708 Mistaking Certainty for Maturity with Joshua Harris [01khrscrx0b5cpre7x2v150bm9]

708: Mistaking Certainty for Maturity with Joshua Harris 🔗 **Source:** [708: Mistaking Certainty for Maturity with Joshua Harris](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aflm8zDTaik&t=2865s) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [christianity, joshua-harris, purity-culture, fundamentalism, deconstruction, faith-journey] > author: Phil Visher > source: Holy Post Podcast > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aflm8zDTaik > date created: 2025-01-17 14:25 > > # 🏷️ Title: Mistaking Certainty for Maturity with Joshua Harris >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Interview Joshua Harris about journey from purity culture to deconstruction — upcoming feature #interview - [H2] Explore second half of interview on Holy Post Plus — extended content #premium - [H3] Examine Christian response to immigration in Springfield — community action #social-justice ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [Holy Post Plus](https://holypost.com) - [Full Interview with Joshua Harris](https://holypost.com) ## 📝 Summary - Holy Post episode featuring upcoming interview with Joshua Harris, author of "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" - Harris has since apologized for the book, left ministry and Christianity, and is now curious about Jesus again - Episode covers current events including Springfield, Ohio churches protecting Haitian immigrants - Discussion of how Trump administration embraces pagan values while progressive left wants Christian ethics without Christian beliefs - Analysis of how both sides co-opt Christianity for political ends rather than submitting to Christ's actual teachings ## 📖 Main Content This episode introduces an upcoming interview with Joshua Harris, who became the face of evangelical purity culture in the 1990s with his influential book "I Kissed Dating Goodbye." Harris has since undergone a dramatic spiritual journey - apologizing for his book's harmful effects, leaving pastoral ministry, divorcing, and publicly announcing he was no longer a Christian. The episode teases that he's now moving toward being "curious about Jesus" again. The hosts also discuss several current events through a Christian lens, including how churches in Springfield, Ohio organized to protect Haitian immigrants from deportation, and analysis of how both political sides are misappropriating Christianity - the right embracing pagan power while claiming Christian identity, and the left wanting Christian social outcomes without Christian theological foundations. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/Aflm8zDTaik?t=0) — [H1] Introduction to Joshua Harris Interview - Key idea: Harris went from purity culture champion to Christian deconstructor - Evidence: "30 years ago, Joshua Harris became the cheerleader for purity culture with his book I Kiss Dating Goodbye. Since then, he's apologized for the book, exited ministry, and his marriage, and announced he's no longer a Christian" #### ⏱️ [05:30](https://youtu.be/Aflm8zDTaik?t=330) — [H2] Springfield Churches Protect Immigrants - Key idea: Over 1,000 people gathered for worship service supporting Haitian immigrants - Evidence: "Roughly 20 Springfield congregations have collaborated to establish safe communication networks and to lay the groundwork for emergency food distribution and child care" #### ⏱️ [12:15](https://youtu.be/Aflm8zDTaik?t=735) — [H3] Judge Blocks TPS Cancellation - Key idea: Federal judge criticized administration's hostility toward non-white immigrants - Evidence: "Ray wrote that it is likely that Gnome pre-ordained her termination decision because of hostility to non-white immigrants" #### ⏱️ [18:45](https://youtu.be/Aflm8zDTaik?t=1125) — [H2] Trump Administration Embraces Pagan Values - Key idea: Steven Miller explicitly advocates might-makes-right philosophy - Evidence: "We live in a world in which you can talk all you want about international nicities and everything else, but we live in the real world, Jake, that is governed by strength, that is governed by force, that is governed by power" #### ⏱️ [25:20](https://youtu.be/Aflm8zDTaik?t=1520) — [H3] Christianity's Historical Impact on Morality - Key idea: Christian values became so embedded in Western thought we forget their origins - Evidence: "The moral instinct is so ubiquitous today that we barely recognize it as Judeo-Christian or even as religious" #### ⏱️ [32:10](https://youtu.be/Aflm8zDTaik?t=1930) — [H2] Progressive Left Wants Christian Ethics Without Faith - Key idea: Trevor Noah observes that declining religion on left limits imagination - Evidence: "Republicans have a limitless imagination. Democrats are constructing an ever-lowering ceiling of possibility... It's because of the decline of religion on the left" #### ⏱️ [38:45](https://youtu.be/Aflm8zDTaik?t=2325) — [H3] Faith Enables Transformative Vision - Key idea: Religious traditions teach hope that survives disappointment - Evidence: "Hope that survives disappointment... It's like MLK's beloved community, which wasn't utopian fantasy. It was a realistic, achievable goal grounded in black church theology" #### ⏱️ [45:30](https://youtu.be/Aflm8zDTaik?t=2730) — [H2] Both Sides Co-opt Christianity Improperly - Key idea: Right wants Christian identity with pagan tactics, left wants Christian outcomes without Christian beliefs - Evidence: "People are drawn to Jesus for all kinds of different reasons... Our job is to keep inviting them in deeper" #### ⏱️ [47:45](https://youtu.be/Aflm8zDTaik?t=2865) — [H3] The Problem of Religious Language Without Belief - Key idea: Christian ethics require Christian theological foundations to sustain - Evidence: "You can't drain the language of the actual story and belief and metaphysics and think that it will work as well" ## 📚 References - [Holy Post Plus Subscription](https://holypost.com) - [Rocket Money](https://rocketmoney.com/holypost) - [Poncho Outdoors](https://ponchooutdoors.com/holypost) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Joshua Harris transformed from purity culture champion to someone who left Christianity entirely, and is now becoming curious about Jesus again - Churches in Springfield, Ohio demonstrated practical Christian love by organizing to protect Haitian immigrants from deportation - The current political moment reveals both sides misusing Christianity - the right claiming Christian identity while embracing pagan power tactics, and the left wanting Christian social outcomes without accepting Christian theological foundations ## 📰 Newsletter This episode offers a fascinating preview of an upcoming interview with Joshua Harris, whose spiritual journey from evangelical celebrity to post-Christian and potentially back toward faith mirrors many people's complex relationship with Christianity today. The discussion of Springfield churches protecting immigrants shows Christianity at its best - practical love for vulnerable neighbors regardless of political cost. The analysis of how both political sides misappropriate Christian values is particularly insightful for anyone trying to navigate faith in a polarized culture. Whether you're questioning faith like Harris or trying to live it authentically, this episode offers wisdom about the difference between using Christianity for other ends versus submitting to Christ himself. Resources: [Holy Post Plus](https://holypost.com), [Springfield Church Response](https://springfieldchurches.org), [Immigration Resources](https://immigrationlegal.org) ## ✅ Action Items #### Community - Learn from Springfield churches' coordinated response to protect vulnerable immigrants - Develop interfaith networks for emergency response and community care - Create safe communication systems for at-risk community members #### WordPress - Document best practices for community organizing through digital platforms - Support immigrant-serving organizations with pro-bono website development - Create resources for churches using WordPress for social justice coordination #### FAIR - Technical independence: Ensure platforms can't be weaponized against vulnerable communities - Policies: Support transparent governance that protects marginalized voices - Funding: Prioritize grants for organizations serving at-risk populations ## 🧪 Hypotheses - People drawn to Christian ethics without Christian theology will find their values unsustainable under pressure - The Trump administration's explicit embrace of pagan values will create space for authentic Christian witness - Progressive movements that rediscover religious foundations will be more resilient than purely secular efforts - Joshua Harris's journey represents a broader pattern of post-evangelical spiritual seeking ### 📊 Methodology - Track correlation between religious commitment and sustained social justice activism - Survey progressive organizations about their relationship with religious traditions - Interview other prominent Christian deconstruction/reconstruction stories - Analyze political rhetoric for explicitly pagan versus Christian value frameworks ### ❓ Questions - How can churches better prepare for protecting vulnerable community members? - What would authentic Christian political engagement look like beyond left/right categories? - How do we invite people toward Christianity without co-opting their existing interests? ### 🔮 Future Research - Long-term outcomes of purity culture survivors like Harris - Effectiveness of interfaith responses to immigration enforcement - Sustainability of progressive movements with and without religious grounding ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Christians must choose between authentic discipleship and political utility - Policy: Immigration policies test whether Christian values influence governance - Security: Vulnerable communities need coordinated protection networks - Education: Understanding Christianity's foundational role in Western ethics - Funding: Supporting organizations that demonstrate practical Christian love ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: Grade 12 #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Episode preview graphics, social media clips - Improve: Infographic showing Harris's spiritual journey timeline #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full podcast episode with quality audio - Improve: Key quote compilation, discussion guide audio #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Rich discussion, theological terminology explained - Improve: Glossary of terms, comparative analysis charts #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Real-world examples like Springfield church response - Improve: Action steps for community organizing, practical guides #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Clear argument structure, cause-effect relationships - Improve: Decision tree for authentic Christian political engagement #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Panel discussion format, community examples - Improve: Discussion questions, book club guides for groups #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Individual reflection prompts implicit in content - Improve: Journaling questions about personal faith journey #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Immigration as human ecosystem issue - Improve: Connections to creation care, environmental stewardship ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Good heading structure, episode descriptions - Improve: Transcript with speaker identification, time markers #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard podcast player controls - Improve: Skip-to-content options, chapter navigation #### Contrast and readability - Present: Adequate contrast on podcast platforms - Improve: High-contrast mode for show notes #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Responsive design on most platforms - Improve: Ensure 200% zoom compatibility across all content #### Media and captions - Present: Audio content with show notes - Improve: Full episode transcripts, key quote captions #### Forms and interactions - Present: Standard subscription forms - Improve: Error handling for newsletter signup ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Discussion of Haitian immigrant experience - Improve: More diverse guest perspectives, international examples #### Inclusive language - Present: Respectful discussion of different faith positions - Improve: Avoid insider Christian terminology without explanation #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Clear episode structure, consistent format - Improve: Episode summaries, content warnings for sensitive topics #### Representation - Present: Varied viewpoints on faith and politics - Improve: More diverse voices, especially from affected communities #### Psychological safety - Present: Respectful treatment of Harris's difficult journey - Improve: Resources for listeners experiencing faith deconstruction ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Christian values require Christian foundations for sustainability - Inductive strength: Springfield churches demonstrate practical Christian love - Causal reasoning: Loss of religious grounding leads to political imagination limits - Analogical strength: Harris's journey mirrors broader evangelical patterns #### Fallacies - False dichotomy: Slight tendency to present only "authentic Christianity" vs "co-opted Christianity" - Ad hominem: Minimal - focuses on ideas rather than personal attacks #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Thoughtful, analytical, compassionate toward those questioning faith ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No significant denial patterns observed - Attack: No attacks on accusers present - Reverse victim/offender: Not applicable to this content - Emotional cues and rhetoric: Empathetic toward spiritual struggle, critical of political co-optation ## 🎯 Conclusion This episode masterfully demonstrates how to engage complex spiritual and political questions with both intellectual rigor and pastoral compassion. The upcoming Harris interview promises to illuminate the difficult but potentially redemptive process of moving from certainty through deconstruction toward authentic faith. Meanwhile, the Springfield churches model what practical Christian love looks like when communities are under threat - organized, sacrificial, and effective action rooted in gospel values rather than political calculation. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad ### [H1] Churches organize coordinated immigrant protection > [!quote] [708: Mistaking Certainty for Maturity with Joshua Harris](https://youtu.be/Aflm8zDTaik) by Phil Visher via Holy Post Podcast. Published 2025. Accessed 2025-01-17. > "Roughly 20 Springfield congregations have collaborated to establish safe communication networks and to lay the groundwork for emergency food distribution and child care." Demonstrates practical Christian response to vulnerable community members under government threat. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/Aflm8zDTaik?t=330#H1) #xref #community-organizing ID:rw_001 ### [H2] Progressive left wants Christian ethics without Christian foundations > [!quote] [708: Mistaking Certainty for Maturity with Joshua Harris](https://youtu.be/Aflm8zDTaik) > "It's because of the decline of religion on the left... Republicans have a limitless imagination. Democrats are constructing an ever-lowering ceiling of possibility." Trevor Noah identifies religious decline as limiting progressive political imagination. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/Aflm8zDTaik?t=1930#H2) #xref #political-theology ID:rw_002 --- ### 🔖 Atomic Split Pad (Zettel Candidates) #### [Z1] Christian values require Christian theological foundations - Without underlying metaphysics, ethical systems become unsustainable under pressure - Pointer to 47:45 discussion of religious language vs belief - Links: [[Christian-Ethics]] [[Political-Theology]] #### [Z2] Authentic Christianity cannot be co-opted for other ends - Both political sides attempt to use Christianity for non-Christian goals - Pointer to 45:30 analysis of left/right appropriation - Links: [[Discipleship]] [[Political-Engagement]] --- ### ✏️ Fleeting Queue - [F1] Listen to full Joshua Harris interview on Holy Post Plus — spiritual journey analysis #fleeting #interview - [F2] Research Springfield church organizing methods — community protection models #fleeting #activism - [F3] Explore Trevor Noah's religious commentary — secular recognition of faith value #fleeting #culture --- ## Full Transcript [00:00] Welcome to the Holy Post. 30 years ago, [00:02] Joshua Harris became the cheerleader for [00:05] purity culture with his book I Kiss [00:07] Dating Goodbye. Since then, he's [00:09] apologized for the book, exited [00:11] ministry, and his marriage, and [00:13] announced he's no longer a Christian. [00:15] Today, he talks to me about his journey [00:17] from fundamentalism to [00:18] deconstructionism, [00:20] and his move back toward being curious [00:22] about Jesus. Also this week, how the [00:25] Trump administration is making paganism [00:27] great again. Why secular progressives [00:29] are rediscovering the benefits of [00:30] religion. And how Christians in [00:32] Springfield, Ohio have organized to [00:34] protect Haitian immigrants from [00:36] deportation. Plus, cannibal jellyfish [00:39] are taking over Venice. And Phil has [00:41] seen the rap light. A quick note before [00:43] we jump in. My conversation with Joshua [00:45] Harris this week was close to an hour [00:47] long. That's way more than we could fit [00:50] into just this episode. So, the first 30 [00:52] minutes are here, but we've posted the [00:54] other half of the interview on Holy Post [00:56] Plus. If you're not yet a Holy Post Plus [00:58] subscriber, you can learn how to sign up [01:00] by going to holyost.com. [01:02] Of course, you'll get access to my full [01:04] interview with Joshua Harris along with [01:06] everything else we're creating. Shows [01:08] like Getting Schooled by Caitlyn Chess, [01:10] 66 verses that explain the Bible with [01:12] Esau Macaulay, full episodes of the Sky [01:15] Pod every Friday, bonus interviews, the [01:17] Holy Post book club, behindthe-scenes [01:19] content, games, resources, and [01:21] merchandise. The very best of what we [01:23] produce here at Holy Post Media is all [01:25] there for you when you sign up for Holy [01:27] Post Plus. And by becoming a subscriber, [01:30] you'll be helping us be able to make [01:31] even more faithful pro- neighborh. [01:34] So go to holyost.com today to sign up. [01:37] Here is episode 708. [01:40] Hey there. Welcome to the Holy Post [01:42] podcast. I'm Phil Viser. I'm here with [01:44] Caitlyn Schess. Hi Caitlyn. [01:46] >> Hi Phil. [01:47] >> And Sky Jatani. Hello. Hi Sky. So Sky [01:50] and I are discussing whether we should [01:52] both color our beards. [01:53] >> Oh my gosh. [01:54] >> Just dye them jet black. Would we look [01:57] more macho? [01:58] >> Maybe I should dye it green for St. [02:00] Patrick's Day. [02:00] >> Oh yeah, you could be like the Chicago [02:02] River. The Chicago River [02:04] >> today [02:04] >> flowing pink for Valentine's Day. [02:06] >> No, Valentine's Day is when we're [02:09] recording. I just learned about [02:10] Valentine's Day cuz I missed Parks and [02:12] Wreck and I guess that's a thing. And [02:14] now I'm [02:15] >> I wished Phil a happy Valentine's Day [02:16] and he just got grumpy with me. [02:18] >> I know. I just got confused. I was not [02:20] grumpy. Confusing. [02:21] >> Why are you telling people that I get [02:23] grumpy with you? Like just on a dime. [02:26] >> No, you don't. You don't. [02:27] >> Just I just looked at him sideways and [02:29] then he got grumpy with me. How long has [02:31] Valentine's Day been a thing? [02:33] >> Since Parks and Rex. So like I mean [02:34] probably 10 years, 15 years [02:36] >> cuz I just learned about I learned about [02:38] it this year. I think [02:39] >> I learned about it today. [02:41] >> I knew about it before today. [02:42] >> So it's Yeah. 10 plus years cuz Parks [02:45] and Wreck ended in 2015. [02:46] >> Okay. All right. Valentine's Day. [02:48] Valentine's Day. [02:49] >> What would be the male equivalent? [02:50] >> You don't get that. [02:52] >> Uh, bro. It's the day before. What is [02:56] it? [02:57] >> It's the day. Well, could be. It's the [02:58] day after Valentine's when we get [03:00] together to lament how poorly we did it. [03:03] >> Ah. Oh, [03:04] >> yeah. What did you mess up? I forgot the [03:06] card. I I thought I had it, but then it [03:09] was gone. Or I you know, like my first [03:12] my first Valentine's Day was a disaster [03:14] of my married life. [03:16] >> Oh. because it was less than 2 weeks [03:18] after our wedding. [03:19] >> Oh, that's tough. [03:20] >> And it didn't occur to me that we needed [03:23] to [03:23] >> also do Valentine's Day. [03:24] >> Also do Valentine. [03:25] >> Yeah, that's fair. [03:26] >> Our wedding is 2 weeks after Valentine's [03:28] Day, our anniversary. So interesting. [03:31] Yes. So I learned I learned on that [03:34] blessed occasion, just two weeks after [03:36] our wedding, how important special [03:39] occasions are to my wife. A lesson I [03:42] never forgot. Even though I forgot a lot [03:44] more special occasions, I [03:46] >> did you learn the lesson? I was not I [03:48] don't think that's how lessons work. [03:49] >> I was no longer surprised at her [03:50] reaction. [03:52] I said, "Oh, yes. There you go." And now [03:55] it's time for the theme song. [03:58] >> What's the news that you like the most? [04:01] Who's your favorite podcast host? If [04:05] it's breakfast, get your toast. It's [04:07] Sky, Caitlyn, and the Holy Post. Sky, [04:11] Phil, Caitlyn, and the Holy Post [04:14] >> and sometimes other people. [04:18] >> The Holy Post is sponsored by Rocket [04:20] Money. I was in a coffee shop talking to [04:23] a friend and the topic of finances came [04:25] up. I'm using Rocket Money to track my [04:27] finances, they said. And I said, "I use [04:29] Rocket Money, too." And they said, "I [04:31] know. I use it because I heard about it [04:32] on your podcast." We had a little Rocket [04:34] Money fan club right there over our [04:36] lattes. The expense of which of course [04:38] was duly noted by our Rocket Money [04:40] accounts. I have to know where my money [04:41] is going and Rocket Money has made that [04:43] easy. 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That's p o nc h [06:22] ooutdoors.com/holyost [06:26] for $10 off and free shipping. You'll [06:29] love their shirts. I promise. And thanks [06:31] to Poncho for sponsoring this episode. I [06:34] don't know if you noticed uh but you'll [06:36] probably notice going forward that our [06:38] stories are running very tight, very [06:40] like a like a like rail cars on the [06:43] line. They just go right down the line. [06:45] And it's because our producer, Mike, hi [06:48] Mike. Hi, Phil. Um, put in a little [06:51] light and it's the light is a UFO [06:55] beaming up a cat. Why? I have no idea. [06:58] >> It's cute. [06:58] >> When he feels like we're running along [07:00] now, he turns on the little UFO cat [07:03] light and then I say, "Uhoh, I'm in [07:05] trouble with Mike. I better wrap this [07:07] up. [07:08] >> Someone needs to bring some order here." [07:10] >> It's the universal symbol for wrap it [07:11] up. [07:12] >> Yeah. Wrap it up. [07:12] >> Wrap it up. [07:13] >> Or suck it up cuz that's where the cat's [07:16] going, right? [07:17] >> Yeah. Tractor beams. Do tractor beams [07:19] they tra Is that a sucking thing or is [07:22] it attracting or what? What do tractor [07:24] beams do? [07:25] >> I think so. [07:25] >> And how do they work? What's the [07:26] science? [07:27] >> What? [07:28] >> I think they're more like magnets. [07:30] >> Magnets. Yeah. [07:32] >> And speaking of [07:33] >> Do I just eliminated just Oh. Oh. Uh, [07:37] Caitlyn doesn't even know what a tractor [07:38] beam is. [07:39] >> Okay. I this whole time thought [07:41] >> Uhoh. [07:43] >> I thought a tractor beam was the beam of [07:45] light from a tractor. Oh. [07:48] So I was like, "What are you talking [07:49] about? They just are light." [07:51] >> You know what's so sad? [07:52] >> So cute. [07:53] >> She's the most educated person in this [07:55] room. [07:57] >> It's just this. But wait, nowadays we go [08:00] deep, but not wide. [08:01] >> This is [08:02] >> Yeah, [08:02] >> exactly what Mark Twain said. [08:05] >> Oh, stop. [08:06] >> You know what I'm about to quote. An [08:07] expert is somebody who knows more and [08:09] more about less and less. [08:11] >> Yes, that's true. And it turns out I [08:13] don't know anything about [08:16] >> tractor. See, I think I'm the opposite [08:18] of an expert because as I'm getting [08:19] older, I'm just knowing less and less [08:22] about more and more. [08:24] >> You know, I'm going even shallower in [08:26] more areas. [08:27] >> You're a perzy. [08:29] >> The opposite. [08:30] >> Expert backwards. Is that what that was? [08:32] I think so. That was brilliant. Okay. Uh [08:34] Mike. [08:36] >> Um yeah. [08:37] >> Yeah. He's turning on the cat light [08:38] again. We're going to move on. [08:40] >> Um animal news. We haven't done animal [08:42] news in a while because it's been all [08:43] Trump all the time and we're all sick. [08:45] We're all sick to death of it. We're [08:47] sick to death of it. So, but there's [08:49] other terrible things happening in the [08:50] world besides what's happening in [08:52] America. Cannibal jellyfish are taking [08:53] over Venice's lagoons. [08:56] >> Did you hear about this? [08:56] >> In Venice, Italy. [08:57] >> Yeah, Venice is being um it's probably [09:00] going to be destroyed by cannibal [09:03] jellyfish. Probably going to be [09:04] destroyed [09:05] >> if it's not flooded first. Well, they [09:08] just destroy because when it's flooded, [09:10] it's like shark NATO. You have just the [09:12] jellyfish flying everywhere in your [09:14] bedrooms, in your houses. Hordes of [09:16] cannibalistic jellyfish are spreading [09:18] through Venice's famed lagoon and [09:20] wreaking havoc on local fisheries, [09:22] usually found in the Western Atlantic. [09:24] Western Atlantic is not close to Venice. [09:27] Uh, the warty comb jellyfish. And I [09:30] don't know if warty is part of the name [09:32] or just an adjective. It's being used to [09:34] insult the comb jellyfish. The warty [09:36] comb jelly jellyfish, also known as the [09:38] sea walnut. [09:39] >> Wow. [09:39] >> Isn't a walnut kind of the opposite of a [09:41] jellyfish? That [09:42] >> was my nickname in high school. Get over [09:44] here. Yes. Sea walnut, is now thriving [09:46] in the Adriatic Sea. It's not supposed [09:48] to be there. [09:49] >> It's not supposed to be there. [09:51] >> It hitch a ride on a ship or something. [09:52] >> It hitched a ride on a ship or [09:54] something. Now, it's not a true [09:55] jellyfish, but it's a comb jellyfish, [09:57] which is in a different film. Did you [10:00] Why are you uh You look like you're [10:01] shocked. What did you just learn? [10:02] >> Nothing. [10:03] >> Something that you don't want me to [10:04] mention. [10:04] >> Yep. Yep. I figured scientists believe [10:07] the species came to the Adriatic [10:08] accidentally in the ballasted waters of [10:10] cargo ships, which is how we spread [10:12] zebra muscles to the Great Lakes, which [10:14] are messing up the Great Lakes, among [10:17] other things. [10:18] >> A sometimes cannibal, it will eat it. [10:21] Has that ever been said about you? [10:23] >> Sometimes. Sometimes cannibal only when [10:25] necessary. [10:26] >> It's not like Not like all the time. [10:27] >> Not for fun. [10:28] >> Not like all the time, but just special [10:29] occasions like uh Valentine's Day. A [10:32] sometimes cannibal. It will eat its own [10:34] young when food is scarce. Now, I have a [10:36] question about that. [10:38] Jellyfish don't have brains. Does it [10:41] even know it's eating its own young? [10:42] Does it know what it's eating? [10:44] >> Can you be a cannibal [10:46] >> without a brain? Aren't you then a [10:48] zombie? [10:48] >> I think you can be an accidental [10:49] cannibal. [10:50] >> Accident. It doesn't say that. It says [10:52] sometimes cannibal, not accidental [10:53] cannibal. [10:54] >> Okay, [10:54] >> I'm curious. Scientists, [10:56] >> this is dark. [10:56] >> I know we have a lot of scientists that [10:58] listen to the show regularly. right in. [11:01] Tell us if a jellyfish that eats its [11:05] young knows that it's doing it. That's [11:08] my question. This bizarre creature has a [11:10] temporary anus that appears only when it [11:13] needs to expel waste, then vanishes [11:15] again. We've talked about this. [11:16] >> I love the fact that this creature has [11:18] multiple things that are just temporary. [11:21] >> Like cannibalism. [11:22] >> Cannibalism. Anus. [11:24] >> Yeah. Uhhuh. And being in Venice. Yeah. [11:27] where it's not supposed to be, but I [11:31] don't think they're going to be able to [11:32] get rid of. Now, we talked we did a [11:33] story. I don't know if it was about this [11:35] jellyfish, but it was about something. [11:36] But they they referred to it as a [11:37] transient anus. [11:39] >> So, we had a whole episode about the [11:41] transient anus, which which many people [11:43] decided would be a fantastic name for a [11:45] rock band [11:46] >> or or a uh itinerate preacher. [11:49] >> Oh my god. [11:51] >> Who isn't very good. [11:53] >> Oh. Um, it is also one of the world's [11:56] top invasive species and is causing [11:59] chaos. Chaos, I tell you, for the [12:01] Italian city's fragile lagoon ecosystem. [12:04] So, we're not It's not funny anymore. [12:05] We're not This isn't funny. We're not [12:07] laughing. [12:08] >> I'm not laughing. [12:09] >> Causing chaos for Venice's fragile [12:12] lagoon ecosystem. [12:13] >> Have they made it into a delicacy yet? [12:15] Have they cooked this thing up? [12:16] >> Oh, interesting. [12:17] >> Oh, yeah. That's I don't know. Probably [12:19] not. Do Is anyone eat jellyfish? Someone [12:22] has to eat. [12:22] >> I don't think they're good eating. [12:24] jellyfish. [12:24] >> These don't sting. They're comb [12:26] jellyfish, not jelly. [12:27] >> Dehydrated and pickled jellyfish is [12:29] considered a delicacy in some countries. [12:31] >> Okay, there you go. Well, we'll get to [12:33] work. [12:33] >> So, they you should consider that V. [12:35] >> Do we have a department, Mike? Do we [12:36] have a department of food at Holy Post [12:40] that could work on like recipes? [12:42] >> We're attached to a restaurant. [12:43] >> I will get right on that. There's a [12:45] kitchen right over there. There's a [12:46] kitchen right over there. The species [12:47] devours plankton, fish eggs, and fish [12:50] larvae, stripping the lagoon of the [12:52] foundations of its food web. That's bad. [12:54] That's bad. The gelatinous creatures are [12:57] clogging up fishing nets. At the same [12:59] time, fish stocks are crashing because [13:01] fish stocks are down. [13:06] Short fish stocks are crashing because [13:08] the comb jellies are demolishing most of [13:10] their fish eggs and larvae. Well, that's [13:12] terrible. If it isn't one thing, it's [13:15] another. If it isn't, your country is [13:19] moving in a slightly authoritarian [13:21] direction. It's your lagoons are being [13:24] overrun with uh sea walnuts. Sea [13:28] walnuts. [13:30] They they don't look like [13:31] >> That's what I said. That's the opposite [13:32] of a jellyfish. [13:33] >> Yeah, they're like clear. [13:34] >> Yeah, that's very strange. [13:35] >> I don't know why they would call them. [13:36] >> Maybe when they dry them [13:39] >> and pickle them, they look more like [13:40] walnuts. I don't Yeah, maybe when they [13:42] dry them and pickle them, they look more [13:46] Yeah, that's a good We'll look into [13:48] that. Oh, look. The the cat is telling [13:51] me it's [13:53] >> kind of looks like a jellyfish. [13:54] >> Phil, it kind of defeats the purpose of [13:55] a rap light when you communicate to the [13:58] audience. [13:59] >> Guess what? It's time to move. [14:02] >> Goodness. [14:02] >> You should just put a little shocker [14:04] into a seat. No, it should be there [14:05] should be an audible sound like a and [14:08] then we know that people can hear so [14:10] they know when we've run out of time. [14:12] >> What about the pres like the [14:13] presidential debates where you get the [14:14] green, yellow, red light? [14:15] >> That'd be good. [14:16] >> Or that'd be that'd be fantastic. Um I [14:19] had another story that I was going to [14:21] talk about. Oh, here it is. I forgot to [14:22] open it up. Now it's open. [14:24] >> Let's go to Springfield, Illinois. [14:26] Sorry, Springfield, Ohio. [14:29] >> Not Springfield, Illinois. Which one are [14:30] the Simpsons in? Uh yeah, that was a [14:33] contest once to pick which Springfield [14:35] because there's so many Springfields. [14:36] And what did they decide on? Was it [14:38] Springfield, Massachusetts or I forget [14:41] more than a thousand people descended [14:43] Monday on a special church service in [14:45] Springfield, Ohio to sing and pray and [14:48] wave signs on the day before deportation [14:50] protections were set to expire for more [14:52] than 300,000 Haitian immigrants across [14:54] the United States. If you don't remember [14:57] Springfield, Ohio, it was the place with [14:59] the huge recent influx of Haitian [15:02] immigrants and the rumor that they were [15:04] stealing and eating pets that [15:06] >> which came from the presidential debate [15:08] in 2024. [15:09] >> Well, it was it was magnified. [15:11] >> Yes, that's where it kind of reached [15:13] national attention. This central Ohio [15:16] took an improbable leading role in [15:17] America's immigration debate in 2024 [15:19] after then presidential candidate Donald [15:21] Trump and his running mate JD Vance [15:23] repeated false claims that Haitian [15:24] immigrants in Springfield were stealing [15:26] and eating pets. The ensuing media [15:28] frenzy and traumas like dozens of bomb [15:30] threats tore the community apart. Before [15:33] the mail, the city had attracted an [15:35] estimated 15,000 Haitian immigrants. [15:38] Most of them had temporary protected [15:40] status. the legal definition definition [15:43] designation granted by the US [15:45] government. [15:46] The Trump administration ended or [15:48] attempted to end TPS for more than a [15:50] million immigrants from different [15:51] countries last year. And the speculation [15:54] is that ending TPS for so many people [15:57] was a way to make more illegal [15:59] immigrants that you knew where they [16:02] were, [16:02] >> right? [16:03] >> So you could hit deportation quotas. So, [16:06] just to make sure we clearly communicate [16:08] what's happened here, these are people [16:10] the United States allowed in knowingly. [16:13] >> They did not sneak into this country. [16:15] They came in knowingly to our [16:16] government's knowledge. They had [16:18] credible [16:20] credible reasons to seek asylum. I don't [16:22] know why I got some in my throat. [16:23] >> Yeah. They Yeah. And they weren't they [16:25] weren't actually they're not asylum [16:26] seekers, [16:27] >> right? [16:28] >> They are from countries where it is [16:30] unsafe to return, [16:31] >> right? the state of the country makes it [16:34] and that is very much the case with [16:35] Haiti over the last few years. It is not [16:37] a safe place to be. [16:39] >> Right? So according to US law and with [16:40] the US government's knowledge, they come [16:42] to the country and they get protected [16:44] status. All of this completely legal [16:47] >> so that they can get jobs and they can [16:48] get homes and they can work here and set [16:51] their lives up here. And now the Trump [16:53] administration goes, "Just kidding and [16:56] we want to deport you." [16:57] >> But this is a good news story. um sky. [17:00] This is a story that I would describe as [17:02] Christians behaving Christianly. [17:04] Churches and other faith groups in [17:06] Springfield have spent months preparing [17:07] for the day immigration and customs [17:09] enforcement agents might amass in their [17:11] city. They've hosted trainings on [17:13] constitutional rights and have helped [17:14] hundreds of immigrant residents get [17:16] passports and birth certificates. [17:18] They've passed out orange whistles like [17:20] those uh that became the soundtrack of [17:22] Minnesota's anti-ICE protests. Roughly [17:24] 20 Springfield congregations have [17:26] collaborated to establish safe [17:28] communication networks and to lay the [17:29] groundwork for emergency food [17:31] distribution and child care. And just [17:34] recently on a Monday, all those [17:36] preparations culminated in a worship [17:37] service with more than a thousand people [17:39] on the day their protected status was [17:42] supposed to expire. But a judge came [17:46] through last minute in an unvarnished [17:48] 83page opinion that opened with a quote [17:51] from George Washington. Judge Ray [17:53] criticized the government for failing to [17:55] demonstrate that Haitian TPS holders [17:57] pose any public harm. Uh she questioned [18:00] how Christy Gnome could conclude that [18:02] Haiti is safe for return, a legal [18:04] condition for the cancellation of TPS [18:06] when other federal agencies warn that [18:08] Haiti is unsafe for travel for any [18:10] reason. [18:11] >> It's kind of talking out both sides of [18:13] your mouth, [18:13] >> unless you're Haitian and then we just [18:16] don't care. [18:17] >> It's not that it's safe for you, it's [18:19] just that we just don't care. Ray wrote [18:21] that it is likely that Gnome [18:22] pre-ordained her termination decision [18:24] because of hostility to non-white [18:26] immigrants. Oh, that's in the judge's [18:29] ruling. We have declared the head of [18:31] Homeland Security hostile to non-white [18:35] immigrants. [18:37] So, um, ICE raids are suspended and [18:42] temporary protection status is sustained [18:44] for the time being and a bunch of [18:47] pastors were part of putting together [18:49] the effort uh to help them. So, this [18:51] good news. [18:51] >> It is good news. Is there any response [18:53] from the administration? Are they [18:55] appealing this? Yeah. [18:56] >> Appeal. We want to we want to get rid of [18:59] they the judge. It was interesting in [19:01] the article. the judge in the hearing [19:04] um got the the administration's [19:08] represent lawyers to acknowledge that [19:12] they believed Christy Gnome could cancel [19:14] this protected status just for the [19:16] reason that she didn't like vanilla ice [19:18] cream for example like any reason and [19:20] they acknowledge yes if she she could [19:22] just say I don't like vanilla ice cream [19:24] and you no longer have protected status [19:26] that was the government's position [19:28] >> it's kind of the unitary executive [19:30] argument that the executive [19:32] It's kind of the I can do whatever the [19:34] heck I want argument and what are you [19:36] going to do about it argument, [19:38] >> right? So if the Secretary of Homeland [19:40] Security does this with the consent of [19:42] the president, no one can stop her. [19:44] That's their argument. [19:45] >> Yeah. [19:46] >> Uh yeah, but there are actually rules [19:48] about this. There's actually you can't [19:51] cancel temporary protected status if the [19:53] conditions on the ground in the country [19:55] in question have not changed. [19:58] Unless you want to and you say try to [20:01] stop me. [20:02] >> Does the article speculate as this [20:03] climbs the to an appellet court [20:06] >> are their favor judges more favorable to [20:08] DHS or Trump? [20:10] >> Very unlikely. Very unlikely. I was [20:12] listening to a a uh advisory opinions [20:14] podcast and they were with David French [20:17] and Sarah Isker and they were talking [20:20] about uh the damage being done to the [20:23] justice department because judges are no [20:27] longer granting them the assumption what [20:30] was it the the the presumption of [20:32] normaly [20:33] >> I think the the assumption that um [20:36] because it's the government [20:39] presenting a case we assume assume [20:41] they're telling the truth [20:43] >> and we assume they're following the law [20:46] and that historically the justice [20:49] department has had that assumption that [20:52] if they were bringing case that they [20:54] were assumed to be following the law [20:56] >> or at least competent [20:57] >> and not lying [20:59] and more and more judges are saying [21:02] actually that's no longer the case. We [21:04] can no longer assume a representative of [21:06] this administration is coming before the [21:09] court not lying. And the question was [21:13] how long even after Trump, how long does [21:16] it take to restore confidence or have we [21:20] now said more or less that it's up to [21:22] whatever president whoever gets elected? [21:24] Because if you know if if 70% of the [21:27] country or 60% of the country supports a [21:30] president um who doesn't respect normal [21:34] procedures or telling the truth in [21:36] court, it says more about the country [21:39] than it does just about [21:41] >> I don't know about that. [21:42] >> So here I I listened to a a podcast [21:45] recently with Chuck Todd and Rahm [21:48] Emanuel. [21:48] >> Oh [21:49] >> Chuck Todd used to be with NBC News. [21:50] Rahm Emanuel used to be the mayor of [21:52] Chicago. [21:52] >> Chuck and Todd. [21:53] >> Chuck and Todd. the Chuck and Todd show, [21:54] >> something like that. Anyway, they were [21:56] both talking about the upcoming midterm [21:57] elections and expressing [22:01] a confidence that the American people [22:03] will do what's right and they will be [22:04] the final check on these things and [22:05] they're going to and and they kept [22:07] repeating this and it sounded kind of [22:08] very campaigny like we trust the people [22:10] and the people know what's best. I mean, [22:12] and to a degree I'm like, yeah, except [22:16] >> you're assuming that those people have [22:17] been properly informed of what's [22:19] actually going on. So, I I would say I [22:21] don't think most Americans are fine with [22:22] the Justice Department lying and not [22:24] doing so. But I don't think a lot of [22:26] Americans know that's what's happening [22:27] because it's not being [22:28] >> or would believe it [22:28] >> or would believe it. And and I'll give [22:30] you one example. This this week, um [22:33] >> Pam Bondi, head of the Justice [22:34] Department, testified before Congress [22:36] about the Epstein stuff and it was a [22:38] circus. Oh my gosh, what it was. It was [22:41] grotesque on so many levels. And I was [22:43] watching clips of what had unfolded that [22:45] day. And for my own amusement, I clicked [22:48] over to Fox Newsw.com and scrolled [22:51] through the entire Fox News website and [22:53] there was not a single thing about Pam [22:55] Bondi and the hearings before Congress. [22:58] >> So if you're marinating at Fox News, [23:00] you've had no idea this has happened. [23:02] >> Right. [23:02] >> Yeah. [23:03] >> So I don't think most Americans are [23:04] happy about the Trump administration [23:06] lying or the Justice Department. I don't [23:08] think a lot of them know this is going [23:09] on because the media is not telling [23:10] them. [23:11] >> Two stories. I got two stories, good [23:14] news, good news stories about and this [23:17] is they're only good news if I have to [23:20] spin them. Okay, I'm spinning them [23:21] because you could say, "Oh, that's bad [23:23] news that that's happening." But I think [23:24] No, no, it's good news. [23:26] >> Silver lining, huh? [23:27] >> Because of who's noticing that it's [23:29] happening. I'm seeing more um people I [23:32] would describe as progressive secular [23:36] saying, "Hey, we're really moving away [23:39] from our Christian roots and this is [23:41] probably not a good thing." So, that's [23:44] interesting because we have people who [23:46] are saying, "We're reclaiming [23:48] Christianity. We're putting Christianity [23:50] back in its rightful place." We have [23:52] more and more people saying, "Uh, I [23:54] don't think that's Christianity, at [23:56] least historically, as we've practiced [23:58] it." And I think more and more we're [24:00] missing it now that it's leaving. We we [24:04] want it back. So this is a piece by uh [24:06] Leighton Woodhouse written in New York [24:08] Times [24:10] with the fun title Donald Trump pagan [24:13] king and he talks about there's been a [24:15] lot of talk about Mark Carney, the prime [24:16] minister of Canada and the speech he [24:18] gave at DVOS um where he described the [24:22] world the president [24:23] >> Davos. [24:24] >> Oh yeah, Davos. [24:25] >> Davos is the family. Devos is the [24:27] families in Grand Rapids. Davos [24:30] >> Davos, [24:30] >> not DVOS, [24:31] >> right? [24:32] >> Life is so complicated. [24:36] >> Valentine's Day. I learn to remember [24:38] that now. Prime Minister Mark Carney of [24:41] Canada recently described the world that [24:42] President Trump is dragging us into with [24:44] this apherism. The strong do what they [24:46] can and the weak suffer what they must. [24:49] The quote comes from a guy whose name I [24:51] will not even try to [24:53] >> Thusidities. [24:54] >> Thusidities. That's good. Thusidity. [24:56] >> Oh, wait. It wasn't you saying it. It [24:57] was [24:58] >> No, no, that was me. That was me. Yeah. [25:02] Uh, from Thusidity's fictionalized [25:05] account of a negotiation between Athens [25:07] and the rulers of the island of Melos, [25:10] Milos, Milos in the Pelpeneisian War. [25:14] I've often [25:16] war. [25:17] >> I have no idea what it was, [25:20] >> but it involved Pelpeneisia. [25:22] >> Yeah. and there was some fighting. The [25:25] dialogue is famous for its stark [25:27] portrayal of the dictates of political [25:29] realism. The world is not guided by [25:30] ideals and values. It demonstrates it is [25:33] brokered only by power. Uh the Trump [25:36] administration has adopted this [25:37] philosophy as its own. Steven Miller [25:40] said recently in an interview with Jake [25:42] Tapper, "We live in a world in which [25:44] have to say it more like he says it. We [25:45] live in a world in which you can talk [25:47] all you want about international [25:48] nicities and everything else, but we [25:50] live in a world in the real world, Jake, [25:52] that is governed by strength, that is [25:54] governed by force, that is governed by [25:56] power. The more he talks, the louder he [25:58] gets. I don't know if you ever noticed [25:59] that. [25:59] >> I think his his forehead gets bigger, [26:01] too. [26:01] >> Yeah. It just it grows until eventually [26:03] it'll pop and then the real power inside [26:05] him will come out and devour us all. [26:08] >> And you can quote me on that. But the [26:10] nicities that Mr. Miller disparages [26:13] aren't just some naive fantasy. They are [26:15] the values of Christianity. The faith [26:18] the Christian ad the faith the Trump [26:20] administration purports to defend and [26:22] uphold. Um after defeating Milos Melos [26:26] Milos in a siege Athens slaughtered the [26:29] island's men and enslaved its women and [26:31] children. Such was the nature of the [26:33] ancient world a world that was to borrow [26:34] Mr. Miller's words devoid of nicities [26:37] and governed by power. And then he [26:39] references, as a lot of people have done [26:40] lately, uh recently Tom Holland in his [26:43] book Dominion, describing how um ancient [26:46] Greeks and pre-Christian Romans [26:48] generally believe that their gods [26:49] favored the strong and were indifferent [26:51] to the weak, but that Christianity [26:53] upended these assumptions. He says, "The [26:55] moral instinct is so ubiquitous today [26:57] that we barely recognize it as [26:59] Judeo-Christian or even as religious." [27:02] So, Christian morality underpins what we [27:06] generally just consider morality [27:07] >> and human rights [27:08] >> and human rights and all of that. [27:11] >> And he says, which is which is always [27:13] important to say, that's not to pretend [27:14] that these lofty principles have [27:15] effectively restrained great powers. [27:17] Christian morality didn't prevent [27:19] medieval kings and the Catholic Church [27:20] from massacring civilians, persecuting [27:22] Jews, or committing genocides in the New [27:24] World. Unlike the pagans of antiquity, [27:26] however, those rulers had to answer to [27:28] charges of hypocrisy, which corroded [27:30] their credibility in a way that the [27:32] Athenians never had to contend with. [27:35] Propo purportedly Christian great powers [27:37] could do what they wanted to just as uh [27:40] the Athenians declared, but unlike the [27:42] ancients, they did so at a cost to their [27:44] political legitimacy. That's a really [27:46] important point. Um so then he talks [27:49] about people like George Bush um and [27:51] other rule American leaders that sent [27:53] people into very questionable military [27:55] conflicts but they came up with a [27:58] justification that would we were still [28:00] in line with Christian morality. It [28:02] wasn't enough to simply say that we as [28:04] the strong can do whatever we want. We [28:06] had to couch couch it all however [28:08] unconvincingly in a framework that made [28:10] it palatable to the Christian [28:12] conscience. And that's the world we're [28:15] leaving behind. and he describes some of [28:17] the things the Trump administration has [28:19] done. Um trying to acquire Greenland [28:22] through threat. Uh we're acting like the [28:24] ancient Greeks brutishly without shame [28:27] or apology and the abdication of [28:29] Christian values is already shaping the [28:31] conduct of our government towards its [28:32] citizens as in Minneapolis where [28:34] immigration agents have killed two [28:36] protesters. [28:38] So he concludes this is Leighton [28:39] Woodhouse. He's an independent [28:40] journalist, documentary filmmaker um and [28:43] a Substack author. Have you heard of [28:45] Substack? Yeah, [28:46] >> I hear all the cool kids have a [28:47] Substack. [28:48] >> That's That's the thing. Now, [28:49] >> we got to get ourselves a Substack. We [28:51] should totally look. [28:52] >> Sounds like a sandwich. [28:53] >> Yeah, [28:55] give me a double I want a double [28:56] Substack. [28:57] >> I want a foot long [28:58] >> with the original sauce. Um, Vice [29:01] President J. D. Vance never tires of [29:03] pointing out that America is a [29:04] philosophically Christian nation and [29:06] that Christianity is under attack from [29:08] his political enemies. Such statements [29:10] get big applause from the Trumploving [29:12] crowds. But the administration he serves [29:15] is doing more than any Antifa foot [29:17] soldier is doing more than any Antifa [29:19] foot soldier to dismantle that [29:21] philosophy as the fundamental basis of [29:23] our government's political legitimacy. [29:26] So here we have liberal, [29:29] progressive, perhaps even leftist [29:32] um authors, journalists saying, "Hey, [29:36] we're losing Christianity. [29:38] Anybody notice this isn't good?" And the [29:41] irony is that the administration, as he [29:42] as he points out, that is always [29:44] trumpeting its Christian identity and [29:45] its Christian [29:47] >> uh base is aggressively advocating pagan [29:52] values and pagan foreign policy and and [29:56] well, did you hear at all about um the [29:59] the Secretary of War's speech at the [30:02] National Prayer Breakfast? [30:04] >> Mhm. [30:04] >> I only saw the president's speech. [30:06] >> Oh, yeah. He he he baptized [30:10] the military in the gospel. That that to [30:14] be a soldier in the in the US military [30:16] was to be doing God's will. Um to give [30:19] your life for the US military was like [30:22] Christ giving his life. It it had [30:25] >> He's far from the first. [30:27] >> I know. But [30:28] >> yeah, I mean that's an American thing we [30:31] say. [30:31] >> Not that bad. But that bad. It was um I [30:36] mean there's a reason he has crusader [30:38] tattoos, [30:38] >> right? [30:40] >> Because that's so many of the people [30:43] that that come to take shots at me on [30:45] Twitter have crusaders as their little [30:49] pictures of of this is how I want to be [30:51] seen. And it's a it's a medieval guy [30:54] with a crusader cross and a sword held [30:56] up and I'm going to go kill people. [30:58] >> It's a clash of civilizations, us versus [31:00] them. We love that. We love the Clash of [31:03] Civilizations. Isn't that a online game? [31:07] >> I wouldn't know. [31:08] >> I think it is. I don't know. [31:11] >> Thoughts, [31:13] Miss Caitlyn? [31:14] >> Yeah. I mean [31:17] in so many ways this article says things [31:18] that we have been saying for a really [31:20] long time which is both western [31:23] political thought not perfectly not [31:25] entirely but has been deeply shaped by [31:27] Christian values to the point where we [31:29] have assumptions about them. Um I I [31:31] appreciate how the article points out [31:32] like even just the idea that the weak [31:34] should be protected was a new idea when [31:37] Christians started saying things like [31:38] that. Um, the thing that I kept thinking [31:41] while I was reading the piece though was [31:43] while I think it would probably be a net [31:45] good for Christian values and ideas to [31:48] be more robustly prominent in our [31:50] politics, not just as Vance or others [31:52] might want as like a symbol or, you [31:54] know, a sense of identity or community, [31:56] but actually robust values and beliefs. [31:59] Well, I think that would be good. I [32:00] think what's happening is we're showing [32:03] proof that those ideas without any of [32:06] the story or metaphysical basis upon [32:09] which they are built don't withstand [32:12] human lives. [32:13] >> Yeah. [32:14] >> Like if you're going to say, well, this [32:16] is just a a feature of our country. This [32:18] is like a legacy, an inheritance of ours [32:20] that we believe these things about [32:22] humans. if you don't bring with that [32:24] where those ideas come from. And I'm not [32:26] saying that we should legislate those, [32:27] you know, Christian stories and values, [32:29] but when you lose a broad sense of of [32:32] most people understand we protect the [32:34] vulnerable and the weak because even if [32:36] we lose our lives in the process, we [32:37] believe in the resurrection of the dead [32:38] and the life of the world to come or we [32:41] value the things that we value because [32:43] Jesus told us to value them and Jesus [32:44] was God. when you get rid of those [32:46] things, it's a lot harder to stand by [32:49] them, when you don't have like a robust [32:51] story making sense for why those things [32:53] are true. So, if if politicians today [32:55] are saying, "Well, we just want to do [32:57] these things because we want more power [32:58] and we want to steamroll over you [32:59] because we can." And then people who [33:01] want to hold those values without any of [33:03] the story or the metaphysics say, "Well, [33:06] just don't like that." There's not much [33:08] behind that. I mean, we can say this is [33:10] like America's Christian inheritance, [33:12] >> but once you discard the underlying [33:14] metaphysics and the underlying story, [33:16] you don't get this great ethic that you [33:18] can just kind of pull away from that [33:20] context and use however you will, you [33:22] lose the foundation upon which it all [33:23] makes sense, [33:24] >> right? Well, and then you get to a point [33:26] where people are saying, you know, [33:28] healthc care is a human right, a basic [33:30] human right that everyone should have. [33:31] And you you see why, [33:33] >> right? [33:33] >> Based on what, right? You know, how and [33:36] when in the world did people say he [33:39] doesn't have access to top medical care? [33:41] This is a wrong that our society must I [33:44] mean that's a fairly recent development [33:46] and it was almost entirely out of [33:48] Christianity in the west to develop it. [33:51] >> Think about where we've come over the [33:52] last couple years. We have not we but we [33:56] have seen a significant segment of the [33:58] American [34:00] population and certainly the MAGA world [34:02] and a lot of the evangelical white [34:03] evangelical church come to a place of [34:05] saying empathy is either toxic or sinful [34:09] if if you quote what you mentioned from [34:12] from Steven Miller they've embraced this [34:14] idea that the real world is governed by [34:16] strength it's governed by force and it's [34:18] governed by power [34:20] >> I I can't think of a statement that is [34:22] more antithetical to the way of Christ. [34:24] I mean, this this is the spirit of [34:26] Antichrist. That's what that is. [34:28] >> And yet, people have baptized this [34:30] administration as God's instrument in [34:32] the world. It's just so completely [34:34] backwards. It's exactly what Isaiah [34:36] said. When these people are going to [34:37] call good evil and evil good and the [34:39] lightness dark and dark lightness, [34:41] that's where we've come to. It's [34:43] bonkers. [34:44] >> Okay, but we've got Trevor Noah on our [34:47] side. [34:48] >> Thank God. [34:50] He's he's on his way. He's on his way to [34:54] help. Trevor Noah was interviewing uh [34:57] Zoran Mdani, the Democratic Socialist [35:00] mayor of New York City. [35:03] And uh Mandani said, "Republicans, this [35:06] is interesting quote, Republicans have a [35:08] limitless imagination. Democrats are [35:10] constructing an everlowering ceiling of [35:13] possibility." Um, we This is uh in a [35:17] Instagram post by Liz Booker. Booker [35:21] Booker Booker Booker Bookar. I'm not [35:25] sure how to say it. [35:25] >> How many times can you try it though? [35:27] >> Um, a few more. I can keep going. Tell [35:29] me when you want me to stop. And Trevor [35:33] Noah's response was, "It's because of [35:35] the decline of religion on the left." [35:38] Um she says she writes Trevor dropped [35:40] this almost casually then explained [35:42] faith requires the ability to believe [35:44] this current state is not the end. There [35:46] is a possibility that something can be [35:48] greater even though you cannot see it [35:50] you can believe you believe it can [35:52] happen. And then Mdani responded saying [35:55] houses of worship still have that trust [35:57] really still have that faith and it's by [35:59] and large lost when it comes to [36:01] politics. [36:02] Um, [36:04] so, uh, she said, Liz says that made her [36:08] think of Catholic theologian David [36:09] Tracy's concept of analogical [36:12] imagination, [36:14] a a trained capacity to see [36:15] possibilities in the present, not [36:17] wishful thinking, disciplined attention [36:19] to what reality suggests is possible. [36:22] Religious traditions, Liz writes, have [36:24] been teaching this for centuries. Hope [36:26] that survives disappointment. It's like [36:28] MLK's beloved community, which wasn't [36:31] utopian fantasy. It was a realistic, [36:33] achievable goal grounded in black church [36:35] theology. King could look at Jim Crow [36:37] America and see what was trying to be [36:39] born. He trained people in disciplined [36:41] hope and it works. So, um, she asked the [36:46] question, "Has religious illiteracy on [36:47] the left meant losing access to the [36:49] tools needed for transformative [36:51] politics? the capacity to imagine [36:53] radically different futures. This [36:55] practice ability to trust in [36:57] possibilities you can't yet prove. [36:59] >> I I wouldn't say it's a loss of [37:01] religious literacy. It's a loss of [37:03] religion. [37:04] >> Oh, okay. Yeah. [37:05] >> And that's what so many people in [37:07] progressive circles and secular settings [37:10] lose this vision. It's you go back and [37:12] look at the civil rights movement or you [37:14] go back earlier to the abolitionist [37:16] movement or pick whatever movement of [37:17] reform you want from prior generations. [37:20] Most of them are rooted in a profoundly [37:22] Christian vision of the world and ethic [37:23] and story as Caitlyn talks about and [37:25] esqueological vision of the redemption [37:28] of all things and the hope of the world [37:29] to come. All that animates and fuels the [37:33] changes we wanted to make in the world [37:34] now. And to to see those changes happen [37:38] and then look back and go, "Oh, we can [37:39] keep doing that, but let's get rid of [37:41] the religion piece of it." [37:42] >> Yeah. And I've mentioned this many times [37:44] on this show in different interviews [37:46] I've done, but back in 2006, then [37:48] Senator Obama did a fantastic talk about [37:51] the role of religion in public discourse [37:53] and in politics and talked about exactly [37:56] this, that these great traditions rooted [37:59] their social activism and their [38:01] political activism in the grounding of [38:03] their faith. And so much of the secular [38:06] left has said, "We want all that [38:07] activism. We want all that change. We [38:08] want all that progress, but we don't [38:10] want to root in any of that stuff [38:11] anymore." [38:11] >> Yeah. and they're they're cutting off [38:13] the engine that fuels it. [38:14] >> Yeah. Yeah. [38:16] >> I appreciated that speech, too. I wrote [38:18] a whole chapter about how I think [38:19] Obama's approach to to religion was in [38:22] many ways better than a lot of like [38:23] conservative evangelical favorite [38:25] politicians. But he did in that speech [38:27] say something that I think happens on [38:28] the left a lot that I think is a a [38:30] misunderstanding of the power of [38:32] religion. He talked a bunch about [38:33] religious language. Like this is the [38:35] moral language of our country. And even [38:37] in this interview, I hear this sense of [38:40] well, let's let's return to religious [38:43] language or the form of religion for the [38:45] sake of this political goal. And as [38:47] you've talked about a bunch, Sky, like [38:49] if you're using Christianity to get [38:50] something other than Christianity, [38:52] you're not actually believing [38:53] Christianity. But also that this goes [38:55] back to this other piece about um Donald [38:58] Trump being a pagan king. You can't [39:01] drain the language of the actual story [39:04] and belief and metaphysics and think [39:07] that it will work as well. [39:08] >> Like I think a lot of people on the left [39:11] want to be fluent in religion or or [39:13] literate in religion. Sometimes it's [39:16] paternalistic. Sometimes it's like for [39:17] the sake of reaching the masses that are [39:20] still confused and believe this backward [39:22] stuff. [39:22] >> The unwashed masses the unwashed mass [39:24] masses. But sometimes it's also it's [39:27] it's I want I don't want to actually I [39:30] don't want to have to believe this stuff [39:31] is actually true, but I want to speak as [39:33] if it is true. As if that's what makes [39:35] religion valuable is it gives this [39:37] imagination or it gives language or it [39:39] gives and I think what is often missed [39:41] as Sky has pointed out is historically [39:44] >> it was not religious language that made [39:45] the civil rights movement. It was this [39:47] like deep belief not only in the life of [39:50] the world to come, but reading this New [39:52] York Times piece, I'm so struck by this [39:54] belief that the story that was being [39:56] told by segregationists, by by violent [39:59] activists, by people who were harming [40:01] those churches and communities, the [40:02] story they believed about what was [40:04] fundamentally true of the world was a [40:06] wrong story in the present. Like even [40:09] this this line you you quoted from [40:11] Miller, we live in the real world [40:12] governed by strength, governed by force, [40:14] governed by power. Part of the Christian [40:16] task is to say, not let's imagine [40:19] something different than that. Let's [40:20] imagine a world that's not governed by [40:22] force or governed by power. There's a [40:23] little bit of that. That's true. We [40:24] we're awaiting the redemption and [40:26] restoration of all things while this is [40:29] in some sense the reality that powerful [40:31] people can do a lot of great evil. But [40:33] on another level, part of the Christian [40:35] task is to say like, no, actually the [40:37] world doesn't work the way that you say [40:39] that it works. You're bending it to your [40:41] will right now, but that won't be [40:43] sustainable forever because the reality [40:45] is that the world that God created that [40:47] is good [40:48] >> isn't run in this kind of way. There's a [40:50] different story that is currently true. [40:53] And you don't get there, you don't get [40:54] there by saying, let's model ourselves [40:56] after religious people. You get there by [40:58] going, do you actually believe in your [41:00] bones that the way that they are [41:01] narrating what is true in the world is [41:03] not just unhelpful or unjust, but is not [41:06] true. That is not the world that God [41:07] made. That is not the reality that is [41:09] true currently. Even though we're [41:11] believing that lie right now, even [41:12] though it seems to be true right now. [41:14] >> So, you say we're all, even the [41:15] non-Christians are starting in Genesis 3 [41:19] >> a little bit. [41:19] >> Yeah. And not just Genesis 3. I mean, [41:21] I've talked a bunch on the show about [41:22] Revelation as this unveiling of what's [41:24] really going on. You think this is the [41:26] normal operation of things. Actually, [41:28] it's the unveiling of like the great [41:29] evil of these powers and this great [41:31] conflict. Revelation is also the unve un [41:33] unveiling of this whole time all of this [41:36] chaos and evil is is forefront of your [41:39] mind is happening on earth. The reality [41:41] like the the the stronger more true [41:43] reality that's happening in heaven [41:46] >> is that the martyrs are celebrating at [41:48] the throne of God and real justice and [41:50] righteousness and truth is already real. [41:52] It doesn't mean [41:54] >> all of the brokenness we're experiencing [41:55] here on earth is just an illusion. No, [41:57] it's really real. But when Steven Miller [42:00] says the real world is governed by [42:01] strength, governed by force, no. Jesus [42:03] Christ defeated those powers and [42:04] principalities on the cross and showed [42:06] us what real power is. Showed us what is [42:08] actually true of creation. For us to [42:10] listen to him and go, "Yeah, you're [42:12] right that that's real, but please act [42:13] nicer is to not be very Christian." To [42:16] be Christian would be to say, "That's [42:17] not the world that God made. That's not [42:18] the world that God desires us to live [42:20] in. But also, you're believing a lie [42:22] that is passing away. And what is [42:24] actually true of the world was revealed [42:26] on the cross." Okay. So, to take a step [42:29] back, what I hear you saying is on in [42:32] the Trump administration, the Steven [42:33] Miller types, they're advocating for a [42:36] profoundly anti-Christian [42:38] way of engaging the world. But what we [42:41] just read from Trevor Noah and Mandani [42:43] and all that, the more progressive side, [42:45] is we want a form of religion, [42:47] >> but we don't want the actual substance [42:49] of it. And this is a bad metaphor, but [42:50] it feels to me like there there are [42:52] people on the progressive left who want [42:55] to cohabitate with Jesus, but they don't [42:57] want to actually marry the guy. [42:59] >> Like they they want the benefits of [43:01] religion, but they don't want any of the [43:02] cost. They don't want any of the [43:03] obligation, [43:04] >> which is true on the right as well. [43:05] Everyone's co-opting [43:06] >> symbol. But that's what's so [43:08] fascinating. So for so many decades on [43:09] the on the religious right, it was we [43:11] want to use Jesus to achieve our [43:12] political objectives. But now they're [43:14] like, [43:15] >> screw that. We just want pagan power. [43:17] Let's let's cut to the chase here. And [43:19] on the left, for so many years, it's [43:21] been, "We don't want Christianity. We [43:22] don't want Jesus. We just want cultural [43:24] transformation." And now they're going, [43:25] "Oh, okay. Maybe we need a little Jesus [43:27] to help us with we lost him. But we [43:29] don't want all the Jesus." Because that [43:30] would ask too much of us. [43:32] >> Jesus juice. Some Jesus [43:34] >> diet Jesus. [43:35] >> Yeah. Jesus light. [43:38] >> So what do we So what do we say to our [43:39] progressive friends? like what do you [43:41] what do you because the the instinct to [43:44] to [43:46] at least admire the teaching of Jesus [43:48] and its effect on people is good. Yes. [43:52] >> And we want to encourage it. But how do [43:54] we get past that to, you know, he was [43:57] actually a real person that asked for [44:00] your allegiance, [44:02] >> right? I I I to Caitlyn's point, I think [44:04] this is true of everyone on all sides. [44:06] People are drawn to Jesus for all kinds [44:08] of different reasons. Great. take a step [44:10] closer. Our job or those of us who feel [44:12] called to this, our job is to keep [44:15] inviting them in deeper. Yeah. And to [44:17] discover he's not just someone or [44:19] something you use to achieve some other [44:21] end. [44:22] >> He is in and of himself the most [44:25] valuable thing and the goal and the end [44:27] to which all things point. So devote [44:29] yourself to him. [44:32] Seek first the kingdom of God. All these [44:34] other things will be added onto you. But [44:36] you don't get the other things and [44:37] bypass the king whose kingdom it is. [44:40] >> Yeah. [44:41] >> Can't you just like sneak into the [44:43] palace and steal some of the things that [44:45] you want and then apply them without him [44:49] noticing? [44:51] >> Well, if if you look at it as it's a [44:54] it's a useful fiction, [44:56] >> right? That's how some people see it. [44:57] >> Hey, we're forgetting the values of the [45:00] Lord of the Rings. Everyone read the [45:02] books, watch the movies. We need to [45:05] return to the values of Tolken in his [45:09] fictitious world. It's that's kind of [45:11] where we are. [45:12] >> Yeah. And the irony is on the other side [45:13] they're saying we really want a [45:14] Christian society again, but we're going [45:16] to use pagan tactics to get it. [45:17] >> Yeah. [45:18] >> The other side is saying we want a [45:20] utopian kind of society and we want to [45:22] use Christian tactics to get it, but we [45:23] don't want all of it because some of it [45:25] asks too much of us. Yeah. [45:26] >> So, everyone's trying to [45:28] >> force it on their terms. And at some [45:30] point, you just have to fall before [45:31] Jesus and go, "All right, we'll do it on [45:33] your terms, including the mercy and the [45:36] empathy and the kindness towards those [45:38] who are our enemies and the dignity of [45:40] all people and the things you are asking [45:42] of us to surrender. We accept the whole [45:44] thing, not just [45:46] >> too much [45:46] >> the little bits we want. [45:47] >> It's just too much. It's it's too it's [45:49] it's free and it's also costly." Mhm. [45:53] I think the way that you phrase that [45:54] question, Phil, is really important [45:56] because how I would speak about the [46:00] people who want to use religious [46:02] language for political goals and have a [46:05] lot of power is very different than the [46:07] way I would want to speak to someone [46:08] who's seeing this post on Instagram and [46:10] going, "Oh, yeah, interesting. I'm like [46:12] curious about imagining a different [46:14] possibility." Like I have a little bit [46:15] of a harsher edge to me for the people [46:16] who have a lot of power and tend to use [46:19] it in this kind of flippant way. But I I [46:21] think you're totally right that there [46:22] are plenty of people who regardless of [46:24] where they are on the political spectrum [46:26] are suddenly realizing that something is [46:28] missing in their family and their [46:30] community and their politics. Even if [46:31] they're what, you know, on the right or [46:33] the left, they might have an experience [46:34] of watching the Trump administration in [46:36] particular and going, "Wait, what was it [46:38] that made past presidents feel [46:40] accountable to describe what they did in [46:42] ways that that you know were distinctly [46:44] moral in these ways? And why is that [46:46] lost now?" Right? and along the skies. [46:48] >> Why were we embarrassed to say actually [46:51] we did kind of do this for just people a [46:55] sense of shame? [46:56] >> Why did people have to repent? Why did [46:57] they have to I mean even if they were [46:59] lying and that was bad, they felt the [47:00] need to present things in a certain [47:02] light to show that [47:03] >> and if you accidentally tweeted out say [47:06] pictures of a former president and his [47:08] wife as apes, you would rush to [47:11] apologize, right? Even if you kind of [47:13] maybe did it on purpose, but you didn't [47:15] think it would get out, you would rush [47:16] to apologize. [47:18] >> This I did a whole sky pod skydive some [47:20] months ago about the the positive side [47:22] of hypocrisy. That's kind of what we're [47:24] talking about. Like [47:26] >> hypocrisy, though wrong, shows that you [47:29] still have a sense of what is right. [47:31] >> It points to a standard. [47:32] >> Exactly. And the reason you're hiding [47:33] the truth of your own failure is because [47:35] you believe the standard is still good. [47:37] And [47:37] >> where have all the hypocrites gone? [47:39] >> Oh my gosh, [47:39] >> that's the problem. But I really do [47:42] think for the people who are starting to [47:44] have this experience of like oh what is [47:46] happening [47:47] >> progressives [47:47] >> on both ends like I mean I I see this [47:50] evident in the people who are going oh [47:52] wait is there some value to religion [47:53] that I have been missing in my politics. [47:55] I also see this on the right right now [47:57] with people who for some of for some of [47:58] them some of what's been happening with [48:00] ICE, some of the murders, some of the [48:02] the the significant presence and the [48:04] terrorizing of immigrant communities has [48:06] made them go wait like I I something has [48:09] changed here and I'm curious about it. I [48:11] I do think along the lines of what Sky [48:13] said, there is a great opportunity to [48:15] say, hey, it's actually even better than [48:17] you thought. Like you thought it had [48:19] this limited political goal. [48:21] >> What if it's also true? And what if it [48:23] really means something for your whole [48:24] life? And and yes, it comes with all [48:27] this cost, [48:28] >> but again, my whole point in the [48:29] beginning was like the cost doesn't make [48:31] sense without the larger story that says [48:33] why it's worth it, right? [48:34] >> And if I show you why it's worth it, I'm [48:36] not starting with just actually Jesus [48:38] asks more of you than just, you know, [48:40] being used for your political goals. I'm [48:41] actually saying it's so much bigger and [48:43] better than the political goals you're [48:44] trying to achieve. Jesus gets you so [48:46] much more than your candidate having a [48:47] better shot at winning or the bills you [48:49] want passing getting passed. He offers [48:51] you everything. eternal life, the [48:52] reconciliation and redemption of all [48:53] things. [48:54] >> No, all I want is All I want is rent [48:56] control. [48:58] >> That's just that I'm [48:59] >> You get rent control in heaven. Phil, [49:01] you do. I promise [49:03] >> it. It's the parable. It's you find the [49:05] treasure buried in a field, you sell [49:06] everything you have to gain because what [49:08] you're gaining is so much more valuable [49:09] than what you are giving up. [49:10] >> Yes. I I don't want to be cynical about [49:13] people on the left who are suddenly [49:14] interested in religion. Yeah, [49:15] >> I'm a little cynical of maybe the the [49:17] kind of conflict entrepreneurs who [49:19] suddenly realize that it's maybe useful. [49:21] But for other people, I want to say, [49:23] >> yeah, this is actually how Christianity [49:25] spreads is people going, "Oh my gosh, is [49:27] the world [49:28] >> bigger and better? Is there more out [49:30] there than I thought? Is it true?" [49:32] >> And painting the picture that makes you [49:35] want it to be true. because a lot of the [49:37] comments on on her Instagram post um as [49:41] I was scrolling down were people saying [49:42] things like, "Yeah, but this is BS [49:44] because if you're a Christian, all you [49:46] care about is the next life. So the one [49:48] what you do in this one doesn't matter [49:49] and you don't care about this world." [49:51] >> That's a warped kind of Christian. [49:53] >> That's the narrative we're up against. [49:55] >> You know, is partly we have created a [49:57] Christianity that doesn't care about [50:00] what happens in this world, [50:01] >> which is why some of the people who were [50:02] raised in those environments in those [50:04] Christian environments are chucking it [50:05] too. And they're that this is like there [50:07] are people disillusioned coming from [50:09] both ends. [50:09] >> Right. Right. [50:10] >> Oh boy. Oh [50:12] >> and hopefully they find the real Jesus [50:14] somewhere. [50:14] >> Yeah. Someone should help them. Yeah. [50:16] >> Someone someone should try to help them. [50:18] Let's try to help them. Okay. Okay. [50:21] Mike, you okay? [50:22] >> Okay. I'll start my own podcast. [50:24] >> Okay. You're on so many podcasts [50:26] already. You don't need another podcast, [50:29] fella. Hey everybody, thanks for coming [50:32] along. Thanks for supporting us. Go to [50:33] Holy Post Plus. There's lots of stuff [50:35] that Skye's making, Caitlyn's making, [50:37] Esau's making, even Mike might be making [50:39] stuff and [50:40] >> so much stuff [50:41] >> I pop in every now and then, but I'm [50:43] making stuff for kids I can't wait to [50:45] tell you about. Okay, we'll see you next [50:47] week. Bye. [50:50] >> This episode is sponsored by Policy [50:52] Genius. I got a life insurance policy [50:54] almost 30 years ago when my kids were [50:56] little. 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[54:09] In 1997, Joshua Harris's book, I Kiss [54:12] Dating Goodbye, was released and became [54:14] the seinal work for the True Love [54:16] Weights movement. Harris was just 21 [54:18] years old, but he found himself in the [54:20] spotlight. He was the poster child for [54:23] purity culture. In the years that [54:25] followed, he became a megaurch pastor [54:27] and eventually the president of [54:29] Sovereign Grace Churches. Despite all [54:31] this notoriety and influence, under the [54:33] surface, Harris was harboring all kinds [54:36] of doubts about the fundamentalist [54:37] Christianity he was raised within and [54:40] now leading. He was rethinking [54:42] everything, including the book that [54:43] defined his identity and launched his [54:46] career. About 10 years ago, Harris [54:48] publicly apologized for his book and the [54:50] way his participation in purity culture [54:53] had hurt so many people. And he even [54:55] asked the publisher to stop sales of I [54:57] kiss dating goodbye. But the more [54:59] shocking news came in 2019. That's when [55:01] Harris announced that he and his wife [55:03] were divorcing and that he was no longer [55:05] a Christian. It's hard to overstate how [55:07] seismic this was within conservative [55:09] evangelical subcultures. Joshua Harris, [55:12] the cheerleader for purity culture, had [55:15] suddenly become a cheerleader for the [55:17] deconstruction movement. For some, he [55:19] represented the false promises and [55:21] failures of American evangelicalism, all [55:23] wrapped up in one package. But that [55:26] wasn't the end of the story. More [55:28] recently, Harris posted on Instagram [55:30] that he's curious about Jesus again. [55:33] He's recognized the shortcomings and [55:34] what he calls bully energy that exists [55:37] in progressive secular communities as [55:39] well. And he says that the years after [55:41] he left his faith were sometimes marked [55:44] by an overcorrection. [55:46] We talked about Harris's recent [55:48] Instagram post a few weeks ago. And [55:50] after that episode, I asked our producer [55:52] Mike to reach out to Harris. I was [55:54] curious to hear more about his story and [55:56] thankfully he agreed to come on the [55:58] show. My conversation with Harris was [56:00] way longer than we could fit into just [56:01] this episode. So, the first 30 minutes [56:04] are here, but we've posted the rest of [56:06] the interview on Holy Post Plus for [56:08] subscribers. You can go to holyost.com [56:10] to learn how to sign up and access that. [56:13] Here is my conversation with Joshua [56:15] Harris. [56:24] Joshua Harris, welcome to the Holy Post. [56:26] >> Hey, thanks so much for having me. [56:29] >> I'm delighted to have this conversation. [56:31] Um, it must be weird for you that the [56:34] thing that people know you most for, you [56:36] did when you were what, 21 years old, [56:39] the the publishing of your book, So, I I [56:42] kissed Dating Goodbye. Um, I want to get [56:44] into some of that. We're not going to [56:45] talk about the book and purity culture [56:46] and all that stuff because you've talked [56:48] about that at nauseium and other [56:49] settings and places, but I do want to [56:51] talk about the background of that book. [56:53] How is it that you were able to publish [56:56] a book at 21 years old? [57:01] >> Yeah, I um I there are days where I I [57:05] would love to pass the book for the the [57:07] contents of that book on to other [57:08] people, but um I I wrote it. I believed [57:13] it with all my heart. I sought to spread [57:16] it. And the answer to the question, how [57:19] I got a a book contract was tied to [57:23] uh in many ways I I'd say the the family [57:26] business that I was a part of. My dad [57:28] was a an influential leader in the [57:30] homeschool movement. Traveled across the [57:33] country teaching workshops to tens of [57:37] thousands of families. I came alongside [57:41] him, began to speak at his workshops [57:44] when I was a teenager, started [57:46] publishing a magazine for homeschooled [57:48] teens, started doing my own conferences [57:52] for teenagers. And so I had you know [57:56] pre- social media pre you know explosion [57:59] of the internet a you know an audience a [58:04] platform a lot of people that I was [58:06] interacting with directly and also sort [58:09] of inroads to the publishing world [58:11] because my dad was in the in the [58:13] publishing world. So I'd go and man the [58:15] book table at CBA Christian Book Sellers [58:17] Association and talk go and talk to all [58:20] the different publishers and that kind [58:22] of a thing. And so I had relationships [58:24] and connections that I think were were [58:26] unique and a platform that that got them [58:30] to to pay attention to my manuscript. [58:32] >> Okay. So that that raises a a different [58:35] question for me. I've been in the [58:36] Christian publishing world too. [58:37] Obviously, I'm not at the same age, but [58:41] did in the process of you speaking at [58:44] these events, building an audience, [58:46] publishing a magazine as a teenager, and [58:48] then eventually writing a manuscript for [58:49] a book and having publishers express [58:52] interest in it. Did anyone in your older [58:54] person in your life, whether a parent or [58:56] a publisher, somebody, did anyone ever [58:58] step in and go, [58:59] >> "Hey, Josh, you know, great that you're [59:01] interested in all this, but maybe you [59:03] need to slow down or maybe this isn't [59:05] the best thing for your faith or [59:06] formation right now to be put out front [59:09] in front of so many people in these [59:10] different venues." Did that ever happen? [59:13] You know, I I I have one memory of u the [59:17] pastor of the church that I grew up in. [59:20] Um [59:22] Stu Weber, God bless him. He he's a he's [59:25] a an icon, you know, tender warrior uh [59:29] kind of guy. I remember him making a [59:32] comment about how people shouldn't write [59:34] books until they're 40, at least 40. [59:38] And it stood out to me because it was [59:39] kind of like, "Oh, wow." You know, the [59:42] sad thing about that is that it was [59:46] almost like a comment in passing. It [59:49] wasn't a let me just sit down. I know [59:52] this is going to this is going to be [59:53] hard to hear this. I say this in love. [59:56] It was more of I would say more on the [60:00] level of isn't this annoying? These [60:03] young kids think they have something to [60:05] say. And that kind of delivery. I'm not [60:07] putting any blame on him at all. He was [60:09] one of the few people, I think, who was [60:11] making an astute observation, but it's [60:13] an example of the disconnect between a [60:16] certain kind of wisdom connecting with a [60:19] younger person when it's said in a way [60:21] that is is not empowering and, you know, [60:26] >> relational, I guess you could say. [60:29] >> But, but that really stands out to me as [60:30] one of the few examples. and you know [60:34] the machine of that world which is it's [60:36] easy to criticize but it's just people [60:38] doing their jobs. It's an acquisition [60:40] editor that goes, "Wow, this kid has an [60:41] audience. Oh, this is a fresh take. This [60:44] is kind of interesting." It doesn't take [60:45] a lot of people to greenlight something [60:48] like that. And I think in the in the [60:50] evangelical world, there's a tradition [60:52] that goes back a long way where we love [60:55] to we love to highlight young people [60:57] that are that are catching fire, you [60:59] know, for the faith. We love that zeal. [61:01] Like it's something that inspires the [61:03] older people. There's an emphasis on the [61:05] next generation. So when you see the [61:07] next generation grabbing hold of [61:10] messages and ideas that you approve of, [61:13] >> you're like, "Yeah, let's let's give [61:14] this person the stage. Let's give them [61:16] the mic. This is great. They're they're [61:18] going to inspire other young people [61:19] their age." And I think that's what my [61:22] book was a a really big example of [61:24] >> in the early 2000s. Your book came out [61:25] in 97. In the early 2000s after I uh [61:28] finished seminary, I was a pastor and [61:30] then I started working at Christianity [61:31] Today and going to a lot of ministry [61:32] conferences. That was kind of the heyday [61:34] of the so-called emerging church [61:37] >> trend. And there were all these younger [61:39] 20some pastors at different parts of the [61:42] country that were all getting these [61:43] publishing deals. And I remember talking [61:45] to an executive at a Christian publisher [61:48] and asking him, "How long is this [61:49] emerging church thing going to go?" [61:51] Like, "Is this got legs? Is this a [61:53] long-term kind of movement thing?" Mhm. [61:55] >> And he very dryly said to me, "It has 18 [61:59] months." And I I was like, "What do you [62:02] mean?" And he goes, "Well, that's when [62:03] our marketing plan runs out for the emer [62:05] like we created the emerging church and [62:07] it's going to run out 18 months." Um, [62:09] and from that experience and many others [62:11] around 2012, I wrote an article in which [62:13] I talked about and coined the term the [62:16] evangelical industrial complex. [62:18] >> And so this is a question I wanted to [62:20] ask you. Having grown up in kind of the [62:22] homeschool more fundamentalist [62:24] uh stream of American Christianity, we [62:27] can critique that all day long, but I [62:28] would argue one of the [62:31] lessons and I think strengths of [62:33] fundamentalism [62:35] is that it it relies very heavily on [62:37] wisdom from the past. It says this is [62:39] what we've inherited. Whether it's [62:42] doctrinal truths of scripture or models [62:43] of tr whatever it might be family [62:45] structures things like that there's [62:46] there's things we have inherited that we [62:48] should not throw away but retain the [62:50] wisdom of but one of those great [62:53] heritages of American or any Christian [62:55] tradition is the importance of [62:58] structures of accountability [63:00] and I mean all the way back to the New [63:02] Testament where Paul says don't don't [63:03] appoint new believers to these positions [63:05] of authority but make sure they're [63:07] they've been tested and [63:09] >> why is it that part of Christian [63:12] tradition. Why has that been jettisoned [63:15] by American evangelicalism or American [63:17] fundamentalism that says, "No, no, no. [63:19] We don't care if they're untested. We [63:21] don't care if they're untrained. If [63:23] they're able to draw a crowd and sell [63:24] books, we're going to give them a [63:26] microphone and put them on a platform." [63:28] How do you explain that piece not being [63:30] part of the package of what we want to [63:32] retain from the past? [63:35] Yeah, I think that um [63:41] most traditions [63:43] have a tendency to [63:46] um be better at applying [63:50] certain traditions and um they can kind [63:54] of pick and choose. And I think that [63:57] when it comes to [63:59] getting more market share, more acclaim, [64:03] more success, it's hard to [64:07] pay attention to those commands. I mean, [64:09] you could say the same thing about, you [64:10] know, commandments about greed and, you [64:14] know, ignoring the poor, those those [64:16] kinds of things. those are great, but if [64:19] that restrains you from, you know, being [64:22] pals with the with the ultra wealthy or, [64:25] you know, filling your own pockets, [64:26] those kinds of things. So, I mean, I [64:28] just think that we all can be selective [64:31] when it's when it's to our own benefit. [64:35] Um, you know, I think part of my own [64:38] struggle with some of these things is [64:40] that, you know, you when you're when [64:42] you're in church systems and you're [64:44] benefiting from them, you're at the top [64:46] of the pile. [64:47] >> It's hard to see the flaws. It's like, [64:50] this is great. This system is great. [64:53] >> Yeah. It worked for me, right? So, it [64:55] must [64:55] >> work great for me. Yeah. Exactly. But [64:57] there are other people in that same [64:58] system, you know, like I remember being [65:01] a pastor, single women in the church, [65:03] they were much more ready to go, hey, [65:05] you know what? There's some there seem [65:07] to be some flaws in this structure. I [65:09] feel really pushed out and isolated and [65:12] you know, families with kids, you you [65:14] you pastors love them, but what what [65:16] about me? That kind of thing. That's [65:18] just an example of how depending on [65:20] where you are in the the structure, you [65:22] you benefit or you don't benefit. And [65:24] again, when you're benefiting, it's hard [65:26] to be honest about the inconsistencies [65:29] and the hypocrisies. [65:31] And [65:33] I think it's just easy for humans to use [65:36] the power they have to push certain [65:38] things out and highlight certain things [65:41] and, you know, use the the the excuse of [65:44] being faithful to the fundamentals as as [65:47] a way to control and and remain in [65:49] power. Um, and I'm not saying that's [65:51] true of everybody. I'm just saying that [65:52] that's that's a temptation for all of [65:54] us. [65:55] >> Um, as somebody who at that time [65:58] benefited from the system to use your [66:00] phrase, [66:01] >> you benefited with uh notoriety with [66:04] influence perhaps financially and then [66:07] you you were [66:09] >> in short order accelerated into ministry [66:12] roles in church roles and even church [66:14] leadership roles. [66:15] >> So you benefited in one way. Looking [66:17] back, can you talk a little bit about [66:21] how you actually didn't benefit or the [66:23] way it impaired [66:25] >> you in some way or your faith [66:26] development in some way unexpectedly? [66:29] >> That's a great question. I I do think [66:33] that I was [66:36] promoted and given opportunities [66:39] that I grabbed hold of just assuming of, [66:42] you know, if someone's saying that I'm [66:44] going to be the next lead pastor, I'm [66:46] going to lead this movement. You know, [66:48] if these these people who have who are [66:50] established leaders and so successful [66:53] for the Lord, you know, if they're [66:54] seeing that in me, then it must be, you [66:56] know, the will of God. And I think I [66:59] walked through open doors when I needed [67:02] to linger in places of learning, of [67:05] wrestling, of you know, considering [67:08] other viewpoints and perspectives. So I [67:10] bypassed a lot of those things because [67:12] of the opportunities [67:14] and [67:16] and I, you know, I I really missed I [67:18] think seasons where I should have been [67:22] wrestling and and asking harder [67:24] questions. And a lot a lot of that's on [67:26] me. Just even my personality, I think [67:28] I'm, you know, [67:30] my whole personality is more one of, oh, [67:33] is this is this what the team says? [67:35] Let's I want to be a good team player. [67:37] You know, I want to go along with [67:39] things. I went right from being in my [67:41] parents house and carrying those banners [67:43] to moving into, you know, the the [67:46] basement of the senior pastor at the [67:48] church I was trained at. And I just [67:50] embraced everything that we believed [67:53] instead of saying, "Well, I want to [67:54] think through this. let's I want to I [67:56] want to hear the other side of this [67:57] story. And I was in an environment that [68:00] didn't encourage that kind of thinking, [68:02] right? [68:02] >> Um you know, it didn't encourage, hey, [68:04] let's let's debate and wrestle with [68:06] these different theological viewpoints. [68:08] It was no, here are the here's the [68:10] approved list of books. Here's the [68:12] approved list of theologians. Here's how [68:14] we do things. and stepping into a [68:17] leadership role so young, I just became [68:19] a spokesman [68:21] for those values instead of someone who [68:24] was curious and and asking questions. [68:27] >> It sounds like you were in an [68:29] environment that mistook certainty for [68:32] maturity. [68:35] >> That's a great way to put it. Yeah. And [68:37] I don't I mean, yes, I appreciate you're [68:38] taking responsibility for the things [68:40] that you chose and going along with, but [68:43] I'm a little disappointed that you [68:44] didn't have adults, older adults around [68:46] you with the maturity and wisdom to say, [68:48] "Hey, Josh, maybe you need to slow down. [68:51] Maybe you need more time for [68:54] >> training, reflection, life experience, [68:56] getting knocked down a few times before [68:58] you're given so many platforms of [69:00] significant influence." I've just heard [69:02] this story over and over and over again [69:04] from people close to me, other people [69:06] I've I've worked alongside who were very [69:09] gifted and very good on a platform and [69:12] wonderful relationally. And so they were [69:14] just pushed to more and more influence [69:16] in ministry settings and there wasn't [69:18] any attention given by the people around [69:20] them and the leaders around them [69:22] >> to the the strength of their soul and [69:25] their capacity to carry that influence. [69:27] And it it either leads to some kind of [69:28] ministry breakdown or just personal [69:30] devastation on some level. Um, if you [69:34] could go back, I guess there's two ways [69:35] to answer this that frame this question. [69:37] And I know you've got kids around my [69:38] kids' ages, kind of young adult ages, [69:42] >> and I don't want you to talk about your [69:43] kids, like I don't want talking about my [69:44] kids, but if one or more of your kids [69:46] came to you with like a real drive [69:47] towards a ministry [69:50] uh vocation or platform, I'm curious [69:52] what you would what wisdom would you [69:54] impart to them now [69:56] >> that you maybe didn't receive when you [69:57] were their age? [70:02] >> Yeah. I I mean [70:05] it's so hard for me to imagine any of my [70:07] kids wanting to go into ministry. I'm [70:09] having a little bit of a trouble with a [70:10] question. Random young random young [70:12] adult comes to you. [70:13] >> Young person. [70:14] >> Yeah. [70:15] >> Um [70:18] I think that [70:21] there is [70:23] in that first half of life, you know, [70:26] Richard Roar talks about the first half [70:28] of life. It's it's all about securing [70:30] your identity. [70:32] feeling safe because you are believing [70:36] the right things, living the right way, [70:38] striving towards uh different goals. [70:41] That can be in a ministry context, that [70:44] can be in a you know career context. [70:47] And there is a certain [70:50] sense in which I think it's pretty hard [70:52] to break through that young person's [70:57] view of the world and impart that [71:00] wisdom. I mean, I think you know, you've [71:03] said some of those things. Hey, slow [71:06] down. Don't find your identity in this [71:10] role. Don't equate your relationship [71:14] with God to a position. [71:17] Separate the the audience of one, as to [71:21] use a evangelical phrase, from the the [71:23] audience of people that are cheering you [71:25] on. [71:27] Recognize the [71:30] different motivations that are around [71:32] you that are hard to see. Like it's hard [71:34] to sort through the voice of God. and if [71:39] you ask this theological question, [71:41] you're going to lose your internship. [71:43] Like, it's hard to it's hard to be [71:45] honest about those kinds of things. And [71:47] so, I I probably would just say there's [71:51] there's going to be some benefit to [71:53] growing your faith outside of that being [71:56] tied to your livelihood and your [71:58] identity. That would be the the [72:01] encouragement that I would bring. And I [72:02] I think you know the reason that in [72:05] these settings it's so hard to encourage [72:08] young people to do those kinds of things [72:10] is there is a risk there's a risk [72:14] whenever you ask any question that you [72:16] will come up with a wrong answer. And so [72:19] if you are if you're coming from a more [72:21] fundamentalist viewpoint that says there [72:23] are a lot of wrong answers out there. In [72:25] fact the world is more filled with wrong [72:27] answers than right answers. Then you're [72:29] going to be very protective. You're [72:32] going to be very controlling. You're [72:34] going to create your own, you know, [72:36] in-house educational programs, whether [72:38] that's homeschooling or your own [72:40] colleges or your own seminaries, [72:42] whatever it might be. And you're going [72:44] to discourage [72:46] people from asking too many questions or [72:48] listening to all the voices because [72:50] there's a chance that that they'll come [72:51] back with what you consider to be a [72:53] wrong answer. So, I I do think there's a [72:55] lot of fear and control [72:59] that builds the structures. And if [73:01] somebody is running hard in the answers [73:03] that you like, let them run. You know, [73:06] you're like, "Oh, great. Just let them [73:07] run." Because you're more concerned with [73:10] propping up your system and your [73:13] structure than I think it kind of being [73:18] open to mystery or or believing that God [73:20] can be working even if they take a [73:23] viewpoint that's that's different than [73:25] the the establishment. uh something I've [73:28] written a lot about but I find so ironic [73:30] is that these communities that talk so [73:32] much about the importance of faith [73:35] don't recognize how control is the [73:37] antithesis of faith [73:40] >> and uh you mentioned it multiple times [73:42] in your answer there that fear and that [73:44] need for control uh it just seems [73:46] contrary to the life we're called to. Um [73:49] let's move ahead in the story a little [73:50] bit because uh roughly 10 years ago you [73:53] openly [73:55] apologized for the what some of the [73:58] ideas that you contributed to through [73:59] your book and the purity culture stuff [74:01] and you asked the publisher to please [74:02] discontinue the book which they did. [74:05] >> Uh you got a lot of attention for that [74:07] but then you also got a lot of attention [74:08] when you publicly said hey I don't think [74:11] I'm a Christian anymore. M [74:13] >> um why did you why did you want to do [74:16] that publicly? Why was it important for [74:18] you to not just wrestle with all those [74:22] things going on? You were, you know, the [74:23] deconstruct that word's kind of [74:24] overused, but you you clearly were going [74:26] through some kind of process like that. [74:29] What made you want to put that out in [74:30] front of everybody uh for everyone to [74:33] see? [74:34] >> Yeah. [74:38] To go back to your earlier question of [74:40] giving advice to others, if when other [74:42] people come and say, "Hey, I'm thinking [74:44] of deconstructing publicly and putting [74:46] this out there," I often say, "Slow [74:48] down. Let's take take your time and [74:50] think about that." [74:50] >> In other words, slow down in in in the [74:53] formation of your faith and even slow [74:54] down in the deformationation of your [74:55] faith. [74:56] >> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Um, the reason [75:00] that I did that is is very tied to the [75:04] specifics of what I was going through in [75:05] my life at the time. Uh I think it was [75:08] also tied to [75:11] in a sense the same patterns that had [75:13] guided me all along which is I want to [75:16] be a person of integrity. I want you [75:18] know what I say publicly to match what's [75:20] going on internally and if it's not then [75:23] I feel this obligation to kind of say [75:26] that and and acknowledge that and and so [75:29] on. So, it was a very black and white [75:30] kind of thinking that I' I'd lived with [75:33] as a, you know, an evangelical [75:35] fundamentalist, whatever Christian for [75:37] all those years. It's like you're in or [75:39] you're out. You believe or you don't [75:41] believe. You're not living according to [75:43] the faith. And you should be put out of [75:45] the church or, you know, that that kind [75:46] of mindset guided me a long time as a [75:48] pastor. And so when my life didn't match [75:52] up, I'm getting divorced, you know, I'm [75:54] all the these things that in my mind [75:56] were like getting close to that [75:58] unforgivable kind of sin category. There [76:01] was a sense in which I was just like, I [76:03] can't defend what I'm doing, but I'm I'm [76:05] on this path. I'm not changing the path. [76:08] I'm out, guys. Like that was that was [76:10] kind of what took place there. [76:12] >> In terms of the life circumstances, [76:16] there's a lot of sadness. There was a [76:18] there was a sense in which everything [76:21] that I thought about myself, everything [76:23] that I had built my life around was [76:25] crumbling and you know the intertwining [76:29] of my relationship with God to [76:34] my work, my family, my identity as a [76:37] writer, my identity as a pastor, my [76:40] identity as a good husband, my identity [76:43] as an author of best-selling books that [76:45] help people, you know, honor God in [76:47] their relationships. All those things [76:51] through a number of different events [76:54] just one by one crumbled and fell apart. [76:58] And [77:00] you know, I think it was just like a [77:02] week before that my ex-wife and I [77:05] announced that we were separating. [77:08] And you know, we'd live through so many [77:10] kind of things as a church where [77:12] everything in your life is going to be [77:14] made public. if you don't get out and [77:15] say it, it's going to be on a blog. It's [77:18] gonna be like, and so I lived in that [77:20] world. And so there was kind of this [77:22] mindset of, well, I'm going to be the [77:23] one to tell people, you know, we're [77:25] we're separating. That was a huge [77:27] explosion. The guy who wrote I kiss [77:29] dating a buy, you know, is getting [77:31] divorced. [77:32] >> And at the time, there was a huge [77:35] backlash towards my ex-wife saying, "Oh, [77:38] well, she's an ex. She's been saying [77:40] using the term exangelical, [77:43] you know, h there, you know, he he [77:45] didn't marry a godly woman or whatever, [77:47] all these kinds of things because she [77:49] had been more vocal about that. [77:52] And this is just kind of a misogynistic [77:54] response. It was it must be her fault. [77:57] Josh is this godly man. Their marriage [77:59] is ending. It must be the woman's fault. [78:02] And I think, you know, in a way it was [78:05] like I was watching my whole life burn [78:07] down. And I was like, "Well, it's not [78:10] going to hurt to throw a little more gas [78:11] on the fire." I mean, that so that [78:13] announcement to my, you know, saying, [78:15] "You know what, guys? Actually, I don't [78:18] even I don't even know that I can I [78:20] don't even know that I call myself a [78:22] Christian. According to everything that [78:23] I've for all these years thought about [78:25] being a Christian, I'm out. And I'm not [78:27] even I'm not trying to defend myself or [78:30] claim I'm anything." [78:32] Um, and so that was Yeah, that's what [78:35] that moment was was about. I In some [78:38] sense, you're you are very far from [78:40] unique. I mean, there are many many many [78:43] people who whose marriages have ended, [78:47] whose faith has struggled, whose who [78:50] who've reacted to the things they grew [78:51] up in or environments and communities [78:53] they've been a part of. But [78:55] >> what does make your story a little bit [78:56] more unique is you were on a platform [78:59] from the time you were a teenager. [79:02] And that platform only got bigger with [79:04] the book and then being a pastor and [79:07] then leading this denominational, you [79:10] know, network of churches. And so you [79:12] were always kind of in the fishbowl. [79:14] And so it makes sense then when you hit [79:16] this season where your marriage is [79:19] struggling and your faith is collapsing [79:20] and you're questioning all these things [79:21] that that also has to be on the [79:23] platform. It has to be seen by [79:25] everybody. Um, I what worries me about [79:29] myself, what worries me about for my [79:30] kids and anyone who like I I don't know [79:33] how you form healthy anything when [79:36] everyone's looking at you. [79:38] >> Mhm. [79:39] >> And I Yeah, [79:42] it just seems really strange. I don't [79:44] fault you for being public with those [79:46] things given that your whole life up to [79:47] that point had been very public and your [79:49] faith had been very public. It makes [79:51] sense. Um, but I wonder what your [79:55] process both as a young person and now [79:57] middle-aged as we are would look like [79:59] had it not been under a spotlight or on [80:02] a platform or on social media. [80:04] >> Uh, but we just don't allow people to do [80:06] that [80:07] >> if you've been a pastor or you're in a [80:09] public place anymore. One of the things [80:11] you wrote about, we talked about this on [80:12] our last Holy Post episode. You recently [80:14] posted a Instagram, I don't know what [80:16] they're called, multiple page things. [80:19] I'm right old. Yeah. Um, but you did [80:22] mention that part of that season for you [80:24] eight years ago had to do with Donald [80:26] Trump and the way the evangelical world [80:28] had embraced him. Uh, [80:31] how much do you attribute that broader [80:34] dynamic to your deconstruction process [80:38] and how much was it the more intimate [80:40] realities of your life, the the [80:42] breakdown of things that you just [80:43] mentioned, whether it was your marriage [80:44] or or your your community or your [80:46] ministry [80:47] >> and how much of it was influenced by the [80:48] broader dynamics going on in the culture [80:51] and the evangelical subculture [80:53] especially at the time? [80:56] Yeah, I think it was primarily all the [80:59] dynamics of what was what was taking [81:01] place in my in my personal life and the [81:04] upheaval that happened there. [81:07] The backdrop of the political situation. [81:11] I mean, we can all say this. It's like [81:12] it's this unavoidable [81:15] massive distraction, polarizing force, [81:18] relationship disrupting kind of uh [81:21] moment in in history. So I think for me [81:26] it was just um icing on the cake to you [81:30] know to use that that metaphor of [81:33] for so long I bought into a certain view [81:37] of of how Christians were were to be [81:40] involved in the world and you know I [81:43] voted Republican all my life. If I can [81:45] remember being, you know, a six-year-old [81:47] kid and drawing a very disrespectful [81:52] caricature of Jimmy Carter, like I'm [81:54] drawing cartoons and my parents are [81:56] like, you know, laughing and praising me [81:57] for doing this terrible picture of Jimmy [81:59] Carter. Like, you know, for as long as I [82:02] can remember, again, faith was very [82:05] intertwined with a certain political [82:07] viewpoint. And I think that, you know, [82:12] um, Donald Trump obviously completely [82:15] hijacked the Republican party. He's [82:17] taken over in so many different ways. [82:19] But what it felt like to me was this [82:21] moment when when I was simultaneously [82:24] beginning to ask questions like, wait a [82:26] second, we believe this about, you know, [82:29] how women are supposed to be in the [82:31] church and those kind were we right [82:33] about, you know, were we wrong about [82:34] that? Were we wrong? So it was this list [82:36] of me going down and going, "Well, did [82:38] we get this wrong as well?" You know, so [82:40] I'm still within the the Christian [82:42] structure asking these questions, [82:44] deconstructing, taking things out and [82:46] and examining them. And then when it [82:48] came to the the issue of politics, it [82:52] felt like, wait a second, we're we're [82:54] endorsing this guy who is so blatantly, [82:57] you know, violates all these things that [82:59] in the past we condemned this past [83:01] candidate for doing these things, but [83:02] now we're we're giving this person a [83:04] pass. So, it felt like this moment of of [83:08] major hypocrisy. [83:10] Um, and it added to this sense of I [83:13] don't I feel it's easier to just walk [83:16] away from this. It's easier to step back [83:18] because a lot of the people that I and I [83:20] I I love these people. You know, I've [83:21] got so many friends that are Trump [83:23] supporters and, you know, we disagree [83:25] politically and I have deep affection [83:27] for them, but it was an isolating moment [83:32] that added to the the isolation that was [83:34] happening to me internally. [83:36] >> In your post, you you described that [83:38] season as one of overcorrection. [83:42] >> Unpack that for me. What does that mean? [83:47] Well, I look back now and I see that I [83:52] just carried my fundamentalist black and [83:56] white thinking with me onto a new team, [84:00] >> you know. Um, and so there was this [84:04] mindset of, you know, the kind of the [84:07] fundamentalist approach to a lot of [84:08] things. It's very fear- driven and it's [84:10] very who's in and who's out. if this [84:12] person is wrong doctrinally [84:15] um and he hangs out with Joe, well don't [84:18] hang out with Joe because he hangs, you [84:21] know. So that's like the don't have [84:23] these books on the bookshelf, that kind [84:24] of a thing. That's how that's how we [84:26] operated as a church. And so when I [84:29] stepped out of that and kind of stepped [84:31] into, you know, whatever you want to [84:34] call it, exangelical deconstruction [84:36] community, whatever, I brought that same [84:38] zeal. Who are the good guys? Who are the [84:40] bad guys? you know, the hats have [84:42] switched. Um, and and I also think I [84:46] think I was being manipulated by the [84:48] algorithms as I'm still being [84:49] manipulated by the algorithms. There's [84:51] just this sense of like, well, this [84:53] person pops up and they're saying this, [84:55] well, if that issue is identified with, [84:59] you know, MAGA, Trump, whatever, then [85:02] obviously it's wrong. And I definitely [85:04] am opposed to it just because of the [85:07] association. That's a very [85:08] fundamentalist approach. You know, a [85:10] more nuanced approach is saying, "Well, [85:11] I'm going to I'm going to examine this [85:13] issue and this topic in light of its own [85:16] merits and do some hard thinking and [85:18] really sort through this and not just [85:21] have this emotional reaction because [85:23] it's identified by whoever as as [85:26] belonging to one one party or one side [85:28] or whatever." So, I think that's where [85:30] the overreaction came into play for me. [85:34] And I I started to realize that I was [85:36] having that same creeping feeling of [85:39] fear of getting things right. You know, [85:42] when I when I was a pastor, I had that [85:44] all the time. It was like, I I I got to [85:47] preach things right. I need to make sure [85:49] that I'm reading the right theologians. [85:51] I need to, you know, I need to have all [85:53] my my eyes dotted and my tees crossed. [85:57] And I started to have that same fear [86:00] when it came to am I speaking out on the [86:02] am I taking the right stand? Am I [86:05] speaking if I don't say something about [86:07] whatever you know political social topic [86:11] I start to feel the heat of ooh [86:13] someone's going to be like why aren't [86:14] you talking about this? Why aren't you [86:16] saying something? So that started to to [86:19] kind of come to light and I realized [86:20] gosh I've got the same like fear [86:22] response that I used to have in the [86:25] conservative church. and and I, you [86:28] know, that was a that was a wakeup call [86:30] that I I wasn't quite sure what to do [86:32] with. All right, that was the first half [86:34] of my conversation with Joshua Harris, [86:36] but there was just too much to stuff [86:38] into just this episode. So, the second [86:40] half of the interview is posted on Holy [86:42] Post Plus. If you're already a [86:44] subscriber, you can get that on Holy [86:46] Post Plus or in your podcast app if [86:48] you've linked Holyost Plus to your [86:50] podcast feed. If you're not yet a [86:52] subscriber, learn how to sign up at [86:54] holyost.com. [86:56] Hey everyone, if you liked this video, [86:58] like and subscribe so that you can see [87:00] more videos and other people can find [87:02] more thoughtful Christian content.  ## 📺 Video ![](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aflm8zDTaik) --- # 📝 Full Notes (Deep-Read Analysis) # 🏷️ Title: Mistaking Certainty for Maturity with Joshua Harris ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Interview Joshua Harris about journey from purity culture to deconstruction — upcoming feature #interview - [H2] Explore second half of interview on Holy Post Plus — extended content #premium - [H3] Examine Christian response to immigration in Springfield — community action #social-justice ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [Holy Post Plus](https://holypost.com) - [Full Interview with Joshua Harris](https://holypost.com) ## 📝 Summary - Holy Post episode featuring upcoming interview with Joshua Harris, author of "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" - Harris has since apologized for the book, left ministry and Christianity, and is now curious about Jesus again - Episode covers current events including Springfield, Ohio churches protecting Haitian immigrants - Discussion of how Trump administration embraces pagan values while progressive left wants Christian ethics without Christian beliefs - Analysis of how both sides co-opt Christianity for political ends rather than submitting to Christ's actual teachings ## 📖 Main Content This episode introduces an upcoming interview with Joshua Harris, who became the face of evangelical purity culture in the 1990s with his influential book "I Kissed Dating Goodbye." Harris has since undergone a dramatic spiritual journey - apologizing for his book's harmful effects, leaving pastoral ministry, divorcing, and publicly announcing he was no longer a Christian. The episode teases that he's now moving toward being "curious about Jesus" again. The hosts also discuss several current events through a Christian lens, including how churches in Springfield, Ohio organized to protect Haitian immigrants from deportation, and analysis of how both political sides are misappropriating Christianity - the right embracing pagan power while claiming Christian identity, and the left wanting Christian social outcomes without Christian theological foundations. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/Aflm8zDTaik?t=0) — [H1] Introduction to Joshua Harris Interview - Key idea: Harris went from purity culture champion to Christian deconstructor - Evidence: "30 years ago, Joshua Harris became the cheerleader for purity culture with his book I Kiss Dating Goodbye. Since then, he's apologized for the book, exited ministry, and his marriage, and announced he's no longer a Christian" #### ⏱️ [05:30](https://youtu.be/Aflm8zDTaik?t=330) — [H2] Springfield Churches Protect Immigrants - Key idea: Over 1,000 people gathered for worship service supporting Haitian immigrants - Evidence: "Roughly 20 Springfield congregations have collaborated to establish safe communication networks and to lay the groundwork for emergency food distribution and child care" #### ⏱️ [12:15](https://youtu.be/Aflm8zDTaik?t=735) — [H3] Judge Blocks TPS Cancellation - Key idea: Federal judge criticized administration's hostility toward non-white immigrants - Evidence: "Ray wrote that it is likely that Gnome pre-ordained her termination decision because of hostility to non-white immigrants" #### ⏱️ [18:45](https://youtu.be/Aflm8zDTaik?t=1125) — [H2] Trump Administration Embraces Pagan Values - Key idea: Steven Miller explicitly advocates might-makes-right philosophy - Evidence: "We live in a world in which you can talk all you want about international nicities and everything else, but we live in the real world, Jake, that is governed by strength, that is governed by force, that is governed by power" #### ⏱️ [25:20](https://youtu.be/Aflm8zDTaik?t=1520) — [H3] Christianity's Historical Impact on Morality - Key idea: Christian values became so embedded in Western thought we forget their origins - Evidence: "The moral instinct is so ubiquitous today that we barely recognize it as Judeo-Christian or even as religious" #### ⏱️ [32:10](https://youtu.be/Aflm8zDTaik?t=1930) — [H2] Progressive Left Wants Christian Ethics Without Faith - Key idea: Trevor Noah observes that declining religion on left limits imagination - Evidence: "Republicans have a limitless imagination. Democrats are constructing an ever-lowering ceiling of possibility... It's because of the decline of religion on the left" #### ⏱️ [38:45](https://youtu.be/Aflm8zDTaik?t=2325) — [H3] Faith Enables Transformative Vision - Key idea: Religious traditions teach hope that survives disappointment - Evidence: "Hope that survives disappointment... It's like MLK's beloved community, which wasn't utopian fantasy. It was a realistic, achievable goal grounded in black church theology" #### ⏱️ [45:30](https://youtu.be/Aflm8zDTaik?t=2730) — [H2] Both Sides Co-opt Christianity Improperly - Key idea: Right wants Christian identity with pagan tactics, left wants Christian outcomes without Christian beliefs - Evidence: "People are drawn to Jesus for all kinds of different reasons... Our job is to keep inviting them in deeper" #### ⏱️ [47:45](https://youtu.be/Aflm8zDTaik?t=2865) — [H3] The Problem of Religious Language Without Belief - Key idea: Christian ethics require Christian theological foundations to sustain - Evidence: "You can't drain the language of the actual story and belief and metaphysics and think that it will work as well" ## 📚 References - [Holy Post Plus Subscription](https://holypost.com) - [Rocket Money](https://rocketmoney.com/holypost) - [Poncho Outdoors](https://ponchooutdoors.com/holypost) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Joshua Harris transformed from purity culture champion to someone who left Christianity entirely, and is now becoming curious about Jesus again - Churches in Springfield, Ohio demonstrated practical Christian love by organizing to protect Haitian immigrants from deportation - The current political moment reveals both sides misusing Christianity - the right claiming Christian identity while embracing pagan power tactics, and the left wanting Christian social outcomes without accepting Christian theological foundations ## 📰 Newsletter This episode offers a fascinating preview of an upcoming interview with Joshua Harris, whose spiritual journey from evangelical celebrity to post-Christian and potentially back toward faith mirrors many people's complex relationship with Christianity today. The discussion of Springfield churches protecting immigrants shows Christianity at its best - practical love for vulnerable neighbors regardless of political cost. The analysis of how both political sides misappropriate Christian values is particularly insightful for anyone trying to navigate faith in a polarized culture. Whether you're questioning faith like Harris or trying to live it authentically, this episode offers wisdom about the difference between using Christianity for other ends versus submitting to Christ himself. Resources: [Holy Post Plus](https://holypost.com), [Springfield Church Response](https://springfieldchurches.org), [Immigration Resources](https://immigrationlegal.org) ## ✅ Action Items #### Community - Learn from Springfield churches' coordinated response to protect vulnerable immigrants - Develop interfaith networks for emergency response and community care - Create safe communication systems for at-risk community members #### WordPress - Document best practices for community organizing through digital platforms - Support immigrant-serving organizations with pro-bono website development - Create resources for churches using WordPress for social justice coordination #### FAIR - Technical independence: Ensure platforms can't be weaponized against vulnerable communities - Policies: Support transparent governance that protects marginalized voices - Funding: Prioritize grants for organizations serving at-risk populations ## 🧪 Hypotheses - People drawn to Christian ethics without Christian theology will find their values unsustainable under pressure - The Trump administration's explicit embrace of pagan values will create space for authentic Christian witness - Progressive movements that rediscover religious foundations will be more resilient than purely secular efforts - Joshua Harris's journey represents a broader pattern of post-evangelical spiritual seeking ### 📊 Methodology - Track correlation between religious commitment and sustained social justice activism - Survey progressive organizations about their relationship with religious traditions - Interview other prominent Christian deconstruction/reconstruction stories - Analyze political rhetoric for explicitly pagan versus Christian value frameworks ### ❓ Questions - How can churches better prepare for protecting vulnerable community members? - What would authentic Christian political engagement look like beyond left/right categories? - How do we invite people toward Christianity without co-opting their existing interests? ### 🔮 Future Research - Long-term outcomes of purity culture survivors like Harris - Effectiveness of interfaith responses to immigration enforcement - Sustainability of progressive movements with and without religious grounding ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Christians must choose between authentic discipleship and political utility - Policy: Immigration policies test whether Christian values influence governance - Security: Vulnerable communities need coordinated protection networks - Education: Understanding Christianity's foundational role in Western ethics - Funding: Supporting organizations that demonstrate practical Christian love ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: Grade 12 #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Episode preview graphics, social media clips - Improve: Infographic showing Harris's spiritual journey timeline #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full podcast episode with quality audio - Improve: Key quote compilation, discussion guide audio #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Rich discussion, theological terminology explained - Improve: Glossary of terms, comparative analysis charts #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Real-world examples like Springfield church response - Improve: Action steps for community organizing, practical guides #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Clear argument structure, cause-effect relationships - Improve: Decision tree for authentic Christian political engagement #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Panel discussion format, community examples - Improve: Discussion questions, book club guides for groups #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Individual reflection prompts implicit in content - Improve: Journaling questions about personal faith journey #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Immigration as human ecosystem issue - Improve: Connections to creation care, environmental stewardship ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Good heading structure, episode descriptions - Improve: Transcript with speaker identification, time markers #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard podcast player controls - Improve: Skip-to-content options, chapter navigation #### Contrast and readability - Present: Adequate contrast on podcast platforms - Improve: High-contrast mode for show notes #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Responsive design on most platforms - Improve: Ensure 200% zoom compatibility across all content #### Media and captions - Present: Audio content with show notes - Improve: Full episode transcripts, key quote captions #### Forms and interactions - Present: Standard subscription forms - Improve: Error handling for newsletter signup ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Discussion of Haitian immigrant experience - Improve: More diverse guest perspectives, international examples #### Inclusive language - Present: Respectful discussion of different faith positions - Improve: Avoid insider Christian terminology without explanation #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Clear episode structure, consistent format - Improve: Episode summaries, content warnings for sensitive topics #### Representation - Present: Varied viewpoints on faith and politics - Improve: More diverse voices, especially from affected communities #### Psychological safety - Present: Respectful treatment of Harris's difficult journey - Improve: Resources for listeners experiencing faith deconstruction ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Christian values require Christian foundations for sustainability - Inductive strength: Springfield churches demonstrate practical Christian love - Causal reasoning: Loss of religious grounding leads to political imagination limits - Analogical strength: Harris's journey mirrors broader evangelical patterns #### Fallacies - False dichotomy: Slight tendency to present only "authentic Christianity" vs "co-opted Christianity" - Ad hominem: Minimal - focuses on ideas rather than personal attacks #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Thoughtful, analytical, compassionate toward those questioning faith ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No significant denial patterns observed - Attack: No attacks on accusers present - Reverse victim/offender: Not applicable to this content - Emotional cues and rhetoric: Empathetic toward spiritual struggle, critical of political co-optation ## 🎯 Conclusion This episode masterfully demonstrates how to engage complex spiritual and political questions with both intellectual rigor and pastoral compassion. The upcoming Harris interview promises to illuminate the difficult but potentially redemptive process of moving from certainty through deconstruction toward authentic faith. Meanwhile, the Springfield churches model what practical Christian love looks like when communities are under threat - organized, sacrificial, and effective action rooted in gospel values rather than political calculation. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad ### [H1] Churches organize coordinated immigrant protection > [!quote] [708: Mistaking Certainty for Maturity with Joshua Harris](https://youtu.be/Aflm8zDTaik) by Phil Visher via Holy Post Podcast. Published 2025. Accessed 2025-01-17. > "Roughly 20 Springfield congregations have collaborated to establish safe communication networks and to lay the groundwork for emergency food distribution and child care." Demonstrates practical Christian response to vulnerable community members under government threat. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/Aflm8zDTaik?t=330#H1) #xref #community-organizing ID:rw_001 ### [H2] Progressive left wants Christian ethics without Christian foundations > [!quote] [708: Mistaking Certainty for Maturity with Joshua Harris](https://youtu.be/Aflm8zDTaik) > "It's because of the decline of religion on the left... Republicans have a limitless imagination. Democrats are constructing an ever-lowering ceiling of possibility." Trevor Noah identifies religious decline as limiting progressive political imagination. [view highlight](https://youtu.be/Aflm8zDTaik?t=1930#H2) #xref #political-theology ID:rw_002 --- ### 🔖 Atomic Split Pad (Zettel Candidates) #### [Z1] Christian values require Christian theological foundations - Without underlying metaphysics, ethical systems become unsustainable under pressure - Pointer to 47:45 discussion of religious language vs belief - Links: [[Christian-Ethics]] [[Political-Theology]] #### [Z2] Authentic Christianity cannot be co-opted for other ends - Both political sides attempt to use Christianity for non-Christian goals - Pointer to 45:30 analysis of left/right appropriation - Links: [[Discipleship]] [[Political-Engagement]] --- ### ✏️ Fleeting Queue - [F1] Listen to full Joshua Harris interview on Holy Post Plus — spiritual journey analysis #fleeting #interview - [F2] Research Springfield church organizing methods — community protection models #fleeting #activism - [F3] Explore Trevor Noah's religious commentary — secular recognition of faith value #fleeting #culture --- # 📄 Full Transcript *Auto-generated from YouTube captions · timestamps roughly every 30 seconds · [watch on YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aflm8zDTaik)* **[00:00]** Welcome to the Holy Post. 30 years ago, Joshua Harris became the cheerleader for purity culture with his book I Kiss Dating Goodbye. Since then, he's apologized for the book, exited ministry, and his marriage, and announced he's no longer a Christian. Today, he talks to me about his journey from fundamentalism to deconstructionism, and his move back toward being curious about Jesus. Also this week, how the Trump administration is making paganism great again. Why secular progressives are rediscovering the benefits of **[00:30]** religion. And how Christians in Springfield, Ohio have organized to protect Haitian immigrants from deportation. Plus, cannibal jellyfish are taking over Venice. And Phil has seen the rap light. A quick note before we jump in. My conversation with Joshua Harris this week was close to an hour long. That's way more than we could fit into just this episode. So, the first 30 minutes are here, but we've posted the other half of the interview on Holy Post Plus. If you're not yet a Holy Post Plus subscriber, you can learn how to sign up by going to holyost.com. **[01:02]** Of course, you'll get access to my full interview with Joshua Harris along with everything else we're creating. Shows like Getting Schooled by Caitlyn Chess, 66 verses that explain the Bible with Esau Macaulay, full episodes of the Sky Pod every Friday, bonus interviews, the Holy Post book club, behindthe-scenes content, games, resources, and merchandise. The very best of what we produce here at Holy Post Media is all there for you when you sign up for Holy Post Plus. And by becoming a subscriber, you'll be helping us be able to make even more faithful pro- neighborh. **[01:34]** So go to holyost.com today to sign up. Here is episode 708. Hey there. Welcome to the Holy Post podcast. I'm Phil Viser. I'm here with Caitlyn Schess. Hi Caitlyn. >> Hi Phil. >> And Sky Jatani. Hello. Hi Sky. So Sky and I are discussing whether we should both color our beards. >> Oh my gosh. [laughter] >> Just dye them jet black. Would we look more macho? >> Maybe I should dye it green for St. Patrick's Day. >> Oh yeah, you could be like the Chicago River. The Chicago River >> today >> flowing pink for Valentine's Day. **[02:06]** >> No, Valentine's Day is when we're recording. I just learned about Valentine's Day cuz I missed Parks and Wreck and I guess that's a thing. And now I'm >> I wished Phil a happy Valentine's Day and he just got grumpy with me. >> I know. I just got confused. I was not grumpy. Confusing. >> Why are you telling people that I get grumpy with you? Like just on a dime. >> No, you don't. You don't. >> Just I just looked at him sideways and then he got grumpy with me. How long has Valentine's Day been a thing? >> Since Parks and Rex. So like I mean probably 10 years, 15 years >> cuz I just learned about I learned about **[02:38]** it this year. I think >> I learned about it today. >> I knew about it before today. >> So it's Yeah. 10 plus years cuz Parks and Wreck ended in 2015. >> Okay. All right. Valentine's Day. Valentine's Day. >> What would be the male equivalent? >> You don't get that. >> Uh, bro. It's the day before. What is it? >> It's the day. Well, could be. It's the day after Valentine's when we get together to lament how poorly we did it. >> Ah. Oh, >> yeah. What did you mess up? I forgot the card. I I thought I had it, but then it **[03:09]** was gone. Or I you know, like my first my first Valentine's Day was a disaster of my married life. >> Oh. because it was less than 2 weeks after our wedding. >> Oh, that's tough. >> And it didn't occur to me that we needed to >> also do Valentine's Day. >> Also do Valentine. >> Yeah, that's fair. >> Our wedding is 2 weeks after Valentine's Day, our anniversary. So interesting. Yes. So I learned I learned on that blessed occasion, just two weeks after our wedding, how important special **[03:39]** occasions are to my wife. A lesson I never forgot. Even though I forgot a lot more special occasions, I >> did you learn the lesson? I was not I don't think that's how lessons work. >> I was no longer surprised at her reaction. I said, "Oh, yes. There you go." And now it's time for the theme song. >> What's the news [music] that you like the most? Who's your favorite podcast host? If it's breakfast, [music] get your toast. It's Sky, Caitlyn, and the Holy [singing] **[04:10]** Post. Sky, Phil, Caitlyn, and the Holy Post >> and sometimes other [clears throat] people. >> The Holy Post is sponsored by Rocket Money. [music] I was in a coffee shop talking to a friend and the topic of finances came up. I'm using Rocket Money to track my finances, they said. And I said, "I use Rocket Money, too." [music] And they said, "I know. I use it because I heard about it on your podcast." We had a little Rocket Money fan club right there over our lattes. The expense of which of course was duly noted by our Rocket Money accounts. I have to know **[04:41]** where my money is going and Rocket Money has made that easy. Rocket Money [music] is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. Rocket Money has saved users more than $2.5 billion, including over 880 million in cancelled subscriptions alone. Their 10 million members save up to $740 a year when they use all of the app's premium features. Save money by cancelling your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial **[05:12]** goals faster with RocketMoney. [music] Go to rocketmoney.com/holypost today. That's rocketmoney.com/holypost. Rocketmoney.com/holyost. 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So go to **[06:14]** ponchooutdoors.com/holyost and enter your email for $10 off your first order. That's [music] p o nc h ooutdoors.com/holyost for $10 off and free shipping. You'll love their shirts. I promise. And thanks to Poncho for sponsoring this episode. I don't know if you noticed uh but you'll probably notice going forward that our stories are running very tight, very like a like a like rail cars on the line. They just go right down the line. **[06:45]** And it's because our producer, Mike, hi Mike. Hi, Phil. Um, put in a little light and it's the light is a UFO beaming up a cat. Why? I have no idea. >> It's cute. >> When he feels like we're running along now, he turns on the little UFO cat light and then I say, "Uhoh, I'm in trouble with Mike. I better wrap this up. >> Someone needs to bring some order here." >> It's the universal symbol for wrap it up. >> Yeah. Wrap it up. >> Wrap it up. >> Or suck it up cuz that's where the cat's **[07:16]** going, right? >> Yeah. Tractor beams. Do tractor beams they tra Is that a sucking thing or is it attracting or what? What do tractor beams do? >> I think so. >> And how do they work? What's the science? >> What? >> I think they're more like magnets. >> Magnets. Yeah. [laughter] >> And speaking of >> Do I just eliminated just Oh. Oh. Uh, Caitlyn doesn't even know what a tractor beam is. >> Okay. I this whole time thought >> Uhoh. [gasps] >> I thought a tractor beam was the beam of light from a tractor. Oh. [laughter] **[07:48]** So I was like, "What are you talking about? They just are light." >> You know what's so sad? >> So cute. >> She's the most educated person in this room. [laughter] >> It's just this. But wait, nowadays we go deep, but not wide. >> This is >> Yeah, >> exactly what Mark Twain said. >> Oh, stop. >> You know what I'm about to quote. An expert is somebody who knows more and more about less and less. >> Yes, that's true. And it turns out I don't know anything about >> tractor. See, I think I'm the opposite of an expert because as I'm getting **[08:19]** older, I'm just knowing less and less about more and more. [laughter] >> You know, I'm going even shallower in more areas. >> You're a perzy. >> The opposite. >> Expert backwards. Is that what that was? I think so. That was brilliant. Okay. Uh Mike. >> Um yeah. >> Yeah. He's turning on the cat light again. We're going to move on. >> Um animal news. We haven't done animal news in a while because it's been all Trump all the time and we're all sick. We're all sick to death of it. We're sick to death of it. So, but there's other terrible things happening in the **[08:50]** world besides what's happening in America. Cannibal jellyfish are taking over Venice's lagoons. >> Did you hear about this? >> In Venice, Italy. >> Yeah, Venice is being um it's probably going to be destroyed by cannibal jellyfish. Probably going to be destroyed >> if it's not flooded first. Well, they just destroy because when it's flooded, it's like shark NATO. You have just the jellyfish flying everywhere in your bedrooms, in your houses. Hordes of cannibalistic jellyfish are spreading through Venice's famed lagoon and wreaking havoc on local fisheries, **[09:22]** usually found in the Western Atlantic. Western Atlantic is not close to Venice. Uh, the warty comb jellyfish. And I don't know if warty is part of the name or just an adjective. It's being used to insult the comb jellyfish. The warty comb jelly jellyfish, also known as the sea walnut. >> Wow. >> Isn't a walnut kind of the opposite of a jellyfish? That >> was my nickname in high school. Get over here. Yes. Sea walnut, is now thriving in the Adriatic Sea. It's not supposed to be there. >> It's not supposed to be there. >> It hitch a ride on a ship or something. **[09:52]** >> It hitched a ride on a ship or something. Now, it's not a true jellyfish, but it's a comb jellyfish, which is in a different film. Did you Why are you uh You look like you're shocked. What did you just learn? >> Nothing. >> Something that you don't want me to mention. >> Yep. Yep. [laughter] I figured scientists believe the species came to the Adriatic accidentally in the ballasted waters of cargo ships, which is how we spread zebra muscles to the Great Lakes, which are messing up the Great Lakes, among other things. >> A sometimes cannibal, it will eat it. Has [laughter] that ever been said about **[10:22]** you? >> Sometimes. Sometimes cannibal only when necessary. >> It's not like Not like all the time. >> Not for fun. >> Not like all the time, but just special occasions like uh Valentine's Day. A sometimes cannibal. It will eat its own young when food is scarce. Now, I have a question about that. Jellyfish don't have brains. Does it even know it's eating its own young? Does it know what it's eating? >> Can you be a cannibal >> without a brain? Aren't you then a zombie? >> I think you can be an accidental cannibal. >> Accident. It doesn't say that. It says sometimes cannibal, not accidental **[10:53]** cannibal. >> Okay, >> I'm curious. Scientists, >> this is dark. >> I know we have a lot of scientists that listen to the show regularly. right in. Tell us if a jellyfish that eats its young knows that it's doing it. That's my question. This bizarre creature has a temporary anus that appears only when it needs to expel waste, then vanishes again. We've talked about this. >> I love the fact that this creature has multiple things that are just temporary. >> Like cannibalism. >> Cannibalism. Anus. **[11:24]** >> Yeah. Uhhuh. And being in Venice. Yeah. where [laughter] it's not supposed to be, but I don't think they're going to be able to get rid of. Now, we talked we did a story. I don't know if it was about this jellyfish, but it was about something. But they they referred to it as a transient anus. >> So, we had a whole episode about the transient anus, which which many people decided would be a fantastic name for a rock band >> or or a uh itinerate preacher. >> Oh my god. [laughter] >> Who isn't very good. >> Oh. Um, it is also one of the world's **[11:56]** top invasive species and is causing chaos. Chaos, I tell you, for the Italian city's fragile lagoon ecosystem. So, we're not It's not funny anymore. We're not This isn't funny. We're not laughing. >> I'm not laughing. >> Causing chaos for Venice's fragile lagoon ecosystem. >> Have they made it into a delicacy yet? Have they cooked this thing up? >> Oh, interesting. >> Oh, yeah. That's I don't know. Probably not. Do Is anyone eat jellyfish? Someone has to eat. >> I don't think they're good eating. jellyfish. >> These don't sting. They're comb jellyfish, not jelly. **[12:27]** >> Dehydrated and pickled jellyfish is considered a delicacy in some countries. >> Okay, there you go. Well, we'll get to work. >> So, they you should consider that V. >> Do we have a department, Mike? Do we have a department of food at Holy Post that could work on like recipes? >> We're attached to a restaurant. >> I will get right on that. There's a kitchen right over there. There's a kitchen right over there. The species devours plankton, fish eggs, and fish larvae, stripping the lagoon of the foundations of its food web. That's bad. That's bad. The gelatinous creatures are clogging up fishing nets. At the same **[12:59]** time, fish stocks are crashing because fish stocks are down. [laughter] Short fish stocks are crashing because the comb jellies are demolishing most of their fish eggs and larvae. Well, that's terrible. If it isn't one thing, it's another. If it isn't, your country is moving in a slightly authoritarian direction. It's your lagoons are being overrun with uh sea walnuts. Sea walnuts. **[13:30]** They they don't look like >> That's what I said. That's the opposite of a jellyfish. >> Yeah, they're like clear. >> Yeah, that's very strange. >> I don't know why they would call them. >> Maybe when they dry them >> and pickle them, they look more like walnuts. I don't Yeah, maybe when they dry them and pickle them, they look [laughter] more Yeah, that's a good We'll look into that. Oh, look. The the cat is telling me it's [laughter] >> kind of looks like a jellyfish. >> Phil, it kind of defeats the purpose of a rap light when you communicate to the audience. >> Guess what? It's [laughter] time to **[14:01]** move. >> Goodness. >> You should just put a little shocker into a seat. No, it should be there should be an audible sound like a and then we know that people can hear so they know when we've run out of time. >> What about the pres like the presidential debates where you get the green, yellow, red light? >> That'd be good. >> Or that'd be that'd be fantastic. Um I had another story that I was going to talk about. Oh, here it is. I forgot to open it up. Now it's open. >> Let's go to Springfield, Illinois. Sorry, Springfield, Ohio. >> Not Springfield, Illinois. Which one are the Simpsons in? Uh yeah, that was a **[14:33]** contest once to pick which Springfield because there's so many Springfields. And what did they decide on? Was it Springfield, Massachusetts or I forget more than a thousand people descended Monday on a special church service in Springfield, Ohio to sing and pray and wave signs on the day before deportation protections were set to expire for more than 300,000 Haitian immigrants across the United States. If you don't remember Springfield, Ohio, it was the place with the huge recent influx of Haitian immigrants and the rumor that they were **[15:04]** stealing and eating pets that >> which came from the presidential debate in 2024. >> Well, it was it was magnified. >> Yes, that's where it kind of reached national attention. This central Ohio took an improbable leading role in America's immigration debate in 2024 after then presidential candidate Donald Trump and his running mate JD Vance repeated false claims that Haitian immigrants in Springfield were stealing and eating pets. The ensuing media frenzy and traumas like dozens of bomb threats tore the community apart. Before the mail, the city had attracted an **[15:35]** estimated 15,000 Haitian immigrants. Most of them had temporary protected status. the legal definition definition designation granted by the US government. The Trump administration ended or attempted to end TPS for more than a million immigrants from different countries last year. And the speculation is that ending TPS for so many people was a way to make more illegal immigrants that you knew where they were, >> right? >> So you could hit deportation quotas. So, **[16:06]** just to make sure we clearly communicate what's happened here, these are people the United States allowed in knowingly. >> They did not sneak into this country. They came in knowingly to our government's knowledge. They had credible [clears throat] credible reasons to seek asylum. I don't know why I got some in my throat. >> Yeah. They Yeah. And they weren't they weren't actually they're not asylum seekers, >> right? >> They are from countries where it is unsafe to return, >> right? the state of the country makes it and that is very much the case with Haiti over the last few years. It is not **[16:37]** a safe place to be. >> Right? So according to US law and with the US government's knowledge, they come to the country and they get protected status. All of this completely legal >> so that they can get jobs and they can get homes and they can work here and set their lives up here. And now the Trump administration goes, "Just kidding and we want to deport you." >> But this is a good news story. um sky. This is a story that I would describe as Christians behaving Christianly. Churches and other faith groups in Springfield have spent months preparing **[17:07]** for the day immigration and customs enforcement agents might amass in their city. They've hosted trainings on constitutional rights and have helped hundreds of immigrant residents get passports and birth certificates. They've passed out orange whistles like those uh that became the soundtrack of Minnesota's anti-ICE protests. Roughly 20 Springfield congregations have collaborated to establish safe communication networks and to lay the groundwork for emergency food distribution and child care. And just recently on a Monday, all those preparations culminated in a worship **[17:37]** service with more than a thousand people on the day their protected status was supposed to expire. But a judge came through last minute in an unvarnished 83page opinion that opened with a quote from George Washington. Judge Ray criticized the government for failing to demonstrate that Haitian TPS holders pose any public harm. Uh she questioned how Christy Gnome could conclude that Haiti is safe for return, a legal condition for the cancellation of TPS when other federal agencies warn that **[18:08]** Haiti is unsafe for travel for any reason. >> It's kind of talking out both sides of your mouth, >> unless you're Haitian and then we just don't care. >> It's not that it's safe for you, it's just that we just don't care. Ray wrote that it is likely that Gnome pre-ordained her termination decision because of hostility to non-white immigrants. Oh, that's in the judge's ruling. We have declared the head of Homeland Security hostile to non-white immigrants. So, um, ICE raids are suspended and **[18:42]** temporary protection status is sustained for the time being and a bunch of pastors were part of putting together the effort uh to help them. So, this good news. >> It is good news. Is there any response from the administration? Are they appealing this? Yeah. >> Appeal. We want to we want to get rid of they the judge. It was interesting in the article. the judge in the hearing um got the the administration's represent lawyers to acknowledge that they believed Christy Gnome could cancel **[19:14]** this protected status just for the reason that she didn't like vanilla ice cream for example like any reason and they acknowledge yes if she she could just say I don't like vanilla ice cream and you no longer have protected status that was the government's position >> it's kind of the unitary executive argument that the executive It's kind of the I can do whatever the heck I want argument and what are you going to do about it argument, >> right? So if the Secretary of Homeland Security does this with the consent of the president, no one can stop her. **[19:44]** That's their argument. >> Yeah. >> Uh yeah, but there are actually rules about this. There's actually you can't cancel temporary protected status if the conditions on the ground in the country in question have not changed. Unless you want to and you say try to stop me. >> Does the article speculate as this climbs the to an appellet court >> are their favor judges more favorable to DHS or Trump? >> Very unlikely. Very unlikely. I was listening to a a uh advisory opinions **[20:14]** podcast and they were with David French and Sarah Isker and they were talking about uh the damage being done to the justice department because judges are no longer granting them the assumption what was it the the the presumption of normaly >> I think the the assumption that um because it's the government presenting a case we assume assume they're telling the truth >> and we assume they're following the law **[20:46]** and that historically the justice department has had that assumption that if they were bringing case that they were assumed to be following the law >> or at least competent >> and not lying and more and more judges are saying actually that's no longer the case. We can no longer assume a representative of this administration is coming before the court not lying. And the question was how long even after Trump, how long does it take to restore confidence or have we **[21:20]** now said more or less that it's up to whatever president whoever gets elected? Because if you know if if 70% of the country or 60% of the country supports a president um who doesn't respect normal procedures or telling the truth in court, it says more about the country than it does just about >> I don't know about that. >> So here I I listened to a a podcast recently with Chuck Todd and Rahm Emanuel. >> Oh >> Chuck Todd used to be with NBC News. **[21:50]** Rahm Emanuel used to be the mayor of Chicago. >> Chuck and Todd. the Chuck and Todd show, >> something like that. Anyway, they were both talking about the upcoming midterm elections and expressing a confidence that the American people will do what's right and they will be the final check on these things and they're going to and and they kept repeating this and it sounded kind of very campaigny like we trust the people and the people know what's best. I mean, and to a degree I'm like, yeah, except >> you're assuming that those people have been properly informed of what's actually going on. So, I I would say I **[22:21]** don't think most Americans are fine with the Justice Department lying and not doing so. But I don't think a lot of Americans know that's what's happening because it's not being >> or would believe it. And and I'll give you one example. This this week, um >> Pam Bondi, head of the Justice Department, testified before Congress about the Epstein stuff and it was a circus. Oh my gosh, what it was. It was grotesque on so many levels. And I was watching clips of what had unfolded that day. And for my own amusement, I clicked over to Fox Newsw.com and scrolled through the entire Fox News website and **[22:53]** there was not a single thing about Pam Bondi and the hearings before Congress. [snorts] >> So if you're marinating at Fox News, you've had no idea this has happened. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> So I don't think most Americans are happy about the Trump administration lying or the Justice Department. I don't think a lot of them know this is going on because the media is not telling them. >> Two stories. I got two stories, good news, good news stories about and this is they're only good news if I have to spin them. Okay, I'm spinning them because you could say, "Oh, that's bad news that that's happening." But I think **[23:24]** No, no, it's good news. >> Silver lining, huh? >> Because of who's noticing that it's happening. I'm seeing more um people I would describe as progressive secular saying, "Hey, we're really moving away from our Christian roots and this is probably not a good thing." So, that's interesting because we have people who are saying, "We're reclaiming Christianity. We're putting Christianity back in its rightful place." We have more and more people saying, "Uh, I don't think that's Christianity, at **[23:56]** least historically, as we've practiced it." And I think more and more we're missing it now that it's leaving. We we want it back. So this is a piece by uh Leighton Woodhouse written in New York Times with the fun title Donald Trump pagan king and he talks about there's been a lot of talk about Mark Carney, the prime minister of Canada and the speech he gave at DVOS um where he described the world the president >> Davos. >> Oh yeah, Davos. >> Davos is the family. Devos is the **[24:27]** families in Grand Rapids. Davos >> Davos, >> not DVOS, >> right? >> Life is so complicated. [snorts] >> Valentine's Day. I learn to [laughter] remember that now. Prime Minister Mark Carney of Canada recently described the world that President Trump is dragging us into with this apherism. The strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must. The quote comes from a guy whose name I will not even try to >> Thusidities. That's good. Thusidity. >> Oh, wait. It wasn't you saying it. It was [laughter] **[24:58]** >> No, no, that was me. That was me. Yeah. Uh, from Thusidity's fictionalized account of a negotiation between Athens and the rulers of the island of Melos, Milos, Milos in the Pelpeneisian War. I've often war. >> I have no idea what it was, >> but it involved Pelpeneisia. >> Yeah. and there was some fighting. The dialogue is famous for its stark portrayal of the dictates of political **[25:29]** realism. The world is not guided by ideals and values. It demonstrates it is brokered only by power. Uh the Trump administration has adopted this philosophy as its own. Steven Miller said recently in an interview with Jake Tapper, "We live in a world in which have to say it more like he says it. We live in a world in which you can talk all you want about international nicities and everything else, but we live in a world in the real world, Jake, that is governed by strength, that is governed by force, that is governed by power. The more he talks, the louder he gets. I don't know if you ever noticed **[25:59]** that. >> I think his his forehead gets bigger, too. >> Yeah. It just it grows until eventually it'll pop and then the real power inside him will come out and devour us all. >> And you can quote me on that. But the nicities that Mr. Miller disparages aren't just some naive fantasy. They are the values of Christianity. The faith the Christian ad the faith the Trump administration purports to defend and uphold. Um after defeating Milos Melos Milos in a siege Athens slaughtered the **[26:29]** island's men and enslaved its women and children. Such was the nature of the ancient world a world that was to borrow Mr. Miller's words devoid of nicities and governed by power. And then he references, as a lot of people have done lately, uh recently Tom Holland in his book Dominion, describing how um ancient Greeks and pre-Christian Romans generally believe that their gods favored the strong and were indifferent to the weak, but that Christianity upended these assumptions. He says, "The moral instinct is so ubiquitous today that we barely recognize it as **[26:59]** Judeo-Christian or even as religious." So, Christian morality underpins what we generally just consider morality >> and human rights and all of that. >> And he says, which is which is always important to say, that's not to pretend that these lofty principles have effectively restrained great powers. Christian morality didn't prevent medieval kings and the Catholic Church from massacring civilians, persecuting Jews, or committing genocides in the New World. Unlike the pagans of antiquity, however, those rulers had to answer to charges of hypocrisy, which corroded **[27:30]** their credibility in a way that the Athenians never had to contend with. Propo purportedly Christian great powers could do what they wanted to just as uh the Athenians declared, but unlike the ancients, they did so at a cost to their political legitimacy. That's a really important point. Um so then he talks about people like George Bush um and other rule American leaders that sent people into very questionable military conflicts but they came up with a justification that would we were still in line with Christian morality. It **[28:02]** wasn't enough to simply say that we as the strong can do whatever we want. We had to couch couch it all however unconvincingly in a framework that made it palatable to the Christian conscience. And that's the world we're leaving behind. and he describes some of the things the Trump administration has done. Um trying to acquire Greenland through threat. Uh we're acting like the ancient Greeks brutishly without shame or apology and the abdication of Christian values is already shaping the conduct of our government towards its **[28:32]** citizens as in Minneapolis where immigration agents have killed two protesters. So he concludes this is Leighton Woodhouse. He's an independent journalist, documentary filmmaker um and a Substack author. Have you heard of Substack? Yeah, >> I hear all the cool kids have a Substack. >> That's That's the thing. Now, >> we got to get ourselves a Substack. We should totally look. >> Sounds like a sandwich. >> Yeah, give me a double I want a double Substack. >> I want a foot long >> with the original sauce. Um, Vice President J. D. Vance never tires of **[29:03]** pointing out that America is a philosophically Christian nation and that Christianity is under attack from his political enemies. Such statements get big applause from the Trumploving crowds. But the administration he serves is doing more than any Antifa foot soldier is doing more than any Antifa foot soldier to dismantle that philosophy as the fundamental basis of our government's political legitimacy. So here we have liberal, progressive, perhaps even leftist um authors, journalists saying, "Hey, **[29:36]** we're losing Christianity. Anybody notice this isn't good?" And the irony is that the administration, as he as he points out, that is always trumpeting its Christian identity and its Christian >> uh base is aggressively advocating pagan values and pagan foreign policy and and well, did you hear at all about um the the Secretary of War's speech at the National Prayer Breakfast? >> Mhm. >> I only saw the president's speech. >> Oh, yeah. He he he baptized **[30:10]** the military in the gospel. That that to be a soldier in the in the US military was to be doing God's will. Um to give your life for the US military was like Christ giving his life. It it had >> He's far from the first. [laughter] >> I know. But >> yeah, I mean that's an American thing we say. >> Not that bad. But that bad. It was um I mean there's a reason he has crusader tattoos, >> right? **[30:40]** >> Because that's so many of the people that that come to take shots at me on Twitter have crusaders as their little pictures of of this is how I want to be seen. And it's a it's a medieval guy with a crusader cross and a sword held up and I'm going to go kill people. >> It's a clash of civilizations, us versus them. We love that. We love the Clash of Civilizations. Isn't that a online game? [sighs] >> I wouldn't know. >> I think it is. I don't know. **[31:11]** >> Thoughts, Miss Caitlyn? >> Yeah. I mean in so many ways this article says things that we have been saying for a really long time which is both western political thought not perfectly not entirely but has been deeply shaped by Christian values to the point where we have assumptions about them. Um I I appreciate how the article points out like even just the idea that the weak should be protected was a new idea when Christians started saying things like that. Um, the thing that I kept thinking while I was reading the piece though was **[31:43]** while I think it would probably be a net good for Christian values and ideas to be more robustly prominent in our politics, not just as Vance or others might want as like a symbol or, you know, a sense of identity or community, but actually robust values and beliefs. Well, I think that would be good. I think what's happening is we're showing proof that those ideas without any of the story or metaphysical basis upon which they are built don't withstand human lives. **[32:13]** >> Yeah. >> Like if you're going to say, well, this is just a a feature of our country. This is like a legacy, an inheritance of ours that we believe these things about humans. if you don't bring with that where those ideas come from. And I'm not saying that we should legislate those, you know, Christian stories and values, but when you lose a broad sense of of most people understand we protect the vulnerable and the weak because even if we lose our lives in the process, we believe in the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come or we value the things that we value because Jesus told us to value them and Jesus **[32:44]** was God. when you get rid of those things, it's a lot harder to stand by them, when you don't have like a robust story making sense for why those things are true. So, if if politicians today are saying, "Well, we just want to do these things because we want more power and we want to steamroll over you because we can." And then people who want to hold those values without any of the story or the metaphysics say, "Well, just don't like that." There's not much behind that. I mean, we can say this is like America's Christian inheritance, >> but once you discard the underlying metaphysics and the underlying story, **[33:16]** you don't get this great ethic that you can just kind of pull away from that context and use however you will, you lose the foundation upon which it all makes sense, >> right? Well, and then you get to a point where people are saying, you know, healthc care is a human right, a basic human right that everyone should have. And you you see why, >> right? >> Based on what, right? You know, how and when in the world did people say he doesn't have access to top medical care? This is a wrong that our society must I mean that's a fairly recent development **[33:46]** and it was almost entirely out of Christianity in the west to develop it. >> Think about where we've come over the last couple years. We have not we but we have seen a significant segment of the American population and certainly the MAGA world and a lot of the evangelical white evangelical church come to a place of saying empathy is either toxic or sinful if if you quote what you mentioned from from Steven Miller they've embraced this idea that the real world is governed by strength it's governed by force and it's **[34:18]** governed by power >> I I can't think of a statement that is more antithetical to the way of Christ. I mean, this this is the spirit of Antichrist. That's what that is. >> And yet, people have baptized this administration as God's instrument in the world. It's just so completely backwards. It's exactly what Isaiah said. When these people are going to call good evil and evil good and the lightness dark and dark lightness, that's where we've come to. It's bonkers. >> Okay, but we've got Trevor Noah on our side. **[34:48]** >> Thank God. [laughter] He's he's on his way. He's on his way to help. Trevor Noah was interviewing uh Zoran Mdani, the Democratic Socialist mayor of New York City. And uh Mandani said, "Republicans, this is interesting quote, Republicans have a limitless imagination. Democrats are constructing an everlowering ceiling of possibility." Um, we This is uh in a Instagram post by Liz Booker. Booker **[35:21]** Booker Booker Booker Bookar. I'm not sure how to say it. >> How many times can you try it though? [snorts] >> Um, a few more. I can keep going. Tell me when you want me to stop. And Trevor Noah's response was, "It's because of the decline of religion on the left." Um she says she writes Trevor dropped this almost casually then explained faith requires the ability to believe this current state is not the end. There is a possibility that something can be greater even though you cannot see it you can believe you believe it can **[35:52]** happen. And then Mdani responded saying houses of worship still have that trust really still have that faith and it's by and large lost when it comes to politics. Um, so, uh, she said, Liz says that made her think of Catholic theologian David Tracy's concept of analogical imagination, a a trained capacity to see possibilities in the present, not wishful thinking, disciplined attention to what reality suggests is possible. Religious traditions, Liz writes, have **[36:24]** been teaching this for centuries. Hope that survives disappointment. It's like MLK's beloved community, which wasn't utopian fantasy. It was a realistic, achievable goal grounded in black church theology. King could look at Jim Crow America and see what was trying to be born. He trained people in disciplined hope and it works. So, um, she asked the question, "Has religious illiteracy on the left meant losing access to the tools needed for transformative politics? the capacity to imagine radically different futures. This **[36:55]** practice ability to trust in possibilities you can't yet prove. >> I I wouldn't say it's a loss of religious literacy. It's a loss of religion. >> Oh, okay. Yeah. >> And that's what so many people in progressive circles and secular settings lose this vision. It's you go back and look at the civil rights movement or you go back earlier to the abolitionist movement or pick whatever movement of reform you want from prior generations. Most of them are rooted in a profoundly Christian vision of the world and ethic and story as Caitlyn talks about and esqueological vision of the redemption **[37:28]** of all things and the hope of the world to come. All that animates and fuels the changes we wanted to make in the world now. And to to see those changes happen and then look back and go, "Oh, we can keep doing that, but let's get rid of the religion piece of it." >> Yeah. And I've mentioned this many times on this show in different interviews I've done, but back in 2006, then Senator Obama did a fantastic talk about the role of religion in public discourse and in politics and talked about exactly this, that these great traditions rooted **[37:59]** their social activism and their political activism in the grounding of their faith. And so much of the secular left has said, "We want all that activism. We want all that change. We want all that progress, but we don't want to root in any of that stuff anymore." >> Yeah. and they're they're cutting off the engine that fuels it. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I appreciated that speech, too. I wrote a whole chapter about how I think Obama's approach to to religion was in many ways better than a lot of like conservative evangelical favorite politicians. But he did in that speech say something that I think happens on the left a lot that I think is a a **[38:30]** misunderstanding of the power of religion. He talked a bunch about religious language. Like this is the moral language of our country. And even in this interview, I hear this sense of well, let's let's return to religious language or the form of religion for the sake of this political goal. And as you've talked about a bunch, Sky, like if you're using Christianity to get something other than Christianity, you're not actually believing Christianity. But also that this goes back to this other piece about um Donald Trump being a pagan king. You can't **[39:01]** drain the language of the actual story and belief and metaphysics and think that it will work as well. >> Like I think a lot of people on the left want to be fluent in religion or or literate in religion. Sometimes it's paternalistic. Sometimes it's like for the sake of reaching the masses that are still confused and believe this backward stuff. >> The unwashed masses the unwashed mass masses. But sometimes it's also it's it's I want I don't want to actually I don't want to have to believe this stuff **[39:31]** is actually true, but I want to speak as if it is true. As if that's what makes religion valuable is it gives this imagination or it gives language or it gives and I think what is often missed as Sky has pointed out is historically >> it was not religious language that made the civil rights movement. It was this like deep belief not only in the life of the world to come, but reading this New York Times piece, I'm so struck by this belief that the story that was being told by segregationists, by by violent activists, by people who were harming those churches and communities, the **[40:02]** story they believed about what was fundamentally true of the world was a wrong story in the present. Like even this this line you you quoted from Miller, we live in the real world governed by strength, governed by force, governed by power. Part of the Christian task is to say, not let's imagine something different than that. Let's imagine a world that's not governed by force or governed by power. There's a little bit of that. That's true. We we're awaiting the redemption and restoration of all things while this is in some sense the reality that powerful people can do a lot of great evil. But **[40:33]** on another level, part of the Christian task is to say like, no, actually the world doesn't work the way that you say that it works. You're bending it to your will right now, but that won't be sustainable forever because the reality is that the world that God created that is good >> isn't run in this kind of way. There's a different story that is currently true. And you don't get there, you don't get there by saying, let's model ourselves after religious people. You get there by going, do you actually believe in your bones that the way that they are narrating what is true in the world is **[41:03]** not just unhelpful or unjust, but is not true. That is not the world that God made. That is not the reality that is true currently. Even though we're believing that lie right now, even though it seems to be true right now. >> So, you say we're all, even the non-Christians are starting in Genesis 3 >> a little bit. >> Yeah. And not just Genesis 3. I mean, I've talked a bunch on the show about Revelation as this unveiling of what's really going on. You think this is the normal operation of things. Actually, it's the unveiling of like the great evil of these powers and this great conflict. Revelation is also the unve un unveiling of this whole time all of this **[41:36]** chaos and evil is is forefront of your mind is happening on earth. The reality like the the the stronger more true reality that's happening in heaven >> is that the martyrs are celebrating at the throne of God and real justice and righteousness and truth is already real. It doesn't mean >> all of the brokenness we're experiencing here on earth is just an illusion. No, it's really real. But when Steven Miller says the real world is governed by strength, governed by force, no. Jesus Christ defeated those powers and principalities on the cross and showed **[42:06]** us what real power is. Showed us what is actually true of creation. For us to listen to him and go, "Yeah, you're right that that's real, but please act nicer is to not be very Christian." To be Christian would be to say, "That's not the world that God made. That's not the world that God desires us to live in. But also, you're believing a lie that is passing away. And what is actually true of the world was revealed on the cross." [snorts] Okay. So, to take a step back, what I hear you saying is on in the Trump administration, the Steven Miller types, they're advocating for a profoundly anti-Christian **[42:38]** way of engaging the world. But what we just read from Trevor Noah and Mandani and all that, the more progressive side, is we want a form of religion, >> but we don't want the actual substance of it. And this is a bad metaphor, but it feels to me like there there are people on the progressive left who want to cohabitate with Jesus, but they don't want to actually marry the guy. [laughter] >> Like they they want the benefits of religion, but they don't want any of the cost. They don't want any of the obligation, >> which is true on the right as well. Everyone's co-opting >> symbol. But that's what's so fascinating. So for so many decades on **[43:09]** the on the religious right, it was we want to use Jesus to achieve our political objectives. But now they're like, >> screw that. We just want pagan power. Let's let's cut to the chase here. And on the left, for so many years, it's been, "We don't want Christianity. We don't want Jesus. We just want cultural transformation." And now they're going, "Oh, okay. Maybe we need a little Jesus to help us with we lost him. But we don't want all the Jesus." Because that would ask too much of us. >> Jesus juice. Some Jesus >> diet Jesus. >> Yeah. Jesus light. [laughter] >> So what do we So what do we say to our progressive friends? like what do you **[43:41]** what do you because the the instinct to to at least admire the teaching of Jesus and its effect on people is good. Yes. >> And we want to encourage it. But how do we get past that to, you know, he was actually a real person that asked for your allegiance, >> right? I I I to Caitlyn's point, I think this is true of everyone on all sides. People are drawn to Jesus for all kinds of different reasons. Great. take a step closer. Our job or those of us who feel **[44:12]** called to this, our job is to keep inviting them in deeper. Yeah. And to discover he's not just someone or something you use to achieve some other end. >> He is in and of himself the most valuable thing and the goal and the end to which all things point. So devote yourself to him. Seek first the kingdom of God. All these other things will be added onto you. But you don't get the other things and bypass the king whose kingdom it is. >> Yeah. >> Can't you just like sneak into the **[44:43]** palace and steal some of the things that you want and then apply them without him noticing? >> Well, if if you look at it as it's a it's a useful fiction, >> right? That's how some people see it. >> Hey, we're forgetting the values of the Lord of the Rings. Everyone read the books, watch the movies. We need to return to the values of Tolken in his fictitious world. It's that's kind of where we are. >> Yeah. And the irony is on the other side **[45:13]** they're saying we really want a Christian society again, but we're going to use pagan tactics to get it. >> Yeah. >> The other side is saying we want a utopian kind of society and we want to use Christian tactics to get it, but we don't want all of it because some of it asks too much of us. Yeah. >> So, everyone's trying to >> force it on their terms. And at some point, you just have to fall before Jesus and go, "All right, we'll do it on your terms, including the mercy and the empathy and the kindness towards those who are our enemies and the dignity of all people and the things you are asking of us to surrender. We accept the whole **[45:44]** thing, not just >> too much >> the little bits we want. >> It's just too much. It's it's too it's it's free and it's also costly." Mhm. I think the way that you phrase that question, Phil, is really important because how I would speak about the people who want to use religious language for political goals and have a lot of power is very different than the way I would want to speak to someone who's seeing this post on Instagram and going, "Oh, yeah, interesting. I'm like curious about imagining a different possibility." Like I have a little bit **[46:15]** of a harsher edge to me for the people who have a lot of power and tend to use it in this kind of flippant way. But I I think you're totally right that there are plenty of people who regardless of where they are on the political spectrum are suddenly realizing that something is missing in their family and their community and their politics. Even if they're what, you know, on the right or the left, they might have an experience of watching the Trump administration in particular and going, "Wait, what was it that made past presidents feel accountable to describe what they did in ways that that you know were distinctly moral in these ways? And why is that **[46:46]** lost now?" Right? and along the skies. >> Why were we embarrassed to say actually we did kind of do this for just people a sense of shame? >> Why did people have to repent? Why did they have to I mean even if they were lying and that was bad, they felt the need to present things in a certain light to show that >> and if you accidentally tweeted out say pictures of a former president and his wife as apes, you would rush to apologize, right? Even if you kind of maybe did it on purpose, but you didn't think it would get out, you would rush **[47:16]** to apologize. >> This I did a whole sky pod skydive some months ago about the the positive side of hypocrisy. That's kind of what we're talking about. Like >> hypocrisy, though wrong, shows that you still have a sense of what is right. >> It points to a standard. >> Exactly. And the reason you're hiding the truth of your own failure is because you believe the standard is still good. And >> where have all the hypocrites gone? >> Oh my gosh, >> that's the problem. But I really do think for the people who are starting to have this experience of like oh what is happening **[47:47]** >> progressives >> on both ends like I mean I I see this evident in the people who are going oh wait is there some value to religion that I have been missing in my politics. I also see this on the right right now with people who for some of for some of them some of what's been happening with ICE, some of the murders, some of the the the significant presence and the terrorizing of immigrant communities has made them go wait like I I something has changed here and I'm curious about it. I I do think along the lines of what Sky said, there is a great opportunity to say, hey, it's actually even better than **[48:17]** you thought. Like you thought it had this limited political goal. >> What if it's also true? And what if it really means something for your whole life? And and yes, it comes with all this cost, >> but again, my whole point in the beginning was like the cost doesn't make sense without the larger story that says why it's worth it, right? >> And if I show you why it's worth it, I'm not starting with just actually Jesus asks more of you than just, you know, being used for your political goals. I'm actually saying it's so much bigger and better than the political goals you're trying to achieve. Jesus gets you so much more than your candidate having a **[48:47]** better shot at winning or the bills you want passing getting passed. He offers you everything. eternal life, the reconciliation and redemption of all things. >> No, all I want is All I want is rent control. >> That's just that I'm >> You get rent control in heaven. Phil, you do. I promise [laughter] >> it. It's the parable. It's you find the treasure buried in a field, you sell everything you have to gain because what you're gaining is so much more valuable than what you are giving up. >> Yes. I I don't want to be cynical about people on the left who are suddenly interested in religion. Yeah, >> I'm a little cynical of maybe the the kind of conflict entrepreneurs who **[49:19]** suddenly realize that it's maybe useful. But for other people, I want to say, >> yeah, this is actually how Christianity spreads is people going, "Oh my gosh, is the world >> bigger [clears throat] and better? Is there more out there than I thought? Is it true?" >> And painting the picture that makes you want it to be true. because a lot of the comments on on her Instagram post um as I was scrolling down were people saying things like, "Yeah, but this is BS because if you're a Christian, all you care about is the next life. So the one what you do in this one doesn't matter **[49:49]** and you don't care about this world." >> That's a warped kind of Christian. >> That's the narrative we're up against. >> You know, is partly we have created a Christianity that doesn't care about what happens in this world, >> which is why some of the people who were raised in those environments in those Christian environments are chucking it too. And they're that this is like there are people disillusioned coming from both ends. >> Right. Right. >> Oh boy. Oh >> and hopefully they find the real Jesus somewhere. >> Yeah. Someone should help them. Yeah. >> Someone someone should try to help them. Let's try to help them. Okay. [snorts] **[50:20]** Okay. Mike, you okay? >> Okay. I'll start my own podcast. >> Okay. You're on so many podcasts already. You don't need another podcast, fella. Hey everybody, thanks for coming along. Thanks for supporting us. Go to Holy Post Plus. There's lots of stuff that Skye's making, Caitlyn's making, Esau's making, even Mike might be making stuff and >> so much stuff >> I pop in every now and then, but I'm making stuff for kids I can't wait to tell you about. Okay, we'll see you next week. Bye. >> This episode is sponsored by Policy **[50:52]** Genius. I got a life insurance policy almost 30 years ago when my kids were little. [music] I wanted to know that they'd be okay if I were unexpectedly, well, not here. And it's been great knowing that that policy was always there regardless of my income in any given year from my peculiar line of work. [music] Just recently, I was wondering if I should rethink my life insurance and see what my options were today. 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In 1997, Joshua Harris's book, I Kiss Dating Goodbye, was released and became the seinal [music] work for the True Love Weights movement. Harris was just 21 years old, but he found himself in the spotlight. He was the poster child for purity culture. In the years that followed, he became a megaurch pastor and eventually the president of **[54:29]** Sovereign Grace Churches. Despite all this notoriety and influence, under the surface, Harris was harboring all kinds of doubts about the fundamentalist Christianity he was raised [music] within and now leading. He was rethinking everything, including the book that defined his identity and [music] launched his career. About 10 years ago, Harris publicly apologized for his book and the way his participation in purity culture had hurt so many people. [music] And he even asked the publisher to stop sales of I kiss dating goodbye. But the more shocking news came in 2019. That's **[55:01]** when Harris announced that he and his wife were divorcing and that he was no longer a Christian. It's hard to overstate how seismic this was within conservative evangelical subcultures. Joshua Harris, the cheerleader for purity culture, had suddenly become a cheerleader for the deconstruction movement. For some, he represented the false promises and failures of American evangelicalism, all wrapped up in one [music] package. But that wasn't the end of the story. More recently, Harris posted on Instagram that he's curious **[55:31]** about Jesus again. He's recognized the shortcomings and what he calls bully energy that [music] exists in progressive secular communities as well. And he says that the years after he left his faith were sometimes marked by an overcorrection. We talked about Harris's recent Instagram post a few weeks ago. And after that episode, I asked our producer Mike to reach out to Harris. I was curious to hear more about his story and thankfully he agreed to come on the show. My conversation with Harris was way longer than we could fit into [music] just this episode. So, the first **[56:03]** 30 minutes are here, but we've posted the rest of the interview on Holy Post Plus for subscribers. You can go to holyost.com to learn how to sign up and access [music] that. Here is my conversation with Joshua Harris. Joshua Harris, welcome to the Holy Post. >> Hey, thanks so much for having me. >> I'm delighted to have this conversation. Um, it must be weird for you that the **[56:34]** thing that people know you most for, you did when you were what, 21 years old, the the publishing of your book, So, I I kissed Dating Goodbye. Um, I want to get into some of that. We're not going to talk about the book and purity culture and all that stuff because you've talked about that at nauseium and other settings and places, but I do want to talk about the background of that book. How is it that you were able to publish a book at 21 years old? >> Yeah, I um I [snorts] there are days where I I would love to pass the book **[57:06]** for the the contents of that book on to other people, but um I I wrote it. I believed it with all my heart. I sought to spread it. And the answer to the question, how I got a a book contract was tied to uh in many ways I I'd say the the family business that I was a part of. My dad was a an influential leader in the homeschool movement. Traveled across the country teaching workshops to tens of **[57:37]** thousands of families. I came alongside him, began to speak at his workshops when I was a teenager, started publishing a magazine for homeschooled teens, started doing my own conferences for teenagers. And so I had you know pre- social media pre you know explosion of the internet a you know an audience a platform a lot of people that I was interacting with directly and also sort **[58:09]** of inroads to the publishing world because my dad was in the in the publishing world. So I'd go and man the book table at CBA Christian Book Sellers Association and talk go and talk to all the different publishers and that kind of a thing. And so I had relationships and connections that I think were were unique and a platform that that got them to to pay attention to my manuscript. >> Okay. So that that raises a a different question for me. I've been in the Christian publishing world too. Obviously, I'm not at the same age, but **[58:41]** did in the process of you speaking at these events, building an audience, publishing a magazine as a teenager, and then eventually writing a manuscript for a book and having publishers express interest in it. Did anyone in your older person in your life, whether a parent or a publisher, somebody, did anyone ever step in and go, >> "Hey, Josh, you know, great that you're interested in all this, but maybe you need to slow down or maybe this isn't the best thing for your faith or formation right now to be put out front in front of so many people in these different venues." Did that ever happen? **[59:13]** You know, I I I have one memory of u the pastor of the church that I grew up in. Um Stu Weber, God bless him. He he's a he's a an icon, you know, tender warrior uh kind of guy. I remember him making a comment about how people shouldn't write books until they're 40, at least 40. And it stood out to me because it was kind of like, "Oh, wow." You know, the sad thing about that is that it was **[59:46]** almost like a comment in passing. It wasn't a let me just sit down. I know this is going to this is going to be hard to hear this. I say this in love. It was more of I would say more on the level of isn't this annoying? These young kids think they have something to say. And that kind of delivery. I'm not putting any blame on him at all. He was one of the few people, I think, who was making an astute observation, but it's an example of the disconnect between a certain kind of wisdom connecting with a **[60:19]** younger person when it's said in a way that is is not empowering and, you know, >> relational, I guess you could say. >> But, but that really stands out to me as one of the few examples. and you know the machine of that world which is it's easy to criticize but it's just people doing their jobs. It's an acquisition editor that goes, "Wow, this kid has an audience. Oh, this is a fresh take. This is kind of interesting." It doesn't take a lot of people to greenlight something like that. And I think in the in the **[60:50]** evangelical world, there's a tradition that goes back a long way where we love to we love to highlight young people that are that are catching fire, you know, for the faith. We love that zeal. Like it's something that inspires the older people. There's an emphasis on the next generation. So when you see the next generation grabbing hold of messages and ideas that you approve of, >> you're like, "Yeah, let's let's give this person the stage. Let's give them the mic. This is great. They're they're going to inspire other young people their age." And I think that's what my **[61:22]** book was a a really big example of >> in the early 2000s. Your book came out in 97. In the early 2000s after I uh finished seminary, I was a pastor and then I started working at Christianity Today and going to a lot of ministry conferences. That was kind of the heyday of the so-called emerging church >> trend. And there were all these younger 20some pastors at different parts of the country that were all getting these publishing deals. And I remember talking to an executive at a Christian publisher and asking him, "How long is this emerging church thing going to go?" Like, "Is this got legs? Is this a **[61:53]** long-term kind of movement thing?" Mhm. >> And he very dryly said to me, "It has 18 months." And I I was like, "What do you mean?" And he goes, "Well, that's when our marketing plan runs out for the emer like we created the emerging church and it's going to run out 18 months." Um, and from that experience and many others around 2012, I wrote an article in which I talked about and coined the term the evangelical industrial complex. >> And so this is a question I wanted to ask you. Having grown up in kind of the homeschool more fundamentalist **[62:24]** uh stream of American Christianity, we can critique that all day long, but I would argue one of the lessons and I think strengths of fundamentalism is that it it relies very heavily on wisdom from the past. It says this is what we've inherited. Whether it's doctrinal truths of scripture or models of tr whatever it might be family structures things like that there's there's things we have inherited that we should not throw away but retain the wisdom of but one of those great heritages of American or any Christian **[62:55]** tradition is the importance of structures of accountability and I mean all the way back to the New Testament where Paul says don't don't appoint new believers to these positions of authority but make sure they're they've been tested and >> why is it that part of Christian tradition. Why has that been jettisoned by American evangelicalism or American fundamentalism that says, "No, no, no. We don't care if they're untested. We don't care if they're untrained. If they're able to draw a crowd and sell books, we're going to give them a **[63:26]** microphone and put them on a platform." How do you explain that piece not being part of the package of what we want to retain from the past? Yeah, I think that um most traditions have a tendency to um be better at applying [laughter] certain traditions and um they can kind of pick and choose. And I think that **[63:57]** when it comes to getting more market share, more acclaim, more success, it's hard to pay attention to those commands. I mean, you could say the same thing about, you know, commandments about greed and, you know, ignoring the poor, those those kinds of things. those are great, but if that restrains you from, you know, being pals with the with the ultra wealthy or, you know, filling your own pockets, those kinds of things. So, I mean, I **[64:28]** just think that we all can be selective when it's when it's to our own benefit. Um, you know, I think part of my own struggle with some of these things is that, you know, you when you're when you're in church systems and you're benefiting from them, you're at the top of the pile. >> It's hard to see the flaws. It's like, this is great. This system is great. [laughter] >> Yeah. It worked for me, right? So, it must >> work great for me. Yeah. Exactly. But there are other people in that same **[64:58]** system, you know, like I remember being a pastor, single women in the church, they were much more ready to go, hey, you know what? There's some there seem to be some flaws in this structure. I feel really pushed out and isolated and you know, families with kids, you you you pastors love them, but what what about me? That kind of thing. That's just an example of how depending on where you are in the the structure, you you benefit or you don't benefit. And again, when you're benefiting, it's hard to be honest about the inconsistencies **[65:29]** and the hypocrisies. And I think it's just easy for humans to use the power they have to push certain things out and highlight certain things and, you know, use the the the excuse of being faithful to the fundamentals as as a way to control and and remain in power. Um, and I'm not saying that's true of everybody. I'm just saying that that's that's a temptation for all of us. >> Um, as somebody who at that time benefited from the system to use your **[66:00]** phrase, >> you benefited with uh notoriety with influence perhaps financially and then you you were >> in short order accelerated into ministry roles in church roles and even church leadership roles. >> So you benefited in one way. Looking back, can you talk a little bit about how you actually didn't benefit or the way it impaired >> you in some way or your faith development in some way unexpectedly? >> That's a great question. I I do think **[66:33]** that I was promoted and given opportunities that I grabbed hold of just assuming of, you know, if someone's saying that I'm going to be the next lead pastor, I'm going to lead this movement. You know, if these these people who have who are established leaders and so successful for the Lord, you know, if they're seeing that in me, then it must be, you know, the will of God. And I think I walked through open doors when I needed to linger in places of learning, of **[67:05]** wrestling, of you know, considering other viewpoints and perspectives. So I bypassed a lot of those things because of the opportunities and I, you know, I I really missed I think seasons where I should have been wrestling and and asking harder questions. And a lot a lot of that's on me. Just even my personality, I think I'm, you know, my whole personality is more one of, oh, is this is this what the team says? Let's I want to be a good team player. **[67:37]** You know, I want to go along with things. I went right from being in my parents house and carrying those banners to moving into, you know, the the basement of the senior pastor at the church I was trained at. And I just embraced everything that we believed instead of saying, "Well, I want to think through this. let's I want to I want to hear the other side of this story. And I was in an environment that didn't encourage that kind of thinking, right? >> Um you know, it didn't encourage, hey, let's let's debate and wrestle with these different theological viewpoints. **[68:08]** It was no, here are the here's the approved list of books. Here's the approved list of theologians. Here's how we do things. and stepping into a leadership role so young, I just became a spokesman for those values instead of someone who was curious and and asking questions. >> It sounds like you were in an environment that mistook certainty for maturity. >> That's a great way to put it. Yeah. And I don't I mean, yes, I appreciate you're **[68:38]** taking responsibility for the things that you chose and going along with, but I'm a little disappointed that you didn't have adults, older adults around you with the maturity and wisdom to say, "Hey, Josh, maybe you need to slow down. Maybe you need more time for >> training, reflection, life experience, getting knocked down a few times before you're given so many platforms of significant influence." I've just heard this story over and over and over again from people close to me, other people I've I've worked alongside who were very **[69:09]** gifted and very good on a platform and wonderful relationally. And so they were just pushed to more and more influence in ministry settings and there wasn't any attention given by the people around them and the leaders around them >> to the the strength of their soul and their capacity to carry that influence. And it it either leads to some kind of ministry breakdown or just personal devastation on some level. Um, if you could go back, I guess there's two ways to answer this that frame this question. And I know you've got kids around my kids' ages, kind of young adult ages, **[69:42]** >> and I don't want you to talk about your kids, like I don't want talking about my kids, but if one or more of your kids came to you with like a real drive towards a ministry uh vocation or platform, I'm curious what you would what wisdom would you impart to them now >> that you maybe didn't receive when you were their age? >> Yeah. I I mean it's so hard for me to imagine any of my kids wanting to go into ministry. I'm having a little bit of a trouble with a question. Random young random young **[70:12]** adult comes to you. >> Young person. >> Yeah. >> Um I think that there is in that first half of life, you know, Richard Roar talks about the first half of life. It's it's all about securing your identity. feeling safe because you are believing the right things, living the right way, striving towards uh different goals. That can be in a ministry context, that **[70:44]** can be in a you know career context. And there is a certain sense in which I think it's pretty hard to break through that young person's [laughter] view of the world and impart that wisdom. I mean, I think you know, you've said some of those things. Hey, slow down. Don't find your identity in this role. Don't equate your relationship **[71:14]** with God to a position. Separate the the audience of one, as to use a evangelical phrase, from the the audience of people that are cheering you on. Recognize the different motivations that are around you that are hard to see. Like it's hard to sort through the voice of God. and if you ask this theological question, you're going to lose your internship. Like, it's hard to it's hard to be **[71:45]** honest about those kinds of things. And so, I I probably would just say there's there's going to be some benefit to growing your faith outside of that being tied to your livelihood and your identity. That would be the the encouragement that I would bring. And I I think you know the reason that in these settings it's so hard to encourage young people to do those kinds of things is there is a risk there's a risk whenever you ask any question that you **[72:16]** will come up with a wrong answer. [laughter] And so if you are if you're coming from a more fundamentalist viewpoint that says there are a lot of wrong answers out there. In fact the world is more filled with wrong answers than right answers. Then you're going to be very protective. You're going to be very controlling. You're going to create your own, you know, in-house educational programs, whether that's homeschooling or your own colleges or your own seminaries, whatever it might be. And you're going to discourage people from asking too many questions or **[72:48]** listening to all the voices because there's a chance that that they'll come back with what you consider to be a wrong answer. So, I I do think there's a lot of fear and control that builds the structures. And if somebody is running hard in the answers that you like, let them run. You know, you're like, "Oh, great. Just let them run." Because you're more concerned with propping up your system and your structure than I think it kind of being open to mystery or or believing that God **[73:20]** can be working even if they take a viewpoint that's that's different than the the establishment. uh something I've written a lot about but I find so ironic is that these communities that talk so much about the importance of faith don't recognize how control is the antithesis of faith >> and uh you mentioned it multiple times in your answer there that fear and that need for control uh it just seems contrary to the life we're called to. Um let's move ahead in the story a little bit because uh roughly 10 years ago you **[73:53]** openly apologized for the what some of the ideas that you contributed to through your book and the purity culture stuff and you asked the publisher to please discontinue the book which they did. >> Uh you got a lot of attention for that but then you also got a lot of attention when you publicly said hey I don't think I'm a Christian anymore. M >> um why did you why did you want to do that publicly? Why was it important for you to not just wrestle with all those things going on? You were, you know, the deconstruct that word's kind of **[74:24]** overused, but you you clearly were going through some kind of process like that. What made you want to put that out in front of everybody uh for everyone to see? >> Yeah. To go back to your earlier question of giving advice to others, if when other people come and say, "Hey, I'm thinking of deconstructing publicly and putting this out there," I often say, "Slow down. Let's take take your time and think about that." >> In other words, slow down in [laughter] in in the formation of your faith and even slow down in the deformationation **[74:55]** of your faith. >> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Um, the reason that I did that is is very tied to the specifics of what I was going through in my life at the time. Uh I think it was also tied to in a sense the same patterns that had guided me all along which is I want to be a person of integrity. I want you know what I say publicly to match what's going on internally and if it's not then I feel this obligation to kind of say **[75:26]** that and and acknowledge that and and so on. So, it was a very black and white kind of thinking that I' I'd lived with as a, you know, an evangelical fundamentalist, whatever Christian for all those years. It's like you're in or you're out. You believe or you don't believe. You're not living according to the faith. And you should be put out of the church or, you know, that that kind of mindset guided me a long time as a pastor. And so when my life didn't match up, I'm getting divorced, you know, I'm all the these things that in my mind were like getting close to that **[75:58]** unforgivable kind of sin category. There was a sense in which I was just like, I can't defend what I'm doing, but I'm I'm on this path. I'm not changing the path. I'm out, guys. Like that was that was kind of what took place there. >> In terms of the life circumstances, there's a lot of sadness. There was a there was a sense in which everything that I thought about myself, everything that I had built my life around was crumbling and you know the intertwining **[76:29]** of my relationship with God to my work, my family, my identity as a writer, my identity as a pastor, my identity as a good husband, my identity as an author of best-selling books that help people, you know, honor God in their relationships. All those things through a number of different events just one by one crumbled and fell apart. And **[77:00]** you know, I think it was just like a week before that my ex-wife and I announced that we were separating. And you know, we'd live through so many kind of things as a church where everything in your life is going to be made public. if you don't get out and say it, it's going to be on a blog. It's gonna be like, and so I lived in that world. And so there was kind of this mindset of, well, I'm going to be the one to tell people, you know, we're we're separating. That was a huge explosion. The guy who wrote I kiss dating a buy, you know, is getting **[77:31]** divorced. >> And at the time, there was a huge backlash towards my ex-wife saying, "Oh, well, she's an ex. She's been saying using the term exangelical, you know, h there, you know, he he didn't marry a godly woman or whatever, all these kinds of things because she had been more vocal about that. And this is just kind of a misogynistic response. It was it must be her fault. Josh is this godly man. Their marriage is ending. It must be the woman's fault. **[78:02]** And I think, you know, in a way it was like I was watching my whole life burn down. And I was like, "Well, it's not going to hurt to throw a little more gas on the fire." I mean, that so that announcement to my, you know, saying, "You know what, guys? Actually, I don't even I don't even know that I can I don't even know that I call myself a Christian. According to everything that I've for all these years thought about being a Christian, I'm out. And I'm not even I'm not trying to defend myself or claim I'm anything." **[78:32]** Um, and so that was Yeah, that's what that moment was was about. I In some sense, you're you are very far from unique. I mean, there are many many many people who whose marriages have ended, whose faith has struggled, whose who who've reacted to the things they grew up in or environments and communities they've been a part of. But >> what does make your story a little bit more unique is you were on a platform from the time you were a teenager. And that platform only got bigger with **[79:04]** the book and then being a pastor and then leading this denominational, you know, network of churches. And so you were always kind of in the fishbowl. And so it makes sense then when you hit this season where your marriage is struggling and your faith is collapsing and you're questioning all these things that that also has to be on the platform. It has to be seen by everybody. Um, I what worries me about myself, what worries me about for my kids and anyone who like I I don't know how you form healthy anything when **[79:36]** everyone's looking at you. >> Mhm. >> And I Yeah, it just seems really strange. I don't fault you for being public with those things given that your whole life up to that point had been very public and your faith had been very public. It makes sense. Um, but I wonder what your process both as a young person and now middle-aged as we are would look like had it not been under a spotlight or on a platform or on social media. >> Uh, but we just don't allow people to do that **[80:07]** >> if you've been a pastor or you're in a public place anymore. One of the things you wrote about, we talked about this on our last Holy Post episode. You recently posted a Instagram, I don't know what they're called, multiple page things. I'm right old. Yeah. Um, but you did mention that part of that season for you eight years ago had to do with Donald Trump and the way the evangelical world had embraced him. Uh, how much do you attribute that broader dynamic to your deconstruction process **[80:38]** and how much was it the more intimate realities of your life, the the breakdown of things that you just mentioned, whether it was your marriage or or your your community or your ministry >> and how much of it was influenced by the broader dynamics going on in the culture and the evangelical subculture especially at the time? Yeah, I think it was primarily all the dynamics of what was what was taking place in my in my personal life and the upheaval that happened there. The backdrop of the political situation. **[81:11]** I mean, we can all say this. It's like it's this unavoidable massive distraction, polarizing force, relationship disrupting kind of uh moment in in history. So I think for me it was just um icing on the cake to you know to use that that metaphor of for so long I bought into a certain view of of how Christians were were to be involved in the world and you know I **[81:43]** voted Republican all my life. If I can remember being, you know, a six-year-old kid and drawing a very disrespectful caricature of Jimmy Carter, like I'm drawing cartoons and my parents are like, you know, laughing and praising me for doing this terrible picture of Jimmy Carter. Like, you know, for as long as I can remember, again, faith was very intertwined with a certain political viewpoint. And I think that, you know, um, Donald Trump obviously completely **[82:15]** hijacked the Republican party. He's taken over in so many different ways. But what it felt like to me was this moment when when I was simultaneously beginning to ask questions like, wait a second, we believe this about, you know, how women are supposed to be in the church and those kind were we right about, you know, were we wrong about that? Were we wrong? So it was this list of me going down and going, "Well, did we get this wrong as well?" You know, so I'm still within the the Christian structure asking these questions, deconstructing, taking things out and **[82:46]** and examining them. And then when it came to the the issue of politics, it felt like, wait a second, we're we're endorsing this guy who is so blatantly, you know, violates all these things that in the past we condemned this past candidate for doing these things, but now we're we're giving this person a pass. So, it felt like this moment of of major hypocrisy. Um, and it added to this sense of I don't I feel it's easier to just walk away from this. It's easier to step back **[83:18]** because a lot of the people that I and I I I love these people. You know, I've got so many friends that are Trump supporters and, you know, we disagree politically and I have deep affection for them, but it was an isolating moment that added to the the isolation that was happening to me internally. >> In your post, you you described that season as one of overcorrection. >> Unpack that for me. What does that mean? Well, I look back now and I see that I **[83:52]** just carried my fundamentalist black and white thinking with me onto a new team, >> you know. Um, and so there was this mindset of, you know, the kind of the fundamentalist approach to a lot of things. It's very fear- driven and it's very who's in and who's out. if this person is wrong doctrinally um and he hangs out with Joe, well don't hang out with Joe because he hangs, you know. So that's like the don't have **[84:23]** these books on the bookshelf, that kind of a thing. That's how that's how we operated as a church. And so when I stepped out of that and kind of stepped into, you know, whatever you want to call it, exangelical deconstruction community, whatever, I brought that same zeal. Who are the good guys? Who are the bad guys? you know, the hats have switched. Um, and and I also think I think I was being manipulated by the algorithms as I'm still being manipulated by the algorithms. There's just this sense of like, well, this person pops up and they're saying this, **[84:55]** well, if that issue is identified with, you know, MAGA, Trump, whatever, then obviously it's wrong. And I definitely am opposed to it just because of the association. That's a very fundamentalist approach. You know, a more nuanced approach is saying, "Well, I'm going to I'm going to examine this issue and this topic in light of its own merits and do some hard thinking and really sort through this and not just have this emotional reaction because it's identified by whoever as as **[85:26]** belonging to one one party or one side or whatever." So, I think that's where the overreaction came into play for me. And I I started to realize that I was having that same creeping feeling of fear of getting things right. You know, when I when I was a pastor, I had that all the time. It was like, I I I got to preach things right. I need to make sure that I'm reading the right theologians. I need to, you know, I need to have all my [laughter] my eyes dotted and my tees **[85:56]** crossed. And I started to have that same fear when it came to am I speaking out on the am I taking the right stand? Am I speaking if I don't say something about whatever you know political social topic I start to feel the heat of ooh someone's going to be like why aren't you talking about this? Why aren't you saying something? So that started to to kind of come to light and I realized gosh I've got the same like fear response that I used to have in the conservative church. and and I, you **[86:28]** know, that was a that was a wakeup call that I I wasn't quite sure what to do with. All right, that was the first half of my conversation with Joshua Harris, but there was just too much to stuff into just this episode. So, the second half of the interview is posted on Holy Post Plus. If you're already a subscriber, you can get that on Holy Post Plus or in your podcast app if you've linked Holyost Plus to your podcast feed. If you're not yet a subscriber, learn how to sign up at holyost.com. Hey everyone, if you liked this video, **[86:58]** like and subscribe so that you can see more videos and other people can find more thoughtful Christian content.