31] libraries and stuff that really need to [54:32] be improved. Um, but that is is one of [54:37] the things that worries me the most [54:38] because people are building sites and [54:41] they are following protocols and they're [54:43] creating something accessible and [54:45] suddenly they want something specific [54:47] that they can't find and then they run [54:49] into what are these plugins. They're [54:50] like, "Oh yeah, this is doing what I [54:52] want." Boom boom site rendered [54:54] inaccessible right there. Because that's [54:56] one thing you need to understand about [54:57] accessibility. A site is not a little [55:00] bit accessible. It either is accessible [55:03] or it is not. [55:07] >> Okay, thank you. Um, I'm just trying to [55:10] uh figure out what's going on in the [55:12] comments. There seems to be some twoing [55:13] and throwing between Taco and some other [55:16] people and I can't I can't quite keep up [55:18] with it. And because I can't keep up [55:19] with it, I can't figure out where it [55:20] begins. So, I can't quite put it on the [55:22] screen. [55:23] >> I can I followed that too. Okay. Well, [55:25] it started when um uh when we started [55:27] talking about AI and um um Jimmy, also [55:31] known as the webinar, [55:33] >> yeah, [55:34] >> uh mentioned that okay, you know, we [55:36] don't have to worry about AI. Um [55:39] WordPress has a great future. I'm not [55:41] scared of AI and the community is strong [55:43] enough to develop it further without AI. [55:46] It will assist us eventually, but far [55:47] from replacing it still. That's the one [55:49] that you quoted. [55:51] >> Yep. And then um the discussion went on [55:53] and Taco said, "I think you're very [55:55] wrong." And then Jim's like, "That's all [55:58] right. We can share a different in [56:00] opinion." You know, I love I love that [56:02] when people are good at at having a [56:04] dialogue. [56:05] >> And so yeah. And then Taco said [56:07] something that I'm really interested to [56:09] hear about. [56:10] >> What's this? Is it this one about [56:11] Google? [56:11] >> This one? Yes. [56:13] >> I don't know anything about this this [56:14] Sunday. So I'm reading. So that's in [56:17] response to the the webinar's comment. [56:19] So, Taco responded this Sunday. There [56:22] was already an announcement from Google [56:23] that's potentially problematic for WordP [56:27] Does anybody know what that is? I [56:29] literally taco. Will you share that with [56:31] us? [56:32] >> Yeah, if you're able to help us out, [56:33] we'll we'll be able to get a handle on [56:35] that. I don't know what that was. I'm [56:36] presuming it's related to search or AI. [56:39] I'm not entirely sure. Let's find out. [56:41] Um D, [56:44] anything else in there? No. Anyway, the [56:48] point of that article, the reason that I [56:50] was raising that one is if you if you do [56:53] have the capacity to generate um a [56:56] plug-in with AI and you submit it and [57:00] you don't keep the whole process going. [57:02] I'm I'm imagining this whole thing that [57:04] we're looking at on the screen here is a [57:06] bit of a plea for help. Um please don't [57:09] do that because you you are essentially [57:11] using up humans time. It's not like you [57:13] submit it and AI then inspects it and [57:15] you know drops you a yay or a nay. No, [57:19] this is involving real people's time and [57:21] if they get delugeed with an infinite [57:23] number of plugins each day then the [57:26] whole system sort of comes into question [57:28] and collapses a little bit. So uh that's [57:30] what I took from that anyway. [57:32] Um D right okay so in which case we will [57:36] move on uh and I'm going to go to this [57:41] one. I'm going to miss one out now. Taco [57:44] was on the show last week actually and [57:46] Taco uh helpfully gave me four four um [57:50] posts which Yoast like Yoast Devulk the [57:54] person not Yoast the company uh had [57:57] written and um and I knew I wouldn't [57:59] have time to do all four of them. So [58:00] again this is kind of interesting and it [58:02] goes to like the future of WordPress [58:04] being bright or not bright depending on [58:06] where you sit in terms of AI. And I've [58:08] picked this one out which he wrote on [58:10] December the 21st. It's a little bit [58:12] older, but um basically what what Yoast [58:15] is saying and there is a thread of [58:16] comments in this sits squarely in this [58:19] bigger thread. So there's more to read. [58:21] If you go to the bottom um of each of [58:24] the posts, then he he links to the sort [58:26] of following one or the preceding one or [58:27] what have you. Um, and he's saying that [58:30] in the like those people that are [58:32] concerned about AI, [58:34] if you're a developer, it would appear, [58:37] well, Yos argument at least anyway is [58:39] that the the cost of your line by line [58:43] code that you used to write is going [58:46] down. And it's really unrealistic in the [58:49] future. If you're competing on lines of [58:51] code written, you're in a losing battle. [58:54] you are, you know, you can't compete [58:56] against the output of an AI. Forget [58:59] whether it does good stuff. Forget all [59:00] of that. If it's just, you know, a [59:01] contest of who can write a plugin in a [59:05] given space of time, it's highly likely [59:08] that an AI will beat you to it. Again, [59:11] not saying it's secure, not saying it's [59:13] perfect, it's just fast, right? So, his [59:15] point is then in the future does this [59:19] sort of trouble open source? and he's [59:21] sort of thinking no because where we've [59:24] got to pivot to as expert I'm not a [59:26] developer so this is not me where [59:27] developers and such like need to pivot [59:30] to is and I've seen this word loads now [59:34] I don't know if you're seeing it as well [59:35] this word architect that seems to be a [59:38] real buzzword in the year 2020 latter [59:40] part of 2025 and the early part of 2026 [59:43] is you're going to be able to pitch your [59:45] skills not because you can write code [59:48] quickly but because you can architect [59:51] the project. You're the one that knows [59:54] what good looks like. You're the one [59:56] that knows what failure looks like. [59:58] You're the one that knows what the whole [60:00] thing looks like. And again, leaning [60:03] into Nat's piece where he's sanguin [60:05] about the future. Yoast seems to be [60:07] sanguin, but just it's a slightly [60:09] different future. You've got to pivot. [60:11] You've got to offer a different skill. [60:12] You've got to be the architect. And [60:15] there's more to it that you can see on [60:17] the screen, but I just thought that was [60:18] an interesting an interesting [60:20] commentary. So, more like managing the [60:22] whole thing, explaining your whole [60:24] project expertise. So, again, I don't [60:27] know if anybody Michelle or Mark or [60:29] anybody wants to jump in there. If you [60:31] want, go for it. [60:36] going [60:38] >> I was just say going back to the ADHD [60:40] thing, you know, we all we all look at [60:42] things from [60:44] from the big picture point of view. So, [60:47] this speaks to me. [60:49] >> I I agree uh largely with what what he's [60:54] saying here. [60:56] >> Um you could definitely there's like I [60:58] said, there's more to it. I can't [60:59] remember the names of the articles, but [61:00] there's three uh maybe this sits in the [61:03] middle and there's two before and one [61:04] after. I can't remember but go click on [61:06] the links in the show notes and um and [61:08] sorry again. [61:08] >> Yeah, I think I think the main word here [61:10] is is um being the architect. I think I [61:13] would put that as if you can give it [61:16] context. [61:17] An architect knows context. [61:20] >> Yeah. Yeah. [61:21] >> And that's that's basically it. If you [61:23] can give it the context in in every [61:25] possible way and you work with others [61:27] who can give context [61:29] >> and then you work together. [61:31] >> It's kind of interesting. So, I'm I'm [61:33] sure that Yos wasn't trying to be um [61:36] incendury, but he used the um he used [61:38] the analogy of being brick layers about [61:40] how kind of like a modern WordPress [61:42] build is in fact, let's just read it [61:45] out. He says, "In the past, the [61:46] developer was often a glorified brick [61:48] layer. [61:49] >> Success was found in the manual labor of [61:51] laying down stable reusable bricks of [61:54] code. Uh but when AI can manufacture and [61:57] lay those bricks instantly, the value of [61:59] the brick layer Yeah. [62:01] >> vanishes. So, so you know, but you still [62:04] you can't build the house without the [62:06] brick layer, but now the brick layer is [62:08] an AI, but equally you can't build the [62:11] house without the plan, the the plan [62:13] supplied by the the qualified architect [62:15] and what have you. And so that is where [62:18] uh he's repositioning. So the value now [62:20] now lies in again I'm quoting the value [62:22] now lies in the architect. This [62:23] architect this new role isn't about [62:25] syntax. It's about providing the three [62:27] things AI cannot yet originate. um [62:30] intent, the the why, um direction, [62:34] steering the solution, and finally the [62:37] logic, the structural how of doing [62:40] things as well. And so um so there's a [62:42] beach head he's painting uh in the year [62:45] 2026, the architect position, whether [62:47] whether or not the architect position is [62:49] still here in 2027 or that's been [62:53] slurped up by the AI as well. Yeah, but [62:55] this is this is the area that I still [62:57] have a the the creativity side of things [63:00] is where I have a hard time seeing AI [63:03] ever catching up. But it has come so far [63:06] in such a short time. I I would never [63:08] say never. But um but you still have to [63:11] feed into it into AI, hey, here's the [63:14] problem. And you can discuss with AI [63:17] what the solution might be, but it's [63:19] still you're still the driver of all [63:22] that. uh you know that solution. So it's [63:26] a matter of of just [63:29] taking you know a step back and and [63:32] looking at it from a more panoramic view [63:34] rather than you know at the at the micro [63:38] level I suppose. [63:40] >> Yeah. [63:41] >> Um so WP thank you for your commentary. [63:44] I see that you've written fair few [63:46] things. Appreciate that. Uh this one [63:48] though I think is in relation to what [63:50] we've just been talking about. 100% he [63:52] says I wrote uh this two years ago so I [63:55] guess something else uh AI age AI age is [64:00] a generalist age if you can understand [64:02] many complex concepts and how everything [64:05] works around you you will be the golden [64:07] person to work and grow with AI um uh [64:14] and then there's something about oh it [64:16] looks like comments that contain a URL [64:18] don't make it oh you mean into this [64:20] platform yeah Maybe if you've got a URL, [64:22] I don't know. I'm sorry about that. I'm [64:24] not sure. Yeah, maybe it strips those [64:26] out, Taco. But if you've got a follow-up [64:28] and you want to give us the name of the [64:30] article, maybe we could Google it. Um, [64:32] and oh, we always get the fun Twitch [64:35] comment that bears no relation to what [64:37] we're talking about at all. So, thank [64:38] you, whoever you are, for uh creating an [64:41] AI bot, which drops a silly, pointless [64:43] comment into into our show each week. [64:45] Wonderful. So, there we go. That's that [64:47] one. Um, I'm just seeing if those [64:50] comments are catching up. Okay, [64:53] something. It's on Yos blog, says T, but [64:56] I don't know which one. All right. [64:58] Right, right, right, right. Okay, let's [65:00] move on. So Dave Gray, he's often on the [65:04] show. Dave's been fabulous actually at [65:06] dropping in at the last minute. I'm very [65:07] appreciative of Dave when guests have [65:09] canceled and things like that. He's [65:10] always been around. He's in the UK, so [65:12] his time zone overlaps with mine, but [65:14] he's also very gracious with his time. [65:16] So, thank you Dave. And um Dave has this [65:20] which I thought you might like to see. [65:21] Uh he's been on a bit of a clip creating [65:23] little utility plugins um for the [65:26] WordPress back end. And this is a great [65:28] one. It's called Media Library [65:29] Essentials. And um guess what it does? [65:32] It adapts the media library so that you [65:34] can do a whole bunch more stuff with it. [65:36] I think in the near future the media [65:38] library is going to get a bit of an [65:39] overhaul, but for now um if you're [65:41] dissatisfied with it, this is the sort [65:43] of stuff it can do. You can view and set [65:45] featured images. You can bulk download [65:47] media and images. Add categories and [65:49] tags to images. So in other words, you [65:51] know, if you want to that for me is the [65:53] big one. I can never find things because [65:55] I can't put them in particular silos. [65:58] Image usage counts and file sizes. You [66:00] can get the image dimensions and also [66:02] you can get a pop-up preview which is [66:04] demonstrated just there. You can [66:06] actually see what this is about. Um it's [66:09] not a vast plugin that does a vast [66:11] amount of stuff. And so Dave as he is [66:13] want to do prices it effect prices it [66:16] accordingly. You can get it for life one [66:18] time price it's $20 $19.99 or 19.99 [66:25] and you know the number of sites goes [66:26] up. You can buy one site for 20 bucks or [66:29] you can buy 200 sites for uh 99 bucks. [66:33] So maybe throw Dave a bone and uh go for [66:36] the 200 site if that's your thing. There [66:38] we go. Anything on that? I just wanted [66:40] to give him a hat tip. [66:43] >> Just it's just a great guy. [66:45] >> Yeah, [66:45] >> I remember he started I don't know if it [66:47] was two years ago, maybe three even, I [66:50] don't know. [66:51] >> He I met him on on X online and we were [66:54] talking and he was just constantly um [66:57] sharing his thoughts and ideas about the [67:00] plugins he's developing and the services [67:02] he was um uh offering to people. And I [67:06] this guy is is so helpful and he has [67:10] these interesting ideas about marketing. [67:13] >> Um I don't know whose show he was on. He [67:16] was invited [67:17] >> with a completely different view on [67:19] marketing than everybody else has [67:21] >> and how he wanted to market. [67:23] >> Oh yeah, I did a podcast with him. That [67:24] was me. [67:25] >> That was me. Yeah. I remember sitting [67:28] driving the car from Munich all the way [67:30] back up north in Germany and and [67:31] listening to that. That was insane. [67:34] Don't ever listen to my podcast whilst [67:36] driving a car just so that much. It [67:39] brings on insom, you know, it removes [67:41] insomnia and brings on sleep. So, uh, [67:44] just be careful operating the wind. [67:47] This is, this is Dave's website, by the [67:49] way. It's friendly webbguy.co.uk. And in [67:51] towards the latter part of 2025, he [67:54] decided to um quit his sort of day job [67:57] and get into making plugins and browser [68:00] extensions and things like that his [68:02] thing. So, he's just sort of beginning [68:04] and obviously the more sales he gets, [68:05] the more that he can do uh things. Yeah, [68:08] it was around the pricing of some of his [68:10] products. You've got this interesting [68:11] way of uh pricing it and marketing it [68:14] directly to hosting companies as opposed [68:16] to individual sales. [68:18] >> That was the that was the tactics. And [68:20] >> so, you thought that we'd talked all we [68:22] could about accessibility, but no, we [68:24] haven't. This is the last one. Um, this [68:26] is, um, isn't it funny when you go [68:29] around the web and you use a particular [68:31] theme and you can spot it straight away? [68:33] I am going to bet that this site is [68:35] built using Ollie. Um, I have no idea if [68:39] it is. Let's have a just a quick scroll [68:40] and see. I'm I think so. I would bet my [68:43] life Yeah, that comment section is [68:45] Ollie. Let's have a look. There you go. [68:48] Look, [68:48] >> it's um, it's the fog. [68:50] >> It's Yeah, the spleing and Yeah, [68:52] anything. Anyway, rah, go and check out [68:55] Ollie. It's a very good blockbased [68:56] theme. Um, this is the block [68:59] accessibility checks website, blocks [69:02] accessibility checks.com. [69:04] And, uh, Troy on the 1 of January [69:06] released this blocks accessibility [69:08] checks 3.0, advanced validation control [69:11] for WordPress. I confess I had not [69:13] really heard of this thing, so it was [69:16] all a bit new to me. And the first [69:17] little section of the the post is, you [69:20] know, it's technical, so we won't go [69:22] into it, but I didn't realize that this [69:25] tool even existed. You throw it into [69:28] your WordPress website and then [69:30] helpfully in the same way that Yoast got [69:32] us all thinking about traffic lights and [69:34] oh, that's a failure because it's red. [69:37] Go and have a look at that thing. It [69:38] would appear and and maybe you can speak [69:40] to this or anybody else in fact um it [69:43] would appear that it offers sort of like [69:44] a similar functionality but on a [69:47] blockby-block basis [69:49] given the accessibility requirements of [69:52] that block. So the button needs these [69:54] things, the paragraph needs these [69:55] things, the link needs this thing and on [69:58] you go and um [70:00] >> and so there's been an update to that. [70:02] If you can see the screen, then we're [70:04] looking at a screenshot of how the [70:05] plug-in will kind of like add a layer on [70:08] top of what you're looking at to call [70:10] out on the block itself. Look, this [70:13] button needs work or look, this table [70:15] needs work. And it's kind of gets out [70:17] the way, but is kind of also in the way [70:19] so that you can't really avoid it. And [70:21] then helpfully in the sidebar on the [70:23] right hand side, it kind of groups [70:26] problems into categories like errors and [70:29] warnings and what have you. And then you [70:31] just go through and fix them one at a [70:33] time. So I'd not heard of this. They're [70:35] on version 3.0. It just looked like a [70:37] really cool project to give you a [70:39] helping hand if accessibility is indeed [70:41] not your thing. So [70:44] >> it is. [70:45] >> There we go. [70:45] >> It is. Joy started working with this on [70:48] this I think only a few months ago. [70:50] >> Yep. [70:51] >> And I remember I saw him post something [70:53] about it on LinkedIn. So, um, [70:57] immediately I yelled like, "Troy, I want [71:00] to try that." [71:02] Um, and, um, I also loved, um, the [71:06] philosophy behind it because there's a [71:09] comparable plug-in called the [71:10] accessibility checker, uh, by Equalized [71:14] Digital. [71:14] >> Yes, that's the one I'd heard. Um the [71:16] background of this is that Troy and his [71:20] team manage 800 university websites in a [71:25] multi-sight environment. Okay. Right. [71:27] >> So we're talking about an environment [71:28] where everything else has been set [71:32] >> colors um branding everything. So this [71:35] is purely focused on content itself. [71:39] People literally writing stuff. They [71:41] don't do anything in the design or [71:43] anything else. So um I think originally [71:46] he created that for them and then he [71:49] decided to um remodel it into something [71:53] that actually anyone can use. So um it's [71:56] actually um a very lightweight uh [72:00] plug-in um that uh if you already are [72:05] where you have to be with everything [72:06] else in accessibility, you could use [72:09] this uh on your projects or you could [72:12] use accessibility checker. But I I this [72:14] is where it came from and I absolutely [72:17] adore it. [72:18] >> Yeah, it looks really nice. I mean, [72:20] we've got um we've got somebody in the [72:22] comment. I can't remember who it was. I [72:23] think it might have been Courtney. Yeah, [72:25] there we go. Courtney Robertson, who's [72:28] off on the show last week, actually. Um [72:30] using Troy's plugin on my site. I've [72:32] also have it in a testing environment to [72:34] be sure what I create passes. Um would [72:38] recommend hitting TroP for UI UX [72:41] brainstorming too. [72:43] Uh, and then Taco makes the point that [72:45] is it similar to the equal equalized [72:47] digital accessibility checker? And from [72:49] what Ann's saying, it sounds like it is [72:51] fairly similar. Maybe there's a maybe [72:53] there's some, you know, clear blue sky [72:54] between the two. But, um, anyway, there [72:56] we go. Um, but it was really that [72:59] screenshot that made me kind of pause [73:01] and think, even I can get that. Um, and [73:06] Mark was saying earlier he's no [73:07] accessibility expert. I hope you can [73:09] join me in saying, yeah, I can do that. [73:11] you know, that looks like something I [73:13] could get into. [73:14] >> Um, and there you go. So, check it out. [73:18] >> I think um I think um the one of the uh [73:22] differences between Equalized Digital is [73:25] exactly this question. Does it only work [73:27] with FSE? I think this is um a block [73:31] plugin. Yes. [73:33] >> Yeah. Okay. So, this one that's on the [73:35] screen now from Troy, that's an FSE [73:37] based solution, whereas the equalized [73:39] digital one stretches a little bit [73:40] further, does it? Does it go out to [73:42] >> Yeah, digital works for everybody, [73:44] >> right? Okay, great. Anyway, go and check [73:47] that out. Um, I'll link to it in the [73:49] show notes as I mentioned. And let me [73:52] take that comment off. Um, this is for [73:55] the the people who love their headless [73:57] stuff. I confess I'm not an expert in [74:00] any of this stuff, but I know that there [74:01] are certain members of the audience who [74:03] love all this. And it's a new tool. It's [74:05] called Phantom WP and it's kind of SAS [74:08] meets um WordPress meets Versel meets [74:12] headless meets GitHub. There's a lot of [74:15] spinning wheels here. It's still in beta [74:17] and I think you have to um kind of if [74:20] you want to jump on board, I think you [74:21] got to submit an email and then um you [74:24] know you'll get on boarded and you pay [74:25] like a um like an opening price. You [74:28] know, they've got this pricing at the [74:30] moment which is going to be different to [74:31] the one that you'll eventually pay. And [74:33] essentially what it does is it allows [74:35] you to have a a headless WordPress [74:37] backend um somewhere online. Then their [74:42] software does all the managing of [74:43] putting that into a GitHub repo, [74:45] connecting it to Versell and then [74:46] Versell will then consume it and it will [74:50] be published using Astro. So there's a [74:53] lot going on. [74:54] >> There's a lot of moving parts. But if [74:56] you're into all of that, um, this tool I [74:58] had a play I managed to and I really [75:02] don't know what I'm doing and I managed [75:04] to get a WordPress website up and [75:06] running on Versel using Astro as the [75:09] sort of theming layer and and it worked [75:11] exactly as as I expected. It took [75:14] minutes and man alive is that Astro [75:17] stuff fast. um once it's actually [75:20] published on the front end, that's [75:21] obviously the the reason you're doing it [75:23] is to make everything sort of more or [75:24] less static and fast and what [75:26] >> it's plain HTML. [75:28] >> Yeah. Yeah. It's really really really [75:30] brilliant. Anyway, so if if you if [75:33] you're curious about that, it's called [75:34] Phantom [75:36] WP. What's the URL? Oh, it's exactly. [75:39] >> Yeah, it's phantomwp with a ph. [75:42] Phantomwp.com. [75:44] Like I said, I've had a play. I'm going [75:46] to try and get Oidu, who's the developer [75:48] behind this, onto the podcast so he can [75:50] explain to me actually what's going on [75:52] because I just clicked the next button [75:55] in most situations. Now, do this. Now, [75:57] do this. Oh, you got a website. Yeah, [75:59] sure enough. I do have a website. That's [76:01] great. I'm not clever enough to know [76:02] what's going on, but um go check it out. [76:05] Anybody on that? [76:08] Okay. Right. Another tool very quickly. [76:12] Uh, I have a variety of tools in my kit [76:15] which do what Falcon is doing. I've not [76:17] heard of Falcon before. It's new. Um, [76:19] essentially it allows you to, well, the [76:21] claim is faster, cleaner, more secure. [76:24] It it you install this into your [76:26] WordPress uh website. It's a plugin and [76:29] then they say it brings 49 carefully [76:31] crafted optimization modules into one [76:34] place. So, it is things like you can see [76:36] on the screen here, disable and you [76:39] won't be happy. uh disable Gutenberg. [76:42] That's one of the options that you can [76:44] do if you want to get rid of that. You [76:45] can disable the heartbeat. Yeah, you can [76:48] disable embeds. You can disable [76:49] comments, remove the website field [76:51] comment form, disable revisions, disable [76:54] self pings, disable blah blah blah blah [76:56] blah, you know, all of that kind of [76:57] stuff. Uh but then there's a whole bunch [76:59] of other things, you know, improvements [77:00] to the media library, a bit like the [77:01] plug-in we just mentioned. Uh they'll do [77:03] SMTP for you so that you don't have to [77:06] have a third party plugin for that. [77:08] security. So presumably it's dealing [77:10] with things like the rest API switching [77:11] that on and WPM XML and WPL I can never [77:15] say that the one ending oh there XML RPC [77:19] that's what's trying to come out of my [77:20] mouth [77:21] >> uh I've not used it caveat mtor so there [77:24] it is wp falcon [77:27] uhpro if you want to go check it out [77:30] >> again [77:30] >> I'm just very curious um whenever [77:33] someone creates a plugin that is not [77:35] niche that is there's something like [77:38] what what's the idea about I'd love to [77:40] hear that from I have a different one [77:42] called ASSE which is admin [77:45] >> site enhancements which I think which I [77:48] think basically maps a lot of the [77:49] functionality here and I put it on [77:52] everything now because it's just this [77:53] one plugin which does a lot of the [77:56] things that I would normally maybe use a [77:58] snippet for like I don't want emojis in [78:00] most of the sites that I'm touching. I' [78:02] no need for that so I I use it for that. [78:05] Plus it's got the SMTP stuff so I don't [78:07] need a third party plugin for that. [78:08] >> Oh yeah. [78:09] >> You know all of that kind of stuff. So, [78:10] it's pretty neat. Uh, anyway, there we [78:12] go. Falcon, what was it called? WP [78:15] falcon.pro. Go check it out. All right. [78:19] I'm not going to uh I wish I had time [78:22] for this. I might come back to this next [78:23] week, but uh I think both me and [78:25] Michelle agreed this is this is a tasty [78:27] looking website. [78:29] >> Um, [78:29] >> absolutely. Oh, it's called WordPress [78:32] security in good hands. And uh it's [78:35] really long and I I read it, but then [78:38] this morning I kind of realized I I need [78:40] to do a whole show on just this one [78:42] because it's quite long. But man, look [78:44] look how nice this is. [78:47] >> Look at it all. [78:48] >> Michelle, you called it something really [78:49] nice. I just forgot. [78:52] >> I called it um Montipythonesque. [78:54] >> Yeah, right. That's a great expression. [78:58] has the Montipython feel, but it's long. [79:01] Very, very long. But I love the [79:03] aesthetic. It just makes me feel like [79:04] I'm doing so much. That's the one. [79:06] Right. You You're imagining if you can. [79:10] >> If you can get past the um the killer [79:12] rabbits at the very end, you get the [79:14] Holy Grail. [79:15] >> Oh. Oh, where? Where? Hold on. [79:17] >> No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm [79:19] >> just I want to see the I want to see the [79:21] flying cow. I mean, if you're going to [79:22] do all the flying cow, [79:24] >> I'm just making a joke. I'm making [79:26] >> I promise to do a deep dive into this at [79:28] some point. We will definitely get it. [79:30] But [79:30] >> it's definitely long and involved which [79:32] >> yeah got a lot out but [79:34] >> um anyway I'll come back to that another [79:36] week but because it was there and it was [79:37] beautiful I thought we'd um raise it on [79:39] the screen. Security [79:42] >> uh Taco actually put this in my path I [79:44] think towards the end of last week. Um [79:48] >> fake WordPress domain renewal emails [79:50] targeting admins to steal credit card [79:53] data. So, you know, we've been there [79:54] before, but we've got a new round of it. [79:57] >> People sending out credible looking [79:58] emails purporting to come from [80:00] WordPress.com, [80:02] >> um, claiming that your WordPress website [80:04] is about to expire. You know, your.com [80:06] renewal is coming up and what have you. [80:08] And they look legit. Everything about [80:10] them looks totally kosher. Uh, except of [80:12] course when your bank account is emptied [80:14] because you type in the details of your [80:16] credit card number [80:18] >> to a fake website. So, just be on the [80:21] lookout and maybe warn your clients that [80:23] this is due in the rounds. I don't know [80:25] if it's been closed down now because [80:27] this email, this post is like six days [80:30] out of date now, but [80:31] >> you know, [80:33] don't ever [80:34] >> It's a good reminder not Yeah. not to [80:36] click the link. If you if you're getting [80:37] a notification that you need to renew [80:39] something, go log in [80:41] >> through your normal login and see if [80:42] that's accurate or not. [80:44] >> Any of you ever done it? Have any of you [80:46] ever accidentally done like have been [80:49] the not just the recipient of but you've [80:51] actually gone through all the steps and [80:53] been defrauded? [80:55] >> Thank god I haven't. [80:56] >> No, you're all too savvy for that. [80:58] That's good. [80:58] >> I smell those a mile away. [81:01] >> Yeah, [81:01] >> I I'm I'm suspicious of everything all [81:04] the time anyway. [81:06] >> Yeah, even the legit stuff. Yeah, he was [81:08] >> if my kids if my kids say good morning [81:11] to me, I have to like verify [81:14] >> to or it didn't happen. [81:16] >> Oh, yeah. I love I love getting these [81:18] WhatsApp messages from from the 25 [81:22] different kids that I never had. [81:24] >> Yes. Yeah, that's right. [81:25] >> They have a new phone number. [81:26] >> But it's really clever, you know, that [81:28] they look totally legitimate. You know, [81:30] they got the correct logos and the fonts [81:32] all correct and all that kind of stuff. [81:33] So, just beware. But I think the the the [81:35] central pillar of the argument is if you [81:38] didn't ask for it, don't click it. You [81:40] know, unless you literally said, "I want [81:43] an email from you," then don't do it. In [81:46] the um [81:47] >> many of them will spoof the email [81:48] addresses, but [81:50] >> most of them are from some weird Gmail [81:52] account. And I just you have to know [81:54] that PayPal, your hosting sites, [81:56] everything is not coming from Gmail. [81:58] >> If it's coming from Gmail, just [82:00] absolutely delete it right away. Um, so [82:02] Sinan, no, sorry, this is Taco. Um, [82:05] Taco's actually had he's been the victim [82:07] of it. His card was skimmed at an ATM [82:09] whilst he was using it. [82:11] >> That's terrible. [82:12] >> That whole thing where they put like an [82:13] extra layer of something outside of the [82:16] ATM, but it looks like the bit where you [82:18] put your card in and it passes through [82:20] that before it gets to the actual [82:23] >> card rate. I mean, gosh, they get your [82:25] money back. [82:26] >> He says abroad. Abroad probably means it [82:29] happened here in the United States. He [82:31] uh [82:31] >> I I actually I actually have a solution [82:33] for that which is just have no money in [82:35] your bank account. [82:36] >> Yeah, that's a great way. [82:38] >> Never a problem. [82:39] >> Yeah. Um and then Sinan says even when [82:42] he's too drunk to read the emails, he [82:44] wouldn't fall for those. No. Good. But [82:46] they obviously make an impression [82:48] otherwise they wouldn't do it. I'm [82:49] guessing, would they? [82:50] >> Um sure. [82:52] >> Nomad skateboarding says gets a lot of [82:53] fishing attempts for renewal from my [82:55] gravitar profile. Oh, that's because [82:57] it's so public, right? It's scrapable. [83:00] public data. There's a few times when [83:02] I've definitely been the recipient and [83:04] I've spotted it. So, I always just open [83:07] I use Gmail and I don't know if you ever [83:09] noticed there's a little like a like a [83:11] details block at the in the header of [83:14] your uh Gmail account where you can [83:15] click it and it'll expose some limited [83:18] but important data about who actually [83:21] sent it. So, it'll say what domain it [83:23] came from. Um, and if you read that line [83:26] by line, um, you'll know, you know, [83:29] because it's coming from google.com, not [83:32] Google.com [83:33] or something approximating it. And in [83:35] that way, you can see what's going on. [83:38] >> Uh, oh, he got his money back. Oh, [83:39] that's all right. That's good. But they [83:41] blocked my card, so I couldn't use the [83:42] bank account for the next two weeks. Oh, [83:44] no. [83:45] >> That is something that I do recommend to [83:47] people is especially with credit cards, [83:49] you can actually freeze them. Yeah, [83:51] >> I keep all my credit cards frozen all [83:53] the time. [83:54] >> Uh, and only unfreeze them when I need [83:57] to use them. [83:58] >> How does that work though if you've got [83:59] like subscriptions like let's say for [84:01] example, I don't know, Spotify or [84:03] something like that? [84:04] >> Do you use a separate one which is [84:06] always on frozen or something? [84:08] >> Yeah. Well, what uh what you can do is [84:10] there's also these um one of the cards [84:12] that I have actually allows for me to [84:14] create a digital card specifically for a [84:17] subscription. [84:18] >> Oh, okay. [84:20] and and that uh that also protects me. [84:22] But um but I have gotten the only [84:25] problem is there'll be times when I go [84:26] to a restaurant and I put it on a credit [84:28] card and I forget to unfreeze it and it [84:29] gets declined and then I have to pull [84:32] out my phone and you know [84:34] >> bad moment where Yeah. Yeah. [84:36] >> Um and then look at this. This is I I [84:38] I'm sure I've seen this before, but I'd [84:40] forgotten about it. Uh Webort says Oh [84:43] no. Yeah. that one where a fishing email [84:45] combined an R and an N in a font I guess [84:48] which collided them quite close together [84:50] to make it look like the letter M. [84:53] >> Yeah. There's another one uh where [84:55] people use cerillic characters. [84:57] >> Yeah. [84:58] >> Right. [84:58] >> Or or a zero instead of an O. Um pretty [85:03] common or a one instead of an I like I [85:05] think City Bank. City Bank there was one [85:08] where people were using a one instead of [85:10] an I for City Bank. And [85:12] >> you've got to think with the advent of [85:14] like mobile banking that this whole [85:17] fishing thing has become a lot more [85:18] difficult because in in many situations [85:21] now I'm getting a notification [85:23] immediately on a phone the minute [85:25] anything is like anything is purchased [85:28] you know even if you spend a couple of [85:29] pennies here there and every you get a [85:31] notification to say that happened which [85:33] is obviously wasn't the case back in the [85:35] day and um and a lot of the um the [85:38] confirmation steps you know where you'll [85:39] go through you'll go through the click [85:41] purchase and then the bank somehow gets [85:44] in the way and says right now go to the [85:47] app. [85:47] >> Yeah. [85:47] >> Click in the app. And you got to think [85:49] that's that's helping. [85:51] >> Well, but the thing that you have to [85:52] also keep in mind is that this is like [85:55] security people have to react to [85:57] whatever the scam is. So, it's always a [85:59] reactionary thing. So, there's always [86:01] going to be like this sweet spot for the [86:03] scammers [86:05] before the security people come up with [86:06] the solution for it. And then the [86:08] scammers have moved on to the next [86:09] >> Yeah. they got the next thing going. [86:11] >> They got the next thing going. So, it's [86:12] always when you're reacting rather, you [86:15] can't always be proactive. You can to a [86:17] certain degree, but you can't always be [86:18] proactive when you're when you're the [86:20] guys designing the security. So, there's [86:22] always going to be that that person that [86:24] comes up with the creative way to [86:26] >> I am not going to endorse that [86:28] lifestyle, but there must it must be [86:30] quite fun. You know what I mean? being [86:33] one of those people constantly trying to [86:34] outthink these. [86:36] >> You know, I always I always say I'd [86:38] rather get scammed by the person who [86:40] back to the architect, the person who [86:42] architect it because at least they take [86:44] pride in their craft and I can at least [86:47] respect that. [86:48] >> It's the people who just copy it that [86:50] that I, you know, it's like the smash [86:51] and grabbers I have no respect for. But [86:53] the people who actually put the thought [86:55] into it, I can at least at that level [86:57] respect, you know, that they that they [86:59] take pride in what they're doing even [87:02] awful awful stuff. [87:03] >> Yeah. So, Taco says, "Tell me tell tell [87:06] me you have teenagers without saying you [87:07] have teenagers notifications [87:10] for every spend." Yeah. No, that's just [87:12] that is the way this the app works. You [87:14] can't step you can't turn it off. It's [87:16] like that is how they that's durable. [87:20] And then Elliot says, "If you have [87:21] WordPress clients who are less [87:23] techsavvy, yeah, good point. One thing [87:25] to worry about is them getting fishing [87:27] email scam related to their website. So, [87:29] it's worth educating them about." [87:31] >> Absolutely. [87:32] >> Had a few clients, says Elliot, carrying [87:34] on in the past, forward emails to me and [87:37] ask to ask if it was legit. Well, good [87:39] for them that they actually did that as [87:40] well. That's brilliant that they [87:42] forwarded the things because they were [87:44] concerned. Right, we're going to round [87:45] this show off with uh a few WordPressy [87:48] events. In that case, let's do this. So, [87:50] here's the first one. So, all of these [87:52] are happening in the next month. It's an [87:54] international spread, but uh here we go. [87:56] First one is to say that if you fancy [87:59] going to Word Camp Europe, which is in [88:01] Kov in Poland, it's the 4th to the 6th [88:03] of June, tickets are now um available. [88:08] Uh you've got, you know, the usual [88:11] general admission ticket, €50, or you [88:14] got a micro sponsor ticket. when we [88:16] before we clicked go on this episode, [88:18] somebody had something else to add to [88:19] this one. I think seem to remember. [88:21] >> Yeah. The call call for speakers is open [88:23] till the end of this month. [88:25] >> Okay. [88:25] >> Yeah. [88:25] >> So, if you want to be part of the [88:27] speaker, here we go. The open call [88:28] section here is what you want to. So, if [88:30] you would like to speak at that event, [88:32] you can. Um and [88:36] Word Camp Nepal if you're listening to [88:38] us in that part of the world. Um [88:41] the that's now officially got a [88:45] scheduled date and it's coming up soon. [88:46] It's going to be the 23rd to the 24th of [88:48] Jan. So if you're in that part of the [88:50] world, it's happening soon. Uh two more [88:55] word camp zarovsa which we all agreed [88:58] was a marvelous word. Um, I can't read [89:00] any of that because I don't speak [89:02] whatever that is. Um, but I it's [89:05] happening in the in the next the next [89:07] small amount of time. It's definitely [89:09] happening. [89:09] >> It says a day for learning, connecting, [89:12] and creating with WordPress. [89:13] >> Oh, you're so good. Thank you. [89:15] >> I'm learning Spanish. [89:17] >> And what are the dates? I can't [89:19] remember, but it's happening 24th. Let's [89:22] let's imagine that 24th is 24th of [89:25] January. I don't know, but I know that [89:28] it's very soon. So, word camps are [89:31] >> as January. [89:32] >> Yeah. And by the way, um, quickly, uh, [89:35] certain back to Word Camp Europe, um, we [89:38] have the webinar with us. He's just been [89:40] commenting, you know, we've been talking [89:41] about that. It's Jimmy Tavaris, and he [89:44] actually made a lovely video about why [89:49] you should go to work Europe. [89:51] >> Oh, okay. [89:52] >> I'll share the link with you. [89:53] >> Yeah, share the link and we'll stick in [89:55] the next show. [89:56] >> It was such a such a lovely video. I'll [89:58] share it with you. [89:58] >> Yeah, thank you. Um, uh, I've managed to [90:01] translate it using the the button in the [90:03] browser. So, yeah, there we go. 24th of [90:04] January, Word Camp Sarakosa. And last, [90:07] but by no means least, on today's [90:09] agenda, right at the end of the month, [90:10] 31st, spanning into February, se 1st of [90:12] February, 31st of Jan, 1st of February, [90:15] 26 is word camp. [90:17] Again, apologies if I've butchered the [90:19] name of that. So, there are the four [90:20] international ones that I know about. [90:22] There may be some more that I've missed, [90:23] but uh, apologies for that. But, anyway, [90:26] there you go. That's your smorggas board [90:29] of WordPress events that you can take [90:31] part in during the next few weeks. [90:34] Right, last few comments just to clean [90:36] up. What did we got? Um, [90:40] there's a few coming in. Pinball. What? [90:44] Reys has dropped in. Word word camp [90:46] crackoff. Pinball museum. There's a [90:48] pinball museum in Kov I think is what [90:50] you're trying to say. [90:51] >> That sounds pretty cool. [90:52] >> Yeah, that is a cool I'm I'm up for that [90:54] Ree if I'm going to go to that event. [90:56] So, if you want to go to the pinball [90:58] museum, I will come and I will play you [91:00] at pinball and I will lose because I [91:02] >> I actually hope they also have some [91:05] susball tables or Yes. Oh, [91:08] >> we've just organized the whole thing [91:10] now. That's going to be great. Um, and [91:12] then something about stroop waffles. Um, [91:14] bring some strooles to remind us the [91:16] good times. Oh, there's obviously a [91:18] thing going on between taco and uh the [91:20] weather not that's really nice. And then [91:22] there's a few other comments that have [91:23] dropped in. Pinball museum. I'm game. [91:28] Uh D. I don't know why you have the [91:30] numbers after your name either, but you [91:32] know, maybe it's something to do with [91:33] your age in weeks or [91:36] I doubt it. That would make you really [91:38] old. Uh I hope to meet you there, [91:40] Nathan. Indeed, that would be nice. I [91:42] will be there with bells on. I actually [91:46] won't. I'm not going to be taking any [91:47] bells, but [91:48] >> I think you I think you should wear [91:50] bells. [91:50] >> Okay. It's a thing. I'm going to wear [91:52] some bells. Uh we'll see. Um but yeah, [91:57] okay. I'll be at Word Camp Asia as well. [91:58] If anybody's going to that, I'm quite [92:00] looking forward to that in the uh in the [92:02] next few months as well. So if you want [92:04] to hang out, I would love to hear from [92:05] you. That's it. That's all we've got [92:07] time for. It only remains for me to say [92:09] firstly, thank you. Go around the panel. [92:12] Thank you to Mark Benzerane who is I [92:14] don't know where he is, but it looks [92:16] lovely. And the sun hasn't moved in [92:19] >> I I don't know where I am either. Yeah, [92:22] but that sunset, it's cool. It goes on [92:24] for hours. Uh Michelle down there, nice [92:28] to have you with us as well. Thank you. [92:30] And obviously and Mika Blet as well. [92:32] There she is. Hopefully you'll come back [92:34] and join us for another show. That would [92:35] be really nice. [92:36] >> And of course, it goes without saying if [92:39] you if you opened up your keyboard and [92:41] mouse and you typed something, uh we all [92:44] love you very much. You are brilliant [92:46] and uh we appreciate you joining us on [92:48] this particular episode. But it'll come [92:50] out as a podcast tomorrow morning. So, [92:53] look out for that. And an I don't know [92:55] if you know, we have this humiliating [92:57] handwave thing that we do. [92:58] >> I know. [92:59] >> The end of every single episode. Oh, you [93:01] know about it. Okay, that's fine. You're [93:02] all prepared. Look at you. [93:03] >> Oh, this makes my [93:05] >> Oh, yeah. That is so weird. [93:06] >> That's actually [93:09] >> Oh, that's great. Uh, I love that. I'm [93:12] going to zoom into that, I think. Um, in [93:15] which case, we'll see you next week. You [93:17] have a good time. And if the three of [93:18] you want to hang out for a little bit, [93:19] just stick around and we'll speak soon. [93:22] >> But the rest of you, take care. Bye [93:24] >> bye. [93:25] >> Bye.