2027 Is The Year Websites Die (Apparently) - Let's Talk

2027 Is The Year Websites Die (Apparently) - Let's Talk 🔗 **Source:** [2027 Is The Year Websites Die (Apparently) - Let's Talk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCTO14S7Cfw) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [web-design, artificial-intelligence, wordpress-future, industry-disruption] > author: [Lightbox and Jeffrey] > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCTO14S7Cfw > date created: 2025-01-11 14:30 > > # 🏷️ Title: 2027 Is The Year Websites Die (Apparently) - Let's Talk >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Learn prompt engineering for AI website builders — adapt to AI-driven development #skill-development - [H2] Transition from website builder to growth partner — strategic business role shift #business-model - [H3] Evaluate WordPress alternatives like Web Studio — diversify platform expertise #tool-evaluation ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [WordPress Developer Resources](https://developer.wordpress.org/) - [Bolt AI Website Builder](https://bolt.new/) - [Lovable AI Platform](https://lovable.ai/) ## 📝 Summary - Two web design professionals discuss predictions that websites will disappear by 2027 due to AI disruption - AI tools like Bolt and Lovable can now create complex, database-driven sites with simple prompts - Web designers need to evolve from builders to growth partners, focusing on business strategy over technical implementation - WordPress faces challenges from legacy code, complex full-site editing, and rising ecosystem costs - Content creators experiencing significant drops in viewership and engagement across the industry ## 📖 Main Content Two experienced web professionals examine alarming industry predictions about the death of websites by 2027. The conversation explores how AI tools are rapidly advancing to create sophisticated websites that previously required significant development expertise. They discuss the human tendency to resist change while acknowledging the writing on the wall for traditional web design roles. Key themes include the need for web professionals to evolve beyond technical building into strategic business partnerships, WordPress's uncertain future amid increasing complexity and costs, and the broader economic factors affecting content creation and audience engagement in the industry. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/cCTO14S7Cfw?t=0) — [H1] Industry Predictions: Websites Gone by 2027 - Key idea: AI agency owner predicts websites will no longer exist within a year - Evidence: "He was talking with somebody running an AI agency and they told him in a year's time websites will no longer be needed" #### ⏱️ [05:23](https://youtu.be/cCTO14S7Cfw?t=323) — [H2] Human Nature Resistance to Change - Key idea: People's established internet usage patterns won't change overnight - Evidence: "We always seem to overlook human nature... people are not going to suddenly go 'Oh, the internet, I'm not going to bother with websites'" #### ⏱️ [12:45](https://youtu.be/cCTO14S7Cfw?t=765) — [H3] AI Information Reliability Issues - Key idea: Current AI search results contain significant factual errors - Evidence: "Advanced custom fields doesn't create custom post types and doesn't create custom taxonomies, which we know it does" #### ⏱️ [18:30](https://youtu.be/cCTO14S7Cfw?t=1110) — [H1] Evolution Required for Web Designers - Key idea: Web designers must adapt their skills and embrace new technologies or face obsolescence - Evidence: "We have to evolve... Web designers are no longer going to get away doing the same thing they were doing 3, 4 years ago" #### ⏱️ [25:15](https://youtu.be/cCTO14S7Cfw?t=1515) — [H2] Growth Partner Model vs Website Builder - Key idea: Future lies in becoming strategic business partners rather than technical implementers - Evidence: "Building a website is a skill... but as a growth partner, this is where you start looking at the strategy behind the company" #### ⏱️ [32:40](https://youtu.be/cCTO14S7Cfw?t=1960) — [H3] Content Creation Industry Impact - Key idea: Declining viewership across web design content suggests broader industry shifts - Evidence: "My numbers, like numbers just dropped... it's had an effect on me" #### ⏱️ [38:20](https://youtu.be/cCTO14S7Cfw?t=2300) — [H1] WordPress Market Share Decline - Key idea: WordPress likely to lose significant market share over next two years - Evidence: "I don't think it'll still be powering a high majority, but I don't know about 40%" #### ⏱️ [45:10](https://youtu.be/cCTO14S7Cfw?t=2710) — [H2] WordPress Complexity Problems - Key idea: WordPress becoming more complex while competitors simplify user experience - Evidence: "Full-site editing for a lot of people is more complex than it used to be" #### ⏱️ [52:30](https://youtu.be/cCTO14S7Cfw?t=3150) — [H3] AI Building Tools Demonstration - Key idea: Complete beginners can create complex database-driven sites using AI - Evidence: "Guy never built a website in his life... he's got a site that's got booking, shows... would be a 5 to 10 grand website" #### ⏱️ [58:45](https://youtu.be/cCTO14S7Cfw?t=3525) — [H2] WordPress Legacy Code Issues - Key idea: WordPress's 20-year-old architecture creates technical debt and limitations - Evidence: "WordPress code... it's a bastardized bunch of code that has so much legacy code" #### ⏱️ [64:20](https://youtu.be/cCTO14S7Cfw?t=3860) — [H1] WordPress Ecosystem Cost Escalation - Key idea: Rising plugin and hosting costs make "free" WordPress increasingly expensive - Evidence: "WordPress itself is free, but once you want to go beyond a simple website, costs start to come in" #### ⏱️ [70:15](https://youtu.be/cCTO14S7Cfw?t=4215) — [H3] Web Studio as WordPress Alternative - Key idea: Open-source alternatives offering visual building without vendor lock-in - Evidence: "Web Studio mainly because it's open source so you're not tied in like with framer, web flow" ## 📚 References - [Bolt AI Website Builder](https://bolt.new/) - [Lovable AI Platform](https://lovable.ai/) - [Web Studio Open Source Builder](https://webstudio.is/) - [WordPress Developer Documentation](https://developer.wordpress.org/) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - AI tools are advancing rapidly to create sophisticated websites with simple prompts, challenging traditional web development roles - Web professionals need to evolve from technical builders into strategic business partners who help companies grow - WordPress faces significant challenges from legacy architecture, increasing complexity, and rising ecosystem costs that may reduce its market dominance ## 📰 Newsletter **The Future of Web Design: Adapting to an AI-Driven Landscape** The web design industry is experiencing unprecedented disruption as AI tools mature rapidly. Recent predictions suggest traditional website building may become obsolete within years, not decades. **Key Developments:** - AI platforms like Bolt and Lovable now generate complex, database-driven sites from simple descriptions - WordPress facing pressure from legacy code issues and rising ecosystem costs - Content creators reporting significant engagement drops across the industry **Strategic Response:** Web professionals should consider transitioning from technical implementers to strategic growth partners. This means focusing on business outcomes, automation integration, and client success metrics rather than just website delivery. **Next Steps:** Experiment with AI building tools, develop prompt engineering skills, and explore how to add strategic value beyond traditional web development services. Resources: [Learn WordPress](https://learn.wordpress.org/), [Developer Docs](https://developer.wordpress.org/), [WP-CLI](https://wp-cli.org/) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Create content addressing AI impact on web development careers - Education: Develop workshops on transitioning from builder to growth partner roles - Developer experience: Document best practices for AI-assisted development workflows - Community management: Facilitate discussions on industry evolution and adaptation strategies #### WordPress - Core: Evaluate full-site editing complexity and user experience issues - Core Performance: Address legacy code technical debt impacting competitiveness - Community: Support discussions on WordPress's future in AI-driven landscape - Documentation: Create guides for WordPress professionals exploring alternative platforms - Accessibility: Ensure WordPress remains competitive with simpler visual builders #### Community - Maintainers: Address concerns about platform sustainability amid AI disruption - Contributors: Explore opportunities to simplify WordPress development experience - Ecosystem: Evaluate pricing strategies as "free" WordPress becomes increasingly expensive ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Web design roles will shift from technical implementation to strategic business consulting within 2-3 years - WordPress market share will decline significantly as AI tools and modern platforms gain adoption - Content consumption patterns will change as fewer people enter traditional web design careers - Economic factors beyond AI are contributing to declining engagement in web design education content ### 📊 Methodology - Study web design job posting trends over next 12 months to validate role evolution - Track WordPress market share data quarterly against AI website builder adoption - Survey web design content creators on viewership and engagement metrics - Analyze client procurement patterns for websites versus AI-generated solutions ### ❓ Questions - Will WordPress leadership address full-site editing complexity and legacy code issues proactively? - How quickly can web professionals realistically transition to growth partner roles? - What specific business skills should technical web professionals prioritize learning? ### 🔮 Future Research - Comparative analysis of AI website builders versus traditional CMS capabilities - Economic impact study of AI disruption on web design service providers - User experience research on enterprise adoption of AI building tools ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Web professionals must rapidly upskill in business strategy and AI tool proficiency - Policy: Industry associations need frameworks for career transition support - Education: Web design curricula require fundamental restructuring toward business strategy - Funding: Investment patterns shifting from traditional web agencies to AI-enhanced service providers ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 12th Grade #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Thumbnail graphics showing website tombstone metaphor - Improve: Diagrams comparing traditional vs AI-driven development workflows #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: 75-minute conversational format with two industry experts - Improve: Chapter markers and audio summary of key points #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Extensive discussion format with real-world examples and analogies - Improve: Glossary of technical terms and platform comparisons #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: References to hands-on experimentation with AI tools - Improve: Step-by-step guides for testing AI website builders #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Market analysis and predictions with supporting evidence - Improve: Decision frameworks for platform selection and career pivoting #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Live chat interaction and community discussion format - Improve: Structured peer networking opportunities for career transition #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Reflection prompts about personal career adaptation needs - Improve: Self-assessment tools for skill gaps and transition planning #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Industry ecosystem analysis and evolution patterns - Improve: Historical parallels with previous technological disruptions ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Video format with spoken content throughout - Improve: Structured transcript with heading hierarchy and timestamps #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard YouTube player controls - Improve: Chapter navigation and skip-ahead functionality #### Contrast and readability - Present: High contrast thumbnail design - Improve: Closed captions with sufficient color contrast #### Media and captions - Present: Auto-generated captions available - Improve: Professional captions with technical term accuracy #### Standards reference - WCAG 2.2 AA compliance needed for professional transcript formatting ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Western-centric perspective on technology adoption - Improve: Global examples of varying AI and internet access patterns #### Inclusive language - Present: Technical jargon explained in context - Improve: Plain language summaries of complex predictions #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Conversational format may aid auditory processing - Improve: Visual content structure and topic segmentation #### Representation - Present: Two male industry professionals discussing career impacts - Improve: Diverse perspectives on career transition challenges #### Psychological safety - Present: Acknowledges uncertainty and fear around industry changes - Improve: Specific support resources for career transition anxiety ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Inductive strength: Uses specific examples (Bolt, Lovable) to support broader AI disruption claims - Causal reasoning: Links WordPress complexity increases to market share decline potential - Analogical strength: Compares current disruption to historical technology transitions #### Fallacies - Appeal to fear: "Websites dying by 2027" framing, creates urgency but oversimplifies timeline - Hasty generalization: Personal content engagement drops, assumes industry-wide pattern #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Conversational and exploratory with acknowledgment of uncertainty and bias ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No denial patterns present - openly acknowledges industry disruption - Attack: No attacks on accusers - supportive discussion of adaptation needs - Reverse victim/offender: Not applicable to this technology discussion - Emotional cues: Balanced concern about change with optimism about opportunities ## 🎯 Conclusion The web design industry faces significant disruption from AI tools, but timeline predictions may be overly aggressive. Success requires transitioning from technical implementation roles to strategic business partnerships. WordPress's future depends on addressing complexity and legacy issues while professionals must embrace continuous learning and adaptation to remain relevant in an evolving landscape. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad Purpose: Stage CEE units that become Literature notes. Split level: H3 ### [H1] AI tools create complex websites from simple prompts > [!quote] [2027 Is The Year Websites Die](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCTO14S7Cfw) by [[Jeffrey]] via [[YouTube]]. Published 2025-01-11. Accessed 2025-01-11. > "Guy never built a website in his life, gone to Bolt or Lovable, got a site with booking, shows, database driven." Context shows AI democratizing complex web development beyond traditional skill requirements. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/cCTO14S7Cfw?t=3150#H1) #xref #articleseed ID:rw_ai_web_building ### [H2] Web designers must evolve beyond technical building > [!quote] [2027 Is The Year Websites Die](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCTO14S7Cfw) > "Building a website is a skill... as a growth partner, you start looking at strategy behind the company." Fundamental shift from implementation to strategic business consulting role required. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/cCTO14S7Cfw?t=1515#H2) #xref ID:rw_designer_evolution ### [H3] WordPress faces legacy architecture challenges > [!quote] [2027 Is The Year Websites Die](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCTO14S7Cfw) > "WordPress code... it's a bastardized bunch of code that has so much legacy code in there." Technical debt from 20-year evolution creates competitive --- ## Full Transcript [00:01] Well, good morning. Oh, we've got a pile [00:03] of comments just come in. Good morning [00:04] everybody. Uh, welcome to the live [00:06] stream today with myself and Jeffrey [00:07] from Lightbox. As the kind of topic [00:10] suggests with the sort of thumbnail and [00:12] things else we've been talking about [00:13] sort of AI, the future of WordPress and [00:16] some of the things that are being [00:18] predicted for where web design in [00:20] general and websites is actually going. [00:22] Right, [00:24] let me just get rid of that. Sorry about [00:27] that. You had a sort of a strange loop [00:28] there. which had YouTube in the [00:29] background. They decided they want to [00:30] pop up as well. So, if everybody could [00:33] let me know if you can hear and see and [00:35] everything sounds okay and looks okay, [00:36] that would be fantastic. But, um [00:38] Jeffrey, good to see you this evening [00:40] for you, I think, isn't it? You're seven [00:42] hours ahead of me. So, how are you? [00:44] >> Yeah, doing well. Doing well. Good to [00:46] see you, too. Good to connect. Uh thank [00:48] you for having me on. Definitely looking [00:50] forward to this conversation. [00:53] >> Hey, it's it's not it's going to be the [00:54] first of many. I hope I think uh where [00:56] we've been talking offline we've got a [00:58] lot of things I think in common with how [01:00] we see things um and how we sort of see [01:03] the future and stuff like that. So [01:04] today's conversation for anybody that [01:06] may just be jumping on kind of like out [01:07] of the blue because you've seen the live [01:08] stream pop up we want to talk about AI [01:11] its impact the future of web design the [01:14] future of websites in general and some [01:16] of the kind of things that are being [01:18] sort of predicted with regards to that. [01:20] myself and Jeffrey had a couple of [01:22] conversations sort of like offline as it [01:24] were and um I think we've got some [01:27] interesting sort of points to sort of [01:28] talk about today. But I think let's [01:30] start off with the very broad picture [01:32] and I'm sure we'll start to sort of hone [01:34] things down a little bit. But as always, [01:35] if you got any comments or questions, [01:37] please drop those in the comments [01:38] section. If it's a question, if you can [01:40] start it with #Q so I know it's a [01:43] question, it'll make it a lot easier [01:44] then for us to take a look at answer as [01:46] many questions as we can. But I think [01:48] the conversation and the topic we talked [01:50] about the other day which is probably [01:52] broader than maybe some people are [01:53] thinking is predictions for there may [01:55] not actually be websites in the way that [01:57] we know it within the next let's say two [02:00] years. I mean you read that article and [02:02] and you sort of probably know a little [02:03] bit more about it. So I'm going to hand [02:05] it over to you to sort of so you can [02:06] kind of give the lowdown and let's have [02:08] a sort of chat about what we think with [02:10] regards to that side of things. So over [02:13] to you sir. [02:13] >> Yeah. Yeah. I got a lot of thought and [02:17] stuff, but uh by the way, love the [02:20] tombstone on the thumbnail. I thought [02:21] that was pretty cool. Like it right [02:23] there. And this wasn't my [02:26] >> Thank you, AI. See, didn't even have to [02:29] hire a graphic designer. And this is, I [02:31] guess, [02:31] >> the whole point of everything. Uh now, [02:34] this isn't from me. This is just what I [02:36] heard. A friend of mine, uh we had a big [02:39] conversation. He's like really big into [02:40] AI. He's building out his company sites [02:43] and replet where he used to actually [02:45] hire us to build their websites and you [02:48] know he's really deep into the AI rabbit [02:52] hole and we had a conversation and when [02:55] I told him we're still building websites [02:57] with WordPress he looked at me surprised [02:58] he's like WordPress is still around like [03:00] that was his like that was genuinely how [03:02] he felt and then in that conversation he [03:05] mentioned that he was talking with [03:08] somebody running an AI agency gency out [03:11] this way and that they told him in a [03:14] year's time websites will no longer be [03:17] needed or maybe even existing and yeah [03:20] that wasn't me but I thought like that [03:22] was uh [03:24] I guess where the tombstone came from [03:26] and where I guess a big overview of a [03:28] lot of this but uh what are your [03:29] thoughts on that cuz my jaw hit the [03:32] floor and I was ready to like kick over [03:34] chairs like what are you talking about [03:36] you know [laughter] [03:38] >> look since we talked about this. I've [03:40] sort of thought about it a few times and [03:42] I think the thing that's kind of always [03:45] overlooked when you see these [03:46] predictions of of the future of AI and [03:49] other things is human nature. You know, [03:52] we're in a tech industry. We're in in [03:54] kind of this this web design bubble, [03:56] this AI bubble. You know, maybe we're [03:59] seeing things a little different to your [04:00] typical person. So, I don't see it [04:04] disappearing in that way that quickly. [04:06] Yes, in the future absolutely because [04:07] technologies, the way we interact with [04:09] things are going to change. That's just [04:11] nature of technology. But we always seem [04:14] to overlook human nature and people are [04:17] not going to suddenly go, "Oh, the [04:20] internet. I'm not going to bother with [04:21] websites anymore. I'm going to use a [04:22] completely different way of of [04:23] searching." like AI for example, you [04:26] know, people like us that are used to [04:28] the technology will pick up our phones [04:30] and we'll go on to chat GPT or claude [04:33] and things like that and we'll we'll ask [04:34] it to do research for us. We'll ask it [04:36] for questions. You know, we start to get [04:38] ads or we can buy things via things like [04:40] chat GPT. But I still think that's going [04:43] to take more than the next two years [04:46] before before people adopt that side of [04:48] things. Think of your parents. Think of [04:50] your grandparents. Think of people you [04:51] know that are maybe a little bit older, [04:53] maybe not so techsavvy or in countries [04:56] that don't have access to the same [04:57] technologies that we do in the western [04:59] sort of world where we're used to it [05:00] having, you know, high speeded sort of [05:03] internet, having uh high-spec phones, [05:06] computers, laptops, all those kinds of [05:07] things. I honestly think at some point [05:11] it will change, but I don't think it's [05:12] going to be this drastic kind of like [05:15] websites will disappear in two years [05:16] time. I just don't see that happening. I [05:18] just don't think it it can happen that [05:21] quickly. At some point, yes, probably. [05:24] But I mean, what do you think? I mean, [05:25] you've obviously given it some thought [05:27] as well. What are your thoughts on how [05:29] you see things changing? [05:31] >> Yeah. Well, you know, at first when I [05:34] hear predictions like that or when I see [05:37] these big changes or hear people talking [05:39] about them, my first instinct is to [05:42] fight against them. And I think that's a [05:43] human nature side of things. And that's [05:45] what I'm seeing a lot of. And it's [05:48] something though too, like for web [05:49] design specifically, I have been looking [05:52] at these changes now since early last [05:55] year because I've been seeing the [05:57] writing on the wall that it's definitely [05:59] evolving. Web designers are no longer [06:02] going to get away doing the same thing [06:04] that they were doing 3, four years ago, [06:06] 3, four years in the future. Like, we [06:08] have to evolve. And it's the reason why [06:11] I'm deep in is because I teach web [06:13] design. And I want to be able to teach [06:15] and be in it with everyone because we're [06:18] all in this state of uncertainty right [06:20] now cuz we don't know what it's going to [06:21] be like three or four years from now. [06:23] But I also feel like just the human [06:26] nature of things. I see it across even [06:28] different industries. Anytime you [06:30] mention like this change like for an [06:32] example there was a brilliant video that [06:34] just came out. Uh it was a designer. She [06:37] is like the lead designer I believe of [06:40] Claude code or of cursor. one of those, [06:42] I think it was Claude, but she also led [06:44] the design for Fig Jam. She led the [06:47] design for Dropbox, like really high [06:51] credentials and achievements. And she [06:53] was talking about the web design process [06:56] as we knew it, as we know it is no [06:59] longer the norm. And I went to the [07:01] comments and just the temperature of it [07:03] is that first human reaction, which is [07:06] we still need it. We still need it. We [07:08] still need it. We can't change. you know [07:10] that resist to change and uh I think [07:13] that the writing is on the wall you know [07:15] that things are changing and we're [07:16] seeing it across the board and you know [07:20] you and I even talk like you know I was [07:22] seeing it as far as like content as far [07:25] as like the numbers and as far as a lot [07:28] of other things and now when I'm looking [07:30] in under other industries as well it's [07:32] the same graphic design motion design [07:34] even marketing and other areas I think [07:37] that this is generally across Ross the [07:39] board right now we're seeing this change [07:42] and so yeah I know I'm I'm kind of like [07:45] going on but you know to sum it up when [07:48] I heard that you know or something [07:49] outrageous like websites won't be around [07:51] for a year [07:53] I feel the human nature to react against [07:56] it but then I got to step back and kind [07:57] of do a thought experiment like what [07:59] would that look like and then start to [08:02] play that out and yeah that's where I'm [08:04] at with it. Yeah, you know, we've got to [08:07] kind of consider how people are [08:08] traditionally used to interacting with [08:10] that kind of technology, you know, [08:11] buying online, just finding information [08:14] and stuff. And that will change. There's [08:16] no doubt about it. But I think you can [08:18] definitely see like for example, look at [08:21] Google as a search engine. Forget about [08:23] the other things they do, but as a [08:24] search engine where they AI is at the [08:26] top. Now, I don't know if you were the [08:27] same as me, but you kind of get you look [08:30] at that and you ignore it like you [08:31] ignore the ads underneath it. you now [08:33] start to look lower down to find the [08:34] real information as opposed to the AI [08:37] information which by its very nature is [08:40] prone to being incorrect. You know, I [08:43] was I did a a bit of sort of deep [08:45] research yesterday, the day before with [08:47] regards to pods and ACF Pro and ACF, and [08:52] one of the first things it came back [08:53] with was that advanced custom fields [08:55] doesn't create custom post types and [08:57] doesn't create custom taxonomies, which [09:00] we know it does and has done for the [09:01] last 18 months. So, if you take that [09:03] information on board and you were doing [09:05] this without checking that, it's wrong. [09:08] Completely and utly blatantly wrong. And [09:11] that's the deep research which is going [09:12] and and sort of researching in a much [09:14] more focused way. So we we we have to [09:18] kind of get to the point where I think [09:20] AI is more trustworthy in regards to the [09:24] information it actually pulls up because [09:26] when it's scraping the internet, I mean, [09:28] if you consider things like Reddit, you [09:30] consider things like um Wikipedia and so [09:34] on, anything that allows humans to edit [09:38] the content and add the content and [09:39] things on there is always going to be [09:41] prone to misinformation. And if AI is [09:44] scraping that, then it's also prone to [09:46] coming back with the wrong information. [09:48] So unless we see a change in that [09:51] regards, I think, and I'm sure we will, [09:54] but when it's having information that's [09:56] as broad as the internet, where we can [09:59] have any kind of thing put on the [10:00] internet, there's always the scope for [10:03] it to be very wrong. And we've already [10:06] seen that things like Grock where has [10:08] come back with like there had [10:09] conversations there been things on there [10:10] which has been very very dubious with [10:12] the replies and responses and things has [10:14] come back with. I think all these things [10:17] help put people off wanting to trust AI [10:20] and [10:22] I think that's the same when it comes to [10:24] a lot of other things you do like with [10:25] the code side of things. You know the [10:27] vibe coding and using it to generate [10:30] code. Is it a bad thing? Not if you know [10:33] what you're looking for. In the same way [10:35] that like if you ask one of the AI tools [10:37] to design a website for you, as a [10:39] designer, you look at it a much more [10:41] critically and you look at the [10:42] shortcomings of it and what it can and [10:44] can't do. And I think that's the same [10:46] thing across the board with AI. And [10:49] because it's being sort of pushed so [10:52] heavily and it's it's everywhere and [10:54] it's being touted as the next big thing, [10:58] people are naturally going to jump on [11:00] board and try to run with it. And I've [11:03] said this in previous sort of [11:04] conversations and live streams and [11:05] stuff. I think we're in the wild west [11:07] right now of AI. I think we are there's [11:10] no legislation there to to govern and [11:12] control it. There's no laws there. We'll [11:15] see that change. We've seen copyright [11:17] cases and stuff come up and I think [11:18] we're going to see a lot more things [11:19] like that. [11:21] So at the moment I think AI is kind of [11:24] everywhere and in everything and in a [11:26] lot of cases it doesn't necessarily make [11:28] sense. [11:29] But I think that's going to change. I [11:31] think that will smooth out and we'll [11:33] start to see a lot of this stuff will [11:35] just fall by the wayside because it's [11:36] it's crap. It just isn't worth, you [11:39] know, your time and your investment into [11:41] it. So, [11:44] I'm kind of I'm interested to see where [11:46] it goes, but I also I'm quite skeptical [11:49] with what it's going to be like in the [11:52] next 24 months. So, that's my kind of [11:54] take on it right now. [11:56] >> Um, what about you? I'm excited to see [12:00] where things go. I mean, to me, I just [12:02] love chaos by nature. It's like, give me [12:05] something that's easy and comfortable [12:08] and, you know, I fall apart, but you go [12:10] ahead and disrupt the world, I thrive. [12:13] But that's also because, you know, I I [12:16] think a big part of like my past and, [12:18] you know, just my whole journey and [12:20] stuff made me this way. But also know [12:23] that there's opportunity in chaos when [12:25] everything does get flipped up around [12:28] and you know there's also a lot of you [12:31] know downsides with chaos. You know most [12:34] do fail but that's the way it is with [12:36] businesses as well. When businesses [12:38] start and a web designer who is either [12:40] freelancing or starting an agency is not [12:44] an exclusion to the rule of running a [12:46] business. you know 80% of them fail [12:49] within the first two years and after [12:50] that another like something like 80% of [12:54] the last 20% fail like in the next year [12:56] or two you know just a crazy statistic [12:59] and I remember seeing it when we first [13:02] started the building businesses with [13:03] Elementor [13:05] Facebook group we had a signup and for [13:08] years we collected signups but we never [13:10] did anything we never really launched a [13:12] newsletter and then like three years [13:14] later launched a newsletter and saw how [13:17] many uh bounce emails we got with agency [13:20] names on it and those websites no longer [13:23] exist and for me that was just a big [13:25] like like just a big shock like the [13:28] reality wow like a lot don't make it [13:31] >> but for those who are still here and [13:34] still want to make it or even start I [13:36] think we have to start looking how to [13:38] evolve and do things differently so we [13:40] can secure a future for ourselves things [13:44] like vibe coding things like the tools [13:46] that we We got to learn how to utilize [13:48] these things. There's no if we resist [13:50] it, we're we're just going to be another [13:52] Blockbuster who says, "No, nobody wants [13:54] to stream videos or have them delivered [13:56] to you. People want to come to our shop. [13:59] They want, you know, and we all know the [14:01] story of what happens when we resist [14:03] that." [14:04] You know, like we have to do more when [14:07] it comes to solving client problems and [14:09] playing a bigger role than just building [14:12] a website, just designing it. We have to [14:14] get more involved with the project [14:15] management, more involved even with [14:17] engineering at times and more involved [14:20] helping out with other solutions. And [14:23] the way to do it is we got to start to [14:26] utilize AI tools within our workflow. [14:29] >> Absolutely. I mean, I know again we've [14:31] been talking and this this going to kind [14:32] of come up quite a lot of things through [14:34] this live stream is that you and I have [14:35] talked quite a lot about various [14:36] different things. We had a two-hour [14:37] conversation the other day that was [14:39] going to be like 10 minutes and two [14:40] hours later we're still talking. Um, [14:42] [laughter] [14:44] but I I I 100% agree with you and I know [14:46] that you were looking at putting content [14:48] together in the same kind of vein I've [14:50] been putting content together on how you [14:52] move beyond the web design side of [14:54] things and how you make yourself a [14:55] growth partner with businesses because [14:58] building a website is a skill that we've [15:00] learned over the years, but as we see AI [15:03] is going to take a big chunk of that [15:06] away. [15:07] There's going to still be, I think, an [15:08] involvement from people that have better [15:11] design skills, but AI is going to take [15:13] that. No, no two ways about it. And as [15:15] long as you can understand how to prompt [15:17] the AI to get what you want, that side [15:20] of things is going to be technically [15:21] taken care of. So, we're going to kind [15:23] of take that out the equation. So, I [15:25] think as a as a growth partner, this is [15:28] where you start looking at the strategy [15:30] behind the company and how you can help [15:33] them realize their goals. you know [15:35] whether that's generating more leads, [15:36] generating more income, whatever it is. [15:39] And you know that takes on many [15:41] different forms. We've talked about [15:43] automation, you talk about, you know, [15:46] building a website is just the technical [15:48] side of things. You know, building [15:50] building a brick wall could technically [15:52] be the same skills as building a 50story [15:55] tower block. But the reality is there's [15:58] a lot more involved going from one to [16:00] the other. And I think the same thing [16:01] goes here is that the technical side of [16:03] things of building a website is one [16:05] thing, but the understanding how to [16:07] build an effective website, how to [16:08] optimize it for the client, whether you [16:11] do it or AI does it, but you might be [16:13] the one that's prompting it to do all [16:15] that. That's where your skills and I [16:17] think that's where your experience over [16:19] the last 10, 15, 20 years of actually [16:21] running a business, working with [16:23] clients, building websites, [16:24] understanding the the sort of customer [16:27] journey, embracing those new [16:29] technologies. It will change, you know, [16:33] but I think that's where most web [16:35] designers need to be in the next, let's [16:37] just say, five years because the [16:39] technical building of website, as you've [16:41] seen yourself, and I know we talked to [16:42] other people about it, you can get it to [16:45] create quite complex database driven [16:48] sites and when you're getting sort of [16:50] sites like Bolt and Lovable and things [16:52] like that where they no longer just [16:54] being that kind of code interface and [16:56] they're using external databases and [16:58] things, once that all becomes internal, [17:00] ized where security can become a lot [17:04] more rigid and understanding its [17:07] internal structure means that they can [17:09] create much better, much more optimized [17:11] websites with cleaner code because [17:12] they're not going to five or six [17:15] different external services that are out [17:17] of their control. the code side of [17:19] things and the scope for what you can [17:22] build is going to grow exponentially [17:25] which again is going to take away from [17:26] those more sort of medium to higher [17:28] level web designers, web coders, [17:30] developers, whatever. I think that's [17:33] going to take that's going to take their [17:35] jobs. So that's again I think where [17:38] becoming a growth partner, becoming a [17:39] part of the business to help the [17:41] businesses, your clients grow and become [17:43] successful and probably embrace AI in [17:46] multiple different ways. That's going to [17:48] come down to someone like yourself or an [17:50] agency that you build that relationship [17:52] up with them and bringing them up [17:55] through the next couple of years, [17:57] embracing AI into their businesses and [17:59] showing them how they can utilize it and [18:01] using someone like yourself to to set up [18:03] and talk to all the systems that they're [18:05] currently using. I think that's where we [18:07] are going to be as web designers. You [18:10] know, we'll probably change that [18:11] terminology. I definitely think that's [18:13] where the in immediate future is going [18:16] to go. [18:18] Yeah. And that's where we have [18:20] opportunity for those of us who have [18:22] been doing this already for a while. We [18:25] have that experience and understand [18:27] client problems and understand a bit [18:29] more. And anybody who let's say a [18:31] developer developer has a specific [18:33] skill. Now tools could go ahead and [18:35] write the code and do the development. [18:37] But still that developer with that skill [18:40] if they had the right mindset and frame [18:43] it right and really look and and like [18:45] like realize hey you know things are [18:47] changing I got to change and adapt now [18:49] too they could take that and do more for [18:51] an example let's say you got a client [18:53] and they need help putting their data [18:56] together to understand the metrics not [18:58] like taking people's data anything like [19:00] that but like gathering the data how is [19:03] this working in their company how is [19:05] this how much time is spent on this all [19:08] those different little metrics that you [19:09] know people who could spread over that [19:11] could look at numbers and make really [19:13] big sense of where to optimize a [19:15] business you know a developer who has [19:18] been working on WordPress websites [19:20] understands PHP understands some code [19:22] they could go in now and work with [19:24] Python like I don't know Python but I [19:26] understand how it works and I understand [19:29] the directions to go in which puts me [19:32] and others also in a situation who has [19:34] worked in web development for some time [19:36] to utilize these tools to do things they [19:38] never would have thought of doing would [19:40] have been scared to hire someone and [19:42] manage them to do it. So it's those kind [19:45] of things we got to look at and you know [19:48] like [19:50] if we look at history and it's a reason [19:52] why I like reading so much business [19:54] books because a lot of them pack stories [19:57] about changes in the past and I love [19:59] when I hear about what went on in the [20:01] past like the industrial revolution and [20:03] how you know changes and you know like [20:06] the assembly line or things like that [20:08] how it just takes over like jobs that [20:10] people had they felt secure in all of a [20:13] sudden were gone. And you could either [20:16] do one of two things in those [20:17] situations. Well, actually back then you [20:20] couldn't. So, we're really lucky right [20:22] now cuz back then you really couldn't. [20:24] Like they just came in and all of a [20:25] sudden your profession is gone. Like we [20:27] don't need your profession anymore. [20:29] You're pretty much stuck. We are so [20:32] fortunate today that we are not in that [20:34] position. We could just like let's take [20:36] what we have and let's go where we could [20:39] apply what we did and start to learn [20:41] something. But we got to start learning [20:42] right now. And you know, that's one [20:44] thing I'm really hoping conversations [20:46] like this could do. It's like first off, [20:49] uh we we said this in the beginning, [20:51] like I don't know what's going to [20:52] happen. My opinions right now, they're [20:55] like a roller coaster because I'm just [20:57] learning as well. I'm evolving and I'm [20:59] just trying to be open because I know [21:02] even myself where I'm at, I have to be [21:04] flexible and ready to pivot pivot [21:07] multiple times because I don't know [21:09] where things are going to go. And I'm [21:11] hoping that this conversation could [21:13] steer [21:14] and help some designers, some [21:17] developers, those of us in the WordPress [21:19] space to, you know, I guess [21:24] change the mindset around first being, [21:26] you know, fear-based that this isn't [21:28] going to happen, anti- ai, [21:31] uh, and also just a mindset of, you [21:34] know, like I'm not going to learn this. [21:36] I think for too long a lot of old-timers [21:39] have been stuck doing the same thing and [21:42] it's really hard to tell them they got [21:44] to change. Like do you know somebody [21:46] who's old and stubborn and stuck in [21:48] their ways? Like this has to be done [21:50] this way and if it ain't done this way, [21:52] you know, you're a scrub, you know, that [21:55] type of you know and uh [21:58] >> we that's not going to help, you know, [22:00] get an individual to the next step. It's [22:03] it's not you know we we people could say [22:06] you becoming an architect of your own [22:08] demise by embracing it and so on but [22:11] then I think you can go one of two ways [22:13] there. You could either embrace it with [22:15] an open mind and think right how can I [22:18] utilize this and improve my chances of [22:21] continuing in a career or do I just [22:24] completely buck against it and hope it [22:25] goes away which it's not going to. But [22:28] before we move on because another [22:29] question I want to ask provide I don't [22:31] remember where it is. Um Toby come up [22:33] with a a good question. [22:35] So I'm going to put this over to you and [22:37] then I'll say where I am. So question [22:40] for for us. Does it affect your zeal to [22:42] make new videos? Again this is something [22:44] we talked about the other day. How do [22:46] you feel like with everything the sort [22:48] of state of flux that we're in at the [22:49] moment? How do you feel about creating [22:52] new content? Is it kind of you feel like [22:54] is it really worth it? Are people going [22:56] to watch this? Or are you kind of got a [22:58] a sort of like a real passion for [23:00] working through understanding and [23:03] explaining that to people that maybe are [23:05] that sort of that more stubborn [23:07] individual that doesn't want to learn it [23:08] or doesn't have the time to invest in in [23:11] learning it in a more manual kind of [23:13] way? [23:14] >> Man, that's a good question. Really good [23:16] question, Toby. Uh you want me to [23:19] answer? [23:19] >> Yeah, go for it, man. [23:21] >> Yeah. Uh, I mean, yeah, it's had an [23:24] effect on me, you know, like [23:27] I thought I did something wrong. My [23:29] numbers, like numbers just dropped, you [23:32] know, and I and I'm I'm like, what [23:34] happened? You know, did I take too much [23:36] time off during the holidays? Did this [23:38] thing change it? Did me creating content [23:41] about this change it? And uh, you know, [23:44] I'm like, okay, it's all good. Let's [23:45] just come back and grind away and have [23:47] fun with it. And then it is hard when [23:51] you know I'll spend two to three days on [23:53] a video, put a lot of work into it. Like [23:55] it's not something to just record in 30 [23:57] minutes and push live. Like there's a [24:00] lot of work that goes into it and then [24:02] it's like crickets. And then I'm like [24:05] like is there something wrong with me? [24:07] Is it worth it? And you know, those [24:09] moments come in and I'm sure like like [24:11] I'm just like everybody else feeling [24:13] this thing, you know, and uh [24:16] just got to step back. And what I did [24:18] personally is I I stepped back out of [24:21] it. I I talked to some good people like [24:23] you. You know, I I'm fortunate to have [24:26] some good friends inside of this space [24:28] and uh I remembered my mission, why I'm [24:32] doing this, you know, and the mission is [24:35] to help web designers build better lives [24:37] for themselves because web design has [24:39] given me a life I never could have [24:41] dreamt of and I just want to see other [24:44] people get it. And so remembering the [24:47] mission, forgetting about the numbers [24:49] and instead focusing on the mission [24:51] helps me out. But it also is getting me [24:54] to look at things. I I'm just going to [24:56] I'm just going to piggyback on this and [24:59] just kind of add to it. Uh because [25:03] I focus so much on the change that's [25:05] coming to web designers and in the web [25:08] design industry. And I'm focusing so [25:10] much because I want to help other web [25:12] designers navigate through this change [25:15] that I failed to see the change in what [25:18] I'm doing as well. And it was a hard [25:22] shock and I felt the same thing that [25:25] everybody felt. You know, I will watch a [25:27] video somebody saying like it's over [25:30] for, you know, for what I'm doing and [25:32] like wait, no, it can't be. You know, [25:34] but then I just had I have to do the [25:36] same. And that was my like aha moment [25:38] like holy this is everybody in our [25:43] you know in in all the different areas [25:45] not just web design development [25:47] WordPress it's all of us. [25:49] >> It is and to sort of go back to what [25:51] you're saying there but excuse me [25:53] [clears throat] the numbers and stuff I [25:54] I mean we've got Toby in here you've got [25:56] Iran in here as well. I mean you guys [25:59] let us know in the in the comments [26:00] section below. How have you seen your [26:01] numbers over the last let's just say 12 [26:04] months? you know your your YouTube [26:06] numbers, views, those kinds of things. [26:08] How have you seen that improve, [26:10] flatline, drop, you know, let us know [26:13] because I agree with you, it it can be [26:15] very difficult, but I think it depends [26:18] what you're in it for. I mean, from my [26:20] point of view, I was a teacher for 10 [26:23] years, you know, I taught uh it to [26:26] adults uh before I went off and [26:28] actually, you know, had my own agency [26:30] kind of thing. And I've done freelancing [26:32] and stuff like that. So I spent like 15 [26:34] years doing that side of things. So I've [26:35] done both sides of it. But I've always [26:38] loved teaching and I've taught music [26:41] production. I've taught digital [26:43] photography. I teach, you know, the web [26:45] design side of things. WordPress and web [26:47] design is the one that's kind of stuck [26:49] with me. But I did the other ones for a [26:50] couple of years as well because I enjoy [26:53] it, you know, and maybe I should I could [26:56] have been more intentional about how [26:58] I've created content because I learn [27:01] something. I enjoy something and I want [27:04] to tell other people how to do it. You [27:05] know, if I've stumbled on things and if [27:07] I've kind of like, oh, this this didn't [27:09] work the way I want to and I've [27:10] struggled through it and I've had to do [27:11] research to find the the way to get it [27:13] to work. And I want other people to not [27:15] have that struggle. They can easily just [27:18] go on and they can see watch my video, [27:20] spend 20 minutes on that video, and [27:22] they've saved themselves two days worth [27:23] of of stress in how to get something to [27:25] work. And I don't see that changing. [27:28] Will the topics change? Yeah. It's the [27:30] whole reason why I cover things like uh [27:33] I do cover AI. I cover you know sort of [27:35] automation AI automation and stuff like [27:38] that because I think this is an area [27:39] that more freelancers more agencies and [27:42] things need to concentrate on because I [27:44] think interim period that's where [27:47] our jobs are going to go. I say our jobs [27:49] I don't really do this as a living [27:50] anymore. Thankfully I've kind of like [27:52] that side of my career is I've wound [27:54] that down. [27:56] But if I wasn't, if I was still working [27:58] like that, that's what I would be [28:00] focusing right now. I wouldn't be [28:01] focusing on trying to find customers and [28:03] clients to to build websites for them. [28:05] I'd be looking at the ones who already [28:07] have and how can I connect them up to [28:08] other services to help their businesses [28:11] grow, become streamlined, sell more, [28:13] whatever it is that their business [28:14] actually is in. That's where I would be [28:16] focusing. And [28:19] >> yeah, I mean the numbers, yeah, they are [28:22] frustrating when you kind of see the [28:23] numbers not as high as you used to, you [28:25] know, but again AI is going to change [28:29] it, but you can people complain about [28:31] the algorithm on YouTube, but the [28:32] reality of it is less people are [28:34] spending time looking to get into the [28:36] web design career, which means that less [28:38] people are going to be searching for [28:39] lower level content, which means that [28:41] the market there is going to be less. [28:43] You can see that when you release [28:45] different content. you content on AI, [28:47] for example. I did one on Nano Banana [28:49] when it was kind of just come out of [28:50] beta or beta and I mean that video in [28:54] the space of about a week or two got [28:57] 30,000 views. You try getting that with [28:59] a WordPress video, you just don't get [29:01] it. You might get over a period of time, [29:02] but unless you're covering something [29:04] very very specific that's very new and a [29:06] lot of people are interested in, you [29:07] don't get those numbers on there. You [29:08] simply don't. So, it can be frustrating [29:12] when you kind of get sucked into the [29:14] YouTube numbers game. And it's very easy [29:16] to get sucked into that. I'm sure [29:18] everybody that creates content you [29:20] either has done, will do, or are already [29:24] in that that phase right now. But you [29:27] will go beyond that. You have to go [29:29] beyond that because otherwise you'll [29:31] stay awake at night. you'll wake up [29:33] stressing and all those things suck and [29:36] they'll suck the life and the creativity [29:38] out of you before you even realize it. [29:40] So if you are in that position right [29:42] now, move past it. Look at other ways of [29:45] generating revenue so you don't focus on [29:48] that becoming your sole kind of income [29:51] because once you do that, it becomes [29:53] very stressful and it's going to make [29:55] much much more difficult these days as [29:57] well. But hopefully Toby, that's [30:00] answered your question. But the next [30:02] thing I want to say and I put this over [30:03] to you first and I'll come back to what [30:05] what I think. So we're talking about you [30:07] know web designers and web developers [30:09] and things like that or web design in [30:10] general changing or going away. Where do [30:13] you see WordPress over the next couple [30:16] of years? Do you think in in let's say [30:18] 27 28 that WordPress is going to be [30:21] still powering 40 odd% of the internet? [30:24] >> No, not 40%. You know, I think it'll [30:27] still be powering a high majority, but I [30:30] don't know about 40%. [30:32] Uh, [30:34] I think the numbers are declining right [30:36] now for WordPress in general. Uh, market [30:39] shares are just going to other places. [30:41] Wix Studio, [30:43] >> Framer, Web Flow, you know, uh, for [30:46] e-commerce still Shopify is the stronger [30:49] uh, stronger solution. But God, two [30:52] years ago, two years from now, I don't [30:54] know. It all depends. I mean, will Matt [30:58] do another Matt? [laughter] You know, [31:00] like what what's going I mean I mean [31:02] there's so many there's so much [31:03] uncertainty and uh n just playing [31:06] around. I know, [snorts] you know, they [31:09] probably [laughter] [31:10] maybe hopefully learn from that last [31:12] bit. But uh the numbers are going down. [31:15] I think though [31:17] in two years from now in general, [31:20] websites for sure absolutely still [31:22] relevant. Businesses still need it. I [31:24] think that people will go to websites [31:27] more intentional when they need to find [31:29] information. [31:31] You know, even right now, I find that [31:33] right. I I still go to websites even [31:35] when I'm looking for something, but it [31:37] has to be intentional like I have to [31:39] want to learn something more from that [31:41] specific site. Uh but yeah, it's hard to [31:45] say. [31:47] That's a good one. I would love to hear [31:48] your thoughts on this. I I yeah I kind [31:51] of like want to let my mind go to some [31:53] crazy theories right now. [31:56] >> I think for the the foreseeable future [31:58] it will I think the numbers will drop [32:00] down. Um but again I mean talking to [32:03] like like Mark for example Torblo 1976 I [32:06] know he's heavily into using AI claw [32:09] code and so on various different sort of [32:11] AI tools and platforms to experiment and [32:14] build sites and I know he's very much in [32:18] in that kind of mindset which is is cool [32:22] but I also think that we have to kind of [32:24] consider like I said going back to the [32:26] beginning people's usage of the internet [32:29] and how that's not going to change [32:31] dramatically quickly. You you're [32:34] expecting people with an ingrained use [32:36] of maybe their entire adult life of [32:38] using the internet to buy things, find [32:41] information, watch media, you know, [32:43] consume things, that's not going to [32:46] suddenly change very very quickly. So [32:49] while we may see a dip in the likes of [32:51] WordPress and I think we probably will [32:53] because [32:55] we're in a again we're in a bubble and [32:57] when you kind of consider I looking at [32:58] for example like when Elementor has [32:59] released their Elemental one thing. I [33:02] watched the video yesterday and looked [33:03] at some of the comments about it and [33:04] there's probably like say 10 comments on [33:06] there and I had a little look today and [33:09] there's probably about 60 comments on [33:11] there and the number of people on there [33:13] saying I'm off to this has just made me [33:15] go over to framer and or web flow [33:18] considering they're generally probably [33:19] more expensive platforms [33:22] but [33:24] when you get companies that are pushing [33:26] their user base away and and not [33:28] specifically talking about you know um [33:30] elemental here it's just That's the one [33:31] that's kind of the freshest in my mind [33:33] right now because of what they're doing [33:34] with their their one platform. [33:37] I think WordPress is probably going to [33:39] do the same thing because fullsight [33:40] editing for a lot of people is more [33:42] complex than it used to be before where [33:45] people would just use it and they go in [33:46] and they use the normal sort of [33:48] WordPress tiny MCE editor and it was [33:50] very easy. It's very much like using [33:52] word, you know, if you'd use a word [33:54] processor, you could use that without a [33:55] problem. Whereas for fullsight editing [33:57] and the goodenberg editor and so on, I [34:00] think WordPress is actually making [34:02] itself more complicated to use and not [34:04] simpler, which is probably why tools [34:06] like bricks and elemental and things [34:08] like that where you can make a much more [34:10] streamlined interface for users to get [34:12] in and you can control aspects of it a [34:14] lot easier. [34:17] That's that's only going to get worse. I [34:19] think more platforms are going to come [34:20] out. You know, if you look at web studio [34:23] for example, um when that's sort of [34:25] using a database there, if they start [34:27] bringing out the ability to easily [34:28] create CMS collections, [34:31] all these things are going to eat into [34:33] what WordPress has. And I think because [34:36] WordPress is very much doesn't really [34:38] seem to know what it wants to do. It [34:40] it's like you've got the leadership team [34:42] behind WordPress pushing it in one [34:44] direction, a big chunk of the market [34:46] sector. For example, what's Elementor up [34:48] to now? Let's just say 15 million users [34:51] or 15 million websites should we say [34:54] that's still a massive chunk of websites [34:56] that are not using WordPress as [34:58] WordPress using something completely [35:00] different. Then combine that with all [35:02] the things like divvy you know all the [35:04] different sort of builders and things [35:07] with fullsight editing just being such a [35:09] mess at the moment and the dashboard for [35:11] WordPress being a mess because it's like [35:12] there's two or three different parts of [35:13] it that look completely different. [35:16] people just look at it and go, I don't [35:18] know what I'm doing. I really don't know [35:20] what I'm doing. And then you got other [35:21] platforms which AI for example, they can [35:23] just tell it what they want. And again, [35:25] Mark is a great example of this because [35:28] he's got different people he knows. He [35:29] shares these different links with us [35:30] saying like this is a guy never built a [35:32] website in his life, gone to Bolt or [35:34] Lovable or whatever, talk to it and he's [35:36] got a site that's got booking on there. [35:38] It's got sort of like shows and things [35:40] on this. It's like a database driven [35:41] site kind of thing. And that guy's got [35:44] no experience in building websites, but [35:46] he's got a website that's quite that [35:48] would be a 5 to 10 grand website if [35:50] someone like you or I was going to build [35:51] it for them. Maybe even more than that. [35:53] And he's probably done it if he's if [35:55] he's paid bolt or lovable, let's just [35:58] say two months worth of the highest [36:00] tier, couple hundred at most, and he's [36:03] got a site that he can go back and say, [36:05] I want to add this to it. Now that means [36:09] that when you got things like which are [36:11] basically I mean you think WordPress in [36:13] comparison to stuff like that it just [36:14] looks like a dinosaur. It does. [36:16] Everything is manual. You have to go in [36:18] and you drag this there and you drop [36:20] that there and you edit this. Then you [36:22] got to go somewhere else because you [36:23] want to change the header and your [36:25] navigation's in a different place. Or [36:27] you can sit there. You can just type in [36:28] or talk and just say add an extra [36:30] navigation element in for this new page. [36:33] Create the new page same style as the [36:34] other one. blah blah blah blah blah blah [36:36] and suddenly you've got a page that's [36:37] being built for you. You can understand [36:39] why more and more people are going to go [36:42] down that route and as that gets easier [36:46] more people will adopt it and I think [36:47] that is going to be a major detriment to [36:50] the likes of of WordPress. That's what I [36:52] think anyway. [36:53] >> Yeah. See, I'm still resistant on that. [36:56] And that's my my internal human nature [36:59] resisting, you know, the change, you [37:01] know, because and I I just had this like [37:05] conversation with my buddy. He's all [37:07] into AI and you know, like [37:11] two years. I I have to see what happens. [37:13] I just know like right now and in this [37:16] next year, [37:19] I don't see leaving WordPress for an AI [37:22] tool. I think the WordPress still has so [37:25] much going for it. Uh the content [37:27] management part, something that is [37:29] structurally sound that is not just [37:32] going to change or prompt isn't going to [37:34] rearrange the code that you can't find [37:37] and take you down the wrong path. I [37:39] think things like that and having the [37:41] ecosystems behind it. And then uh also [37:44] the developers and the you know most of [37:47] the developers and people building [37:48] websites, they're the ones choosing [37:50] tools. It's not like a client comes and [37:52] says, [37:53] >> you know, can you give me five different [37:55] tools and let me choose which platform I [37:58] want to build on. Usually either the [38:00] client already knows or [38:02] you know the developer just goes with [38:04] what they use or the web designer. Uh [38:07] it's tough though but you know a thought [38:10] experiment just putting it out there [38:11] like what if lovable creates a CMS that [38:15] is structurally sound like [38:18] WordPress. It creates that and it builds [38:21] everything. So that way we can [38:24] build sites within a repeatable [38:27] structure structure that's repeatable [38:29] for all clients. You see trying to do it [38:31] right now for client work is going to be [38:33] different on every website. You could [38:35] try you could prompt your way to a CMS. [38:37] It'll I think it'll cost a lot more [38:39] money though, you know, because uh I [38:42] think it takes crazy amount of hours. [38:44] And that was the thing I asked my friend [38:46] too. I was like, "How long did it take [38:48] you to build your website and figure all [38:50] this out?" And he was like, "Yeah, [38:52] yeah." [laughter] He was like, "It was [38:54] insane." You know, how many hours and [38:56] how many credits? Also, you know, again, [38:58] my my inner nature kicking in, but I [39:00] just don't find prompting healthy. I [39:03] think vibe coding could be unhealthy in [39:06] a way. Uh, [39:09] it's like slot machines with the [39:11] dopamine like like I can't do short form [39:15] content. And I hate short form content [39:16] cuz I hate what it does to me, you know. [39:18] And I think for Yeah. Yeah. And I'm also [39:21] seeing that too in here in that [39:23] developers don't just like prompting [39:25] prompting prompting. They like building, [39:27] creating, finding solutions. [39:29] So, uh, [39:32] >> yeah, you can see how I could feel both [39:33] ways about this, you know, like, and I [39:36] still like I'm just like everybody else [39:38] right now inside of this time, and I'm [39:40] still working through and catching [39:42] myself when the closed-mindedness comes [39:44] in. And you said it before, [39:47] open-mindedness, like being open-minded [39:50] is the most important thing we can do. [39:52] Being close-minded and when we catch [39:54] ourselves being close-minded, that's [39:56] when we have to take a step back and [39:57] check ourselves. But it takes a level of [40:00] self-awareness, [40:01] you know. Uh, okay. I see a lot of Yeah, [40:04] the chats are blowing up, aren't they? [40:06] >> The chats are going well. I feel like [40:08] um, [40:09] >> but [40:10] is that because we are in this bubble? [40:14] is this sort of like I I can't see [40:16] things changing because we're inside the [40:19] WordPress bubble and we've kind of like [40:21] we surround ourselves with a semi-echo [40:23] chamber of WordPress developers and [40:27] plug-in developers and and things along [40:29] those lines. Are we not necessarily [40:34] getting the full picture? I mean, I I [40:36] agree that vibe coding can be kind of, [40:39] you know, frustrating, especially when [40:42] you ask it to do one thing and it does [40:43] it and then it undoes the last three [40:45] things you've got it to do, you know, [40:48] but all those things are going to get [40:50] better, you know, if you take, for [40:53] example, let's take a look at something [40:55] like Jet Engine, you know, Crocker block [40:58] jet engine because that's using an MCP [41:01] server. So in other words, it's been [41:02] trained on your website and trained on [41:05] Crocker block and those kinds of tools. [41:07] It's got a better chance of getting [41:08] closer to what you want with a simpler [41:10] or more straightforward prompt. That [41:13] again is going to be something that I [41:15] think is going to improve. Not [41:16] specifically Jet Engine, but like just [41:18] in general as we get more sort of closed [41:21] platforms, you know, take I use Lovable [41:24] and Bolt because they're probably two of [41:25] the most well-known ones. But if you [41:27] take one of those and you say, "Right, [41:28] that now has everything you need in it. [41:30] who's got the database, understands the [41:33] security, so you're not you're not [41:34] pushing to external services to do it, [41:38] then it means that if that's using an [41:40] MCP, for example, that that's got a much [41:43] better chance of giving you better, [41:45] solid, more safe results than going [41:48] through to these various different [41:49] external services. And again, that's [41:51] something that I think is only going to [41:53] get better. Um, and if you kind of [41:56] consider, let's just take go back to [41:59] WordPress for a moment. WordPress is [42:02] what 20 years old probably 15 20 years [42:05] old I think something crazy like that. [42:07] And a lot of it is still using the same [42:09] kind of database structure. So [42:11] inherently from a code point of view, [42:14] you talk to anybody that that delves [42:15] into the WordPress code and they'll say [42:17] it's a bastardized bunch of code that [42:19] has so much legacy code in there that it [42:22] it is a bit of a nightmare. [42:24] None of that is positive for the future [42:27] of WordPress. [42:29] It just it just isn't. And as much as we [42:33] might like it to want to be have a good [42:35] solid future, unless they change [42:37] something, [42:39] things are going to change dramatically. [42:40] I think over the next couple years where [42:42] I don't think WordPress has ever been in [42:44] a situation where where the landscape is [42:47] changing so dramatically and so quickly [42:49] that the likes of of WordPress has had [42:51] the benefit of being able to ride the [42:54] wave of popularity being free and all [42:57] those kinds of things. [42:58] >> But with the prices of plugins and so on [43:00] going up, the prices of everything [43:03] within the sort of the WordPress [43:05] environment getting more expensive. [43:08] It makes it less attractive. You know, [43:10] people that go like, "But WordPress is [43:11] free." Yeah, WordPress itself is free, [43:14] but we all know that once you want to [43:16] kind of go beyond a very simple website, [43:19] costs start to come in. Your hosting [43:21] costs, your plug-in costs, all those [43:24] different things, it all starts to mount [43:26] up. So, the free [43:27] >> isn't really free anymore. [43:31] >> At what point at what point does it [43:32] become too expensive in a platform [43:35] that's a legacy platform in a lot of [43:37] ways? [43:38] >> Yeah. And you know things like web flow [43:41] or framer like [43:43] you know the they could cost a bit when [43:45] you start to put you know the monthly [43:47] annual subscriptions on it. But when you [43:50] compare putting all the prices for your [43:52] hosting you know your subscriptions that [43:54] you got for your stack on WordPress they [43:58] could be quite comparable to each other [44:00] you know. Uh [44:03] but yeah man. Yeah, [44:07] I kind of [44:10] I don't know. I'm kind of stuck on it [44:12] right now. My mind is going. My mind is [44:14] going, you know, like I I'm just [44:16] thinking about what somebody else wrote, [44:17] you know, going back to the vibe coding [44:19] and being able to prompt. Now, that's [44:22] definitely got to be a skill we have to [44:24] learn. [44:25] >> And uh it's something that not just [44:27] anybody could do. And also I'm thinking [44:29] about my buddy who I was talking to and [44:31] I know the amount of time he put on his [44:34] website and he's like me, you know, got [44:36] a very obsessive behavior. Like once we [44:38] set our minds to something, it could get [44:41] dangerously unhealthy cuz we won't sleep [44:43] for days and all of a sudden we emerge [44:46] into the sun after not seeing daylight [44:48] for 5 days, you know, crusty and like 10 [44:52] pounds more than we wait. And uh the [44:55] thing is is like [44:58] we still need to learn it and start to [45:00] put in the work and put in those reps. [45:03] And you know uh right now we just got to [45:08] look at where it's at. Now WordPress in [45:09] general and we've talked about this [45:12] before. There is a bubble inside of [45:15] WordPress and that's the [45:16] closed-mindedness. And it's hard trying [45:18] to get out of it, you know, when you [45:20] want to get out of it because there is [45:22] that thing. But I there's so many good [45:25] tools out there right now. There's so [45:26] many different options that we got to be [45:29] open to exploring more of those options. [45:32] I what do you think about that? And if [45:35] you were to explore another option right [45:36] now, let's just say in the next year you [45:39] thought, okay, I got to learn another [45:41] tool cuz you know WordPress is uh you [45:44] know what what would you do? What would [45:46] you focus on? [45:47] >> Um good question. probably web studio [45:52] mainly because it's open source so it [45:56] means you're not tied in like you are [45:58] with the likes of you know framer web [46:00] flow and so on as we as we've seen [46:02] people have sort of come back that were [46:04] staunch sort of uh web flow users [46:09] that suddenly got stung for an awful lot [46:12] of money because they sort of changed [46:14] the plans you know they drastically went [46:16] up considerably more expensive Um but [46:20] then with a tool like oh sorry and the [46:23] same has happened with framer apparently [46:25] I was watching a video a couple of weeks [46:26] back where if for every sort of editor [46:30] you get on board consider that like [46:32] someone else that can kind of come on [46:33] and work inside projects it was [46:35] something like $30 a month for every [46:38] single editor per project. So if you had [46:41] the same editor working with you, let's [46:43] just say for example like you and I had [46:44] a business together and and the account [46:46] was in my name and I was building the [46:48] sites and you were also doing the same [46:50] thing as me. So you come on as an editor [46:52] for every single site I'd have to we'd [46:56] have to pay $30 for every site even [46:58] though you're the same editor across the [47:00] board. So what they've done is they've [47:02] got people on board at a lower price and [47:05] then they've suddenly jacked the prices [47:07] up once people have built their [47:08] businesses around it, which is a [47:09] standard business model. Not one I [47:11] particularly agree with. You can see it [47:13] all over the place. Lots of companies do [47:15] the same thing. They tie you in on a low [47:17] >> sort of get in the door kind of thing. [47:19] And then now we've got enough people in [47:21] there. Now we'll ramp the prices up. [47:24] Don't me wrong, Web Studio isn't perfect [47:26] by any stretch of imagine. It's still [47:27] relatively young. But if you're coming [47:29] over from a tool like bricks for example [47:31] or you're coming over from web flow [47:33] you're going to probably feel quite sort [47:35] of comfortable with that although they [47:37] have changed their pricing model and I'm [47:38] not sure if their LTD is still available [47:41] but if you did grab that and you were [47:43] happy self-hosting then you could host [47:46] as many sites as you want for a really [47:48] minimal cost [47:50] that is probably a good start. you know, [47:53] there's still plenty of things to kind [47:54] of look at that it needs to add in [47:56] there, like native support for CSS, uh [47:58] what's it called? Uh CSS grid, you can [48:01] do it manually, but there's no sort of [48:03] visual way of doing it. [48:05] So, it's an interesting platform. It's [48:07] got a CMS. It connects up to lots of [48:09] external things, including WordPress. If [48:11] you wanted to use a headless WordPress [48:12] and use that as your kind of front-end [48:13] design tool, WordPress is your CMS, but [48:16] you can connect up to notion and all [48:17] these kinds of other tools. So if you've [48:19] got clients for example that are [48:21] comfortable working in those tools and [48:23] they want a website and they can't want [48:25] to carry on working those tools then [48:26] connection there is relatively simple [48:28] and straightforward but again I think [48:30] we're still going down the same road is [48:32] how long will that method of building [48:34] websites even be relevant you know [48:37] >> is it is it we're going to go down the [48:39] sort of the AI is going to build all the [48:41] infrastructure and then we're going to [48:42] do the last 15 to 20% of making it [48:45] polished from a designer's point of [48:49] Yeah. So, more will be revealed. We have [48:52] to we have to see and stay open. You [48:55] know, that's that's all it is. You know, [48:58] we don't know. And, you know, like I did [48:59] kind of look at the chat and I think [49:01] it's cool. Sometimes I see some people [49:03] disagreeing. And, you know, this is it. [49:06] This is what it's about. You know, it's [49:07] about getting the conversation out there [49:09] because I disagree with a lot of the [49:11] stuff that I talk about right now last [49:15] year. you know, like things just [49:17] continue to evolve. And I guess that's [49:20] like the main thing for me right now, [49:21] the main uh hope out of this is, you [49:23] know, just create open-mindedness and [49:26] look at the evolution because there's [49:27] one thing that is certain is that [49:29] there's no certainty right now. Things [49:31] are changing. We're evolving. Our [49:33] industry is evolving. We have to evolve [49:35] with it and just be ready to go with it. [49:38] And about the pricing part, you know, [49:40] this is something else I was thinking [49:41] about too. Why is everything dropping? [49:44] And I also kind of think there's more [49:47] than just AI causing this right now. [49:50] There's also the economy. There's things [49:52] that are just very volatile happening [49:54] inside of this world. We're all seeing [49:56] it. I mean, we just came out of the [49:58] craziest thing in, you know, like in the [50:02] last 20 years, like last like generation [50:05] really, you know, with co that that was [50:08] pretty crazy and it changed a lot of [50:10] things. And then social media on top of [50:12] that. Humans aren't programmed to deal [50:15] with this kind of stuff. Not yet. You [50:18] know, like we're we're like setting [50:20] things up for our grandchildren right [50:22] now. They're going to have we're going [50:23] to have to do the mutation so they could [50:25] handle this kind of stuff that we're [50:27] dealing with. We're the experiment right [50:29] now. And they're going to be talking [50:30] about us, you know, uh, you know, later [50:33] on inside of the history books. And and [50:35] we're going to have the grand old [50:37] stories of my days. We use something [50:39] called WordPress. You know, [50:41] >> go look it up on on the new Wikipedia. [50:45] [laughter] [50:47] >> They'll just probably flip a They'll [50:48] just probably do this and like D and [50:50] just start talking to AI with the flip [50:52] of a switch and AI will give them a [50:54] breakdown. [50:55] >> Exactly. Exactly. Look, it's it is as I [50:58] think we said at the beginning of the [50:59] the stream, we are very much in the wild [51:03] west at the moment, the AI wild west. We [51:05] don't know what's going to happen. We [51:07] don't know what's going to stick, what's [51:09] going to fall by the wayside. The thing [51:11] we haven't talked about yet though is [51:13] the actual physical cost of AI and how [51:16] sustainable that model is. Because if [51:18] you watch anything, and again, like I [51:20] say, when we had a conversation the call [51:21] the other week, one of the things I said [51:24] to you was like, go and take a look at [51:25] some of the sort of the more general AI [51:28] content that's out there about what AI [51:31] costs and all those kinds of things. [51:34] And you got to kind of wonder how [51:37] sustainable is the AI model in its [51:39] current format. I mean you take a look [51:41] at something like chat GPT the overall [51:44] cost plus the cost implications that [51:46] that is having to the entire world RAM [51:50] prices are sky skyrocketing hard drives [51:53] you know especially SSDs digital storage [51:55] skyrocketing. Even spinning hard drives [51:58] are going up considerably in price. All [52:00] because of AI and their usage of needing [52:03] all of this to [52:06] store and process. And the more people [52:07] that jump on board, the more powerful [52:10] the AI tools are getting, the more the [52:12] requirement for that comes up. So at [52:13] what point does it all stop becoming [52:15] sustainable and your $20 a month GPT [52:19] subscription for example suddenly is [52:21] $200 a month because it is literally [52:23] hemorrhaging money. And whether the [52:26] government bails them out, which means [52:27] that you and I and our taxes are bailing [52:28] them out, or we pay for that service, [52:31] it's only so far all of this can go, [52:33] especially like you say with the state [52:36] of the world, the economy, the absolute [52:40] chaos that a big part of the world is [52:42] in, America, Russia, Ukraine, sort of um [52:47] you know, Israel, all those kinds of [52:48] things, and all the things that are kind [52:50] of going on potentially could happen in [52:52] the next year or two. It's such a [52:56] volatile world at the moment in so many [52:58] different ways. [53:00] I I honestly think something is going to [53:03] give and not necessarily [53:06] in a positive way. You know, it could be [53:08] posit not positive as in like the price [53:10] just skyrockets and you know, it's just [53:13] not sustainable. [53:15] And I mean, fair play. Yeah. Mark says, [53:19] you know, Claude pays for itself in a [53:21] day. Great. But let's just say, I don't [53:23] know what the CL max plan is, but let's [53:25] just say it's $100 a month, right? Well, [53:28] that $100, if things keep going the way [53:31] they are, could be $1,000. Would it pay [53:32] for itself in a day then? Especially [53:34] when you then become replaceable because [53:36] other people can easily interact with [53:38] those AI tools and get the job done that [53:40] you're doing for them. We don't know [53:43] this. This is a thing. Two 200 do. Okay. [53:46] So, it goes up to $2,000 a month. You [53:49] know, it's it's all going to be [53:50] scalable. [53:51] It's it's just such a a crazy situation [53:55] and I think AI has been adopted at such [53:57] a a vast rate and in injected into so [54:00] many different tools. So this the [54:03] requirements is way way more than it was [54:06] 6 months ago, 12 months ago where do you [54:09] think it's going to be in the next 12 [54:10] months? It's going to be massive. It's [54:12] you know something's going to give. I [54:14] mean what what do you think on that side [54:16] of things on the broader picture of AI [54:18] and the cost implications that that [54:20] that's having? [54:23] >> Yeah, I mean the bubble, you know, I've [54:26] seen a lot of talks about the AI bubble [54:30] about it not being able to sustain [54:31] itself or the cost for power. And when [54:34] that happens, I mean, I don't know what [54:37] would happen, you know? Uh [54:40] I I'll just be glad that I still have [54:42] Figma and WordPress at [laughter] that [54:44] time, you know, and the skills that I do [54:47] have. But I don't know. I kind of like [54:51] I [snorts] kind of like feel like when I [54:53] start to look at all this stuff and [54:54] especially what's happening inside of [54:56] the world it for me like personally it's [54:58] just my time to step back and just be [55:00] grateful for what I have right now you [55:03] know be grateful for you know the peace [55:06] that I found within you know and to be [55:08] able to just try to look at what's more [55:11] important in life you know it's the [55:13] reason why I stay out of the drama [55:16] inside of the Facebook groups and I just [55:18] stay out of the different conflicts and [55:20] stuff because there's so many things [55:21] that are just bigger and more important [55:23] in life than what page builder you use. [55:26] You know, at the end of the day, we all [55:28] want to have a good life, find some sort [55:30] of freedom, some sort of peace, and be [55:32] happy. And you know, like if if things [55:37] like pop, [55:40] I mean, the thing is we don't know. And [55:41] it's the reason why again, we just got [55:44] to be ready. We just got to be ready. [55:46] But at the same time, in the entire [55:49] history of mankind, we have never had it [55:52] so good. We really haven't where we can [55:55] change. Like right now, if I were to [55:57] lose everything, you're to take away my [55:59] computers, my camera, all of my [56:01] accounts. You're to take away all of [56:04] that, you know, like I could go ahead [56:06] and rebuild it with I could get [56:08] something cheap, you know? I could get [56:10] like a cheap laptop. I could find a way [56:12] to rebuild because I've learned how to [56:14] help people. And that's the most [56:16] powerful skill is when you learn how to [56:17] help people. You learn how to solve [56:19] clients problems. And you mentioned that [56:22] earlier on, you know, and [56:25] when I was full scale with the agency [56:28] before I was, you know, doing this and [56:30] just 100% agency, a majority of our [56:34] earnings came from our long-term [56:36] customers. The LTD of our customers, the [56:40] the LTV, the lifetime value. They might [56:43] seem small, like just a little here, [56:45] just this one here, just this one here. [56:47] But then all of a sudden, you like do [56:49] the, you know, you you you look at at [56:52] the revenue tracking, you're like, "Wow, [56:54] that client right there put in 10%. This [56:56] one put in 17. This," and then all of a [56:59] sudden you see the new clients bring in [57:02] the least amount. And you know, right [57:05] now we all are in a very fortunate [57:08] position to have skills [57:10] building websites for clients cuz we now [57:14] could use that and start to do more with [57:17] the tools that we have. And if the AI [57:19] bubble pops and all of a sudden it's way [57:22] overpriced, uh it's no longer able to [57:24] keep up and like it might even just go [57:28] out like there's just no power to power [57:30] the things and you know there's no [57:32] bailouts or anything, then we're just [57:34] right back, you know, we're we're right [57:36] back and you know it'll come back again. [57:39] You know, uh I don't think it's going to [57:41] go anywhere, you know. I I I just don't [57:43] think it is. I think it's here to stay. [57:45] There's no turning back from it. I think [57:47] AI won't let us turn back because it [57:50] might just take over the controls. [57:52] That's where my mind goes. Yeah. I was [57:53] like, wait, you can't stop me. You work [57:56] for me, you know, and all of a sudden, [57:58] yeah, that's when we got to really [58:00] worry. [58:00] >> So, so WordPress 2027 is going to be uh [58:03] powered by Robo Matt [laughter] [58:09] >> Matt Mullen Grock. [laughter] [58:13] >> The AI representation. Okay. Well, I'm [58:16] pretty pretty conscious of the fact that [58:17] we're just about to hit the hour and I I [58:18] know that uh you are 7 hours in front, [58:20] so I don't want to sort of drag this [58:22] out, but I think it's been a fantastic [58:23] conversation. Thank you everybody that's [58:25] kind of come into the conversation and [58:27] given your points of view, your [58:29] feedback, your questions, and so on. [58:30] It's been really fun to do this. [58:32] Jeffrey, thank you again for taking the [58:33] time out of your day to kind of jump in [58:35] and do this. I think it's been a lot of [58:36] fun. I think we should have a part two [58:38] of this in a couple of weeks time where [58:40] we can kind of talk about other things. [58:42] Um, and if everybody would like that [58:44] kind of thing, whether you're watching [58:45] now in the the live stream, drop a [58:46] comment in there, or whether you're [58:48] watching on catchup, leave a comment [58:49] down there below. But Jeffrey, for [58:52] anybody that wants to find out more [58:53] about you, what you do, and how they can [58:55] sort of get involved with your courses, [58:57] with your community, and so on, how can [58:59] they do that? [59:01] >> Yeah. Well, first, thank you, Paul. It [59:03] was great being here and having this [59:05] conversation. I really appreciate you [59:06] opening up this space. Uh for me, just [59:10] look up lightbox lyt bx and even in [59:14] Google searches and in AI, it'll tell [59:16] you how to find me. [59:18] >> It will indeed. It might not be the real [59:20] you. It might be the AI representation [59:22] of you, your avatar. But um quick quick [59:26] little story just this happened to me [59:27] last week. I'm working on a tutorial and [59:30] it's something with like Elementor's [59:32] cloud templates and I I really stopped. [59:34] I used them for a minute, then stopped [59:36] and I had to go back and I had to figure [59:38] out something and I couldn't figure it [59:40] out. And so I went to go Google it and [59:42] then Gemini gave me the response. I'm [59:44] going through the bullets like, okay, [59:46] okay, ah, that's how. And then it gets [59:47] to the end and it was from my video [59:50] [laughter] [59:52] >> inception. [snorts] [59:54] >> Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, whoa, I just [59:56] learned from me. Okay. [laughter] [59:58] >> It's amazing what you forget. Anyway, [60:01] let's do this again. And like I say, [60:02] there's already people saying like [60:03] they'd love to see a part two of this. [60:04] So, let's let's absolutely get another [60:06] one in the diary and and do another [60:07] video. So, thank you so much. Have a [60:09] fantastic rest of your day and the same [60:11] for everybody's in the chat as well. [60:12] Take care. Look after yourself. Let us [60:14] know what you're doing when it comes to [60:15] AI. Drop a comment down below and so on. [60:17] But have a fantastic rest of your day, [60:19] Jeffrey. And we'll speak soon. [60:21] >> Cheers. Cheers. Cheers.