715: How MAGA Rewired Evangelical Morality With Peter Wehner  🔗 **Source:** [715: How MAGA Rewired Evangelical Morality With Peter Wehner](https://share.snipd.com/episode/5bca5ac4-f9e7-4726-a2f6-23384dfae48c) ## Highlights - **Spectacle Signals Power Not Gospel** - Spectacular church events communicate power, wealth, and status more than the gospel. - Hosts contrast drone shows and helicopter egg drops with Jesus' preference for intimate, need‑focused miracles that reverse human suffering. Transcript: Skye Jethani Did you go to any egg drops? No, I did not go, but I... Caitlin Schess Because I do have some questions. Skye Jethani I love egg drop soup. What I think is the more interesting thing that no one really ever talks about in these stories is a sort of theology of the spectacular. Like why, especially in American evangelicalism, are we so drawn to spectacular things? Caitlin Schess Is that really unique though? Skye Jethani No, I don't think it's unique. Caitlin Schess Because you go to a cathedral in Europe. Skye Jethani Yes, but there's a difference, I think. Caitlin Schess Oh, I totally think there's a difference. Skye Jethani Well, it's not totally different. When you go to an amazing cathedral in Europe that took hundreds of years to build, it's also spectacular. And there's a message in the spectacular that I think we need to be more explicit about. Any display of spectacular anything is a display of power. So when you walk into a town in Europe and you see this giant cathedral, what's being communicated is the church here has power. We control things and look at the magnificent thing we can build. Phil Vischer And if it was often local leaders or kings that were driving those projects as a show of- Of power. Skye Jethani Yes. Instead. So when you put on a giant drone show or you're dropping tens of thousands of eggs, what that church is communicating is we have power. We are significant. ([Time 0:29:58](https://share.snipd.com/snip/438b5ab1-e40d-4bb9-9c2f-38f5360c90ec)) - **Jesus' Spectacles Were Need‑Driven** - Jesus' public miracles served real needs and reversed curses rather than self‑aggrandizement. - The hosts note drone shows and egg drops rarely meet genuine needs or symbolize reversal, unlike feeding crowds or healings. Transcript: Skye Jethani The two things that jump out are one, he's always meeting a genuine need that other people have, whether it's calming the storm to help his buddies out in the boat or feeding people who Are hungry, who have been following him, or they're all to serve a real need. And secondly, they all in some form are a reversal of the curse. So somebody is sick, he heals them. Some people are hungry, they're fed. And as much as it does validate his identity and draw some attention to himself, that's not the primary goal because he does plenty of things secretly without displaying. Those aren't spectacular, but the spectacle ones are reversals of the curse that genuinely serve other people. And these kinds of spectacles tend to not do either of those things. ([Time 0:37:11](https://share.snipd.com/snip/165778b8-334b-4893-b3ca-e05a9fa649ce)) - **Premium Bible Boom Tied To Anxiety** - Bible sales doubled since 2019, driven by premium 'heirloom' editions and geo‑political anxieties. - Hosts link spikes to events like wars and public scandals and question whether ownership translates into increased biblical literacy. Transcript: Phil Vischer Did you know this over the last five years? Confounding experts and running against broader trends in book publishing. Bible sales have grown steadily since 2021 and have set annual sales records since 2022. Last year, 19 million Bibles were sold in the United States, a 21-year high, and double the volume sold in 2019. Skye Jethani We need to create our own Holy Post Media Premium Bible. Oh, my gosh. Phil Vischer Well, we need a basic one for, you know. Right. The lower tier. The lower tier. Yeah. Because then that creates desire when you see the upsell. Caitlin Schess Once you've read through the lower one, you can upgrade. Yeah. Phil Vischer You need the upsell. And we'll gradually, we'll put in more comments into the Bibles from the three of us. Oh, right. Caitlin Schess Because that's what people need. Because that's what you're paying for. Skye Jethani Are you going to have an apocrypha of butt news? Is that the plan? Caitlin Schess Oh, my gosh. There's actually enough in the Bible. Phil Vischer Yeah. And I could do like a cross-reference Bible, just butt-related verses that connect to each other and form sort of a systematic theology of the butt. I'm supposed to stop talking. Yeah, we're done. We're done with that. Mike says, move on, says Mike. All right, but in serious, says that. In serious, doubled the Bible sales since 2019. Okay, you want to know the craziest thing about this? Caitlin Schess I looked up the Humble Lamb Bible that's mentioned in this article. Yeah, Humble Lamb? It's like these really- Well, that's a company, isn't it? It's a company. It's all these really beautiful leather Bibles, but they all have designs on the pages. Yeah. But they're all very like, they're very like flowy Jesus hair. Like Jesus is on there and he's got like curls cascading down his, like they just are kind of comical. Phil Vischer I wonder if that's original art or if they're... Caitlin Schess Like this one, he's coming out of the tomb, but his hair's flowing behind him and he's like... Yeah. Phil Vischer Well, does he have abs? Does he have a six-pack? Caitlin Schess He's wearing a shirt in that one, but I could find one with abs probably. Phil Vischer Okay. Is that what... At least... But it's not like a gun and an American flag. No, it's very... Caitlin Schess He looks nice. It's Jesus. He's got a lamb. Phil Vischer Give him at least partial credit. Caitlin Schess The colored one is a lamb. Phil Vischer What do we think about... Okay, I have a Bible from the 1800s that would have cost a family. It was a classic family Bible. The cover is carved wood. And people would pass them down from generation to generation and record all of their births and deaths. Skye Jethani Right. A lot of families have that kind of thing. Yeah. Phil Vischer And those were quite expensive. Skye Jethani Yes. Because printing was expensive and illustration was expensive and it was a rare, valuable object. Phil Vischer Yeah, that you would have forever. So they're saying we're kind of going back in that direction of having an heirloom quality Bible that you will want to pass on to your kids. Skye Jethani Am I out of touch? Yes. Probably. Phil Vischer Yeah, you are. Skye Jethani I mean, $400 is a lot of money for any book. Yeah. But a true family heirloom that you would pass down for generations, $400 doesn't seem like it's expensive enough. Like I would expect- Oh, you want it to be more expensive. I don't know. I just feel like it's in that weird zone of- It's not like, you know, watch collectors. Phil Vischer Yeah. It's like if it's not more than $100,000, it's not even worth it. Caitlin Schess I bet people are not actually doing- Yeah. They're buying multiple of these. Yeah. You can also buy from Humble Lamb a Bible shield. A what? A Bible shield. Skye Jethani What does that mean? Caitlin Schess Which is a protective home for your Bible, i.e. A little bag. Phil Vischer Oh, it's a purse. It's a purse. A Bible purse. A Bible purse. That sounds less manly. It's a shield. It's a shield. It's a shield for your Bible. It should be a holster. Skye Jethani Right. Yeah. Are these made of lamb skin? Is that why it's called humble lamb? Caitlin Schess I think it's humble lamb in that like Jesus holds a lamb. I think that's a biblical reference. Skye Jethani Not an ingredients reference. But I should double check. Caitlin Schess You know, I'll see. Skye Jethani So one time when I was a college student, I was in the Middle East. I'll just say, I won't designate what country I was in. Of course not. I was in the Middle East. Phil Vischer I don't even want to know where he was. Skye Jethani And I was talking to some Muslims about Christianity. Phil Vischer Well, there's, I don't even know what you're... Skye Jethani Right. They were college students as well. No, it is calfskin. There you go. Caitlin Schess Whoa. Skye Jethani Well, that's calfskin. I said lambskin. Caitlin Schess Calfskin, goatskin, there's both, but yeah, there's not lambskin. Skye Jethani So I was talking to them about Christianity and I had my Bible with me. And at the time, the Bible I was using was being held together by duct tape. Phil Vischer Oh, and they thought that you didn't respect your God. Exactly. Skye Jethani They're like, we can't take you seriously because if this is how you treat your scriptures. Because of course, the Quran is revered and not even translated. And that opened me to the reality that cultures have different values around these kinds of things. And so I don't want to flat out say a very beautifully made and illustrated and expensive Bible is always bad or always not. But I don't think it's a bad idea to have very relatively inexpensive, accessible copies of the scripture. Phil Vischer Well, you can download the Bible for free on your phone yeah so that's and now people will send you a free bible so there's no there there's no limit to accessibility of scripture it's Skye Jethani Just for the true connoisseur of scripture and that's where i don't if it's a vanity thing i guess that's different i don't know i don't know i could never imagine myself buying a 400 how Phil Vischer Do you feel about the general doubling of Bible sales in the last seven years? What does it mean? Caitlin, you're even more free with your ideas now since you're drugged. What do you think? Caitlin Schess About the increase in Bible sales? Yes. I have no idea. Phil Vischer Is it a good thing? Caitlin Schess If more people own a Bible than used to own a Bible, I would say that might be not a huge net positive, but it's definitely a net positive. If more people own more Bibles that they don't give away to anyone and they are only one person who can only read one at a time, then that might be a neutral effect on the world. Skye Jethani I'm going to withhold my judgment of this until I see some movement in biblical illiteracy. Yeah. Because every year that comes out, that surveys about the Bible. We don't know nothing. Right. So the fact that there are more Bibles being sold, okay. If more people actually open them and read them, that will be a ([Time 0:39:44](https://share.snipd.com/snip/0d0d29a9-e758-46ba-b5c4-39761ac6dfb8)) - **Duct Taped Bible Undermined Credibility Abroad** - Skye relayed a Middle East conversation where his duct‑taped Bible undermined his credibility with Muslim students. - The incident shows cultural expectations about treating scriptures respectfully can affect interfaith dialogue. Transcript: Skye Jethani I'll just say, I won't designate what country I was in. Of course not. I was in the Middle East. Phil Vischer I don't even want to know where he was. Skye Jethani And I was talking to some Muslims about Christianity. Phil Vischer Well, there's, I don't even know what you're... Skye Jethani Right. They were college students as well. No, it is calfskin. There you go. Caitlin Schess Whoa. Skye Jethani Well, that's calfskin. I said lambskin. Caitlin Schess Calfskin, goatskin, there's both, but yeah, there's not lambskin. Skye Jethani So I was talking to them about Christianity and I had my Bible with me. And at the time, the Bible I was using was being held together by duct tape. Phil Vischer Oh, and they thought that you didn't respect your God. Exactly. Skye Jethani They're like, we can't take you seriously because if this is how you treat your scriptures. Because of course, the Quran is revered and not even translated. ([Time 0:43:27](https://share.snipd.com/snip/4e446490-6939-4cc7-845b-9d05732e5c05)) - **MAGA As Populist Nationalism** - MAGA functions more as a populist ethnic nationalist movement than traditional conservatism. - Peter Wehner contrasts policy conservatism with temperamental conservatism and argues MAGA opposes the latter by prioritizing populist instincts over conservative restraint. Transcript: Skye Jethani You wrote a piece just earlier this week in The Atlantic called How Trump Killed Conservatism. And one of the lines that jumped out to me is you said, MAGA is not just antithetical to conservatism, it's at war with it. I'm guessing some MAGA voters would be surprised to know that because I think the ones I've talked to often consider themselves conservatives. So unpack that. Why would you say MAGA is not just against conservatism, but actively opposed to it? Peter Wehner Yeah, I'd say for a couple of reasons. I mean, I'd say partly because of what MAGA is, what it represents ideologically, which is I think much more of a populist ethnic nationalist movement than a conservative movement. And what I consider to be conservatism, at least authentic conservatism, conservatism rightly understood. And I became a conservative when I was a young man. I still consider myself to be a conservative. ([Time 0:51:48](https://share.snipd.com/snip/06bfa69f-c178-47ae-96b3-34da6301caf1)) - **Social Media Fueled Populist Breakthrough** - Social media amplified existing populist currents and made them politically organizing forces. - Wehner says social platforms inflame passions and enabled a celebrity outsider like Donald Trump to convert populist resentment into political power. Transcript: Peter Wehner Yeah, it's a really good question. And I think you're onto something. There's no question in my mind that social media made this possible for any number of reasons. One of them is what you were alluding to, which is social media, as we've discovered and contrary to what a lot of people thought in the 90s, which is what would bring us together, it's Polarized us. And it has this capacity because of its nature, it's intrinsic to social media to inflame the passions of people on all sides. Well, conservatism, at least properly understood as I understand it, and I think the great thinkers of conservatism, great contributors of conservatism, and the American founders, What was their chief concern? It was the inflammation of the passions of the people. That's the reason Madison and the others designed the Constitution the way they did. Checks, balances. Your people, sir, is a great beast. Exactly. Yeah. Right. So what's the Senate supposed to do? Cool the saucer, right? Separation of powers. Frustration, yeah. Legislation goes slower. But we're willing to take that because Madison and the others are saying, we've studied history. The danger of democracy is unchecked passions, populism. So what happens is there's this populist movement growing independent of social media, but social media taps into it. Then it creates the capacity to organize in ways that people didn't have before. And then I would add apart from Trump, but I think relevant to this moment, is he himself is a sui generis figure, right? ([Time 1:01:10](https://share.snipd.com/snip/674397ce-d03c-46c7-a2c1-8094833a94e0)) - **Anger Became A Political Addiction** - The Trump era rewired moral and political reflexes into an addiction to anger and conflict. - Wehner describes how hostility became a dopamine-driven habit that now turns inward and destabilizes MAGA and civic culture alike. Transcript: Peter Wehner I suspect that'll happen. I don't know on the timeline in which it'll happen, but I think you described it well. I think that what's happened now is a kind of habit of mind and thought, certain tropisms, certain reflexes that have happened. I think 10 years of the age of Trump has rewired the circuitry of an awful lot of people in MAGA world and also Christians. Skye Jethani Yeah. To quote you back to yourself, you said that Trump has rewired the moral circuitry of evangelicals and fundamentalist Christians. Yeah. I do think that that has happened. Peter Wehner And it's an interesting thing, right? If you observe these fights that are going on, whether it's Ben Shapiro and Mark Levin against Megyn Kelly and Tucker Carlson and Candace Elwin. I mean, there are a lot of different players that are involved in this. It's not that they disagree, though that's interesting, the reason they disagree, but it's the ferocity of the insults. And I think what has happened is that they, I think some of it is probably cynical, it's clickbait, it's viewers, it's how you get attention. I think some of that is going on. But I also think that this is the power of a president to create a kind of ethic. And I think what's happened is that these people who have been in this space feed off of anger, conflict, and antipathy. Now, most of that for the Trump era has been pointed against liberals and progressives. But I think it was almost inevitable that it would turn within. And this is a phrase from the French Revolution, which is revolution eats its young. And so I think this is what's going on. And if you follow these figures who were involved in this, or even if you talk to them when they're not necessarily these podcasters and talk radio hosts, but just people within the MAGA Movement, it is like, I don't know, like a dopamine hit, right? There is something that vivifies them, that excites them, that gives them a certain sense of purpose. So it's almost like an addiction. ([Time 1:05:31](https://share.snipd.com/snip/5f0dbda1-ac46-415e-b5f6-ef72a6f9f3b2)) - **Christian Identity Became A Political Add‑On** - Evangelical identity often became a political add-on rather than the governing allegiance. - Wehner argues many profess devotion to Christ while their actual core identities remain shaped by culture, family, and politics. Transcript: Peter Wehner For sure. And I've talked to a lot of pastors, people in ministry over the years, and they would concede that, I think. And many of them are horrified by what's happened. They're not quite sure how we got to this spot, where it got out of control. And they really don't know in real time what to do about it. I've had a lot of conversations with pastors. Skye Jethani Well, I'm curious, what kind of things are you hearing from them? I mean, beyond, I don't know how we got here. Is it self-reflective at all, or is it all just, it's out of our control? Peter Wehner No, I mean, for a number of them that I've had conversations with, it is self-reflective. How did we get here? What's the role of the church? What didn't we see? It's a kind of failure of a catechesis. It was a failure to shape the dispositions, the spiritual, moral, temperamental disposition. ([Time 1:09:18](https://share.snipd.com/snip/eb5b65d1-3f78-42bf-994d-6dc8a70793f7)) - **Cultivate Courage Over Congregational Comfort** - Do cultivate courage to speak prophetically even when it risks congregation conflict. - Phil Vischer and Peter Wehner both advise pastors to prioritize discipling civic responsibilities and loving neighbors over political silence. Transcript: Skye Jethani Right. And I think one of the lost virtues that we need to recapture for those called to ministry is the importance of courage. And the reality that you may stand in front of a congregation every Sunday, and they may turn around and want to chop your head off for what you do, but eventually you're going to be standing Before an audience of one. And what are you going to say? It was too political? I agree. I don't think pastors should be preaching about politics and certainly not partisanship, but we are called to preach about loving our neighbors. And part of being a follower and disciple of Jesus in the 21st century in a country like the United States is also discipling people in their civic responsibilities. We have the right to vote. We have freedom of speech. We have the right to assembly. We have all these things that other Christians and prior generations didn't have. And at least a lot of white evangelical churches, I would argue, are doing virtually nothing to form and disciple people in those responsibilities as followers of Jesus. I think black churches do it much better. Some other churches do it much better. Some other traditions do it better. But we've inherited this idea that if anything is public or remotely political, well, then it's off the table. What do you do when more and more things are called... I mean, we went through a season where the NFL was politics. Do I take a knee or not? So if everything suddenly becomes political, then you're removing one topic after another the church isn't allowed to talk about. ([Time 1:22:01](https://share.snipd.com/snip/cfda05bd-0025-491f-bfbe-3977fb4cd1c7)) - **Pastors Ask What Would Make You Speak Out** - Pastors should ask whether any future action by a political leader would compel them to speak out. - Wehner urges clergy to balance courage with discernment and consider costs, context, and non‑pulpit approaches before acting. Transcript: Peter Wehner Are having with themselves. And I wrote an essay in The Atlantic in which I posed two pastors. I said something to the effect of, I think increasingly for the next three years, pastors should begin to ask themselves this question. Is there any line that Donald Trump can cross, any conceivable line that he can cross in which you would feel like you would be compelled to speak out? We know that creating an insurrection is not one of them. There are some other lines that can be crossed, but we're running out of lines in which to do that. I would say courage for sure, and that's one of the great virtues. You need to conjoin that to discernment. Yeah, right. You need to have an understanding of your relationship with the congregation, the nature of the congregation, costs and benefits. How effective is it going to be? I very much agree with you. I think this is a decades-long problem, which is a lot of the training, the shaping of sensibilities wasn't going on. And you're not going to fix it in a day or a week or a month or a year. So this is a long-term problem. But the issue in the here and now is what do pastors do and say? And in my experience, it's facts and circumstances. Tell me about you and your ([Time 1:23:50](https://share.snipd.com/snip/027b2b64-758b-4823-b6d2-75a7c921a6c8))