A Guide to Being Brave in Relationships  ## Metadata - Author: [[TED Radio Hour]] - Full Title: A Guide to Being Brave in Relationships - Category: #podcasts - URL: https://share.snipd.com/episode/25c3664a-f695-47bc-a57d-68c7460cbacb ## Document Notes ## Highlights - **Ask To Hear, Not To Fix** - Use seven simple prompts: "Tell me more," "Go on," and "What else?" to invite someone to unpack their feelings. - Stay quiet and absorb rather than solving the problem for them so they can untangle it themselves. Transcript: Kelly Corrigan What else? Those are the seven words. And you can get pretty far in life just with those seven words. Manoush Zomorodi She spent years talking about families, her own and many others, on her PBS show, her podcast, and in her four best-selling books. And Kelly thinks that when it comes to a crisis, that is when we most need that quiet, soft kind of bravery. Kelly Corrigan Inside every crisis you think you might be ready for are a hundred dirty surprises that are not in the playbook. Manoush Zomorodi Here she is on the TED stage. Kelly Corrigan I had stage 3 cancer in my 30s, and I can tell you that following the chemo schedule didn't take nearly as much courage as admitting to my husband that sex felt less sexy after my boobs, Which were once a real strong suit for me, were made weird and uneven by a surgeon's knife. This bravery I'm talking about might even be better understood if you look at the smaller moments of injury in family life when there's not really an answer, or it might be your fault, Or it might remind you of something you'd rather forget, or because people are so suggestible, and the wrong tone or expression or phrasing might somehow make things worse. Say your kid was dropped from a group text. They were in it, they mattered, they belonged, and then poof. Or your husband blew the big deal at work, or your mom won't wear the diapers that would really help her get through Mahjong on Wednesdays. And how should we calibrate the exquisite bravery to respond productively when someone in our family looks at us and says, do I know you? I weigh myself before and after every meal. I hear voices. I steal. I'm using again. I bought a gun. I stopped taking the medication. I can't stop making online bets. Sometimes I wonder if more life is really worth all this effort. Bravery is the great guts to move closer to the wound as composed as a war nurse holding eye contact and saying these seven words, tell me more, what else, go on. That's how the brave shine. That's all they do. They say, tell me more. What else? Go on. ([Time 0:05:10](https://share.snipd.com/snip/9936ce76-18b8-42a5-8d64-6064845a054d)) - **Last Conversations With Her Father** - At her father's deathbed, Kelly asked "Tell me more" and listened as he unloaded decades-old small regrets. - Her patient listening let him say "I'm good, Levy" and rest that day. Transcript: Kelly Corrigan So my dad was just days away from dying and he was completely willing to have me sit in bed with him, to hold hands with him for hours. Like, he was telling me in the way that he was responding to my outreach that, like, this is it and we should, sorry, we should gobble up this time that we have together. And he felt more or less at peace. He was 84 years old. He'd had a spectacular time while he was here. But there was this day where he felt kind of agitated, and you could only see it if you were very quiet and very tuned in, which I consider to be an act of bravery. To not rush around and be moving things around on his nightstand and telling him to go to sleep and bossing people around, but rather just sliding in next to them and mirroring their mood. And so I was looking at his forehead and it was all wrinkled up and tight. And he said, oh, lovey, I should have gone to see your Uncle Tommy more. So Uncle Tommy is my mother's brother. He died at 46 of a brain tumor. My dad loved this guy. And it had been a long time. It had been maybe 40 years since Tommy died. But right then and there, he had this discomfort with his failure to give more to Uncle Tommy. And instead of saying, oh, come on, you are an amazing brother-in to him, I said, tell me more. And he said, I should have named a kid after my lacrosse coach. And it was like, what? Why? Tell me more. And he said he was so important to me. I went to college on a scholarship, and I almost blew it. I was partying too much. I didn't take it seriously. I was late to practice. And the guy took me by the shoulders and said, you got one more week on this team, or I'm sending you home. And he shaped me right up. And it was like, what else? Like, is there more? And of course there was. And so we spent the day reviewing these little regrets that he had that were so, to my mind, so innocent. I mean, it was almost like the mood of him was that he was going to tell me he had cheated on my mother or that he had an illegitimate child or that he had embezzled. But the fact of it was very small to me, to my eye. But, of course, that goes to this larger point, which is it doesn't really matter what it looks like to my eye. Like, whatever's weighing on you is weighing on you. And it was like, I'm going to hear you. I'm going to absorb this thing with you. I'm going to mirror your seriousness about it. And maybe that can let you rest. And it did. And he leaned back on his pillow and said, I'm good, Levy. ([Time 0:16:00](https://share.snipd.com/snip/00e3230d-ad41-46e5-b30e-afed00bb63e0)) - **Bodies Reveal When We Can't Hear** - Couples' physiological responses (heart rate, sweating) reveal when communication breaks down. - Flooding, marked by high heart rate, causes tunnel vision and prevents listening and problem-solving. Transcript: John Gottman Especially when we're in disagreement? Yeah, fighting is very normal. It's very natural. Just by virtue of the fact that each of us has a different brain from the other person, we've been raised differently. Julie Gottman We actually need conflict because we're not attracted to people who are just like us. And we have to keep understanding our partner as we change and grow. Manoush Zomorodi John and Julie Gottman have been married for over 35 years. And they are very well known for being pioneers in the field of couples psychology, specifically researching why some couples stay together and others don't. It all goes back to 1986, when John and a colleague created a laboratory to study couples at the University of Washington. Julie joined them soon after. They called it the Love Lab. Julie Gottman We wanted to see whether we could predict the future of relationships. John Gottman Here's what they would do. Couples would come into the lab, sit down, typically facing one another, and we would ask them to think about a problem that they hadn't solved yet, that they wanted to talk about. Manoush Zomorodi The Gottmans interviewed couples over the course of weeks, months, even years. But there was something unique about their method. The conversations were recorded, and each person was hooked up to monitors to measure heart rate, blood velocity. Julie Gottman Skin conduct and sweating from the palms of the hands, respiration and a variety of other signals. John Gottman And they were synchronized to the video time code. Analyzing what their facial expressions, their body movements, their words and their tone of voice all conveyed. Manoush Zomorodi After collecting reams of data, the Gottmans started to see patterns. For example, if someone got upset and stopped responding in the conversation. John Gottman Their heart rates were typically over 100 beats a minute. They might be breathing very shallowly. They are basically having great difficulty hearing the other person, interpreting what that other person is saying, and creatively problem-solving. Manoush Zomorodi Over the years, they would follow up with couples and track whether they stayed together. John Gottman And we found, surprisingly, ([Time 0:21:10](https://share.snipd.com/snip/0d2142d2-0f1c-4d9f-ae80-199cc9a6f373)) - **Use A Calm Break To Reset** - When you notice flooding, call a time-out and agree on when to resume the talk so your partner doesn't feel rejected. - Distract and calm yourself (read, music, TV) until you can return and engage clearly. Transcript: John Gottman As you recognize there's flooding in the room, you say, I think we need to take a break. And you say, when you will come back to continue the conversation so that the other person doesn't feel rejected. On the break, you distract yourself by reading, by listening to music, maybe watching TV, so your body has a chance to calm down. And then you come back at the designated time you agreed to, and typically people look like they've had a brain transplant when they sit down and talk again. ([Time 0:26:10](https://share.snipd.com/snip/b5051dca-7450-4f25-813f-2ba67179b69a)) - **Begin With A Softened Startup** - Start sensitive topics with a softened startup that states your feeling and invites the other's input. - Ask open questions to give your partner choice and avoid blame-driven criticism. Transcript: John Gottman Have said instead is what we call a softened startup. Let's say the fellow's name is Dan. So Dan, I'm feeling a little anxious about my parents coming for this weekend. I really want them to be comfortable. So how would you feel about our giving our bedroom to them while we sleep on the couch in the living room just for the weekend? That would be an opening question that gives Dan some freedom of choice. Yeah. But, you know, he could really improve the interaction as well. Julie Gottman You know, if she says something like, you really haven't tried for three years, you know, he can say, gee, that's a really strong reaction to how I've treated your parents. I want to hear more about that. And give me a chance to really understand what your feelings are. So both people can play a role in getting to mutual understanding. ([Time 0:29:40](https://share.snipd.com/snip/f6b6722e-fe5a-4b3a-a5bc-d49a9f508bcc)) - **Fights Hide Deeper Dreams** - Many recurring fights stem from deeper, unspoken dreams and beliefs beneath positions. - Exploring the 'dreams within conflict' turns perpetual problems into understanding and compromise. Transcript: John Gottman It's called the Dream Within Conflict exercise. We have a series of six questions that really draw out the subterranean levels of how somebody feels about a particular point of view. Julie Gottman You know, people are poised to fight one another because underneath their position, there are a lot of very important beliefs and hidden dreams. 69% of all relationship conflict problems are perpetual, which means that they never go away. And so we learn that conflict really mostly needs to be managed rather than solved. John Gottman Fighting to understand means taking a conversation about an issue and going much deeper to understand what's beneath your partner's position on the issue. That builds the connection. There was a woman who we will call Jenny, who was adamantly opposed to getting a dog. But her partner, Allison, was all for it. So they decided to try the dreams within conflict conversation. When Allison asked Jenny, so what is your ideal dream here regarding this issue? You know, if we don't have a dog, we're not tied down, we're not burdened. Julie Gottman We're free to travel the world together. That's what I really want. Now listen to what Allison said. John Gottman You know, I see getting a dog as a practice run for having kids and having a family. Julie Gottman That's what I want. Beneath the surface, it was about leading a life of adventure and travel versus staying home and raising a family. You generate such a level of understanding that then they can compromise. Let's find the solution that honors your dreams and my dream. ([Time 0:31:22](https://share.snipd.com/snip/b0edc3cc-e6a0-48b9-b603-84e3c40f4321)) - **Better Fighting Builds Deeper Love** - Doing conflict well yields a deeper, more forgiving love that recognizes each other's full humanity. - Research links successful long-term relationships to longer life, better health, and improved outcomes for children. Transcript: Manoush Zomorodi If we are brave enough to get in there and do the work, what do you see on the other side? Julie Gottman So the payoff is that we can have a lifelong love. And research has shown that when you can do that, you actually live an average of 15 to 17 years longer, you're healthier, and your kids turn out better. And their relationships when they grow up turn out better as well. John Gottman What I've seen in doing couple therapy for 30 years now is a different kind of love. It's much more profound. It's deeper. It much more recognizes the humanity of the other partner as well as your own humanity. Once you've seen one person in their fullness, including the cracks, you tend to be more forgiving, I think, of other people. And look at this world, Manoush. This world is split and fractured, and we desperately need a little bit more love and peace in the world. ([Time 0:38:13](https://share.snipd.com/snip/690d90d1-487a-4c96-8f11-bdd2d61fe41d)) - **Dr. Ruth's Chosen Family** - Dr. Ruth used a warm, proactive style to collect chosen family after losing her birth family in the Holocaust. - Allison Gilbert became both a friend and collaborator through that intentional generosity. Transcript: Allison Gilbert She can help. She had something to say. And the article that I was assigned was to report on this mission. And then as soon as the article published, it's like both of our guards went down. And before I really realized what was happening, she was enveloping me. And what I have come to understand is like her web of love and friendship. That seems, now that I look back, ever growing. And I just found myself fortunate to be in that space. And what I found was that warmth you heard through the radio. Tracy, I think that you should find yourself a new man, okay? That magic that captivated TV watchers when she went on television. Julie Gottman But you have changed sex for America. Allison Gilbert Don't you tell me that it's less good now. Julie Gottman No, it's better now. Everyone knows it. Allison Gilbert That to me was still present in her apartment, in her living room, despite her being, when I met her, mostly confined to a wheelchair. Manoush Zomorodi Do you feel that you are a good friend to others? This is a recording of Allison and Dr. Ruth in the last few months of her life, before she died at the age of 96 in 2024. Allison Gilbert Not only do I think that I'm a good friend, I'm a superb friend. I'm like the best friend that anybody could have. Manoush Zomorodi Allison became Dr. Ruth's collaborator on her final book, The Joy of Connections. Since ([Time 0:42:40](https://share.snipd.com/snip/13c5a643-3063-4593-bb5f-f54ef96dfd78)) - **Book The Next Meeting** - End conversations by asking "When will I see you again?" and schedule a specific date to signal you want the relationship to continue. - Be proactive and assign meetings in a calendar to build reliable connection. Transcript: Allison Gilbert She would end nearly every conversation when I was packing up to go, and she would ask me the same question. When will I see you again? And that was my cue to take her paper calendar and to assign my name to a date and a specific time. And it's a magical question. When will I see you again? It communicates so much that she wanted to see me again, which made me, of course, feel special that there was a burgeoning friendship. But it also showcases her real interest in being proactive about her life, that she was not going to leave to chance what she wanted. ([Time 0:47:20](https://share.snipd.com/snip/fee74349-4817-4585-aa9a-4e25939d3e4d)) - **Grow A Broader Friendcabulary** - Expand your 'friendcabulary' to include acquaintances and casual contacts instead of seeking a single BFF. - Use small interactions—hellos, brief favors, asking for an egg—to create opportunities for deeper connection. Transcript: Manoush Zomorodi Busyness, not just busyness. Love that. But she also says that you need to broaden your friendcabulary. Allison Gilbert I love that, right? Because she didn't want to give people the wrong idea that, oh my gosh, I need a best friend. I need a BFF. If I don't have that one person, I'm doomed. You can have an acquaintance. You can have someone who perhaps you see infrequently, but what you do together is an experience that you feel broadens and deepens. I loved visiting her in her apartment building in New York City, because when we would go outside, she would know everybody. They would engage her in conversation, but she would not let them go either. These were just incredible brief conversations, because even if we engage with strangers, just a simple hello, it helps us develop a sense of connection in community with other people. Manoush Zomorodi She was also kind of tricky. Like, there's another tip where she says feign needs. Like, ask the neighbor for a cup of milk instead of going out to buy it, just so that you can, like, have an excuse to talk to them. Allison Gilbert How can you not love Dr. Ruth? Sure, you may have a carton of eggs in the fridge, but if you're making a cake and you feel like you want to have an excuse to maybe have a conversation with someone next door, so what? Ask them for an egg. I mean, who is that going to hurt? ([Time 0:48:30](https://share.snipd.com/snip/3e1ee6b0-04f7-4361-b230-5eb976ecb8ca))