37: S-Tier Software With Taylor Otwell
## Metadata
- Author: [[Mostly Technical]]
- Full Title: 37: S-Tier Software With Taylor Otwell
- Category: #podcasts
- URL: https://share.snipd.com/episode/ee6d1137-6417-4066-9d4f-2c083c5d3a02
## Document Notes
## Highlights
- Comparing Laravel to Microsoft & PHP Ecosystem Reflections
Laravel aims to streamline development by minimizing the focus on underlying infrastructure, analogous to Microsoft’s approach with their frameworks. Developers typically prefer ease and reliability over detailed understanding of complex systems, allowing them to prioritize application building rather than foundational intricacies. The PHP ecosystem has historically emphasized pragmatic product development, attracting those motivated by functional programming rather than architectural pursuits. There's a growing discourse on how to effectively position Laravel against the backdrop of popular JavaScript frameworks, advocating for its compatibility with front-end technologies like Vue and React. The challenge lies in persuading developers entrenched in full-stack JavaScript to consider Laravel, versus attracting newcomers to PHP by highlighting Laravel as a productive tool for building comprehensive applications. To reclaim PHP’s status as an accessible entry point for web development, enhancements in deployment ease must be addressed, aligning with contemporary standards to compete with modern deployment solutions.
Transcript:
Speaker 2
How many bugs are in there because you had to invent all this glue that is so fleshed out in Laravel that millions of people have used and been tested and all that thing. Yeah. I mean, to me, it's like that same background. It's like the background that we've kind of all come up with in Laravel, like the more entrepreneurial background. Like to me, that's so much like like like Microsoft builds out their frameworks. They're like, we don't want people thinking about all the glue and stuff. We just want them making products. And that's how Laravel is, right? It's like we don't, what's the upside to me of thinking about how the queue works? Like there's no business upside for me to have a deep understanding of like what's being serialized and how it goes and blah, blah. Most of the time, like I have seen Comba scenarios where like that's super important. But most of the time, like I'm just trying to send this email. The email is like a way secondary thing to the point of my application. And I just want to get through that part in 10 minutes and move on to the next thing, but know it's reliable and know it's scalable to a reasonable amount and all those things so I can get To building my application that I'm trying to build and not be down in the weeds of that foundational stuff. And I never really thought about Laravel as Microsoft before, but I feel like that's actually a super good one.
Speaker 1
Dave, full of takes, man. I kind of wonder if that's like because of or part of the PHP ecosystem. Like I feel like the PHP world going back to the mid early 2000s is just like, we're going to hack something together and we're going to build a product and we're going to make a business. And I feel like because PHP is not, it's not like the fun, sexy language. The people that are here are like, I'm here to accomplish a purpose, not to be some sort of, you know, astronaut architect, astronaut or whatever. And so I feel like it's kind of like our legacy or our history of, hey, we're, we're going to just build something because we can. That's how it feels to me. Mm hmm. I'm curious what I'll just kind of brainstorm with you guys live for a second. Because it's something I've been thinking about. You know, there's been a lot of discussion about, I guess publicly and some kind of back channel private discussions of like, how do we convince people that are currently using these Kind of so-called full stack JavaScript frameworks that there would be much better served, like just building on Laravel and maybe even using JavaScript on the front end. Cause I think that's something that people have been, we're not aware of until maybe the last few weeks of discussion that like Laravel embraces JavaScript in a way that, for example, Rails doesn't because we have things like a NURSHA that we push essentially almost as a first party type of package where you can use view and react on the front end with your Laravel back End and just return stuff from your controllers like normal and it feels great. And you can use all of the fancy react component libraries that are out there these days. But anyway, there's, I've kind of debated in myself internally, do I even try to like convert these people or is it better to like to focus on putting PHP and Laravel back at the top of the Funnel of where people first get into web development? Because I think 10 years ago or even longer ago when I first started writing Laravel, super common to like interweb programming via PHP. Because it's just like an easy language to learn. It was easy to host, easy to get started with. The documentation is fairly good as far as like the available functions and how they work and stuff. So like part of me has been like, you know what, like I think trying to convince people to like switch their whole stack is actually really, really hard. And we even tried to do this like in PHP itself, right? Where like 2015, 2016, there's sort of this Laravel contingent and this no framework contingent or maybe other framework contingent. And it's just very hard to like pull those people into your camp. And I almost wonder if it would be better to like really position Laravel as the most productive way to build complete products and market that just to people coming in to like web development From the beginning so you can just recapture them and maybe reposition PHP back at the top of that funnel where right now it feels like dominated by JavaScript via boot camps and just Learning materials in general. And I think part of that work is on us because while PHP was easiest to deploy 10 or 15 years ago, it actually isn't the easiest to deploy anymore. But I think we're working. I mean, that's something we're working on here at Laravel, you know, to kind of get us back to competing with like deployment on Versailles where it's like one command, boom, one minute, You're live. And I think we'll get back to that, you know, but it's, you know, maybe later this year or early next year. But anyway, that's kind of what I'm thinking. I'm curious how y'all feel about that whole like trying to convert people versus putting PHP back at the forefront of entry to programming and stuff like that. ([Time 0:20:23](https://share.snipd.com/snip/c3d720ac-3ccb-4c21-9399-31fe829a0a7c))
- Note: laravel
- Comparing Laravel to Microsoft & PHP Ecosystem Reflections
Laravel is compared to Microsoft's approach in that both frameworks prioritize removing complexity for developers, allowing them to focus on product development rather than intricate underlying mechanics. This approach reflects a more entrepreneurial mindset prevalent in the Laravel environment, contrasting with the earlier PHP ecosystem where rapid, improvisational development was common. The speaker discusses the challenge of convincing developers using full-stack JavaScript frameworks to transition to Laravel, instead suggesting a shift in strategy to promote Laravel and PHP as the most productive tools for new web developers. By emphasizing Laravel's compatibility with modern JavaScript front-end technologies and its user-friendly nature, there is potential to recapture PHP's role as an entry point for aspiring developers. However, it is crucial to address modern deployment challenges to maintain competitiveness with current technologies and hosting solutions. Overall, reestablishing PHP's prominence in the web development landscape may be more effective than persuading existing JavaScript developers to switch stacks.
Transcript:
Speaker 2
How many bugs are in there because you had to invent all this glue that is so fleshed out in Laravel that millions of people have used and been tested and all that thing. Yeah. I mean, to me, it's like that same background. It's like the background that we've kind of all come up with in Laravel, like the more entrepreneurial background. Like to me, that's so much like like like Microsoft builds out their frameworks. They're like, we don't want people thinking about all the glue and stuff. We just want them making products. And that's how Laravel is, right? It's like we don't, what's the upside to me of thinking about how the queue works? Like there's no business upside for me to have a deep understanding of like what's being serialized and how it goes and blah, blah. Most of the time, like I have seen Comba scenarios where like that's super important. But most of the time, like I'm just trying to send this email. The email is like a way secondary thing to the point of my application. And I just want to get through that part in 10 minutes and move on to the next thing, but know it's reliable and know it's scalable to a reasonable amount and all those things so I can get To building my application that I'm trying to build and not be down in the weeds of that foundational stuff. And I never really thought about Laravel as Microsoft before, but I feel like that's actually a super good one.
Speaker 1
Dave, full of takes, man. I kind of wonder if that's like because of or part of the PHP ecosystem. Like I feel like the PHP world going back to the mid early 2000s is just like, we're going to hack something together and we're going to build a product and we're going to make a business. And I feel like because PHP is not, it's not like the fun, sexy language. The people that are here are like, I'm here to accomplish a purpose, not to be some sort of, you know, astronaut architect, astronaut or whatever. And so I feel like it's kind of like our legacy or our history of, hey, we're, we're going to just build something because we can. That's how it feels to me. Mm hmm. I'm curious what I'll just kind of brainstorm with you guys live for a second. Because it's something I've been thinking about. You know, there's been a lot of discussion about, I guess publicly and some kind of back channel private discussions of like, how do we convince people that are currently using these Kind of so-called full stack JavaScript frameworks that there would be much better served, like just building on Laravel and maybe even using JavaScript on the front end. Cause I think that's something that people have been, we're not aware of until maybe the last few weeks of discussion that like Laravel embraces JavaScript in a way that, for example, Rails doesn't because we have things like a NURSHA that we push essentially almost as a first party type of package where you can use view and react on the front end with your Laravel back End and just return stuff from your controllers like normal and it feels great. And you can use all of the fancy react component libraries that are out there these days. But anyway, there's, I've kind of debated in myself internally, do I even try to like convert these people or is it better to like to focus on putting PHP and Laravel back at the top of the Funnel of where people first get into web development? Because I think 10 years ago or even longer ago when I first started writing Laravel, super common to like interweb programming via PHP. Because it's just like an easy language to learn. It was easy to host, easy to get started with. The documentation is fairly good as far as like the available functions and how they work and stuff. So like part of me has been like, you know what, like I think trying to convince people to like switch their whole stack is actually really, really hard. And we even tried to do this like in PHP itself, right? Where like 2015, 2016, there's sort of this Laravel contingent and this no framework contingent or maybe other framework contingent. And it's just very hard to like pull those people into your camp. And I almost wonder if it would be better to like really position Laravel as the most productive way to build complete products and market that just to people coming in to like web development From the beginning so you can just recapture them and maybe reposition PHP back at the top of that funnel where right now it feels like dominated by JavaScript via boot camps and just Learning materials in general. And I think part of that work is on us because while PHP was easiest to deploy 10 or 15 years ago, it actually isn't the easiest to deploy anymore. But I think we're working. I mean, that's something we're working on here at Laravel, you know, to kind of get us back to competing with like deployment on Versailles where it's like one command, boom, one minute, You're live. And I think we'll get back to that, you know, but it's, you know, maybe later this year or early next year. But anyway, that's kind of what I'm thinking. I'm curious how y'all feel about that whole like trying to convert people versus putting PHP back at the forefront of entry to programming and stuff like that. ([Time 0:20:23](https://share.snipd.com/snip/bd91669d-bfcd-4cce-9e27-7fdcae59fc73))