667: The Future of Faith in America With John Kasich  ## Metadata - Author: [[The Holy Post]] - Full Title: 667: The Future of Faith in America With John Kasich - Category: #podcasts - URL: https://share.snipd.com/episode/2ea9ed29-95e0-4837-9218-2b1a04198645 ## Document Notes ## Highlights - **Mislabeling Pope Francis' Theology** - Pope Francis is theologically conservative despite perceptions framed by American political categories. - Labeling him as progressive or conservative politically distorts his religious message. Transcript: Speaker 1 Caitlin, Caitlin, I just need you to do something for me. Define progressive Christianity. What is it? Speaker 4 I don't know. I mean, part of what's frustrating here is what I tend to mean when I say progressive Christianity, when I'm talking to people generally, is a form of Christianity that takes some of Its political cues from the political left, as opposed to pretty conservative Christians that take some of their cues from the political right. But even saying that just now, that's kind of some of what the articles are getting at. And it makes me uncomfortable because it can be a helpful shorthand when you're not going to get into all the details, but it doesn't accurately describe what most people on the ground Are doing. And really importantly, when it comes to American Protestants who would describe themselves as progressive, they are a world away theologically and politically from who Pope Francis Was, from who any Catholic Pope could be. And to just mash it all together and say, like, this is progressive Christianity doesn't do justice to Pope Francis. And it doesn't help us accurately understand what's going on with Christian political activism in the U.S. Because it makes it sound like within this monolith of progressive Christians, they're following the Sermon on the Mount and just doing what Jesus said, when there's a huge subset Of progressive Christians. And I say this with love for many dear people I work with and I'm around at the Divinity School at Duke, with people who I'm good friends with on the internet, who I really think need someone To say you're kind of doing the same thing that conservative Christians are doing in that you found your political cues from not just the general left, not just from the Democratic Party, But from kind of the far end of the political left. And you have found Christian language to, you know, baptize that in the worst form, or even just to kind of coincide with it in the best form. But you're not taking your cues solely from scripture or Christian theology, like everyone wants to claim they are. You're taking a lot of your cues from the activists on the political left. Speaker 1 Yeah. It seems to me that both of these articles start with the framework of the current American political moment and then push the Pope through that framework and decide, because I'm ignoring These things, he's clearly on the left in American politics. And then other, well, and people on the right are doing the same thing. I'm ignoring these things, the things that I actually agree with, that he says, or that the church teaches. And I'm just focusing on the things that, you know, we're getting upset about today. Sky? Speaker 3 Yeah, that's exactly what these articles do. Sermon illustration? No, no sermon illustration. But to Caitlin's point, by any measure, theologically, Pope Francis is a conservative. And any cardinal in the Catholic church these days, pretty much, is going to be a theological conservative. And what I mean by a theological conservative is somebody who takes the supernatural teachings and doctrines of the faith seriously and affirms the orthodox creeds of the church, Like the Nicene Creed. That's a theological conservative. There are Christians, progressive Christians out there who, not all, but some would deny the virgin birth. They would deny the resurrection. They would deny all kinds of the inerrancy of scripture, all that kind of stuff. They would deny that. And you can be a theologically conservative Christian and have either politically progressive or conservative politics. And hopefully both. Depending on the issue. Absolutely. So to your point, Phil, they take Pope Francis and push him through the lens of American political spectrum, conservative or progressive, ignoring his theological conservatism And then draw conclusions based on that. And it's just, it doesn't serve a theologically or religiously ignorant reader, these articles, because it gives you false categories and you need to redefine the categories before You explain. ([Time 0:21:55](https://share.snipd.com/snip/dbd33d9d-1ee8-4452-8b21-b21994bd8ba9)) - **Why Gen Z Returns to Religion** - Gen Z's religious affiliation decline has slowed significantly around COVID-19. - Young people may be returning to religion due to loneliness, countercultural factors, or rebellion. Transcript: Speaker 1 It's not that Gen Z is finding religion. It's that they appear to be moving away from religion at a much slower rate than every other generation. Over the last five years, the share of Americans who are nuns has stabilized at roughly 30%. In other words, the nuns are not growing anymore. And we don't mean Catholic nuns. They're sad because of Pope Francis, but that's not who we're talking about. People with no religious affiliation was growing very dramatically, and it's pretty much stopped now. It's leveled off. Sometime around or after the outbreak of the COVID-19 pandemic, young Americans began to find or at least retain religious belief at higher rates than previous generations. Why? There's no unifying explanation for the trend, but it extends beyond the United States, and that suggests there might be some structural reasons Gen Z is rediscovering faith again, Or rejecting faith more slowly. Something about post-COVID seems to be bringing youth back to Christianity, but also to religion in general. Okay, so Vox posits three reasons. The youth are coming back to the church. You with me? Mm-hmm. Sermon illustration? What, from my cousin Vinny? From what I do. The two youths. The two youths. The two youths have come back to the church. What's a youth? A response to the loneliness epidemic. Is it possible that some members of this generation who do feel isolated or lost might be finding community and friendship and organized religion? So Zoomers are lonely. They were raised with nothing but phones. They never went outside. They never met other humans. And now they're lonely. And so they're going to church. Okay, that's possibility number one. Yeah, yeah, you're buying that, Caitlin? Looks like Caitlin's buying it. I think she's sold on that one. A little bit of a stretch. Is it a response to loss of trust in the establishment? Like, what? I thought that's why we all left the church, because we lost trust in established religion. Religiosity and spirituality becoming less taboo among Gen Z might be a part of a countercultural, counter status quo, anti-incumbency energy that has swept many Western democracies Since the pandemic's outbreak. It might seem odd to think of religion as countercultural, but at least for many of the youngest Americans, growing religious disaffiliation has been the popular narrative and the Posturing of their elders. So my dad's a nun, so I'm going to be a something. ([Time 0:29:00](https://share.snipd.com/snip/4ea1c26d-e3f4-47ab-8fba-64981ff5bc5b)) - **Gen Z Gender Divide in Religion** - Gen Z men increasingly attend church for structure and belonging, while women leave over gender issues. - Women form communities outside church, but men rely more on institutional religion for social needs. Transcript: Speaker 1 So it's the gender divide. Have you heard of the gender divide? Yeah, we have a gender divide. Gen Z men are significantly more likely to attend religious services than Gen Z women, a reversal from what was the norm in the U.S. And young women are leaving American churches largely because of political and ideological cross pressures on what these churches teach about gender dorms, sexual identity, and Gender equality, as well as the roles women are offered in religious institutions. At the same time, the subtle integration of religious traits into the teachings and preachings of some alt-right manosphere-adjacent creators who have a particular reach with young Men might be amplifying this tension. So it's the Jordan Petersons, even Elon Musk saying, I think I'm a cultural Christian. The result is a generation of men finding community and belonging in religion that reinforces their existing political preferences and causes a further right word lurch. Remember lurch? Yeah. Yeah. From the Adams family. Yeah. Caitlin, Adams family. No. Lurch. Nothing. His cousin Belch. Speaker 4 Oh my gosh. Speaker 1 That was not true. That was not true, Caitlin. He made that up. He made that up. Okay. So these are three pretty different. Speaker 3 Yeah. But I think they could actually all be related. Yeah. Oh, tell me more. Tell me more, Sky Jatani. Well, if I had a magic survey wand, I would want to know. Do you? No. Why not? I don't know. We could talk to people. Maybe we can get something done. I would really love to know of these young men who are going back to church or entering church for the first time, how many of them have a father in their home? Or not necessarily in their home, but have a meaningful relationship with their father, stepfather, somebody, some male role model in their life. Because I wonder if the loneliness factor, the isolation that these young men feel, the loss of trust in other established institutions, and then this need for structure. Yeah. That some of them may actually – young men are drawn to gangs because it gives them a belonging and a structure and a rule to live by. They're drawn to fraternities because they want that brotherhood. They want that structure. And I think in this case, some young men may well be drawn to the church if it gives them the structure and meaning and purpose and guidance that they're longing for because they're not Getting it from more paternal sources in their lives. And it's interesting that young women seem to be leaving the church in a way that we haven't seen before. Because when I was in seminary, we had to read all these books about how hard it is to get men to go to church. Because church was seen primarily as a nurturing community, an empathetic community. And it wasn't appealing to some men. And now there's this movement towards the church being this structured, rigid- Being sort of a boot camp of ideology. Right. And I mean, this is an overstatement because every congregation is different, has its own culture and vibe and stuff, but... Nope. Speaker 1 They're all either progressive or conservative and they do it all exactly the same. Kaylin? Speaker 4 Well, I just also wonder if it's not so much the shift that Sky just described, but like I've said this before on the show when we've talked about the loneliness epidemic. I don't know if it's cultural. I don't know if it's biological. I have no idea. But it seems to me that women are more likely to create communities for themselves outside of typical structures for that. So we talked about this when it came to declining marriage rates and declining fertility of just like women who are single, who don't have children, in my experience, tend to still create Pretty rich community for themselves. Not always, but I think more often than men. Whereas it seems like men typically need the institutions that have existed to provide that in the past, which was family and church. And so I wonder if part of it is, I do think there's some truth to the kind of, I think, still somewhat oversimplified claim that a lot of people are making now, which is that women have been The backbone of the church, but now in society, they're saying, you actually can have leadership. You can have these opportunities. You don't have to just keep the thing running but not be in front ever. We'll give you opportunities to be in front. I do think that's some of it, but I do also think that it's in response to loneliness, men in particular right now are going to tradition and something that feels rooted. ([Time 0:36:45](https://share.snipd.com/snip/787afac9-7488-45ca-803a-b6d542af7297)) - **Balance Belief and Community** - Churches must combine authentic belief with strong community to appeal to people meaningfully. - Avoid diluting doctrine or community, as both are essential for true belonging and faith. Transcript: Speaker 1 What do we need to do to make a healthy church? Speaker 4 Ah, that's a big question, Phil. Speaker 1 Yeah, I know. Just want you to address that in 30 seconds or less before we wrap up the show. What's one thing we can do? Speaker 4 Well, okay. This is actually what I was going to say as an answer to your question, which is that I think the other thing that this data shows us is not just like Sky said, the ultimate failure of a certain Materialistic worldview, materialist worldview. It's also, there is just a human hunger, not only for there to be more to this life, but for there to be a sense of justice and redemption of things. Like we just spent all this time talking about, right, these causes that are labeled progressive, but Pope Francis really couldn't fit in that box. He cared about all of these various things because Catholic social teaching cares about all these various things. I would say scripture tells us God cares about all these various things that don't fit in a political box. And some of them right now feel impossible to be fulfilled. Like you're looking at what's happening with U.S. Immigration policy, or you're looking at the loneliness epidemic and you're looking at the failure of our society to create communities and structure for people to live full, flourishing Lives, you're facing great injustices in our policing. Whatever it is, you're looking at the world and you're just going, this is not how things are supposed to be. And I have such a strong, innate sense that not only this is not the way things are supposed to be which is a little bit of a of a move towards like where do i get that sense why do i believe things Could be different than that and a hunger for tell me that at some point things change tell me that at some point wrongs are righted and justice is served and things are made right and i Think the church has a real opportunity here to go we don't out. And we've separated out in various iterations of the church, whether it was like seeker-sensitive stuff, whether it is churches that are sort of captive to political ideologies, Whatever it is, we have often severed the community that the church is supposed to be with really actually believing the things the church is supposed to believe. And I think we're going to keep looking at these trends and going, well, maybe people need community, but they're not interested in some of the supernatural stuff. So we'll cut that out. Oh wait, they're into the supernatural stuff. Maybe we'll get really into that, but none of the demands of the church. No, we have real demands of community. We belong to each other. And that asks big things of us. And it asks that we believe kind of crazy things. But I think increasingly that will be appealing to people. I even see that with like the Gen Zers that are undergrads at Duke. There are a bunch, I've said this on the show before, but like there are a bunch of vaguely progressive-y, you know, mainline churches very close to campus that those students are not Going to. They're carpooling to an SBC megachurch across town. And I'm not saying that one is better or worse, but I've heard from the mouths of undergrad students that the reason they're choosing this conservative church is, and I'm almost quoting Them here, like they seem to really believe this stuff. And I think that really matters. Like we can't choose one or the other thick community or really believing this stuff. It turns out really believing this stuff is what makes it possible for us to belong to each other in that kind of sincere way. And belonging to each other helps us believe things that are pretty crazy and hard to believe. And the more that we try and pick one or the other of those to appeal to the shifting sands of our moment, the more we actually won't meet the moment. Speaker 1 The more we're just a rabbit in front of a jet engine. Speaker 4 Just getting squished in the engine. Speaker 1 The winds of culture. ([Time 0:45:14](https://share.snipd.com/snip/1ddb085b-959f-4bb6-bd3e-bb3bc2ce4725)) - **Measure Church Success Differently** - Churches should stop defining success by attendance or money and focus on deeper spiritual fruit. - Courage to speak truth despite losses is vital for renewed religious leadership. Transcript: Speaker 1 Sky, last word. I think the lesson is you wanna be the jet engine. You don't wanna be the rabbit. Oh my gosh. Right? So you wanna be the- No! You wanna be the culture that sucks people up. Speaker 3 No, I think the difference is, Hatelyn's totally correct on this, and you see it in Jesus. For too long, the American church, at least the segment of the American church that we three have been a part of, has kind of put its finger to the wind and asked, what do people want? And that led to the seeker-sensitive movement. What do people want? That leads to Christian nationalism and MAGA. What do people want? Well, maybe they want supernaturalism. Maybe they want candles and liturgy now. And they're always asking, what do people want? Rather than going, what is Christ calling us to be in this moment, regardless of what the world thinks of us, regardless of what politics says or the categories are, or how many people Are coming or how much offering is in the play, we will be the church that Christ is calling us to be. And if you are just that, some people will despise you. Some people will be drawn to you. And whether you have multitudes following you or just 12, you're okay. Because your value and significance is not in how the world responds to you, but it is in following your Lord. And that is innately attractive to people. And we don't do it because it's attractive. We do it because it's right. And that was Pope Francis. He said the things he said and modeled the things he modeled because he believed they were right in following Jesus. And when you start filtering him through the lenses of politics and cultural trends, it just warps his legacy. ([Time 0:48:50](https://share.snipd.com/snip/8e73d81f-4052-42f4-afad-2c34d5dacb1f)) - **Kasich's Turning Point in Faith** - John Kasich's faith was deeply renewed after his parents' tragic death in a drunk driving accident. - This personal loss sparked decades of spiritual searching and eventual commitment to Bible study. Transcript: Speaker 3 And what is it that kind of brought you back into your faith in a significant way? And how does that intersect with some of the stories you're telling in this book? Speaker 2 Well, I mean, you know, fundamentally, I was, as a young man, I was very engaged in the church. I was a Catholic, altar boy, commentator, all those things. And, you know, I felt a connection, but I'm not sure exactly what the connection was, but I felt like I had a connection to the big guy. But I went to college and like a lot of college students, drifted away and then got involved in a career in public life. And I was just driving around at 100 miles an hour. Things were going well. I was very successful. And then there was a tragedy where my parents were killed by a drunk driver. And to say it knocked me off my feet would be an understatement. It basically, Sky, it basically was devastating to me. And at one point, I just didn't know I was going to survive the grief I had. But at that point, I had a couple people approach me, one to help me try to get my life in order, and secondly, to explore my eternal destiny and my relationship with God. And my friend told me, he said, there's a window of opportunity you can go through and try to search all these things, which I then have been doing for 37 years. And my first faith book was called Every Other Monday. This one, you know, I basically wrote this one because I wanted the institutions to be recognized as something of great value and critical to our country. And that if people can focus more on what they can do through these institutions on any variety of issues from homelessness to human trafficking to poverty to literacy. I mean, that it gives people an opportunity to find their passion and being in an institution surrounded by people who will give them psychological and some material support for for Their hopes and their dreams. Was that critical in your own journey, the role of institutions, or was it more? No, not really. It was I mean, I started going to a Bible study when after I didn't want to have any interest in the Bible study until the accident. And then I started going to the Bible study. And then one of my friends said, well, if you're doing this in Washington, why can't you do it in Ohio? So I started a little study here, and it exists to this day. We meet every other Monday. It's existed for almost 40 years. We've had people who have been in it who have died, and so we've been replacing them with younger people, and it still keeps going, and it's trying to use the scripture to talk about, you Know, our path and, you know, what it, what is important, those kinds of things. So it's kind of a life study in a way. And, um, you know, it just, it, it kind of carries on. ([Time 0:56:07](https://share.snipd.com/snip/bef7a523-4d31-4909-8016-09faa7bd7ade)) - **Institutions Support Individual Impact** - John Kasich emphasizes institutions as essential supports enabling individuals to achieve greater impact. - He views faith communities as vital for people to find purpose and tackle societal issues together. Transcript: Speaker 2 I think that the judeo and christian ethic is a part of our culture and value system in this country and um yeah we the individual is critical and we're not taking the individual out of The institution. The individual's kind of got the fire, and what the institution does is support the individual. It's sort of like if you want to go into politics, you need a campaign. You need a campaign club. You need somewhere to go, right, to organize. And that's really what this is. And what the institution can do is to tell you keep going yeah i want to help you i want to get this done and um and it's it's done in it's what jesus would want he would want us to engage and The institution should be important and i'll let me just say to you also sky um i thought that people would be done with politics by now. I really did. I thought that after the election, people would want to take a break. Yeah. But they don't. They're as polarized and in their silos as much as they've been. And so part of my message is let's get let's get over that. Let's and maybe I'm I'm a little too soon. Maybe I'm a little too early. Maybe if I'd have written book highly critical of some political figure, it would be doing better than a book that says we should have hope. And I think it's great. And I think this book has a long life. I think people will find it. And I think it can make a difference. So I don't worry about too much, Sky. I have mostly always walked, you know, sort of a lonely road only to be followed later by people. And many of whom don't remember how I started or they passed it on to somebody else. But that's okay. I'm just doing my job. But I am shocked that people are still got their boxing gloves on. Speaker 3 Yeah, I guess it's reinforced in our media a lot. And people pick their corners. They get caught in their social media algorithms that get them stirred up. But you offer kind of a balm to that in this because you tell story after story of people coming together across differences to accomplish good things. The echo it reminded me of is George H.W. Bush in his 1988 campaign, I think it was. I mean, this is my childhood. Yeah, the points of light. Exactly. A thousand points of light where he was trying to really encourage and validate the work of ordinary Americans in their communities. And you've certainly picked that up in this book. Speaker 2 You know, Sky, here's the thing. Remember, all change comes from the bottom up. We spend so much time focusing on these big shots, right? Now, let me ask you a question. If the Secretary of State and your trash man went on vacation, who would you miss more? And let me also say, when you take a look at the big changes in our society, starting with the social gospel movement, which turned us from an I society, the Gilded Age, into a we society And brought about a lot of really good changes, the changes came from the bottom up. Martin Luther King, bottom up. So what I say is if you want to go protest, like I'm walking in here at Otterbein University today and kids have used the sidewalks to write a lot of messages on the with chalk and, you know, A lot of different messages about what to respect and what to hope for. I kind of really like that because at the end, it's what we do where we live. You could be a protester all day long, but what are you going to do tomorrow? I mean, there's a limit to how many times you can protest. So why don't you go do something after you're done protesting? Or if you're if you think everything's great, you know, in Washington or whatever, I don't know who, you know, then what are you going to do tomorrow? So I think the idea of knitting communities together, I've always believed bottom up, this is just simple to me. ([Time 1:04:31](https://share.snipd.com/snip/344b3a69-8386-40f6-be68-df2e89acd307)) - **Engage Passion with Community** - Find your passion and engage with a group to make life meaningful regardless of political or ideological differences. - Collaborate beyond politics to build community and impact. Transcript: Speaker 2 They have a much more meaningful life. And if people find their passion in a group, whether they're Republican or Democrat or liberal or conservative, after they're through pushing the car out of the snowbank, you know, Getting it out of there together. They don't sit around saying, well, which who did you vote for? They then go have a beer and they chuckle and laugh. And then maybe they talk about their politics. You know, I guess what I'm trying to say is do what you can do because it matters. ([Time 1:10:47](https://share.snipd.com/snip/4896c52c-4f49-4350-b2f8-88dfd610d532)) - **Hope for Unity Amid Division** - Political and religious polarization is extreme, but change will come through spiritual revival and renewed empathy. - Recognition of shared humanity and God's image is foundational for unity. Transcript: Speaker 3 I mean, we're not hearing that from our politicians and political leaders right now. We're getting the opposite, which is more division and, and, uh, atomization. Speaker 2 Well, that's been a big disappointment, Sky, is that, um, you know, when, when you go into politics, you should be in politics to do something, to bring about change, to make people's Lives better. But if all you're doing is doing rote work and just being loyal to your party and the philosophy of your party, which could change any day and we see it happening, then what you're kind Of wasting your time. I don't understand why you would do that. I mean, I was, I was, you know, raising Cain from the day I went in. I worked with people. I didn't care who they were. If they, if we had a common purpose, we'd work together. And that's kind of the way I look at how society ought to work. I don't have to agree with you to be your friend. Here's a radical notion, right? Here's a radical thing. I wish I haven't heard this for a long time. You know, I don't agree with you, but I like you. Or, you know what? That's a really good point. Maybe I should think about that. Maybe you're right and I'm not. Could you imagine hearing that? They're going to put that in the Smithsonian so people can go and hear that through some sort of technology that takes us back to the old days when we actually liked one another. Look, I think, I think, Sky, that everything's a pendulum. At some point, this thing will change. And and I think the institutions will will be there to block crazy stuff. And I think people will figure out how to get along again. ([Time 1:13:02](https://share.snipd.com/snip/43d8ed55-9db5-4416-bda8-fe78cbc4235d)) - **Live Matthew 25's Compassion** - Practice compassion by caring for the vulnerable as taught in Matthew 25. - Recognize that life accountability includes how we treat others. Transcript: Speaker 2 But it's going to take sort of a spiritual movement. So I'm going to be interviewed about the Pope today and the Pope's effect on American politics. Okay. I don't know that it's going to have any great effect, but here's what I wonder. Are these all sparks that can allow us to create something like we saw at the beginning of the 20th century? And that's some sort of a revival that is positive, that is not judgmental, that is rooted in scripture. And maybe that's what the Pope can be. And people are watching this closely, as you know. And, you know, they're divided within the Catholic Church about who he was and everything. But the spark of caring is there. And that's what we need. We need to we need to realize that we're all made in the image of God. ([Time 1:14:44](https://share.snipd.com/snip/587cf244-3527-44cf-b5f2-7e28708fd291))