693: Holy Post Live from Chicago 2025 🔗 **Source:** [693: Holy Post Live from Chicago 2025](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTveFguLe88) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [christianity, culture, community, halloween, moral-ambiguity, holy-post] > author: The Holy Post > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTveFguLe88 > date created: 2025-01-29 16:21 > > # 🏷️ Title: Holy Post Live: Monsters, Demons, and Community Living > <!-- deep-read:sections start --> ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Consider intentional community living models — explore beyond nuclear family isolation #community - [H2] Evaluate Halloween as evangelistic opportunity — hospitality over fear-based rejection #ministry - [H3] Assess media consumption for moral formation — engage culture thoughtfully vs withdrawal #discernment ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [The Holy Post](https://www.holypost.com/) - [YouTube Video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTveFguLe88) ## 📝 Summary - A live recording of The Holy Post podcast from Chicago discussing cultural shifts in how we view monsters/demons and communal living arrangements - Why modern culture portrays supernatural evil as morally ambiguous rather than purely evil, reflecting post-Christian moral frameworks - Elizabeth Oldfield's London communal living experiment as counter-witness to Western individualism - How Halloween can serve evangelistic purposes better than Christmas in contemporary practice - Biblical approach to engaging fantasy/magic in media versus actual occult practices ## 📖 Main Content The hosts explore two major cultural phenomena: the domestication of demons in popular culture and the growing interest in intentional community living. They argue that moral ambiguity in entertainment reflects our post-Christian inability to recognize absolute good and evil, while the loneliness epidemic drives people toward communal arrangements that mirror historical Christian community practices. The discussion includes practical theology around Halloween evangelism and discernment in media consumption. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTveFguLe88&t=0) — [H1] Live show introduction and theme song performance - Key idea: Setting up live podcast format with audience interaction - Evidence: "Welcome to the Holy Post. This week is Halloween and on this special episode recorded with a live audience" #### ⏱️ [00:05:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTveFguLe88&t=330) — [H2] News of the Butt segment on breathing through butts - Key idea: Medical breakthrough in alternative oxygen delivery methods - Evidence: "Breathing through our butts declared safe after first human trial" #### ⏱️ [00:12:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTveFguLe88&t=735) — [H1] Should we all be living together? Communal living discussion - Key idea: Modern isolation isn't historically normal for human flourishing - Evidence: "It's not normal to raise children like this... we spend a large proportion of our lives dependent on others" #### ⏱️ [00:18:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTveFguLe88&t=1125) — [H2] Elizabeth Oldfield's London commune model - Key idea: Christian practices enable successful communal living - Evidence: "Five adults share the cost of running the house, as well as cooking, and other domestic tasks" #### ⏱️ [00:25:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTveFguLe88&t=1520) — [H3] Financial and practical benefits of community living - Key idea: Community living addresses affordability crisis and social isolation - Evidence: "To live in a community where you naturally run into people is actually becoming a luxury item" #### ⏱️ [00:32:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTveFguLe88&t=1930) — [H1] We're not afraid of monsters and demons anymore - Key idea: Pop culture now portrays supernatural evil as morally ambiguous - Evidence: "We are mollifying monsters and domesticating demons, humanizing them with empathetic depictions" #### ⏱️ [00:38:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTveFguLe88&t=2325) — [H2] Loss of absolute moral categories in storytelling - Key idea: Without transcendent good/evil framework, all characters become morally gray - Evidence: "If there is no capital G God around, who defines what is good and what is evil?" #### ⏱️ [00:44:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTveFguLe88&t=2670) — [H3] Horror movies as uniquely Christian genre - Key idea: Horror maintains supernatural good/evil categories while showing human complexity - Evidence: "Horror movies are the one genre where I think we really are very Christian" #### ⏱️ [00:52:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTveFguLe88&t=3135) — [H2] Biblical characters as morally complex role models - Key idea: Scripture shows flawed humans needing divine grace, not moral exemplars - Evidence: "All of them. Like we follow Jesus. We don't follow David" #### ⏱️ [00:58:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTveFguLe88&t=3480) — [H1] Halloween as more Christian than Christmas - Key idea: Current practice emphasizes hospitality and neighbor connection over consumerism - Evidence: "More ministry happened in our home through Halloween than any other time of the year" #### ⏱️ [01:05:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTveFguLe88&t=3930) — [H2] Q&A on discerning God's calling vs personal ambition - Key idea: Identifying wounded motivations helps distinguish divine calling from ego - Evidence: "A big part of it is knowing yourself enough to know where you're wounded" #### ⏱️ [01:12:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTveFguLe88&t=4365) — [H3] Engaging fantasy/magic in media vs occult practices - Key idea: Biblical prohibitions target control/manipulation of God, not fictional storytelling - Evidence: "The goal of magic... How do I get the outcome I want guaranteed?" #### ⏱️ [01:18:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTveFguLe88&t=4700) — [H2] Real spiritual danger in prosperity theology - Key idea: Christian magic disguised as prayer poses greater threat than fantasy novels - Evidence: "The prayer of Jabez... guaranteed outcomes that if you just do X, Y, and Z, God is obligated to bless you" #### ⏱️ [01:25:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTveFguLe88&t=5100) — [H3] True Confessions game with hosts - Key idea: Community building through vulnerable storytelling and humor - Evidence: Host stories about concussions, cattle herding, ghostwriting, and meeting Dolly Parton ## 📚 References - [Elizabeth Oldfield's work on communal living](https://www.holypost.com/) - [The Drew's Newsletter](https://www.holypost.com/newsletter) - [Holy Post LA Event](https://www.holypost.com/events) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Modern entertainment domesticates supernatural evil because we've lost transcendent moral categories - without God defining good/evil, everything becomes morally ambiguous - Intentional community living addresses both practical needs (housing costs, childcare) and spiritual needs (isolation, support systems) that nuclear family isolation cannot meet - Halloween's emphasis on hospitality and neighbor connection makes it more authentically Christian in practice than commercialized Christmas celebrations ## 📰 Newsletter This week's Holy Post Live from Chicago tackled two fascinating cultural trends: why our demons aren't scary anymore and whether we should all move in together. The hosts explored how pop culture's "friendly demon" trend reflects our post-Christian struggle with absolute moral categories. When there's no transcendent framework for good and evil, even supernatural villains get redemption arcs. Meanwhile, horror movies might be our most Christian genre because they maintain supernatural good/evil while showing human complexity. On community living, Caitlyn championed Elizabeth Oldfield's London experiment where multiple families share housing costs and childcare duties. While Sky worried about shared laundry logistics, the deeper point resonated: modern isolation isn't historically normal. The church should model this kind of mutual support. The evening's most provocative claim? Phil arguing Halloween beats Christmas for Christian witness through neighbor hospitality. Plus wisdom on engaging fantasy media (Harry Potter? Fine. Prosperity theology? That's the real magic to avoid). Resources: [Holy Post Events](https://holypost.com/events), [Drew's Newsletter](https://holypost.com/newsletter), [Holy Post Media](https://holypost.com) ## ✅ Action Items #### Community - Explore intentional community models beyond nuclear family isolation - Assess current support systems for childcare, eldercare, financial strain - Consider church-facilitated communal living experiments or shared housing - Develop hospitality practices that build genuine neighbor relationships #### Discernment - Evaluate media consumption for moral formation impact vs entertainment value - Distinguish between fictional magic/fantasy and actual occult practices - Identify prosperity theology/Christian magic in personal spiritual practices - Practice cultural engagement that understands without uncritical adoption #### Ministry - Reframe Halloween as evangelistic opportunity through hospitality - Assess how holidays currently practiced serve neighbor love vs consumerism - Develop theological frameworks for engaging morally ambiguous cultural narratives - Create space for vulnerable community building through storytelling ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Communities with shared living arrangements report lower financial stress and higher social support - Horror movies maintain clearer moral categories than other entertainment genres - Prosperity theology poses greater spiritual risk than fantasy literature consumption - Halloween hospitality creates more meaningful neighbor connections than other holidays ### 📊 Methodology - Survey church communities about living arrangement satisfaction and support needs - Content analysis comparing moral frameworks across entertainment genres - Ethnographic study of intentional Christian communities vs nuclear family isolation - Longitudinal study of holiday practices and neighbor relationship development ### ❓ Questions - How can churches facilitate community living without compromising healthy boundaries? - What distinguishes beneficial cultural engagement from harmful spiritual compromise? - Why do we accept consumeristic Christmas while rejecting hospitable Halloween? ### 🔮 Future Research - Economic analysis of shared living models for young adults and families - Theological development of prosperity gospel critique and biblical prayer - Cross-cultural study of community living practices in Christian contexts ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Churches should experiment with communal living and shared resource models - Policy: Housing policy should accommodate multi-generational and intentional community arrangements - Security: Prosperity theology represents greater spiritual threat than fictional media - Education: Media discernment requires theological frameworks, not blanket prohibitions - Funding: Community living models could address affordable housing and childcare crises ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 10th-11th grade #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Live performance format with audience interaction - Improve: Infographics comparing community living models, moral framework diagrams #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full audio podcast format with music and sound effects - Improve: Episode clips highlighting key theological points #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Rich discussion format with definitions and analogies - Improve: Glossary of theological terms, comparison frameworks #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Interactive Q&A, game elements, audience participation - Improve: Community living worksheets, media discernment checklists #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Theological arguments with biblical backing - Improve: Decision trees for cultural engagement, systematic theology frameworks #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Live community format with multiple perspectives - Improve: Discussion guides for small groups, community forums #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Individual reflection prompts through Q&A - Improve: Personal assessment tools, journal questions #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Historical patterns and cultural trends analysis - Improve: Ecological metaphors for community health ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear topic transitions, speaker identification - Improve: Timestamp descriptions, better audio descriptions of visual elements #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard podcast platform controls - Improve: Chapter navigation, speed controls #### Contrast and readability - Present: Audio format reduces visual accessibility barriers - Improve: High contrast transcripts when available #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Audio format accommodates visual limitations - Improve: Responsive transcript design #### Media and captions - Present: Full audio content available - Improve: Complete transcripts, speaker identification #### Forms and interactions - Present: Simple podcast platform interfaces - Improve: Accessible feedback forms, Q&A submission tools ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Discussion of various cultural practices and global perspectives - Improve: More international community living examples, non-Western theological voices #### Inclusive language - Present: Generally accessible theological language - Improve: Define specialized theological terms, avoid insider church language #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Clear topic transitions, consistent format - Improve: Content warnings for potentially triggering topics, sensory considerations #### Representation - Present: Male and female host perspectives, generational differences - Improve: More diverse theological and cultural perspectives #### Psychological safety - Present: Respectful disagreement, humor to lighten tension - Improve: Clear community guidelines for engagement ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Biblical theology applied to contemporary cultural analysis - Inductive strength: Personal experiences generalized to broader cultural patterns - Causal reasoning: Links between individualism and loneliness epidemic - Analogical strength: Comparison between different historical periods and practices #### Fallacies - False dichotomy: Halloween good/Christmas bad oversimplifies complex practices - Ad hominem: Some dismissal of prosperity theology practitioners rather than addressing arguments - Hasty generalization: Limited examples used to make broad cultural claims #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Conversational, humorous, intellectually curious with occasional provocative statements ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No significant denial patterns present - Attack: Mild criticism of prosperity theology and individualistic culture - Reverse victim/offender: No victim/offender reversal dynamics - Emotional cues and rhetoric: Humor used to disarm tension, vulnerability builds trust ## 🎯 Conclusion This Holy Post Live episode effectively challenges both Christian cultural withdrawal and uncritical cultural adoption. The key insight is that authentic Christian community requires both theological discernment and practical experimentation with counter-cultural living arrangements. Rather than fearing cultural engagement, Christians should model the kind of community life that addresses real human needs while maintaining clear moral foundations rooted in the gospel narrative. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad Purpose: Stage CEE units that become Literature notes. Split level: H3 ### [H1] Modern culture domesticates supernatural evil through moral ambiguity > [!quote] [Holy Post Live](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTveFguLe88) by [[The Holy Post]] via [[YouTube]]. Published 2025-10-29. Accessed 2025-01-29. > "If there is no capital G God around, who defines what is good and what is evil?" Post-Christian culture struggles with absolute moral categories, leading to sympathetic demon portrayals. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTveFguLe88&t=2325#H1) #xref #articleseed ID:rw_001 ### [H2] Intentional community addresses isolation epidemic through shared resources > [!quote] [Holy Post Live](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTveFguLe88) > "It's not normal to raise children like this... we spend a large proportion of our lives dependent on others" Historical human living patterns involved extended community support systems. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTveFguLe88&t=735#H2) #xref ID:rw_002 --- ### 🔖 Atomic Split Pad (Zettel Candidates) Purpose: Promote reusable claims into Atomic notes. Split level: H4 #### [Z1] Horror movies maintain supernatural moral categories while showing human complexity - Scope: Contemporary entertainment media analysis - Pointer to timestamp: 44:30-52:15 - Links: [[Moral-Framework]] [[Cultural-Engagement]] #### [Z2] Biblical characters demonstrate need for grace rather than moral exemplarity - Scope: Christian discipleship and biblical interpretation - Pointer to timestamp: 52:15-58:00 - Links: [[Biblical-Hermeneutics]] [[Sanctification]] --- ### ✏️ Fleeting Queue Purpose: Capture quick actions for Fleeting notes. - [F1] Research Elizabeth Oldfield's communal living book — community formation #fleeting #inbox - [F2] Explore Halloween hospitality practices — neighbor evangelism #fleeting #inbox - [F3] Compare prosperity theology with occult practices — spiritual discernment #fleeting #inbox <!-- deep-read:sections end --> ## 📺 Video  --- # 📄 Full Transcript *Auto-generated from YouTube captions · timestamps roughly every 30 seconds · [watch on YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTveFguLe88)* **[00:00]** Welcome to the Holy Post. This week is Halloween and on this special episode recorded with a live audience, the Holy Post host discuss why our culture isn't afraid of monsters and demons anymore. How did all of our pop culture heroes and villains become so morally ambiguous? Also, would communal living solve our loneliness epidemic? Caitlyn is all for it, but I'm not so sure. Also this week, audience Q&A. Phil, Caitlyn, Esau, and I play a game of true confessions. and Phil's favorite news **[00:30]** segment comes full circle. We've got two announcements before we jump into the episode. First, if you were unable to join us for this live recording in Chicago, I've got some good news. I'll be hosting another Holy Post event in just a few weeks on November 15th in Los Angeles. My guest will be Old Testament scholar and Holy Post pundit Carmen Ims. It will be a great conversation and a chance for you to interact with us and meet other Holy Posters in Southern California. Tickets for that gathering are now available at holypost.com/events. **[01:01]** And the second announcement is that we've launched a brand new email newsletter written by one of our favorite people because he's really smart and wickedly funny. That is Drew Dick. We're calling it the Drew's Newsletter. Every week, Drew is going to aggregate the best news from around the web along with the best content produced by Holy Post Media and drop it right into your inbox with his sharp analysis and ry humor. And the best part is it's absolutely free. So to get on the Drews Newsletter email list, head over to holypost.com/newsletter. **[01:33]** Again, it's holyost.com/newsletter. All right. Here is the recording from our live show in Chicago. >> Hi. >> How are y'all? >> Good. Okay. Hi. >> How are y'all? [laughter] >> Uh, welcome. Are we supposed to start? >> I think you're supposed to sing the theme song. >> Yeah. >> Okay, I can do that. But I have I do this so infrequently because and and **[02:04]** this is true. Whenever somebody says sing the theme song, I start singing the theme song to the Phil Viser podcast because I sang that one live on 300 episodes and the new one I sang once and recorded it. But I think I can do it. Okay. Oh, great. I lost my t tune. I lost my tune because there was no step. This is terrible. Esau, can you join me? **[02:35]** >> I'm good. >> Okay. [laughter] It's out. It's out of tune. It's out of tune. That's driving me crazy. Oh, what's your favorite What's the news that you love the most? What's your favorite podcast host? If [music] it's breakfast, get your toast. It's Sky and Phil and the Holy Post. Sky and the Holy Ghost. >> Thank you. >> And sometimes Issa **[03:09]** [applause and cheering] practice it. >> I truly appreciate the like near constant advocacy for more inclusion of me in the theater. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you got to break down the patriarchy. >> Exactly. [laughter] >> I just feel like I have a vested interest in the patriarchy. >> That's wild. [laughter] >> It served me. So, >> you realize this is recorded, right? >> What? >> There are people here. **[03:40]** >> Yeah, I can edit it. >> Can edit it. Okay. Okay. So, we're doing a we're doing a show and we're gonna do it like a regular show but with the people >> that have come from as far away as Seattle. >> We have to do something and I can't show this to Caitlyn. >> Why are you still holding the ukulele? >> What? >> Why are you still holding the ukulele? >> It's my special ukulele. >> This is emotional support ukulele. I'm **[04:12]** worried about where this >> I'm allowed to fly with it. Um, [clears throat] >> I'm not going to hold the mic for that song. >> Now it's time for news of the butt. [cheering] >> Stop encouraging him. >> I don't need you. [laughter] >> Okay. So, if you have been listening for a very long time, how many how many been **[04:42]** listening since it was the Phil Viser podcast? So, more than 300 episodes ago. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah, we grew a lot since then. Yeah, I guess that wasn't as popular when it was just me. Um, but the the origin story origin stories are very important in the world of comic books and mythology. And so the the news of the butt has an origin story. And the origin story for the news of the butt is that I found a story that turtles when **[05:13]** they're hibernating in the water can absorb oxygen through their butts. And I thought that I had the same reaction you had, which is that is delightful and I need to tell everyone about this because it's so delightful. So, and that's and that was the first one and it wasn't supposed to be a recurring thing, but I got to the end of that segment and just said this, you know, this has been the news of the butt. And then once you say that out loud, it becomes obvious **[05:43]** that it must continue. And then people started sending me news of the butt stories. It has been years since I have found a news of the butt story myself because they are served to me on on platters. serve to me on platters. And most of the emails that come in somewhere in the email say, "Apologies to Caitlyn." >> That doesn't make it better. It really doesn't fix it. >> Okay. Breathing through our butts **[06:14]** declared safe after first human trial. [laughter] Woo! Yes. Okay. We did another story while Caitlyn recovers. After the turtles breathe through their butt story, probably three years later, I came across the story that they did trials with pigs to see if mammals could breathe through their butts. And if you're wondering, well, how even is that **[06:44]** possible? Uh, liquid that's infused with oxygen. So, it's basically an oxygen infused enema. And it worked with pigs. And now they're starting to try it with peoples. >> Why? >> And are you guys seeing Esau here? >> He is on my team. >> He is reconsidering on my team. >> Esau's doing great. He is reconsidering many of his professional choices. >> I think we should I think we should organize. [laughter] >> Esau. I think we should organize. We **[07:16]** need to like >> I Well, now I didn't realize the people were feeding him this. the power. If you all stop, this stops. >> Uh-huh. Uh-huh. And yet >> they persist. >> Go ahead. >> I I don't think the issue is supply, it's demand. [laughter] >> There are there I don't think there is an issue. Um why would this be helpful? Say your trachea is blocked. Say your lungs are underfunction. Underfunctioning. Say you're in some **[07:47]** sort of respiratory distress. They now know that it may be possible to keep you alive with oxygen through your butt. Okay. Okay. Sermon illustration. >> The first shall be last, the last shall be first. [laughter] Hi, >> Esau. Would you like to participate in our sermon illustration game? **[08:19]** >> It's not what goes into the >> No. No. [laughter] [laughter] >> And Jesus sometimes. Yes. Yes. >> Sometimes it's your time to go. >> Okay. That's Is that a sermon? You know, >> I'm saying like if it takes that much, you might need to just meet the Lord. So like >> you know how they have the do not resuscitate stuff? I want to put like if **[08:49]** that's what it comes to, I'm ready to meet Jesus. >> I decline butt breathing. >> It's it's butt resuscitation. >> Yeah. Yeah. We I mean if you have a 5-year-old grandson, not that I do, but I I do. >> They speak to you through their butt. What does that mean? [laughter] >> He He makes noise with his butt. >> Yeah, we got it. >> To to make a point. He'll make a point by making noise. **[09:20]** >> Like he can do this on command. >> Pretty close. >> Yeah, it's impressive. It'll always be important. >> I think most 5-year-olds can do it, >> right? I won't. Do you have a sermon illustration? >> Well, no. I was just thinking that if I walked into a church and they started telling this story from the pulpit, I would not stay long enough to hear the application. [laughter] >> No, [sighs] >> you got to loosen up a little. >> Okay. [laughter] >> You got to This has been the Sorry. This has been the news of the **[09:52]** >> All right. [applause] Today's episode is sponsored by Sunday's Food for Dogs. We love our dog. Her name is Kina. We love to give her belly rubs and she loves to patrol our backyard to make [music] sure no squirrels break into our house to steal our valuables. We also love to give her Sunday's food for dogs. It's fresh, healthy [music] dog food that's easy to store and serve. Most dog food is one or the other. Either fresh [music] and healthy or easy to store and serve. Because Sundays is air dried, it doesn't require **[10:24]** refrigeration or prep. It comes right to our door so we never run out. [music] And it's healthy food. human-grade ingredients, 90% meat, 10% superfoods, 0% anything else. Folks who've switched their dogs to Sundays notice health improvements like softer fur, [music] fresher breath, and more energy. Kina loves Sunday's food for dogs, and we love that it keeps her healthy and strong so she can keep the squirrels from taking [music] our stuff. Give it a try. Right now, you can get 40% off your first order of Sundays. Go to sundaysfordogs.com/holyost **[10:57]** or use code holyost at checkout for 40% off your first order. Holy Post is supported by Credible Witness. Tired of hot takes? Credible Witness is a podcast that spotlights grounded people, pastors, scholars, and practitioners whose lives make the gospel believable. Hosted by Nikki Toyamato, each episode shares a personal lived story of [music] Christian faithfulness. Guests include leaders you know like Jamar Tisby, Walter Kim, Terra Beth Leech, Briana Parker, and Mark **[11:27]** [music] Labbertton. Hear from host Nikki Toyamaito herself. I'm Nikki [music] Toyamaito and this is Credible Witness, a collection of stories and wisdom from faithful people wrestling with and bearing witness to the credibility of Christian life today. Each [music] episode is an invitation to listen generously and courageously to one person, navigating social tension and moral complexity. And every voice reminds us that the church is called to **[11:59]** be a credible witness to Christ, a living reality of hope, justice, truth, and love. >> Should we all be living together? >> Us? >> No. Should we all be living together? Um, this is a story from where was it from? Do you remember where it's from? >> The New York Times. >> Oh, the New York Times. Caitlyn likes this story. It's not normal to raise children like this. This is a story by Louise Perry in Britain. She says, "My **[12:31]** friend Elizabeth Oldfield has that rare and precious thing, a village. Hers is in the middle of London, contained within a a generouslyssized family home that is now home to Elizabeth, her husband, their two children, a single female friend, and another couple that they befriended at church some years ago. The five adults share the cost of running the house, as well as cooking, and other domestic tasks. Elizabeth's children are never without babysitters, and when or if another baby comes along, everyone will help out. **[13:01]** So she's arguing is that this is actually the way it used to be. We all lived in extended families, not necessarily with well strangers, but people around that that in some cases weren't related to you, but often were. Um she says we all uh we tend to ignore the fact that we are not autonomous individuals and we spend a large proportion of our lives dependent on others when we're babies when we're old when we're sick when we're pregnant or caring for young children. And that during those **[13:32]** stretches of dependency we often feel a longing for something like a village. So we should live that way. Those who ask where's my village are right on one point. It's not normal for parents to raise their children in isolation. Traditionally, it was often post-menopausal women, especially maternal grandmothers, who are most deeply involved in the support of young parents. In fact, some researchers believe that is why humans undergo menopause. >> Discuss. >> I don't know that we need to go there. >> Discuss. >> Wait a minute. Wait a minute. >> What other animals undergo menopause? Do **[14:03]** you know? >> It's not part of my point of this article. [laughter] >> Orcas. Or >> orcas. Orcas undergo menopause >> and they're also very social. >> Yeah, they're social and and and grandmas take care of babies. >> Is this when they attack boats? >> Yeah. >> No. >> Okay. >> What do you have something to say? >> I'm wait I'm I'm trying to understand this for a second. They're arguing that human women undergo menopause so they can help with kids. **[14:34]** >> That was not the [laughter] point of this article. >> So, can I Caitlyn I think that you suggested this article? >> I did not for this reason. Did you do so so we can give hot takes on menopause or do we have [laughter] >> that was not that was not intended. >> I just want everyone to know that like this is what it's like to work here. [laughter] >> I was giving you the chance to talk >> illustration. >> Thank you. Thank you. [clears throat] >> What did you actually want to talk about? >> I really like communes and I would like to live in a commune and we had **[15:04]** Elizabeth Oldfield on the podcast a while ago. She wrote a really lovely book that was just kind of an approach to faithful Christian living in a kind of a pro post post-Christian age. And she writes a little bit in that book about the experience of living in this kind of communal home where to some degree they do a lot of meals together. I think they pull some of their financial resources for the home and they, you know, different people pick up the kids or bring them to practice or whatnot. And I just think it's both really an interesting point to couch the article in terms not of like, oh, this **[15:35]** is this radical new way to live, but actually it's actually very strange in all of human history that we don't live this way. And is this not only a response to a felt need that people have, but also distinctly Christian. And there's other parts in the article where they they give examples of very much not Christian communal living arrangements that people are seeking these days. But at least Elizabeth Oldfield's example of it, she's often pointing to the fact that actually if you want to do this well to live in community, which as Sky pointed out in our meeting the other day sounds kind of awful is you actually **[16:06]** need Christian practices of forgiveness and confession and repentance and you need a larger Christian story to ground you. Otherwise, of course, actually in a world that doesn't expect this of people, it is really hard to pull off. >> Yeah. [snorts] >> I want to defend myself. >> Okay, go for I I have talked to people some people who lived in communes not since yesterday but like in the past I have talked to people and they were always like it was great >> well it all changed yesterday so if you haven't talked to anyone since yesterday you don't know >> because it came up yesterday in our planning meeting and I thought back to **[16:36]** some interviews I did years ago for CT of people who had lived in Christian communes and it didn't end well and so it's one of those things that sounds great in theory I would love to have interactions with people who've practiced it over time that can give me a positive story. >> Can I give Elizabeth back? >> Can I can I can I give a counter point? >> Yes. >> Like most of Christian history before modernization. I mean before mobility I mean so I think there's two separate things that are happening at once. One is like I'm going to create a commune **[17:06]** which is different than a lot of this is living in community. So now when people for jobs and other things they have to relocate from their family. So a lot of those support systems are gone. So have to be created intentionally. But the idea that I would live near my mom and like my aunts and uncles and they would help with the kids. Well, well, you just said it was bad. >> No, no, no. That's but that's not a commune. That's just living in I mean a church should function this way, right? >> Yeah. What I'm saying? Well, I don't know if you know this, but often living close to your family goes bad a lot, too. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> That's what I was going to say. There's **[17:37]** a difference between living close in close community with people as a family would or a church would and actually living in the same home together and like sharing the laundry and all like that. You know, I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm just saying it's hard. >> I'm not doubting that it's hard. I'm just I just want to suggest that um I have I think that one thing that happened during the pandemic is that we all got into our bubbles and if you remember those days we realized we didn't have the support system and I don't know what the studies are but I **[18:08]** just know anecdotally a lot of people after the pandemic said I'm going to move back to where I have a better support system and one of the things I've said to college students a lot is that we're taught to find our jobs first and our community second And I would actually encourage them to think, can I actually live here? Is there actually a church in this community? Are there friends that I have? Because you can have you so many people have gotten to a place where they're financially well off, but they're isolated and they're **[18:38]** looking for community. And so whatever you can do to say I'm going to head back towards communal, not necessarily communal living, but community, which is what this I think is getting to, I think it's important. I think it's a good point. And I mean, I totally take your point, Sky, that this could be and should be the role of the church to provide that kind of support for people. Part of the challenge and part of the reason I like this idea, not that everyone should do this, but as a witness and kind of a maybe disruptive witness or provocative witness, is because even in the church, we are so **[19:08]** deeply formed by the expectations and the stories of a culture that says it is better to live an isolated autonomous life, whether as a single person or as a nuclear family. And that is it's it's both good to be independent and not need other people. And it is really good to not have the needs of other people put any kind of obligation or burden on you. And what I like about this is the witness of saying like actually you are really right that like sharing the laundry and getting into finances and all this stuff with a bunch of people who are not biologically related to each **[19:38]** other is very challenging and poses all of these difficulties that you could avoid if any of those people lived by themselves in a home. And yet they are saying there is something lost in a human life when we are so isolated from one another. Particularly partic with Elizabeth Oldfield's community there's a single person there. And [clears throat] when you were bringing up CO Isa I was thinking about the fact that I knew a lot of people who were within driving distance of their families biological families and went once the shutdown happened and lived with their families. I was in Dallas Texas. I was not within driving distance of any of my family. **[20:09]** And there were probably four straight months where I did not see another human being because I lived by myself. And I got on a plane probably earlier than it was safe. And I really agonized over whether I should to go see my mom and my sister. And I remember being with my mom in the airport hugging her and just balling because I was like I was going to die. Like that is not how a human being should live. And to your point, Esau, that's an exaggerated form of this. But I think the fact that people are seeking this kind of living is a similar thing. They're going like, I **[20:39]** can't live like this. This can't be what a full human life is like. >> And there's a financial aspect to this too because >> yes, >> I can I live in a walkable community where you can walk to the coffee shops, but that the cost of those communities, it's interesting that it used to be the the suburbs were more expensive and the cities are were cheaper. But now to live in a community where you naturally run into people is actually becoming a luxury item. And so this this and this opportunity for maybe single people, three or four people to be able to live **[21:10]** together and to be in a community where they get to see other human beings. The reason why people love coffee shops because you can just see regular people. So I I'm not sure that I'm sold exactly that we all need to have communes, but I do think that the current >> Who's going to pitch our commute? >> Yeah. No, no. I was I was say I just think that the the >> there is a flyer underneath your chair. [laughter] >> We have a great real estate opportunity we would like to talk to you about. I Okay. Can I say something? Is that okay? **[21:42]** And I won't I won't play my ukulele. I'll just say it. I um I've kind of been amazed that we got to such an atomized point that the the number of movies or news stories or or op-eds where people where young singles in the city describe with horror how they're going to get through a holiday with their extended family, you know, and there's a sense of does anyone know how to do this? Does **[22:14]** anyone have advice for how I can be around my extended family for 48 hours without going insane? And that is such a novelty in human history that we have actually turned it from an expectation to just to think of it's inconceivable. We can't even conceive, you know. So it just it I'm hoping there's kind of a revolt against that you particularly as people have kids or just or go through a lockdown or you know something happens **[22:45]** and you say boy I need more support then it's it's because we all need more support. >> Yeah. There's an a loneliness epidemic. >> Yeah. >> There's a lot of mental health challenges in our culture today. I mean so the need for community is huge. We definitely need that and I'm all in favor of community. I'm just saying no. I'm just saying >> you're just a grumpy old man. >> No, no, no. Just just don't touch my socks. >> I'm just saying when you go to the point of commune, I think this culture is so hungry for authentic community when they **[23:16]** see the church functioning that way, caring for one another, supporting one another, inviting a single person into your home, to your holidays, whatever, all of that. They're going to be really drawn and attracted to that. The moment you say, "Yeah, we all live together and share a budget." They're be like, "Okay, like that's that's a step too far." And I'm not saying everyone should do this. But I do think to your point, Sky, like Elizabeth Oldfield's community as an example. I have heard of I've never been a part of other churches where there's one house that maybe the church owns or someone at the church owns that **[23:46]** regularly cycles through, you know, some couples, some single people, there's usually children. And what it's helpful to is not only is a witness to the community, even the neighborhood they live in is like people do think it's weird to your point, but it also is weird in the kind of good Christian weird way that I would like us to do more of, but also for the larger church that is not living in that kind of community setting. It pushes them to go like, "Okay, if those people are going to pull their financial resources and I'm watching them do that even though it's really hard, I can probably **[24:17]** contribute some money to this family in the church that I don't live with, but like really could use a new car to get to this job or I actually could make a casserole for someone or I could like I think it it makes the larger church catch a vision for a really challenging but also really beautiful way of life. and they might not emulate it entirely, but they at least see something that they might want to do in some small way. >> Well, in particular when when more and more people are unable to afford the kind of atomized life, [snorts] you know, afford your own house with your own kitchen with five of your own **[24:48]** bathrooms and your own yard and three of your own cars. >> Um, and you see it >> and child care. >> Yeah. And and we're so horrible at producing housing for anyone who isn't in the upper middle class that there have been some experiments where people are doing affordable housing with shared >> you know facilities, shared kitchens and and that's it completely changes the cost structure for being able to live. I I think I read an article a while ago, one of the biggest new housing design **[25:21]** trends is multi-generational homes where we live in a culture generally whereas you get older, you don't move back in with your the kids, >> whatever. Like new housing is allowing for older people to live, grandparents to live with the family again. And some of it's financial, some of it's cultural because with more immigrants coming from countries where that is the norm, people are looking for those kinds of homes. There is a lot of historical wisdom to that. We do need aunts and uncles and grandparents and all those people around us to help. >> Should we since both of our mothers are **[25:52]** present, should we announce what we were talking about? >> You're going to live with Phil. >> No, there is a lot of wisdom in that. I get I'm not against that. I just think once you get into the into the commune thing, some people might look at that and go, "Wow, that's really inspiring the way they care for one another." and others in the neighborhood are going to go, "Are those the upside down pineapple people?" Cuz that's kind of creepy. >> I just don't think that's a good reason to not do something. >> So, two two things. One, >> an upside down pineapple person. **[26:23]** >> We I'll tell you later. >> Google it. >> Christians have always been seen as being weird for being Christian. If you read the early years of the church, they would say, "These are people who call each other brothers and sisters and drink the blood of their cannibals." >> Yeah. And >> let's be cannibals again together. And a lot of the problems you're you're talking about, maybe this is the Anglican part of me coming out. You're talking about the the same complaints that monks make all the time when they live in community. If you read any of the desert fathers or the monks who live together, they just kind of go, "This person gets on my nerves. It's hard to be in community together." And a lot of **[26:55]** the spiritual practices that come downstream into us, how we live outside of a commune, comes from people actually went through the hard and annoying work of getting to know one another. So yes, the monks complained about, you know, sharing stuff. And even in vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience, even when they had nothing to argue about, they'd say, "Oh, he chooses food too loud or he breathes too heavy during prayer." And so that's just part of life. **[27:25]** >> You just sound really, you know, consumeristic and seeker sensitive right now. >> That's low. [laughter] That's very low. All I know is even if none of y'all are down, I just moved to the area. Anyone who wants to join my commute, talk to me afterwards, >> she's not she's not. >> You do not know what you just unleashed. >> She does not want you all in her commune. Okay. >> Okay. Moving right along. I think they have zoning against that in Weaton. >> Um it is mid October. We are coming upon **[28:00]** a high holy day >> which hallows eve is now in some measures the most popular holiday in America. >> Peace wrote in Christianity today by Isabelle Ang uh who is grew up in Hong Kong says we're not afraid of monsters and demons anymore. She says she grew up in Hong Kong watching uh movies that portrayed supernatural creatures at extraordinarily frightening ways and she was terrified of them. She was terrified **[28:30]** of them. And then she's noticing how much that's changed. She says in recent Asian pop culture trends, these other worldly creatures aren't that terrifying anymore. We are mllifying monsters and domesticating demons, humanizing them with empathetic depictions like the grinning toy laboo. Um, or the Netflix hit K-pop Demon Hunters. >> Do you know what a Laboo is? >> Laboo? Yeah, I said little guy with a little man. >> Oh, okay. [laughter] I stand corrected. >> Yeah, that's what he looks like. And you **[29:02]** put him on your purse and it makes you cool. >> Wow. >> Yeah, I have one on my purse. Do you know what he's talking about? No idea. I don't either. >> What? We do not know what you're talking. >> I'm good though. I'm good. Keep going. >> Labu. Well, in our commune, we [laughter] are familiar with pop culture. [laughter] >> Uh, the Netflix runaway hit K-pop Demon Hunters. What stands out most in the in the movie is how demons are portrayed as creatures with conflicting emotions and a desire to do good. Such sympathetic **[29:33]** portrayals of demons and monsters are becoming more widespread instead of the grotesque one-dimensional caricatures I watched and read about years ago that were most definitely 100% wicked and therefore deserving of total destruction. The monsters and demons that are capturing our collective consciousness today are relatable and humorous, anthropomorphized, porfosized, or animallike in their expressions, body language, and actions. In an age of disenchantment, it seems nothing is holy **[30:04]** bad or holy good anymore. If there is no capital G God around, who defines what is good and what is evil? So, she's postulating that our the fact that we no longer believe in an overarching moral order means not we don't believe that anything is pure evil and pure good. Therefore, we have fun stories about friendly demons. Have you ever seen Have you seen **[30:34]** Hellboy, the movie? >> Yeah, a little bit. >> Yeah, a long time ago. >> Didn't really get into it. >> Hellboy. >> Yes. >> Oh, Hellboy. >> What do you think? [laughter] >> Hell. Did you see Hell Girl? >> No, but I'm more interested. >> It's not a thing. [laughter] >> There are no female demons. Everybody knows [laughter] >> except the lead singer in K-pop Demon Hunters, but she's only half demon. >> There we go. >> That's better than Fo, >> I guess. So, so Hellboy comic book **[31:05]** turned into a movie. Uh Gom Toro, one of the movies that put him on the map, is a a creative genius. But the storyline is it's about a demon that fights demons. So, it's it's like K-pop demon hunters 30 years ago, basically. Um, but it was a Nazi experiment. World War II. Hang with me. It's not true. >> No. >> Okay. >> Thank you. >> The Nazis were interested in in um supernatural, right? We know that. We're **[31:36]** good. You still with me? >> Okay. So, they in the in the story, not real >> story. >> Thank you. They start doing experiments to see if they can create a portal into the demon world to see if they can use evil to help, you know, defeat the allies. And so there's a crack team of allies of American soldiers and British that are charged with disrupting the experiment they're doing. And they arrive on the scene as they're opening this portal and they bang bang shoot **[32:07]** them up. Everything blows up. But something gets through the portal and they find it and there's a there's a supernatural expert who's who's British, who's Catholic and very religious and he finds a little baby demon that got through the portal before they so torn. >> And he adopts him as a son. >> We're going to do the whole plot >> and raises him. No, this is the back story of the movie. The backtory of the movie. I know. I've seen it. >> Yeah. Yeah. and he raises him um **[32:37]** Catholic to fight demons. So, and this was and you say, "Oh, that's ridiculous." Here's my question. Okay, [laughter] here's my question. If an angel can become bad, can a demon become good? That's basically the story line of Hellboy. I'm gonna The whole idea that demons are fallen angels is tradition. **[33:07]** >> I wouldn't argue it's entirely biblical. >> Well, then who made them? Who made demons? >> That's a whole can of worms. I think that's what we need to solve tonight. >> I thought we were talking about whether or not we had good or bad in in media. And which is interesting because >> Hold your microphone closer to your mouth. >> I'm sorry. [laughter] I was waiting for you to finish the Hellboy part three clock twist. Anyways, [laughter] but I I as someone who loves to read like sci-fi and fantasy, I've kind of **[33:39]** seen the inverse of this kind of phenomenon, which is there often some character who finds themsself through a series of circumstances saving the world, but they never actually want to save the world because it's the right thing to do. It's like, oh, in the on the midst of having to save my cousin, I also got to save the world. And there is this lack of I think that she's true that in media and in film it's almost boring that a person could do something virtuous because it is virtuous. And what makes virtue interesting is when someone who you would think is evil is **[34:09]** doing something virtuous. And so I do think that we have >> and and it's also boring if someone does something evil simply because they're totally evil. It's [clears throat] more interesting. >> You and one of my I have a little soap box on the movie Wicked. the musical Wicked because they are flipping the morality of what you grew up with and it's so confusing to watch a movie where the witch is bad and there's a good witch and a bad witch and then you say, "No, the bad witch was just misunderstood and oppressed and the good witch is is blonde privilege." **[34:41]** >> Yeah. >> You know, and but so let's turn it upside. >> He was pointing at you, by the way. >> What was that? [laughter] >> Kind of weird. >> He's not What? He's not pointing at you. I >> you're kind of strawberry blonde. >> I was going to say I I do think that we we lack characters who can inspire us to be virtuous and I do think that is cynicism. And if I could not to take this too far a field also used to I used to like romantic comedies and back in **[35:12]** the day in romantic comedies in a romantic comedies I'm going to sound like an old person. They got married >> just got invited into the comedy. They got they get married at the end of the romantic comedies, you know, like the when they have the last scene, there's a wedding and everybody's dancing. Now, romantic comedies, >> we all agreed that that was good. >> Yeah. And romantic comedies now end like, "Oh, we're together now. Who knows?" And it kind of ends. And so, even the idea that love is a thing that might last. I just feel like we're in a deeply cynical moment in our culture. >> Okay, here's my other thing about this article. On one hand, I'm totally with **[35:44]** you and the article in that and with Phil. I'm totally with Phil that we have a tendency to want more complicated moral characters than just good and bad. That's true in a lot of media, but when it comes to our political media, we want nothing but explicitly good and bad characters with no nuance or moral ambiguity. >> But so here here's what I was thinking about when I was reading this article. >> Replaced comic books with politics. **[36:14]** politics that we'll write that book together. Um, no, but but the other thing I kept thinking reading this article was both of those get something wrong. Like both this sense of, oh, actually what you thought was evil is more complicated than that and what you thought was good. Actually, maybe not as as good or eternal or long-lasting as you thought and this white hat, black hat. There's no ambiguity. That's just what it is. Both of them miss what I love about scary movies [laughter] and horror movies, which is what I thought this article was going to be **[36:44]** about and then it wasn't. One of my favorite things about horror movies is that they have the rare ability to combine this these the parts of both of these stories that are right. the part of the story that says human characters are complicated, never totally good or totally evil, always mixed and their motives are mixed and and they might be trying to do something good and then they actually end up doing something bad or they might do something good but with very bad motives or most of the time in horror movies the humans have these complicated motivations and and a sense **[37:16]** of agency. But in most horror movies there is this supernatural sense of what is good and what is evil. And what I love about them is it helps us name the reality that we struggle to name now that this article is pointing out. We struggle to name the fact that there is real evil in the world that is not ambiguous but is just wrong. And there is real good that is not ambiguous but is from God and just entirely good. But being able to name that while not putting that dividing line between one group of humans and another group of humans is really hard **[37:47]** to do. Well, the gospel does that entirely and perfectly. And it's weird for me to say that like horror movies are the one genre where I think we really are very Christian, but I think it's true and that it helps us recognize that there is this fight between good and evil that that sometimes is on this supernatural plane above us and then sometimes it just enters into human life and feels very real in the conflicts, even the political conflicts of the moment. And yet our ability to recognize that should not lead us to draw that line between humans. So, one of the more **[38:18]** prominent horror directors, one of his movies just came out, uh, Scott Derekson, who also did Doctor Strange and in the Marvel universe. Um, but his first movie was The Exorcism of Emily Rose. And he's a Biola grad. And he said that he was drawn towards horror as a place where his Christian worldview and the interest of the world overlapped. >> So, I was right. >> You were right. Yes. >> Right. You were right. I Yeah, there's **[38:51]** I've had this discussion with my sister who teaches uh literature and loves, you know, more she loves where things are headed in a sense of more ambiguity, less black and white. Um, but we were talking about classic fairy tales, you know, that were So, I think we were talking about Wicked actually and and rewriting what's kind of a western fairy tale of the Wizard of Oz uh with the wicked witch of of the east and good or **[39:21]** the west. Where where is she from? Wherever downtown um and and the good witch Clinda who's so pretty and blonde, which is an issue. Um, but >> I feel like you know the Hellboy plot better than the Wicked plot. [laughter] >> Yes. >> Yes, >> that may be true. [laughter] The Hellboy plot is much richer. >> Okay, >> I would say [laughter] **[39:52]** I >> think you've offended the Wicked fans. >> We'll talk about this later. This is >> You need to read the hobbs in the room. You're like, >> we got some wicked stands. Um and that in that in classic fairy tales they were painting very broad moral, you know, good and evil and the evil was usually ugly because evil was ugly. And if an evil person tried to seduce you, they became beautiful because good is beautiful. So you were drawn to it. But then if it was really evil and ugly underneath and it **[40:24]** was a way basically to to catechize kids, you know, morally. And we've so rejected black and white morality, you know, that as of the last 50 years, 40 years in film making, it's all about the anti-hero, you know, it's it's not the just the person who's just good. It's the person who isn't good but accidentally does the right thing or falls into the right thing or or maybe even doesn't do the right thing and we say oh that was so cutting edge but don't you think part of this is I mean **[40:54]** we are the postwatergate generation the post Enron generation the post everything gen the the Catholic church scandal the SPC scandals the institutions and people that were supposed to be good turned out to be a lot more wicked and as a result we don't trust those things that are labeled good as to be truly good and the inverse is a natural reaction. Well, maybe some of the things we've been told are evil aren't really that evil. So, the ambiguity is partly because the virtuous ones turned out not to be. **[41:24]** >> And this is one of those times where I feel like that narrative [clears throat] is always inadequate because once again, I would ask those lists of people I didn't think those people were virtuous. So you talking about during the 40s50s60s Jim Crow slavery [snorts] but even behind that I don't think that anybody looks at the era of the monarchy as being like this time of virtuous rulers and then you have the industrial revolution. So I don't I'm not sure that **[41:55]** we are in a uniquely evil moment. I think we've always been in a place where there are people who had power, whether it was in monarchy or in the rise of democracy, who used their power for wicked and for whom we might then be cynical about the idea, right? The whole point of democracy is we don't trust kings. >> Yeah. I think the only You're completely right. The only thing I would add to it is the center of popular storytelling in America for the past century has been Hollywood. >> Yeah. >> And those stories have tended to be very **[42:26]** pro-American. Yeah. >> And pro institution. Do >> you know >> in the last generation I think that's changed. >> Do you know why? Because this is a fun story. All all of the patriotic movies of the 40s and 50s uh were because the government was starting to crack down on communists in Hollywood. All of the heads of the studios in Hollywood were Jewish who felt that they weren't considered real Americans. And many of the writers they were hiring were Jewish intellectuals from New York who were **[42:57]** writing in on for stage. And many of them were in fact members of the Communist Party in the 1920s and 1930s. So there was a real thing there. But it was it was Jewish studio heads trying to prove their Americanness, right? But I mean this is to Caitlyn's point about today's politics. >> So even that was morally ambiguous. It was like in our politics today, we just want people to be evil or people to be good. And during the Cold War, it was, well, the communists are the they're the demons. They're the evil ones. In America, we're the good guys. And so, **[43:28]** the narrative was really, really simple. And that's gotten increasingly complicated with Vietnam and Watergate. And then with the fall of communism, we all turned on one another and now it's right versus left. And all the ambiguities have come to the surface. And I'm not surprised that the ambiguities would also go towards evil. It's h it's not entirely evil. It's all from your point of view. And well, particularly when we when you know coming through the 60s, a big chunk of America thought everything went wrong in the 60s and and that's where America **[43:58]** broke. For another chunk of America, that's where America started living up to her promise, >> right? >> You know, so this radically different view. So even that generates either ambiguity or or just a sort of a bipolar that we don't know what to do with. It's like, oh, everything was good until what? The Civil Rights Act passed. That's when No, no, that's not what I meant. It was, you know, it was the sexual revolution. That's what I was talking about. >> Can I do a Jesus juke? >> Yeah, do it. One of the things that **[44:30]** makes the Bible so glorious is it actually depicts what I think we want to see which are broken and flawed people who are doing the best that they can to live up to this ideal and you see them failing and you see God's grace intervening and so you learn through the brokenness of humankind trying to live up to God's ideals and the inability to do so the need for the true good and beautiful namely Jesus and and so I do think that the kind of authenticity or **[45:00]** mixed motivations that we see is actually unveiled. And actually some people struggle to read the Bible because they kind of go, well, is Moses a good guy or a bad guy? Is is Abraham a good guy or bad guy? Well, he's a guy who does some really bad things, but whom God like is working through. And so I do think that there is space maybe I want to say sometimes Christians want to hearken back to a less morally complicated age instead of embracing the Bible actually depicts the world that people want to see. >> Right. There's a big u Twitter I don't **[45:31]** know if you ever been on Twitter. It's new. Um [laughter] it's it's really fun. It's >> the young people are all over it. >> Yeah. It's people who tell each other how much they they love each other and admire each other. But there was a big um kurfuffle over saying David raped Beth Sheeba. Yeah. Have you seen that? And there was there were so many Christians that were saying how dare you. >> Yeah. >> How dare you, David? >> That cycles like every 18 months that **[46:02]** refines. >> It seems to but it's that we're murdered someone. >> That's exactly what I always say. Yes. >> Yes. But he's not a sexual predator. Murder. Fine. We're okay with that. >> The the point being we're looking at the wrong characters in the Bible for moral purity. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Why don't we like look at Jesus? >> Huh? >> Okay. >> Like I I'm sorry. I just had a conversation about this recently. I am so annoyed with everyone trying to figure out which is the right male character in the Bible that exemplifies **[46:32]** godly masculinity. [laughter] >> And then we do this for women too. It's Jesus. just like only when he was holding on women. >> Only when he was holding a whip. >> So anyway, I just >> it might be the case that virtue isn't gendered, but you know, >> I don't get this whole idea of making heroes out of Bible characters when they're so morally complicated. All of them. Like we follow Jesus. We don't follow David. >> Yeah. >> Okay, that's I'm done. Wow. That was You **[47:03]** heard it here, folks. But the real question people are asking that I think we need to answer is should they let their kids trick-or- treat? [laughter] >> Yes. I I think in the first year of the Phil Viser podcast, I created one of our first kuruffles to use your word. >> You kuruffed? >> Yes, I kuruffed when when I said >> you know turtles can kuruff in their butts >> only when they hibernate, which would be a great Halloween **[47:33]** costume. Yeah, they're going to test it on pigs next. >> Uh, and then us. >> When I said the way it's currently practiced, I think a very strong case can be made that Halloween is a more Christian holiday than Christmas. >> Do that again. Oh, >> I know. >> I am standing by that. >> You're recycling old. I am standing by that. >> I can't say that and then not unpack it cuz we don't have ahead. >> I'm not unpacking that. >> Yeah. Okay. We're just throw out. Thanks for coming everybody. Explain it. So you **[48:04]** >> I'll explain it very briefly. I don't think I have to make a case for how consumeristic Christmas has become. >> Yes. >> Okay. It's a very materialistic holiday in the way it's generally practiced in America. >> What do you mean? >> I don't even When our children were young, and I credit my wife entirely for this, we used Halloween as a an amazing opportunity to connect with our neighbors, to be hospitable, to build relationships. It was the we if you want to use like Christian cliches, more **[48:34]** ministry happened in our home through Halloween than any other time of the year. >> That's cuz you won't invite anyone over for Christmas. >> But we don't live in a commune. It's just for our family. >> I'm I'm free on Christmas. I'm I'm I'm I'm hoping. >> All I'm saying is >> I'm I have my day is completely >> I am saying for those who think of Halloween as evil, I believe. >> I know. What I'm saying is I'm free. We can [laughter] Halloween can be redeemed is my plan. >> Are you busy on Christmas? >> I don't know what our plans are. I'll **[49:06]** get back to you. [laughter] >> Probably going to be on a cruise. >> Just your kids. Okay, cool. Hey, let's do some Q&A. Should we do some Q&A? It's fun to do Q&A. >> Oh, look at the hand went up quick. >> Mostly asks Sky about the offensive things he said in the last 45 minutes. Hey, Mike's in charge. >> Oh, Mike's in charge. Um, hey, Esau. My wife and I don't have plans for Christmas. Do you want to [laughter] Do you want to If you're free, you're >> Sky. I got to wait to see what Sky says **[49:37]** about [laughter] >> and then >> if we all lived together, >> we could have a whole >> I live close enough to Esau where you could hypothetically walk to. >> I mean, yeah. I mean, I was I'm going to text you about >> Yeah, but sometimes it's >> Did you get my invitation? >> It's a bad network. >> No, I didn't get it. No. Did you send it in the mail? >> Yeah, but it might have been your old address. >> It's just funny how >> you keep offering to have us over and then it never >> Yeah, it doesn't get [laughter] >> I blame Trump. **[50:08]** >> I mean, >> that's the first time we said that name. >> Pretty good. There we go. >> The Holy Post is sponsored by Brooklyn Bedding. You need a bed. Everyone needs a bed. It took a while for me to learn how much of a difference a good mattress makes. [music] And now that our kids are grown up, they're figuring it out, too. And that's why we got our daughter a new queen-size mattress from Brooklyn Bedding. She loves it, and you will, too. Brooklyn Bedding. They've been around for 25 [music] years, and they're known for high-end comfort and quality without the high-end price. Pick your firmness, your height, your dimensions, **[50:38]** and get free shipping from their factory in Arizona. Upgrade to Cloud Pillow Top. It's like a pillow. That's a cloud on top. Try your new Brooklyn bedding mattress for [music] up to 120 nights. If you don't love it as much as we do, they'll help you return it or pick out a different one. You've got nothing to lose except a bad night's sleep. Go to [music] brooklyn betting.com and use our promo code holy post at checkout to get 30% off sitewide. This offer is not available anywhere else. You have to use our promo code on the very last page at checkout to get this discount. [music] **[51:09]** That's brooklyn betting.com and use our promo code Holy Post for 30% off sitewide. brooklyn betting.com promo code Holy Post. This episode of the Holy Post is sponsored by Rocket Money. I used to use an online money tracking service that I loved. It was simple, easy to use, and did exactly what I needed to help me keep on top of our spending. But then a bigger company bought it, apparently decided it was too [music] simple and easy, and shut it down. And for a few years, I wasn't tracking our money at all, which is not a great idea. And then I saw an ad for **[51:41]** Rocket Money. [music] It was like the old service I love, but even better. So, for the last few years, I've used Rocket Money to track our spending, create budgets, and even identify and cancel old subscriptions I was sending money to each month without knowing. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, [music] monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. Rocket Money's 5 million members have saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, with members saving up to $740 [music] **[52:11]** a year when they use all of the apps. premium features. It's simple, it's easy, and it just works. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with RocketMoney. [music] Go to rocketmoney.com/holypost today. That's rocketmoney.com/holyost. Rocketmoney.com/holyost. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. October 10th is [music] World Mental Health Day, and boy, I'm a little worried about the world's mental health. Wouldn't it be great to find someone who can help you on your own journey to **[52:42]** better mental health? BetterHelp therapists have helped [music] more than 5 million people worldwide. I like the fact that you can request a Christian therapist and that you can change therapists at any time until you find the person just right for you. [music] Lisa and I have really benefited from working with a Christian therapist from time to time, and I know you will, too. The right therapist can make a huge difference, and Better Help has been matching people with the right therapist for 12 years. This World Mental Health Day, we're celebrating the therapists who've helped millions of people take a **[53:14]** step forward. [music] If you're ready to find the right therapist for you, BetterHelp can help you start that journey. Holy Post listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com/holyost. That's betterhelp.com/holyost. >> All right, let's do some questions. Who has questions? We've got one right here. This question is for Mr. Fischer. Um, in Me myself and Bob, you talked about how pursuing your dream at some point became **[53:45]** more important to you than following God's leading. How do you now discern the difference between pursuing a God-given calling and chasing your own ambition? >> He came prepared. >> Okay, that is a good one. Um, a big part of it is knowing yourself enough to know where **[54:16]** you're wounded and where you're wounding may be driving what you think you want or what you think God wants for you. Um, you know, and I talk about this in in the book, but I, you know, I was a middle kid. Um, and my dad had walked out when I was nine and I had zero sense of who I was. But then I went to Disneyland and I loved it so much, you know, that that for me Disneyland became **[54:47]** what I was stuffing into the void where my dad had been, which made Walt kind of a benign deity because he created a world the way it was supposed to be. And that's what drove me. I wanted to be that. I wanted to do that. Um, and you know, when it all fell apart, it was, you know, when God really showed me you, I'd never asked you to do this. It was making you miserable. You're not wired that way. **[55:19]** You know, you're you're rolling a rock up a hill that I never asked you to to push. Um, and it's killing you. And so letting go of that basically needing to have the ability to let go of everything but God, you know, because if there's anything that I can't let go of other than God, that's an idol. >> Um, and that means and you know, and it's so easy to to put bad things in that box of got to let you know an idol, **[55:50]** you know, um, my my love of money. Oh, I should definitely let go of that. uh my love of family, you know, my my desire to do good in the world, my desire to help kids. Uh but to take all of that and be willing to live without any of it, you know, and just rest in your relationship with God, then you can get up in the morning and say, "Okay, God, what's what's bubbling today?" You know, where are you moving? Um and and so for a few months I would just would get **[56:22]** ideas and I would just write them down on a whiteboard and not do anything about them but just pray and then talk to people and then see what starts bubbling and then I I kind of describe how I was living then as chasing the bubbles, you know. So I'm not driving. I'm I'm following a trail of where I sense God moving ahead of me and and um completely deemphasizing the size of the impact of the undertaking. you know that if if and I I started to **[56:54]** picture in my head instead of Walt Disney I started picturing a happy monk tending a garden you know and not complaining that he's not you know changing the world or or the whole country or developing a new system of evangelism that can be franchised just tending a garden because that's what God put in front of him. So it I don't always do it well and I'm often cranky because I'm still like I wish this was going better. [laughter] It's a very I don't know how you get to **[57:25]** the point where you don't say I wish this was going better or faster or or something. U but it's just the ability to like when I get stressed typically it's because I'm hanging on to an outcome you know not hanging on to my savior. So identify the outcome that I'm hanging on to and pray to let it go, you know. So I don't know if that's an answer to your question, but that's that's all I've got. Mike. **[57:59]** >> All right. Great question. Who else? See hands. Oh my goodness. So many questions. Can I just say we're going to go way over here. It's my least favorite part of the job because I'm a people pleaser at heart and I have to reject so many people. who are raising their hands. But we're going to go right over here. >> I'm interested to see if you guys are wanting to explore the option of reading fan mail or fan voicemail on the podcast **[58:29]** moving forward. So maybe we can lower the demand of news of the butt when Caitlyn and Esau come on the podcast. >> There we go. >> Yeah. >> Next question. Yes, I maintain that if we like did an actually accurate poll, people would be on my side. >> We did a poll. >> Yeah. And it was Phil going around being like, "What do you think?" >> No, no, no. We did We did a survey, a a survey monkey thing or something. >> John is around here somewhere. **[58:59]** >> It was like a lot of people who liked it, but then there were a lot of people who didn't. Am I wrong? >> I don't There's a reason I don't have a microphone. [laughter] I >> Yeah, it was 5050. >> I'll start persuading. >> So, yeah. And I'm vice president, so I have the deciding vote when it's 50/50. >> It's actually kind of 50/50 up here. >> Yeah. >> I tolerate it. And I secretly really like it. >> It's not a secret. It's not a secret. >> Kaitlin, don't you think this is a **[59:30]** chance for you to practice being more curious? Why do some people like news of the butt? Maybe. What What can you learn from them? Uh, did you ask the children? >> I am not asking the children. >> No, >> children. Children. >> Any other questions? >> All right, next question. Next question. >> Children love it. Um, hi there. Uh, mostly for Kate, Caitlyn, but I could pose it to the whole group. Um, big year of transition for you. PhD done or almost done. >> I got a little wild, but thank you for **[60:01]** believing that. Yeah, [laughter] >> you go. Um, you moved across country. You're here in the Midwest. Welcome to Weaten. >> Is that true? >> Thank you. I live here now. Yeah. Yeah. >> You haven't invited me over >> commune. Um, so my friends and I were talking about this and what we really wanted to know is what do you think about the new Taylor Swift album? >> Um, >> that'll be the last question because this is going to go a while. This is **[60:32]** >> Did you just make this with your hand? >> Yeah. >> Someone actually invited you on their podcast to talk about this. >> Yeah. So, Esan and I did do an episode of his podcast where we talked about the Taylor Swift album. The [snorts] short answer is I really love it. I am not as big a fan of like really angsty lyrically meandering Taylor Swift as I am like fun and love pop Taylor Swift. Even just when I saw that this album was so much shorter, I was like, great. I **[61:04]** love her, but like my first few listens through Torture Post Department was like, "This is going on for a very long time. I like it, but it's really long." I'm a big fan of the new album, and I I think that's a hot take right now, but I still really like it. I have a few favorite songs, but I will listen to the whole thing other than canceled probably every time. >> But tell them about the part that you said about the love bit, like you and Taylor being at the same point. I do enjoy this album because I am in love at the same time as Taylor Swift. [laughter] I'm aware I'm aware that I do not have **[61:36]** an unbiased opinion about this album. And what I said on ESO's podcast that was true is the thing I relate to is that there have been I've been genuinely shocked at some of the people on the internet who have been like, I can't wait for the divorce album. >> She's a human being, first of all. Second of all, I just think both in the church and in the larger world, in our political world, especially right now, we think it is virtuous to just suffer by choice. Like to really **[62:06]** be so involved in what's happening politically that you have to prove that with a badge of honor by being like, I'm exhausted by the amount of news I have consumed. And if you're taking what's happening in the world seriously, you will be burdened by it 24/7. And I get why a like millionaire who fell in love with an NFL football player is not like a sympathetic story. [laughter] But I also think that our impulse to just go like it's more artistically or politically or spiritually significant or serious to be sad rather **[62:39]** than joyful isn't true. And it's actually a great Christian witness to say I can take seriously the suffering of the world and also I can find joy in the gifts that God has given me. And I read a little bit of a poem on Isa's [laughter] show if you want to hear the poem about this. But I just think the gist is like seriousness is not a fruit of the spirit, but joy is. >> And I find a lot of joy listening to Taylor Swift. [laughter] **[63:09]** [applause] >> Okay. Question. >> Wait, can I just say something? You just said seriousness is not a fruit of the spirit, but joy is. knew this was where this >> and I agree 100% which is why news of the butt is so good. >> Stop. >> I got the joy joy joy joy down in my butt. [laughter] >> Oh my. Okay. Uh we got time for a couple more. A couple more questions. Oh, right **[63:41]** here. Right here. >> Okay. So, I'm a senior in high school and I have to write a thesis of my choice. So, I've chosen to research what Christians should do with cultural representations of magic. Um, given the previous discussion about moral ambiguity in our cultural entertainment, I'm curious about whether or not a Christian should engage with c cultural representations of magic such as Harry Potter, Dungeons and Dragons, Pokemon, even Ouija boards, and how, if at all, they differ from uh the works of Lewis and Tolken. Are there boundaries we **[64:13]** should set? Uh should it be avoided entirely, etc.? >> This is your moment. You've been waiting your whole life for this question. [laughter] >> You You lost me a Ouija board. >> Yes, >> I listen. No, this is such a good question and I want to let them answer because I'm only like halfway through reading Harry Potter right now for the first time. But part of the reason I've never read it is because when I was a kid, I was not allowed My mom's going to listen to this. I was not allowed to read it as a kid. And then I also didn't read or watch Lord of the Rings because I was like there's not a difference. **[64:44]** They both have good and evil. They both have magic. They both And so when my parents who were very pro me reading or watching Lord of the Rings wouldn't let me read or watch Harry Potter, I was like >> no, I'm going to be totally consistent and not watch either. So now I have seen Lord of the Rings and I'm reading and watching Harry Potter. I don't have I'll let them answer the thoughts about the theology part, but I just say this to say your point is very good that there is we are not often thoughtful about why some of them have become sort of like Christian things that sort of just like fill Christian subculture and youth **[65:14]** groups and you know church and why some things are very controversial. There could be good reasons but we're not often very thoughtful about the reasons. Um, our parents, depends on your generation, but some of your parents grew up during the Satanic Panic >> in the 1980s. And it was heavily promoted that Satanism was all around us and you could bump into it and it could get on you. **[65:45]** And so when we looked at media and when we listened to music and we played the music backwards just to double check that there was no Satan in it, it it was it was like COVID 19 but with the devil. And so we all put on masks and hunkered down inside and then had children and they wanted to read Harry Potter or play Dungeons and Dragons or you know but it was it we in some cases you look at it now and say **[66:16]** that's so silly. What what do you mean it's it's just it's a story it's imaginary. When you understand the waters that the parents that that generation grew up in, it's not as surprising that there was a hyper sensitivity to uh not guilt by association but infection, you know, and and I still hear it in older generations of of, you know, can I can I watch that show and not be affected? Can I listen to that music and **[66:47]** not be affected or or infected? And that's a theologic and so then you know my generation then said oh that was so dumb I can watch or listen to anything and it will have no effect on me whatsoever and we go in the other direction you know I think it's more dangerous for kids to watch shows that have no moral bearing like no up and down you know that just nothing matters than to watch than to read Harry Potter which has such a **[67:18]** profoundly strong sense of morality and a fictitious view of magic. >> So I would say that I think I I agree with this part about Phil. The things that we watch and listen to and expose ourselves to do impact us and there's some music I just like I can't listen to this. There's nothing redemptive at all about this music or there's nothing interesting. But I have like I think that the the books that are written, the music that is composed are reflective of our culture. And so sometimes I enjoy **[67:50]** reading because I I I it is in fiction and in literature where people are asking questions. Sometimes people are just telling interesting story, but a lot of times they're asking interesting question about what it means to be human. And so if I want to understand the ways in which people are consuming or being shaped by what's happening to them, then it's important for me to read those things just informatively. It's interesting to me too that I'm going through this same quest as to mean what does it mean to be human? To pursue the good, the true, and the beautiful. And what I see in a lot of these um I'm sci **[68:21]** science fiction and fantasy is my favorite genre and I just find that they ask a lot of interesting theological questions there. And so for the most part I think that culture is always revealing itself through its art. And if we completely disengage from the art then we cease to be able to understand the culture. And so like the entire y'all can like the entire premise of like my podcast is that culture is always telling us something. So, let's look at this culture thing and and and see what's going on there. So, do I love Taylor Swift? **[68:52]** >> No. But is she revealing something about what it means to be a woman and the experiences of being a woman, even a successful woman in this moment? Does she are ask interesting questions? Yes, she does. So, if I just kind of go, no, I don't like Taylor because she curses too much in this album, then I'm missing an entire conversation. So, I'm pretty pro- cultural engagement. Now, Ouija board, you need to leave alone. [laughter] >> Yes. >> Six seven like the other way. **[69:22]** >> Yes. >> Okay. One thing you got to keep in mind here, why does scripture prohibit the Old Testament in particular? Why does it prohibit these practices? Astrology, necromancy, divination, witchcraft, >> tattoos. >> Yes, to a degree. It's because in the ancient world, these were practices that were employed to try to control the deities and to control God. How do I get the outcome I want guaranteed? How do I **[69:53]** know what's going to happen in the future? It's all predicated on fear and control. And the God of Israel comes along and said, "For my people, these practices are prohibited because I am not someone you can control. Number one, and number two, I have proven my love for you by rescuing you from Egypt. and I have committed myself in covenant to you and I will do good by you and I'm inviting you to trust me rather than try to control me. Once you understand that that is the heart of witchcraft and **[70:24]** magic and all these things. Okay, now let's fast forward to the satanic panic and to our environment today. I have said, if you've followed the show, you know I'm a huge fan of the Godfather movies. And in Godfather part two, Michael Corleó says, "You keep your friends close and you keep your enemies even closer." How stupid do you think the enemy of the church has to be to think that something as obvious as flatout witchcraft and Ouija boards and all that is going to be the real portal to the demonic. **[70:54]** >> If he has half a brain, he knows that the way to really get us is by masquerading as an angel of light. I am not concerned about Harry Potter. I am not concerned about Lord of the Rings or Dungeons and Dragons. I'm concerned about the thing that is masquerading as Christian that is giving you a means of trying to control God. If you want to know what's really magical and demonic, the prayer of Jabz. >> Oh, >> how about growing kids God's way? How **[71:26]** about guaranteed outcomes that if you just do X, Y, and Z, God is obligated to bless you and give you what you want. That is the modern depiction of demonic magic in the church. It's not these things that have horns and tails. You have to be more sophisticated at this and think like the enemy would. That's the goal of magic. [applause] **[71:56]** >> Should I cancel the magician? I was planning on He's an illusionist. [laughter] All right. Uh, that was great. Can we give a round of applause for our host? [applause] >> But we are not quite done yet because it's my favorite part of the night where we get to force you to play a game. >> Yay. >> All right. So, here are your note cards. >> Um, is anyone in the audience familiar with the game True Confessions? **[72:29]** >> Okay. Well, good. I wrote it. I came up with it. It was my idea. I definitely did not steal it from Jimmy Fallon. Okay. All right. So before the show, each of our hosts wrote down one truth and one lie. Each will take a turn and the other three will will pick either one or two. And the host will read that note card. And then the three will have 60 seconds to ask questions and try to to determine if what the original host read was a truth or a lie. Okay? So kind **[73:00]** of like two truths and a lie, but a little different. Does that make sense? We're on the same page. Does anyone want to go first? I'll go first since y'all hated on my um >> Hey, can you use your microphone? >> Yeah, I they don't need to hear me say I go first. They saw my hand go up. Okay, >> I'll go first. >> Wait, we got to pick a number. >> Okay, which one? >> Yeah. Do we vote? >> Okay, I vote for two. >> Sure. Two. >> Well, you don't just have to go along with me. >> That was the one where I just had one word and I hadn't decided what I was going to say. That was the wrong one. **[73:30]** Okay. Oh, here it goes. I was unc I got a concussion and I lost an hour of time before >> uh what were you what were you doing? Was it football? >> No, it was not football. >> Well, what was it? >> I fell off a fence. >> Why were you on the fence? >> Because in order to get into the fraternity, you had to fight through 20 people, climb over a 10ft fence, and go to the other side. And they pulled me off and I >> and you hit your head. >> So, what happened in the hour that you didn't have consciousness? I woke up and **[74:01]** I was in a car before the police pulled us over. >> Who were you with in the car? >> Um, seven other people. >> What are their names? >> I don't remember their names. >> Why did the c Why did the cop pull you over? >> I'm not sure I want to answer that question. [laughter] >> Driving while unconscious or driving while black? >> Actually, no. >> Believe it or not, it relates to you, Phil. Um, one of the people who were when I came conscious, one of the people who were on the other side of the car, um, **[74:31]** >> were they were, >> how do I say this? What's your favorite segment of the show? >> Ned the butt. >> Yeah. So, there was a I don't know. And so, they pulled us over. >> He was mooning someone out the side of the car. Someone was mooning outside. That was really I don't know why or how they got Were they taking you to the hospital? >> No, they just put me in the car. >> Unconious. >> Unconscious. Okay. Time. >> Yeah, >> I think he's telling the truth. >> I'm saying it's true. I think it's true also. >> That is indeed true. **[75:02]** >> I am on the Huntsville gang files because of that night. [laughter] >> If I ever get arrested, I get extra time was what they told me. But I was 18, so I think it's maybe expired at this point. >> All right, we gotating. >> Great. >> Yeah. >> Am I gone? >> Sure. >> Yeah, you're going next. >> One or two? >> We did two, so let's do one. >> One. I say one. >> Yeah. When I was 17, I spent part of my summer hurting cattle in the Australian outback. >> Why? **[75:32]** >> I was on a government student trip to Australia and New Zealand. And for part of the trip, I lived on a farm in the outback and I heard a cattle send you on a horseback. >> It was It was a long story. My dad signed me up for this trip to go overseas cuz he thought it would make me a man. What did you do with the cattle? What? Wait, what? >> What did you do with the cattle? What did you do with the cattle that made you a man? >> I It was a It was a cattle ranch and I had to help her the cattle. >> What did you do? >> I rode a horse and helped the cattle go. >> How did you hurt them? **[76:03]** >> Dogs. We had shepherd cattle dogs and I I meant I'm >> So you're on a horse directing dogs and a cattle. >> Believe it or not, I'm not bad on a horse. I took two semesters of equestrian in college. >> But you told the you told the dogs on the horse to tell the cows to do stuff. >> How? How did you communicate to the dogs? >> The cows know. >> So, what did you say to the dogs? What did you say to the dogs to do? >> Go get the things. Go get the get the cattle. >> You said to the dogs, "Go get the things." >> Let me tell you, the dogs are smarter than the people. >> Okay. Okay. >> Okay. >> I'm saying lie. **[76:34]** >> I think lie too. >> Lie. >> That is absolutely true. >> You did not say to the dogs, "Go do the thing." >> I heard about the government and your dad. >> Yeah. It's an or I don't The organization might still be around called people the people. I don't believe that you were hurting cattle with the dog. I think that's part of exaggerated what he did. Yeah, that's what I mean. A spin-off called People to Cattle, >> right? >> Right. >> So, you directed dogs to direct cattle. That part is true. >> There listen, there were people who ran this cattle ranch. >> Yes. >> They obviously did most of the work. **[77:05]** >> Okay. >> I just got to assist. >> Is there any evidence photographs? Yes. >> Okay. I want to see a picture. >> I want to see you pointing. >> Okay. Then I don't want to see it. I don't believe it. >> Okay. Okay. >> It's totally true. >> He beat us. >> Okay. Me, >> you're >> um Esau pick. >> Um one >> you chose. Will >> I have ghostritten a book for a Republican politician? **[77:36]** >> Who was it? >> Yeah. What politician? >> I can't I can't legally tell you that. >> You What publisher? >> McMillan. How long how did you interview the person first >> before signing the contract? And we're >> ready to Was was it a biography? What kind of book was it? Biography. >> It was a memoir. We we did lots of long Zoom and phone calls to talk through their life. And >> did you do it for the money or because you really believe in the politician? >> I was in the middle of seminary and I did not have any money. Also, Nancy French got me the connection and I was so excited. I hadn't really published **[78:07]** anything and I like didn't really know until I was halfway through what >> this politician was like. This was before the liturgy of politics. >> This was before the liturgy of politics. >> Is the person Has the person been convicted of a crime since you did the memoir? >> Not since I wrote it. No. No. >> Is this person still in elected office? >> They weren't in elected office by the time I wrote. >> So, you didn't do your job well is what you're saying. >> That's a good point. I don't know what their goal really was. >> If you told me their name, would I like judge you or would I kind of say that's not that bad? **[78:38]** >> Uh, you would judge me. >> Okay. [laughter] I I don't buy that. >> I You would have been what, 24? 25. >> I was 25. We're done with the questions, but yeah. >> Yeah, we're done with the questions. >> I know, but I say lie. >> I say lie. >> I'm trying to figure out when you met Nancy French because I feel like the timeline might be messed up there. So, I'm going to go based upon the Nancy French connection. >> The Nancy French Connection. [laughter] **[79:08]** >> That's the girl power sequel. >> It It is a lie. Yeah, >> she did. She did get me a connection to do this and I said no. >> But but it was it would have been more recent than like >> No, it was back then. >> Oh, it was back then. Okay, never mind. >> Wow. >> All right, I've got a one and I've got a two. >> Do you want to go with number one or do you want to go with number two? >> It's news of the butt. [laughter] Um, **[79:39]** you you picked number two. >> Is that what you pick? Okay. I once performed the cheeseburger song for Dolly Parton. >> I believe it already. Yeah, I think that's true. >> How did you wind up in the room with Dolly Parton? We just opened a Veggie Tails show at Dollywood and it was there for the debut weekend and Google and she came down to open the show and we got to meet her in the dressing room and she said, "Cheeseburger song is my favorite Veggie Tails song." And I sang it for her. >> And what did she say afterwards? **[80:12]** >> You would know what Donnie Parton said to your song. >> She said, "Bless your heart." [laughter] >> Got him. >> She said, "Bless your heart." >> You got him. You got He said, "I love it. That was great. Come on [laughter] over for some grace." >> Or he's like reverse psychologizing. >> What year would this would be? >> Would have been 999, maybe 99, maybe 2000. >> How did this How did the show go when you opened? >> Oh, it did pretty well. It did pretty well. We started at Silver Dollar City and then they moved it to Dollywood. **[80:42]** Then we did a roller coaster at Dollywood. There was a little Veggie Tales kids coaster at Dollywood. >> True. This is hard. >> I still say yes because I hope it's true. >> We all want it to be true. >> I want it to be true. >> What do you think he saw? >> I mean, yes. Except for I don't think Dolly Parton said bless your heart. But I think the rest [laughter] of that >> I don't remember what. >> Yeah. Yeah. I would I'm going to go true. >> I'll go true. **[81:12]** >> Are you going to go true? >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm very publicly true. >> That's a lie. Oh no. >> Everything in that story was true except singing a song for her. >> So you met her? >> Yeah. >> What did she say to you? >> Bless your heart. >> But she she said that Cheeseburger song is her favorite song. >> No. >> Oh, no. She didn't say that either. >> No, but on stage she saw the Bob the Tomato and Larry the Cucumber costumes and made a somewhat suggestive comment **[81:43]** about Larry the Cucumber. [laughter] >> She did not. It was real. It was I believe it was real subtle. >> I think those costumes are now at the No Kings protest. [laughter] >> Um, that's Holy Post Live. Thanks so much for coming. [applause] >> Hi kids, I'm Bob the Tomato. Like and subscribe. Don't sue me, Universal.