A Scholar Reviews The Passion Translation Song of Songs

A Scholar Reviews The Passion Translation: Song of Songs ![rw-book-cover](https://readwise-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/static/images/article1.be68295a7e40.png) 🔗 **Source:** [A Scholar Reviews The Passion Translation: Song of Songs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBC2z0URxYE) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [biblical-translation, biblical-interpretation, song-of-songs] > author: [MISSING] > source: Bible Thinker > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBC2z0URxYE > date created: {{date:YYYY-MM-DD}} {{time:HH:mm}} > > # 🏷️ Title: A Scholar Reviews The Passion Translation: Song of Songs >  ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ## 📝 Summary - Dr. Tremper Longman III, a leading Old Testament scholar, reviewed Brian Simmons' Passion Translation of Song of Songs - Longman concludes it's not a translation but a "highly highly highly interpretive paraphrase" that imposes allegorical meanings not found in the Hebrew text - Key issues include: factual errors, etymological fallacies, unauthorized use of homonyms, and insertion of New Testament concepts - Simmons claims divine revelation of "secrets" in Hebrew and Greek, but his translation lacks scholarly rigor and standard translation processes - The work misses the primary biblical message about human sexuality within marriage and God's design for intimate relationships ## 📖 Main Content ### Background The Passion Translation by Brian Simmons has gained widespread popularity, appearing in Bible apps like YouVersion and being used from church pulpits. However, Simmons lacks traditional qualifications for Bible translation, instead claiming divine revelation of Hebrew and Greek "secrets." ### Dr. Longman's Credentials Dr. Tremper Longman III brings 40 years of Old Testament teaching and writing experience, having worked on major translations including the New Living Translation (wisdom literature), NIV, The Message, and Christian Standard Bible. He authored a commentary on Song of Songs for the Eerdmans New International Commentary series. ### Primary Criticisms **Not a True Translation** Longman categorizes the Passion Translation as a "highly interpretive paraphrase" rather than a translation because it "imports foreign meanings into the text" that cannot be justified from the Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic manuscripts. **Allegorical Misinterpretation** The fundamental flaw is treating Song of Songs as allegory rather than love poetry. Simmons imposes allegorical meanings that aren't explicit in the text, contrary to scholarly consensus that emerged in the 19th century recognizing the book as love poetry with theological implications. **Historical Inaccuracy** Simmons falsely claims the non-allegorical interpretation is only 70 years old. In reality, the non-allegorical view gained prominence in the 19th century and is now scholarly consensus. The early church's allegorical interpretation resulted from Platonic philosophy's negative view of sexuality, not textual evidence. ### Specific Translation Problems **Etymological Fallacies** - Adds "nine fruits" to connect with fruits of the Holy Spirit (4:14) - Translates "pomegranates of passion" by incorrectly connecting rimon (pomegranate) to rum (rise up) - Inserts "from the cross" into verse about calamus based on questionable etymology **Factual Errors** - "En-gedi" becomes "fountain of the lamb" (1:14) when it actually means "goat" and refers to an oasis - "Sharon" becomes "his song" (2:1) when it's a geographical region known for wildflowers - "Seal" becomes "prison cell" (8:6) with no linguistic foundation **Unauthorized Use of Sources** - Selectively uses Septuagint (Greek translation) without textual justification - Appeals to Aramaic interpretive paraphrases from centuries after Christ - Choices appear driven by desired meaning rather than textual evidence **Unverifiable Scholarly Claims** - Cites "some scholars" or "Hebrew scholars" without names or sources - Makes claims about meanings that Longman, despite comprehensive research, cannot verify - No way to check or validate the alleged scholarly support ### Translation Process Concerns Standard translation involves multiple experts, cross-checking, and collaborative review. The Passion Translation is the work of one person without apparent expertise in ancient languages, lacking the checks and balances that ensure accuracy. ### Theological Implications By imposing allegorical interpretation, the translation obscures the biblical teaching about God's positive design for human sexuality within marriage. This message, connecting back to Genesis 2 and forward to New Testament marriage metaphors, is lost when the text becomes purely allegorical. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:03:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBC2z0URxYE&t=192) Brian Simmons' Claims - Claims God gave him "secrets of Hebrew and Greek" - Describes intimate spiritual experiences while translating - Asserts Song of Songs will "shock the daylights into you" #### ⏱️ [00:05:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBC2z0URxYE&t=345) Longman's Translation Experience - 40 years Old Testament scholarship - Worked on New Living Translation, NIV, The Message, Christian Standard Bible - Authored Song of Songs commentary for academic series #### ⏱️ [00:08:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBC2z0URxYE&t=510) Translation vs. Paraphrase - All translation involves interpretation - Passion Translation imports "foreign meanings" - Better described as "highly interpretive paraphrase" - Allegorical approach not justified by Hebrew text #### ⏱️ [00:12:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBC2z0URxYE&t=735) Historical Context of Interpretation - Early church's allegorical view influenced by Platonic philosophy - Negative view of sexuality led to allegorical interpretation - 19th century recovery of original meaning through better methodology - Modern consensus rejects allegorical interpretation #### ⏱️ [00:18:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBC2z0URxYE&t=1125) Simmons' Claims About Opposition - Attributes non-allegorical interpretation to "demon spirit" - Claims demonic influence has hidden true meaning for thousands of years - Positions himself as revealer of hidden truths #### ⏱️ [00:23:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBC2z0URxYE&t=1410) Scope of Alterations - "Significant" and "pervasive" changes throughout - Not nitpicky differences but dramatic alterations - Reader cannot get God's intended message - "Great harm by repressing primary message" #### ⏱️ [00:26:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBC2z0URxYE&t=1580) Etymological Fallacy Examples - Song 4:14: Adds "nine fruits" to connect with Holy Spirit - "Pomegranates of passion" from questionable word connection - "From the cross" inserted based on dubious etymology - First-year Greek student level errors #### ⏱️ [00:32:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBC2z0URxYE&t=1930) Homonyms Claim - Simmons claims Hebrew is "nothing but homonyms" - Says every word has multiple meanings - Claims two-thirds of meaning lost in other translations - Scholars recognize legitimate polysemy is rare, not universal #### ⏱️ [00:36:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBC2z0URxYE&t=2205) Septuagint Misuse - Uses Greek Septuagint when it supports his interpretation - No textual critical justification provided - Appears subjective rather than scholarly - Also appeals to much later Aramaic paraphrases #### ⏱️ [00:40:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBC2z0URxYE&t=2415) Factual Errors - En-gedi: means "goat," not "fountain of the lamb" - Sharon: geographical region, not "his song" - Seal: stamping instrument, not "prison cell" - No foundation in Hebrew language #### ⏱️ [00:47:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBC2z0URxYE&t=2850) Translation Process Comparison - Standard process involves multiple experts and cross-checking - Passion Translation is one-man work without apparent language expertise - Lacks checks and balances of responsible translation - PhD in prayer insufficient for translation work #### ⏱️ [00:52:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBC2z0URxYE&t=3140) Longman's Conclusion - Should not be marketed as translation - "Deeply flawed presentation" - "Represses the primary meaning of the book" - "One can't hear God's intended message" ## 📚 References - [Tremper Longman III's written review](linked in video description) - [Eerdmans New International Commentary on Song of Songs](https://www.eerdmans.com) - [Passion Translation website](https://www.thepassiontranslation.com) - [Bible Thinker YouTube channel](https://youtube.com/@BibleThinker) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase Dr. Tremper Longman, one of the world's leading experts on Song of Songs, conducted a thorough scholarly review of Brian Simmons' Passion Translation of that biblical book. His conclusion is damning: this is not actually a translation but rather an interpretive paraphrase that fundamentally misrepresents the original Hebrew text. Simmons treats Song of Songs as allegory and inserts Christian concepts that aren't in the original, missing the book's actual message about God's design for human sexuality and marriage. The work contains factual errors, linguistic fallacies, and unverifiable claims about Hebrew meanings. Most concerning, Simmons bypasses normal translation processes and scholarly oversight, instead claiming divine revelation of hidden meanings. The result misleads readers about what God actually said in Scripture. ## 📰 Newsletter **Translation Troubles: When "New Revelations" Miss the Mark** Ever wondered how to evaluate a Bible translation? This fascinating scholarly review reveals what happens when enthusiasm meets poor methodology. Dr. Tremper Longman's analysis of the Passion Translation demonstrates why translation requires both linguistic expertise and rigorous peer review—not just passionate inspiration. Key takeaways for anyone choosing Bible versions: look for translations by teams of qualified scholars, be wary of lone translators claiming special revelations, and remember that good translations preserve the original message rather than importing foreign meanings. The video includes helpful explanations of translation principles that every Bible reader should understand. **Resources:** - [Complete scholarly review](link) - [Translation comparison tools](link) - [How to choose a Bible translation guide](link) ## ✅ Action Items #### Community - Research translation credentials before adopting new Bible versions - Compare multiple translations when studying difficult passages - Educate church members about translation evaluation criteria - Advocate for scholarly review processes in religious publishing #### WordPress - Develop educational content about Bible translation methodology - Create comparison tools for evaluating religious texts - Support scholarly review platforms and peer review processes ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Bible readers lack education about translation evaluation criteria, making them vulnerable to misleading versions - Claims of divine revelation in translation bypass critical evaluation by creating false spiritual authority - Single-translator versions without peer review contain significantly more errors than collaborative translation projects - Allegorical interpretation imposed on non-allegorical texts distorts the original biblical message - Publishers prioritize marketability over scholarly accuracy when selecting Bible versions for distribution - Digital Bible platforms need better vetting processes for including new translations ### 📊 Methodology - Comparative textual analysis between Passion Translation and Hebrew manuscripts - Expert review by qualified Old Testament scholars with translation experience - Documentation of specific translation errors with linguistic evidence - Analysis of translation process compared to standard scholarly practices ### ❓ Questions - How many churches have adopted the Passion Translation without scholarly review? - What are digital Bible platforms' criteria for including new translations? - How can average Christians evaluate translation quality without language expertise? - What responsibility do religious publishers have for vetting translation accuracy? ### 🔮 Future Research - Comprehensive review of other biblical books in the Passion Translation - Study of how translation marketing affects adoption in churches - Analysis of correlation between translation methodology and accuracy - Investigation of consumer education about Bible version evaluation ### 💡 Implications - Religious communities need better education about translation evaluation - Digital platforms should implement scholarly review requirements - Claims of divine revelation in translation require extraordinary scrutiny - Traditional peer review processes exist for good reasons in biblical scholarship ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level: College level (15-16th grade) - complex theological and linguistic concepts #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Video format with speaker comparison, text examples shown on screen - Improve: Side-by-side translation comparisons, infographics about translation process, visual timeline of Song of Songs interpretation history #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Audio interview format, spoken explanations of concepts - Improve: Audio-only version, pronunciation guides for Hebrew terms #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Clear definitions of terms like "etymology," "allegory," "paraphrase" - Improve: Glossary of translation terminology, more plain-language explanations #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Specific examples to examine, concrete translation comparisons - Improve: Interactive translation comparison tool, hands-on exercise comparing versions #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Systematic review process, numbered examples, logical argumentation - Improve: Flowchart of translation methodology, decision trees for evaluating translations #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Interview format with expert dialogue - Improve: Discussion questions, community review guidelines #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Individual research resources, written review for private study - Improve: Self-assessment tools for translation evaluation skills #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Historical development patterns, cultural context - Improve: Ecosystem metaphors for translation accuracy, organic growth of understanding ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear speaker identification, structured content organization - Improve: Audio descriptions of visual elements, better heading structure in transcript #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard video player controls - Improve: Timestamp navigation, skip-to-section functionality #### Contrast and readability - Present: Standard video format - Improve: High-contrast captions, larger subtitle text option #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Responsive video player - Improve: Adjustable caption size, text-only transcript version #### Media and captions - Present: Auto-generated captions, full transcript provided - Improve: Human-reviewed captions, downloadable transcript, chapter markers #### Forms and interactions - Present: Standard comment system - Improve: Accessible feedback forms, structured discussion guidelines ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Academic Western Christian perspective - Improve: Global translation examples, cross-cultural interpretation differences #### Inclusive language - Present: Generally respectful theological discourse - Improve: Acknowledge diverse Christian traditions, explain denominational differences #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Clear structure, systematic organization - Improve: Content warnings about complex theology, processing time recommendations #### Representation - Present: Male academic expert, traditional scholarly approach - Improve: Include diverse voices in translation discussion, various cultural perspectives #### Psychological safety - Present: Respectful critique of translation work - Improve: Guidelines for theological disagreement, support for those who've relied on questioned translation ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - **Credentialing argument**: Establishes Longman's expertise through specific qualifications and experience - **Comparative analysis**: Shows systematic differences between Passion Translation and Hebrew text - **Process critique**: Demonstrates how single-translator approach differs from standard methodology #### Fallacies - **Appeal to authority**: While Longman's credentials are relevant, the argument should stand on textual evidence - **Genetic fallacy**: Some dismissal of Passion Translation based on Simmons' background rather than content analysis - **False dichotomy**: Presents choice as either scholarly consensus or individual revelation without middle ground #### Tone of voice Professional, measured, and respectful despite serious concerns. Avoids personal attacks while maintaining scholarly standards. ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis **Deny**: Simmons denies that standard translation approaches capture the full meaning, claiming two-thirds of meaning is lost **Attack**: Attributes opposing interpretations to demonic influence, attacking the credibility of mainstream scholarship **Reverse victim/offender**: Positions himself as the victim of spiritual attack while claiming others are spiritually deceived ## 🎯 Conclusion This scholarly review reveals that the Passion Translation of Song of Songs fails to meet basic translation standards, functioning more as an interpretive paraphrase that imports meanings not found in the original text. Dr. Longman's expertise and systematic analysis provide compelling evidence that readers cannot trust this version to accurately convey the biblical author's intended message. The implications extend beyond this single book to questions about translation authority, scholarly vetting processes, and religious publishers' responsibilities to their audiences. For Bible readers, this case study demonstrates the importance of understanding translation methodology and relying on versions produced through rigorous scholarly processes with appropriate checks and balances. --- ## Full Transcript [00:00] brian simmons is the author of the [00:01] passion translation [00:03] the suddenly wildly popular revival [00:06] bible [00:06] which has been endorsed by famous [00:08] pastors it's showing up in bible apps [00:10] like youversion on websites and in many [00:12] churches it has become their bible from [00:14] their pulpit they use the passion [00:16] translation [00:17] what's alarming is that brian simmons [00:19] doesn't appear to have the normal [00:20] qualifications for doing a bible [00:21] translation [00:22] he does claim however that god has given [00:24] him secrets of hebrew and greek to make [00:27] a translation [00:28] unlike any we've had before here's brian [00:31] sharing this [00:31] with his own lips when i translate the [00:34] word of god and i do the ministry he's [00:35] called me to do [00:36] i want the spirit of the lord like [00:38] intimate lovers that the spirit [00:40] would would breathe into me and as i [00:42] exhaled it becomes revelation to the [00:44] people of god [00:45] i believe god gave me the key to the [00:47] book of proverbs i discovered and [00:49] uncovered so many mysteries and glory [00:51] realms in the book of psalms [00:53] it will take your breath away i'm [00:54] telling you secrets that [00:56] only come from above i'm here to share [00:59] some of those secrets with you but what [01:00] if [01:01] we could hire top scholars to review the [01:04] passion translation [01:05] thoroughly and then tell us what they [01:07] honestly think about it well that is [01:08] what my passion project's all about with [01:10] your help i've been able to hire top [01:12] scholars [01:13] and this is the first review in that [01:15] series of reviews [01:16] we're starting with the book the song of [01:18] songs which brian says is his [01:20] favorite book of the bible the first is [01:23] the song of songs i picked my favorite [01:24] book [01:25] it is the translation from the authentic [01:28] original hebrew [01:29] aramaic text that is going to shock the [01:32] daylights [01:32] into you amen thank you it's going to [01:35] absolutely stun you [01:37] in this video you're going to hear from [01:38] dr tremper longman who is a pro [01:40] on the song of songs i mean he's like [01:42] the guy for the song of songs [01:44] and he reviewed brian simmons [01:45] translation of the song of songs in the [01:47] passion translation [01:48] and this is what he said dr longman [01:51] tremper for those not yet familiar with [01:53] you can you tell us a bit about your [01:54] translation experience [01:55] and your special interest in the song of [01:57] songs in particular [01:59] uh sure yeah so i've been uh teaching [02:02] and writing on the old testament for [02:04] about 40 years now and uh [02:08] and in terms of translation work [02:11] i worked on a lot of the most popular [02:16] um english translations but the one that [02:18] i worked on the most is the new living [02:20] translation where i was in charge of the [02:24] wisdom literature which includes [02:26] the song of songs uh but i've also [02:29] done work for other translations [02:33] as well the niv and [02:36] the message um the common bible [02:40] and uh and the christian standard bible [02:44] a whole bunch of bibles [02:45] i've worked on but in terms of the song [02:48] of songs [02:50] most notably i've written a [02:53] commentary on it for the erdmann's [02:56] nightcard or new international [02:57] commentary of the old testament series [03:00] so that's my my biggest contribution to [03:04] um song song study yeah well i'm really [03:07] grateful to have you [03:08] as part of this project this my calling [03:10] my passion project [03:12] i'm grateful to have you because because [03:14] i what i wanted was people who have a [03:15] lot of experience [03:16] and a special interest in the very parts [03:18] of the book they review because it will [03:20] give a window [03:21] of insight for the average christian who [03:24] doesn't know [03:24] ancient languages and who doesn't know [03:26] how to evaluate a translation so they [03:27] can understand [03:28] what's up with the passion translation [03:30] so the first question i've actually got [03:32] for you is whether it's honest to [03:34] actually call this [03:35] a translation i mean the title of the [03:36] work is the passion translation [03:38] um you know brian simmons and broad [03:40] street publishing claim that it's a [03:42] translation here's a actually i'll read [03:43] you a quote from their website and i'd [03:45] like to get your thoughts [03:46] on that they say the passion translation [03:48] is a new version of god's word [03:49] that is considered a translation because [03:51] it uses the hebrew [03:52] aramaic and greek manuscripts to [03:54] translate the essential meaning of the [03:56] scriptures into contemporary [03:58] english what are your thoughts on that [04:00] it is true let me start by saying that [04:02] all translations involve interpretation [04:05] so it's not a matter of the fact that [04:08] there is some measure of interpretation [04:12] involved that would lead me to the [04:13] conclusion that the [04:15] passion translation if it's a [04:17] translation is is not a good one [04:20] and that's because um the [04:23] translator imports uh foreign meanings [04:27] into the text so i'm not saying and i [04:30] don't know [04:31] whether whether the translator [04:34] uh knows hebrew greek aramaic [04:38] well um i'm i am saying that [04:42] um that that the [04:45] train that the passion translation [04:48] uh at sometimes can't be justified by [04:51] the hebrew greek [04:52] and aramaic and for that reason i would [04:55] say it's not a translation [04:58] it's more like a highly highly highly [05:01] interpretive paraphrase [05:04] so a paraphrase i think most people know [05:05] paraphrase means it's like well [05:07] this is really what it's saying i'm not [05:09] going to worry about exactly the wording [05:10] but here's kind of the heart of what's [05:12] being said here [05:13] um but you say it's highly highly highly [05:15] interpretive [05:16] why do you qualify even the term [05:18] paraphrase with with all those extra [05:19] words [05:20] uh yeah because i mean you can have a [05:23] paraphrase that sticks pretty closely to [05:26] the original [05:27] languages but because a paraphrase [05:31] actually technically is [05:32] taking something in one language and [05:34] rendering it in different words in [05:35] another language [05:38] but but but i but [05:42] but i say it's highly interpretive [05:43] because uh the translator [05:46] brian simmons i guess it is um he [05:50] um he has [05:53] uh he has concluded that the song of [05:56] songs is an [05:57] allegory and so he [06:00] uh actually translates in a way [06:05] that brings out an allegorical meaning [06:08] that isn't explicit in the text i mean [06:11] even if [06:12] the song of songs is an allegory which [06:15] uh almost [06:16] everybody today says it's not um [06:19] by everybody i mean scholars who study [06:21] the song of songs [06:23] um you know the the [06:27] allegorical meaning is not explicit and [06:30] in the text itself in the hebrew now you [06:34] said that that's actually in your in [06:35] your review which [06:36] for everybody watching there's a link [06:38] below you can actually read this review [06:40] for yourself for free it's it's [06:41] available there [06:42] and there's a thorough thoughtful review [06:43] i thought you did a really good job with [06:45] it [06:45] um but you said that this is actually [06:47] the biggest problem with the passion [06:49] translations [06:50] rendering of the song of songs in [06:51] particular that it's that it treats it [06:53] as an [06:54] allegory rather than uh as it what would [06:57] you say it actually is meant to be [06:59] well i i think it's it's a love poetry [07:03] uh and it's uh love poetry [07:06] within the bible which is trying to [07:09] teach us things about god's [07:11] uh desires for intimacy within [07:15] a marriage i think it also has [07:18] theological meaning [07:21] because within the bible the [07:25] the there's this rather pervasive [07:29] metaphor of our relationship with god [07:31] being [07:32] like a marriage and [07:36] but but the way to understand that is [07:38] the more we learn about [07:40] god's intentions for human marriage [07:43] in terms of its intimacy its exclusivity [07:46] its passion the more we learn [07:49] about the more that informs our [07:51] understanding of the divine human [07:54] metaphor in scripture that our [07:56] relationship with god [07:57] should be intimate and passionate and [08:00] exclusive the problem with rendering it [08:03] as an allegory is [08:04] uh first of all you just cut all that [08:06] out [08:08] and the second thing is that you make [08:10] some arbitrary [08:12] connections between the text and [08:16] its theological meaning [08:19] so how big of it like because for a lot [08:21] of people i mean they just honestly [08:22] don't know how to wrap their heads [08:23] around [08:24] some of these issues and help help us [08:26] out how big of a deal is this [08:27] that the the very nature of the song of [08:31] songs is [08:31] is now being turned into allegory and [08:33] would you agree with this term [08:34] artificially [08:35] that the translators artificially [08:37] creating allegory as and then presenting [08:39] it as translation [08:41] and it's losing what the nature of the [08:44] song of songs is like how big of a deal [08:45] is that [08:46] it's a big big deal uh because first of [08:50] all [08:50] uh god is is concerned about us as human [08:54] beings and sexuality is a big part of [08:57] who we are as human beings [08:59] um song of songs connects back to [09:01] genesis 2 [09:03] the man and the woman in the garden [09:05] naked and feeling no shame god created [09:08] us sexual beings um and [09:11] genesis 3 that relationship is [09:14] fractured through sin uh and the song of [09:17] songs as one [09:19] scholar phyllis triple put it is [09:23] is about the already not yet redemption [09:27] of sexuality [09:28] and so it uh encourages us or reminds us [09:33] of god's good intentions and desires for [09:36] human sexuality within [09:38] marriage and that's a really important [09:40] message [09:41] uh for christians to hear these days and [09:44] and that message is lost ultimately in [09:46] the s in the version of the song of song [09:48] so you'd say that the primary message of [09:50] the text is [09:51] missing in this translation which is [09:54] which is a big deal if we care about [09:56] the the scripture and the message that [09:57] god intends and the inspiration of [09:59] scripture so [10:00] um i would like to get your commentary [10:02] on a couple clips [10:03] from brian simmons and so i'm going to [10:05] play these for you and just to get your [10:07] thoughts [10:08] and the first one here let me try and [10:10] pull that up for us is [10:11] where brian simmons is going to say that [10:13] the not only is the song of songs in [10:15] allegory [10:16] but that the non-allegorical view is [10:19] only 70 years old did you know the [10:21] earliest church fathers the earliest [10:23] writings ever known [10:24] in the church about the song of songs is [10:26] the way i'm teaching it right now [10:28] it's only the last 70 years or so [10:32] that the sexual connotations and the [10:34] sensuality stuff has come into the [10:36] church [10:38] you know who knows what well uh first of [10:41] all it's [10:42] it's actually untrue that um the [10:46] non-allegorical [10:47] reading has has come [10:50] in to the church just in the past 70 [10:53] years [10:54] though there is an element of truth to [10:56] the fact that the allegorical [10:57] interpretation [10:58] of the song dominated [11:02] for many many years but [11:05] we can cite a number of uh medieval [11:10] interpreters who took it [11:14] as a as love poetry [11:18] rather than an allegory but they were in [11:20] the minority i'll come back to [11:21] explain why that's the case uh [11:25] but actually it's in the 19th century [11:29] that the non-allegorical interpretation [11:33] uh began to become the primary [11:36] interpretation [11:37] within the church and now [11:40] is by far the consensus [11:44] uh reading of it again there is this [11:47] theological [11:48] message to it as well that i talked [11:50] about earlier but [11:51] let me explain first of all briefly [11:55] why the allegorical interpretation was [11:59] so [11:59] popular in the early church i mean you [12:01] have to put it within its context [12:04] uh we're talking about a church that [12:07] also [12:07] uh advocated for celibate priests [12:10] okay and also uh was trying to encourage [12:14] the monastic movement um and [12:18] and had a very negative view of [12:22] human sexuality and uh if you study it [12:26] you could see that that's a result [12:29] of a cultural influence on the church [12:32] connected with platonic philosophy [12:35] and so um so again if you're [12:39] going to argue that [12:42] that means that the song of songs uh [12:45] ought to be interpreted in the way that [12:48] the early church fathers interpreted [12:50] then you should also advocate for [12:52] celibate ministers i i don't know [12:54] whether ministers in your circles [12:56] are uh have taken a bowel of chastity or [13:00] not but they [13:01] should probably do that to be consistent [13:04] um in my own studies [13:06] on on marriage in the early church [13:09] fathers and their teachings on divorce [13:10] and remarriage there's [13:11] you see a clear influence of these [13:15] extra biblical ideas coming in where [13:17] they're actually uh [13:18] authoritatively telling people that they [13:20] can't do things like your spouse dies [13:22] you you can't remarry even then [13:24] even though the scripture clearly says [13:25] you can so there's this there's this [13:26] obvious bias that's not coming from the [13:28] text of scripture [13:30] right and and so um so [13:33] so when you come to the 19th century [13:35] there are a whole bunch of factors that [13:36] come together [13:37] that help recover the original meaning [13:40] of the text [13:42] and that includes the wearing off of the [13:45] influence of platonic [13:47] philosophy also interestingly enough [13:51] and you know there are definite [13:55] negatives to modernist biblical [13:58] interpretation [13:59] compared to pre-modern biblical [14:00] interpretation but one of the benefits [14:02] is you've got to justify your [14:04] interpretation you just don't accept it [14:06] from the [14:07] church authorities so when uh [14:10] you know during the middle ages when a [14:13] teacher told a student that song of [14:15] songs 113 [14:16] which says my beloved is to me a sachet [14:20] of myrrh [14:20] resting between my breasts and [14:24] early church fathers all the way down to [14:26] the modern period would say that's a [14:28] reference to jesus [14:30] christ the sack of myrrh and [14:33] the breasts are the old and new [14:35] testaments and [14:37] you know when you come to the more [14:38] modern period a student might say to his [14:40] teacher [14:41] how can you justify that from the text [14:45] i why and so and then the other thing is [14:49] uh we have a a good appreciation [14:52] of the ancient near eastern context of [14:55] old testament writings that [14:57] and in the 19th century that was being [14:59] recovered and we have a lot of ancient [15:01] texts that are formally [15:03] like the song of songs from egypt [15:07] uh plus europeans were coming back in [15:09] touch with [15:10] middle eastern diplomats they were [15:13] setting up diplomatic corps and they [15:15] were going to weddings and they were [15:17] singing songs at their weddings that [15:18] were a lot like the song song so there [15:20] were a lot of things [15:21] that basically uh [15:24] uh made it clear that [15:28] the song of songs is not an allegory but [15:30] i might say one more thing and that is [15:33] you know there are allegories there is [15:34] such a thing as a genre [15:37] of allegory but allegories are really [15:40] really [15:40] obvious they're not subtle pilgrims [15:43] progress [15:44] is an allegory and that's a story about [15:47] a man named christian [15:49] traveling to the celestial city and [15:52] running into things like this law of [15:54] despond [15:55] or bunyan's other book holy wars about [15:59] a main character also named christian [16:01] who just lost the city of man sold to [16:03] beelzebub and now with the help of [16:05] lieutenant [16:06] wisdom is going to take back the city of [16:09] man's soul [16:10] so i mean that's an allegory and long [16:13] assault [16:14] really has nothing no no indications [16:17] of being that type of book so there's [16:20] like a [16:20] there's a genre confusion that's being [16:23] put into the passion translations [16:24] version [16:25] there's another clip i'd like to get [16:26] your comments on um and this is where [16:29] brian simmons is gonna explain what he [16:31] thinks is the reason [16:32] why why people don't think the song of [16:35] songs [16:36] is an allegory and i'm convinced there [16:39] has been a demon spirit [16:41] for thousands of years that comes to [16:44] every person who reads the song [16:45] songs and says you won't understand you [16:48] don't need those droids [16:49] you will not understand the song of [16:51] songs [16:52] it's all about sexuality you'll go blind [16:56] if you read this one [16:59] but the lord is unveiling in these last [17:02] days [17:02] the lyrics of this song that are going [17:05] to [17:06] change the world well obviously i think [17:09] that's an outrageous statement [17:13] especially since [17:16] so many faithful devout [17:19] readers of the song of songs have uh [17:22] understood it as love poetry [17:25] um and so so [17:29] i would seriously dispute [17:32] that characterization and find it kind [17:35] of [17:35] ridiculous actually my concern is the [17:38] people hearing him [17:39] i mean he goes and shares these things [17:41] all over the place and i'm i'm i don't [17:43] it's not my concern's not like brian [17:44] simmons it's it's the people hearing him [17:45] and the influence he's ex [17:47] his very strong and growing influence on [17:48] a large number of people [17:50] who are now being you know here's a [17:52] sacred [17:53] scripture that they're being given like [17:56] a guru [17:56] for this scripture it's brian simmons [17:59] and he's going to unveil [18:00] and undo the demonic work that has kept [18:02] you from understanding this book and [18:03] he does this in other books as well he [18:05] claims and so [18:06] i uh for those people just to realize [18:10] um that's not right that's just not [18:13] right [18:14] yeah and it's really the [18:17] people's responsibility to look into the [18:20] matter and not just [18:21] accept it on the uh [18:25] word of anyone me or or [18:28] him or you you know um use this as an [18:32] occasion [18:32] to really do some thinking and some [18:35] reading [18:36] and some study about it and praying and [18:40] praying the whole time of course [18:42] but you also need to use your mind and [18:44] you have to [18:45] uh do a little bit of research as well [18:49] i like that and that's a good [18:50] encouragement too it's we are [18:51] responsible for [18:52] what we uh what we swallow and what we [18:54] spit out [18:56] so um can you give us some perspective [18:58] on the big picture of before we look at [19:00] some specific examples [19:02] of the passion translations handling of [19:03] the song of songs about [19:05] how much alteration addition and [19:07] subtraction [19:08] is taking place here well there's [19:11] there's [19:12] significant um significant i can't put a [19:16] percentage on it but it's pervasive [19:18] throughout [19:19] the whole of the song [19:23] yeah you said in your review um his [19:26] version of the song [19:27] misses the important teaching of the [19:29] song and you also said it obscures the [19:32] important message of the song [19:33] and you said does great harm by [19:36] repressing [19:37] what might be considered what we might [19:39] consider to be the primary message of [19:41] the book [19:42] and so here i just want the audience to [19:43] recognize and please correct me if if [19:45] i at all misrepresent your thoughts here [19:48] that this is this is not [19:49] a nitpicky thing with little differences [19:52] in little changes here this is dramatic [19:54] and significant alterations that means [19:56] that you will not [19:57] get what god gave in this yeah [20:01] and i don't want to give people the [20:02] impressions that i'm kind of a [20:05] narrow-minded word for word [20:08] advocate matter of fact i i think that [20:11] the best translations are [20:13] are more what are commonly called [20:15] thought for thought [20:16] translations uh and i one of the as i [20:20] earlier said i worked on the message and [20:22] i don't [20:23] always agree with the message but it's [20:27] always [20:27] it's always sensitive you can always see [20:31] a connection between [20:33] the original languages and [20:36] um and eugene peterson's [20:40] translation but but you can't [20:43] see that at least in the song songs in [20:46] the passion translation [20:48] yeah extreme liberties have been taken [20:50] there so let me get then [20:52] in that on that note let me get your [20:53] response to the following statement this [20:55] is on the passion translations [20:56] website it's in their faq on the page [20:59] there and [21:00] they claim the text was interpreted from [21:02] the original language [21:04] carrying its original meaning and giving [21:07] you [21:07] an accurate reliable expression of god's [21:09] original message [21:12] i would say that's a misleading [21:13] statement you know um [21:16] the original intention i would associate [21:19] with [21:19] the composer the author's uh [21:22] intention which we can only discover [21:24] through studying [21:25] the text and you can't [21:30] derive some of the well a lot of the [21:33] translations [21:34] of the passion translation from the text [21:37] itself [21:38] uh again i don't know what's going on in [21:41] his process of rendering [21:44] the song songs whether he is reading it [21:48] in the hebrew and then in his mind [21:52] just taking that and imposing a kind of [21:56] allegorical [21:57] reading on it [22:00] so but i can tell you that [22:04] that when you look at if you start [22:07] like i did by looking at his translation [22:10] and then looking at the hebrew [22:12] there's a lot that i couldn't see [22:15] where he got that from [22:20] well let's get to some specific examples [22:22] i think that will help [22:23] also the audience who are just very [22:26] inquisitive they want to know the [22:27] details here help them understand [22:29] and so you said brian simmons quote in [22:31] your review which again is linked below [22:33] anybody who wants to read the whole [22:34] thing [22:35] achieves his translation by utilizing a [22:37] number of ill-advised or simply wrong [22:39] interpretive strategies [22:41] and i thought we could walk through some [22:42] of the examples that you gave you [22:43] mentioned [22:44] the etymological fallacy and [22:48] chapter 4 verse 14. can you explain what [22:50] is the etymological fallacy and then how [22:52] does it relate to that [22:53] example that passage well an [22:55] etymological [22:57] fallacy is when you look at [23:00] a word and then [23:03] from that you think about its uh [23:09] or you you think about [23:12] its original meaning and then impose [23:14] that on [23:15] the later text [23:18] maybe an english example um [23:22] nice i think meant precise early on but [23:25] now it [23:26] means something else in our everyday [23:28] language and it would be equivalent [23:31] to looking at a text written today that [23:35] had the word nice and then imposing [23:37] maybe its original etymological [23:41] meaning this passage is in this [23:43] description [23:44] of the of the woman's beauty [23:48] starting with her head and working down [23:50] her body [23:52] and uh yeah i mean i think one of the [23:55] things that [23:56] put off the uh the [23:59] medieval trend of medieval interpreters [24:02] who had this kind of body [24:04] spirit body soul dichotomy thinking that [24:07] the body was somehow [24:09] inherently evil and we need to repress [24:11] it in order to let the spirit live [24:13] was this is this is very uh [24:17] very evocative language this is a [24:20] fountain in a garden with all kinds of [24:23] precious you know spices [24:27] and so forth that is [24:30] referring to the woman's most private [24:33] part it's a prelude to [24:35] love making and he renders it [24:38] uh well let me read it first in uh the [24:41] niv [24:44] um so song of songs 414 [24:47] says your plants are an orchard of [24:49] pomegranates with choice fruits [24:51] with henna and nard nard and saffron [24:54] calamus and cinnamon with every kind of [24:56] incense tree with myrrh and [24:57] alice and all the finest spices and [25:00] he translates here are the nine [25:05] um fruits and spices i guess [25:08] uh there's no reference to nine in the [25:11] attack [25:11] yeah i know from hearing his commentary [25:13] he does that because he wants to relate [25:14] it to the [25:15] fruit of the holy spirit and so he's [25:18] trying to draw a connection there [25:20] oh okay so it's like a preaching point [25:23] has been put into the text [25:24] yeah and then he listened verse 13 he [25:27] lists the nine fruit of the holy spirit [25:28] there are nine [25:29] fruits in that garden and i'm not going [25:32] to go over them because of time [25:33] i've written about the extensively in [25:35] the commentary [25:37] but he lists the nine fruits that are [25:40] within this [25:41] pleasure-filled garden within us yeah [25:43] and sometimes he'll italicize those [25:45] things but sometimes he won't alert the [25:47] reader [25:48] to that he'll say he doesn't just say [25:51] pomegranates he talks about pomegranates [25:53] of passion [25:54] and there he looks at the word for [25:55] pomegranate which is rimon and he sees [25:58] a vague resemblance to a verb [26:02] room which means to rise up and so he [26:05] says [26:06] in his footnote something about it being [26:08] connected to exalted [26:10] which then he somehow computes to [26:12] passion [26:14] so that's what i mean too he looks at [26:16] nouns he then looks [26:17] at tries to look at their verbal root [26:20] and then he'll make a comment [26:24] about uh uh he'll add something to the [26:27] text and that's [26:28] uh scholars would recognize that [26:31] as a illegitimate um approach to the [26:35] text [26:36] it's what first year greek students do [26:38] yeah right [26:39] that's right that's the the first thing [26:41] i learned with with what little greek i [26:42] did [26:43] you know take first thing i learned is [26:45] how most of the greek i heard in sermons [26:47] was wrong [26:49] it was used incorrectly and it's that [26:51] kind of thing [26:52] so he also makes a big deal of homonyms [26:54] so and that's kind of what you're what [26:55] you're it's like leap frogging so uh [26:57] here's a word here's another word that [26:58] sounds the same in the hebrew [27:00] well i'm going to take the meaning from [27:02] a different word that sounds the same [27:03] and i'm going to teleport it over here [27:04] to this verse [27:05] and so he'll translate he's actually [27:07] come out and said that [27:08] that um some translations miss [27:11] two-thirds of the meaning of the text [27:13] not his of course because they're only [27:15] translating one meaning of the word [27:17] and he does homonyms and etymology and [27:19] all this now when jesus came to me [27:21] and said i'm going to give you secrets [27:23] one of the secrets he gave me [27:26] was uh that of homonyms so homonyms [27:30] i mean the bible is full of homonyms [27:32] hebrew [27:34] is nothing but homonyms it is a [27:36] homonymic language [27:38] in other words every word god spoke and [27:41] is written [27:42] in the scriptures can have multiple [27:44] meanings i call it god's entertainment [27:48] i think he laughs when we read the bible [27:50] and say oh [27:51] you think that's all it means [27:53] [Laughter] [27:55] you know it's rubik's cube it's god's [27:58] entertainment he has embedded into the [28:00] scriptures [28:01] such profound revelation on multiple [28:04] layers and multiple levels [28:06] okay a homonym see how translators are [28:10] forced [28:10] to to do one meaning out of three so [28:13] two-thirds of the meaning of that word [28:15] you're putting in the trash wow back [28:17] into the trash and i found the [28:19] two-thirds [28:20] of the other meanings and it blew me [28:22] away [28:23] what do scholars actually think of that [28:25] um [28:26] scholars will sometimes recognize that [28:28] there's what called polyceme [28:30] in in the rare passage where you know [28:33] maybe there is this ws but it's not a [28:36] consistent [28:37] thing um and [28:40] while we're in this passage by the way [28:42] maybe down a little bit more it says [28:44] fragrant calamus [28:45] from the cross okay so and then his foot [28:49] note is calamus is [28:51] taken from a marsh plant known as sweet [28:53] flag [28:54] which produces fragrant oil the hebrew [28:57] word for this spice means [28:59] purchased or redeemed well i mean [29:02] even if that etymology is correct which [29:05] it's [29:05] probably not notice how he's introducing [29:09] from the cross [29:10] into the text which even if it means [29:13] redeemed and that's totally foreign to [29:15] the old testament setting of this text [29:18] and that's what i mean by imposing [29:20] yeah and we love the cross it's not like [29:24] there's no opposition to the cross here [29:26] it's just that we love god [29:27] so much you want to honor what he [29:29] actually said and not [29:31] adapt it artificially right [29:34] and there is a bonafide christological [29:37] reading of the song of songs [29:39] first of all you interpret it in its old [29:42] testament setting and then as i say you [29:44] notice this pervasive metaphor of the [29:46] divine human relationship [29:48] and of course that continues into the [29:50] new testament where in places like [29:52] ephesians 5 [29:54] our relationship the church's [29:55] relationship with jesus is likened to [29:58] that between [29:59] a man and a woman yeah so we don't [30:02] sorry go ahead oh i was going to say you [30:04] can [30:05] preach christ out of the son of songs [30:07] but [30:08] not in the way that he's proposing [30:12] yeah that's the more responsible way [30:14] it's it's there's a there's a metaphor [30:15] here that the [30:16] the the rest of scripture reinforces and [30:19] we can go and look at the metaphor but [30:20] that doesn't make it allegory [30:22] those are different things right exactly [30:25] so another example you give is brian [30:27] simmons use of the greek [30:28] septuagint now for those who don't know [30:31] tell me if [30:32] i get this wrong but basically the [30:33] septuagint we're talking about [30:35] um the the hebrew was translated into [30:38] greek [30:38] that greek was accessible to people in [30:41] the first century [30:42] and brian simmons will sometimes use [30:45] that [30:45] greek translation to influence his [30:47] translation [30:49] and maybe i could read a quote from your [30:51] paper here real quick and then get you [30:52] to share on this [30:54] you said simmons will sometimes use the [30:55] septuagint greek as a source for his [30:57] translation [30:58] instead of the hebrew now there are [31:00] sometimes good textual reasons to do [31:02] this but in this case [31:03] there are none and he doesn't offer any [31:06] leaving us with the impression that he [31:07] just uses the septuagint [31:09] when he prefers the reading that is when [31:11] it supports his general approach [31:13] yeah the bottom line you're exactly [31:15] right about what the septuagint [31:17] is it's the earliest translation of the [31:20] hebrew bible that we have it dates [31:22] to the beginning to the middle of the [31:24] second century [31:25] bc so it's an important source [31:29] though uh the hebrew [31:33] masoretic text we call it is uh [31:36] the best rendition of the original [31:41] scholars are generally agreed about that [31:45] and when we're doing translations uh we [31:47] do keep an [31:48] eye on the septuagint but you have to [31:50] have a reason [31:52] to think that there's a problem with the [31:54] hebrew text [31:55] there are arguments um and you can see [31:58] them in the footnotes of all [32:00] of of your translations they'll [32:02] sometimes say [32:03] hebrews greek hebrew says and that's a [32:06] signal [32:07] that um the translators have [32:11] decided and they're not that common to [32:14] be honest [32:15] uh but the impression that i get [32:18] from five eight in other places where he [32:20] appeals both to the [32:22] septuagint and the aramaic which is even [32:25] more [32:25] problematic because when you're talking [32:27] about the aramaic you're talking about [32:30] that interpret an interpretive [32:31] paraphrase that comes hundreds of years [32:33] after the time of christ [32:36] uh jewish interpretive paraphrases [32:40] the impression i get isn't that he's [32:42] thought through the issues of what we [32:44] call [32:44] text criticism but rather that this kind [32:47] of fits in with his understanding [32:49] of the book um [32:53] so um [32:56] or or or it's more emotional it's more [32:58] passionate it kind of feeds [33:00] into his preconcept of what the case [33:04] yeah so in other words if i could put it [33:06] this way [33:07] uh his textual choices about what [33:09] readings to use and when to use certain [33:11] sources [33:12] don't seem to be influenced by good [33:15] wisdom here but rather by [33:17] what he likes is that [33:20] an accurate representation he's done [33:23] nothing to disabuse me of that idea [33:25] um by saying well here's why we go with [33:29] the septuagint rather than [33:30] the hebrew text it seems very [33:34] subjective all right let's talk about [33:36] his his footnotes and his references to [33:38] scholars uh you mentioned this in your [33:40] paper [33:40] but i would just say most people most of [33:43] us are pretty impressed [33:44] when they read a footnote in the passion [33:46] translation that says scholars say this [33:48] or scholars think this or many hebrew [33:50] scholars say blah blah [33:52] and it fills in the blank and it feels [33:54] pretty weighty [33:56] but you mentioned the following in your [33:58] paper you said on a number of occasions [34:01] he will cite authorities to support his [34:02] ideas but in ways that we cannot follow [34:05] up on he uses phrases like some scholars [34:07] or some hebrew scholars [34:08] but not telling us who we can't evaluate [34:11] whether they exist or if they do whether [34:13] they are [34:14] competent modern scholars so i was [34:16] hoping you might be able to give an [34:17] example [34:18] of that happening in the text so an [34:21] example can be seen [34:23] in song of songs 217 [34:27] where there's a mention of what is [34:30] almost certainly a [34:31] place name the tear and he [34:35] has a note saying some scholars say the [34:39] tear was a spiritual representation of a [34:41] mountain of fragrant spices i.e [34:44] the realm of holiness i'm suspicious of [34:48] such references when you say some [34:50] scholars or [34:52] all scholars or even just scholars say [34:56] without mentioning even one scholar [34:59] particularly since as i mentioned i've [35:00] written [35:02] a rather comprehensive commentary on the [35:04] song songs in an academic series where i [35:07] have read [35:09] a lot of scholars and i don't know [35:11] anyone who would [35:12] make that point about [35:16] the tear being the realm of holiness so [35:18] perhaps he can come up with somebody but [35:21] or but i i don't know what it is so you [35:24] can't check it out you just can't [35:26] give that kind of semblance of authority [35:28] without backing it up [35:30] there's an awful lot of people being [35:32] asked to take his word for it [35:34] through al throughout the translation [35:36] there's a there's a great deal of [35:38] taking his word for it and then when he [35:40] teaches in public about his translation [35:42] he talks about how god revealed things [35:43] the secrets of hebrew and greek that [35:45] nobody's known before and he's [35:47] he's the one unveiling it for people [35:49] jesus christ [35:50] came into my room he breathed on me [35:53] and he commissioned me and he spoke [35:57] to me and said i'm commissioning you [36:01] to translate the bible into the [36:04] translation project that i'm giving you [36:06] to do [36:07] and he promised that he would help me [36:09] and he promised me he would give me [36:11] secrets [36:12] of the hebrew language and i felt [36:15] downloads coming instantly i received [36:18] downloads it was like [36:19] i got a chip put inside of me i got a [36:22] connection [36:23] inside of me to hear him better to [36:26] understand the scriptures better and [36:29] hopefully to translate [36:30] the spirit of the lord came upon me i [36:32] told you i had a visitation from the one [36:34] i love he walked through my wall and [36:35] breathed on me [36:36] and released me to do this translation [36:39] project and those are some [36:41] i mean either those are really wonderful [36:44] claims [36:44] or those are really terrible claims it [36:46] doesn't seem like there's much middle [36:48] ground here [36:49] it's and when i when i listen to [36:52] qualified people comment on it i think [36:55] they're terrible claims to be completely [36:57] honest [36:58] yeah i think there are dangerous claims [37:01] because there's no way [37:02] anybody can uh dispute him [37:06] uh if except by then saying well the [37:10] hebrew doesn't say that and then if he [37:12] responds by [37:13] god showed me this you know what's to [37:16] prevent [37:17] god revealing things to [37:20] people that are really [37:24] bad or dangerous or in conflict with [37:28] scripture as we read it i mean [37:30] just to give you one example uh there's [37:33] an argument out there that even though [37:36] the bible consistently [37:38] prohibits same-sex intimacy that the [37:41] spirit [37:42] has moved the church in a new direction [37:46] that even though the bible has one [37:48] message [37:50] the church has has received or certain [37:52] individuals have received from the holy [37:54] spirit a new message [37:56] and um [38:00] so you can basically [38:03] undermine the whole message of scripture [38:05] by that kind of [38:07] subjective authoritative appeal to the [38:10] spirit [38:11] yeah it's almost it's like it's one [38:13] thing for someone to come and say i feel [38:14] like the lord showed me something i want [38:15] to tell you what i believe god is [38:17] revealing to me and it's something else [38:18] for someone to say [38:20] god showed me that these changes i'm [38:22] making to the bible [38:23] are inspired from him and now it's [38:25] saying something different than before [38:28] which is like okay stop you can't do [38:32] that [38:33] um yeah because the spirit is speaking [38:35] to us through [38:36] the word scripture they're human authors [38:39] that [38:40] god is the old author of scripture it [38:42] was already inspired it doesn't need to [38:43] be inspired again [38:46] so um okay let's talk real quick about [38:48] some factual errors you mentioned you [38:49] said that [38:50] there's a number of factual errors in [38:52] the uh passion translations version of [38:54] the song of songs [38:55] and i was hoping you could cover a few [38:57] examples one i have that you brought up [38:59] was [39:00] from chapter 1 verse 14 [39:03] and i'm going to play a clip of brian [39:05] simmons actually teaching on this [39:07] so we can get not only in his footnotes [39:08] and the text but here's what he says [39:11] about the meaning of the word in getty [39:13] and i mean he says this everywhere he [39:14] goes and teaches [39:16] it's i've heard a mini clips of him [39:18] saying it [39:19] means the fountain of the lamb wow [39:22] the blood red fountain [39:26] my lover is to me a bouquet of henna of [39:28] atonement [39:30] squeezed at the fountain of the lamb [39:33] and there's lots of o's and oz from the [39:35] audience at that point because they feel [39:37] like they're getting this incredible [39:39] powerful revelation about the true [39:41] meaning [39:42] of song of solomon 1 14. what are your [39:45] thoughts on that [39:47] well my thoughts are that getty means [39:50] goat you know and so um and [39:53] and not lamb and their other hebrew [39:56] terms uh for lamb [40:00] and again it's a example to me [40:03] of the illegitimate imposition of new [40:05] testament meaning [40:07] back on the old testament [40:10] and and we know how engetti is [40:14] functioning [40:15] in this context getty is this [40:18] beautiful waterfall um going down into a [40:22] pool it's out in the middle [40:24] of the dead sea area it's an oasis in [40:27] the middle of this [40:29] so the song of songs does this it uses [40:31] geographical references [40:33] to evoke certain and [40:37] emotional response so to say my beloved [40:41] is to me a cluster of henna blossoms [40:42] from the vineyards of engettius to [40:46] to evoke a very romantic scene shall we [40:50] say yeah there's this there's this [40:52] desert around but there's this oasis [40:54] and you're like the best thing from the [40:56] oasis to me this cluster of these [40:58] beautiful blossoms [41:00] but instead he wants it to be an [41:01] allegory so he's he [41:03] mistranslates and says it's the fountain [41:05] of the lamb he thinks he's getting a [41:06] secret of [41:07] hebrew and greek that has been repressed [41:10] by his teaching repressed by demons [41:12] and he's revealing it but it's just a [41:13] factual error [41:15] so another one is chapter 2 verse 1 [41:18] where the passion translation has the [41:20] phrase [41:21] um i am the rose of sharon and they [41:24] but they translate he translates it [41:26] differently he says i am truly his rose [41:28] the very theme of his [41:29] song now brian simmons footnote there [41:32] says the word sharon can be translated [41:34] his song now sharon [41:38] the word sharon means his song [41:42] that's what the name sharon means i am [41:45] the rose of his song [41:48] i am the rose of his song i am the theme [41:52] of his song i am the rose [41:55] the rose is you baby what is the problem [41:59] with that [42:00] the words geron [42:04] is again a geographical name it's a [42:07] particular [42:08] area between jerusalem and the [42:11] mediterranean it's known for its wild [42:14] flowers and and [42:18] what he's doing is kind of an [42:20] etymological fallacy again [42:22] uh there is a hebrew noun [42:25] here means uh song but it doesn't [42:29] not everywhere where you have those [42:31] particular hebrew consonants [42:33] is it a reference to song there are a [42:36] lot of words that have those first two [42:38] consonants a [42:40] sh sound and an r sound and own is not [42:44] a third person polynomial suffix [42:47] so to think of it as charon is also [42:50] appropriate for [42:51] the context you know i am [42:54] well a lot of translations say rose it's [42:56] probably more like a common [42:59] flower because roses weren't uh [43:02] in israel by this time they came from [43:04] china later [43:07] and then a lily of the valley so all [43:08] these you know wildflowers out there [43:11] she's saying [43:12] uh yeah you know i'm i'm i'm okay [43:15] i'm a common flower and he responds by [43:19] saying like a lily among [43:20] thorns is my darling among the young [43:22] women in other words if you're just a [43:24] common flower then everybody else is [43:26] just a thorn you know [43:27] you stand out so it's they're all [43:29] lugging up compared to you [43:30] [Laughter] [43:34] and then she responds by saying like an [43:35] apple tree among the trees of the forest [43:37] is my beloved among the young men [43:39] you know in other words you're a [43:40] distinctive fragrant [43:43] uh and apple trees are very [43:46] um they're evocative of the sensual [43:49] scene even up to [43:51] today when you have songs like you know [43:53] don't sit under the apple tree with [43:55] anybody else but [43:56] me so yeah so in other words [44:00] the could i say the phrase in chapter [44:03] two verse one [44:05] the very theme of his song is it just [44:08] comes [44:08] out ultimately out of nowhere uh there's [44:10] there's nothing in the text to justify [44:11] that phrase it might sound nice it might [44:13] preach well [44:14] it's just not true to the word of god [44:17] right yeah that's fair [44:20] and if you want to say something about [44:23] how precious we are to the lord there's [44:25] plenty of verses you can quote you don't [44:26] have to change [44:28] anything right right [44:31] um also in uh chapter eight verse six [44:34] brian simmons has a footnote [44:36] where he says the ancient hebrew word [44:40] for [44:40] seal can also be translated prison cell [44:43] and he likes to preach on this when he [44:44] goes out [44:45] as well he says that god longs for his [44:49] bride to be his [44:50] love prisoner in the prison cell of his [44:53] eternal love and [44:54] and to me this is surprising that that [44:56] phrase is in the footnotes [44:58] of an of a translation the hebrew word [45:02] seal [45:03] [Music] [45:05] is the word prison cell [45:08] prison cell [45:11] [Music] [45:14] be imprisoned in my life [45:19] take me as a prison cell [45:23] and be my love prisoner come into the [45:26] prison cell of my life [45:28] is that a factual error does seal mean [45:31] prison [45:32] cell i no [45:36] i'm i'm not familiar with that [45:39] meaning of the word um i'm not even sure [45:42] there were a lot of prison cells [45:44] in the ancient near east [45:47] you know they would throw jeremiah in a [45:50] cistern or something like that [45:52] but they didn't have jails as we know [45:55] them [45:58] so seal doesn't mean prison cell like [46:00] that's just there's no [46:02] foundational reality there whatsoever [46:05] i i i yeah that no [46:08] foundation reality a seal is this is a a [46:11] stamp seal it's the kind of seal where [46:13] you [46:14] will stamp something it's kind of like [46:16] your personal id [46:18] uh that you put on something it's a [46:21] it's a beautiful passage that talks [46:25] about [46:25] how the woman is asking the man to [46:29] essentially own her you know [46:33] and so it's an awful statement of [46:36] surrender mutual surrender to each other [46:38] and [46:40] so there's a lot of wonderful things in [46:41] there that you'll miss if you start [46:44] importing foreign text [46:48] yeah so where do you think he's getting [46:51] this stuff i mean if you're willing to [46:52] venture a guess [46:53] if not that's fine do you have an [46:55] opinion on where where this stuff is [46:57] coming from [46:59] uh well i think it's coming from his [47:02] imagination i mean i think it's coming [47:05] from [47:06] um you know if it weren't for the fact [47:08] that he's doing a translation [47:10] he's showing a lot of creativity shall [47:12] we say [47:13] but this is not the place to do that [47:16] type of [47:17] creativity in my opinion and then and [47:20] then [47:20] pass it off as if as if it's a [47:22] translation of the text [47:26] yeah and i realize this isn't your area [47:27] of focus but for me to hear him in all [47:29] these clips talking about how god's [47:31] giving him these insights i'm going to [47:34] enact some of this and show you some [47:35] things [47:36] about the song of songs that will just [47:38] be jaw-dropping [47:39] as we consider it there are mysteries [47:41] that have never come into your heart [47:44] that are going to be revealed before [47:45] your very eyes [47:47] i can't even exaggerate how big of a red [47:49] flag that is for those who are [47:51] following his teaching he becomes the [47:52] holy spirit guru [47:54] amongst large numbers of people at this [47:56] point and that's a whole other issue [47:59] on top of it all so the passion [48:02] translation [48:03] is ultimately the work of one man brian [48:05] simmons could you explain to the [48:07] audience who might not be familiar with [48:09] how translations work like how is that [48:10] different [48:10] than how most trustworthy translations [48:13] are made [48:16] yeah so um i'll give you the example of [48:18] a new living translation [48:20] which i worked on so [48:24] uh let's say i i was in charge as i said [48:27] of psalms and wisdom literature so i [48:29] started [48:30] with and we'll take the songs songs [48:32] example i did a translation of the song [48:34] songs according to the [48:37] you know translation philosophy that [48:41] we had as a central committee all bought [48:43] into and i worked [48:44] very closely with the [48:48] hebrew attacks looking at all the other [48:50] uh [48:51] versions like the septuagint and so [48:53] forth and i did a translation [48:55] then i sent it off to three other [48:57] experts uh whom i [48:59] trusted and respected who had written [49:01] commentaries on the book [49:03] and then he responded to my translation [49:08] and i was uh i had to [49:11] if two of them disagreed with my [49:13] translation [49:14] i had no i you know i couldn't say i [49:17] don't care what you say i [49:18] i had to adopt their translation and [49:21] this is good checks and balances on each [49:23] other [49:24] and we might and then it goes off to a [49:27] stylist [49:29] who takes our translation works with it [49:31] then i work with the stylist to make [49:32] sure that the stylist [49:34] who isn't an expert in hebrew um [49:38] you know didn't change the meaning and [49:40] then i sent it back to the three [49:42] trans other consultants [49:45] and we worked out and we usually had a [49:49] list of things that we were still [49:50] working on and then it went to the [49:52] central committee [49:53] which was made the six senior slaters uh [49:58] and the stylists plus four [50:01] people from uh [50:04] the press who tyndale house publishers [50:07] that was publishing it and who all were [50:10] very knowledgeable and insightful too [50:12] and and then [50:14] in that way so it's a long process [50:17] um yeah i mean a [50:21] individual translation might be more [50:24] lively [50:25] but that's because you don't have those [50:27] checks and balances and the liveliness [50:29] sometimes [50:30] goes too far so um [50:34] so and i but i think if if people read [50:37] the new living translation they'll find [50:38] that it's [50:39] not just um a responsible translation [50:43] but [50:43] it's also an interesting translation [50:45] it's a readable translation [50:47] i enjoy it i like the new living [50:49] translation [50:50] um so would you be surprised to find out [50:53] that brian simmons [50:55] the only qualification i'm able to find [50:57] is a phd [50:59] in prayer oh [51:02] i didn't know sorry i didn't know you [51:05] could get a phd [51:07] but uh well from well from the wagner [51:09] institute uh [51:10] he got it he got a phd in um [51:13] it's a specific area of prayer and [51:16] that's the only thing i could find i as [51:17] far as [51:18] his actual training in the languages at [51:20] least i couldn't come up with any sort [51:22] of proof [51:23] other than some claims that aren't as [51:26] far as i can tell substantiated [51:28] i can't find anything that's there and [51:30] okay i think the translation seems to [51:32] reflect [51:33] that i mean i think he's very smart it's [51:35] not like he's not intelligent [51:36] very intelligent just by my comment [51:39] about prayer i don't mean to minimize [51:41] the fact that prayer is really important [51:43] and i also want to say when we're [51:45] doing our translation and committee we [51:47] spend a lot of time in prayer too [51:49] i mean it's not like we're all a bunch [51:51] of uh [51:52] you know egghead academics and we only [51:55] care about [51:56] uh what hebrew roots mean we do care [51:59] about that but we also [52:01] you know you're not just a bunch of [52:03] spiritually dead religious scholars [52:05] that's not exactly exactly i mean [52:09] uh but um and that's one of the things i [52:12] found so exciting [52:14] about all the translations i worked on [52:17] whether it was the niv the nlt [52:20] uh or all the translations i worked on [52:23] everybody involved was just [52:26] vitally interested in communicating [52:29] god's message [52:31] to the world we felt a great [52:34] responsibility [52:37] to do our best and we worked really hard [52:42] to render it as well as we can and even [52:46] so i mean [52:47] every translation things that [52:50] uh can be improved on later but [52:53] yeah all the transl all the other [52:56] patients out there with the possibility [52:58] with the exception of the passage of the [53:00] passion translation i would say are [53:02] really [53:03] reliable responsible translations [53:07] yeah right on although you probably [53:08] haven't looked at the mirror bible but [53:10] that's another conversation you know [53:12] there's all these weird ones [53:14] out there right but um but yeah when i [53:16] when i did my own studies i i came from [53:18] a camp [53:18] that was very much like king james [53:21] only ish right like and so i was very [53:24] suspicious of other translations and [53:26] when i actually sat down and did my own [53:28] homework on the topic [53:29] i was so pleased to find out how [53:33] many good translations that have done a [53:34] really good job while there's [53:36] nitpicky things of course that i'd have [53:37] and maybe i'm right maybe i'm wrong [53:41] that that really by and large it's like [53:43] pick one [53:44] like we have lots of great translations [53:47] but [53:47] in your opinion when it comes to the [53:48] passion translation do you think it [53:50] should be in bookstores [53:52] in bible apps in places like bible [53:54] gateway alongside [53:55] other bible translations no i don't [53:59] i i think it should be marketed for what [54:03] it is [54:03] which is a kind of allegorical [54:07] interpretation re-reading [54:12] is way too far in my opinion to be [54:16] presented as a translation [54:20] of the hebrew text awesome i'm glad to [54:23] hear you say it [54:24] because after this project is over i'm [54:26] going to be sending this stuff over to [54:29] all these different people uh youversion [54:31] all the different apps and stuff to say [54:33] hey [54:33] here's scholars reviewing the work in [54:35] case because i just think they honestly [54:37] don't know a lot of them [54:39] and hey this isn't like a normal [54:40] translation and hopefully it'll make a [54:42] difference [54:43] and hopefully brian simmons won't sue me [54:47] well i mean i don't know how he could [54:49] sue you but uh you might try [54:51] i actually was hired as a consultant i [54:54] thought it was the bible gateway as to [54:55] what i thought about [54:57] putting the passion translation there [54:59] and my [55:00] conclusion was no you shouldn't but i [55:03] see it's still there so i'm not sure [55:06] i can't remember whether it might have [55:08] been the publisher who was asking me [55:10] whether they should actually publish it [55:12] i think that's what it was was i do a [55:14] lot of salty work so [55:16] some of them blend together i'm sure [55:17] you're on people's speed dial for a lot [55:19] of things yeah [55:21] okay so i'm gonna give you some quick [55:22] fire questions if i could just get like [55:24] one one sentence response [55:26] to these different things um do you have [55:29] anything nice to say [55:30] about the passion translations handling [55:32] of the song of songs [55:35] uh i don't have anything nice to say [55:37] about it as a [55:38] translation uh no i think it's a [55:41] misleading translation [55:43] okay here's a quote from actually let me [55:46] give you several quotes from the passion [55:48] translations website [55:49] this is the faq this is where people who [55:51] want to know more go [55:52] and here's just maybe your you know 10 [55:55] second response to each of these [55:56] quotes would be great the passion [55:58] translation is an excellent translation [56:00] you can use as your primary text [56:02] to seriously study god's word [56:06] i do not believe that the passion [56:09] translation should be used as a primary [56:11] or secondary translation [56:14] because it's not a translation of the [56:17] hebrew [56:18] and greek text all right this is a quote [56:21] from [56:22] um a very very influential pastor bill [56:25] johnson [56:25] who is being used to advertise the [56:27] passion translation he says [56:29] it is one of the greatest things to [56:31] happen with bible translation [56:33] in my lifetime and i would say that [56:35] that's a very misleading [56:37] uh statement [56:40] because it's not a translation but also [56:42] a lot of wonderful things have happened [56:44] in [56:44] bible translation particularly in the [56:47] 80s [56:48] and beyond and he was definitely alive [56:51] in the 80s so all right here's another [56:55] one [56:55] this this comes from page 8 of the new [56:57] 2020 edition [56:59] the passion translation is committed to [57:01] bringing forth the potency of god's word [57:03] in relevant contemporary vocabulary that [57:06] doesn't [57:06] distract from its meaning or distort it [57:09] in any way [57:12] passion translation distorts from [57:16] the meaning of the original language it [57:19] certainly [57:20] is very vibrant and potent language it [57:24] just doesn't [57:25] relate well to the original languages [57:28] let's pretend [57:29] in a that a christian turns to you and [57:31] says i'm getting the passion translation [57:33] my pastor [57:34] says it's the best thing that's happened [57:35] to bible translation in our lifetime [57:37] this christian loves the passion [57:39] translation they feel like it's [57:40] really blessed them if you had just like [57:42] 10 seconds to tell them what they needed [57:44] to know about [57:45] this translation what would you say i i [57:48] would [57:49] say that they should spend some time [57:51] comparing [57:52] the passion translation to other [57:54] translations and see [57:55] just how divergent it is from [57:58] those translations [58:03] yes a balance i always loved because [58:05] scholars always give me balanced and [58:06] thoughtful remarks [58:08] which is what i'm hoping for um [58:14] [Laughter] [58:18] now would you mind if you can if you [58:20] have your paper in front of you [58:21] if you could read to us the first two [58:23] sentences from your conclusion of your [58:25] paper [58:26] i just wanted to maybe get you on record [58:28] reading that i thought you [58:30] summarized your thoughts very well there [58:32] the passion translation [58:34] is a deeply flawed presentation of the [58:36] song of songs [58:38] its imposition of an allegorical [58:40] interpretation represses [58:42] the primary meaning of the book one [58:44] can't hear god's intended message [58:46] in this translation [58:50] and that's what i was hoping you would [58:53] share [58:53] [Music] [58:55] this is just the beginning of the [58:56] content i'm releasing for the passion [58:57] project i'm going to be interviewing a [58:59] number of different scholars [59:00] i'll be putting all their interviews up [59:01] for free and i'm going to make their [59:03] papers that they wrote [59:04] available for free as well you'll find [59:06] it on my youtube channel you'll see it [59:07] in the links below on every video i'll [59:09] put links to all the videos as they come [59:11] out and you can find it on my website [59:12] biblethinker.org [59:14] thank you so much for your support that [59:15] has made this project [59:17] possible we do need to get the word out [59:19] because this isn't [59:20] even a translation i welcome and [59:23] anticipate [59:24] a lot of scholars bringing their review [59:27] and bringing their comments to us [59:28] so excited about how this may shake the [59:32] translation world for for this [59:33] generation  ## Highlights - While Longman's credentials are relevant, the argument should stand on textual evidence - Note: 🔍 Fallacy: Appeal to Authority #fallacy/appeal-to-authority