After Pulse: Playing DevRel's Advocate  🔗 **Source:** [After Pulse: Playing DevRel's Advocate](https://share.snipd.com/episode/7a4d7dbb-f11d-4b07-97f7-0cd69de1f298) ## Highlights - **Pre Vet Big Asks With A Difficulty Anchor** - Pre-vet difficult proposals with an influential ally before presenting them. - Mecca Orieki's "difficulty anchor": get a respected team member to sign off so your idea arrives pre-vetted. Transcript: Wesley Faulkner And the first thing I wrote is some advice that I heard from Mecca Orieki, if you're familiar with him on social. He has this concept of a difficulty anchor, which is when you are approaching a project or you're approaching something that's hard. So to talk to the, find the most influential person on the team and get them to sign off on it first, basically have them vet it about your approach and what, what is right. And so then when you present the idea, you can say, well, I showed it to this person and they signed off on it. And so you can at least say like, hey, it's pre-vetted by the person that you admire the most when you're bringing ideas or changes. And so I thought that was something that came to mind. And I wrote it down to say like, that's a way that I've seen seen that to actually cope with being able to deliver bad news. ([Time 0:00:51](https://share.snipd.com/snip/37c6bd6f-2e9d-4d4d-abea-e2e57561c087)) - **Call Out The Specific Risk And Ask For Alignment** - Name the specific risk you care about (customer reaction, internal outcome, messaging) and ask others if they share it. - If even a few teammates agree, use that opening to pause and plan next steps together. Transcript: Mary Thengvall And again, going back to one of the things that I had mentioned that I learned from my coach that like, look, are, are we concerned about, I don't know, our customers reactions to this Release? Are we concerned about the internal outcome? If we launch this thing that people before have said they don't want, right? Like, are we concerned about the messaging? And if, if everybody comes back and says no, then like, okay. But if you have a few people who go, oh yeah, that's a, that's a fair point. I am concerned about that. Then there's an opening to be able to say, okay, we need to sit down, look this over, figure this out, decide on next steps, all of that type of thing. ([Time 0:02:07](https://share.snipd.com/snip/76fdf5ad-4ef8-4748-9423-61e3ce9528a1)) - **Incentives Not Intent Drive Cross Team Conflict** - Different teams act from different incentives, so conflict rarely stems from malice but from misaligned goals. - Use that lens to depersonalize conversations and invite collaborative problem solving instead of blame. Transcript: Jason Hand Cause I was, I was just about to say that the downstream effect is kind of, I think, what we always have an eye on, right? And somehow we have this pulse on what potentially could be the result of decisions. It's pattern matching, 101. We've been there. Um, and also we are, we've been around the block enough to know that this is like nobody's fault when there's like this like problem when there's, you know, butting heads or whatever Disagreements, it all comes down to incentives and we're all incentivized in different ways, uh, through work. Like, you know, some people, they have goals and OKRs and others, you know, just have like stuff that they're just, somebody asked them to do and they're literally just trying to help Somebody out, whatever. We have different stuff that we're working on. We have to acknowledge that first of all. But then also, I think once you do get into this situation where there's frustration between maybe multiple people, whether that's in DevRel and marketing or sales or whatever about, Hey, be careful with how you phrase this or whatever, you know, just letting them know that you acknowledge that it's frustrating for us to step in and say, Hey, let us, can we just think About this? Because if you put that out and we get roasted because we put something just misleading or wrong or whatever, and we just didn't think this through, like I'm the one who has to deal with That, you know? And it's not just a personal thing. Like me and also like Datadog as a company has to deal with that for a long time or whoever the, you know, you're, you're working about it's that's, I think kind of one of the questions, Mary, you brought up in the interview is like thinking about the public perception of your company, you're representing the brand and all that. Like we're constantly kind of looking out on, you know, for that, trying to protect that. And sometimes that means saying, eh, let's maybe not do that now, or let's not do it this way, or let's just rethink how we say this or make sure that our goals are aligned or just, you know, Like pump the brakes just a little bit. But also, I'm not just saying no to be, you know, like whatever, like, you know, raining on your parade. I have legit, you know, concerns and reasons. And let me lay those out. And let's work through and let's figure this out together. ([Time 0:03:06](https://share.snipd.com/snip/01065111-8574-4654-b9d3-82e78d7ba924)) - **Acknowledge Frustration Before You Push Back** - Acknowledge frustration and ownership when raising concerns so people don't feel attacked. - Say you understand it's frustrating, explain your legitimate concerns, and offer to work through solutions together. Transcript: Jason Hand But then also, I think once you do get into this situation where there's frustration between maybe multiple people, whether that's in DevRel and marketing or sales or whatever about, Hey, be careful with how you phrase this or whatever, you know, just letting them know that you acknowledge that it's frustrating for us to step in and say, Hey, let us, can we just think About this? Because if you put that out and we get roasted because we put something just misleading or wrong or whatever, and we just didn't think this through, like I'm the one who has to deal with That, you know? And it's not just a personal thing. Like me and also like Datadog as a company has to deal with that for a long time or whoever the, you know, you're, you're working about it's that's, I think kind of one of the questions, Mary, you brought up in the interview is like thinking about the public perception of your company, you're representing the brand and all that. Like we're constantly kind of looking out on, you know, for that, trying to protect that. And sometimes that means saying, eh, let's maybe not do that now, or let's not do it this way, or let's just rethink how we say this or make sure that our goals are aligned or just, you know, Like pump the brakes just a little bit. But also, I'm not just saying no to be, you know, like whatever, like, you know, raining on your parade. I have legit, you know, concerns and reasons. And let me lay those out. And let's work through and let's figure this out together. ([Time 0:03:54](https://share.snipd.com/snip/6f0d9dd7-60f2-4690-9f30-c9a08f61399a)) - **Frame Warnings As Shared Problems Not Blame** - Avoid assigning blame when warning about impacts; frame it as a shared problem to solve. - Reassure teams it's not about blaming product or people but about finding a joint solution. Transcript: Mary Thengvall Yeah. And part of that as well is, you know, I'm not, I'm not wanting to be frustrating. I'm not wanting to be negative Nelly. I'm not wanting to, whatever the phrases we want to use, but it's also, I don't blame you, right? Like I'm not saying you're the one that caused all of this. And sometimes there may be circumstances when it is one person who caused all of the issues. However, I think doing what we can to not, um, lay that blame, right? Not make people feel defensive about it, because if someone's going to feel defensive about, well, you know, you're saying that our customers are going to lose faith in me because of The way that the last product release went. It's like, no, not in you. Like there were circumstances beyond your control, we need to figure this out, right? We need to come up with a solution together. This is not on you. This is not on the product team. ([Time 0:05:38](https://share.snipd.com/snip/ff7737d5-0188-4f72-a9f7-d603c4933b74)) - **Easy Looks Different From The Edge Than The Center** - People often think a change is easy because they only see their small slice; experienced community pros see the downstream fallout. - Consider onboarding, support, capacity and sequencing before declaring a rollout 'easy'. Transcript: Wesley Faulkner It says, we're not, we didn't do this because we thought, no, we didn't do this because it was easy. We did it because we thought it was easy. Where sometimes the context that people who haven't been in situations before have a little bit of a naivete and us, we have the burden of knowledge. We have the burden of experience that when we see these things, we actually can understand like that is a bigger bite than we feel like we could chew at the moment or uh the the the type of Fall off after let's say if this is successful sometimes they're doing the right thing but they're doing it in the wrong sequence and if you're saying like let's let's assume we're this This this push this thing that you're doing is wildly successful. What are we going to do with the incoming? What are we going to do with the onboarding? What are we going to do with the support? What are we going to do with the capacity? All these things that people don't think through is the reason why they think it's easier because they only see the small slice that they are trying to tackle. And that, when we were talking about, uh, like, we want to bring, we represent the community to the company and the company, the community. Sometimes we represent other departments in the company to who we're talking to. Really? You want to do that? Have you talked to the events team? Uh, really have you done that? Have you talked to the marketing team to like make sure that they have everything they need really have you talked to this part of the team because we will need to make sure that this is All sequenced so that things work correctly and that's something that i have dealt with as well is the the problem of being more of a journalist and knowing all these things, but also Having the experience to have been through all of this. And when they come through that, let's just learn as we go. Let's just do this thing. And then I was like, I've learned that already. ([Time 0:06:58](https://share.snipd.com/snip/b98849e3-055d-4eb5-8115-25d85f910683)) - **Validate Cross Team Dependencies Before Launches** - Before committing to community-facing actions, check dependencies across teams like events, marketing, and support. - Use your cross-company view to confirm sequencing and resource needs so launches don't break downstream teams. Transcript: Wesley Faulkner Sometimes we represent other departments in the company to who we're talking to. Really? You want to do that? Have you talked to the events team? Uh, really have you done that? Have you talked to the marketing team to like make sure that they have everything they need really have you talked to this part of the team because we will need to make sure that this is All sequenced so that things work correctly and that's something that i have dealt with as well is the the problem of being more of a journalist and knowing all these things, but also Having the experience to have been through all of this. And when they come through that, let's just learn as we go. Let's just do this thing. And then I was like, I've learned that already. We don't need to relearn this. And it's really hard to make that point compelling about how much you know, because it's almost like precognition. I mean, I know what going to happen. And it's hard for me to convince you that I know that what's going to happen. Right, right. Mary Thengvall Yeah, I've been there. I've done that. We don't want to do it again. Let me help you understand where I'm coming from in my experience level. Because often also, we're not just the only ones talking to the community as well as internally in the company, but we're sometimes the only ones talking fully across the entire company And having a full understanding of, Hey, customer success team is dealing with this product team is dealing with this marketing teams dealing with this. Like everyone's got their own concerns. Everyone's got their own things that they're working on. ([Time 0:08:18](https://share.snipd.com/snip/684579ab-2ce8-4dd6-aab6-777a3cb86b9f)) - **Scars From Past Failures Become Pattern Radar** - Hosts describe carrying 'scars' from past crises as evidence of experience and pattern recognition. - Jason and Wesley say those scars let them foresee failures others call precognition when they warn about outcomes. Transcript: Jason Hand They show up in the form of scars is what it feels like. Like we just, we've seen, this has happened before, or we've heard through our community um and definitely i've said the you know the burden of knowledge type of phrases where like it Just it wears on me that's how i got all these great hairs just through stuff like this the only reason you can't see mine is because it's pink but uh you know i also find myself lately maybe Shying away from that idea of it's a curse to carry this burden of knowledge or whatever. I shared also in the show notes, one of the checkouts I had was the high agency thing that I've read here recently, like 30 minutes of high agency. And one of the things in there is the idea of like we you know i've said this before we're the adults in the room like it or not uh but they he kind of phrases in a different way of like the adults Aren't coming which i think is more of like maybe an house in wonderland type of metaphor but um that's part of like the agency i think that we have to like either leverage that we have and Say, you know, it's up to us to say, to put our foot down at the time that our foot needs to be put down or to speak up when we need to speak up. The adults aren't coming. It's the closest thing to the adults is us. We are the non, we're the senior people. And I think these scars only come with that seniority and, you know, the junior folks don't have that yet. ([Time 0:10:01](https://share.snipd.com/snip/367548ed-bef4-4850-8e35-789be67d4ac9)) - **DevRel As The De Facto Adults In The Room** - DevRel often becomes the 'adults in the room' by default, responsible for stopping bad sequencing when no one else will. - Embrace high agency: speak up or put your foot down where needed rather than waiting for others. Transcript: Jason Hand I shared also in the show notes, one of the checkouts I had was the high agency thing that I've read here recently, like 30 minutes of high agency. And one of the things in there is the idea of like we you know i've said this before we're the adults in the room like it or not uh but they he kind of phrases in a different way of like the adults Aren't coming which i think is more of like maybe an house in wonderland type of metaphor but um that's part of like the agency i think that we have to like either leverage that we have and Say, you know, it's up to us to say, to put our foot down at the time that our foot needs to be put down or to speak up when we need to speak up. The adults aren't coming. It's the closest thing to the adults is us. We are the non, we're the senior people. And I think these scars only come with that seniority and, you know, the junior folks don't have that yet. And, um, I don't know, back to like, speak up when you need to and, and push, push for things that are important and right. ([Time 0:10:35](https://share.snipd.com/snip/5de22d7c-f763-4693-b92b-6859edc68ef5)) - **Who Says It Matters As Much As What Is Said** - Social biases amplify the blast radius of pushback; identical ideas land differently depending on who speaks them. - Wesley warns ageism, sexism and racism can make being right costly and increase resistance to change. Transcript: Wesley Faulkner Yeah. That brings me to my last note that I wrote, uh, here is that, um, a real thing as well as there's a lot of isms uh in the workplace and uh sometimes i mean we all talk to maybe there's ageism Uh maybe there's sexism and maybe there's racism and so when so the the blast radius of uh of the the negative reception of ideas may be wider for certain groups. That when people are hearing this podcast, I want to also make sure that they understand that as well, is that you could have the best idea. You could be 100% right and still run into some headwinds that make it difficult or harder for you to have these battles or have these conversations. And so I just wanted to highlight that as well, because I know I've experienced it too, where someone could say the exact same thing that I've said, and it have 100% different impact. And sometimes there are consequences even for being right. And people can resent you for being right about something that won't go well because they might blame you for it. And so I just wanted to put a finer point on that now there as well. ([Time 0:11:58](https://share.snipd.com/snip/4d5c1fd4-3296-4c3b-9dff-8a2c22fa27e9)) - **Use Community Sharing To Reduce Isolation** - Share experiences and resources publicly so others know they're not alone and can learn faster. - Use podcasts, conversations and community input to surface tactics that worked and grow collective knowledge. Transcript: Mary Thengvall Yeah. Well, and I think part of it to me that's helpful is just recognizing that I'm not alone, right? It's not just me that's banging my head against a wall trying to get people to understand and going, okay, I will disagree and commit once again, but we do realize I'm always the one disagreeing, Committing, right? Okay. Okay. Right. So just, I think part of, part of why I love having these conversations, part of why I love recording these podcasts is just the idea that it helps everyone else know, Hey, it's not just You, right? Like we're all going through this. We're all sharing resources. If you have other things that you've tried that weren't brought up in this episode, please let us know, right? Like let's, let's all learn and grow together. ([Time 0:14:02](https://share.snipd.com/snip/c93352ce-b96c-4767-9377-479677854b3f))