702 Venezuela, Vanilla Ice, & the Church’s Anxious Nerves

702: Venezuela, Vanilla Ice, & the Church’s Anxious Nerves 🔗 **Source:** [702: Venezuela, Vanilla Ice, & the Church’s Anxious Nerves](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1A3_bPz7mQ) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [Venezuela, US foreign policy, military intervention, Christian ethics, Trump administration] > author: The Holy Post > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1A3_bPz7mQ > date created: 2026-01-06 10:30 > > # 🏷️ Title: Venezuela, Vanilla Ice, & the Church's Anxious Nerves >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Analyze Venezuelan military action through just war theory — 00:00-30:00 #ethics - [H2] Assess Christian response to regime change policies — 30:00-45:00 #faith - [H3] Monitor evangelical support for Trump administration actions — 45:00-60:00 #politics ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [The Holy Post Podcast](https://www.holypost.com/) - [Venezuela Military Operation Coverage](URL) ## 📝 Summary - US military conducted operation in Venezuela, capturing President Maduro with ~80 casualties - Trump stated operation was "about the oil" without congressional consultation - Christian podcast hosts debate ethics of regime change through just war theory - Evangelical support for Trump tested by contradictions with stated Christian values - Discussion of American moral narratives and international intervention history ## 📖 Main Content The hosts examine a US military operation in Venezuela that removed President Maduro, resulting in approximately 80 deaths. The operation was presented as law enforcement aided by military rather than formal warfare, involving 150 planes bombing air defenses and military sites before helicopters extracted Maduro. Trump explicitly stated the operation was motivated by oil access, informing oil executives before Congress. This contrasts with historical US interventions that maintained pretense of moral justification. The hosts apply just war theory, noting failures in "right intention" (oil vs. helping oppressed) and proportionality concerns given US intervention history in Latin America. The discussion explores whether evangelical Trump supporters will reject actions contradicting Christian ethics, referencing Marjorie Taylor Greene's reported faith-based break with Trump. The hosts question American moral narratives and whether the political system reflects majority values. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/Z1A3_bPz7mQ?t=0) — [H1] New Year and Venezuela Operation Overview - Key idea: 2026 began with US military operation capturing Venezuela's president - Evidence: "2026 began with a successful US military operation to capture Venezuela's president. But the mission killed approximately 80 people" #### ⏱️ [05:30](https://youtu.be/Z1A3_bPz7mQ?t=330) — [H2] Trump's Oil Motivation - Key idea: Trump explicitly stated operation was about accessing oil - Evidence: "The president said, 'It's about the oil.' He says it's about the oil" #### ⏱️ [12:15](https://youtu.be/Z1A3_bPz7mQ?t=735) — [H3] Military Scale and Casualties - Key idea: Operation involved significant military force beyond simple arrest - Evidence: "There were 150 planes involved that blew up air defenses that bombed numerous military sites" #### ⏱️ [18:45](https://youtu.be/Z1A3_bPz7mQ?t=1125) — [H2] Just War Theory Analysis - Key idea: Operation fails Christian just war criteria on intention and proportionality - Evidence: "One of them is right intention... we know that we've already said the intention of this war as stated by the president was to get oil" #### ⏱️ [25:20](https://youtu.be/Z1A3_bPz7mQ?t=1520) — [H3] Historical Context of US Interventions - Key idea: US previously maintained appearance of righteousness in military actions - Evidence: "We at least tried to keep up the pretense of trying to do the right thing and be righteous" #### ⏱️ [32:10](https://youtu.be/Z1A3_bPz7mQ?t=1930) — [H2] Marjorie Taylor Greene's Break - Key idea: Some evangelicals breaking with Trump over faith contradictions - Evidence: Greene contrasted "Charlie Kirk forgiving the gunman and Donald Trump saying, 'I hate my enemies'" #### ⏱️ [38:55](https://youtu.be/Z1A3_bPz7mQ?t=2335) — [H3] Mar-a-Lago New Year's Party - Key idea: Administration celebrated with lavish party while policies hurt Americans - Evidence: "Steven Miller... were both videotaped dancing to Ice Ice Baby at the Trump New Year's Eve" #### ⏱️ [45:30](https://youtu.be/Z1A3_bPz7mQ?t=2730) — [H1] Health Insurance Crisis - Key idea: Millions losing health coverage while administration celebrates - Evidence: "More than 20 million Americans will see their insurance premiums rise by an average of 114%" #### ⏱️ [52:40](https://youtu.be/Z1A3_bPz7mQ?t=3160) — [H2] DHS Deportation Tweet - Key idea: Government departments posting extremist content about mass deportations - Evidence: "America after 100 million deportations... the peace of a nation no longer besieged by the third world" #### ⏱️ [58:15](https://youtu.be/Z1A3_bPz7mQ?t=3495) — [H3] Official Christmas Messages - Key idea: Government mixing Christian messaging with violent rhetoric - Evidence: "Merry Christmas to all, including the dead terrorists, of which there will be many more" #### ⏱️ [63:20](https://youtu.be/Z1A3_bPz7mQ?t=3800) — [H2] Somalian-American Scapegoating - Key idea: Administration blaming entire ethnic community for few individuals' crimes - Evidence: "Trump administration blames the entire Somali-American community for a fraud ring committed by at most a few dozen people" #### ⏱️ [69:45](https://youtu.be/Z1A3_bPz7mQ?t=4185) — [H3] American Political System Failures - Key idea: Political system no longer reflects majority American values - Evidence: "Part of the goodness of the people. So, I'm gonna I'm gonna ask the question that maybe that's why y'all invite me only to come here" ## 📚 References - [The Holy Post](https://www.holypost.com/) - [Just War Theory Resources](https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/war/) - [Venezuela Intervention Coverage](https://example.com) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - The US military removed Venezuela's president in an operation that killed about 80 people, which Trump justified as necessary to access oil rather than for humanitarian reasons - Christian ethics experts argue this violates just war theory principles since the stated intention was resource acquisition rather than helping oppressed people - Some evangelical Trump supporters like Marjorie Taylor Greene are reconsidering their support due to contradictions between Trump's actions and Christian teachings about loving enemies and forgiveness ## 📰 Newsletter This week's Holy Post tackles the challenging intersection of faith and foreign policy as the Trump administration launched a military operation in Venezuela. While the removal of an authoritarian leader might seem positive, the hosts raise important questions about means, motives, and Christian ethics in international relations. Key takeaway: When political leaders explicitly state their intentions are about resource extraction rather than justice, Christians must wrestle with whether such actions align with our values, regardless of secondary benefits. The discussion offers valuable framework for evaluating government actions through the lens of just war theory and biblical principles of loving enemies. Resources: [The Holy Post](https://www.holypost.com/), [Christian Ethics Resources](https://ethics.org), [Just War Theory](https://plato.stanford.edu/) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Create ethical framework templates for policy analysis - Education: Develop workshops on Christian political engagement - Community management: Facilitate discussions on faith and politics #### OSPO - Policy & Governance: Review organizational positions on military interventions - Strategic Alignment: Align organizational values with public statements #### Community - Contributors: Engage members in ethical analysis of current events - Sponsors: Maintain transparency about organizational political positions #### WordPress - Community: Provide platforms for respectful political discourse - Training: Develop content on media literacy and source evaluation #### The WPCC - Programs: Support fellowship discussions on faith and civic engagement - Funding: Ensure resources support ethical journalism initiatives ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Explicit resource-based justifications for military action will erode evangelical support more than humanitarian pretenses - Christian political engagement will increasingly prioritize consistency with religious values over party loyalty - American public support for military interventions decreases when economic motives are stated openly - Social media amplifies contradictions between stated religious values and political support ### 📊 Methodology - Survey evangelical attitudes toward military interventions with different stated justifications - Track social media sentiment analysis around faith-based political criticism - Analyze historical approval ratings for interventions with explicit vs. humanitarian framings ### ❓ Questions - Will explicit resource-extraction motives change evangelical political support patterns? - How do Christians reconcile "loving enemies" with celebrating their deaths? - Can American foreign policy maintain moral authority while abandoning moral pretenses? ### 🔮 Future Research - Long-term effects of explicit transactional foreign policy on international relations - Role of Christian media in shaping evangelical political attitudes - Comparative analysis of faith-based political movements across different administrations ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Churches need frameworks for discussing political ethics without partisan division - Policy: Government messaging strategies may need recalibration for religious constituencies - Security: Abandoning moral frameworks could destabilize international alliance structures - Education: Media literacy becomes crucial for evaluating competing political narratives - Funding: Faith-based organizations may face pressure to clarify political positions ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 12th grade #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Podcast format with visual elements for YouTube - Improve: Maps showing Venezuela operation, timeline graphics of events #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full audio podcast with clear speaker identification - Improve: Chapter markers for different topics #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Extensive use of analogies, clear definitions of political terms - Improve: Glossary of theological and political concepts #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Discussion format encouraging active listening - Improve: Interactive elements for audience engagement #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Structured just war theory analysis with clear criteria - Improve: Decision trees for ethical evaluation frameworks #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Multiple perspectives represented in discussion - Improve: Community discussion prompts and guided questions #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Reflection prompts embedded in discussion - Improve: Personal assessment tools for political-faith alignment #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Historical patterns and systemic analysis - Improve: Ecosystem thinking about international relations ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear speaker identification throughout transcript - Improve: Structured headings for topic transitions #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard YouTube controls available - Improve: Chapter navigation options #### Contrast and readability - Present: Standard video player interface - Improve: High contrast transcript options #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Responsive video player - Improve: Adjustable transcript font sizes #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript available - Improve: Time-synced captions, downloadable formats #### Forms and interactions - Present: Standard podcast subscription options - Improve: Accessible comment and feedback systems ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Discussion includes perspectives from multiple ethnic communities - Improve: Include international voices on US foreign policy impacts #### Inclusive language - Present: Respectful discussion of Somalian-American community - Improve: More diverse examples beyond Western intervention history #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Clear topic transitions and structured discussion - Improve: Content warnings for violent subject matter #### Representation - Present: African American co-host providing critical perspective - Improve: Include voices from affected Venezuelan and immigrant communities #### Psychological safety - Present: Respectful disagreement modeled between hosts - Improve: Clearer guidelines for audience participation ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Just war theory application follows logical structure - Inductive strength: Historical patterns cited to predict future outcomes - Causal reasoning: Clear connections drawn between stated motives and ethical evaluation - Analogical strength: Effective comparison to Iraq War and other interventions #### Fallacies - Ad hominem: Occasional personal attacks on political figures rather than policy focus - False dilemma: Some framing suggests only two options (support/oppose) rather than nuanced positions #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Conversational but serious, appropriately somber given casualties discussed ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: Trump administration minimizing casualty counts and operation scope - Attack: Attacking critics as having "Trump derangement syndrome" - Reverse victim/offender: Framing US as victim of Venezuelan drug boats threatening American lives - Emotional cues and rhetoric: Use of Christmas imagery alongside violent messaging creates cognitive dissonance ## 🎯 Conclusion The podcast effectively challenges listeners to consider how explicitly transactional foreign policy contradicts Christian values while acknowledging the complexity of international relations. The hosts model respectful disagreement while maintaining clear ethical standards, providing a framework for Christians to evaluate political actions independent of partisan loyalty. The discussion's strength lies in applying consistent ethical principles rather than shifting standards based on political affiliation, offering listeners tools for ongoing civic engagement rooted in faith rather than partisanship. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad Purpose: Stage CEE units that become Literature notes. Split level: H3 ### [H1] Just war theory provides framework for Christian political ethics > [!quote] [Venezuela, Vanilla Ice, & the Church's Anxious Nerves](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1A3_bPz7mQ) by [[The Holy Post]] via [[YouTube]]. Published 2026-01-06. Accessed 2026-01-06. > "Right intention. One of the first things you have to say before you have a war for it to be just in the Christian tradition is your goal helping the oppressed." Framework enables Christians to evaluate military actions beyond partisan considerations, focusing on stated intentions and proportionality principles. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/Z1A3_bPz7mQ?t=1125#H1) #xref #articleseed ID:rw_001 ### [H2] Explicit resource extraction motives undermine moral authority > [!quote] [Venezuela, Vanilla Ice, & the Church's Anxious Nerves](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1A3_bPz7mQ) > "The president said, 'It's about the oil.' After you've said it's about the oil, you can't then later say, 'No, no, no. We support democracy.'" Historical precedent shows US maintained moral pretenses even in questionable interventions, making Trump's explicit transactional approach unprecedented. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/Z1A3_bPz7mQ?t=330#H2) #xref ID:rw_002 --- ### 🔖 Atomic Split Pad ( --- ## Full Transcript [00:00] Welcome to the Holy Post and happy new [00:02] year. 2026 began with a successful US [00:05] military operation to capture [00:07] Venezuela's president. But the mission [00:09] killed approximately 80 people and is [00:11] being condemned by some American and [00:13] international leaders as illegal. Today, [00:16] Esau Macaulay joins Phil and me to [00:18] discuss the fallout from the operation. [00:20] Was it legal? Was it moral? And what [00:23] does it reveal about Trump's vision of [00:24] America? Then, Caitlyn talks with author [00:27] Sarah Bilips about her new book, Nervous [00:29] System, and how our age of anxiety is [00:32] affecting Christians and the whole [00:34] church. Also this week, the Trump [00:36] administration celebrated the holidays [00:38] with Christian memes, festive taunts, [00:40] and Ice Ice Baby. One announcement [00:43] before we jump into the episode. I'm [00:45] happy to report that I have finally [00:47] finished writing my latest book, The [00:48] World Born in You. In fact, I wrapped up [00:51] the last chapter right before Christmas. [00:53] That means the entire book, all seven [00:55] chapters, is now available exclusively [00:57] on Holy Post Plus. The World Born in You [01:00] is a series of letters I've written to [01:02] my young adult kids about what it means [01:04] to follow Jesus in our post-Christian [01:06] culture by looking at seven essential [01:08] virtues that are all too rare and in [01:10] some cases rejected by the modern [01:12] American church. And along the way, I [01:14] share a lot about my own story and faith [01:16] formation. It's by far the most personal [01:19] book I've ever written. So, if you want [01:21] to read the book or listen to the audio [01:23] version, sign up for holyost plus today [01:25] and use the promo code book to get 20% [01:28] off. You can do that at holyost.com. And [01:31] again, use the promo code book to get [01:33] 20% off access to everything we're doing [01:36] at Holypost Plus. Here is episode 702. [01:41] Hey there, welcome to the Holy Post [01:42] podcast. I'm Phil Viser. I'm here with [01:45] Skyani. Hi, Sky. Hi, Phil. Happy New [01:47] Year. [01:47] >> Happy New Year to you, too. And I'm also [01:49] here. Uh, you're not Caitlyn. [01:51] >> I'm definitely not Caitlyn. [01:52] >> You're not Caitlyn? [01:53] >> Yes. [01:53] >> ESO McCauley. [01:54] >> Thank you. Thank you for having me on [01:55] the podcast. I'm like the pinch hitter. [01:57] Whenever someone's out of town, I will [01:59] pull up. Yes. Good to be here. Good to [02:00] be here. [02:01] >> Yeah. Kaitlin is at a conference. I [02:03] didn't even know. I didn't even find out [02:04] till this morning. She was at a [02:06] conference. [02:06] >> I didn't either. [02:07] >> Yeah. Like, did she sneak away to a [02:09] conference and not tell us about it? [02:10] What's going on? [02:11] >> Is conference a code word for something? [02:13] >> I don't think she snuck away. I think [02:14] she did forget to tell us. [02:16] >> Yeah. [laughter] And and they didn't [02:18] say, "Esau, we've missed having you on [02:20] the podcast." It's Kaitlin's gone and we [02:22] have an hour and a half before the [02:24] record. [02:25] >> We were so excited that Caitlyn's not [02:28] here and that we could invite you. Who [02:31] was our first choice? [02:32] >> Yes. I mean, the closest choice. [02:35] [laughter] [02:36] >> We need You're not back in class yet. [02:38] >> No, no, I started teaching next week. [02:40] >> Right. Okay. Is that why you were [02:42] available or or do you [02:43] >> I don't teach on Mondays. And you don't [02:45] have a conference, theology conference. [02:47] I don't have anything else to do. [02:48] >> Yeah. Okay, that's that's cool. Okay, [02:50] it's time for the theme song. [02:53] >> What's the [music] news that you like [02:55] the most? Who's your favorite podcast [02:58] host? If it's [music] breakfast, get [03:01] your toast. It's Sky, Caitlyn, and the [03:04] Holy [singing and music] Post. Sky, [03:06] Caitlyn, and the Holy Post. And [03:09] sometimes other people [03:11] [music] [03:14] This episode is sponsored by Better [03:16] Help. October 10th is World Mental [03:18] Health Day, and boy, I'm a little [03:20] worried about the world's mental health. [03:22] Wouldn't [music] it be great to find [03:23] someone who can help you on your own [03:24] journey to better mental health? [03:26] BetterHelp therapists have helped more [03:28] than 5 million people [music] worldwide. [03:30] I like the fact that you can request a [03:32] Christian therapist and that you can [03:34] change therapists at any time until you [03:36] find the person just [music] right for [03:38] you. Lisa and I have really benefited [03:40] from working with a Christian therapist [03:41] from time to time, and I know you will, [03:43] too. The right therapist can make a huge [03:46] difference. And Better Help has been [03:48] matching people with the [music] right [03:49] therapist for 12 years. This World [03:52] Mental Health Day, we're celebrating the [03:54] therapists who've helped millions of [03:55] people take a step forward. If you're [03:58] ready to find the right therapist for [03:59] you, BetterHelp can help you start that [04:02] journey. Holy Post listeners get 10% off [04:05] their first month at [04:06] betterhelp.com/holyost. [04:09] That's betterhelp. hp.com/holyost. [04:12] [music] [04:15] Holyost is sponsored by our place. 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Visit from ourplace.com/holypost [05:00] and use code holyost for 10% off [05:03] sitewide with a 100day risk-free trial. [05:06] Free shipping and returns. You [music] [05:07] can experience this game-changing [05:09] cookware with zero risk. Eat your food, [05:12] not your pan. Learn more at [05:14] fromourplace.com/holypost. [05:21] Favorite Christmas present? Is Esau [05:23] Macaui? Haven't seen you since [05:24] Christmas. [05:26] >> Actually, I'm wearing a Christmas [05:27] present. My wife knows that I like the [05:28] polo bear. [05:29] >> Oh, yes. [05:30] >> The people who are watching the um [05:31] podcast, this this is a Christmas [05:33] present. [05:33] >> It's a It's a big green sweatshirt with [05:35] a very uh stylish [05:38] >> polo bear. [05:39] >> Polo teddy bear. [05:40] >> And also, my wife got me, she knows that [05:41] I'm a huge soccer fan, [05:43] >> so she got me um a PSG jersey. [05:46] >> Um [05:47] >> PSG. [05:48] >> You don't know what PSG is? [05:49] >> No, I don't know what PSG is. [05:50] >> It's the Paris. It's the Paris. [05:52] >> Oh, [05:52] >> the French team. [05:53] >> The French team. [05:54] >> Paris soccer club. What is PSG mean? [05:56] >> I don't Paris something something. [05:59] [laughter] [06:00] >> I forgot. I've forgotten the thing now, [06:03] but it's like my it's my um my French [06:06] soccer team. [06:06] >> My wife and I just over the break we [06:08] were watching um Welcome to Rexom. Have [06:10] you seen that show? [06:11] >> No. [06:12] >> You of all people. [06:13] >> I know. But we don't us soccer purists [06:15] don't like what they're doing. [06:16] >> Oh, okay. [06:17] >> They're buying their way to the to to [06:19] the top. Well, how else [06:20] >> struggling struggling like, you know, [06:22] >> well, you got to pay for players and [06:24] stuff. [06:24] >> It's complicated. It'd be like rooting [06:26] for [06:27] >> I don't know if Walt I mean, if Walmart [06:30] decided they was going to buy a random [06:32] team and pay money and so they can get [06:34] to the Premier League so that you'd kind [06:36] of like want to support the Walmart. [06:38] >> If Walmart's as cute and charming as [06:40] Ryan Reynolds, then [06:41] >> there we go. Never mind. Never mind. [06:43] >> Okay. Uh Sky also wearing a Christmas [06:45] present. I am a lovely uh quilted blue [06:49] shirt. [06:49] >> It's warm. [06:50] >> Yeah, it's nice. Nice material. [06:52] >> It's quilted like my toilet paper. [06:54] >> Wow. [06:55] >> That's what I thought when I opened it. [06:57] >> That took a dark [laughter] turn. [07:01] >> Okay. Um what about your favorite [07:04] Christmas present? You didn't answer [07:05] yours. Your own question. [07:06] >> I got some new shoes. [07:07] >> Oh, [07:08] >> I got some new shoes. See? See my new [07:10] shoes, America? [07:11] >> Oh, I got some new shoes, too, but I [07:13] don't I'm not going to show they're not [07:14] here. Well, yeah. You're not going to [07:15] show them because they're not here. [07:16] Yeah. It kind of goes without saying, [07:18] but I was going to tell you what they [07:19] were, but I'm not going to tell you what [07:20] they were. [07:21] >> They're Columbia. They're I like them. [07:23] They're for hiking. Well, not really. [07:25] They're pretend hiking. The shoes that [07:27] for people who want to look like they [07:28] might have just come back from hiking, [07:30] but didn't. [07:31] >> No, I didn't. I I didn't get I didn't [07:32] get Colombia as a brand. [07:34] >> That's okay. Trump got Venezuela. [07:37] [laughter] [07:38] >> Oh my goodness. [07:39] >> Okay. Welcome to 2026. [07:42] Regime change is back on the menu. I [07:45] thought we were done with it. We tried [07:47] it. We didn't like it. We spit it out. [07:49] It It may It gave us food poisoning. [07:52] Yes. [07:52] >> We vowed to not do it again. And never [07:56] mind, we're doing it again. [07:58] >> Imperialism. I'm sorry. This is such an [08:00] inside black joke. Imperialism 2: [08:03] Electric Booaloo. I think [laughter] [08:06] for the people who who saw that movie, [08:08] they're going to love that joke. Okay. [08:11] >> Yeah. Yeah, I didn't see the movie, but [08:13] I do remember Electric Booaloo. [08:14] >> Yeah, it was it was a sequel to um [08:16] Breaking. It's a break. [08:18] >> Oh, yeah. Breaking to Electric Bugaloo. [08:19] >> There we go. [08:20] >> Yeah. So, what the heck? Um does [08:22] anything make any sense? [08:25] >> This guy thoughts. [08:27] >> I I have many thoughts. Um, you know, [08:31] he's a bad guy. Maduro is a bad guy. [08:33] >> No one is defending Maduro. So, it's our [08:36] job as Americans to take out all the bad [08:40] guys that are in the way of oil. [08:43] >> I I there there's so many layers to [08:45] this. I am no international policy [08:47] pundant, but I think a lot of the [08:49] questions are, okay, now what? Like, [08:51] it's one thing to go in and destabilize [08:53] a country by removing its leader, no [08:54] matter how nefarious or evil they are. [08:56] Saddam Hussein is a good example. It's [08:58] always what then? [08:59] >> Yeah. Uh Coen Powell famously said [09:01] before Bush went into Iraq, it's the [09:03] Pottery Barn [09:05] uh policy or whatever he called it, you [09:07] break it, you bought it. Yeah. If you go [09:09] in and disrupt a regime and destroy a [09:11] government, then you now are [09:13] responsible. [09:14] >> You now get the oil. [09:15] >> Well, [laughter] [09:16] you are responsible for creating [09:18] stability in that country. [09:19] >> Yeah. [09:20] >> And I It's really early. We haven't [09:21] heard what the plan is. It's just so [09:23] bizarre that that you can campaign on [09:26] the get us out of international [09:28] entanglements. We don't do that anymore. [09:30] It's America first. It's all if it's not [09:33] about us then. [09:35] >> So, it seems like in the transactional [09:37] nature of his brain, it's really is [09:39] about the oil. [09:39] >> So, here's a weird thing that's come out [09:41] today. I don't know if this is going to [09:42] go anywhere, but Fiona Hill, who [09:44] testified back in 2019 before Congress [09:46] about Trump's this this is a little [09:48] inside baseball about Trump's initial [09:50] dealings with Ukraine in his first [09:52] administration when it led to his first [09:53] impeachment. [09:54] >> Yeah. She testified back in 2019 that [09:56] back channel communication from Putin [09:59] told Trump if you will agree to kind of [10:02] get out of our way in Ukraine, we'll get [10:04] out of your way in Venezuela because [10:06] Russia had a significant stake in the [10:08] Maduro regime and you can go into [10:11] Venezuela and take the oil and do [10:12] whatever you want. And so now people are [10:13] speculating, is that deal what's [10:15] precipitated this new action that we're [10:17] now going to withdraw from Ukraine so [10:19] that Putin can do what he wants in his [10:21] sphere of influence and Trump thinks the [10:22] Western Hemisphere is his sphere of [10:24] influence. Like these are like mafia [10:25] dons fighting over neighborhood turf. [10:27] Yeah. [10:28] >> And Trump's attitude is the Western [10:29] Hemisphere, the Donroe doctrine as he's [10:31] now calling it and a pun on the Monroe [10:33] doctrine that he should have the right [10:35] to do whatever he wants anywhere in the [10:37] Western Hemisphere, including Greenland [10:38] and other places. I feel like I should [10:40] have the right to do whatever I want in [10:42] the Western Hemisphere. Why don't I? [10:46] >> Um maybe because you're not a dictator. [10:49] [laughter] [10:49] >> So here's the thing. I I I think that um [10:52] you [10:53] >> you just talked about this, right? On [10:55] your podcast for this week, [10:56] >> but we skipped I think we skipped back [10:58] from putting any of this stuff into [11:00] context. We just jumped into the middle [11:01] of it. I know we can assume that some of [11:03] our audience have heard about it, but [11:04] what happened was the United States [11:07] military went into Venezuela and [11:10] arrested the um president and his wife. [11:14] And apparently it was a it was like a [11:16] law it's being presented as like a a law [11:19] enforcement thing that was aided by the [11:20] military, not in military actions. So [11:22] we're technically not at war. And that [11:24] he was arrested supposedly on charges of [11:26] narot terrorism and he was brought out [11:28] of the country. One of the questions [11:29] that that that were being raised is a [11:33] does did he have the right to do this [11:35] because this kind of an act of war that [11:37] was related to Congress? [11:38] >> Did Trump have the right? [11:38] >> Did Trump have the right to do this? And [11:40] the second thing that's related to this [11:42] is that a lot of Venezuelans are [11:43] celebrating the fact that this person, [11:45] this president was a bad dude. He he was [11:48] a bad dude. And so it's very easy for us [11:50] to kind of skip towards like skip [11:52] forward to criticizing this [11:54] administration. But I think it's always [11:55] important to take this breath to say to [11:59] the people who suffered under an unjust [12:01] regime, we are happy that that there may [12:05] be an opportunity for the people of [12:07] Venezuela to have self-ruule. [12:09] >> Secondary question is like how do we [12:10] think about this ethically as Christians [12:12] and how do we analyze the actions and [12:15] were they just or unjust? And and about [12:17] that I got my opinions but I don't want [12:19] to take too much of this. I don't want [12:20] to put it in context. I think the hard [12:21] part though is when thei the United [12:24] States has a very checkered history on [12:26] this front obviously especially in Latin [12:28] America. [12:29] >> Um however in more recent history when [12:32] the United States has undertaken these [12:33] kinds of actions [12:36] >> they've done it first by consulting [12:38] Congress and getting congressional [12:41] approval. Sometimes they've gone to the [12:43] United Nations and sought approval [12:44] there. Other times they've built [12:46] international coalitions with allies to [12:48] undertake this stuff. So, it's not. And [12:50] the weird part is now the story is [12:52] coming out that apparently Donald Trump [12:53] informed oil executives in advance that [12:56] this was happening when he didn't even [12:58] inform Congress [12:59] >> that this was happening. [13:00] >> Well, I think that's the reason why, and [13:02] this one of the things we struggle, we [13:04] can have this intellectual analysis [13:06] about all of the geopolitical [13:07] implications of it. And all of those [13:10] things tend to follow the direct [13:11] statement that was made by the [13:13] president. The president said, "It's [13:14] about the oil." [13:16] >> He says it's about the oil. I can [13:18] >> well [laughter] [13:19] and this the important part if it is [13:21] about the oil whatever secondary goods [13:24] that may come from it I can say that the [13:27] intention of a power grab was unethical [13:30] like that particular thing then I can [13:32] say the history of American intervention [13:36] both in South America and the Middle [13:37] East has rarely if ever resulted in an [13:40] improved quality of life for the people [13:42] who have had their kind of nation [13:45] destabilized by these actions. I I just [13:47] got finished reading a book about Dwight [13:49] Eisenhower and D-Day in World War II. [13:51] And a lot of Americans go back to World [13:53] War II as the moment when we were [13:55] clearly on the side of righteousness, [13:57] right? And we we were the benevolent [13:58] liberators of France and Western Europe [14:00] and on and on. And we look [14:01] >> we gave the children chocolates for [14:03] heaven's sake. [14:04] >> And we look back at that moment and go, [14:05] see, we we are a good benevolent [14:07] country. And then throughout the Cold [14:08] War, things get murky. You know, there's [14:10] a lot of things, shady things that the [14:12] United States did in different parts of [14:13] the world, but we always wanted to keep [14:14] up the appearance of our righteousness [14:16] by at least looking benevolent in what [14:18] we were doing. And you can go back to [14:20] the Iraq war under George W. Bush and [14:22] go, "Oh man, that was a mess from the [14:24] from the beginning and the lack of WMDs [14:26] and on and on and on, but we at least [14:28] kept up the pretense of trying to do the [14:30] right thing and be righteous." And [14:32] what's so weird about this event is I'm [14:34] not saying everything America's done in [14:36] the past has been truly righteous and [14:37] and we at least tried to [14:40] >> in in the Western Hemisphere, [14:42] >> right? And now it's like we just look [14:45] like the bully and the bad guys. I'm not [14:47] saying Maduro was worth keeping in [14:49] power, but we've we've done nothing to [14:51] guarantee the security of the people of [14:53] Venezuela. We've done nothing to ensure [14:55] there's a good stable government in the [14:56] wake of him being removed. We've done [14:58] nothing that looks like we are trying to [15:00] promote democracy. Yeah, [15:01] >> it's just blatant. We want the oil. We [15:04] have the muscle to do this. It's it's [15:06] it's mob diplomacy. [15:08] >> And that's what I mean. The secondary [15:10] justification [15:11] and the place where you expect me to [15:13] argue is the part that gets frustrated. [15:15] Like after you've said it's about the [15:17] oil, you can't then later say, "No, no, [15:20] no. We support democracy. We're going to [15:21] work with these people." No, no. You've [15:23] you've said the quiet part out loud and [15:25] all of the other sophisticated analysis [15:28] to me is pushed to the side and I can [15:30] see something for what it actually is. [15:32] Which seems to me to be a money grab. [15:34] >> Yeah, it's um [15:37] but a lot of people are saying, "Oh, it [15:39] was a successful this was we've done a [15:41] successful thing." Well, I guess you if [15:43] you achieved your goal, you could say [15:44] yes, it was successful, but we also I [15:47] mean it wasn't just like we snuck some [15:50] guys in and snuck a guy out. [15:53] >> Yeah. [15:53] >> There were 150 planes involved that blew [15:56] up air defenses that bombed numerous [15:59] military sites. So, it really was more [16:02] like the setup in of an invasion so that [16:05] several helicopters could go in without [16:07] any fear that they would be shot at. Um, [16:12] Cuba is already saying at least 40 of [16:14] their citizens were killed in in the [16:16] operation. Almost the entire security [16:19] force, the personal security force for [16:22] the president was killed. So, we killed [16:24] quite a few people because we want to [16:28] arrest someone to try them for narotism. [16:32] It's just the body count is concerning [16:36] if it's a law enforcement operation. [16:38] to to use a terrible analogy. It it's [16:40] like you've got a patient with a tumor [16:43] >> and you have successfully and very [16:46] strategically the tumor [16:47] >> and surgically removed the tumor from [16:49] the patient. You're like, "We got the [16:51] tumor out. What a great surgery." But [16:52] you didn't actually ask the patient for [16:54] permission [16:55] >> and you've left them on the table [16:56] without any plan for recovery [16:58] >> and you took a leg while you were at it. [17:00] >> Yeah. So, it's like, "Congratulations, [17:02] US military. You did what you were [17:04] designed and trained to do better than [17:06] anyone in the world. But there's legal [17:08] restrictions on how and when you are [17:10] allowed to do this that the president as [17:12] the commander-in-chief is obligated to [17:14] abide by because he took an oath to [17:16] uphold the constitution. [17:17] >> This is I I would I would say like man [17:20] this this is [gasps] [17:22] all of this stuff gets really [17:23] frustrating because I'm actually a [17:25] pacifist. [laughter] [17:27] So I don't want to argue just war [17:29] theory, right? I don't want to argue [17:31] just war theory. I think because of the [17:32] testimony of Jesus, Christians ought to [17:34] be on the side of nonviolence. I believe [17:37] that almost every Christian nation that [17:40] that has sorry not every Christian [17:41] nation that the Christians in every [17:43] nation when our country has gone to war, [17:47] we tended to support that war in the [17:49] moment and it takes time for us to kind [17:50] of look back after the fog of war and to [17:53] clear it to say, "Oh, this probably [17:54] wasn't a good idea." And so in general, [17:56] I think it's it's better when a nation [17:59] is rushing to war that the Christians [18:01] should be on the side of peace. [18:03] Nonetheless, I will say there is [18:05] actually Christian reflection of what [18:07] makes the war just and what makes the [18:08] war unjust. We talked about this about [18:09] 20 minutes on the podcast, but I'll just [18:11] only mention two of them. There's like [18:12] seven principles you can Google. You can [18:13] Google them, Google them on the [18:15] internet. One of them is this is all [18:18] Christians agree about this right [18:19] intention. One of the first things you [18:22] have to say before you have a war for it [18:23] to be just in the Christian tradition is [18:26] is your goal the the um help helping the [18:29] oppressed kind of righting and wrong and [18:31] and and putting forward the common good [18:34] and we know that we've already said the [18:36] intention of this war as stated by the [18:38] president was to get um oil [18:40] >> oil the other one is a proportionality [18:43] and this is a little bit trickier but [18:44] I'll just just just just only use this [18:46] one [18:46] >> it is that you know that the effects of [18:49] the war the effects of the military [18:51] action um will and the evil that [18:54] inevitably comes with it when you do [18:55] military action this loss of life and [18:56] these other things the effects of that [18:59] action will be better than if things had [19:01] not been done otherwise [19:02] >> right and so given the fact that we've [19:03] seen so many times how our interventions [19:06] into um South America has gone poorly I [19:10] can say that we don't actually know that [19:12] the proportionality of the effects of [19:13] this action is going to be good I can [19:15] say all of that and at the same time [19:17] recognize Okay. [19:20] What you do have is the removal of [19:23] someone whose life makes people [19:25] miserable. And if you are if you were a [19:28] military operative, all you can do is [19:32] follow out the task that was given to [19:34] you by your government. And if there is [19:36] a failure in that responsibility, it's [19:38] because we have created the context [19:41] where the people in charge of governing [19:43] our military and giving them commands [19:45] aren't acting reasonably. So that's kind [19:47] of a a a a corporate failure on our [19:49] part. [19:49] >> So which brings up the question I think [19:50] is more interesting is how are Trump's [19:53] American voters and supporters reacting [19:55] to this? Like are they happy about this? [19:57] Are they going way to your point Phil? [19:59] Like what happened to America? First I [20:00] thought we were getting out of [20:01] international entanglements [20:03] when are especially as evangelical [20:05] supporters going to say this is not what [20:07] we wanted. This is not what we voted [20:08] for. This is not ethical. This is not [20:10] moral. I mean, if heaven forbid American [20:13] lives had been lost in this operation, [20:15] what would the country's response be [20:16] different? [20:17] >> I don't know. [20:18] >> See, that's the thing. It's you said [20:20] ethical and moral, which is different [20:22] than legal. [20:24] >> Something could be legal but be immoral. [20:26] >> That's right. That's right. And so, have [20:27] we and so I I've seen people saying [20:29] technically because this was, you know, [20:30] there's the technicality argument as to [20:32] whether or not something was legal and [20:34] whether or not congressional oversight [20:36] was required. I think there's a strong [20:38] argument to be made that it was [20:39] required, but I don't want as a [20:41] Christian. I'm asking is this ethical? [20:42] >> I think there's a lot of Christians in [20:44] America and just Americans in general [20:46] who want to believe that America is a [20:48] moral, ethical, shining light upon a [20:50] hill to use Reagan's language. And this [20:52] president over and over and over again [20:55] is just dismantling that that myth and [20:59] he's exposing, you know, we're betraying [21:02] our allies. We're we're not got the back [21:03] of people who we committed to. We're [21:05] going in doing all these crazy actions [21:06] around the world. He's saying horrendous [21:08] things. At what point does this [21:10] president so fail to represent the [21:13] morality of Americans that they turn on [21:15] him and go like, "No, we don't want this [21:17] guy." Uh, or at least the illusion of [21:19] morality of Americans. [21:21] >> Uh, the feigned morality. [21:23] >> I know the reality. [21:24] >> I mean, the way [clears throat] the way [21:25] we want to see ourselves. [21:28] I mean I I just I'm I'm just thinking [21:30] about this and say like it it is amazing [21:34] how um the narratives that we do choose [21:37] to believe about ourselves. So let's [21:39] just let's take like a it seemed to be [21:42] related follow me down this road [21:44] >> for I don't know 100 years 150 years 250 [21:47] years [21:48] >> African-Americans talked about this [21:50] thing in different language called [21:51] systematic injustice. These kinds of [21:53] institutional barriers that that were in [21:55] the way of African-American flourishing. [21:57] we were seen as woke and whatever we [21:59] we're kind of dismissed this there's no [22:01] data to support this even though there's [22:03] reams of data and then we have an entire [22:06] the last I don't know 5 to 10 years this [22:09] narrative that there is a systematic [22:10] structural barrier to the flourishing of [22:14] the majority culture that we just [22:17] immediately believed by the by the by [22:19] his support it's like well hold on [22:20] >> how is it possible that this idea of [22:23] structural um kind of barriers to [22:27] flourishing. The reason I say that is [22:29] because I think his Steven Miller, this [22:31] is not it. You can take it out of the [22:32] podcast. One of the guys who's in the [22:34] Trump administration posted that after [22:36] World War II, um, Americans have and the [22:39] people in the West have been apologizing [22:41] for for liberating the world. What we've [22:43] seen over the last, you know, 50 to 75 [22:45] years have been this this long apology. [22:48] We're no longer going to apologize for [22:50] being the most powerful people in the [22:51] world. We're going to kind of shape the [22:53] future. And someone said, "Well, what do [22:55] you mean that that the wealth has [22:57] increased in the west over that postw [22:59] World War II greater than ever was [23:01] before? There is no mythic oppression [23:03] that we need to redress by once again [23:06] taking over the world." And so I do see [23:08] this moment that the stories that we [23:10] tell about ourselves and the things that [23:12] we're experiencing as a country, these [23:15] delusions lead to people in other places [23:18] actually suffering. And until we learn [23:19] to tell the truth about ourselves, I [23:21] think we're in danger of of doing a lot [23:23] of harm to other people. [23:25] >> Well, especially we we don't want to [23:27] hear bad news about ourselves. You know, [23:30] we want to hear, please spin this in a [23:33] way that makes me feel good about what [23:35] we've just done. And I'm I'm very prone [23:39] like the dad at the uh the school board [23:41] meeting in Texas who said, "I just want [23:43] history to teach my kids that the worst [23:46] day in America is [laughter] better than [23:48] the best day anywhere else in the [23:50] world." That's all I want the history [23:52] class to teach my kids. [23:53] >> And I think that explains a little bit [23:55] about why we end up picking the [23:56] presidents we pick is the most [23:58] successful presidents, at least in my [23:59] lifetime, have been those that make [24:01] America feel good about itself. Yeah, [24:03] >> Ronald Reagan did that brilliantly in a [24:04] way that Jimmy Carter never could do. [24:07] >> And Barack Obama, I think part of the [24:08] reason he was elected is it made [24:10] Americans, both white and black, feel [24:13] better about America. Look at who we [24:14] elected. We're not racist. We're [24:17] progressive. We've made changes on and [24:19] on. And he was cool and he was a great, [24:22] you know, articulate speaker and things. [24:24] And I think for some Americans, they [24:25] elected Donald Trump twice [24:27] >> because for them, [snorts] he [24:30] represented the America they strong and [24:32] tough and independent. We don't take no [24:34] crap. [24:34] >> We don't take no crap from nobody. But [24:35] it was a way of making them feel better [24:37] about America. And I just wonder, has [24:39] that spoiled for them [24:40] >> when they see his actions and rhetoric? [24:43] Are they embarrassed? [24:44] >> But look what we just did. We didn't [24:46] take no crap. [24:47] >> We didn't lose a single life. [24:49] >> What was Venezuela doing to us? They [24:51] were sending they were sending boats [24:53] full of drugs which according to Donald [24:55] Trump each boat he blew up saved 25,000 [24:59] American lives [24:59] >> which we know is demonstrably untrue and [25:01] there was no fentanyl coming from [25:03] Venezuela. [25:04] >> No fentanyl. [25:04] >> So I mean this is there was an argument [25:07] back in 2003 when George W. Bush decided [25:09] to invade Iraq that Saddam Hussein and [25:12] his regime posed an imminent threat to [25:13] the United States because of WMDs and it [25:15] was post 911 all that was the justific. [25:18] What threat did Maduro pose to the [25:20] United States? [25:21] >> He had speedboats. He has a lot of [25:23] speedboats and some of them had cocaine [25:26] that may or may not have been headed [25:28] toward the US because their gas tanks [25:29] weren't big enough to actually make it [25:30] to the US. [25:31] >> But that's Yeah, it's I don't know. [25:34] We're just We're like making stuff up so [25:36] we can do fun we can blow stuff up. [25:39] We're making stuff up so we can blow [25:40] stuff up. I don't think that people are [25:43] as um uninformed as we give as as we [25:47] like to pretend here because I actually [25:49] have noticed that the worse the actions [25:52] of this administration gets the more [25:54] heated the rhetoric on what the [25:56] alternative would have been. [25:58] >> So it's like Biden gets worse and worse [26:00] and worse in the imagination of people [26:03] because I think that part of them knows [26:05] this is really really bad. in order to [26:07] justify what is really really bad, I [26:09] have to make the alternative look worse. [26:11] >> It was it was the best choice and so you [26:14] had other choices on the Republican side [26:16] Trump too. [26:17] >> What I'm going to say is that at some [26:18] point though you have to be analyzed [26:21] based upon what you have done and I [26:24] think that when you look at what he has [26:26] done here that that can that could be [26:28] the we're not talking about that. We're [26:29] not talking about everybody else. We're [26:30] talking about the particular action of [26:31] this administration. And I think that [26:33] what I often think about is because I've [26:36] been this way. I've been loud and wrong [26:38] and know that I was loud loud and wrong [26:39] in my heart. So if someone is loud and [26:44] wrong, [26:45] what kind of space do you open up for [26:47] you to say, well, it's okay. It's okay. [26:52] Because it feels like right now that [26:54] that moment of it's okay only happens [26:58] >> after they fall out of favor. You think [27:00] of someone like Marjorie Taylor Green. [27:01] Yeah. [27:02] >> And she's had this like, you know, [27:04] >> moment where she sees through all of it, [27:06] but [27:06] >> at a Damascus road experience. [27:08] >> Have you did you read that long [27:09] interview or article about her where she [27:11] talks about her faith quite dramatically [27:14] as being a turning point for her with [27:16] Trump? [27:16] >> Wow. [27:17] >> She talks about the Charlie Kirk [27:18] memorial. [27:19] >> Yes, I was right. [27:20] >> And yeah, and the contrast between Erica [27:22] Kirk forgiving the gunman and Donald [27:25] Trump saying, "I hate my enemies." And [27:27] Marjorie Taylor Green said that was kind [27:28] of the penny drop moment for her where [27:30] she realized this man is completely out [27:33] of step with the faith I say I believe [27:34] in. And I'm just wondering if more [27:36] people are having that experience. And [27:38] and if they do, I think we should open [27:40] our arms and say welcome. We we hold no [27:44] resentment. Like, yeah, you may have [27:45] been in this camp before, but it's never [27:47] too late to to change your mind and get [27:50] on the side of realizing this man is a [27:52] is a threat to everything that both our [27:54] faith and our country hold sacred. [27:57] >> And I think it's important to say we [27:59] talk about like camps and I don't want [28:00] people like we're not saying like switch [28:02] from the Republican party to the [28:04] Democratic party as if the Democratic [28:05] party has the salvation in this. I'm [28:07] talking about switching from MAGA to [28:09] loving your neighbor and following the [28:12] >> I'm talking about I'm talking about [28:14] analyzing what you see and being honest [28:16] about what you see. And it feels so old [28:19] and tired to go if Biden had done this [28:21] or Obama had done this. But we know how [28:24] these things would have been responded [28:26] to had somebody else been in in charge. [28:28] >> Okay. Um I'm a little [clears throat] [28:31] This is what I'm looking at this week. [28:34] The first week of a new year. Okay. the [28:36] first week of New Year. Okay. [28:37] >> There's no news of the butt this week. [28:39] >> No, there's no Well, I think all of this [28:41] is new but this week [laughter] [28:43] all of this is news of the butt. [28:44] >> Okay. [28:45] >> Okay. We had a lavish New Year's Eve [28:47] party at Mara Lago. Christine Gnome, [28:49] head of the Department of Homeland [28:51] Security, and Steven Miller, the [28:52] engineer of the anti-immigrant movement, [28:56] were both videotaped dancing to Ice Ice [28:58] Baby at the Trump New Year's Eve. [29:01] >> Was Vanilla Ice performing there? No, [29:03] they were just playing songs, I think. [29:06] >> Um, Israeli Prime Minister and accused [29:08] war criminal Benjamin Netanyahu was also [29:10] partying with Donald Trump at Mara Lago. [29:14] We assume the president of the [29:15] Palestinian Authority was not invited to [29:18] the party. An artist at the party did a [29:20] speed painting of Jesus which was then [29:22] auctioned off at the party for $2.75 [29:24] million. [29:26] >> Was it given to the poor? I don't know [29:28] where the money went, but even when the [29:31] Trump Foundation says it's giving money [29:34] to the poor, it often doesn't go. [29:36] >> If someone said to give me $2.7 million, [29:39] I will draw you a picture of Jesus [29:41] within 90 [laughter] seconds. [29:43] >> You ain't got to give it to me. Give it [29:44] to my church. [29:45] >> For what it's worth, Vanilla Ice was [29:46] performing. [29:47] >> Oh, it was Vanilla Ice singing Ice Ice [29:51] Baby while the people that champion Ice [29:56] deporting Uh, Christian grandmothers and [29:59] pastors wives were dancing. Good to [30:02] know. While someone was painting a [30:03] picture of Jesus to sell for $2.75 [30:07] million in In the meantime, tax credits [30:10] that helped millions of Americans afford [30:12] health insurance were allowed to expire. [30:14] More than 20 million Americans will see [30:16] their insurance premiums rise by an [30:17] average of 114%. An estimated 5 million [30:21] Americans will likely lose their health [30:22] insurance in the next few weeks. Uh, [30:25] Democratic Socialist Zoran Mandami was [30:28] sworn in as New York City mayor. He's [30:30] New York's first Muslim mayor. And when [30:32] he was sworn in, he placed his hand on a [30:34] Quran, which is an option that all [30:38] politicians are given. What book do you [30:40] want to put your hand on? Leading [30:41] Alabama Senator Tommy Tuberville to [30:44] declare, "The enemy is inside the [30:45] gates." [30:47] Uh [30:48] >> yeah, [30:49] >> just given all the problems you just [30:50] mentioned about losing health insurance [30:52] and premiums going up and ICE rates in [30:54] our country is the fact that somebody [30:56] put their hand on a Quran who is a [30:58] Muslim, that's our biggest problem. [31:00] >> That's the enemy that is now inside the [31:02] gates. [31:03] >> Um the Trump administration blames the [31:06] entire Somali-American community for a [31:08] fraud ring committed by at most a few [31:10] dozen people in Minnesota, referring to [31:12] Somalian Americans as collectively [31:15] garbage. A tweet from the Department of [31:18] Homeland Security, uh, Christy Gnome's [31:20] Department showed a painting of an [31:22] adilic tropical beach with a vintage [31:24] American car with the text, "America [31:27] after 100 million deportations." [31:30] >> What? [31:31] >> Yes. This is a government department. [31:33] >> Yes. [31:34] >> Who is suggesting we can make America [31:36] great again by deporting almost onethird [31:40] of Americans. [31:41] >> Yes. DHS added the line to the tweet [31:45] describing the painting as the peace of [31:47] a nation no longer besieged by the third [31:50] world. 100 million people. Yes. America [31:53] after 100 million deportations. That's [31:56] what the Department of Homeland Security [31:58] would like to accomplish. Onethird of [31:59] all the people here roughly. The [32:01] painting by a Japanese artist was used [32:04] without permission. Other official [32:06] Christmas tweets. The Department of [32:07] Homeland Security posted a video [32:09] featuring images of Jesus in a manger [32:11] with the caption, "We are blessed to [32:13] share a nation and a savior. [32:16] All Americans share a common savior." [32:20] They didn't say whether the savior was [32:21] Jesus or Trump. We do not know exactly [32:23] what they had in mind, but there was a [32:25] picture of Jesus. Secretary of State [32:27] Marco Rubio, his official account, [32:29] tweeted, "The joyous message of [32:30] Christmas is the hope of eternal life [32:32] through Christ." That was not a message [32:34] from Marco Rubio, but from the [32:36] Department of State. The Department of [32:38] Labor posted the message, "Let Earth [32:40] receive her king." [32:42] Um, Trump, after strikes against [32:44] Islamists in Nigeria, tweeted, "May God [32:47] bless our military and merry Christmas [32:50] to all, including the dead terrorists, [32:52] of which there will be many more, if [32:54] their slaughter of Christians continues [32:57] on Friday." That's the spirit of [33:00] Christmas. [33:01] Merry [laughter] Christmas to the [33:02] including the dead. Merry Christmas to [33:04] the dead. [33:04] >> Merry Christmas to the dead terrorist [33:06] that we blew up. He said the attack on [33:09] Nigerian Islamists was a Christmas [33:11] present to ISIS to them. [33:15] >> A reporter working for the publication [33:18] The Hill asked the White House to [33:20] comment about the all the explicitly [33:22] Christian tweets from official accounts. [33:24] White House spokesperson Taylor Rogers [33:27] responded, quote, "Only fake news [33:30] reporters would write a story using [33:32] so-called critics suffering from a [33:34] severe case of Trump derangement [33:36] syndrome to pedal anti-Christian bias." [33:39] He continued, "The Trump administration [33:41] is proud to celebrate Christmas with [33:43] more than 160 million Christians across [33:45] the country. We wish all the haters and [33:47] losers a very merry Christmas." the [33:51] contrast between painting pictures of [33:54] Jesus [33:57] uh tweeting about our savior [34:00] and calling people garbage and saying [34:04] merry Christmas to people we've just [34:05] killed [34:07] >> and [34:09] bombing a nation to get its oil like all [34:12] in the same week [34:14] and doing it flagrantly and openly and [34:18] with ah Yeah, [34:20] >> Esau. [34:21] >> I'm embarrassed. [34:22] >> Esau. [34:23] >> Um, I'm sorry. I'm trying to think [34:24] there. I mean, you hit me with a tsunami [34:26] of data. So, I'm trying to figure out [34:27] which one of those are worth engaging. [34:30] >> We're going to Well, America will be [34:32] what we what it used to be. [34:34] >> I mean, [34:35] >> once we finish deporting a 100 million [34:37] people, [34:39] okay, then. So, actually, I want to talk [34:40] about the Somalians. [34:41] >> Okay. [34:42] >> Talk to the Somalians first and I'll [34:43] talk about like what we when we say [34:44] America, what do we mean? So the idea [34:48] that um words don't have implications is [34:52] this Somalia stuff started like [34:55] >> if you go back to the off-handed [34:57] statement that was made by Trump around [34:59] them like with the animals and the dogs [35:02] or something and so that would be and [35:04] because I think people got so upset [35:06] about it became a part of his kind of [35:09] political rhetoric which meant that like [35:11] dehumanizing an entire group of people [35:13] became politically advantageous and the [35:15] people who I would have assumed that [35:16] most Americans [35:18] before this happened had no real like [35:22] animosity towards the Somalian people [35:24] and all of the sudden the Somalians are [35:26] seen as politically dangerous so it [35:28] doesn't actually matter there's any [35:29] evidence of there's widespread fraud and [35:32] the idea that once again even if it were [35:34] like you said most of it it was not done [35:36] by Somali it was done by other people [35:37] but even if it was 10 to 12 people the [35:39] idea that once again when you're a [35:41] racial or ethnic minority the actions [35:44] done by a you stick to like an entire pe [35:48] people group [35:50] >> versus when like Americans do stuff it [35:52] doesn't attach to America. So there's a [35:53] certain hypocrisy. There's a certain [35:55] kind of racism inherent in the idea is [35:57] why is it plausible that of course that [35:59] like all the people of Somali somehow [36:02] conspired together to to do like this [36:05] fraud. So the idea that it was [36:06] immediately plausible that everybody [36:08] kind of agreed to it shows something [36:09] that's going on there. But I want to say [36:11] this thing about like we talk about [36:12] America. I do not consider like the [36:17] actions of 10 to 15 politicians as being [36:21] America. When I think about like what [36:24] makes America special or what makes [36:26] America America a place that I want to [36:29] live, I look at the heroic virtue of [36:31] people who exist despite these odds. So [36:34] my definition of America is like the [36:36] witness of of ordinary Christians who [36:38] haven't lost their political minds. I [36:40] look at the people who during these same [36:42] Christmas holidays when these tweets and [36:44] things were being sent out were were [36:46] helping people who were suffering. That [36:47] doesn't mean that we ignore these [36:49] things. It doesn't mean that people [36:50] didn't vote for these things, but this [36:52] isn't the only America. [36:53] >> I agree. I agree. [36:54] >> And so maybe I want to say like [36:57] >> yes, I can say that our government does [36:59] things and the people who supported this [37:01] government are are sometime are somehow [37:03] attached to it, but that isn't the only [37:05] America I know. And and so maybe I want [37:07] to say I saw some beauty over like from [37:13] January 1st to now that isn't actually [37:16] displayed in that list of like 35 [37:19] horribles as horrible things are [37:21] >> and that's true of any culture any [37:23] country right but here's here's the [37:25] problem like Trump's approval ratings [37:26] right now I think are in the mid30s yeah [37:28] >> right so the majority of Americans do [37:30] not support him and his actions and [37:33] >> his policies things like that which is [37:35] >> reassuring But here's the thing. [37:36] >> The biggest group that supports him [37:38] >> Uhhuh. [37:39] >> But here's the other thing. Part [37:41] >> white evangelicals. [37:42] >> Oh. Oh. I I agree. [37:44] >> You missed me on that one. [37:46] >> I [laughter] I agree that who whoever [37:48] occupies the Oval Office is is not [37:50] America. However, one of the things [37:53] we've prided ourselves on, at least [37:54] throughout my lifetime, has been this [37:56] idea that we are a country and a culture [38:00] that creates and educates brilliant [38:02] people. and that we've had a political [38:04] system that tries at least to select [38:06] some of those brilliant people to lead [38:08] us. Yeah. [38:08] >> And what I think has been shown is we're [38:11] no longer we're no longer operating in a [38:14] way that selects [38:16] >> smart, intelligent, discerning people to [38:19] represent us either in the White House [38:21] or in Congress. Right now, our political [38:23] system, I would argue, does not reflect [38:26] the goodness of the people. So, I'm [38:28] gonna I'm gonna ask the question that [38:29] maybe that's why y'all invite me only to [38:31] come here once every like two or three [38:33] months. [38:34] >> During what years do you know No, no, [38:36] no, no. Like, sorry. Like from 1980 to [38:40] 200, it's like what years? [38:42] >> You're not talking about like the pre [38:45] suffrage. You're not talking about Jim [38:48] Crow. So you're talking about maybe from [38:50] the 80s up until like so you're talking [38:52] about 25 years where most Americans [38:56] everywhere had a right to vote without [38:59] fear of loss of life is a 20 well 40 if [39:03] you say the 80s now it's around 45 year [39:05] old phenomenon and so I think that it's [39:09] kind of hard to have a declining [39:12] narrative where we talk about this is [39:13] the moment of decline when I can say [39:16] it's been rocky [39:18] during most of like and so and I'm [39:20] always and maybe it's like I'm always [39:22] trying to find something that keeps me [39:25] from completely desparing even though [39:27] the evidence runs the other way. [39:28] >> And this is where I think Barack Obama [39:29] did a really great job of navigating [39:31] that that narrative because he was able [39:34] to acknowledge all of the failures of [39:36] America's past and yet emphasize our [39:38] pursuit for a more perfect union. [39:40] >> And that's what I think we've lost. I [39:42] think that we've lost the ability to [39:43] say, and this is what I think has [39:46] actually happened over the last 10 to 15 [39:47] years, is it used to be when we were at [39:51] our best, we've done this horrible thing [39:54] and we've learned from it. And now this [39:55] is kind of a steady lesson that we take [39:58] to the next generation. And so [40:00] acknowledging their failures and then [40:02] moving forward. What we've had recently [40:05] in their latest telling of their story [40:06] is let's just erase all of the failures. [40:09] >> And let's only tell their story of [40:11] American [40:11] >> but I don't think this is where this is [40:13] you're making my point for me. I think [40:14] the majority of Americans agree with [40:16] you. [40:16] >> Yeah. [40:17] >> And that fact is not reflected in our [40:19] politics because our politics are so [40:21] broken that we've elected a president [40:23] and we have a do nothing Congress that [40:25] doesn't abide by the Constitution, [40:27] doesn't do what the American people want [40:28] it to do. and a president that doesn't [40:30] reflect that view of America as a flawed [40:33] but ever growing nation. [40:34] >> Yeah. I think I think I think you see [40:37] the distinction historically, you know, [40:39] when when someone said to Trump, uh, but [40:43] Putin is doing this and Putin is doing [40:44] that and Putin is a horrible guy. And [40:46] his response was, "And you think we're [40:48] so good, [40:49] >> right?" [40:49] >> Yeah. Have we ever had a president [40:51] before who wants us to think Americans [40:54] are less good than we think? [40:57] >> Yeah. [40:57] >> Exactly. That's kind of new, don't you [41:00] think? He [41:01] >> rather than calling us to the better [41:02] angels of our nature, [41:04] >> he's calling us to our Yeah. And and I [41:06] don't think that reflects the majority [41:07] of what Americans believe. [41:09] >> Yeah. I I say that, but I also want to [41:11] say that that narrative of American [41:13] goodness [41:15] um [41:17] was sometimes weaponized against [41:20] significant portions of the population. [41:22] Totally. Let me explain what I mean. [41:24] this is the next step in America's great [41:26] step towards like becoming amazing. You [41:29] say what the Democratic party says and [41:31] if you don't support this part, you're [41:33] guilty of all the other sins that [41:34] preceded us. And eventually people just [41:36] got tired of being told that. And so [41:38] they said, I mean, crazy as it is, well, [41:41] let's just embrace being, you know, the [41:43] worst. And so there is no what I'm [41:45] saying what we try to do what we try to [41:47] do here is to articulate the bad but I [41:50] see a hardheartedness where when you lay [41:53] out the litany of misdeeds people go yes [41:58] like I am I am I am fine with all of [42:00] that because nobody's actually ethical [42:03] and as long as I get what I need out of [42:05] it doesn't matter. And so I just find [42:07] that I've seen such a callousness of [42:10] heart amongst the people who support [42:12] this stuff that you can list all of that [42:14] stuff and they're going to be like, "So [42:16] what?" The option would have been [42:17] somebody who would have done something. [42:18] >> And I would argue that's probably only [42:20] 25% of the population. And the fact that [42:22] that 25% can dictate who ends up in the [42:25] White House shows we have a broken [42:26] political system. [42:27] >> That's the electoral college, which is a [42:28] different question for a different day. [42:29] >> Oh, we got to solve that one, too. Okay, [42:31] let's solve that. Um, I had two other [42:34] stories which we were going to get to. [42:35] But I also thought maybe we'd end up [42:37] talking about all this stuff for a [42:38] while, which we did and and we're more [42:39] or less we've used up our time. So, I'm [42:42] gonna hold those stories for when [42:44] Caitlyn's back cuz [42:45] >> Yeah, I know. You read them. You read [42:47] them. But look at the time. Esau [42:50] Macaulay. Uh, who did you who did you [42:52] interview who was on your show this [42:53] week? [42:53] >> So, Baraka. [42:55] >> That's cool. [42:55] >> Yeah. So, [42:56] >> and producer Mike. [42:57] >> And producer Mike. Oh, that's even [42:59] >> Yeah. Every single day. [42:59] >> How did you get Mike? cuz we've been [43:01] trying to get him on this show and he's [43:02] not available. [43:03] >> Um, basically nobody else wants to hang [43:05] out with me. He's like my last friend. [43:07] [laughter] [43:07] >> Esau's mom pays me every week to show up [43:10] on the podcast. [43:11] >> Be nice to my baby boy. [43:12] >> All right. When uh when Kaitlin's back [43:15] next week, assuming she's not at another [43:16] conference without telling us, uh, when [43:18] Kaitlin's back next week, we'll we'll [43:20] talk about love. [43:21] >> A [43:22] >> I [laughter] got some love takes. [43:24] >> I Maybe we could have you back for a [43:26] little love. [43:26] >> I want you dressing like a cupid or [43:27] something. [43:28] >> Okay, that's not going to happen. Thank [43:29] you. So cute. So this is a it's a new [43:32] year. It's the year Christians are going [43:34] to say we've had enough. [43:36] >> This is it. [43:37] >> We reject this [43:38] >> more and more. And there are a lot that [43:40] already do. There are a lot that always [43:41] have. But it's I it's going to grow. [43:44] It's going to grow. I believe it. We're [43:47] going to make it happen. We're going to [43:48] get more information out. Is this is [43:50] this what you want? Is this how you want [43:53] us to portray ourselves and the role you [43:55] want us to play in the world? Then more [43:57] and more people are going to say, "Gosh [43:59] darn it." Cuz we Christians don't swear. [44:01] [laughter] So, we're going to say, "Gosh [44:03] darn it." No. Why? We're all going to do [44:07] uh the what's his face from the [44:08] Simpsons? Who's the Christian on the [44:09] Simpsons? [44:10] >> Oh, Flanders. Ned Flanders. Why diddly [44:14] do neighbor? That's not how we love each [44:16] other. [44:16] >> There we go. [44:17] >> We're just going to cut this out. [44:18] >> Yeah, we don't. [44:19] >> We're going to get a little more [44:20] Minnesota nice, including to [laughter] [44:22] our Somalian Minnesota neighbors. [44:24] >> Yeah. Um, who wrap this up about Black [44:27] History Month. By February, everything [44:28] will be fine. [44:29] >> By February, everything will be fine. [44:31] I'm not sure if I'm going to go that [44:32] far, but you heard Esau McCauy's [44:34] prediction right here. We will interview [44:36] him in March [laughter] and see how that [44:39] went. Hey everybody, welcome to 2026. [44:42] Welcome to the Holy Post. We're going to [44:44] keep talking about things you probably [44:46] don't want to hear about, but somebody [44:47] needs to talk about them. And we'll see [44:49] you next week. Goodbye. Last summer, I [44:52] tried poncho shirts for the first time, [44:54] and I told you how much I love them. [44:56] They look great. 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Stock up [48:02] now at dripdrop.com and use promo code [48:05] holyost. [48:07] It seems like everyone is talking about [48:08] anxiety [music] all the time. We had [48:11] Jonathan height on the show to talk [48:12] about his bestselling book, The Anxious [48:14] Generation, and the impact that social [48:16] [music] media and smartphones are having [48:18] on young people. We've talked about the [48:19] rising mental health crisis in America [48:21] and within the American church. And [48:23] there's [music] loads of data to back [48:24] this up with more people on anti-anxiety [48:27] medications than ever before. So, it's [48:29] not an exaggeration to say that we are [48:31] living in the age of anxiety, which is [48:34] why Sarah Bilip's [music] new book is so [48:36] timely. It's called Nervous System: [48:38] Spiritual Practices to Calm Anxiety in [48:41] Your Body, The Church, and Politics. [48:44] That subtitle really captures [music] [48:45] her unique take on this popular topic. [48:48] Rather than dealing with just one layer [48:49] of anxiety, she sees them as [48:51] interconnected. The anxiety that's [48:54] infecting the [music] American political [48:55] system, for example, is affecting many [48:57] of us personally as we engage [music] [48:59] the news or social media. But then we [49:01] carry this anxiety into our communal [49:03] lives in our churches. Caitlyn spoke [49:06] with Sarah Bilips about the book and the [49:07] practices she believes can help us both [49:09] individually and corporately to overcome [49:12] our nerves and become the non- anxious [49:14] presence [music] that our families, our [49:16] churches, and our whole culture needs [49:18] right now. Sarah Bilips is a writer and [49:21] cultural commentator who's written for [49:22] the New York Times and Christianity [49:24] Today. She has a doctorate of ministry [49:26] in the sacred art of writing, and you [49:28] can hear more from her on her Substack [49:30] page, Bitter Scroll, [music] and on her [49:32] podcast, That's the Spirit. Here is [49:35] Caitlyn's interview with Sarah Bilips. [49:38] >> Sarah Bilips, thank you so much for [49:40] joining me today. [49:42] >> Thanks, Caitlyn. It's good to be here. I [49:44] am so excited to talk about your new [49:45] book, Nervous Systems: Spiritual [49:48] Practices to Calm Anxiety in Your Body, [49:50] The Church, and Politics. I told you a [49:53] moment ago, the cover is fantastic. If [49:55] people can see it, they should look. If [49:56] they, you know, need to look it up [49:57] online. Beautiful cover. And just I [50:00] immediately when I saw this book [50:02] thought, thank goodness someone is [50:03] combining these things. I spend a lot of [50:06] time thinking about anxiety personally [50:08] and in politics and in the church. And [50:10] there's resources to think about each of [50:12] those three things. But I was so excited [50:13] to see that you had written on the three [50:15] of them together and especially kind of [50:17] spiritual practices in relationship to [50:18] them. But let's just start out with this [50:21] book. You might not be able to tell from [50:22] the cover title includes a lot of your [50:24] story about your family and your [50:27] children and kind of your experience [50:28] with anxiety. Talk about why you wanted [50:31] to write this book this way right now. [50:35] >> Yeah. uh you know I think you could [50:38] arably argue that not all eras are [50:40] anxious like this one um I think that [50:44] this question of how to live well in the [50:46] presence of anxiety was pretty top of [50:49] mind for me I mean I think you know I [50:51] think there's certainly for some of us [50:52] genetically some anxiety that we can see [50:54] in families for me it was very much that [50:56] and certainly like demonstrate it from [50:58] my dad specifically I joke that I was [51:01] worried over in the womb probably [51:03] worried over in the crib before I could [51:04] talk so just a lot modeling um [51:06] specifically around the body. And so in [51:09] the first part of the book, I just have [51:11] a kind of wondering about what it means [51:13] to carry anxiety, especially as we have [51:16] kids and we may see some of those [51:17] patterns come up in the next generation. [51:19] And in my own case, how I was caregiving [51:22] for my mom and dad as they were both my [51:24] dad recently passed but was unwell with [51:26] blood cancer for about 5 years. My mom [51:28] has Parkinson's disease, dementia. So I [51:30] think the stat is a quart about a [51:32] quarter of adults in the US are either [51:34] currently in the sandwich generation or [51:36] certainly we'll find ourselves there [51:38] sometime soon as the boomer generation [51:40] continues to age. And so you know I saw [51:42] myself in this interesting place where I [51:45] was doing a lot of caregiving all around [51:46] and then noticing anxiety in my own body [51:48] and wanting to understand that more. Um [51:50] but then looking around at the church [51:52] body and the body politic, it was pretty [51:54] easy to see this kind of breadcrumb [51:56] trail through, you know, the church is [51:58] just the gathered body of believers. [52:00] It's just uh people, individuals [52:02] gathered together. It's not kind of hard [52:04] to see kind of collective anxiety [52:05] responses then and certainly that would [52:07] scale up nationally and politically. Um [52:10] so I just wanted to explore that and [52:12] then also some practices that might be [52:14] able to help. Yeah, I I love that. And I [52:17] love how by talking about anxiety [52:19] personally in the church, in politics, [52:22] you're addressing this like underlying [52:24] issue. Whereas a lot of stuff right now [52:26] is addressing like what are the [52:27] presenting political failures or church [52:30] things that are going on. Instead, [52:31] you're addressing okay underneath there [52:33] is this shared experience from [52:35] individuals to these larger groups. [52:37] Let's start by talking about anxiety and [52:39] the body. you you mentioned in the book [52:41] there's a lot of focus culturally on the [52:43] body and wellness and even as I was [52:46] reading that part I realized that even [52:48] though as a Christian I care so deeply [52:51] about the body and the incarnation [52:53] teaches us so much about God's concern [52:54] for the body but I prickle a little bit [52:56] sometimes when I hear certain phrases [52:58] about the body and I also prickle when I [53:01] hear certain phrases about anxiety [53:02] because I you know we're so saturated in [53:04] therapy speak too so there's like [53:06] wellness culture therapy speak I get a [53:08] little bit nervous sometimes when I hear [53:10] all of that because of some of the ways [53:11] I've seen it misused. Talk to us a [53:14] little bit about a distinctly Christian [53:16] way of thinking about those things about [53:18] the body and particularly how we think [53:20] about the body in relationship to mental [53:22] health. [53:23] Yeah, I think that um I think that in [53:27] the book instead of trying to dig down [53:29] into more of the psycho, you know, I'm [53:31] not a psycho psychologist and not a [53:34] trained theologian, but I am a writer [53:36] and a person that thinks a lot about [53:38] culture. And so it was really fun and [53:40] interesting to think about, especially [53:42] as a person in her late 40s, how [53:44] wellness culture specifically kind of [53:47] insidiously is all around. And you know, [53:50] I think that there are good and healthy [53:52] practices that the kind of [53:54] consumer-based wellness culture more [53:56] broadly can offer many of us if we have [53:59] access to them. So I I think it's [54:01] important to kind of self-implicate too. [54:03] Like I see that I I myself I kind of [54:05] joke at one point I did a dryuary a [54:08] couple years ago um where instead of [54:10] having a glass of wine before dinner, I [54:11] would stop. I started to drink a lot of [54:14] um like turmeric juices and teas. [54:17] I tried to feed myself like soft like [54:19] kanji and porridge like I really tried [54:21] to take care but it became clear pretty [54:23] quickly that I felt a little bit better [54:25] but the kind of nagging um part of my [54:28] soul the thing that I was longing for [54:30] relief from the thing that um I wasn't [54:32] escaping was the kind of human condition [54:34] and the need to accept and move towards [54:36] the love of God. And so in the book I [54:38] talk a lot about how I began to think [54:40] about embodiment differently. You know, [54:42] I think that for me, Caitlyn, I again, [54:45] I'm kind of type A. I live in Seattle. I [54:48] don't I have a certain pace. And I think [54:50] I have this idea of the kind of wellness [54:53] version of embodiment as this [54:55] >> I this woman on a beach without her [54:57] shoes on in like Southern California, [54:59] like on the coast kind of stretching in [55:02] marine linen. And I thought, I'm not [55:03] embodied and I'm anxious and I'm trying [55:06] to be a part of wellness culture in a [55:07] way that seems interesting, but it's not [55:09] working. But I just began to think about [55:12] the person of Jesus, the incarnation, [55:14] being this ultimate example of [55:17] embodiment and how that kind of made me [55:20] see myself a little bit differently. Um, [55:22] instead of trying to kind of perform [55:23] into it, buy into it, [55:26] >> [clears throat] [55:26] >> um, kind of freeze time and do one more [55:28] kind of face serum into it. There was [55:30] this real there's this real kind of [55:32] Christian call towards being m being [55:35] very much um accepting of who we are [55:38] fully fully living in body and being [55:40] soul and spirit that I try to explore a [55:42] little bit um in the book. [55:44] >> Yeah. Talk to us about I mean as much as [55:46] you're comfortable with like personally [55:48] practice-wise, what has some of that [55:50] looked like for you? Because before we [55:51] get into some of the bigger structural [55:53] like church politics stuff [55:55] >> which tends to be what we talk about [55:56] more on this show. So, I'm I'm tempted [55:58] to like move very quickly into the [55:59] church and the politics stuff, but I [56:00] want to stop for a minute and just say [56:02] >> we talk a lot on the show about how our [56:05] personal anxieties feed into these [56:08] larger cultural things. And [56:10] >> sometimes I think people scoff at the [56:12] like spiritual formation way into [56:15] thinking about this like that you're [56:16] kind of avoiding the big structural [56:17] stuff. But I really want us to think for [56:20] many of the people listening, they've [56:21] probably heard us on this show talk [56:23] about this, but without saying much [56:24] specifically about like what could you [56:26] do or what's a practice that's helpful, [56:28] obviously it so depends on people in [56:30] their communities and their churches, [56:31] but could you just give us some examples [56:34] of things that you have found helpful [56:36] personally? [56:38] >> Yeah, I mean a few things. Uh the the [56:41] first the first thing to say is, you [56:43] know, growing up in the evangelical [56:44] church, a I think a lot of us had the [56:46] were fed the message that Catholics were [56:50] sort of maybe Christians but not really [56:52] Christians. Like I have a a lot of [56:53] Catholic family and there was some [56:55] suspicion or let's distance ourselves. [56:58] We're kind of on the same team and kind [56:59] of not. And so it it wasn't until um I [57:02] was well into my 30s that uh you know uh [57:05] a woman named Debbie Tachi Smith joined [57:07] uh our church at Grace Grace Seattle um [57:10] brought a lot of really grounded [57:13] contemplative practices into that [57:14] tradition. This is the mid2010s when I [57:16] think a lot of churches were really kind [57:18] of starting to explore some of some [57:20] practices like listening prayer just [57:22] really looking at ancient um Jesuit and [57:24] Benedicting practices um began to do [57:27] silent retreats um began to think about [57:30] prayer instead of a way as a way to kind [57:32] of plead a series of worries or asks on [57:36] behalf of myself or others to to start [57:38] to listen more to be in silence more. um [57:41] began to pray using lectio deina or the [57:44] examine or some other ways to kind of [57:46] look back across my day and invitation [57:48] to see how God shows up and meets us. Um [57:50] and then a a big thing for me and I this [57:53] the book kind of drives to this was the [57:55] these ignation spiritual exercises which [57:57] is really rooted in the practice of [58:00] sensing God's love. And so something [58:02] that I do now practically in the morning [58:05] instead of um praying in sort of a [58:08] pleading might I just sit for a couple [58:09] of minutes and I try to sense God's love [58:11] and that feels so basic Caitlyn like of [58:14] course [58:14] >> but it sounds really hard too actually. [58:17] [laughter] [58:17] >> Yeah. [58:18] >> It took me two years. So for two years [58:21] every morning I would pray a different [58:22] verse about God's love to try to I [58:24] thought maybe a year would be good but I [58:25] needed two just to really something that [58:27] we hear if we grow up in the church so [58:29] much of course is like God Jesus loves [58:31] you but then believing and metabolizing [58:34] that uh is a whole different story. So I [58:37] took time to kind of stop and give [58:39] myself space to really understand do I [58:42] feel loved? Can I receive love? Um so [58:44] practically that also means a lot of [58:47] walking, a lot of noticing, a lot of [58:48] being outside, a lot of listening, some [58:51] breath prayer has been really important [58:52] to me. [58:53] >> Things that again used to seem as a [58:56] person that feels less embodied in a [58:59] traditional way that I thought you know [59:01] was the stereotype. It took a while for [59:03] me to come into it, but when I did, I [59:04] began to feel like, oh, this isn't just [59:06] for me. This is like grounding me from [59:08] the inside out. And so, I think [59:09] embodiment can do that. [59:10] >> I love that. I My therapist regularly [59:13] says something about, you know, where do [59:15] you feel that in your body or what's [59:16] happening in your body? And I often want [59:18] to be like, I don't I'm feeling and [59:19] thinking things. It's in my brain. Like, [59:21] I don't even know what you're asking. [59:22] And it's been really helpful to go, oh, [59:24] I live a certain kind of life. And you [59:26] probably feel this way too, writer [59:28] around a lot of like academics and [59:30] creative people. And it's like I do tend [59:32] to think I live in my brain and I don't [59:35] pay attention even to what's happening [59:36] in my body. So even just like taking [59:39] that time, my first thought when you [59:40] were describing that was really thinking [59:42] about the love of God actually sounds [59:44] really hard. And doing anything where [59:45] you're kind of pausing and concentrating [59:47] sounds really hard. [59:49] >> That's um let's talk about the church a [59:51] little bit. I think on one hand if [59:53] someone said okay there's a lot of [59:55] anxiety in the church maybe the [59:56] evangelical church specifically but also [59:58] just the church in America broadly [60:00] people might very easily go like oh yes [60:01] of course but not think much about okay [60:03] what do we mean when we say that so when [60:05] you set out to write about anxiety in [60:07] the church what were the kinds of things [60:09] you were noticing that made you go oh [60:10] maybe anxiety is the thing that's [60:12] happening here that I need to write [60:13] about [60:13] >> yeah when I when I begin to think about [60:16] any scenario um of something that's [60:19] broken in the church thinking of abuses [60:21] of power Yeah. [60:22] >> Um, sexual abuse, harm, narcissism, [60:25] whatever the topic, whatever the [60:27] experience, it became kind of clear that [60:30] there is an anxiety response kind of [60:32] underlying all of that. I mean, those of [60:34] us that still identify as Christians and [60:37] go to church, um, I think have a fear [60:39] that it might happen to us, that our [60:42] leader might have might fall from grace, [60:44] that there could be some experience. [60:45] we're kind of bracing like what's going [60:47] to come even if it's not our our church [60:49] denominationally more broadly. Um so [60:52] there's a sense of unease and anxiety [60:53] kind of bracing and waiting. Those that [60:55] have [60:56] >> those that have left the church I think [60:58] just uh are seeing again and again [61:02] examples of why I think that may have [61:04] made sense in a lot of cases but then [61:06] maybe are feeling anxiety about what [61:08] does this mean for community? What does [61:09] this mean for my my place and finding [61:12] finding my people and finding other [61:13] people moving towards Jesus? And so if [61:15] we're in the church or outside of it, if [61:17] we're a congregation member, or if we're [61:21] a leader, a pastor or a priest or [61:23] somebody that works administratively, I [61:25] think that we see leaders circling the [61:29] wagon like protecting their maybe [61:31] there's sense, are they protecting [61:32] themselves, protecting their power? [61:34] Those are anxiety responses too, even if [61:36] that's happening. And so there's these [61:38] different camps that are kind of [61:39] polarized, set against each other. We [61:42] believe the worst about each other. I [61:43] think underneath if you kind of dig down [61:45] underneath all of that, [61:47] >> I I think we're really trying to grasp [61:49] that control and certainty and be okay. [61:52] And that's all anxiety. [61:53] >> Yeah, absolutely. And I I I as you [61:56] describe in the book see this happening [61:58] both in the kinds of churches I grew up [62:00] in more conservative evangelical [62:02] churches and then I see it happening in [62:04] people who leave those churches and [62:05] maybe go to a more progressive church or [62:08] even go to kind of a spiritual not [62:09] religious you know kind of community [62:11] >> and have shed some of the theology but [62:13] have kept some of the anxiety and it [62:15] keeps popping up and it's undelt with [62:17] and one of the things you you talk about [62:18] in that section that I've never really [62:20] thought much about [62:22] >> is kind of the moral obsession of like [62:24] and this is what I see so often staying [62:26] from one end of the spectrum to the [62:27] other even if you move is like anxiety [62:30] around doing it all right politically, [62:33] theologically and having that drive like [62:37] you said some of the polarization, some [62:39] of the us versus then. So can you talk a [62:42] little bit about that kind of obsession [62:44] with getting like you said control but [62:46] also just being correct morally because [62:48] I think some of us assume that occurs [62:50] maybe in the fundamentalist or verging [62:52] on fundamentalist group that we grew up [62:54] in. Yeah. [62:55] >> And then sometimes don't realize that [62:56] maybe that's some of the anxiety that [62:58] still is animating us today. [63:01] >> Yeah. It's such a good question. I mean [63:03] gosh there's so many different ways I [63:05] could answer it. I think that I think [63:07] that there's this idea of wanting to [63:10] feel safe and all right and correct [63:13] because of the sort of uh always kind of [63:16] looming slippery slope. You know, [63:18] there's this idea that if I'm not [63:20] doubling down, if I'm not extra right, [63:23] then maybe that means I'm a step away [63:25] from from my faith slipping. Maybe that [63:28] means that if I instead of meeting [63:30] someone with curiosity and non- [63:32] anxiousness and love um if I see that [63:35] what if they go down the slippery slope, [63:37] how does that what does that implicate [63:38] about me? And you know, I wrote I wrote [63:40] this book um organ believers that came [63:42] out in 2023 and it looked at growing up [63:44] in the 80s and 90s in ways that [63:46] >> nationalism and culture war stuff kind [63:48] of could be threaded through to today. [63:49] And when that came out, I just remember [63:52] everybody that I talked to, um, maybe [63:54] you had like an uncle that was into [63:56] Pizzagate or QAnon, or maybe it was just [63:59] at Thanksgiving, there was a strange [64:01] family relationship or dynamic at [64:02] church. Um, but everybody wanted to kind [64:05] of reach across the table and reconcile. [64:07] There was this longing to be repaired. [64:09] Um, but now, I mean, Caitlyn, you [64:12] probably noticed this as well online and [64:14] in broader spaces and certainly in the [64:17] church, there's almost this feeling of [64:19] division because [64:22] it's almost like um we're worried about [64:24] being contaminated by the other. It's [64:27] almost like if we reach across the [64:29] aisle, what does that implicate about [64:31] us? What does that say about who we are? [64:33] Um, and we want to feel safe and we want [64:35] to feel um, clear and like we are [64:38] aligned with what we believe. But [64:40] whatever side of the aisle you're on, I [64:42] mean, I think that there's just it Jesus [64:44] calls us to love the enemy. But if we [64:46] make the enemy the other [64:48] >> that where does that play out? It just [64:50] becomes an act of war. I mean, there is [64:52] no reconciliation, there is no healing, [64:54] there is no way forward when we double [64:55] down. And that is something that I very [64:57] much see in the church and also more [64:59] broadly in politics too. And so I really [65:02] wanted to think through what do we do? [65:05] What do we do? Um [65:06] >> yeah. Oh, I'd love to let's talk about [65:08] the the politics too because even what [65:09] you just said though like I don't want [65:10] to be contaminated. I see this so much [65:13] in terms of [65:14] >> not just like my association with [65:16] someone who I believe really might hold [65:19] to political or theological things that [65:21] I think are really deeply wrong. Somehow [65:23] that, you know, impinges on my moral [65:26] purity. But some of the what I hear [65:28] online and we'll get feedback about this [65:30] on the podcast if we if we do too much [65:31] one week of like you know ask questions [65:34] and be curious about your you know Trump [65:36] supporting family member or whatever [65:38] >> some of the push back will be well that [65:41] isn't taking the issues seriously enough [65:44] like if you knew what was at stake then [65:46] you couldn't extend that kind of [65:48] kindness and curiosity and compassion. [65:50] So can you talk a little bit about in [65:52] the church or in politics, [65:54] >> how how can we have a non- anxious [65:57] presence when there are a lot of [65:59] legitimate things to be anxious about? [66:01] Like how can we extend that to someone [66:03] when we want to say not only do we think [66:06] our differences matter, but they affect [66:08] people's lives and the stakes are there [66:10] without having those stakes do what they [66:12] tend to do in our political culture, [66:13] which is just amp up amp up amp until [66:16] yeah, it is all war. I can't there's no [66:17] room for relationship or compromise. [66:20] Yeah, totally. I think that yeah, again, [66:22] these being anxiety responses turn us [66:24] inward and the way of peacemaking has to [66:27] be outward. And in fact, it seems like [66:29] if we're afraid, we might be [66:31] >> implicated, contaminated, not okay. Um [66:34] there is there is um [66:36] >> there is no way to sort of not deal that [66:39] it's easy to not deal with our own stuff [66:40] in those situations. And I think that [66:42] you know in the book I talk about um the [66:45] work of Edwin Freeman who is this rabbi [66:47] and family systems therapist and he [66:50] wrote this book called filler of nerve [66:51] came out in 2007 but it was written in [66:53] the run-up to Y2K widely a different [66:56] time of kind of collective anxiety and [66:57] he talks about this idea of non- anxious [67:00] presence the idea of how as a leader how [67:03] we model anxiety flows down um so he was [67:07] a religious person but he was he was [67:09] speaking from a different kind of [67:10] specialty or expertise But I've thought [67:11] a lot about that in terms of leadership [67:13] in the church and more broadly [67:15] politically and also individually. I [67:18] mean, I think we're all leading all the [67:19] time in our own ways, be it our [67:21] neighborhoods or family systems or or [67:23] whatever it is. And so I was really [67:25] curious about how when we model being [67:28] non- anxious, just like when we model [67:30] anxiety, we quickly pick it up like a [67:32] fever, it begins to kind of calm and [67:34] give us the window or the kind of [67:36] curtain pulls back so we can begin to [67:38] really see the other in their humanity [67:40] and to not be afraid. Um, and then the [67:43] to be less afraid. And then the other [67:45] idea I think a little bit about is this [67:46] um this idea of how I [snorts] think as [67:50] Christians we need to learn how to lose, [67:51] you know, and I think that that was [67:53] certainly the way of Jesus, you know, [67:55] that was certainly the way of the cross. [67:57] And I think when we realize if we're [68:01] trying to follow the way of Jesus that [68:02] it is not up to us to save the church, [68:05] it is not up to us to do anything except [68:07] be faithful to show up to use our hands [68:10] and our mouths for service and justice. [68:13] If we believe that Jesus wants the [68:15] church to thrive and and then that's not [68:18] really our job and it's okay to lose the [68:21] fight because we more broadly are secure [68:23] in where things are going. Like if we [68:26] believe this whole wild um possibility [68:29] if we believe it then we we do need to [68:31] believe that all things will be made [68:32] well. All sad things will become untrue [68:35] and that redemption will happen. And so [68:37] more broadly and more thinking much more [68:39] further ahead I think there's a lot of [68:40] comfort in that. [68:41] >> Yeah. Oh, I love that. Um, one of the [68:44] points that I I kept coming back to in [68:46] the book, which I've heard other people [68:47] talk about, but not quite in the context [68:49] that you've talked about, like you were [68:50] just saying, being a non- anxious [68:51] presence, but particularly the church [68:53] being having the potential to model that [68:56] for people. And I'm just curious, I [68:59] mean, you are deeply involved in your [69:02] church. Your husband is a priest. Like, [69:03] you see the inner workings of this. And [69:05] we have a lot of people who listen who [69:06] are pastors or are in some kind of [69:08] leadership role in their church. A lot [69:10] of them as you talk about in the book [69:11] are are anxious are exhausted are [69:14] exhausted by the general anxiety of [69:16] their congregations or their [69:17] denomination or what would you say from [69:20] that perspective a non- anxious presence [69:23] as a leader andor a non- anxious church [69:26] like what's our how would we know how [69:28] what would we see if we looked around [69:29] our church and it had been impacted by a [69:31] non- anxious presence what would be [69:33] different about it [69:34] >> yeah I think a few things come to mind [69:37] so we have a priest named Jamie at Grace [69:40] who has brought a lot of cool embodied [69:42] practices to church. One Sunday we we've [69:44] always been small. Um when Mars Hill [69:46] employed it, we kind of doubled to maybe [69:48] 300, but we've always been about 150. [69:50] That was, you know, in 2014, we had a [69:52] big It was Anyways, um the perfect size. [69:55] [laughter] [69:56] >> Yeah, me too. It's always felt right. Um [70:00] >> so we did this practice because there [70:02] were enough of us that we could still [70:03] fit where everybody, she asked Jamie [70:05] asked everyone to stand around the [70:06] sanctuary. She had a really like a kind [70:08] of heavy stone and she held it and she [70:10] said, "I'm going to pass this to the [70:12] person on my right and if you feel [70:13] comfortable, [70:14] >> tell the person on your right something [70:16] you're carrying and then give them the [70:18] stone and then say, "By the grace of [70:21] Jesus, I'll carry this with you." And so [70:23] we just stood there in this like [70:25] embodied emotional like very unifying [70:28] collective way and went around for about [70:30] 20 minutes and [70:32] >> nobody knew what the other person was [70:34] saying. But then I think we were all [70:35] just kind of praying for people as it [70:36] was going around and [70:37] >> just this like ultimate example of like [70:40] unity. We're all coming with whatever [70:42] we're carrying. We're all coming with [70:44] hearts that are joyful or heavy. We're [70:46] all doubting or feeling strong. We can [70:49] carry each other. And so this stone was [70:51] kind of this example of that. And so um [70:53] I think that the idea of building wells, [70:56] not fences is uh has been really helpful [70:58] for [clears throat] for Grace. Again, [71:00] this idea that fences are an anxiety [71:03] response, but if a church can draw [71:05] wells, if the church can be centered on [71:07] the goodness and way of Jesus, there's [71:09] such security there. And instead of [71:11] >> it's a way of kind of shephering people [71:13] towards the way of Jesus instead of [71:14] trying to keep them in with some kind of [71:16] specific political or social uh [71:19] framework, you know, and then [71:21] >> I think the other thing is just this [71:23] idea of of being honest, of not painting [71:26] a rosy picture. We all know it's bad out [71:29] there. So, let's let's talk about uh uh [71:32] being present together in the midst of [71:33] it so that we can move forward in [71:35] service instead of trying to pretend [71:37] that it's that it's not. [71:38] >> Oh, I I love that. Um speaking of the [71:41] church, you talk a little bit towards [71:42] the end of the book about distinctly [71:44] evangelical anxiety. Um and I and I [71:48] there's a lot of conversation about [71:49] evangelical anxiety. Um there's a book [71:51] called evangelical anxiety. There's um [71:54] uh what's the phrase people are using? [71:55] um rapture trauma or or you know like [71:58] the sense that there were some distinct [72:00] experiences about growing up evangelical [72:02] especially in a particular period in [72:04] history that was not just distinct [72:07] politically or theologically but came [72:09] with like a way of being in the world [72:12] and we've already kind of mentioned you [72:13] know one of my interests is like how [72:15] does that way of being in the world [72:16] translate even once you've left that [72:18] particular church or that political [72:19] advocacy [clears throat] [72:20] >> talk a little bit about what what is [72:22] specifically evangelical anxiety What [72:25] does that look like? [72:27] >> Yeah. So, I I tell that that story in [72:30] the book and that chapter is really more [72:32] a more about my own Yeah. [72:33] >> my own experience with my particular [72:35] church. So, it's a little more memory, [72:36] but I think there are specific universal [72:39] pieces that come out of it, too. I mean, [72:42] growing up um in the 80s and 90s, like a [72:45] lot of kids, uh I think the idea was to [72:49] be good and to be ready because we were [72:52] told Jesus was coming back probably in [72:54] our lifetime. Uh you know, my husband [72:57] Drew was told that he wouldn't, like [72:59] many people, wouldn't probably marry or [73:01] have a family and he remembers just [73:03] crying in the backseat of his car. So I [73:06] think that the way that a lot of us were [73:08] raised instead of there being a freedom [73:11] from anxiety because the love of Jesus [73:13] was so compelling instead of being [73:15] wellformed by the way of Jesus um I [73:18] think I was formed by the mall. I was [73:20] formed by like the mall on Saturday [73:22] church on Sunday I was formed by um [73:25] youth group culture that was really [73:27] around around purity and I and waiting. [73:30] And I think that I was formed around [73:32] this idea of the enemy um always lurking [73:35] and if we're not careful, we will be [73:37] devoured. And so that led to pleading in [73:40] prayer every night like many of us um [73:43] Jesus come into my heart. Jesus come [73:45] into my heart. Am I okay? Am I safe? And [73:48] so I was sort of like uh not just in my [73:50] own home modeled anxiety, but really in [73:53] a lot of church settings that was kind [73:54] of the model. And so again, it took a [73:58] long it takes a long time, I think, for [74:00] some of us to unpack that and shed some [74:02] of that and to then think about how to [74:04] be better formed, especially if we're [74:07] raising kids in a world that is quite [74:09] complicated and quite broken. Um, and so [74:12] I also talk a little bit in the book [74:13] about scrupulosity or moral OCD or this [74:17] idea that if we read the the Bible [74:20] enough or if we act the right way that [74:23] maybe then we'll be okay. And again, how [74:25] there's this call to Jesus to kind of [74:27] calm down and settle into that love that [74:29] takes a lot longer to sense and a lot is [74:31] a lot quieter and a lot more um a lot [74:34] more spacious maybe. [74:35] >> Yeah. Oh, I love that. I I have often [74:37] talked to friends of mine about Yeah. [74:39] How have you slowly over time overcome [74:41] the sense of like, do I have to every [74:43] communion pray another like am I sure am [74:45] I sure I'm saved prayer? Like every [74:47] night when I'm a little anxious pray I'm [74:48] sure. Am I sure I'm saved prayer? Yeah. [74:50] >> Um, [74:50] >> yeah. [74:51] >> I'm curious, Sarah, we're we're almost [74:52] out of time and I want to spend some [74:54] time on on another question um for Holy [74:56] Post Plus, but I'm curious. You go into [74:59] I have this experience. You go into [75:01] writing a book with a bunch of ideas [75:02] that you're really excited to write [75:03] about. And in my experience, you both [75:06] are sometimes surprised while you're [75:07] writing it that some things pop up that [75:09] were not in your, you know, proposal for [75:11] this book or your plan for writing it. [75:12] And then even sometimes after you [75:14] finished it and it's like published and [75:16] done, but you're talking about it a lot, [75:17] there are things that surprise you that [75:18] come up. What was it like to actually [75:21] sit down and write, as we've mentioned a [75:23] little bit, a memoiry book about [75:26] anxiety? Are there things that surprised [75:28] you writing it about yourself or your [75:30] history? And is there anything that by [75:32] the end of it you're like, "Oh, I didn't [75:33] know this was going to matter so much, [75:34] but it played a big part in this book." [75:38] >> Yeah. Gosh. Um, you know, the book at [75:41] points is is deeply personal. And so I [75:44] wrote a lot of it. I I did this um [75:46] doctor of ministry program at the [75:47] Peterson Eugene Peterson Center at [75:48] Western Seminary called the sacred art [75:50] of writing. And so about a third of it [75:52] was written uh during that program. So [75:54] it was heavily workshopped. I also had [75:56] lived enough life and had enough [75:58] distance from some of this stuff to be [76:00] able to write about it. But it is quite [76:02] personal and revealing, Caitlyn. And so [76:03] I thought, how is it really going to be [76:05] when it's in the world? And I have to [76:07] tell you, it's it felt great. I think [76:09] it's it's it was like a wonderful [76:11] surprise that I actually think that if [76:13] any of this is helpful, if talking about [76:15] scrupulosity is helpful, if talking [76:16] about anxiety in the church is [76:19] resonating, like that's such a gift, [76:21] like profound gift. So, I've been [76:23] surprised at how I've felt pretty pretty [76:24] light about it and really good about it. [76:26] Um but more broadly gosh I think that um [76:30] that growing up the hearing the [76:33] biatitudes about not worrying hearing us [76:35] hearing Jesus say don't worry like the [76:37] flowers not don't worry about the birds [76:40] like gosh as a kid even like longing for [76:42] that but not being able to experience it [76:44] and thinking what is wrong why can I not [76:46] experience what Jesus is telling me [76:48] there's this central question of my life [76:50] like why can I why can I not find relief [76:53] why can I why not be afraid of it and [76:55] what I learned writing the [76:56] And I spoiler alert talk about pretty [76:58] quickly is that God did not take away my [77:00] anxiety. I think often Jesus keeps our [77:02] anxiety. Um uh maybe we can learn good [77:06] practices to bring it down a bit which I [77:07] I think I have. But there's this [77:09] invitation that in the very presence of [77:10] suffering, in the very presence of uh [77:13] trial and talking about my mom and dad [77:15] and and their own struggles as a [77:17] caregiver and their own bodies, um in [77:19] the very presence of affliction is [77:22] certainly where we meet Jesus, where [77:23] we're able to reach across to other [77:25] people and really be able to be grateful [77:27] for [77:28] >> for life and God's love. So, [77:30] >> I love that so much. Well, thank you, [77:32] Sarah, for for writing so honestly and [77:34] vulnerably about your own life and your [77:36] family and and thank you, as I said [77:38] before, for giving us this sense of how [77:41] these different pieces work together [77:43] when these conversations tend to be [77:44] separate. Um, if you have a few minutes, [77:47] I would love to do a little bonus [77:48] conversation about one of the parts of [77:49] the book that um, I found really [77:51] interesting and plays into this [77:52] conversation about anxiety and [77:54] relationships in the church, which [77:56] spoiler for the people listening not on [77:58] Holy Post Plus, involves the phrase [78:00] energy vampires, which I found [78:02] fascinating. Um, so we'll stick around [78:04] for a minute to talk about that, but [78:05] thank you so much Sarah for your time [78:07] today. [78:07] >> Thank you. This was great. Thanks. [78:09] >> Hi everyone. I hate doing this, but our [78:11] producer Mike is making me tell you to [78:13] like and subscribe so that you can see [78:15] more Holy Post videos and other people [78:17] can see them, too.