707: Halftime Hullabaloo and Tyler Johnson  ## Document Notes ## Highlights - **Halftime Controversy Driven By Money Not Uniqueness** - Bad Bunny's Spanish halftime show controversy was fueled more by money and political outrage than uniqueness. - Phil argues the NFL chose popularity and Turning Point USA monetized outrage with its alternative event. Transcript: Phil Vischer Were you familiar with Bad Bunny before all of this? A little bit. A little bit. I'm not into it. I've seen him on Saturday Night Live. Right. That's where I've... Caitlin Schess I have heard his music. Skye Jethani He was the most streamed artist in 2025 and 2022 and 2021 and 2020. He's popular. He's very big. He is popular. Phil Vischer Yes. Are we going to do this? Every third word is going to be in a Spanish pronunciation? Yeah. I'm appreciating our Latino neighbors, friends and neighbors, by embracing and or stealing and ruining their language. Appropriating. Caitlin Schess C. We have words for those things. C. Okay. Phil Vischer So I didn't really scrutinize it. This was interesting because people were mad because he was going to sing in Spanish. But also, and I didn't even hear about this, he often performs in dresses and sort of being transgender or trans of cross-dressing or. Yeah, I was going to say not being transgender. Sorry, not being transgender. But he does gender bend. He gender benders. Caitlin Schess Yep. Phil Vischer I didn't know about that part. So some people were upset about that. So we got when it was announced that he was going to do the show, we got the Turning Point USA. Oh, well, we're going to do a show for Americans. We're going to do the American show. Skye Jethani Hold on a second. Caitlin Schess Actually, not just American. Over here. The like, how was it marketed? Like more clean, more... Skye Jethani Faith, freedom, family. Yeah. Yeah. Family, faith, and freedom. Christian-y. Hold on. Can we slow down for a second? Phil Vischer It was Christian adjacent. Skye Jethani I did a little research. Oh. Since 2002, seven of the halftime performances at the Super Bowl have been performed by non-Americans, either individuals or groups. So the idea that- But not this year. I know. He's an American citizen. He's from Puerto Rico. Yeah. Phil Vischer So he's more American than U2, Rolling Stones, or Coldplay. Skye Jethani Yeah. And Shania Twain, who's Canadian, and The Weeknd, who's not American, and Shakira and Rihanna. Rihanna. Rihanna. Rihanna. Rihanna. Rihanna. Old man conversation. Yeah, just met a girl named Rihanna. Okay, so number one, there's been seven performances that were not from Americans. Number two, as I mentioned earlier, there has been another performance that was predominantly in Spanish. Was it predominantly? There was a lot of Spanish. Caitlin Schess But I will say, even though you're trying to point out this was not unique, a lot of people, including scholars, have commented on the fact that people like Shakira, to gain mainstream, Popularity needed to adjust to doing a lot. Phil Vischer They record English versions of mine. Skye Jethani Whereas Bad Bunny does not. But then the third point I would make is there have been a lot of halftime performances, including very recently, that were far more sexually provocative and explicit than this one. Far more? Oh, yeah. Far more? Caitlin Schess I mean, we- Someone's clothes came off once. Yeah, we had a wardrobe malfunction at one point. Skye Jethani But even, like, some of the performance, I mean, look, I remember the way Beyonce was dressed in one of her performances was like, hello. Yeah. You know, so there's been some very recent... This one, I mean, there's... Medium. You can point at some things, but, like, when you put it all together, there was nothing uniquely scandalous about this halftime show. Yeah. In who performed, how they performed, or even the language thing, which was... I mean, you're talking about the number one streaming artist in the world for like the last five years. This is not an obscure decision on the NFL's part to choose this artist. Phil Vischer And you don't think the NFL did it to poke at the Trump administration? Not at all. Because big companies just love to have Trump angry with them. Skye Jethani The majority of the NFL owners are incredibly wealthy white men who are Republicans. Yeah. Number two. Did they not know? Number two, the ultimate goal of the NFL is to expand their viewership and their audience, including internationally. So of course, you're going to pick the most popular artists in the world. That's not a huge stretch. ([Time 0:05:41](https://share.snipd.com/snip/1b911bfc-f083-45f3-92a0-5bd47ec4f75d)) - **Jesus As Part Of Football Culture** - Football culture increasingly includes public expressions of Christian faith, especially thanking Jesus after games. - Hosts note this can normalize faith for kids but risk turning belief into an in-group cultural ritual. Transcript: Phil Vischer It's a football thing. They're talking about- It is a football thing. It didn't used to be. It didn't used to be. So this was a piece in Washington Post called Christianity at the Super Bowl defies a trend by Paul Putz. Skye Jethani He's been on the show. Phil Vischer I was going to say. Paul Putz has been on the show. Yeah. Skye Jethani He wrote a book. I interviewed him about it. He's a scholar of Christianity and sports. Phil Vischer Director of the Faith and Sports Institute at Baylor University's Truett Seminary. America has grown more secular over the past century. One area of American life, however, has bucked the trend. Major sporting events such as the Super Bowl have become more, not less, religious over time. Except the halftime shows. Today, athletes are some of the most prominent Christians in public life, far exceeding any pastor or priest. And the interviews offered at the end of sporting events may be the only time many Americans will hear a proclamation of faith. That's an interesting point. Caitlin Schess That is interesting. Phil Vischer And then he goes back in history. In 1926, it hasn't always been this way. In 1926, when Red Grange and the Chicago Bears visited New Orleans to play a game, an evangelist named Howard Williams saw no room for collaboration. To even attend the game was to call into question one's faith, said Howard. There will not be a single Christian man, woman, boy, or girl to attend that New Orleans Sunday game. Oh, it's because it was on Sunday. That's why. Skye Jethani Isn't that ironic? Phil Vischer Yeah. That is ironic. That wouldn't even occur to me. Skye Jethani That shows how far I've fallen. Yeah. The sport most associated with Christianity is the one that has built its entire platform on violating the Sabbath. Caitlin Schess Pulls more high schoolers out of church than anything else. Phil Vischer Oh, my goodness. More high schoolers out of church. Caitlin Schess For football games. Phil Vischer They're not on Sunday. The high school ones are not on Sunday. Those are usually Friday night. Caitlin Schess To watch? I don't know. High school games are Friday night. Phil Vischer College games are Saturday. Skye Jethani They're pulling them out of the mosque. Phil Vischer Hey, I would just like to support Caitlin for really trying to enter into a conversation about sports. Caitlin Schess We've been talking about sports for 10 minutes, and I tried to say something. Phil Vischer Okay. But now when the contest starts, players will be found at various points kneeling in prayer and pointing upward to God in celebration. And he says he, and it's amazing, particularly in college football. Caitlin Schess Is that on Sundays? Skye Jethani Saturday. Oh, okay. Phil Vischer Saturday. Skye Jethani High school's Friday. Okay, okay. College Saturday. The number one. Caitlin Schess The better you get, the less religious your observance can be. Skye Jethani Something like that. Phil Vischer The number one draft pick in the upcoming draft, who was the star quarterback last year. Fernando Mendoza. Fernando Mendoza and his brother, who's the backup quarterback. His little brother's his backup quarterback. That's fun. Anyway, every time you point a camera at him, he thanks Jesus. He talks about Jesus first. And I kind of have this thing with my wife where when I hear football players and basketball players thank Jesus for winning, I get a little cynical. It's like, oh, would you do that if they didn't? And my wife thinks I'm too cynical, but we have, so we started watching. And if someone talks about Jesus. You take a drink. Milk. Of communion wine. Caitlin Schess Of course. Phil Vischer But doesn't attribute their victory or performance to God. You know, we could, we could all, because some of them will say, we could only do what we did today because of God. It's like, oh, come on. And the other team was, they were worshiping Satan. What happened? Quite a few don't though. And it, and it feel, and I've always suspected, are they being coached? You know, are they in fellowship of Christian athletes? Are they in one of these other organizations? Because there are a number of Christian athletics organizations that started in the, when did they start? Since the 1950s. Fellowship of Christian Athletes, Pro Athletes Outreach, Athletes in Action, networks of Christian athletes that meet together. Because I find a lot of them use similar language when they're thanking their Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. And I'm not saying it's, I think it's sincere. I think it's totally sincere and I'm not opposed to it. It's just interesting that they're using similar language. Skye Jethani Is part of this the evangelical celebrity culture thing, which basically says if you get a lot of attention and there's lots of cameras on you, that's how you spread the gospel. And so if you're an athlete and you get lots of attention and there's cameras on you, you need to make sure that Jesus, like that seems to be an evangelist. Like do Roman Catholics do this? Do mainline people do this? Or is it like evangelical Christianity is coaching people that when you have cameras on you, you have to talk about Jesus? Yeah. Phil Vischer You either say you're going to Disney World or you say, thank you, Jesus. I'm going to Disney World and I'm bringing Jesus with me. Skye Jethani But I mean, when I was a college student, I was no athlete, obviously, but I was in a campus ministry and- You think that's obvious? Yeah, it should be. Okay. And kind of what we were formed to think is a couple of things. One, use every opportunity you have when you have people's attention to talk about Jesus. Number two, try to get the athletes and the professors who have a lot of influence to come to your Bible study. And then that's how you'll change. It was all about... Phil Vischer And that was, I don't know if it was one particular campus ministry that made that a point of target the cool kids. Because if you get the cool kids, everyone else will come. Skye Jethani Ironically, the year... Phil Vischer And that's what Jesus did. I think we can look back. Skye Jethani Ironically, there was a year, my sophomore year, where that message came in really hot and heavy at the beginning of the year from the campus ministry. And the only person I saw come to faith in Jesus that year was the 50-something woman who lived in town and cleaned the bathrooms in our dorm. And I attribute that to my roommate. So clearly you did it wrong. Well, no, it was fascinating because I thought this is actually what the kingdom of God kind of looks like. I mean, I'm not against athletes coming to faith, obviously, but I don't think we should overlook that person who gets overlooked. Phil Vischer So how do we feel about all of the professional athletes thanking God? Skye Jethani I do like it when there's more to it than thanking God for the victory. Yeah. I think it's... I don't know. I haven't seen an interview with an athlete who actually thanks God after being defeated. Yeah. Phil Vischer They often don't get... Interviewed. Sometimes they do. Yeah, that's right. Sometimes they do. Skye Jethani But I'm sure they're out there. I just haven't seen it. But I think that would be, I would, if I were mentoring a superstar athlete. And why aren't you? I would be so encouraged to hear someone after losing a game say kind of a Philippians 4.13 situation where it's like, you know what? As a follower of Jesus, I'm learning to do all things through his strength, including ([Time 0:15:00](https://share.snipd.com/snip/380b1d40-213f-4629-b797-e76242656ad1)) - **Campus Ministry Targeting The 'Cool Kids'** - Skye recounts campus ministry strategies to target influential students for evangelism. - The only conversion he saw was a 50-something woman who cleaned dorm bathrooms, showing unexpected fruit. Transcript: Skye Jethani Ironically, the year... Phil Vischer And that's what Jesus did. I think we can look back. Skye Jethani Ironically, there was a year, my sophomore year, where that message came in really hot and heavy at the beginning of the year from the campus ministry. And the only person I saw come to faith in Jesus that year was the 50-something woman who lived in town and cleaned the bathrooms in our dorm. And I attribute that to my roommate. So clearly you did it wrong. Well, no, it was fascinating because I thought this is actually what the kingdom of God kind of looks like. I mean, I'm not against athletes coming to faith, obviously, but I don't think we should overlook that person who gets overlooked. ([Time 0:20:34](https://share.snipd.com/snip/48e4e872-d656-4f81-9b9d-38e87dc0034e)) - **Coach Athletes To Speak Faithfully** - Mentor athletes to speak about faith with depth, especially after losses. - Model messages that express disappointment, gratitude, and reliance on God rather than only victory claims. Transcript: Skye Jethani I'm sure they're out there. I just haven't seen it. But I think that would be, I would, if I were mentoring a superstar athlete. And why aren't you? I would be so encouraged to hear someone after losing a game say kind of a Philippians 4.13 situation where it's like, you know what? As a follower of Jesus, I'm learning to do all things through his strength, including learning how to lose well. Yeah. And I'm so grateful for many things in my life, including the presence of God. I'm grateful for my team. I'm grateful that. And yet I'm disappointed by this loss, but it doesn't change who I am or what I, but you know, that would be a meaningful message. And I'm sure some athlete out there has done that. ([Time 0:21:30](https://share.snipd.com/snip/46d995f8-f09c-4531-b132-3ba4becaf845)) - **Gender Debate Holds A Contradictory Double View** - Culture debates treat gender both as social construction and as an innate 'sex of the soul', a logical contradiction. - Bonnie Kristian and guests note many hold both views simultaneously, creating confusion. Transcript: Phil Vischer Would you say we're obsessed with gender? I would say yes. Who's we? We Americans. Sky. Bonnie Christian is obsessed with gender. No, she's writing a piece for Christianity Today with the title, We Are Obsessed With Gender. And let me give you just a little bit of what she's talking about. She says, we think about gender too much. We talk about gender too much. We are ruminative, mulling, mulling, mulling what it means to be a woman, to feel like a real man, to be masculine, but not toxic, or feminine, but not retrograde, to flout stereotypes And profit from them, to willingly choose the only option our grandmothers ever had to cut into our bodies to make them meet the very social standards and vanities we denounce. Our obsession is not limited to one side of the culture war. To be sure, the left-wing version is the more obvious and disquieting, but the right-wing version is more familiar. Trad wife influencing burly men who drink whiskey, grow big beards, wear flannel and recordformed Theology podcasts and get mad at Phil Vischer. She should have said that. President Donald Trump supporters work up AI images that plop his head onto cartoonishly masculine bodies. She brings up Kristi Noem. And I would expand it to the entire MAGA feminine look. If you join the administration, you need to look like a barbified version of that role. Yeah, it's like an iPhone filter at this point. It is. Bonnie says, when I was a child, she's been on the show, right? We've had, yeah, yeah, certainly we've had her on the show. When I was a child, gender was a polite euphemism for sex. But the way we now speak about gender in popular conversation is downstream of the convoluted work of academic gender theorists. So she says there are two ways we speak about gender, and they're kind of in conflict with another. Sometimes we distinguish between gender and sex, that sex is the biological fact, while gender is about the cultural expectations, norms, and habits related to each sex. Gender is a social construct, is the common phrase. But sometimes we speak about gender as, and she's quoting a Catholic scholar who's describing what she sees in culture, the sex of the soul, the innate manhood or womanhood that may Or may not align with the sex of the body. In this understanding, gender is decidedly not a mere construct, but is rather a pre-social reality, inner truth against which the body must be measured. Sex of the Soul sounds like the worst premarital book ever. Caitlin Schess Yep, it does. Phil Vischer Later we can play a little game as who would be most likely to have written that book. Oh my gosh. It is incoherent to hold these two colloquial ideas of gender simultaneously. Gender cannot be both an external social construct and an internal indisputable sex of the soul. And then she goes on to talk about thinking of a couple of authors, Christian author Leah Labresco Sargent. Who was just on the show recently. Yeah, last week's interview. Oh my gosh. That was her? She was great. We are so, we're with it. We are with it. We are in the moment. Next week we're having Bad Bunny on the show. All in Spanish. Leah Sargent says in an interview that being a man or woman is not dependent on our feelings or actions. ([Time 0:27:51](https://share.snipd.com/snip/1f660360-27bc-4b54-a84d-2a821d5ce9d6)) - **Isolation Intensifies Gender Fixation** - Both left and right are obsessed with gender, but for different reasons and with different prescriptions. - Caitlin emphasizes isolation and online life intensify rumination about identity and gender roles. Transcript: Caitlin Schess Part of what she's talking about on the left is that there's both this idea that gender is entirely socially constructed. Like anything about what it means to be a man or a woman other than just the biological difference of our bodies. Is society. Is just society. Like it doesn't come from anywhere eternal. It's not set in stone. It's just. Skye Jethani Girls like pink and play with dolls because society has taught them. Caitlin Schess Because someone handed them a doll. Yes. So there's on one hand this idea that it all boils down to social construction. Not that there's some social construction, but social construction is everything. And on the other hand, there's a lot of talk about gender that assumes or explicitly says that gender is this innate, unchangeable, personal, and determinative thing about you. Not only is it this deep understanding you have and only you have, no one else shapes it. It's just your knowledge. It also determines sometimes kind of everything about you. It's one of the most important things about you. So those two things cannot both be true because either your gender is something innate to you and social construction has nothing to do with it, or it's socially constructed, in which Case your sense of your gender might be shaped more by people outside of you than by yourself. But somehow we want to hold both of those two together. Skye Jethani Online discussions about the transgender movement, because there's a sense of I might be XY chromosomed male, but in my inner self, I know myself to be female. I know this about me. But if it's a socially constructed thing, then it can't be an innate internal thing. And yet you hear both of these arguments coming from the left and they're in contradiction with each other. Caitlin Schess And I was telling you that the feminist theory class that I took at Duke, there were quite a few people in that class that had not taken a lot of feminist theory before gender studies. They were encountering these ideas for the first time, somewhat myself included. And there were a bunch of them though, that were really involved in like leftist political activism online, where they had heard a lot of this stuff of like, to support my transgender Friends is to say, they know their gender more than anyone else. Like they can know this deep personal thing about themselves and it could contradict everything about the society, the sex of the soul. And that was so ingrained in them that then they started reading some gender theorists like Judith Butler, who's mentioned in this article, who very strongly take the social construction Position and say like, it's social construction all the way down. And they were so discomforted because they were like, how can it be true that all of our expectations about what it means to be a man and what it means to be a woman are entirely socially Constructed? And yet I'm trying to support this friend who is saying, no, actually, I know deeply in my soul that apart from my body, there is this other thing that is true of me gender wise. And they were struggling with it in class because they were being asked to in class believe these two pretty much just entirely contradictory things at the same time. Skye Jethani And what's fascinating is both of those arguments are coming from the academic and political left. Totally. This is not a right versus left thing. This is a left and left disagreement on this fundamental issue. ([Time 0:33:10](https://share.snipd.com/snip/cb9aaa93-285a-49e9-a1ee-77ed9d11d855)) - **From Pastor To Chief Impact Officer** - Tyler Johnson describes his shift from local pastoral ministry to Come Near to influence culture upstream. - He joined after conversations about presenting the 'authentic Jesus' through media and research. Transcript: Skye Jethani Back in 2022, when I first heard that a Christian group was going to be running a commercial about Jesus during the Super Bowl, I thought, uh-oh, this could get really bad. But thankfully, it wasn't. In fact, I thought the ad was remarkably well done. It was powerful, provocative, even prophetic. The ad was part of a larger campaign called He Gets Us, which is now overseen by a non-profit organization called Come Near. Since 2022, Come Near has continued to run He Gets Us ads during the Super Bowl. They've all been really well done, but they've also sparked controversy and pushback, especially from those on the political right. The Jesus depicted in a lot of those ads is a Jesus who welcomes refugees, loves his enemies, and finds greatness in humble service. That doesn't look a lot like the American Jesus of Christian nationalism. This year the He Gets Us campaign has pivoted with a different kind of ad. You may have seen it during the fourth quarter of the game on Sunday. It wasn't about Jesus' love or humility or radical inclusion. Instead, it focused on our culture's materialism and overstimulation, and the invitation of Jesus towards stillness and simplicity. Like the previous ads, this one was also really well done, but it represents a clear pivot from what the He Gets Us campaign has done in the past. To talk about the new ad and the new direction for the campaign, I spoke with Tyler Johnson, the chief impact officer for Come Near. Johnson became involved with He Gets Us after many years in pastoral ministry, and he explains not only the mission behind this year's Super Bowl ad, but also the wider goal for He Gets Us. And he responds to criticism they've gotten for past ads, and why those who say a Super Bowl ad is an extravagant waste of money are missing the point. Here's my conversation with Tyler Johnson. Tyler Johnson, welcome to The Holy Post. It's great to be here, Sky. Nice to talk to you again. I want to begin before we get into the ad and He Gets Us and kind of all that stuff. Tell me a little bit more about your story and background and how you got connected to the He Gets Us campaign and come near. Tyler Johnson Yeah, great. I'll just do this briefly, but I'll give you a full-fledged background. So I'm from Denver, Colorado, baseball family. My dad's a really iconic amateur baseball coach, coached 51 years, all-time winningest coach in Colorado. I played baseball at Arizona State, came to faith in Jesus just before that, ended up in local church ministry for the vast majority of my career. I led a multi-congregational church in the Phoenix area called Redemption Church and transitioned out of there in 23. I was invited to a conversation by some people around the authentic Jesus. There met Ken Caldwell, was quite intrigued at the time with, he gets us in some different Jesus things that were happening in media. And one thing led to another. We had some incredible conversations. I came in and started working with them in a contract role. And then in November of 25, no, November of 24, they offered me a role as the chief impact officer with Come Near. ([Time 0:52:51](https://share.snipd.com/snip/3de1c299-7206-4d0d-ae5a-a11d8c960106)) - **Ad Strategy: From Correction To Invitation** - He Gets Us ads shifted this year from explicit corrective portraits of Jesus to addressing cultural noise and inviting contemplation. - Tyler sees the new spot as a prompt: viewers feel seen and may then explore Jesus via journeys on hegetsus.com. Transcript: Skye Jethani People are going to see this after the Super Bowl. So hopefully they saw it during the game and they can watch it on YouTube or online and certainly go to the He Gets Us website and see it. I went back and watched the previous Super Bowl ads you guys released starting in 22. And this year feels different. It's a different approach. So I want to kind of unpack some of that. And there's different elements to this. So let me run through and you could recite this as easily as i could what the previous ads were in 2022 the ad focused on refugees and it gives the story of mary joseph and jesus fleeing from Israel to egypt as refugees but it's all done with the images of modern day refugees and asylum seekers 2023 the ad was about loving your enemies, and it shows all these images of people Fighting in our culture in different settings and all the divisiveness that's going on. And it ends with saying, Jesus loved the people we hate. 2024, maybe the most controversial one that was put out was the foot washing ad, showing what would typically be seen as people in opposite identity groups washing one another's feet. And the ad ended with Jesus didn't teach hate, he washed feet. And then last year, beautiful ad with the Johnny Cash vocals of him singing Your Own Personal Jesus and asked the question, what is greatness? And it has all these images of people serving one another, again, across different barriers of identity and politics and things. And at the end, it says, Jesus showed what greatness really is. All four of those ads had a number of commonalities. One is they were all explicitly telling us something about who Jesus is, right? He loves those who we hate. He served those that we wouldn't normally serve. He bridges barriers. He welcomes the immigrant refugee. This year's ad is still brilliantly done, but it doesn't really say something about Jesus. It's a depiction of the frenetic craziness of modern life and materialism. And it's all predicated on more. Is there more to life? It's a cacophony of noise and sound and color and light and all that. And then it ends with this stillness. But it doesn't actually say something specific about who Jesus is. It just kind of points more to how crazy our life is. And maybe there's a different way. Explain what was going on in your own team's thinking about this pivot this year to a different approach. Tyler Johnson Yeah. Thanks for the question. It's good analysis and true. So one of the things we really did in the last year is we've put a ton of time into knowing our neighbors. So a lot of the background conversations is this idea of if the authentic Jesus is the lens and lane in which we look through, we can't love our neighbors if we don't know our neighbors. So tremendous amounts of research has gone into this. And so quantitative and qualitatively listening and the common theme that came up through different cultures, different economic classes is that our neighbors are experiencing A tremendous amount of noise, both out there and in here. That's kind of the simple way that we heard consistently. And one thing that we're constantly trying to show in this campaign is that Jesus sees us, Jesus hears us, Jesus knows us, and then ultimately he loves us. That was the origin brief that then came back with he gets us. So Jesus sees us, Jesus hears us, Jesus loves us, Jesus knows us. So explicitly, there may not be a sense that this says something about Jesus, but implicitly what we're trying to say is Jesus himself is not distant. He's very aware that you're experiencing noise around you and inside you. And the outcome of that is that many people are seeking to just relieve the noise. So a lot of what we saw is these deep amounts of spiritual seeking. So people might be using sound bowls or going to yoga or a variety of different approaches. And it isn't so much that they're asking these existential questions as much as, how do I just get relief now? So at least implicitly, what we're trying to say is, what if Jesus has a different way? True. But we're also trying to say he sees this. He hears this. He knows the impact of what this is ultimately. So then the setup of the question is what if Jesus shows us a different way is what is different also is we're trying to have journeys this year. ([Time 0:57:59](https://share.snipd.com/snip/26dc754d-f96c-48c6-ae85-33ead3a69aba)) - **Show Up Where Conversations Happen** - Don't dismiss high-cost outreach; evaluate what happens if you don't show up. - Tyler argues presence in cultural moments can start conversations and move people toward Jesus. Transcript: Tyler Johnson Yeah. I think the first thing we would say is it's an awesome question. And we think if you're taking the authentic Jesus seriously and not asking that question, we'd probably say, look at Jesus again. So I would never want to say it's a bad question. I think in a conversation, I would love to say, what is it worth to raise the public conversation about Jesus, period? And if you can show up in an environment and get somebody to go, hmm, Jesus, what's that worth? And different people would answer that different ways. There's a far better way to use your money. Those are not new conversations, even to the Bible themselves, for those that know the Bible. But to me, all of these questions, when we are living in a society where tons of eyeballs and communal moments. The Super Bowl is not just about the game. For many people, the Super Bowl is more about the party than it is the game. And we've had numbers of stories of people going where our ads in the past stop people. And in the end, they're now sitting around the chip bowl, maybe having a different kind of drink, and they're talking about Jesus. We've had stories of reconciliation where people felt divided by faith, looking at each other going, do you believe that about Jesus? And it creating conversations. So we're showing up in moments that are not just consumeristic moments. They're communal moments. And this is the complication of living in a highly consumeristic culture is you can't get away from the culture. And so the questions of what it looks like to rightfully represent Jesus are questions Christians have asked throughout centuries of what does it mean to faithfully show up? And they've been hotly debated and practiced differently at different times. And so in the end, we actually embrace the conversation, like the conversation, but feel like the value of showing up in moments like this to help people take one step closer is better With people doing it than it would be with them not doing it. I'll tell one other quick story. You and I actually have a mutual friend. I believe you know Robert Gelinas at Colorado Community Church. Years ago, I had a question about a really complex situation of whether or not we as Christians should show up in an environment. He wisely said to me, Tyler, my question would be, what happens if you don't show up? So the kind of constant Jesus language of the preservative nature or being in and not of all of this language that you see is the power of showing up in a moment with Jesus, we believe has The potential to do some real good in the world. So that's a little bit of the background of how we think about showing up in environments even related to the cost of getting into those moments. ([Time 1:07:15](https://share.snipd.com/snip/4568565a-6f0d-4235-a061-f1ebda78b96a)) - **Ads Can Spur Seeking That Churches Must Match** - He Gets Us recognizes a gap: ads may drive seekers toward Jesus but churches may not embody that invitation. - Tyler says they're conversing with leaders to encourage new forms of Christian community. Transcript: Tyler Johnson We are having a lot of these conversations and feel a burden like you and Holy Post would be feeling. And so in the end, one, we want to recognize there really are amazing work happening in multiple places. There are incredible communities of Christians doing things. We also want to recognize that the experience you just articulated is not an isolated experience. There are tons of people feeling like it's hard to do this. I think in this past week, I heard John Mark Comer making a statement about how some people are transitioning to other Christian traditions primarily because it's slower and quieter. Yeah. Which I found a pretty interesting thought in response to that specific issue. We are having these conversations. We're in a growing number of conversations with Christian leaders, some in churches, some in different environments, some like yourself, saying, what does that mean? Some of the people that are viewed organizationally a bit more upstream have even told us, keep pressing because we need to go even more upstream. And one of the scenes we look at in the Gospels a lot is the woman at the well scene, which I know a lot of people do. But there's some really interesting parts of that. Like, why did Jesus not take the disciples originally to him? When they show up, seemingly my impression is they're probably hungry, which is why they ask him if he's hungry. He uses, you know, the wheat of the fields, basically, to point something. But then again, he draws their eyes to the fields to say, hey, guys, you're missing this. Which in my view, when I talk to business people, I'll use Blue Ocean Strategy and say, hey, that book, Blue Ocean Strategy, is essentially calls it the field that's widened to harvest. But it seems like that's the language we use of upstream. And any time, I think Jesus is, again, if you want to say going outside the camp from Hebrews 13, these moments where he's really trying to draw our attention to not the common path, feels Like it's both disruptive to the religious environments, but it necessitates people that are taking Jesus seriously to wrestle with questions like this. Like, is there a different way we need to show up for these people? And then those forms seem in history to be the things that can actually begin to reform the existing establishment of faith, religious, whatever they are. So this is where we want to just keep saying, let's just keep pressing these questions. Let's keep having these conversations. But hopefully, Sky, and honestly, we're having these conversations at a significant level, hopefully it does allow Christians to organize in some new ways and think about what does It mean to be the people of God in these times specifically and respond to these. ([Time 1:20:33](https://share.snipd.com/snip/65d137a4-4248-4f59-90fa-47886d798a56))