688: The MAGA Contradiction & Educational Injustice With Terence Lester  ## Metadata - Author: [[The Holy Post]] - Full Title: 688: The MAGA Contradiction & Educational Injustice With Terence Lester - Category: #podcasts - URL: https://share.snipd.com/episode/188135bc-9e09-40f5-b2fd-856d8d1e8a44 ## Document Notes ## Highlights - **MAGA’s Moral Contradiction** - The Charlie Kirk memorial exposed a core contradiction within MAGA between Christian forgiveness and dehumanizing rhetoric. - Esau McCaulley and hosts highlight that Christianity and pagan desire for power cannot coherently coexist in the movement. Transcript: Esau McCaulley Hey there, welcome back to the show. This is the Holy Post Podcast. I'm Phil Vischer. Phil Vischer I'm here with Sky Jitani. Hi, Sky. Hi, Phil. And I'm also here with, it's not Kalen. It is not, who else is it not? It's not Mike Straylo. It's not... Mike Eerie. Mike Eerie. It is Issa Bacalli. I'm glad that I was your first choice. It is Issa Bacalli. How far until the, I'm sorry. Down the list? Skye Jethani Yeah. I was going to say Rolodex, but maybe that's a certain age group. How far did you scroll through your accounts before you texted me to come? Esau McCaulley Well, technically you do work here. I do work here. Phil Vischer Well, thank you guys for having me on the podcast. For heaven's sakes. Where did you just fly in from? I was in Los Angeles. Esau McCaulley Oh, speaking? Speak. I spoke at Newsong yesterday. Phil Vischer How'd it go? Well. Did you say anything offensive? To someone, I'm sure. Okay, that's good. Yeah. I just flew in from New York City. What were you doing there? That's wild. We came from opposite ends. And met in the middle. And met in the middle on the third coast. I was attending my niece's wedding. Oh, that's right. Anna. Yeah. How was it? Anna got married. It was good. It was good. Yeah. It was just a whole different world of a wedding on Roosevelt Island. Oh. In, you know, just off Manhattan with mostly ([Time 0:01:25](https://share.snipd.com/snip/4ca026b9-51dd-4c5b-9359-916a9281d430)) - **Widow’s Public Forgiveness** - Erica Kirk publicly forgave her husband's assassin at the memorial, modeling Jesus' command to love enemies. - Hosts described that moment as profoundly moving and compared it to forgiveness shown after the Mother Emanuel shooting. Transcript: Phil Vischer I don't know but it was just Fireworks at a funeral is a little weird. That's unusual. But then she gave a pretty amazing talk where she forgave the assassin. Esau McCaulley That's the headline I've been seeing today. The one thing I've encountered, and I haven't watched it, but my... You know, what she... That act on her part, obviously, very Jesus-like. I hope that that actually calms things down. Right? If there are any people, we've talked about this previous weeks, any people who were really activated by this assassination and seeking vengeance and retribution and wanting to take It out on who, I hope they heard her words and realize. Skye Jethani You didn't see it. See what? Her. No I saw no I saw I mean I saw that was the clip that I saw I did I'm going to be honest I did not watch the rally sorry I'm not trying to be flipping I didn't I didn't watch the memorial service I was not trying to call it a rally I did not watch the memorial service um I saw that clip. And if you watch it, you can see her gather up the emotional wherewithal to say, I forgive him. And to me, that was moving. Anyone who can stand up in front of the world and say someone who I deeply care about was murdered and I forgive them, that to me was – and it reminded me of the – I mean, this has happened a Bunch of times. But it reminded me of the shooting of Mother Emanuel, where they not only said, like, I forgive you in a similar way, rooted directly in like their Christian faith. And there were some people, if I remember this correctly, they also advocated against this death penalty. And so to me, in so much in that place, I think that her name's Erica, right? ([Time 0:11:51](https://share.snipd.com/snip/84a61bca-fe5d-40a3-b5b5-76fa4efb867b)) - **Dehumanizing Rhetoric Versus Faith** - Stephen Miller’s speech at the same event dehumanized political opponents, claiming "You are nothing." - Hosts argued this rhetoric directly contradicts Christian teaching about the image-bearing dignity of enemies. Transcript: Phil Vischer This is where it gets a little conflicted, because she spoke later. Earlier, Stephen Miller spoke, probably the most powerful man in America after Donald Trump. And she forgave Kirk's killer. Stephen Miller, in essence, damned all of Kirk's enemies to hell. Here's some quotes from Stephen Miller's talk. Our enemies cannot comprehend our strength, except when he speaks, he yells. He yells. So picture all of this. Yeah, please don I'm not yelling. Picture all of this being yelled. Our enemies cannot comprehend our strength, our determination, our resolve, our passion, our lineage, and our legacy hails back to Athens, to Rome, to Philadelphia, to Monticello. Our ancestors built the cities. They produced the art and architecture. They built the industry. I think there were a lot of enslaved people who built those things. Esau McCaulley I mean, literally started. Literally, yes. Phil Vischer Literally, the slaves built Monticello. Literally, he didn't build it. It's interesting to make the leap from Charlie Kirk was assassinated to our ancestors are the ones that built everything valuable. Yeah. Esau McCaulley Okay, 50% of this country votes Democrat. Roughly 50% votes Republican. Yeah. The half that votes Democrat, their ancestors also built this country. Phil Vischer Did they though? No. Okay, I'm not done yet. Sorry, go ahead. Hold that thought. We stand for what is good, what is virtuous, what is noble. And for those trying to incite violence against us, those trying to foment hatred against us, what do you have? You have nothing. You are nothing. You are wickedness. You are jealousy. You are envy. You are hatred. You are nothing. You can build nothing. You can produce nothing. You can create nothing. We are the ones who build. We are the ones who create. We are the ones who lift up humanity. You have awakened. You have no idea how determined we will be to save this civilization, to save the West, to save this Republic. To our enemies, you have nothing to give. You have nothing to offer. You have nothing to share but bitterness. We built the world that we inhabit now. This was to commemorate the death of Charlie Kirk. ([Time 0:15:56](https://share.snipd.com/snip/7bb2f17d-0a86-4b51-b87b-b06826ae7c5b)) - **Incoherent Political Narratives** - Hosts noted a political inconsistency: treating opponents as both powerless and dangerously dominant. - Esau McCaulley called this mixture paganism — a lust for power disguised as Christianity. Transcript: Esau McCaulley Miller's comments, Phil? Because there's a contradiction in there that I don't know how to reconcile. Because on the one hand, he's of course saying that those on the left have built nothing, they've created nothing, they're not responsible for anything. Phil Vischer It isn't entirely sure who the they is that have done nothing or who the we is that have done everything. Esau McCaulley Well, it's the political enemies of Donald Trump or the people opposed to MAGA, I assume. But on the flip side, one of the narratives you constantly hear from the political right and from MAGA folks is that liberals control and built Hollywood, liberals control and built The academy, liberals control and built the media. Well, they took over. They took over. Fine, they took them over, but they've expanded. I mean, the media, all these things and that the right needs to take them back. It's like, well, if they don't have anything and they don't build anything and they're not doing anything, then why are they so threatening to you? Phil Vischer Because they take over things like things that take over things that are evil. Like viruses. Esau McCaulley You want to create this big, bad monster of the left that's controlling everything, that's dominating everything, that's destroying everything. And on the other side, you want to say they're weak and useless and pathetic. And it's like, you can't have it both ways. Phil Vischer Bill Kristol, writing for The Bulwark, said this. He said, I have thought and thought, but I cannot reconcile how these two messages, Kirk's and Miller's, Erica Kirk's and Stephen Miller's, appeared on the same stage yesterday. They are not just intention, they are diametrically opposed. One is rooted in a commitment to recognize even one's worst enemies as human beings with inherent value. The other is built on a fundamental belief that those enemies shouldn't be seen as human at all. You are nothing. You are nothing. You are nothing. And that I see that some people on the right have already come out to condemn Erica's forgiveness. Really? Yeah. One person said, a commentator on social media said, this is the empathy that's killing the West. Esau McCaulley Yeah, the empathy of Jesus. Phil Vischer But this is, okay, here's my point. What was kind of nonsensical about the content of the entire presentation yesterday is at the heart of MAGA. Right. This desire to be perceived as Christian and entirely genuinely for a huge percentage of Trump voters. I'm a Christian mixed with the desire to hate. I hate what's happening. I hate those people over there. I hate those people over here. How do we hold these things in tension? We just kind of ignore the tension. Esau McCaulley It's paganism. It's this pagan desire for power and strength and domination while appearing Christian. And that's the contradiction. And one side or the other is going to win this thing. And I mean, right now it feels like the pagan side in maga is winning even though the rhetoric is christian but they can't coexist which ([Time 0:21:40](https://share.snipd.com/snip/fab3f409-5458-4d8f-b2df-ae4b2e447aae)) - **Poverty As Trauma** - Terrence Lester links historical redlining and concentrated poverty to trauma that impairs educational outcomes. - He frames poverty as multifaceted trauma affecting social, psychological, and physiological well-being. Transcript: Esau McCaulley Dr. Terrence Lester, welcome to The Holy Post. Sky, I'm really excited to be here. I'm glad you're in person too. Like you're in studio with us. You're in Chicago for a couple of days to do book promo stuff and signings and interviews. So thank you for coming out here to Wheaton. The book is called From Dropout to Doctorate, Breaking the Chains of Educational Injustice. It's part memoir, part policy advocacy. There's a lot of different elements of this book. One of the things that stood out to me is the way you draw a link between poverty and trauma and education. I'm guessing a lot of our audience doesn't put trauma into that equation very much. Explain why you link those three things together and maybe some of your own story that fleshes out why they belong together. Terrence Lester Yeah, I, uh, there's a number of ways. Uh, first, uh, I would say that there are two parts, uh, many parts, but I namely, uh, use the lens of two parts of trauma in the book, historical trauma and then personal trauma. Right. When we look at historical trauma, we we can't look at historical trauma without understanding how cities and communities were actually shaped. Right? If you have systemic injustice or some form of oppression, which leads to, I'm talking about a framework I use in a book, but it leads to public policy. We can name red lining, for instance. There are many cities, even like Chicago, Atlanta, right, where streets and highways actually divides communities. You know, you have vulnerable communities that are concentrated with poverty where well where it was actually legalized to concentrate the impoverishment of communities in certain Parts of town. And then you look at the social living conditions of those communities. Impoverishment itself, most times people think that it's only economics. Poverty is more than just economics. It's social, it's environmental, it's occupational, it's physiological, it's psychological, it's spiritual. Poverty affects the whole well-being of a person. And when you grow up in an environment that has been concentrated with poverty due to public policy, and that's linked to historic oppression or some form of injustice, then we have To move to the next step, which I define in the book is the trauma that is impacted as a result of all of these things. And so you imagine that poverty itself is a form of trauma. There's research that says that poverty, when you go through poverty, we shouldn't be separating trauma from poverty itself. Poverty is trauma. To wake up and not know where your next meal is coming from is a form of trauma. To work so much and you don't make a living wage is a form of trauma. To take your kids to school and you don't have a washing machine or dryer to wash their clothes, that's a form of trauma. To be a student that sits in a classroom and have the awareness that your family stayed in a motel or shelter and you have to find the courage to show up in school and be taught a lesson that Doesn't speak to your existential reality is a form of trauma. I grew up in that type of environment, right? I saw my mom as a single parent, work multiple jobs, have the resilience to go to grad school to work on her graduate degrees long before the internet came out with online classes and stuff. I remember sitting late at night watching my mom sit in the classroom. I could not understand what she was doing then, but her resilience. And she says this the other day. I wanted to ensure that you and your sister saw an example of what it was like to overcome and continue to pursue education as a pathway out. ([Time 0:47:04](https://share.snipd.com/snip/f10da82a-8058-4b71-91e3-42bb09595f00)) - **The Mentor Who Invested** - Mr. Eason, a wealthy mentor, paid for Lester’s undergraduate tuition and became a long-term champion. - Lester credits this relationship as pivotal to his educational turnaround and later ministry. Transcript: Terrence Lester Easton invited me over to his house and I told him my story and I said, I have a dream that I one day want to finish school. I want to go to college. He was a real estate developer. He used to develop, you know, apartment complexes, subdivisions. He was a very wealthy guy. And he sat there and listened to my story. And he says, young man, I understand where you've come from, but you're not going to be able to do this alone. He encouraged me to go to school. I get enrolled in school. He says, if you start, I'll help you. I was working at a warehouse. I saved up half of the tuition check. I reached out to Mr. Crow, which was the registrar at the school that I enrolled in. And I said, would you please just give me an opportunity to start school? I don't know how I'm going to, you know, get it, but I'm sure I will. I wasn't making that much. Right. I start and I start going to this small Bible college and Mr. Eason stepped in and he started helping me to pay for my undergrad education. So much so that he became a mentor. ([Time 0:55:30](https://share.snipd.com/snip/3df6b2c1-e424-418c-9515-fe13bb30d699)) - **Pair System Change With Mentorship** - Combine systemic reform with personal mentorship to close educational gaps rather than choosing one approach. - Provide access to STEAM, certifications, and college-preparatory exposure for disadvantaged students. Transcript: Terrence Lester And say, anybody could do it, but forget the millions of people who are still left behind. Esau McCaulley Yeah. Reading about that in the book and hearing you say it now, like, thank God for Mr. Eason. Praise God for Mr. Eason. Yeah. His generosity, his vision, you know, that you said you could borrow the courage that he had. Amen. Wonderful. At the same time, isn't it sort of an indictment that he's necessary? He's necessary. He's necessary. Terrence Lester Why do we... And this is the thing. Why should Mr. Eason's have to become the disruption in the lives of young men like I once was? Why don't we normalize it where everybody has educational equity, educational access, where a person shouldn't have to dream about dropping out of high school before they're dreaming Of going to college or dreaming to become whatever it is that they want to become. And most times people don't think how critical education is. I mean, I was doing a podcast not too long ago when we got into the AI revolution. You know how many jobs are going to be wiped out just based on, I mean, you can order a car right now and there's no driver. You can walk into a restaurant and type in your order and there's nobody taking your order. Some of the jobs that are readily available for people who didn't achieve any academic heights or anything like that. And it's not an indictment against them, but how do we get students access to STEAM, science, technology, engineering, the arts, and the mathematics? The only pathway into those careers sometimes is by having access to education, higher education, or even certification programs that will give them an advantage. ([Time 0:58:32](https://share.snipd.com/snip/6d99e434-b707-45db-8ee1-cebc98465592)) - **Return Education To Community** - Use your education and resources to return to and invest in the communities that formed you. - Build proximate programs (hygiene centers, tutoring, ID recovery) that create pathways and human connection. Transcript: Terrence Lester I've never seen education as a vehicle to be self-serving. The pursuit of education was to build more capacity. More capacity for what? More capacity to serve. The more capacity I have is not to have more capacity where it's just me, myself, and I is more capacity to truly live out what it means to have service as a lifestyle. When I look at Jesus's example, for the son of the man did not come to be served, but to serve and give his life as a ransom for many. And I follow that type of Jesus, that type of model, and I get all of this stuff and I'm like, oh, I want to just hoard it to myself. No, I want to go back and let people know that they, too, have what it takes to overcome. They, too, have potential. They, too, have brilliance. To create an organization to serve the unhoused community, to be proximate with those that I could relate to, because I understand both sides, right? But I want people who have been made invisible to know that God loves them so much that it doesn't matter their present circumstance, that God is the great restorer. He's the great redeemer. And God has the final say so with the direction in which a person's life can journey down. Right. I want to do work in Title One schools where kids are showing up every single day and they can't connect with the lesson because their families are unhoused. Centers in the school and retrofit classrooms so parents can come into school and wash their clothes. Parents can come in and have access to food. Parents can come in and have access to what the digital divide leaves out, access to technology so they can fill out job applications. I'm going to do that. Why? Because I didn't get a bunch of knowledge just to hoard it to myself. Doing myself and my community a disservice if I'm not taking what God has given me to go back and then serve other people. ([Time 1:09:37](https://share.snipd.com/snip/ecf449e5-389f-4dc9-96b8-dc22f50ac30d)) - **Proximity Reveals Dignity** - Proximity to people in need reveals hidden dignity and creates opportunities for redemption and practical help. - Lester emphasizes that community relationships often translate tangible support into life-changing outcomes. Transcript: Esau McCaulley Proximity comes up all the time. And then here at the end with the community thing, the importance of proximity, and that is such a core gospel value, right? Jesus came and dwelt among us, lived among us, was proximate to us, shared in our humanity and our brokenness. And so, yeah, those themes are beautiful and powerful. Before we wrap up, I'd love for you to tell the story of the turning point when you were in high school and you were ready to chuck the whole thing and walk out and something pretty unusual Happened that got your attention. I'd love for you to tell that story and what impact that continues to have on you in the work you're doing. Terrence Lester I was, my mom was doing the best that she could. I was dealing with a lot of the trauma from my environment, family conflict, the whole nine. So much so, it caused me to bounce around from high school to high school until finally I landed in an alternative school and it was considered open campus. And one day I was so burdened. I say, this is it. I'm going to, I'm just going to give up on school. I pushed myself away from the desk. I'm walking out of the classroom. I had three peers to follow me. Walk right out the front door, not less than a yards away from the school. It's a person experiencing homelessness, this man. I still don't know his name, but I remember his face trash hanging from his beard. And he says, because it was visibly, you know, that he hasn't like taken a shower or had access to like hygiene or sanitation. He says, young man or young men, he called to all of us, but I was the only one to respond. I turn and I walk over to him and he says, young man, is that your school back there? He points at school and I say, yes, yes, sir. I'm from the South. We say, yes, sir. And he says, whatever you do, don't stop getting your education. And I'm like, this guy's telling me this. He doesn't know that, you know, I ran away from home or sometimes I would, you know, sleep in parks or from friend's house to friend's house. He doesn't know that I had family conflict where I was growing up with a single parent. Why is he saying this? And he says, look at me. He says, you're going to be a leader one day. A man experiencing homelessness, one of the first men that will ever tell me that I would be a leader had no address. That disruption spoke to me. I eventually dropped out, but that conversation stayed with me. And then it planted a seed. It became a catalyst. One day I talked to my mom. I was like, I want to go back to school. And she says, well, I don't want you to get a GED because during that time coming up, GED was used to stigmatize black people. Right. You couldn't get hired if you had a GED. And she says, I'm going to try to get you back into school. She somehow gets me back into school as a fifth year senior. You know how embarrassing that is to go back to school as a fifth year senior, had students talking about me, making fun. You're super senior. You know, there are some educators who did not understand my social location. So they would label me right. Why I would be tired in school or why I would be despondent or have this type of disposition. That did not want me there. There was a teacher named Miss West. I got enrolled in her class, 10th grade geometry, fifth year senior. I walk into her class one day, her first year teaching. She was a black woman. She notices me. She keeps looking at me. And one day she tells me to stay after class. I have no margin for error. I can't fail anything. Nothing. She says, young man, I just want to say something to you. You're black. You're brilliant. You're going to get through this. I've heard the chatter and I want you to use my classroom as a sanctuary. This lady opened up her classroom. It was a class I could go into when I just needed to decompress. Classroom I could go into. Her name was Miss West. And she would just become a champion for me and a large part of why I finished high school. Years later, I end up in church. Guess who was a part of my church family? Miss West. She says I always knew it. Around that time, Mr. Eason is in the same church. They're encouraging me to continue to go to college five degrees later. And it's all as a result of people who saw me. And when I talk about seeing, I'm not talking about being ableistic. I'm talking about seeing my worth beyond my circumstance. Esau McCaulley What that reminds me of is, well, there's multiple pieces to it, honestly, that strike me. I had a significant turning point in my young life where a stranger came up to me in a similar way and gave me that catalytic message that I wasn't expecting. But, I mean, you and your wife and the nonprofit you're leading, you're creating all these great opportunities for people. Yes. Right? Whether it's, you know, food so that they can get through the day, tutoring. Terrence Lester Hygiene and sanitation. Hygiene. All those. ID recovery. Right. Because, you know. Esau McCaulley All necessary and wonderful, important programs. And yet, I suspect beneath all of that, what you also know is as people engage in those things, it's an opportunity for them to meet a Miss West. Yes. Or a Mr. Eason. Or that stranger who has that prophetic word. Yes. That they need to hear to keep them going. Those are the vehicles that God uses. Amen. To push us forward, even as we need those tangible things like tuition help. Terrence Lester Yes. A classroom. Yes. Sanctuary. Tutoring. Tutoring. Those soft skills development. I had one volunteer who had a knack for research. I met this guy named Ronald. He was experienced homeless, had been out of touch with his family for years. She helped him find his family. ([Time 1:13:50](https://share.snipd.com/snip/3a7406cb-9b80-4e90-b52b-0ffc8bb8e059)) - **A Stranger’s Word That Saved Schooling** - A homeless man stopped Lester as he walked out of school and told him, "Don't stop getting your education." This brief encounter catalyzed his return to school. - Teachers like Miss West later created sanctuary spaces that helped him persist and graduate. Transcript: Esau McCaulley I'd love for you to tell that story and what impact that continues to have on you in the work you're doing. Terrence Lester I was, my mom was doing the best that she could. I was dealing with a lot of the trauma from my environment, family conflict, the whole nine. So much so, it caused me to bounce around from high school to high school until finally I landed in an alternative school and it was considered open campus. And one day I was so burdened. I say, this is it. I'm going to, I'm just going to give up on school. I pushed myself away from the desk. I'm walking out of the classroom. I had three peers to follow me. Walk right out the front door, not less than a yards away from the school. It's a person experiencing homelessness, this man. I still don't know his name, but I remember his face trash hanging from his beard. And he says, because it was visibly, you know, that he hasn't like taken a shower or had access to like hygiene or sanitation. He says, young man or young men, he called to all of us, but I was the only one to respond. I turn and I walk over to him and he says, young man, is that your school back there? He points at school and I say, yes, yes, sir. I'm from the South. We say, yes, sir. And he says, whatever you do, don't stop getting your education. And I'm like, this guy's telling me this. He doesn't know that, you know, I ran away from home or sometimes I would, you know, sleep in parks or from friend's house to friend's house. He doesn't know that I had family conflict where I was growing up with a single parent. Why is he saying this? And he says, look at me. He says, you're going to be a leader one day. A man experiencing homelessness, one of the first men that will ever tell me that I would be a leader had no address. That disruption spoke to me. I eventually dropped out, but that conversation stayed with me. And then it planted a seed. It became a catalyst. One day I talked to my mom. I was like, I want to go back to school. And she says, well, I don't want you to get a GED because during that time coming up, GED was used to stigmatize black people. Right. You couldn't get hired if you had a GED. And she says, I'm going to try to get you back into school. She somehow gets me back into school as a fifth year senior. You know how embarrassing that is to go back to school as a fifth year senior, had students talking about me, making fun. You're super senior. You know, there are some educators who did not understand my social location. So they would label me right. Why I would be tired in school or why I would be despondent or have this type of disposition. That did not want me there. There was a teacher named Miss West. I got enrolled in her class, 10th grade geometry, fifth year senior. I walk into her class one day, her first year teaching. She was a black woman. She notices me. She keeps looking at me. And one day she tells me to stay after class. I have no margin for error. I can't fail anything. Nothing. She says, young man, I just want to say something to you. You're black. You're brilliant. You're going to get through this. I've heard the chatter and I want you to use my classroom as a sanctuary. This lady opened up her classroom. It was a class I could go into when I just needed to decompress. Classroom I could go into. Her name was Miss West. And she would just become a champion for me and a large part of why I finished high school. Years later, I end up in church. Guess who was a part of my church family? Miss West. She says I always knew it. Around that time, Mr. Eason is in the same church. They're encouraging me to continue to go to college five degrees later. And it's all as a result of people who saw me. ([Time 1:14:25](https://share.snipd.com/snip/9f051ff0-826e-4264-abdc-d580d83b24d1))