696: Transcending Our Political Divisions & Labels With Andy Beshear  ## Metadata - Author: [[The Holy Post]] - Full Title: 696: Transcending Our Political Divisions & Labels With Andy Beshear - Category: #podcasts - URL: https://share.snipd.com/episode/ef612abc-a064-4ae7-8d08-de7f3e4b72dc ## Document Notes ## Highlights - **From War To Pilgrimage** - David Brooks argues culture war healing requires shifting from war metaphors to pilgrimage metaphors that emphasize personal transformation. - Seeing people as fellow sojourners reveals shared struggles beneath ideological labels and reduces zero-sum thinking. Transcript: Phil Vischer He wrote a long piece in New York Times entitled How to Replace Christian Nationalism. So we're thinking about Christian nationalism. Lots of people are thinking about Christian nationalism. Yeah, but it's old and boring. Mike keeps talking about Christian nationalism. Sky delivered a sermon on Christian nationalism just yesterday as we record this. So it is on our minds. It is. David Brooks starts out. He said, a person's way of being human is the most authentic expression of their belief or unbelief. A person's life speaks more about their faith than what they think or say about God. He's quoting Czech sociologist, priest, and philosopher, Tomas Halek. I don't know how you pronounce that in Czech, but... Mike Erre That's a great... That's great. Hold on. I'll check. I get it. Oh, sorry. That's good. Phil Vischer These days, a pollster or a social scientist might call you up and ask some superficial questions and put you in a box like believer or a nun, a person without belief. Once you put people into categorical boxes, you were inviting them to see history as a zero sum conflict between this group and that one. Sorry, I'll turn off my notifications. Sorry, America. The part of America that likes us. Once you put people into categorical boxes, you're inviting them to see history as a zero-sum conflict between this group and that one. And sure enough, today we live in a political, cultural, and religious war between two impoverished armies. Okay? You following this, Mike Eary? I'm following two impoverished... Yeah, we're watching a battle between two impoverished armies. So eventually they'll all pass out, right? Being so impoverished. Does it mean they're malnourished or just... Anyway, on the one side are the Christian nationalists who practice a debauched form of their faith. It's about protecting us against them. Yes, I did. Thank you, Mike. It is about power more than love. It is about threat more than hope. It is rigid and pharisaical rather than personal and merciful. On the other side of our impoverished war are the exhausted remains of secular humanism. That humanism, that humanism, oh, that humanism, hey, that human you're a small language model i am a small language i am a thin language yeah yeah that's right started out trying to Liberate people from dogma but it has produced societies in which people feel alienated alienated naked and alone this is also a tv show it has failed to formulate a shared moral order That might help people find meaning and solidarity in their lives. So, David Brooks says, when I read Halleck's passage, the one that you really see someone's belief in their life, not in their words, which is not an uncommon position. Skye Jethani I don't think it's original. Phil Vischer I don't think Halleck came up with this. David Brooks says, I immediately glimpsed a way out of this stale and life-deforming culture war. Halleck's passage reminds us of what matters most. To get a little preachy. This is David Brooks saying that, not me. It's not the propositions that come out of our mouths, but the care that flows from our hearts. It's how we each try to fulfill the task of being human. There you go. All done. Goodbye. See you later. Drive safe. Be kind. Rewind. The energy that animates the world emerges from the human depths, from the mysterious regions where passions form. When you look at people only at the shallow level of their stated beliefs, you see ideologies that are likely to clash. But when you look down into the depths, you see struggling people in all camps wrestling with impulsions they can barely control or understand. He says, I have lived through decades of non-belief and now more than a decade of belief. In both phases, I ached, like most people, for a transformation of the heart, to gradually be a better person deep inside, to gradually be a better presence in the world. Coming to faith didn't sate these longings. If anything, it has inflamed them. So, seen in this light, and this is where he's kind of getting, he's presenting his thesis. Seen in this light, we're not warriors clashing. We're sojourners exploring. If we're going to get out of this nasty age of ours, we're going to have to see the world through pilgrimage metaphors instead of war metaphors. So Jesus calls us to follow him. That's a journey, Halleck argues. You can choose to live your life in warfare in the trenches going nowhere. Culture warriors are static and their certainties are terrifying. But people who see themselves as pilgrims know they are unfinished. They know they are still on a journey that will change them. So, says David Brooks, I'm looking for a form of Christianity that is more attractive and compelling than Christian nationalism, and which we can use to pry people away from that nationalism. Is this what we can find in the wisdom of people like Halleck, a better way to be faithful in the world? ([Time 0:16:45](https://share.snipd.com/snip/5b88747f-6264-4eca-970a-295c4e5e7927)) - **Depth Over Labels** - Looking beneath stated beliefs shows people's lives and actions reveal deeper faith or unbelief more than slogans. - That depth invites humility, pluralism, and mutual learning across traditions. Transcript: Skye Jethani I don't think it's original. Phil Vischer I don't think Halleck came up with this. David Brooks says, I immediately glimpsed a way out of this stale and life-deforming culture war. Halleck's passage reminds us of what matters most. To get a little preachy. This is David Brooks saying that, not me. It's not the propositions that come out of our mouths, but the care that flows from our hearts. It's how we each try to fulfill the task of being human. There you go. All done. Goodbye. See you later. Drive safe. Be kind. Rewind. The energy that animates the world emerges from the human depths, from the mysterious regions where passions form. When you look at people only at the shallow level of their stated beliefs, you see ideologies that are likely to clash. But when you look down into the depths, you see struggling people in all camps wrestling with impulsions they can barely control or understand. He says, I have lived through decades of non-belief and now more than a decade of belief. In both phases, I ached, like most people, for a transformation of the heart, to gradually be a better person deep inside, to gradually be a better presence in the world. Coming to faith didn't sate these longings. If anything, it has inflamed them. So, seen in this light, and this is where he's kind of getting, he's presenting his thesis. Seen in this light, we're not warriors clashing. We're sojourners exploring. If we're going to get out of this nasty age of ours, we're going to have to see the world through pilgrimage metaphors instead of war metaphors. So Jesus calls us to follow him. That's a journey, Halleck argues. You can choose to live your life in warfare in the trenches going nowhere. Culture warriors are static and their certainties are terrifying. But people who see themselves as pilgrims know they are unfinished. They know they are still on a journey that will change them. ([Time 0:19:40](https://share.snipd.com/snip/745f9bf3-eb7f-4a24-a77e-fbde67ab5908)) - **Start By Listening To Fears** - Ask deeper questions to uncover the fears driving someone's political views and affirm legitimate concerns first. - Build trust by connecting on shared instincts, then introduce Christian calls to love and not fear. Transcript: Skye Jethani No, I would start out with that. With the person you're describing. Walk into a bar? No, with the person you're describing, I would try to begin by asking deeper and deeper questions about their fears and what those fears are really rooted in. And if they come to a place of, I'm concerned about the security of my family, or I'm concerned that the faith that I find so important and valuable will not be allowed to be transmitted To the people I love. Okay, that's legitimate. That's not legitimate necessarily, but it's a noble idea that I think you are projecting onto your neighbors in an unhealthy way. So you find something to affirm there, even if you don't affirm the way in which they are expressing it. And if you can find a commonality, like, yes, I believe in the value of my Christian faith as well. And yes, I want my children and family to be able to practice that faith freely in this country. And those are all good things. And so you build trust by affirming their core instinct and desire. But then hopefully as you build that trust, you can point out how Christ calls us to not be afraid. He calls us to love even our enemies. And oh, by the way, those people that you think are a threat, Jesus sees as an opportunity to show love. ([Time 0:35:41](https://share.snipd.com/snip/83f2c874-d82d-4455-8a8f-425c054cd724)) - **Practice Hospitality Intentionally** - Create structured, cross-cutting encounters (like assigned meals) so people meet neighbors who voted differently. - Frame gatherings as practicing hospitality modeled on the Lord's Supper to build empathy and trust. Transcript: Mike Erre We celebrate the Lord's Supper every weekend and we announce you're sitting next to people who voted differently than you. And so we all come as gift recipients rather than as people who've got the right to name who belongs and who doesn't but then we break that into smaller like we do a once a month thing called The table where people open up their homes to each other we actually arrange who goes where so you're getting people that you don't know and you're getting people that ish i mean you can Request to go with a friend or two but in terms of where you go and who else you're with, that's something we assign. And we just frame it as, listen, the job here is to practice the same hospitality we receive from the Lord at his table to now practice that with each The other thing, and Sky is cooking On this, there's no frontal assault in terms of just arguing or transference of memes or counter examples that can go at somebody's deep fear of change, of loss, of disappointment, Of grieving a nation that used to exist, maybe even just ideally and not in reality. And so you cannot ever just go directly at that stuff. And that's what I think Brooks is saying in terms of how we posture ourselves. Inviting others in to our journey, I think, is another way to do that as well. I'm a pilgrim too. I don't have it all figured out. Let's work on this together. And I just think there are ways to posture ourselves that come from a place of graciousness and compassion. ([Time 0:38:11](https://share.snipd.com/snip/158b7c3f-a2a5-4319-9ed0-d314049f8c43)) - **Institutional Courage In The Catholic Church** - U.S. Catholic bishops publicly rebuked dehumanizing immigration rhetoric despite many Catholic voters backing Trump. - Institutional distance from partisan pressures can enable moral leadership. Transcript: Phil Vischer Oh, last week, the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops issued a special message on immigration that was an unmistakable rebuke of the Trump administration and its cruel And punitive immigration crackdown. The conference said, we're disturbed when we see among our people a climate of fear and anxiety around questions of profiling and immigration enforcement. We're saddened by the state of contemporary debate and the vilification of immigrants. The bishop said they also opposed the indiscriminate mass deportation of people and prayed for an end to dehumanizing rhetoric and violence, whether directed at immigrants or at Law enforcement. So the Catholic bishops are doing something that not a whole lot of prominent leaders seem to be willing to do. They've been heavily encouraged to do this, actually kind of called out to do this by our new Pope, our new Chicago hot dog Pope, Pope Leo. Hot dog? He likes hot dogs. Does he? He's from Chicago. I'm from Chicago. No, you're not. Skye Jethani Well, I leave the gun. Phil Vischer You're from the suburbs. Skye Jethani Fine, but my multiple generations of Chicagoans in my family have been here for a long time. Phil Vischer Then you should like Chicago hot dogs a little more. Skye Jethani I don't dislike them, but I wouldn't identify myself as... Phil Vischer And Chicago baseball. Anywho, it's impressive that the Catholic Church is in a position globally where they're not nearly as influenced by the winds of political tides. And it's one of the ways you start to see the weakness of the fragmentation of Protestantism in America is that no one seems collectively able to stand against what the people in the pews Might be thinking given day. Skye Jethani And that's the key here, because what's really most interesting, I think, about this is the majority of American Catholics voted for Donald Trump. But the leaders of the Catholic church are saying, we don't care if most of our people voted for this guy. What he's doing is contrary to the way of Christ. We're going to call him out on it. And I think it's for the reason you said, because it's a global church, not just an American church. ([Time 0:45:43](https://share.snipd.com/snip/300f8f4f-7103-4f5d-9f59-add739f0c857)) - **Faith And Results Win In Red States** - Andy Beshear is a popular Democratic governor in a deep-red state by emphasizing faith, humility, and pragmatic results. - His example shows faith-forward messaging plus bread-and-butter governance can win across partisan divides. Transcript: Skye Jethani Increasingly, Republican voters are moving to red states and Democratic voters are moving into blue cities and states, making the red parts of the country more red and blue parts more Blue, with fewer purple communities where people actually interact with and know those from different political parties. Adding to this problem is partisan gerrymandering, which ensures that what diversity does exist in a state doesn't actually get reflected by who's elected there. Amid all of this polarization, Governor Andy Beshear is an anomaly. He's a Democratic governor of a very red state, and a popular one too. Donald Trump won Kentucky by 30 points in 2024, but Governor Beshear also won re-election there by five points, a relative landslide for a Democrat in the South. Beshear is also an elder at his church and comfortable talking about his Christian faith, something many other Democrats have struggled with as evidenced by the widening God gap among Voters. All of these unusual qualities have put Governor Bashir on the shortlist for the presidency in 2028. I had a chance to talk to him about how he's managed to be so popular in a very red state, what lessons he thinks the Democratic Party needs to learn from their recent losses, and what role Faith should play in our political discourse as a country. Here is my conversation with Governor Andy Beshear. Governor Beshear, welcome to The Holy Post. Thanks for having me. I'm delighted you're here. You are something of a unicorn in the Democratic Party. You are a Democratic governor of a red state, a very red state. Kentucky voted for Donald Trump in this last election, I think, by 30 points. And at a time when your party has unprecedented levels of unfavorable opinion of it in the country, you remain, I think, the most popular Democratic governor in the country. ([Time 0:52:32](https://share.snipd.com/snip/ce76088d-5d31-4898-bc62-80df5bd20a20)) - **Focus On 80% That Matters** - Spend 80% of political time on issues that matter to everyone: jobs, healthcare, roads, and safety. - Speak plainly about real impacts (e.g., "people going hungry") instead of sanitized policy language. Transcript: Andy Beshear And for me, it's really it's three parts. The first thing that Democrats have to do is spend 80 percent of our time on things that matter to 100 percent of the American people. Those are things like your job and whether you can support your family. They're your next doctor's appointment for yourself, your parents, or your kids. The roads and bridges you drive each day, the school you drop your kids off at, and whether you feel safe in your community. And when we get results there, we don't move a state or a country to the right or the left. We just move it forward for everyone. Second thing that we've got to do is get back to talking like normal human beings. Now talk to people and not at them. Make sure that the language we use isn't overly sanitized. You know, in Kentucky, we've gotten hit by the drug epidemic harder than just about anyone. We've all lost people. I didn't lose one to substance use disorder. I lost them all to addiction. You know, you hear the word addiction. It's mean. It's nasty. It takes people from us that we love. Or when people get through it, when they get into recovery, you know, thank God, they deserve credit for going up against that challenge that many of us could not even imagine. I'll give you another one. Right now, you're seeing Donald Trump refuse to pay full SNAP benefits. We're not going to win that argument by talking about food insecurity. We're going to win it by talking about people going hungry, which is the reality. You know, seniors not being able to sleep because they're hungry. Kids not being able to pay attention in school because they're hungry. So number one, 80% of our time on things that matter to 100% of the American people, none of those are political at all. ([Time 0:55:12](https://share.snipd.com/snip/c42e649f-b5d9-48d1-9b93-94af1465f6f7)) - **Show Local Proof Of Progress** - Show tangible local evidence of policy wins (mailers linking projects to a county) and own the results. - Micro-target messaging to make national investments feel personal and visible. Transcript: Andy Beshear You got to remind them. And so we'd start talking about, what about the two huge battery plants? And somebody would say, oh, wasn't that over $5 billion? And then we'd talk a little bit more. Then you got a micro target too. You've got to show people something that they can feel and touch and see. And so I think about something as small as a mailer that we did. We had a mailer that on the front part was our overall jobs message. We brought in more than anybody else. But on the other side was an announcement from their county. And we have 120 counties. It was something that they could drive by and see, because people don't believe politicians when they're talking about new opportunities that have been brought in. You've got to show them, and you've got to own it. They've got to see that their life is actually getting better. ([Time 1:02:11](https://share.snipd.com/snip/368635d9-afd2-4122-8e55-34966738fef1)) - **Different Styles, Same Fight** - Beshear argues Democratic fight should be principled but varied in style; healing requires kindness and welcoming voters back. - He warns against mirroring MAGA tactics and favors authentic leadership over stunts. Transcript: Andy Beshear I believe all our Democratic governors are fighting, but we all do it in our own style. I mean, I filed lawsuit after lawsuit against this Trump administration, even coming from a state that Trump won overwhelmingly. I sued him over his refusal to pay SNAP benefits, and we got a ruling for at least partial SNAP benefits. And I'll tell you, I had employees that came in at 9 p.m. At night when we got that ruling, worked until 3 a.m. So that people have dollars on their EBT card the next day and would not go hungry. That was pretty special. And people should give some credit to federal and state employees who go above and beyond to make things happen. Gavin deserves a lot of credit for Prop 50. I wish we didn't have to do it, but if Texas is going to change the rules of the game, then we've all got to play by them. And Gavin's approach generates a lot of energy. But what I'd say is it's just not me. Everybody has got to lead in their authentic way. And my goal isn't just to win in the future, which we've got to, to move on from the Trump administration. We've got to heal the country. And for that, at least in my style, I don't judge voters. I will judge this president. And when you're president, you're going to be judged and you're going to be criticized. But you've got to have room, and whether that's in the Democratic Party or how people will vote, to welcome people back in. In my mind, our country needs our McCarthyism moment, where we take a breath and people realize, OK, that went too far. And then and then they come back together because the post Trump America can't be as divided as it is right now. ([Time 1:05:00](https://share.snipd.com/snip/9d706663-d3ef-43e1-9e66-9221d53f3e6a)) - **Talk Faith As Your 'Why'** - Beshear encourages Democrats to speak openly about faith as an authentic 'why' for policy, linking compassion to governance. - Faith-rooted messaging can reconnect the party with religious voters when communicated sincerely. Transcript: Andy Beshear Think for the longest time, people in my party were scared to talk about faith, were worried that it would be viewed negatively, I guess, within or by the pundits. But I think that was a huge mistake because if your faith is your authentic why, you're not being real with people without talking about it. And when you look at the different policies of the Democratic Party, you look at trying to lift people up. You look at the parable of the Good Samaritan. Would Donald Trump stop and help that person on the side of the road? Or would he kick them while he's down? I mean, for me, faith isn't just about talking about it. It's trying to live it. And just look at the government shutdown that it looks like we're about to come out of. I mean, the congressional Republicans will not vote to extend ACA tax credits, which means people are going to lose their health care. You know, Jesus said a doctor's for the sick, but now a lot of people who are sick aren't going to be able to see a doctor. Look at the Trump administration going above and beyond to refuse to fund SNAP benefits, even though a court said that they could. You know, the miracle of the fishes and loaves is in every book of the gospel, meaning it's pretty darn important. I talk about it because it is my why, but Democrats need to stop being scared to talk about their authentic why. And if it's faith, grab a hold of it, live by it, communicate through it, make sure you spread the good news with the world. ([Time 1:07:25](https://share.snipd.com/snip/5655141b-a8ec-44ae-916a-5210acef6f21))