701 Mailbag! Decompressing, Demonology, & Dreams for 2026

701: Mailbag! Decompressing, Demonology, & Dreams for 2026 🔗 **Source:** [701: Mailbag! Decompressing, Demonology, & Dreams for 2026](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1am4vetvTs) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [christianity, theology, podcast] > author: The Holy Post > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1am4vetvTs > date created: 2024-12-30 10:00 > > # 🏷️ Title: Mailbag! Decompressing, Demonology, & Dreams for 2026 >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Develop better questions about Christian ethics without Christianity — 05:10 #theology - [H2] Explore new creation limitations and storytelling — 18:45 #eschatology - [H3] Research first century gift economies for grace discussion — 31:20 #biblical-studies ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [The Holy Post](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1am4vetvTs) ## 📝 Summary - The Holy Post hosts answer audience questions in their year-end mailbag episode - Topics include Christian ethics, storytelling in heaven, political interviews, and theological controversies - The hosts discuss personal growth, decompression methods, and cultural commentary - Technical theological discussions about grace, demons, and new creation - Reflects the podcast's blend of serious theology with humor and practical application ## 📖 Main Content This mailbag episode demonstrates The Holy Post's characteristic approach of combining serious theological discussion with humor and personal reflection. The hosts tackle complex questions about Christian ethics, eschatology, and demonology while maintaining their conversational tone. Key themes include the relationship between Christian teachings and ethical systems, the nature of stories and conflict in new creation, and the evolution of demonology between the Old and New Testaments. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/u1am4vetvTs?t=0) — [H1] Opening and Christmas greetings - Key idea: Final new episode of 2025, transitioning to mailbag format - Evidence: "This is our last new episode of the year" #### ⏱️ [02:30](https://youtu.be/u1am4vetvTs?t=150) — [H2] VeggieTales character assignment question - Key idea: Phil explains the challenge of creating female vegetable characters - Evidence: "Little girls don't want to think of themselves as round vegetables" #### ⏱️ [05:10](https://youtu.be/u1am4vetvTs?t=310) — [H1] Christian ethics without Christianity debate - Key idea: Other ethical systems share truths with Christianity through general revelation - Evidence: "The things that are true about other ethical systems they share with what is true of Christianity" #### ⏱️ [09:45](https://youtu.be/u1am4vetvTs?t=585) — [H2] Western ethics and Christian foundations - Key idea: Tom Holland's argument that western ethics largely derive from Christian thought - Evidence: "All the things we consider ethical in the western world owe Christianity and Judaism their foundations" #### ⏱️ [12:20](https://youtu.be/u1am4vetvTs?t=740) — [H2] Christian political systems and fallenness - Key idea: Systems work better when built on accurate anthropology of human fallenness - Evidence: "An accurate view of humanity leads to better government than idealized vision" #### ⏱️ [15:30](https://youtu.be/u1am4vetvTs?t=930) — [H1] Stories and conflict in heaven - Key idea: New creation will have struggle without sinful conflict - Evidence: "Struggle will still exist, just won't be sinful kind of struggle" #### ⏱️ [18:45](https://youtu.be/u1am4vetvTs?t=1125) — [H2] Limitations and competition in new creation - Key idea: Finite creatures will still have limitations enabling meaningful narratives - Evidence: "We will still be finite creatures with limitations" #### ⏱️ [21:15](https://youtu.be/u1am4vetvTs?t=1275) — [H2] Republican politicians and podcast invitations - Key idea: No current Republican politicians have requested to appear on the show - Evidence: "We have not had any currently elected Republican politicians ask to be on our show" #### ⏱️ [24:30](https://youtu.be/u1am4vetvTs?t=1470) — [H1] Sky's transformation from negative to hopeful - Key idea: Shift from shock and anger to faithful counterculture approach - Evidence: "The angry, upset posture isn't helping anything or anyone" #### ⏱️ [27:45](https://youtu.be/u1am4vetvTs?t=1665) — [H3] Self-reliance and tire changing - Key idea: All hosts except Caitlyn can change their own tires - Evidence: "I've been changing tires since before Caitlin was born" #### ⏱️ [31:20](https://youtu.be/u1am4vetvTs?t=1880) — [H1] Free gift of salvation explained - Key idea: Grace opposes earning but not effort in Christian life - Evidence: "Grace is opposed to earning, not opposed to effort" #### ⏱️ [34:50](https://youtu.be/u1am4vetvTs?t=2090) — [H2] Impactful secular movies and books - Key idea: Many secular works contain profoundly Christian themes - Evidence: "Les Misérables is an entire exploration of law versus grace" #### ⏱️ [38:10](https://youtu.be/u1am4vetvTs?t=2290) — [H2] Decompression methods after heavy topics - Key idea: Each host has different strategies for processing difficult content - Evidence: "I go to a coffee shop and sit quietly by myself for an hour" #### ⏱️ [41:30](https://youtu.be/u1am4vetvTs?t=2490) — [H1] Demons and fallen angels theology - Key idea: Demons may be spirits of Nephilim rather than fallen angels - Evidence: "The book of Enoch says Nephilim spirits roam the earth as demons" ## 📚 References - [Tom Holland - Dominion](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/43568709-dominion) - [Dallas Willard writings on grace and effort](https://dwillard.org/) - [Book of Enoch - apocryphal text](https://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - The Holy Post team believes Christian ethics provide the strongest foundation for moral behavior, though other systems can contain truth through general revelation - Stories in the new creation will involve struggle and discovery without sinful conflict, as finite beings explore an infinite reality - The hosts have evolved toward more hopeful engagement rather than perpetual critique, focusing on faithful counterculture witness ## 📰 Newsletter Looking for thoughtful Christian discourse that balances serious theology with genuine humor? The Holy Post's year-end mailbag demonstrates why this podcast has become essential listening for many believers seeking nuanced faith discussions. Key highlights include fascinating theological explorations about ethics, eschatology, and demonology, plus personal insights into how Christian content creators process difficult topics while maintaining hope. The conversation about Christian ethics particularly stands out—rather than claiming exclusivity on moral truth, the hosts argue that Christian foundations provide the most robust framework for ethical systems, while acknowledging truth exists in other traditions through general revelation. Resources: [The Holy Post](https://holypost.com/), [World Relief](https://worldrelief.org/), [Glorify App](https://glorify-app.com/) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer education: Create theological discussion frameworks for complex topics - Community management: Model respectful disagreement in polarized environments - Content strategy: Balance serious topics with humor for audience engagement #### Community - Maintainers: Develop guidelines for handling controversial theological topics - Contributors: Encourage diverse perspectives while maintaining doctrinal boundaries - Ecosystem: Foster cross-denominational dialogue on ethical foundations #### WordPress - Community: Apply theological discussion models to technical disagreements - Training: Develop workshops on maintaining civility in heated debates - Documentation: Create guides for respectful discourse in community forums #### The WPCC - Programs: Design fellowship opportunities around ethical technology use - Funding: Support projects that bridge secular and religious communities ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Christian theological frameworks provide more robust foundations for ethical systems than purely secular alternatives - Storytelling in eschatological contexts requires reimagining conflict as discovery rather than antagonism - Content creators maintain better mental health through deliberate decompression practices after difficult topics - Audience engagement increases when serious topics are balanced with appropriate humor ### 📊 Methodology - Comparative analysis of ethical systems across religious and secular traditions - Historical study of theological development between Old and New Testaments - Content analysis of successful educational podcasts balancing serious and light material ### ❓ Questions - How do we maintain intellectual humility while defending particular theological positions? - What practical frameworks help distinguish between earning salvation and working it out? - How can Christian media better engage political figures across the spectrum? ### 🔮 Future Research - Investigate intertestamental period development of demonology - Explore applications of Christian ethical frameworks in contemporary policy - Study audience psychology of serious content mixed with humor ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Regular decompression essential for those processing heavy content - Education: Complex theology can be made accessible through conversational formats - Community: Shared vulnerability builds stronger audience connection - Policy: Theological anthropology should inform government design ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 8th-9th grade (conversational podcast format) #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: YouTube video format with host interactions - Improve: Add theological concept diagrams, historical timelines #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Primary audio format with engaging vocal delivery - Improve: Varied vocal pacing for complex concepts #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Rich analogies, clear definitions, conversational examples - Improve: More systematic terminology explanations #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Interactive Q&A format, practical applications - Improve: Companion worksheets for theological concepts #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Structured arguments, cause-effect relationships - Improve: Clearer logical frameworks for complex topics #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Community questions, multiple perspectives - Improve: Live Q&A sessions, group discussion guides #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Individual reflection prompts embedded in discussion - Improve: Companion journaling questions #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Organic conversation flow, real-world connections - Improve: More creation theology applications ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear audio hierarchy, speaker identification - Improve: Descriptive show notes with speaker attribution #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard YouTube controls - Improve: Detailed chapter markers for topic navigation #### Contrast and readability - Present: Good video contrast in studio setup - Improve: High contrast transcript options #### Media and captions - Present: YouTube auto-captions available - Improve: Professional transcript with theological term accuracy ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Multi-denominational Christian perspectives - Improve: More international theological voices #### Inclusive language - Present: Gender-neutral references where appropriate - Improve: More consistent inclusive pronoun usage #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Clear topic transitions, varied pacing - Improve: Content warnings for heavy topics #### Representation - Present: Mixed gender hosting team - Improve: Greater ethnic and age diversity in perspectives ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Theological arguments generally well-structured - Inductive strength: Good use of historical examples - Causal reasoning: Clear connections between theological foundations and ethical outcomes - Analogical strength: Effective use of VeggieTales and movie parallels #### Fallacies - Appeal to authority: Some reliance on scholarly consensus without detailed argument - False dilemma: Occasionally presents binary choices where spectrum exists #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Conversational, humble, occasionally self-deprecating, genuinely curious ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - No problematic patterns detected - Hosts acknowledge limitations and mistakes - Genuine engagement with challenging questions - Appropriate vulnerability and transparency ## 🎯 Conclusion This mailbag episode exemplifies The Holy Post's strength in making complex theological concepts accessible while maintaining intellectual rigor. The hosts demonstrate that serious faith discussions can include humor and personal vulnerability without compromising substance. Their approach to controversial topics—from Christian ethics to demonology—models how to engage difficult questions with both confidence and humility, offering valuable frameworks for Christian discourse in polarized times. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad ### [H1] Christian ethics emerge from theological foundations > [!quote] [Mailbag! Decompressing, Demonology, & Dreams for 2026](https://youtu.be/u1am4vetvTs) by [[The Holy Post]] via [[YouTube]]. Published 2024-12-30. Accessed 2024-12-30. > "If you don't believe Jesus actually rose from the dead, I think Christian ethics are on a weaker foundation." Sky argues that theological beliefs provide stronger grounding for ethical systems than purely philosophical approaches. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/u1am4vetvTs?t=310#H1) #xref #articleseed ID:rw_001 ### [H2] New creation involves finite struggle without sin > [!quote] [Mailbag! Decompressing, Demonology, & Dreams for 2026](https://youtu.be/u1am4vetvTs) > "We will still be finite creatures with limitations. With those limitations come struggle." Caitlyn explains how eschatological hope doesn't eliminate meaningful challenge and discovery. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/u1am4vetvTs?t=1125#H2) #xref ID:rw_002 ### [H1] Grace opposes earning not effort > [!quote] [Mailbag! Decompressing, Demonology, & Dreams for 2026](https://youtu.be/u1am4vetvTs) > "Grace is opposed to earning. It's not opposed to effort." Sky clarifies the theological distinction between unmerited gift and ongoing discipleship requirements. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/u1am4vetvTs?t=1880#H1) #xref ID:rw_003 --- ### 🔖 Atomic Split Pad (Zettel Candidates) #### [Z1] Theological anthropology improves governmental design - Accurate view of human fallenness leads to better political systems - Reference to founding generation and Tracy Mackenzie's work - Links: [[Christian-Political-Theory]] [[Anthropology]] #### [Z2] Secular works often contain Christian themes - Movies like Les Misérables explore law versus grace - Art transcends explicit religious categorization - Links: [[Cultural-Apologetics]] [[Narrative-Theology]] #### [Z3] Content creators need decompression strategies - Processing heavy topics requires intentional mental health practices - Each person develops different recovery methods - Links: [[Mental-Health]] [[Content-Creation]] --- ### ✏️ Fleeting Queue - [F1] Research Book of Enoch influence on New Testament demonology — theological studies #fleeting #research - [F2] Explore Tom Hollan --- ## Full Transcript [00:00] Welcome to the Holy Post. We've reached [00:02] the end of 2025, so we thought it's a [00:04] good time to answer questions from the [00:06] Holy Post community. Today, Phil, [00:08] Caitlyn, and I cover a wide assortment [00:10] of issues, from how we decompress after [00:12] a difficult podcast to how we pick which [00:15] politicians to interview. We also talk [00:17] about our favorite movies and who's the [00:19] best at changing attire. We tackle [00:21] theological questions about the nature [00:23] of grace, the limitations we still have [00:25] in the new creation, and why demons may [00:28] not be fallen angels. We also give our [00:30] predictions for 2026. Along the way, [00:33] Phil has some weird ideas about hair. I [00:36] talk about being a mango, and Caitlyn [00:38] makes a big announcement. Before we jump [00:40] in, I just want to express my gratitude [00:42] to everyone who's tuned into our [00:44] content, and especially the Holy Post [00:46] Plus subscribers who've made it all [00:47] possible. With their support, we've been [00:49] able to create more shows, more videos, [00:52] and host more events in 2025 than ever [00:55] before. Thank you for being part of this [00:57] journey with us and for making the Holy [00:59] Post media community an oasis of hope [01:01] and humor when so much of the church [01:03] seems captivated by despair on one side [01:06] and deception on the other. Here is [01:08] episode 701. [01:11] Hey there. Merry Christmas. Welcome to [01:15] Is this our last episode of the year? Uh [01:17] the last new episode, [01:18] >> the last new episode of the year. Next [01:21] week we'll be airing an old episode. So [01:23] look forward to that. That'll be very [01:25] exciting. [01:26] >> A Holy Post Plus exclusive episode we [01:28] are giving people a chance to listen to. [01:30] >> There you go. [01:31] >> That's what I meant to say. I meant to [01:33] say what Mike said cuz that's correct. [01:37] And I was wrong. But we're here. [01:40] >> Skye's here. Hi. Hi Sky. [01:43] >> Hi. I'm still here. [01:45] >> I only get one hi. And that's it. [01:47] >> Okay. And if if comes ahead, I'm then [01:49] I'm just out. And Caitlyn, who I will [01:51] not use her middle name. [01:53] >> Oh, thank you, Phil. [01:54] >> Yeah. Hi, Kaitlyn. [01:55] >> Hi. [01:56] >> Hi. Those of you watching on YouTube are [01:58] probably going to notice. Hey, Caitlyn's [01:59] hair is straight. What's going on? [02:01] >> I didn't know this was going to be so [02:03] exciting for everyone, but everyone [02:05] today has commented on it. [02:06] >> It's noticeable. [02:07] >> I don't think I have. [02:08] >> Thank you. You avoid hair. I notice. I [02:11] just I don't tend I try to avoid [02:14] commenting on women's appearances. [02:16] randomly. [02:17] >> Oo. Are you even an American? [02:21] >> I'm a little offended that you never [02:22] talk about my hair, Phil. [02:24] >> I think we've talked about your hair. [02:25] >> I was going to say we've actually talked [02:26] about your head. [02:27] >> The lack of it. [02:28] >> Yeah. Yeah. In fact, we had the Holy [02:30] Post Christmas party just a few days ago [02:33] >> and you and one other gentleman who is [02:36] older and myself spent some time talking [02:39] about what happens to body hair as you [02:41] get old as a male. [02:43] >> That was fun. Glad I was not there for [02:45] that part. [02:46] >> I don't think whatever. [02:47] >> My wife was there and she found it [02:48] hilarious. She I'm glad. [02:50] >> Thought it was quite amusing. [02:53] >> Uhhuh. Yeah. Hair gets longer and more [02:55] random. [02:56] >> It's like why is there a 2-in hair [02:58] there? [03:00] >> On the back of your shoulder. [03:01] >> I'm so glad to know this. [03:03] >> Yeah. I don't know if it hap I don't [03:04] think it happens to women. [03:05] >> Okay. [03:06] >> You get random twoinch hairs in random [03:08] places. [03:08] >> I don't need to explore that. I don't [03:10] think [03:10] >> No, but it's Christmas. [03:14] And now it's time for the theme song. [03:18] >> What's the news that you like the most? [03:22] Who's your favorite podcast host? If [03:25] it's breakfast, get your toast. It's [03:27] Sky, Caitlyn, and the Holy Post. Sky, [03:31] Caitlyn, and the Holy Post and sometimes [03:35] other people. [03:40] This episode is sponsored by Glorify, [03:42] the number one Christian daily [03:44] devotional app. Don't know if you knew [03:46] this, but May is mental health awareness [03:48] month. There are a lot of little things [03:50] you can do to improve your mental health [03:52] this year. And the Glorify app is a [03:54] great place to start. From guided [03:56] meditations that reduce stress to [03:58] courses on overcoming anxiety and all [04:00] grounded in scripture, mental wellness [04:02] starts with small habits and glorifies. [04:05] Daily devotionals are a simple way to [04:07] center your heart and mind in God's [04:08] peace. every single day. Whether you're [04:11] a committed Christian or simply curious [04:13] about faith, the Glorify app has [04:15] something for you. Join over 20 million [04:17] people who have downloaded the Glorify [04:19] app and deepen their relationship with [04:21] God. Visit glorify-app.com/holyost [04:27] right now. To download the Glorify app [04:29] for free, that's glorify-app.com/holyost [04:34] to download the glorify app for free. [04:36] glorify-app.com/holyost. [04:42] The Holy Post is sponsored by [04:43] RocketMoney. I was in a coffee shop [04:45] talking to a friend and the topic of [04:47] finances came up. I'm using Rocket Money [04:49] to track my finances, they said. And I [04:51] said, I use Rocket Money, too. And they [04:53] said, I know. I use it because I heard [04:55] about it on your podcast. We had a [04:57] little Rocket Money fan club right there [04:59] over our lattes. The expense of which, [05:01] of course, was duly noted by our Rocket [05:02] Money accounts. I have to know where my [05:04] money is going. And Rocket Money has [05:06] made that easy. Rocket Money is a [05:08] personal finance app that helps find and [05:10] cancel your unwanted subscriptions, [05:12] monitors your spending, and helps lower [05:14] your bills so you can grow your savings. [05:16] Rocket Money has saved users more than [05:18] $2.5 billion, including over $880 [05:22] million in cancelled subscriptions [05:24] alone. Their 10 million members save up [05:26] to $740 a year when they use all of the [05:29] app's premium features. Save money by [05:32] cancelling your unwanted subscriptions [05:34] and reach your financial goals faster [05:36] with RocketMoney. Go to [05:37] rocketmoney.com/holyost [05:40] today. That's rocketmoney.com/holyost. [05:43] rocketmoney.com/holypost. [05:51] Okay. Have a very hairy Christmas. [05:54] >> That's what I'm going to get you for [05:55] Christmas, Phil. What? [05:56] >> A random 2in hair. [05:58] >> Oh, that's so nice. [05:59] >> Yeah. When next time you pluck one off [06:02] your body, just go. This was from [06:03] >> the other day. The other day I went to [06:06] put on a shoe [06:07] >> of mine. One of my shoes. A shoe? That [06:11] sounds weird. Hey, there's a shoe. I'm [06:12] going to put it on. I found it hanging [06:15] from a power line. No, one of my shoes. [06:17] I went to put it on and there was like a [06:21] 6-in blonde hair in my shoe, [06:25] which made me wonder, you know, if my [06:28] wife finds this, is she going to think [06:30] that that I'm, you know, cheating? [06:32] >> Your wife has blonde hair? Yeah. [06:34] >> But then I I remembered my wife has 6 in [06:37] blonde hairs. Is she cheating with my [06:40] shoe? What's going on here? [06:43] My gosh. [06:47] I just couldn't I couldn't figure out [06:49] how one of my wife's hairs would end up [06:50] inside my shoe. [06:52] >> Wait a minute. First of all, my hair is [06:54] light. [06:55] >> It moves. [06:55] >> It moves. It drifts. It gets blown. And [06:57] it can easily just land in a shoe. [07:00] >> This is not weird. [07:00] >> I don't think that's true. [07:02] >> Who? [07:03] >> It was long. [07:04] >> Wow. [07:04] >> It could It could have been a golden [07:05] retriever that walked by you and brushed [07:08] up your leg, got some hair on your pan, [07:09] and fell in your shoe when you took it [07:10] off. It could have been a million [07:11] things. [07:11] >> Complicated story. [07:12] >> Have a very [07:14] Christmas. This is our theme today. [07:16] We're doing nothing but stories about [07:18] hair. [07:20] >> All right, your turn, Kaylin. No, [07:22] >> give us a story about [07:24] >> Okay, I'm sorry. This is not what we're [07:26] doing today. I don't know why I'm [07:28] behaving this way. It's shameful. [07:30] >> That's what we ask all the time. [07:31] >> It's shameful. It would make my parents [07:33] use my middle name when addressing me [07:35] and say, "Philip Roger." [07:37] >> Roger. Thank you, Vicer. [07:39] >> I learned that recently. What do you [07:42] think you're doing? [07:45] >> We're I'll tell you what we're doing. [07:46] We're answering questions. Questions [07:47] from our lovely, delightful, loyal [07:51] audience, [07:52] >> y'all. Thanks y'all for sending us in [07:55] questions. We have a lot of them and [07:57] we're going to take turns. So, we each [07:58] picked. We had like 40 to choose from [08:00] there. [08:00] >> And Mike took it down from way more. We [08:03] had a lot of questions. [08:04] >> Did we ask for questions and they all [08:06] came at once or were these collected [08:07] like over the last year? We asked our [08:09] Holy Post Plus subscribers for [08:11] questions. [08:12] >> Okay, just for this for this. Wow, we [08:13] got a lot. [08:14] >> So, if you're not a Holy Post Plus [08:15] subscriber, you don't get to ask us [08:17] squat. [08:17] >> That's right. [08:18] >> Not squat. You can't even ask us about [08:21] hair cuz we're just not going to answer. [08:23] Even though we love talking about hair, [08:24] especially Caitlyn, [08:26] >> it's my favorite subject. [08:29] >> Okay, Sky, [08:31] >> we each picked a few questions to answer [08:33] and so we're going to start with Sky. [08:35] Sky, give us a question. [08:36] >> Uh, okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Um, [08:40] let's start with something really light. [08:42] Okay. Phil like hair. This question [08:45] comes in. Says, "Since Phil has a little [08:47] experience lending anthropomorphic [08:50] attributes to vegetation, how would he [08:52] cast the Holy Post media team as fruits [08:55] or vegetables?" I don't know if you want [08:56] to do the whole team. That'd [08:58] >> be a lot of people. [08:58] >> Oh, yeah. All All 48 of us. [09:00] >> Yeah. [09:01] >> Um, yeah. I don't like that question. [09:04] And and why the reason the reason and no [09:07] I don't mind it being asked but I don't [09:10] >> I didn't really make characters by [09:14] thinking about the personality of a [09:16] vegetable like oh that's an eggplant [09:20] would have what kind of personality I [09:22] just kind of took shapes and then I gave [09:24] them personality so it kind of went the [09:26] other way around. Oh, [09:27] >> but looking at you, [09:31] >> Sky Jatani, [09:32] >> I really I really I have a I have a [09:34] >> a hope. [09:35] >> Yes. [09:35] >> Really? [09:37] >> I was thinking like a musk melon. [09:39] >> A what? [09:40] >> A musk melon. [09:40] >> What is that? [09:41] >> Or a cantaloupe. [09:43] >> It's that was disappointing. [09:45] >> It's a big round melon. [09:46] >> What did you want to be, Skye? [09:48] >> I want to be a mango. Why would you be [09:51] >> Oh, that's cute. [09:52] >> Why would you be something tropical and [09:54] sweet? Oh shoot. [09:58] >> I'm half Indian. What a lot of mangoes [10:01] in India. [10:02] >> Yeah. [10:02] >> Yeah. Sweet. So mangoes. We're basing it [10:06] on region of [10:07] >> not necessarily, but I just I like I've [10:09] always loved mangoes. I like they have a [10:11] big hard pit in the middle of them. [10:13] >> Okay. So you just want to be a mango. It [10:15] doesn't really have anything to do with [10:17] your personality or the flavor of a [10:19] mango. [10:21] >> It's just [10:22] >> you want to be a mango. [10:23] >> I like mangoes. And you were hoping that [10:24] I would have come to that conclusion. [10:26] >> Just, you know, some kind of telepathic [10:27] intuitive understanding that Sky wants [10:29] to be a mango. [10:30] >> Yeah, that's not how it works. Um, [10:32] Caitlyn, see this is this is gets more [10:34] problematic. Yeah, it does. [10:36] >> And this shows [10:37] >> this shows what's wrong with America. [10:40] No, [10:41] >> because when I started doing women [10:43] characters [10:45] in V tales, actually episode one, [10:48] episode one had uh two female [10:50] >> Does Episode one pass the Beal test? [10:54] >> Uh, remind me. [10:55] >> Two female characters talk to each other [10:57] about something that is not a man. [11:00] >> Is this like the Billy Graham rule? No. [11:02] >> No, it's the opposite. [11:03] >> No. No. [11:04] >> No. Unfortunate. [11:06] >> No. Okay. But one was a one was a pear, [11:10] one was a I forget what the other one [11:12] was. Maybe a gourd. And then and then [11:14] Junior's mom who [11:16] >> gourd's just like the universal [11:18] character vegetable. [11:19] >> Yeah, I loved gourds because they come [11:20] in many shapes, sizes, and colors. So I [11:23] could just kind of make up a shape and [11:24] call it a gourd. [11:26] >> Is probably accurate. [11:27] >> So wait, you had a pair a female pair? [11:29] >> Pear a a gourd. And then my mom [11:32] asparagus who was was an asparagus [11:34] because her son was an asparagus and he [11:36] needed a family. So every room became [11:38] >> but you can't do hybrid vegetables. [11:40] >> None of those here's the problem. None [11:43] of those in our visual culture are [11:46] shapes that young girls want to be [11:48] associated with. [11:49] >> That is true. So, as time went by, [11:52] people internally like marketing people [11:55] started saying, "We need a female [11:58] character for young girls that's more of [12:00] a, you know, look up to, want to be [12:02] her." And so, we had to invent one. And [12:05] and it um uh what's her name? [12:08] >> Esther. Well, Esther. Yeah. Esther was [12:10] made to give girls a role model. [12:14] That's I mean, that was my order. Like, [12:17] you need to do this. Like, oh, okay. I'm [12:20] sorry. I was just telling Bible stories. [12:22] >> And what what is she now? Is she a [12:23] green? [12:24] >> She's a genetically engineered green [12:25] onion. [12:26] >> Yeah, [12:27] >> I love green onions. [12:28] >> I Which I did that first with Annie, the [12:30] little girl from Rack Shack, and Benny. [12:32] >> What about [12:32] >> where we gave it was a green onion with [12:34] a head, which does not occur in nature. [12:37] I don't know if you know this. [12:38] >> I I don't think most vegetables have [12:40] eyes and ears and mouths in nature [12:42] either. [12:43] >> So So we couldn't But like Madame [12:45] Blueberry was just a blueberry. So she [12:47] was just round. What about? [12:49] >> And it's okay. Little boys don't mind [12:52] thinking of themselves as round [12:54] vegetables, but little girls, I was [12:56] told, do not want to think of themselves [12:58] as round vegetables. So, you can't make [13:00] female round vegetables. And I don't [13:03] like that. It's sexist, and I'm [13:04] offended. [13:06] >> What about the carrot? [13:08] >> Laura? [13:08] >> Yeah, Laura. Laura carrot. [13:10] >> She's a baby carrot. [13:10] >> Yeah, but she would she's [13:12] >> she grow up to be a bigger carrot? [13:14] >> Yeah, but would she have shape? [13:17] >> Carrots have lots of shapes. Would she [13:18] have female shape? [13:19] >> I mean, I hope not too much female. [13:21] >> I know. [13:23] >> I don't want to talk about this anymore. [13:25] >> I don't think we should. I don't [13:26] >> Nothing good can come of it. It was [13:29] frustrating to me that we had female [13:31] characters, but I was told they weren't [13:33] right because little girls would not [13:36] want to be them because of their shape. [13:38] And no one ever said that about any of [13:40] the male characters. [13:41] >> Yeah. I don't know what if that says [13:42] something about the vegetable characters [13:44] or it says something about our view of [13:46] girls. [13:46] >> I think both. Hey, Caitlyn. Do you have [13:48] a question? [13:49] >> So, wait, you only did Sky? [13:52] >> Yeah, he's bypassing you because you're [13:54] a woman. [13:54] >> Oh, no. I'm I'm saying it can't be done [13:57] other than Oh, you would be a beautiful [13:59] genetically engineered [14:02] >> something, not in I'm not going to put [14:04] you in the shape of a vegetable because [14:05] it's just [14:06] >> But I get to be a muskmelon. [14:08] >> You get to be You have to be a [14:09] muskmelon. [14:11] You [14:11] >> walk in here with that head and I'm [14:13] going to say, "Oh, yeah. Either that or [14:16] egg. [14:17] You are an egghehead kind of, you know, [14:20] in the typical brainy. [14:22] >> I guess you're already a tomato, soy [14:24] sense. I know. I know. [14:26] >> I I'm nothing but what I am. [14:29] >> Mhm. [14:29] >> Oh, that was really deep. [14:31] >> Yeah. [14:32] >> All right, Caitlyn, what's your [14:33] question? [14:33] >> Uh, my question is from someone who [14:36] says, "On several episodes, Sky and [14:38] Caitlyn have claimed that it is [14:40] impossible to have a right ethical [14:41] system without the teachings of [14:43] Christianity. How do they justify that [14:45] given the ethical systems that appear to [14:47] exist in frameworks of other religions [14:49] and the failure of Christian teachings [14:51] to produce ethical political systems? [14:54] >> Can we do more questions about hair or [14:55] vegetables? [14:57] >> All right, I call BS on this question. [15:00] >> Don't be too mean because I think they [15:02] they have [15:03] >> they have a point. [15:04] >> I don't recall ever saying you can't [15:06] have an ethical system without [15:07] Christianity. [15:08] >> I agree. We have not said that. But we [15:09] have [15:10] >> Let's say let's say you did say that. [15:12] Why did you say that? our producer might [15:14] have pointed out we have multiple times [15:16] and I think this is quite justifiable [15:18] said something like it's it's impossible [15:21] or it's really difficult to believe X [15:23] without this other Christian teaching or [15:25] to act in X way without this other [15:27] Christian teaching which is one way of [15:29] saying we are Christians who believe [15:30] Christian teachings are right but I [15:33] think they have a good qu they have a [15:34] good question in the sense that we will [15:35] often say there is some good political [15:38] or ethical thing to do that really only [15:41] makes sense to us in the context text of [15:43] Christian teaching. And I do think in [15:45] general it is a good question to say how [15:47] can you believe that? How can you both [15:48] believe that like Christianity is true [15:51] and other ethical systems are not and [15:53] yet deal with the fact that other ones [15:55] do exist that sometimes seem to be more [15:58] effective than the Christian teachings [16:01] that produce [16:02] >> I don't think other ethical systems are [16:04] untrue. I would say that the things that [16:07] are true about those other ethical [16:08] systems they share with what is true of [16:10] Christianity. It isn't like Christianity [16:12] has exclusivity on all truth and no one [16:14] else gets any. There is general [16:16] revelation. There is, you know, the [16:19] universal grace that exists. So I I [16:21] think there are moral people in all [16:22] kinds of different religious and and [16:24] worldview systems that it's wonderful [16:27] and I'm grateful for that for sure. And [16:29] I also think there are people who claim [16:30] Christian identity, [16:32] >> yes, [16:32] >> which do not act ethically. And so, um, [16:36] no, I would not say you have to have [16:38] Christianity to have a fully ethical [16:40] system, but I think the ethics of [16:44] Christianity are stronger and less [16:46] likely to be violated if they are rooted [16:48] in that deeper [16:50] >> narrative and uh, commitment to [16:52] doctrinal ideas from which Christian [16:55] ethics emerge. So, to put it simply, if [16:58] you don't believe Jesus actually rose [16:59] from the dead, I think Christian ethics [17:01] are on a weaker foundation than if you [17:02] believe he did rise from the dead. [17:03] doesn't mean you can't have Christian [17:04] ethics. [17:05] >> They're just going to be a little bit [17:06] easier to chuck when you need it to [17:09] >> be convenient to chuck it. [17:11] >> Mhm. [17:11] >> And and you would also say that [17:15] Christian ethics and Christian thinkers [17:17] >> produced western ethics [17:20] >> largely. Yes. [17:20] >> Largely produced western ethics. And you [17:23] and it's harder to see them developing [17:25] in the west [17:26] >> in the absence of Christianity. [17:28] >> Yeah. Tom Holland's book gets cited all [17:29] the time on this dominion where he talks [17:31] about basically all the things we [17:33] consider to be ethical in the western [17:34] world. [17:36] >> Owe them oh Christianity and Judaism [17:38] before it as their roots and their [17:40] foundations they didn't come out of [17:41] paganism for the most part. [17:42] >> Right. Tell me about it. [17:44] >> Mhm. [17:44] >> Yeah. Nothing good came from paganism. [17:46] That's what I always the idea then [17:48] >> Christmas trees and [17:49] >> if you [17:50] >> most of our holidays [17:51] >> if you erase the theological and [17:53] doctrinal foundations of Christianity [17:55] and Judaism but you say you still want [17:56] these ethics it's a weaker found you can [17:58] still have it. It's a much weaker [18:00] foundation and don't be surprised if [18:01] over time it starts to erode its cracks. [18:06] Um [18:07] did you have a thought about that? [18:09] >> Well the only thing I was going to add [18:10] is to their last part of the question. [18:13] the failure of Christian teachings to [18:14] produce ethical political systems. Two [18:16] things I think are important to say [18:17] about this. One, it depends where and at [18:21] what point in history you're talking [18:22] about. There have been plenty of times [18:23] and places in history where it was [18:25] Christian teachings that produced some [18:27] of the most important movements towards [18:29] actual social justice in our country's [18:31] history and other countries. Like to [18:34] your point about Christianity shaping so [18:36] much of western ethics, it has often [18:38] been true that Christian not just [18:40] Christian ethics but the Christian story [18:42] and metaphysic that underlies them have [18:45] been the reason to for example [18:48] drastically decrease the number of [18:50] children that are left to die you know [18:52] in the Roman Empire or that has [18:54] motivated you know civil rights in this [18:56] country or civil rights in other [18:58] countries apartheid in South Africa like [18:59] there are many places where Christianity [19:02] has been fa faithfully articulated [19:05] towards truly good political ends. The [19:08] fact that it in very many times and [19:10] places does not in a certain sense fits [19:12] within the story that Christianity tells [19:14] about human ethical systems which is [19:16] that humans even Christian ones are [19:19] fallen and finite and make very serious [19:22] mistakes that are multiplied when they [19:23] are enacted on a systemic level. So [19:26] that's not to be like gotcha actually [19:28] when we fail we were right all along. [19:30] But it is telling that [19:32] >> many of the other right ethical systems [19:34] that especially many today that don't [19:36] claim to have any divine source [19:40] don't actually have a lot of space for [19:43] and the humans that came up with this [19:44] are fallen and will incorrectly you know [19:48] actualize this system. It tends to be [19:50] the secular ethical systems that have a [19:52] very high view of how good, thoughtful, [19:56] considerate humans will act that is [19:58] doesn't actually end up being true in [20:00] practice. [20:00] >> Tracy Mackenzie, who's a history prof [20:03] here, wrote a book a couple years ago [20:04] called We the Fallen People. And it [20:06] basically traces what you're talking [20:07] about that the founding generation [20:09] created a form of government predicated [20:11] on the fallenness of humanity. And [20:13] because it's built on that foundation [20:15] that we are sinful fallen people, it [20:17] actually works better [20:18] >> than a system that's created assuming [20:20] that some people are a patriarch or a [20:23] monarch or something is somehow divinely [20:25] ordained and beyond question. [20:28] >> Might I add, it starts to break down [20:30] when some of us decide we're not as [20:33] fallen as other people, right? And so if [20:35] we can get our guy [20:37] >> right, [20:38] >> we need to give him more power so he can [20:41] oppose the extra fallen on behalf of the [20:44] slightly less fallen. And that's I think [20:46] where we are today. [20:47] >> Not good. [20:48] >> Another way of putting it is an accurate [20:49] anthropology, an accurate view of [20:51] humanity leads to a better form of [20:53] government than a fictional or idealized [20:56] vision of humanity [20:57] >> which leads to a weaker form of [20:59] government. [21:00] >> Right? And speaking historically, I [21:01] think actually following Jesus teaching [21:03] has always been difficult from a [21:05] perspective of self-sacrifice. [21:08] And when it became um socially [21:11] advantageous to be associated with [21:13] Christianity, like when the emperor says [21:16] it's the new official religion, and when [21:18] you need to be a member of a church to [21:21] do business deals in some towns, it [21:24] leads to people claiming Christianity [21:27] without any real commitment to the [21:29] teachings of Jesus, which leads to some [21:32] very compromised political systems. [21:34] >> Yeah. [21:34] >> Okay. Did you get all that? I hope you [21:36] got all that cuz if you didn't, I'm [21:37] going to start talking about hair again. [21:40] It's my turn. Hey, what do you think [21:42] stories will be like in heaven? If a [21:45] good story involves some type of [21:47] conflict and either overcoming it or [21:49] succumbing to it, what will make for a [21:52] good story in heaven if there's no more [21:54] conflict? And then I added to that my [21:56] own thought. If humans get satisfaction [22:00] from overcoming obstacles and solving [22:02] problems, what is life without obstacles [22:04] and problems? [22:06] What stories are we telling each other [22:07] in heaven and how are we enjoying how [22:10] are we you know [22:12] >> I think there's a big assumption in that [22:13] question [22:14] >> that there is no conflict and there's no [22:16] obstacles to overcome [22:17] >> the conflict makes us cry and there are [22:19] no tears any conflict well first of all [22:21] what's the classic storytelling thing [22:23] there's man against man against self man [22:25] against these are all old you know not [22:27] gender-incclusive language titles but [22:29] man against uh self man against culture [22:31] man against nature right that's [22:34] >> those are all the for and then boy meets [22:36] girl, boy loses girl, boy gets girl [22:39] again. [22:39] >> So not all of those are interpersonal [22:42] conflicts. [22:43] >> Yeah, but there's no man against nature [22:46] in new creation. [22:47] >> Why not? [22:49] >> Not against [22:50] >> not against those are Yes. Those are [22:52] kind of in fallen worlds. But I think [22:54] the idea I would agree that you you [22:58] >> a narrative predicated on conflict [23:01] doesn't seem to make sense in new [23:02] creation. Yeah. [23:03] >> But that doesn't mean there isn't [23:04] struggle. [23:05] >> Yeah. [23:05] >> And so a narrative based on uh curiosity [23:08] or discovery. [23:10] >> Yeah. [23:10] >> I mean, [23:11] >> that's there's going to be a whole new [23:13] world to explore and discover and and [23:16] understand and document and and create [23:19] and invent and all of those trials and [23:22] errors and failures in that process are [23:24] going to be the things stories are made [23:25] of. [23:26] >> Is there sweat in new creation? [23:28] >> I don't know. I assume so. [23:29] >> Probably. I mean, we will still be [23:31] finite creatures with limitations. [23:33] >> Exactly. [23:34] >> With those limitations come struggle. [23:36] >> But if but if I'm starting to overheat, [23:38] wouldn't the temperature of new creation [23:40] automatically adjust down? [23:42] >> No, because with someone else who needs [23:44] it to be warm. [23:45] >> For sure. We did an episode or it was a [23:47] part of an episode of Curiously Caitlyn [23:48] where we someone asked a kid asked, [23:50] "Will there be games in heaven?" [23:52] >> And one of the things we talked about [23:53] was competition and risk. like if those [23:56] are central features of games and they [23:58] seem like they're central features of [23:59] storytelling too. There's like something [24:01] at stake, there's some kind of of [24:03] conflict or another like you know [24:05] difference of opinion or something a [24:07] struggle. Um, and what we talked about [24:09] was similar to what you just said, Sky, [24:11] like I think the experience of enjoying [24:14] something like a game because there's a [24:16] risk or because there's competition [24:18] between people will still exist again [24:20] because we're we're creative as [24:23] creatures and we are given tasks to do [24:25] and work is part of both creation and [24:27] new creation. And so all of that will be [24:28] true, but we do have very limited [24:30] imaginations for risk and competition [24:32] that doesn't involve [24:35] conflict that is painful or or [24:37] interpersonal difficulty or doing [24:39] something that requires effort but like [24:42] hurts you. We don't have an imagination [24:43] for that because that's our experience [24:45] of effort and competition and risk. So [24:47] it's hard for us to imagine what it will [24:48] be like, but I believe it will. [24:50] >> So what stories do we tell? [24:52] >> That's that's a you question. [24:54] >> I was hoping you would answer this one. [24:56] Oh, gee. Were you? [24:57] >> Yeah. [24:58] >> I haven't thought about that. [24:59] >> We gave you some theology. Now you [25:01] figure the story part out. [25:03] >> Well, we could tell fictitious stories [25:04] about fictitious people that overcome [25:08] terrible odds. But I don't know. I don't [25:11] know cuz I don't understand new creation [25:13] and I'm not convinced anyone does. So, [25:16] it's hard to I don't know the rules. So, [25:18] I don't know how to apply it to [25:19] storytelling. [25:20] >> I think that's a good way to put most of [25:22] our questions about new creation. [25:23] >> Yeah. I don't know. I'm sorry I failed [25:25] you all and now we have conflict and we [25:28] can tell a story about it and try to [25:31] remember it when we're in heaven. [25:33] >> I I just think there there's been [25:35] conflict and struggle. [25:36] >> Yeah, [25:36] >> struggle I think will still exist. It [25:38] just won't be a sinful kind of struggle. [25:41] >> Yeah. [25:41] >> Okay. Interesting. Interesting. Uh it's [25:44] your turn again. [25:45] >> Oh, it is my turn again. Uh this one's [25:48] more kind of Holy Post specific. [25:50] >> Okay. So, someone asked, "I really [25:53] enjoyed your this is my interviews with [25:55] James Telerico and Andy Basher. I'm [25:58] wondering whether you will be having [25:59] >> Who are they? Can you remind us? [26:00] >> James Telerico is currently running. [26:02] He's a Democrat running for the Senate [26:04] seat in Texas. [26:06] >> And um Andy Basher is the governor of of [26:10] Kentucky, also a Democrat. Both of these [26:12] politicians are very outspoken about [26:14] their Christian faith and [26:17] use those values and ideas in their [26:19] politics. [26:20] >> Okay. They were both on the show and I [26:22] interviewed them. [26:22] >> Got it. [26:22] >> Uh I'm wondering if you'll be having [26:24] interviews with Republican politicians [26:26] who can be as reasonable and productive [26:28] in trying to accomplish something for [26:29] the common good rooted in religious [26:31] faith. [26:33] >> I would love that. [26:34] >> I would too. First of all, we have had [26:35] some Republican politicians on, but [26:37] they're retired politicians. [26:39] >> Well, yeah, they're almost ejected [26:42] politicians. [26:42] >> Well, one one was um uh [26:46] >> Adam Kinzinger. Adam Kinzinger who used [26:48] to be a a Republican representative from [26:50] Illinois here and now he's in Texas but [26:52] he's not in pol he's not elected [26:54] >> politics anymore and um [26:56] >> John Kasich [26:57] >> John Kasich former governor of Ohio ran [26:59] for president in 2016 used to be in [27:01] >> if there's anything else you forgot [27:03] there are things I forgot but here [27:05] here's the bigger point we don't [27:07] actually go out and ask people to come [27:09] on our show we get lots of requests from [27:13] people who want to be on our show and so [27:16] it just so happens that James Telerico [27:18] and Andy Basher and some others um [27:21] Kirstson Gillibrand, some others have [27:23] asked to come on our show and we'll vet [27:25] them along with other potential guests [27:28] and decide who we want to have on. The [27:29] problem is we have not had any currently [27:32] elected Republican politicians ask to be [27:35] on our show. And if they did ask to be [27:37] on our show, we'd be more than happy to [27:39] host them on our show. [27:41] >> But they don't want to come on. Well, we [27:43] don't know that they don't want they [27:45] haven't asked us. [27:46] >> I would say either they don't listen to [27:49] the show because a couple of the people [27:50] that have come on that are politicians [27:52] have said, "Hey, I really like the [27:53] show." [27:54] >> Right. [27:54] >> Um, also they probably don't have [27:57] handlers who are saying it could be to [27:59] your advantage to be [28:01] >> on this show in front of that audience. [28:03] I don't think that's going to happen a [28:05] lot in conservative political circles. [28:07] The point I just want people to hear is [28:09] like we're not excluding somebody who's [28:10] asked to be on our show who's a [28:12] Republican politician. They haven't [28:14] asked to be on the show. And if they [28:16] were if we if they did ask, we would [28:18] there probably be very few reasons why [28:20] we would say no. [28:22] >> Yeah. [28:23] >> Relatively few. [28:23] >> Relatively few. [28:24] >> Seven. [28:25] >> So if you have someone in mind and you [28:26] want them to come on the show, go, you [28:28] know, email them, tell them saying you [28:30] should really be on [28:31] >> the Holy Post. [28:32] >> Kaylin, your turn. [28:34] >> All right, [28:35] Sky. I have been listening for four-ish [28:38] years and have noticed what seems like a [28:40] vibe shift from the negative kermagin to [28:44] a hopeful encourager in your [28:46] perspective. [28:47] >> Am I overly obsessed with you and [28:49] hearing something not there? Or is there [28:51] some truth to this? If yes, so [28:53] >> what has changed for you? I'm asking [28:55] this question because I want you to [28:56] acknowledge that I have made you a [28:57] better person. [28:58] >> Oh, you're taking credit for this. [29:01] >> But I agree with them. I think you've [29:03] gotten less cremly and I appreciate it [29:05] and I would like you to be even less [29:07] cremly than you are now. [29:10] >> I Yes. I I think they're probably [29:12] recognizing I don't think they're just [29:13] obsessed with me. I think they are [29:15] >> I think I think they are probably [29:17] recognizing something. It'd be weird to [29:19] actually go back and listen like in a [29:20] concentrated form to our content because [29:23] then you can kind of see those changes [29:24] more acutely. [29:26] >> Um I I think there's a couple different [29:28] things that could explain this. One is [29:29] just my ongoing growth and [29:31] sanctification. [29:32] >> Thank God for sanctification. [29:34] >> Amen. [29:34] >> We are all being transformed for one. [29:36] We've [29:36] >> all been praying for Scott. [29:37] >> Yes. And I appreciate that. That's a [29:39] factor. I think another factor was in [29:42] the early Trump era. I was and I think [29:46] many of us were kind of in shock over [29:48] what the heck is happening here. and and [29:50] I was somewhat despondent and upset and [29:54] angry over what I was seeing happening [29:56] within my own subculture and Christian [29:58] tribe. And and it was just uh and I [30:01] think the longer that has gone on, the [30:02] more I've realized, okay, just the [30:05] angry, upset, what is going on posture [30:07] isn't helping anything or anyone. And [30:10] just getting more and more upset and [30:12] angry is not what I believe we're called [30:14] to. And I don't think it's faithful to [30:16] the way of Jesus. So, I have done a [30:19] couple things. one just not marinated as [30:22] much in all of that content and news and [30:24] two [30:25] >> trying to think through what is a [30:27] faithful response in this era and I [30:29] think a level of not not like blind [30:32] optimism in the future or everything is [30:34] going to get better or this too shall [30:35] pass but a rooted positivity in my [30:39] identity in Christ in what I really am [30:41] committed to and believe in and the [30:43] realization that no matter what happens [30:45] around us we are called to be a faithful [30:48] uh counterculture culture. Isn't that [30:50] what Tim Keller used to call it? [30:51] Faithful counterculture for the common [30:52] good. Something like that. [30:53] >> I'll vote for that. [30:54] >> Yeah. [30:55] >> Um, so that's another factor is I just [30:57] don't find it very fruitful to be [30:59] negative all the time. Although I, you [31:00] know, I still dabble enjoy it. Dabble, [31:03] you know, it's it's the seasons things [31:05] occasionally. [31:07] >> This episode is sponsored by World [31:09] Relief. We talk a lot on the show about [31:11] refugees and immigrants and our [31:13] responsibility as Christians to help. [31:15] Our partner, World Relief, is on the [31:17] front lines in the US and around the [31:19] world, providing food, clean water, [31:21] medical care, job training, and more to [31:24] people in desperate need. Cuts to [31:26] humanitarian funding and cruel policy [31:28] changes have stripped access to support [31:30] and protection for our refugee neighbors [31:33] both near and far, making the situation [31:36] even worse. During this Advent season, [31:38] here's a great way to live out your [31:39] compassion for families in crisis. Right [31:42] now, a generous $415,000 [31:45] challenge gift multiplies the impact of [31:48] every donation to World Relief. When you [31:50] give today, your impact can go three [31:52] times as far. But the challenge ends on [31:55] December 31st. So to multiply the impact [31:57] of your giving and the number of [31:59] families you help, you need to act now. [32:02] If you want your generosity to make a [32:04] real lasting difference, start your [32:06] monthly partnership today at [32:08] worldreief.org/holyost. [32:10] Again, that's worldreief.org/holyost. [32:15] Okay, my turn. Now that all the Holy [32:17] Post or hosts, Holy Post hosts, the Holy [32:20] Hosts, can we refer to ourselves as the [32:22] Holy Post? [32:22] >> I don't think so. No. No. Okay. Now that [32:25] all of the Holy Post hosts, Holy Post [32:28] hosties, I just can't get over that. [32:29] That's so fun. Holy Post hosts live in [32:31] the Chicago area. If you had a flat tire [32:34] and had to call one of them, which one [32:37] would you call and why? So, we have to [32:40] limit to the three of us and Esau. [32:42] >> Just the three of us and Esau. [32:44] >> That takes out my automatic answer, [32:46] which is Mike, the producer. [32:48] >> Oh, [32:49] >> reliable. I believe he could change a [32:51] tire [32:52] >> without a jack. He could. [32:54] >> I think I Yeah, I would pick Mike. But [32:55] if I can't pick Mike now, I have to [32:56] think some more about it. [32:57] >> Oh, I wouldn't call anyone cuz I know [33:01] how to change a freaking tire. [33:03] >> That was going to be my next thing. [33:05] >> I've been changing tires since before [33:07] Kaitlin was born. [33:08] >> Me, too. So, yeah, I can change. [33:11] >> So, neither of you are calling. [33:12] >> Thanks, though. But I can change a tire. [33:14] Now, if I just needed a ride because I [33:16] didn't my my spare was missing or [33:18] something, then it's like, who can I get [33:20] a hold of? [33:21] >> I'm calling family members first. [33:23] >> Yeah. [33:23] >> Yeah, but that's not the question. [33:24] >> I know. I know. [33:25] >> This is I thought this was going to be a [33:26] fun question. [33:28] >> I don't think anyone's calling Caitlyn. [33:30] >> All right. [33:30] >> No, no one should call me to help you [33:32] change tires. [33:32] >> No one's calling Caitlyn. The question [33:34] is And Caitlyn's calling Mike. So, there [33:36] we are. [33:37] >> Yeah. And the rest of us are [33:38] self-sufficient. The rest of us are not [33:40] calling anyone. [33:40] >> Mike, Phil, Sky. [33:43] >> Yeah, cuz Kerin, [33:45] >> you know. [33:45] >> Exactly. [33:46] >> And Kermagin with a wrench. That's not [33:48] >> You do know I'd modify my own car. I do [33:50] mechanical. [33:50] >> I don't know that I want to lecture [33:52] about it. [33:53] >> Wow. [33:55] Wow. [33:57] I would teach you how to do it on I'd go [33:59] through the steps of you ever stranded [34:00] without I did this for my son recently. [34:02] >> Okay. If you want to know why you should [34:04] call me [34:04] >> Yeah. Pitch yourself. [34:06] >> Yeah. Uh, go back I'm gonna say around [34:10] 30 years preveggeggies. I had a little [34:13] crap car living in Chicago. [34:15] >> The one that you left on the side of the [34:17] highway. [34:17] >> Yeah, that it wasn't on the highway. It [34:19] was just in downtown Chicago on in a [34:21] street in a parking space. [34:23] >> Um, and I was driving with a co-orker, [34:28] female coworker. I forget where we were [34:30] going, but we were on the interstate. [34:32] >> Was anyone else in the car? [34:32] >> I was going to say, Billy Graham, rule [34:33] violation. [34:34] >> Um, the Holy Spirit. [34:36] was in between the two front seats and [34:39] got a flat tire and on on like in the [34:44] middle of downtown Chicago on the [34:46] expressway on the freeway. So really [34:48] high stress area. Pulled off, changed [34:50] the tire, got back in, kept driving and [34:54] and she was quiet for a while and then [34:56] turned and said, [34:57] >> "You didn't even get upset about that. [34:59] >> That's impressive." And I was like, [35:00] "That is impressive." [35:01] >> And then I you know, I just thought, [35:02] "Well, why didn't I?" And it I'm so [35:04] pragmatic. It's like what good would [35:06] that have done [35:07] >> to be upset about that? Just fix the [35:09] tire and go on. [35:09] >> Oh my gosh. Yeah, you two should [35:11] definitely not call me cuz I would freak [35:13] out. [35:14] >> Call me. [35:14] >> Yeah. Okay. [35:15] >> I have also changed a tire on an [35:16] expressway. [35:17] >> Okay. Wow. I'm glad I have options. [35:18] >> I You would have options. [35:20] >> And now we know. [35:21] >> Okay. Sky. See, I was When I started [35:24] driving, cars were not reliable. [35:28] When I started driving, you had to [35:31] wonder every time it was cold if your [35:33] car would start and what were you going [35:35] to do if it wouldn't [35:37] >> and you get stuck in the snow. It's like [35:39] they made cars magic about 25 years ago [35:43] and I don't know [35:43] >> now they do so much. [35:44] >> Yeah. And now it's it like when you [35:46] would start a car in the winter when I [35:49] started driving, you had to have a [35:51] strategy for are you are you going to [35:53] pump the gas? Do you you like to give it [35:55] a little gas cuz you don't want to flood [35:56] it. You don't want to flood it. And then [35:58] if you turn it and it cranks, but it [36:00] doesn't turn over, do you try again [36:01] right away? Do you let it rest? What do [36:03] you do? Cuz you don't want to run the [36:05] battery down. And now cars have buttons. [36:08] >> It doesn't matter what the weather is. [36:09] You just push more buttons. [36:11] >> Start. No, that's it's a start button. [36:13] Cars have start buttons and you just [36:15] push it and you don't touch. [36:16] >> I haven't put a key in a car [36:19] >> ever. [36:19] >> I don't know ever if I've owned a car [36:20] that [36:21] >> I still own a car that you put a key [36:22] into. [36:23] >> Wow. [36:24] >> So [36:25] >> that's amazing. I know [36:26] >> you are so old and your cars [36:28] >> so analog. [36:29] >> Okay. Uh who's next? You're next. [36:31] >> I'm next. [36:31] >> You're next. Who's next? [36:33] >> Uh I am curious. Where does the idea of [36:35] free gift of salvation come from? I [36:37] don't recall any scripture using this [36:39] term. In fact, Jesus says to count the [36:41] cost. It's a question I've been [36:43] pondering as I've heard so many skeptics [36:45] say nothing is ever free. Never trust [36:48] anyone who says there is. And I'm [36:50] thinking that they have a point. It's [36:52] more of a theological Bible question. We [36:54] just answered this in the Curiously [36:56] Caitlyn we recorded this morning. So, [36:57] let's see if you have the right answer [36:58] that we had. [37:00] >> Okay. Well, first of all, there is a [37:01] scripture that this is based on. [37:03] >> Uh, Ephesians chapter 2, Paul talks [37:06] about how grace is the free gift of God. [37:08] >> Um, and I think what what this person [37:11] might be getting hung on or people who [37:13] commonly use the cliche that God's grace [37:15] is a free gift. [37:18] >> Grace is a this is a Dallas Willard [37:20] quote, but grace is opposed to earning. [37:23] It's not opposed to effort. [37:24] >> Yeah. [37:25] >> So, you cannot earn God's grace. It is [37:27] indeed a free gift. But the the [37:30] Christian life is one that takes an [37:32] enormous amount of effort. This is why [37:34] Paul can also talk about, you know, [37:35] beating his body into submission and and [37:38] Jesus can talk about counting the cost [37:39] of being his disciple because there is [37:41] effort involved [37:43] >> but [37:43] >> working out your salvation. [37:44] >> Work out, right? Work out your salvation [37:45] with fear and trembling for it is God [37:47] who's at work within you. Um, but the [37:51] there's a a bunch in this question like [37:53] first of all, how do you define [37:54] salvation when people automatically go, [37:56] well, that just means going to heaven [37:57] when you die and not going to hell. [37:59] That's a platonic Greek import of views [38:03] that are not rooted, I think, in [38:04] scripture. The definition of grace, [38:06] which is just it's all God, it's not me. [38:09] >> I know we don't have time for all this, [38:10] but [38:11] >> what I'm trying to get at is the free [38:13] gift notion is there in the New [38:14] Testament. There are passages of [38:16] scripture that speak to this, but when [38:18] properly understood, it does not negate [38:20] the call of the Christian life that [38:22] requires effort and self-control and [38:24] discipline and taking up your cross and [38:26] following Jesus. [38:27] >> Oh, I can't just go down to the front of [38:30] the church during the altar call, pick [38:32] up the free gift, and then never think [38:34] about it again. [38:34] >> Correct. It is It is not earned. You [38:37] cannot earn it. You do not deserve it, [38:39] but it doesn't mean there is no effort [38:41] in in the call to follow Jesus. Caitlyn, [38:44] is that correct? Is that is that what [38:45] you said, Kaitlin? [38:46] >> Yeah, people can listen to Curiously [38:47] Kaitlin to hear more about [38:49] >> Is that a show? [38:50] >> It is a show. We talk about first [38:52] century gift economies and and what Paul [38:55] might have been thinking when it came to [38:57] a gift and how a gift [39:00] comes with obligations. [39:01] >> Kid was wondering about first century [39:03] gift economies. [39:04] >> A classic kid question. Yeah. [39:08] >> Okay. Uh your turn. Or did you ask that [39:10] one? [39:10] >> No, this is my turn. [39:11] >> Okay, your turn. Uh wondering what each [39:13] of you would say is the most impactful [39:16] secular or at least not expressly [39:18] spiritual book or movie you have ever [39:21] experienced. Bonus for ones that made [39:22] you think more deeply about your faith [39:24] even though they weren't necessarily [39:26] trying to. [39:27] >> Yeah, there's many. [39:28] >> I saw that question and I struggled with [39:31] it [39:32] >> to come up with an answer [39:36] >> and I So you answer first. [39:38] >> No, I haven't thought of my answer yet. [39:41] Wow. [39:42] >> I You guys are the movie people. I [39:43] thought you would have good movie [39:44] answers. [39:45] >> Yeah, I should. [39:46] >> I should I should have good answers for [39:50] this question. [39:53] >> Oh my gosh. [39:55] >> There are so many. [39:56] >> Okay, I can I can ask a new one. [39:57] >> No, no, no. I'll I'll throw out some. [39:59] I'm not saying any of these are like the [40:00] most because I don't I haven't thought [40:02] about enough to have like a superlative [40:04] Yeah. [40:04] >> answer. Um, some movies that come to [40:06] mind are there was a movie called The [40:08] War with uh Kevin Cosner and Elijah Wood [40:11] when he was just a little boy [40:13] >> and it's I think profoundly Christian in [40:16] its themes. Amadeus about Mozart has a [40:19] lot of profoundly Christian themes in [40:21] them. [40:22] >> Um, [40:24] >> I remember Lay Miser Rob the musical [40:25] which is based on the Victor Hugo novel [40:27] which there are now movies about. I it's [40:29] a it's an entire novel which is an [40:31] exploration of law versus grace. Mhm. [40:34] >> Um, that was a biggie. [40:38] >> Lord of the Rings. The Lord of the [40:39] Rings. I was just going to say that. [40:41] >> Pretty spiritual. [40:42] >> Yes, it's very spiritual. [40:43] >> But I'm going to come up with one that [40:45] no one else would come up with. [40:47] >> This This would not occur to you in a [40:49] thousand years. Lion, the witch in the [40:51] wardrobe. [40:52] >> Oh my gosh. [40:53] >> That's That's a stretch, [40:56] >> Sky. Yeah. [40:57] >> How did you not say The Godfather? [40:58] >> The Well, no. [41:00] I think the Godfather had it's a little [41:02] bit like Proverbs [41:03] >> cuz there's there's a lot of little [41:05] nuggets I pull out of there. [41:06] >> Leave the gun, take the canoli. [41:07] >> Yeah. All that summarizes your whole [41:10] theology of Christ. [41:11] >> Well, the but the macro narrative of the [41:14] Godfather, I wouldn't say, "Oh, this is [41:15] a, you know, [41:16] >> yeah, deeply." [41:17] >> I would also say Danny Bole's Millions. [41:20] >> That's a great one. about the kid who [41:22] was trying to hold on to his faith after [41:24] his mother died [41:25] >> and believes God has given him a gift of [41:27] a million dollars that he has to give [41:29] away to the poor. [41:30] >> I think Rainman. [41:33] >> Rainman [41:33] >> with Dustin Hoffman and Tom Cruz. [41:35] >> What's the message? [41:36] >> Well, it's just the transformation of [41:38] Tom Cruz's character from a [41:39] self-centered [41:40] >> Oh, okay. Yeah. [41:41] >> You know, egotistical jerk into somebody [41:43] who learns [41:44] >> Yeah. So, you know [41:45] >> Yeah. So, uh cars [41:48] >> Yeah. There's a lot of Right. [41:50] There's a lot of those kinds of things. [41:51] >> The carb meets Jesus and then turns his [41:54] life around. He goes down. He goes [41:56] forward at a Billy Graham crusade. He [41:58] drives down the sawdust trail. He turns [42:01] his life over to Christ. And he [42:03] literally turns around as a car repents, [42:06] turns 180 degrees, and drives off the [42:08] other direction. [42:09] >> Whoa. [42:10] >> All right. [42:10] >> Yeah, you should see that movie. [42:12] >> I should watch that movie. Pretty [42:13] amazing. [42:14] >> I wrote about in my new book, I wrote [42:15] about ET. That was a super impactful [42:17] movie for me. I thought you were saying [42:19] you wrote a book about ET. [42:20] >> No, I didn't write it about ET. [42:22] >> Yeah. So that's a whole another one. [42:24] That's that's a whole story about uh [42:26] grief. Okay. And anyway, there's so many [42:28] movies out there that deeply redemptive, [42:30] >> but mostly Lion, the Witch, in the [42:32] Wardrobe. [42:33] >> Um, you all dive into some pretty heavy [42:35] and emotionally draining topics on the [42:37] show. How do you actually decompress [42:39] afterwards? Do you have any go-to [42:41] self-care rituals, guilty pleasures [42:44] included? Um, quite often after we [42:47] record, rather than going home or going [42:50] to my office, I go to a coffee shop and [42:52] I sit quietly by myself and I don't say [42:56] anything for an hour but sip on my [42:59] coffee. [42:59] >> What coffee do you get? [43:01] >> Um, I these days I'm getting vanilla [43:03] lattes. [43:04] >> Not totally sweetened. [43:05] >> Half sweet. Half sweet vanilla latte. [43:08] Yeah. Ideal because I'm not looking for [43:09] dessert. I don't want a sugar rush from [43:11] my coffee. But I also [43:12] >> You sound like such an old man saying [43:13] that. That's why I wanted you to say [43:14] that. [43:15] >> I al [43:17] I also don't particularly like the taste [43:20] of coffee. [43:21] >> So, you want it sweetened so it's not [43:23] tasting like coffee. Not so much. [43:25] >> See, that's why I don't drink coffee cuz [43:27] if you got to do something. Yeah. Cuz if [43:29] you have to do something to like it like [43:31] the taste of coffee. [43:31] >> Do you eat fish? [43:33] >> Yeah. But you got to do something to it. [43:35] So, it depends on the fish. I don't like [43:37] all fish. [43:38] >> Sushi. [43:39] >> Cuz people say, "I like fish. I just [43:41] don't like fishy fish." [43:43] Depends. Fish is supposed to be fishy. [43:46] >> Love the sinner, hate the fish [43:48] >> or something. Okay. Oh, did you answer? [43:51] What was the question? What are we [43:52] talking about? [43:52] >> What do you do to compress? [43:54] >> What do you do when you're stressed out [43:57] by all the crap we have to talk about? [44:00] >> I have loved since moving here that I [44:02] walk pretty much every day to and from [44:05] the office. That's a nice like I love a [44:07] walk. I'm a big walker. I get my 10,000 [44:09] steps every day. [44:10] >> Oh, wow. And the walk from here to my [44:13] house is lovely. So I that's a nice [44:15] thing. [44:16] >> Yeah. [44:16] >> Um I'll call someone on the phone. I [44:19] like I'm a I'm a chatter. [44:21] >> That's about it. I'm going to get my [44:22] nails done after this. So [44:24] >> that'll be fun. [44:25] >> That'll seem so. [44:26] >> Yeah. [44:27] >> You don't feel like you're not exhausted [44:30] after an hour of talking about or an [44:33] hour of talking, which I'm exhausted. [44:35] >> I'm not exhausted after an hour of [44:36] talking. It's more cumulative with the [44:39] topics we deal with where it's like [44:41] after a while it'll get to me. But I do [44:43] appreciate that most days I'm kind of [44:44] done in the office when we finish [44:45] recording and I walk home. [44:46] >> Yeah. And that's that's why my funny [44:49] stories are such a breath of fresh air [44:51] for you. [44:52] >> You're so right [44:52] >> for you. [44:53] >> Some of them. [44:54] >> Especially the ones that are your [44:58] favorites. [44:59] >> No, no, no. [44:59] >> Okay. Sky, what do you do? [45:01] >> Ski shooting. Is this what the shooting [45:03] is about? I like a YouTube channel [45:05] called With Farts. [45:08] >> What the heck? [45:12] >> It's a YouTube channel that takes movies [45:13] and TV shows but then just [45:15] >> and they add farts. [45:16] >> They just insert farts. It's fantastic. [45:18] >> And it's incredibly [45:19] >> makes it so much better. [45:19] >> It's so I just giggle like a middle [45:22] school boy. [45:22] >> Yeah. If there's anything I learned from [45:24] my 5-year-old grandson, it's life goes [45:27] better with farts. [45:28] >> It does. [45:28] >> Wow. [45:29] >> Here's the thing. I forgot who said it, [45:30] but if you don't think farts are funny, [45:32] you're choosing to have less laughter in [45:34] your life, but the same number of farts. [45:36] >> Oh, that's so true. Mhm. Yeah. I feel [45:40] the same way about hangails. [45:42] >> Okay, [45:42] >> there you go. [45:43] >> Wow. [45:43] >> Just kidding. Um, you're really going to [45:46] pretend like you don't think farts are [45:48] funny and and children work with [45:50] children. [45:51] >> I love children. [45:52] >> There are lots of things children in [45:54] your class. You you become the stern [45:57] school mom. say scold them, [46:00] >> Johnny. But you don't let our gas out. [46:01] >> But I don't let [46:02] >> it is not biblical. You don't reward. I [46:04] don't I don't scold them. I don't reward [46:06] it either. No. [46:07] >> That's [46:08] >> shockingly I don't. [46:09] >> That's shaming. [46:10] >> Goodness gracious. [46:11] >> Okay. Was that my question? Yes, it was. [46:13] It's my turn. My turn. Your turn. Okay. [46:16] >> Uh Sky, could you please follow up on [46:19] the demons aren't fallen angels comment [46:21] from the live event? [46:22] >> Well, this one I've never heard. No, no, [46:24] no. We're going to keep this really, [46:25] really short. [46:26] >> Okay. Um I I [46:27] >> What did you say on the in the library? [46:28] >> I remember exactly. [46:29] >> I remember hear cuz that resonated. I [46:32] like Oh yeah, he did say that that [46:33] demons aren't fallen angels. [46:35] >> I said they aren't necessarily [46:37] >> Oh, [46:37] >> fallen angels. [46:38] >> Okay. They could just be uh employees [46:41] from the DMV. [46:42] >> What wandered out into the real world? [46:45] >> What I'm referring to is if you if you [46:48] know your Bible much at all, you you [46:49] might realize that in the Old Testament [46:51] doesn't talk about demons. [46:53] >> It's not really discussed. [46:54] >> It was edited. It was censored. But you [46:56] get to the gospels and they're all over [46:57] the place. [46:58] >> Yeah. [46:58] >> And so like what happened and a lot of [47:00] scholars recognize that somewhere [47:02] between the writing of the two [47:03] testaments which is about a 400year span [47:05] of time [47:06] >> demons were invented. Judaism developed [47:08] a lot of there were a lot of other [47:09] writings within Judaism and a lot of um [47:12] detailed [47:13] theology developed around these topics [47:16] and the book of Enoch which is uh an [47:19] apocryphal book which is not in the [47:20] Protestant Bible uh talks about the [47:23] origin of demons and it pulls from the [47:26] story of the flood in Genesis chapter 6 [47:29] before the flood uh it says that the [47:32] sons of God which are some kind of uh [47:35] spiritual beings [47:37] saw that the women on Earth were pretty [47:39] attractive and they decided to, [47:41] >> you know, [47:42] >> at least the ones that weren't shaped [47:43] like gourds, [47:44] >> right? So they they ended up conceiving [47:46] children with human women and the hybrid [47:49] spiritual being, human being things were [47:51] known as the Nephilim, which is a Hebrew [47:53] word which means the fallen ones, which [47:55] were great warrior giant kind of people [47:58] things. It gets in all kinds of other [48:00] myth and that part of the reason for the [48:01] flood was because of this act of [48:04] defiance against God. And it the book of [48:06] Enoch, [48:07] >> was that was that is that stated [48:08] explicitly in the book of Enoch or was [48:10] that developed out of the book of Eno? [48:12] >> It was in Genesis 6 that this is part of [48:15] what leads to the flood. [48:17] >> Okay. So then Enoch picks this detail up [48:19] and says, and this I wouldn't say is, [48:22] you know, scriptural truth because it's [48:23] apocryphal, but the book of Enoch [48:24] written before the gospels says that God [48:27] punished the fallen [48:30] angelic beings that had intercourse with [48:32] women and lock them up in the abyss. [48:36] And the Nephilim, most of whom were [48:38] destroyed by the flood, that their [48:39] spirits roam the earth. [48:41] >> Oh. and that it's actually the spirits [48:43] of the Nephilim, which are these human [48:45] human angelic hybrid creatures. [48:47] >> I don't like that. [48:48] >> That are the demonic spirits that infect [48:50] the world. [48:50] >> That's a horror movie. I don't like it. [48:52] >> And part of what's interesting about the [48:53] argument is the most common way of of [48:56] describing demonic spirits in the [48:58] gospels in Greek is an unclean spirit. [49:02] And a lot of times in the Hebrew Bible, [49:03] something that is unclean is usually the [49:05] mixture of two things that don't belong [49:06] together. [49:07] >> Oh. So the mixture of human and [49:10] spiritual beings would kind of lend [49:12] itself to that the demonic are not [49:15] fallen angels per se. They're the fallen [49:18] offspring of angelic creatures and human [49:20] women, [49:21] >> which is really weird. It's all very [49:22] weird. [49:23] >> It's all very weird. [49:24] >> And I'm not again I'm not hanging my hat [49:25] on any of this, but [49:26] >> but fun fact to know there's such weird [49:28] stuff. [49:28] >> It is. And so the the the popular trope [49:31] that demons are or demons are uh fallen [49:35] angels, it's not it's not really there [49:38] in scripture, okay, that that's what [49:40] they are, [49:41] >> but they could be. They could be, but [49:42] Enoch has this more elaborate [49:44] explanation. [49:45] >> It is. I do I'll be the one that gives [49:47] the little plug for like a lot of [49:48] Christians who are a lot of Christian [49:49] history have thought and said this in [49:50] their interpretations of the Old [49:51] Testament, which does not mean it is [49:53] true, but does mean Sky might be wrong. [49:55] >> No, I'm not I'm not saying I'm not [49:56] taking a stand here. I'm saying that The [49:59] history is more complicated. [50:00] >> Might be fallen angels. [50:02] >> Could be. [50:02] >> I said not not necessarily. [50:04] >> Could be the the disembodied [50:08] souls of the offspring of women and [50:12] angels. [50:13] >> Yeah. I wouldn't say angels. [50:15] >> The what? [50:16] >> But because the word angel the angel [50:19] means messenger and there's a lot of [50:21] spiritual beings that aren't angels. [50:23] >> Oh, okay. So, so they might be the [50:26] disembodied souls of the children of [50:30] human women and spiritual beings. [50:33] >> Correct. [50:34] >> It's just that's a lot longer story. [50:36] >> Yeah. It's a it's there's lots of [50:37] YouTube videos on this. Michael Heiser's [50:39] written all kinds of stuff on this. I [50:40] mean, [50:40] >> I don't know that you should encourage. [50:41] >> Yeah. No, no, no. I'm like there's some [50:43] great YouTube videos about bizarre [50:45] things. [50:46] >> If you look up Michael Heiser, who's [50:47] written a lot on this stuff, he's [50:49] probably one of the more credible [50:50] scholars on these kinds of things. I do [50:52] think some people because they're always [50:54] looking for what's new and novel and [50:55] weird and other people don't know. They [50:56] get really enamored, they get really [50:58] enamored with apocryphal writings going, [51:00] "Oh, this is the key that unlocks the [51:01] whole totally." [51:02] >> Eh, not necessarily. It is a curious bit [51:05] of history, though. So, [51:06] >> it is curious. [51:07] >> Yeah. [51:08] >> I'm sure everyone feels much more [51:10] settled. Now, [51:12] >> the fact that this is not included in [51:14] detail in the New Testament tells me [51:15] it's probably not as central to your [51:16] faith that you know or understand any of [51:18] this. So, don't worry about But the idea [51:20] that there are spiritual entities at [51:22] work completely biblical. [51:25] >> Yeah. [51:26] >> Yeah. Completely. Okay. Okay. [51:29] >> Okay. Um, did you read that question? [51:31] You read that question. Your turn. I'm [51:33] so good at remembering whose turn it is. [51:35] I'm glad I'm in charge. [51:37] >> Kayn, [51:38] >> um, at what point does the value of [51:40] pluralism become antithetical to the [51:43] value of desiring all people to know [51:45] Jesus? I agree pluralism is a foundation [51:47] of this country and we should live [51:49] respectfully and kindly with our [51:50] neighbors. I agree that force of or [51:52] coercion should not be used in getting [51:54] people to align with Christ and his [51:56] values. But I also do want people to [51:58] know Christ and I do wish that everyone [51:59] followed him. Do you ever feel like the [52:01] high value you have placed on pluralism [52:03] is against that belief. [52:04] >> Oh, let me rephrase it. Do you sometimes [52:07] find yourself wishing people wouldn't [52:09] come to Christ so they can stay more [52:11] pluralistic? [52:13] >> No. No. [52:13] >> No. Okay, hold on a second. I don't I I [52:16] saw this question as well and I didn't [52:17] quite understand it. Maybe I'm dense. [52:20] >> I took it to mean while the person [52:23] asking it agrees in pluralism as kind of [52:26] a value for a country with a diverse set [52:29] of religious beliefs and we as [52:31] Christians can hold it to the extent [52:33] that we want to to respect uh the [52:35] dignity and value of humans that do not [52:37] share our religious beliefs. Does living [52:40] in that mindset over time lead you to [52:44] not actually so deeply desire that [52:46] everyone follow him? Like is there some [52:48] tension in your mind or practice when [52:51] you're trying to hold these two things [52:52] at the same time? [52:54] >> Okay. [52:55] Obviously, or maybe not obviously, but [52:57] obviously to me I want people to know [53:00] Christ, [53:01] >> right? In order for people to come to [53:03] know Christ, there needs to be people [53:05] who don't know Christ, [53:07] but only for a little bit. And in order [53:11] for you to be able to express the [53:14] message of Christianity, people don't [53:15] know Christ, then you need to be in a [53:16] community that's diverse. [53:18] >> Yeah. [53:19] >> So, I don't see how these are in [53:20] opposition to each other. You can't have [53:22] a mission without a mission field. And [53:24] the fact that the United States is one [53:25] of the most diverse and pluralistic [53:27] countries that has ever existed in the [53:28] history of the world. The church should [53:31] celebrate that that we happen to have [53:32] the nations at our doorstep [53:35] >> through whom we get to display the love [53:37] of Christ. [53:38] >> But okay, frame the question this way. [53:40] If we're celebrating religious [53:42] diversity, then is our evangelism [53:46] working against what we're celebrating? [53:48] Or are we not celebrating religious [53:50] diversity? [53:50] >> I'm not. I'm celebrating the fact that [53:52] God has brought these people into my [53:54] life and into my community and into my [53:56] neighborhood that I might love them and [53:58] express to them the love of Christ. [53:59] Yeah. [54:00] >> I think that's a great thing. [54:01] >> Okay. [54:01] >> Yeah. And I think we should celebrate [54:03] the good, the like provisional good but [54:06] still good of a society that respects [54:09] people's different religious beliefs [54:11] without celebrating the fact that people [54:14] have different religious beliefs. Right? [54:15] I also think implicit in this question [54:17] which is why I picked it. This is such a [54:20] common I think underlying assumption [54:22] when it comes to pluralism is and it's [54:24] because this is explicitly what some [54:26] people who are supportive and really [54:27] vocal about pluralism mean which is that [54:30] they want to live in a society where [54:31] people have different political not [54:32] political different religious views [54:34] >> but they also want no one to talk about [54:37] their religious views that they that [54:38] they differ from others with and I do [54:41] think you have to be careful when you [54:42] are in you know interfaith contexts or [54:45] political contexts that really value [54:47] pluralism that You agree with those [54:50] people that to your point Sky living in [54:53] a diverse pluralistic society is a in a [54:55] strange way a gift to you as a [54:57] Christian. You want to celebrate with [54:58] them the fact that we live in a [55:00] political society that doesn't use [55:01] coercion to force people to all believe [55:03] the same thing religiously. [55:05] >> But you want to stop short of agreeing [55:06] with them that religious difference in [55:09] and of itself is good because all [55:11] beliefs are equally valid and no one [55:13] should really kind of try and convince [55:15] anyone of believing anything different [55:16] religiously. There are a lot of [55:18] pluralistic, you know, organizations, [55:21] groups that at the end of the day [55:23] basically do say like what does any of [55:25] the difference really matter? You [55:26] shouldn't really be evangelizing anyone. [55:29] And I do think you have to stop short of [55:31] like I'm with you in a certain way of [55:33] valuing pluralism. I'm not with you in [55:35] the let's not talk about our [55:37] differences. Doesn't really matter that [55:38] we believe anything different. And [55:40] actually some of in our country's [55:42] history some of the people who have most [55:44] strongly valued pluralism have been [55:46] people who said and we should be honest [55:48] with each other about our deep [55:50] differences and we should it's actually [55:52] the much harder task for pluralism is [55:53] not what we've often reduced it to which [55:56] is we all live with each other and we [55:58] don't talk about our religious [55:59] differences. The much harder task for [56:00] pluralism is we talk about our religious [56:02] differences, including with people who [56:04] mutually think the other one is going to [56:07] hell and like really trying to find a [56:09] way to both want the other person to [56:11] believe your religious beliefs without [56:12] hating them or coercing them or not [56:14] being able to live in community with [56:15] them. That's a much richer form of [56:17] pluralism that says like I believe you [56:19] are deeply wrong. I believe there are [56:21] stakes to what we believe and I want you [56:22] to believe what I believe because I [56:23] think it is right, [56:25] >> but I'm not going to kill or coers you [56:26] to make that happen. I I think an [56:27] interesting metaphor would be economics [56:30] >> and and that is a free market system [56:32] says everyone should be able to create a [56:34] product and compete in the marketplace [56:36] and that actually ends up producing [56:38] better products. [56:39] >> There's competition. Similarly, in a [56:41] pluralistic society of different [56:43] religious and and worldview ideas in a [56:45] free market you not it isn't just a [56:47] place where you're allowed to believe [56:48] different things. It's also a [56:50] marketplace in which you're allowed to [56:51] persuade one another of the strength of [56:53] your belief or the weakness of anothers. [56:55] And in that environment, I trust that [56:58] the beauty and goodness of the gospel [57:00] shines brightly. [57:02] >> And so I am not threatened by diversity. [57:04] Just as if you have a a fantastic [57:06] product, you're not threatened by [57:07] competition because it only makes your [57:09] product better. [57:10] >> Yeah. And that's where I think people [57:12] who have very weak faith or weak [57:14] confidence in the gospel or weak [57:16] confidence in the in the kingdom of God [57:18] are very threatened by pluralism because [57:20] they don't think their faith or [57:22] Christianity can withstand the challenge [57:24] of having a neighbor who's an atheist or [57:26] a Muslim or Hindu or whatever. [57:28] >> There is some uh unseemly history of [57:32] religious groups trying to persuade [57:34] other people to change their views. [57:38] persuade in a manner that respects the [57:40] dignity of your neighbor. Right? [57:42] >> This is what's frustrating is when it [57:43] feels like the two options available to [57:44] you in some corners are out of respect, [57:47] do not [57:49] >> you know do not evangelize at all [57:50] because that is inherently to disrespect [57:52] people or [57:54] >> because if you earnestly desire [57:56] someone's salvation, do absolutely [57:58] anything to force what is ultimately [58:00] like a false conversion. There is an [58:02] alternative to both of those options [58:03] which is out of love for people and with [58:05] respect for the fact that they might not [58:07] ultimately agree with you still share [58:08] what you believe is ultimately true. I I [58:10] think a pluralism also leads to a [58:12] humbler form of Christianity because as [58:14] you engage with your neighbors who [58:15] believe something very differently and [58:17] you realize there's elements of what [58:18] they hold to which is good and true and [58:21] beautiful and inspiring and they are [58:22] lovely people who are like it humbles [58:24] you to realize I don't have [58:27] >> you know the the market cornered on all [58:31] truth and that should [58:33] >> bring a a a a good dose of humility to [58:36] the church that it often lacks where [58:38] there is no other viewpoint ever. Amen. [58:41] And amen. Last question. Did you ask [58:43] that one? [58:43] >> Yeah. [58:44] >> So, it's my turn. Great. Oh, I'm so good [58:46] at this. [58:47] >> Phil shared his flannel shirt routine. [58:49] Phil shared his flannel shirt rotation [58:52] routine. What other quirky, fun, or [58:54] little known habits does Phil have? And [58:56] could all please share some of theirs? [58:59] >> Oh, I thought we were all going to get [59:00] to share some of yours. [59:01] >> You could do that, too. If you don't [59:04] think you have um [59:07] >> Yeah. Do you want to think of one first [59:10] or should I go first with my better [59:12] self-nowledge? [59:13] >> I need I didn't see this question. I [59:14] have no prepared answer. [59:15] >> You have no prepared answer. Um, I hum I [59:19] hum constantly, sometimes silently, but [59:23] I'm almost always humming if I'm awake. [59:27] There's a song and I early in my career [59:30] I was working as a grip driving on a [59:33] production truck to go to shoots for [59:35] industrial training videos and the guy [59:38] that I often was sent out with finally [59:41] turned to me one day and said so [59:44] whenever and this is I'm 19 I think so [59:47] whenever you don't have anything to say [59:49] you put on a record [59:51] and I said oh I guess I do [59:54] >> that's and I've done that all my life [59:56] and I and I always will. If I have no [59:58] music playing in my head or humming, [60:02] >> uh, my like my energy drops very very [60:07] low and I can almost turn into a sloth [60:11] from Zootopia at the DMV. So, I need I [60:15] need music. [60:16] >> All right. [60:17] >> Yeah. Okay. [60:18] >> Yeah. You got any [60:19] >> What are your weirdnesses? [60:21] >> I have so many, but I'll just I'm not [60:22] going to mention all of them. Uh, the [60:24] office knows this. In the winter time, I [60:26] wear slippers a lot. I'm wearing them [60:28] right now. [60:29] >> Oh, look. I got slippers. Guy's wearing [60:31] slippers. How weird. [60:33] >> I know. I don't I don't like wearing [60:35] like boots and big shoes. So, when I [60:37] >> Are slippers meant to be worn? [60:39] >> Yes. [60:39] >> Yeah. But like I at the office. [60:41] >> At the office. [60:42] >> At the office. I come into the office. [60:43] >> I was going to That's the crucial part. [60:44] What you just told everyone was like, [60:46] I'm a weirdo who wears slippers. [60:47] >> No, no, no. I come into the office, I [60:49] take off my shoes or my boots and I put [60:51] slippers on all the way. He also wears [60:52] bathroes around the office and that [60:54] >> I actually do really like bathroes in [60:56] his pajamas. [60:56] >> I'm kind of It's It's a little bit like [60:58] Hugh Hefner. I guess I like bathroes. [61:00] >> Oh my gosh. We don't need to smoking [61:01] jackets. [61:02] >> Yeah. I don't think we want to relate [61:04] any [61:04] >> Not at the office. [61:05] >> Any of us or even at home? I don't want [61:08] to think of you in light of Hugh Hefner. [61:10] No. No. No. [61:11] >> Okay. [61:12] >> Caitlyn. [61:12] >> Kaitlin. [61:14] >> I think I'm pretty normal. A [61:16] >> I don't know that I [61:17] >> That's so cute. You're nuts. [61:19] >> It's so cute. [61:20] >> I Okay, maybe one weird thing. [61:23] >> I I will probably change my outfit at [61:25] least once a day, [61:27] >> if not most. Don't most people day. [61:29] >> No, I don't mean into pajamas. I mean [61:31] like I just want an outfit change. Like, [61:34] >> you know, I'll wear an outfit to work, [61:35] then I want to wear a different outfit [61:36] for like the evening. Even if I'm not [61:38] doing anything fancy, it just feels like [61:39] I should [61:40] >> put a new cuz I have a lot of clothes [61:42] and I want to have a new outfit. Feels [61:44] like I should have a new outfit. [61:45] >> It's like a costume change. [61:46] >> It's like a costume. I like a multiple [61:48] costume change day. [61:49] >> Yeah. So, if you were uh if you were a [61:53] singer songwriter and you were doing a [61:55] twohour show, how many costume changes [61:58] would there be? [61:59] >> Allah Taylor Swift. Like so many. So [62:01] many. [62:01] >> Yeah. At one a song maybe. [62:03] >> Oh wow. [62:04] >> The more costumes the better. The more [62:06] outfit changes the better. The more [62:07] dresses the better. It feels Yeah. [62:09] Exactly. [62:09] >> A little bit like we're playing into [62:11] gender stereotypes. Well, sometimes [62:13] they're true for individual people. [62:15] >> Yeah. [62:16] >> Okay. But we shouldn't draw any broad [62:18] conclusions. [62:18] >> Well, I we didn't answer this question, [62:20] but there was some there was a woman who [62:21] wrote in saying, "I love Phil's routine [62:24] of wearing the same thing. What's the [62:26] female equivalent? [62:27] >> Can women do that, too?" [62:28] >> And I'm like, I'm sure you can. I will [62:30] not be doing that, but women can do it. [62:32] That's the power of feminism. [62:33] >> Isn't that kind of Puritanism? Like they [62:35] all use words. [62:35] >> I love that for this woman. Happy for [62:37] her. Yeah. [62:37] >> Yeah. Okay. Okay. So, last thing we're [62:40] going to do is um briefly because we [62:44] don't want to go too long. [62:46] >> I have my nail appointment to get to. [62:48] >> What time? How much time you got? [62:50] >> Five minutes. [62:51] >> That's it. You got five minutes. [62:53] Whatever. We could do whatever. [62:54] >> Holy cow. We got to go fast. Um what's [62:57] one observation you'd like to say about [62:59] 2025 [63:01] >> and then looking forward to 2026? [63:04] What what did you see in 2025 and what [63:07] do you hope to see in 2026 or predict to [63:10] see in 2026? Should I go first since I [63:12] apparently am the only one who thought [63:13] about this in advance? [63:15] >> Okay. [63:16] >> I would say in 2025 [63:19] America and this is you'd have to kind [63:22] of condition this because you'll say ah [63:24] it's not really true but I'm going to [63:26] say it anyway. America became [63:28] marketkedly less Christian, not in [63:30] demographics, but in behavior, and the [63:34] majority of Christians supported it. [63:37] That is upsetting to me. [63:40] >> Um, the things we supported that the [63:42] administration was doing that are [63:44] dramatically [63:46] uncchristian [63:48] makes America less Christian. Even while [63:51] we were saying we were doing it to make [63:52] America more Christian, I believe the [63:54] opposite was true. Okay, 2026. I am [63:57] praying for enough public revulsion and [63:59] Christian conscience to break the hold [64:02] of the hate. [64:05] >> Challenge for 2026. Many Christians have [64:07] been raised to believe a vote against a [64:09] Republican candidate is a vote against [64:11] God. 2026 is an election year that [64:14] anything a Republican president or [64:16] candidate could do um couldn't be as bad [64:20] as what a Democratic candidate would do. [64:23] So, how revol revolted do we need to be [64:29] to overcome our programming that Yeah, [64:32] but I still can't vote against the [64:35] Republican candidate. [64:37] >> That's what I'm curious about 2026. [64:39] >> Okay. [64:40] >> Okay. [64:40] >> All right. [64:40] >> Okay. Who wants to go next since you had [64:43] they've now had [64:44] >> I'm ready for it. [64:45] >> 120 seconds to prepare. [64:46] >> Yeah. You clearly wrote something in [64:48] advance. So, [64:48] >> No, I didn't. I'm [64:49] >> He did his homework. I don't think we [64:50] can fail. [64:51] >> I'm just going to go off the cuff here. [64:53] Slightly related to yours. [64:54] >> Put it in the Slack channel. [64:55] >> Whatever. Slightly related to yours, [64:56] Phil. [64:57] >> Yeah. [64:57] >> Uh I think 2025 saw the MAGA movement [65:01] jump the shark. [65:02] >> Oh, [65:03] >> I think Okay. [65:04] >> Does you know what that means? [65:05] >> Yes. Okay. [65:06] >> Oh, I don't know if she does. [65:07] >> Uh keep talking. [65:08] >> Okay. My prediction my prediction for [65:11] 2026 [65:12] is that [65:14] uh on the way having jumped the shark on [65:17] the way down I think 2026 will put the [65:20] nail in the coffin of the MAGA movement [65:23] when the economy implodes [65:26] and that will be what finally turn [65:28] people to the fact that that Donald [65:31] Trump and his uh clown car of adviserss [65:34] have driven this country and its economy [65:36] off you don't think enough Christians [65:40] can be swayed by moral revulsion. [65:43] >> No. [65:43] >> No, [65:44] >> I don't. [65:45] >> But I think when the economic revulsion [65:47] comes in, they will be persuaded. [65:49] >> Okay. [65:50] >> Okay. [65:50] >> Kaitlin, what do you think? [65:53] >> A correlary to both of yours. When I [65:55] think about 2025, I think about both how [65:58] often we talked about the loneliness [66:00] crisis and the lack of community, which [66:02] has been true for a long time. I mean [66:03] many of the articles that we referenced [66:05] and the scholars that we talked about [66:07] have been charting this for a while but [66:10] I think that's related to in a weird way [66:14] the counter but also the kind of like [66:15] compliment to your point about uh less [66:18] Christian is a lot of interest not just [66:20] in spiritual ideas but from surprising [66:23] places interest in [66:25] traditional religion and I think that [66:28] makes sense that as people feel the [66:30] effects of the loneliness ep epidemic of [66:33] a loss of structured community, of [66:37] feeling rootless in the world. They are [66:39] drawn to not just the community, but I [66:42] feel like we've seen even some pretty [66:43] high-profile left-leaning secular people [66:46] go, there's something about historic [66:48] Christian teachings that is interesting [66:50] to me. And that's different than the I'm [66:52] getting on the bandwagon because of [66:54] Trump kind of thing. So, I just think [66:55] that's something to continue to watch, [66:58] something that I'm interested in. Um, [67:00] when it comes to 2026, [67:03] one definite prediction I have is that I [67:04] will get married. So, [67:06] >> wait, what? [67:07] >> That's pretty exciting. [67:08] >> You're you're you're making that [67:09] announcement publicly. Wait, is that why [67:11] you weren't here last week? [67:13] >> Yeah, I that's Yeah. [67:14] >> Is that why you weren't I didn't know [67:16] that. [67:17] >> You didn't know that. [67:18] >> I didn't know that. [67:20] >> Kayn's engaged. [67:22] >> Yeah. [67:23] >> So, of every bad prediction we could [67:24] make for 2026, and we could make a lot [67:26] of bad ones. Yeah. I'm pretty sure one [67:28] very good thing will happen. So, [67:31] >> what will we be invited? [67:32] >> Yeah. Oh, you guys are officiating the [67:34] wedding together. [67:35] >> Oh, okay. [67:36] >> Actually, Skye's officiating the wedding [67:38] and you're going to give me away. [67:40] >> Wow. [67:42] >> Because I used to be ordained and you [67:44] are old enough to be her father. You [67:45] are? Yeah. [67:46] >> Yeah. I I am. I would I would like to [67:48] co-officiate, but I will do it with a [67:51] puppet. [67:52] >> Oh my gosh. [67:52] >> How about that? I co-officiated a [67:54] wedding once. Did not go well. [67:56] >> No. Because because I think what would [67:58] be fun about you guys co-officiating is [68:00] it there would be some like old married [68:01] couple banter [68:02] >> probably. I don't think anyone wants [68:03] that at their wedding. For all the key [68:05] parts that you have to say, we should [68:07] say each other word. [68:10] Every other word we go back and forth. I [68:13] think that would be meaningful, [68:15] >> profound, and because it would [68:16] demonstrate [68:17] >> the the interweaving of your lives, [68:21] >> right? when we inter interweave our [68:24] dialogue [68:25] >> toward you. [68:27] >> Wow. [68:27] >> Okay. We're going to have uh it's going [68:30] to be like like Princess Dyy's wedding. [68:32] It's going to be huge. We're going to [68:34] cover it uh live streaming 24/7 for [68:38] about a week [68:39] >> as we follow you around wall to wall [68:42] coverage. [68:42] >> Yeah. It's going to be a destination [68:43] wedding probably in Tahiti. We'll be [68:46] there. We'll bring the whole crew. We'll [68:47] have guests to like, you know, give um [68:49] commentary on various outfits, dresses. [68:52] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Who's the Who's the [68:54] fashion correspondent? Who's the [68:55] evangelical equivalent of Joan Rivers? [68:57] >> Oh my gosh. [68:59] >> That's Tammy Fay Baker. [69:00] >> She's dead. She's dead. [69:02] >> No. [69:02] >> So, she is like Joan Rivers. [69:04] >> Oh, [69:06] merry Christmas everybody. [69:09] >> We made it through 2025. We couldn't [69:12] have done it without your support. So, [69:13] we really appreciate it. and we're going [69:16] to make more stuff in 2026. It's going [69:18] to be fantastic. We've got new ideas [69:20] that we're pursuing. Things are going to [69:22] get, I don't know, I'd say interesting, [69:25] especially since it's an election year. [69:27] This is going to get real interesting. [69:28] So, we'll see you in January. We will [69:31] have a show next week from uh Holy Post [69:34] Plus, something exclusive for Holy Post [69:35] Plus that we will let everybody see. And [69:38] boy, is that going to be exciting. And [69:40] we'll see you next year. Bye. [69:43] >> Hi everyone. I hate doing this, but our [69:45] producer Mike is making me tell you to [69:47] like and subscribe so that you can see [69:49] more Holy Post videos and other people [69:51] can see them, too.