716: The President vs. The Pope and Bri Stensrud  🔗 **Source:** [716: The President vs. The Pope and Bri Stensrud](https://share.snipd.com/episode/743863aa-0598-47b0-8a30-70aa1f81ed97) ## Highlights - **Evangelical Rhetoric Paved Way For Messianic Self-Image** - MAGA Christian leaders long framed Donald Trump as a messianic, Cyrus-like figure. - When Trump posted an AI image portraying himself in a Jesus-like healing scene, critics condemned him even though they had used similar exalted language for years. Transcript: Phil Vischer And then Sunday evening, our president posted a AI generated, it looks like, painting portraying himself as a Jesus-like figure healing a sick man who apparently represents America With the glowing power of his divine hands. Skye Jethani I thought the sick man kind of looked like Franklin Graham. A little bit. Phil Vischer Yeah. Yeah. And there's what's surrounding him. If you haven't seen the picture, Google it. Trump healing America, I guess is what we might. It's trippy. It is trippy. It is trippy. There's military people and a nurse all looking at him lovingly. Skye Jethani All white people, by the way. That's true. Speaker 4 You're right. Skye Jethani Yeah. And then there's like weird amalgams of eagles and fighter planes. Speaker 4 And there's like people in the sky? Phil Vischer Yeah. Yeah. And the original, because that's actually a changed version of the person who posted it There were three soldiers above him. Speaker 4 Oh, like who had died. Phil Vischer I don't know. Well, they're like up in- They're ascending. Yeah. They're ascending to heaven. And then whoever posted it for him at the White House changed it to be with angel wings, the one in the middle, which makes it look like- Oh, it does look a little creepy. Weird- The whole thing is creepy. Demon thing. So now some people said immediately, oh, I bet as Christian fans won't even say anything about this. They were wrong. They were wrong. People did say so much about it, including MAGA folks, that he pulled it down. This is Monday as we're recording this. It was pulled down a few hours ago and he was interviewed and said, I thought it was me as a doctor. Doctors don't usually wear red shawls. He said he thought it was like a Red Cross thing. Like, you know, is me as a doctor healing America. Miraculously. With the glow of my divine hands. Right. Speaker 4 And extending a glowing hand. Phil Vischer All right. Yeah. I have thoughts. What's going on? Here's what I don't understand. Is he going mad right before our eyes? No. Okay. Skye Jethani I keep hearing these arguments that he's got cognitive decline or he has dementia or he's... I don't see that big a difference. Yeah. Between, again, what we've seen for the last 10 years, maybe there are fewer filters, meaning fewer people around him that are causing him to question what he might do or say or post. But I don't see any huge difference. Phil Vischer He also... He's definitely emboldened in what he will say publicly. Right. Skye Jethani Which, to be fair, most second-term presidents are. Phil Vischer Yeah. But he's not your typical second-term president. Kind of shows you what is inside there. Okay. That orange melon. Skye Jethani Here's the part I don't quite understand. Okay. You're right. There were all these MAGA influencers and these Christian MAGA people who came out when they saw this image and said, this is blasphemous. Yes. And they called Trump to apologize, repent, take it down, whatever it might be. I don't think it's blasphemous. And I don't... Well, here's... Let me explain why. Okay. Last 10 years at least, we have heard MAGA evangelical leaders and influencers refer to Donald Trump as God's chosen leader, as God's anointed, like King David, who though he had a flawed Character, was nonetheless a man after God's own heart and used by God for all these good things. They have talked about him being America's savior. They've talked about him as a messianic figure like Cyrus. This is the rhetoric that has been pouring out of MAGA Christian influencers for a decade. Now, somehow, all that was fine. None of that was blasphemous. But the moment that Trump depicts himself in a messianic way, that's over the line? And that's blasphemous when he is simply depicting what they have been saying about him for the last decade? Well, people, up until Paula White, people weren't comparing him to Jesus. To Jesus. And this appears to be him. But they're calling him a messianic figure. And I would argue that picture is not him as Jesus. I would argue that picture is him as a messianic figure. Phil Vischer Okay. Or the great physician or something. Yeah. Skye Jethani I mean, if he had a crown of thorns or something, clearly Jesus referenced. He's dressed like, I don't know, some kind of old Hebrew, I guess. Phil Vischer There are a lot of, there's a lot of art of Jesus dressed exactly. I understand. Skye Jethani But my point is they have been using the same titles for Jesus for him. He's a savior. He's messianic. He's chosen by God. He dotted all this stuff for the last 10 years. And they were fine with that. ([Time 0:18:30](https://share.snipd.com/snip/677586d8-1f2e-4df5-ab11-8997fbb8a3ba)) - **Pope's Palm Sunday Statement Reframes Wartime Prayers** - Pope Leo's Palm Sunday homily emphasized that Jesus rejects war and will not hear prayers used to justify violence. - Karen Park and Skye Jethani interpret imprecatory Psalms through Augustine: these Psalms aim at internal spiritual enemies, not sanctioning human-directed violence. Transcript: Phil Vischer Peter's Square, he said, brothers and sisters, this is our God, Jesus, King of Peace, who rejects war, whom no one can use to justify war. He does not listen to the prayers of those who wage war, but rejects them, saying, even though you make many prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are full of blood. This was possibly coming to contrast our secretary of defense, Pete Hegseth's prayer that he gave a couple of weeks before then, which included parts like this. Let every round bullet find its mark against the enemies of righteousness in our great nation. Give them wisdom, our soldiers. Give them wisdom in every decision, endurance for the trial ahead, unbreakable unity, and overwhelming violence of action against those who deserve no mercy. So, it's a contrast. Skye Jethani It's right up there with the Lord's Prayer. Phil Vischer It's a contrast. So, okay. So there's a piece in the National Catholic Review saying, okay, there's a huge difference between how Pete Hegseth is using Christianity and Pope Leo and how they view this. Let's dive into it. In the aftermath of this is by Karen Park, historian of American Catholicism, writing for the National Catholic Register, in case you want to look it up at home and follow along. In the aftermath of U.S. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth's recent Pentagon prayer and Pope Leo XIV's Palm Sunday homily, much of the public commentary has settled into a familiar framework. A conservative official invoked God in the context of war, and a supposedly liberal pope rebuked him. The exchange is then cast as a political disagreement, or at most as an instance of religion being deployed on both sides of a geopolitical conflict. This account is inadequate. What is unfolding is not a political dispute, but a theological one, and its terms are ancient, not modern. And then she says, we need to turn to St. Augustine. Oh, and that makes Caitlin's ears perk up. Yeah. You had me at August. To begin, it's essential to note that Hegsest Pentagon prayer was not original. It was someone else had used it first, a chaplain in the army. It was actually a compilation largely made up of verses from Hebrew scripture, most heavily borrowing from what are known as the imprecatory Psalms, prayers that call for divine judgment On enemies, sometimes in violent terms. He began his prayer with Almighty God who trains our hands for war and our fingers for battle. That's Psalm 144. He asked God to break the teeth of the ungodly, which repurposes Psalm 3 and Psalm 58. Pour out your wrath upon those who plot vain things and blow them away like chaff before the wind, referencing a lot of Psalms. And she says the imprecatory Psalms are among the most difficult texts in the Bible, but we've been translating them, or Christian tradition has been interpreting them similarly Since the first century. And this is where it gets interesting. And she goes back to Augustine and says, basically, Augustine interpreted the imprecatory Psalms not as endorsements of hatred and cruelty. He says, for the simple reason that they would not then be from God. So Augustine interpreted them in a spiritual way based on the concept that God is a God of love. He never wants us to hate or to kill other humans. So to interpret these correctly, Augustine said, these are spiritual. So the call for violence does not refer to military battles or human enemies, but to the enemies inside the human soul, sin, injustice, and the disordered loves that deform our will. ([Time 0:30:51](https://share.snipd.com/snip/36acb4e9-382f-430e-abc5-ba7d65ee3096)) - **Augustine's Spiritual Reading Of Imprecatory Psalms** - The imprecatory Psalms are historically complex and often expressive laments, not prescriptive commands for Christians to execute vengeance. - Augustine read these spiritually: they target sin and disordered loves within the soul, not literal military action. Transcript: Phil Vischer It was actually a compilation largely made up of verses from Hebrew scripture, most heavily borrowing from what are known as the imprecatory Psalms, prayers that call for divine judgment On enemies, sometimes in violent terms. He began his prayer with Almighty God who trains our hands for war and our fingers for battle. That's Psalm 144. He asked God to break the teeth of the ungodly, which repurposes Psalm 3 and Psalm 58. Pour out your wrath upon those who plot vain things and blow them away like chaff before the wind, referencing a lot of Psalms. And she says the imprecatory Psalms are among the most difficult texts in the Bible, but we've been translating them, or Christian tradition has been interpreting them similarly Since the first century. And this is where it gets interesting. And she goes back to Augustine and says, basically, Augustine interpreted the imprecatory Psalms not as endorsements of hatred and cruelty. He says, for the simple reason that they would not then be from God. So Augustine interpreted them in a spiritual way based on the concept that God is a God of love. He never wants us to hate or to kill other humans. So to interpret these correctly, Augustine said, these are spiritual. So the call for violence does not refer to military battles or human enemies, but to the enemies inside the human soul, sin, injustice, and the disordered loves that deform our will. ([Time 0:33:12](https://share.snipd.com/snip/c6f00884-8a04-426a-bcd9-95a1aef7db97)) - **Use The Gospels As The Primary Hermeneutical Lens** - Anchor Christian ethics in Jesus' fullest revelation: read the Gospels, focus on the cross and the Sermon on the Mount. - Use those texts as the primary lens when assessing Old Testament violence or national policies. Transcript: Skye Jethani Wants to go first? You. Phil Vischer Me? Yeah, you. Skye Jethani I would, I mean, obviously it depends who you're talking to and their level of sophistication and all that kind of stuff. But I would begin with, we root our faith, as Caitlin said earlier, in the clearest and fullest revelation of who God is, which is Jesus himself and specifically his self-sacrificial Death and resurrection. And so anything that doesn't square with what Jesus said and did is not the way of Jesus. And if you want to know the way of Jesus, first read the Gospels, look at the cross and the resurrection, and then focus on the Sermon on the Mount. And if you can square destroying civilizations based on what Jesus said, then we're not following the same Jesus. ([Time 0:48:16](https://share.snipd.com/snip/6c054bdf-0f70-4c13-980b-689fde186781)) - **Bri's Journey From Pro-Life Activism To Immigration Work** - Bri Stensrud began in pro-life advocacy at Focus on the Family and later joined immigration work after an immersive trip to the southern border. - That border experience convinced her immigration concerns are rooted in biblical conviction, not partisan politics. Transcript: Bri Stensrud So I was brought into this work seven years ago, specifically immigration work. But before that, I grew up in the church. I'm an evangelical free church pastor's kid. I went to Dallas Theological Seminary. I started working really in human dignity spaces when I was working at Focus on the Family, which seems like a very, very long time ago. But I was in the pro-life movement. I was attending March for Life rallies and protests in D.C. I was supporting pregnancy resource centers and medical clinics all across the country. And then I started moving into adoption and foster care and recruiting families for kids who are languishing in foster care and speaking in churches about that issue. Then I got involved in serving in a homeless shelter for about eight years in my local community. And then I got invited by World Relief and the National Immigration Forum to get involved in immigration. And that was being invited on an immersive trip to the Southern border. And that's where all of this came really alive to me. And I was asked to just jump in and get involved and to help attach biblical confidence to evangelical women's perspective and compassion in this space. Skye Jethani Okay. So I'm assuming for the years when you were at Focus on the Family and you were dealing with abortion, adoption, caring for women and children in various capacities, and you went to churches And spoke about that, everyone thought, this is great. Oh, yeah. I mean, that's where it's at. Right. I'm assuming you didn't get a lot of criticism. None. When seven years ago, you began working on this question of immigrants, refugees, things like that. Was the reception different? Bri Stensrud Oh, 100%. I mean, I was on a slippery slope to being a liberal. I was losing my faith. I must be deconstructing in some way. Skye Jethani And what explanation did you have for why caring about immigrants was responded to so differently than caring for children, the unborn? Bri Stensrud Because it was a liberal political issue. Like you're getting into immigration. That must mean that you become a Democrat somehow. Skye Jethani So ethics are coded politically instead of biblically. Bri Stensrud Yes. Yes. I mean, there was no biblical. I mean, every time I would talk to someone, I would even ask pastors, I'd say, does the Bible say anything about immigration? I've just never been discipled in on the theology of migration or anything like that. And numerous pastors that I would ask, including my own father, would be, he said to me, you know, it's really a political issue. Immigration is really a political issue. And of course, I'm a very curious person by nature. And so I'm like, I think it's more than that. It's got to be more than that. There are other really incredible Christians who've been in this work for a very long time that say that it's more. And so then that really just sent me on a journey and it was lonely and isolating and I've lost friends. I've lost like personal social standing. And yet I know what the Bible says. You can't prove it to me otherwise. I know what God says about people and sojourners are so very clearly included in God's heart for people. ([Time 0:54:31](https://share.snipd.com/snip/5cdcb472-de99-4f41-b3d8-b855cdcc0d4f)) - **Evangelical Women Want Both Security And Humanity** - Women of Welcome members reject binary politics: they want both secure borders and humane treatment of migrants. - The group's research shows nuance among conservative women who seek efficient, compassionate immigration systems rather than partisan extremes. Transcript: Bri Stensrud Well, like I said, the women of welcome community is more conservative to moderate politically and theologically minded. So it's a purple community. I'd say half the community voted for this administration and the other half didn't. And so what you end up having to shepherd and to steward is a lot of charitability, not uniformity, but unity in this body of Christian women who are desperate to get this right. And there is a high level of ambivalence. The study that you're referencing that was conducted just really about what's going on in the women of welcome space, you have women who want safe and secure borders, but they also want Humane treatment of people. We talk about this all the time in the community that these things are not mutually exclusive concepts. Skye Jethani Okay. Let me interrupt there for a second because some of the polling I've seen has shown that that's basically what most Americans want. Bri Stensrud Yes. Skye Jethani This is not shocking that people want secure borders and they want their neighbors documented or undocumented treated with human dignity. Right. Why is this so difficult for our politicians to figure out? Bri Stensrud I mean, one of the things that came out of this study of evangelical women in the women of welcome community was, is what do you think about these policies? And they would say, I feel like it's necessary, but it's chaotic and it's cruel. So you're like, well, so then is, so what do you mean about the function, about the way that this is happening? And so I think when we have deeper discussions in the community, what you hear women saying is, I want safety. I want violent criminals gone, but I want to keep contributors. And that's the nuance that is missing and that the administration keeps ricocheting off of. They think sledgehammer, we want scalpel. Skye Jethani And the critique of the Biden administration's handling of immigration is there just wasn't enough security because the border was too- It was too porous. Bri Stensrud It was also, I mean, the dirty secret in immigration spaces during the Biden administration was, is that even the strongest immigration activists were whispering, we can't handle This. This is too much. And I would always say to people, what I think is really the problem, people aren't the problem. It's the pipeline. It's the pipeline. The pipeline needs to be efficient. It needs to have valves. It needs to be able to go to different things. So it just doesn't combust and break. We can't take everybody. This is the thing, is when you talk with nuance about what's really needed to make this effective and safe and efficient and humane, people are all generally in agreement. ([Time 0:58:15](https://share.snipd.com/snip/777adc6c-6162-4ac5-a07b-d503f599c7ed)) - **Advocating For Immigrants Carries Social Costs For Conservative Women** - Women in Women of Welcome face social costs for advocating migrant dignity, including family estrangement and criticism from conservative networks. - The community provides private, charitable spaces for pastor's wives and women to find biblical confidence and mutual support. Transcript: Bri Stensrud Is a high cost. And I think some who are more further along in their journey and they don't have any question about what's going on in immigration and they are more on kind of the activist side. There's not a lot of grace and charitability for those who are kind of newer and starting out on this journey and trying to find their voice and also trying to find their biblical confidence In this. But when you put these groups together and these ladies together, and we have a private group where we foster conversations in order to really help us figure out how do we work through The practice of having a better conversation that is highly charitable and full of compassion, because we're both after the same thing. We want to treat immigrants as Jesus would have us treat them. And so you get two of these ladies in the same private group having a conversation. There are some very heated conversations that happen, but there also is, it's one of our kind of community rules, is there has to be a deep level and commitment to charitability for us To be able to find unity to move forward together. So we have ladies who will message in our group and they will say, you know, is anyone else feeling so incredibly lonely? Does anybody else, the minute they say something nice about immigrants or they mentioned a policy that they're questioning, their husband just flies off, off the right. Like, even talk about it in my own home. My daughter won't talk to me anymore. Does anyone else feel like this? And you will have dozens and dozens and dozens of women say, yes, it's so hard. I can't even talk to my sister anymore. It's very hard for me to go out to coffee with my best friend. I'm feeling the Lord stirring something in me and other people that I deeply love in my family, in my social group, and even in my church don't understand. And I feel like, am I crazy? And this is where the Women of Welcome community comes in and says, no, you're not crazy. The Lord's just doing something in you and it's okay to be first. It's okay. Now that doesn't mean all this other stuff gets really easy, but I will say that if you do have a commitment to compassion and charitability, and if you are trying to exercise this love Of neighbor, your husband is your neighbor, your best friend is your neighbor. So you want to bring them in in a way that's not combative. ([Time 1:03:37](https://share.snipd.com/snip/8eeb14fe-b866-4fb5-9c15-d0cdc0590e5f)) - **Bring People Into Proximity To Transform Opinions** - Use proximity to change hearts: introduce pastors and congregants to immigrants so the issue becomes personal and not abstract. - Bri recommends bringing people to the border or local immigrant communities to foster empathy and biblical conviction. Transcript: Bri Stensrud Proximity is breaking through. I remember asking a pastor, when are we going to talk about this? When are we going to talk about this? And he said, can you introduce me to some people? And I'm thinking, you are connected to everybody under the sun. Why do you need me? And what he was asking for is he was asking for me to get him in closer proximity to people so that he could bear witness himself. That's such a big thing in Christian circles. I want to bear witness to it. It's why so many women want to go to the border when women of all goes. I want to see it for myself because proximity is powerful and it makes things personal and even for pastors. And so pastors have millions of people coming in and out of their offices, and yet they are also discipling to who the audience is, right? So sometimes you're going to have to provide experience of proximity so that things become personal for your pastor. And that's okay. I mean, sadly, that's the case, but that's okay. Take it upon yourself to say, all right, how can I bring people into proximity that's going to be life-changing for them? And so I see proximity breaking through. And that's what we're really called to as Christians. ([Time 1:09:28](https://share.snipd.com/snip/272a87e4-2c71-4492-8587-ba4ccea7acec)) - **Claims That Empathy Is Toxic Often Serve Political Ends** - 'Toxic empathy' rhetoric is often politically motivated to police which compassion is acceptable within partisan tribes. - Bri contends genuine compassion is prophetic and God-given, and labeling it manipulative is itself political propaganda. Transcript: Bri Stensrud I think that is manipulative political propaganda, to be perfectly honest. Compassion is God-given. And you might push back on me this, but I say to the women of welcome community, compassion is not political. It's actually meant to be prophetic. Every time we see God showing mercy, every time we see Jesus showing mercy or showing up and the next best thing he has is compassion, right? Jesus showed up and had compassion on the crowd. Jesus showed up and he had compassion on the woman. He turned and faced that person, had compassion. It's because he's actually showing people around him and his disciples, this is how the law is fulfilled. The law, he's always pointing back to the Old Testament and connecting that. Like these are a set of ethics and principles and guidelines, but it's actually fulfilled by you meeting people where they're at, showing compassion. This is a God-given characteristic. So of course, absolutely, there have been people whose compassion has been manipulated. Their empathy has been manipulated. But most of what I hear coming from that kind of camp of empathy is toxic is really politically motivated in a way that steers you towards the Republican Party, really, and that the Republican Party can do no wrong and all the Democrats do is manipulate you for shepherds are for sale, all of this nonsense, right? ([Time 1:12:47](https://share.snipd.com/snip/e5416001-5bb6-42ac-b7bd-e50b7a42b891)) - **Create Off Ramps From The Political Highway** - Churches must build 'off ramps' from partisan media by offering theological pit stops and clear biblical markers during discipleship. - Bri urges pastors to create sermons and resources that give congregants doctrinal tools to resist cable-news formation. Transcript: Bri Stensrud Hey, this exit you could get off. The church and pastors in particular, they need to start building off ramps, pit stops from that highway. I'm not saying, yes, I'd love for you to compete in that way. But I mean, we have to think realistically about how do we actually allow for people to get off of that freeway, right? So I would love for the church to get invested in construction on that freeway. I would like to see some markers. I would like to see some cones. I would like to see some off ramps. I would like to see some pit stops. So you can speed and buy and you can see, oh, there's a sign. That's from my pastor. Oh, that's from, I heard that last week. And then you go off and you get the pit stop and you get filled with what is theologically correct? What is the framework in which I need to be thinking? So that when you get back on the highway, which you will for the rest of the week, you have these kind of markers in your mind about, oh, maybe I shouldn't be in this lane anymore. And then eventually, I mean, I would love it if it was built tomorrow, right? But we got a lot of construction to do, right? I'd like us to occupy more than just one lane on that highway. I'd like us to maybe get off that highway altogether, you know? ([Time 1:23:45](https://share.snipd.com/snip/754a703e-0363-496f-a429-d58b470f7167))