All About Product Positioning - CourtneyR.dev's 2nd Brain

All About Product Positioning 🔗 **Source:** [All About Product Positioning](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=re7oTkZX6yk) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [positioning, product-marketing, business-strategy] > author: WP Product Talk > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=re7oTkZX6yk > date created: 2024-12-19 15:30 > > # 🏷️ Title: All About Product Positioning >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Define your enemy clearly — avoid confusion between tools/competitors — positioning requires clear opposition #positioning - [H2] Choose delivery model carefully — SaaS vs agency creates different customer expectations #business-model - [H3] Test positioning assumptions early — gather feedback before fully committing to market position #validation ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [BlinkMetrics](https://blinkmetrics.com) - [Building a Story Brand book](https://storybrand.com) ## 📝 Summary - Product positioning differs from messaging - it defines market lanes and customer segments, not just communication - Clear enemy identification helps customers understand value immediately (Slack vs email, BlinkMetrics vs spreadsheets) - Delivery model assumptions impact positioning success - SaaS vs agency creates different customer expectations - WordPress products face unique positioning challenges due to diverse user types (agencies, end users, developers) - AI threatens traditional utility positioning, forcing focus on higher-value outcomes and power users ## 📖 Main Content This discussion explores product positioning strategies through real examples from WordPress product creators. The hosts distinguish positioning from messaging, emphasizing that positioning defines which market segment and lane a product occupies. Key insights include the importance of clearly identifying an enemy or alternative that customers can immediately understand, how delivery model choices (SaaS vs agency vs one-time purchase) fundamentally shape customer expectations, and the growing need to position against AI-generated solutions. The conversation reveals how successful positioning requires understanding customer mental models, pricing psychology, and the specific pain points that drive purchasing decisions. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/re7oTkZX6yk?t=0) — [H1] Introduction: The Power of Clear Positioning - Key idea: Slack succeeded by positioning email as the enemy, not just describing features - Evidence: "Slack showed up with a very clear enemy and a really bold stance. They said email is broken. Inboxes are killing productivity and work communication needs a replacement" #### ⏱️ [03:15](https://youtu.be/re7oTkZX6yk?t=195) — [H2] Guest Introduction: Nathan Tyler's Product Journey - Key idea: Nathan has experience with both simple and complex positioning challenges - Evidence: "Simply Schedule Appointments is basically Calendly but all in WordPress you can say it in a few words and everybody kind of gets it" #### ⏱️ [05:42](https://youtu.be/re7oTkZX6yk?t=342) — [H2] BlinkMetrics Positioning Challenge - Key idea: Complex reporting tools require more nuanced positioning than simple utilities - Evidence: "BlinkMetrics came from a different place which is maybe not something that everybody leaps out of bed thinking about reporting and KPIs and scorecards" #### ⏱️ [08:30](https://youtu.be/re7oTkZX6yk?t=510) — [H2] AI Impact on WordPress Positioning - Key idea: AI threatens traditional utility positioning, forcing evolution toward power users - Evidence: "AI makes that really easily easy where you can say code me a thing that turns gravity form entries into a table there is no moat" #### ⏱️ [12:18](https://youtu.be/re7oTkZX6yk?t=738) — [H2] Product Naming and Positioning Alignment - Key idea: Product names can reinforce positioning strategy - Evidence: "Draw Attention, Simply Schedule Appointments - you have this thing where you are calling the thing exactly what it is so often" #### ⏱️ [16:45](https://youtu.be/re7oTkZX6yk?t=1005) — [H2] Agency vs End Client Positioning Strategy - Key idea: Targeting end clients can win both audiences when done correctly - Evidence: "If we make all of our positioning and messaging all about the success of a nonprofit fundraising effort, then we get that client and we win the agency" #### ⏱️ [22:30](https://youtu.be/re7oTkZX6yk?t=1350) — [H2] Spreadsheets as the Enemy for BlinkMetrics - Key idea: Spreadsheets represent manual, fragile processes that businesses outgrow - Evidence: "Spreadsheets is the way right? Somebody copy paste once a week into a spreadsheet from these different places and then it gets fancier and somebody sets up Zapier" #### ⏱️ [28:15](https://youtu.be/re7oTkZX6yk?t=1695) — [H1] Major Pivot: SaaS to Agency Model - Key idea: Delivery model fundamentally shapes customer expectations and pricing psychology - Evidence: "People would much rather spend instead of saying Hey, $500 a month. It's just $5,000. We build it. You own it" #### ⏱️ [33:20](https://youtu.be/re7oTkZX6yk?t=2000) — [H2] Customer Mental Models and Assumptions - Key idea: Fighting built-in assumptions about delivery models creates unnecessary friction - Evidence: "SaaS software is thought of very different than hiring a consultant. There's a lot of assumptions rolled up in that" #### ⏱️ [38:45](https://youtu.be/re7oTkZX6yk?t=2325) — [H2] Pricing Psychology and Mental Accounting - Key idea: How costs are categorized affects purchasing decisions beyond pure economics - Evidence: "They may think nothing of budgeting $10,000 to build a reporting dashboard custom, but they won't pay $1,000 a month for software" #### ⏱️ [42:10](https://youtu.be/re7oTkZX6yk?t=2530) — [H2] Gravity Kit's Evolution to Power Users - Key idea: Positioning must evolve as competitive landscape changes - Evidence: "We need to get ready for our support team to be ready to support more complex implementations of our products" #### ⏱️ [48:30](https://youtu.be/re7oTkZX6yk?t=2910) — [H2] Positioning Impacts Feature Development - Key idea: Clear positioning helps determine what features to build and what to reject - Evidence: "Simply schedule appointments is for simply scheduling appointments. It's not for tour, VIP ticket selling" #### ⏱️ [52:45](https://youtu.be/re7oTkZX6yk?t=3165) — [H3] Best Practices Summary - Key idea: Focus on clarity, use frameworks, and position around customer outcomes - Evidence: "Focus on outcomes. Position yourself around the success you're looking for in your customer" ## 📚 References - [BlinkMetrics](https://blinkmetrics.com) - [Simply Schedule Appointments](https://simplyscheduleappointments.com) - [Gravity Kit](https://gravitykit.com) - [Building a Story Brand](https://storybrand.com) - [GiveWP](https://givewp.com) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Product positioning defines which market segment you serve and how you differentiate from alternatives, going beyond just messaging to fundamental business strategy decisions - Successful positioning often requires identifying a clear enemy or inferior alternative that customers can immediately recognize and relate to their own pain points - The delivery model choice (SaaS subscription vs one-time project vs agency service) creates powerful customer expectations that can override explicit messaging about your actual service ## 📰 Newsletter **WordPress Product Positioning: Why Your Delivery Model Matters More Than Your Features** This week's WP Product Talk episode revealed a crucial insight that many WordPress product creators overlook: how you deliver your product shapes customer expectations more than what your product actually does. Nathan Tyler from BlinkMetrics shared his journey pivoting from a SaaS model to an agency approach for the same core service. Despite clearly stating "we build it for you" throughout his SaaS positioning, customers still expected self-service software with minimal support. The simple shift to "we're an agency that builds custom reporting dashboards" eliminated this friction entirely. The lesson? Fight positioning battles you can win. If customers have strong mental models about SaaS vs agencies vs one-time purchases, align with those expectations rather than trying to change them. **Key takeaways for WordPress products:** - Choose your enemy wisely (spreadsheets, email, manual processes work better than specific competitors) - Consider whether agency/service positioning might work better than pure product positioning - Test delivery model assumptions early - pricing psychology differs dramatically between subscriptions, projects, and ongoing services Resources: [Building a Story Brand](https://storybrand.com/), [WP Product Talk](https://wpproducttalk.com/), [BlinkMetrics Case Study](https://blinkmetrics.com/) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Create positioning workshops for WordPress product creators, focus on delivery model implications - Education: Develop curriculum around positioning vs messaging distinction, use WordPress ecosystem examples - Developer experience: Document positioning decisions in product documentation to maintain consistency - Developer marketing: Test positioning messages with different delivery model framings - Community management: Collect positioning feedback from WordPress product creator community #### WordPress - Community: Develop positioning resources for WordPress product creators, share successful case studies - Training: Create lesson plans around product positioning for WordPress business track - Marketing: Position WordPress itself against no-code/AI solutions by emphasizing customization and ownership - Documentation: Include positioning considerations in plugin/theme development best practices - Support: Train support teams to recognize positioning misalignment in user feedback #### Community - Maintainers: Help projects articulate clear positioning to attract right contributors - Contributors: Document positioning decisions to guide feature development priorities - Sponsors: Understand positioning when evaluating sponsorship alignment - Ecosystem: Coordinate complementary positioning across related projects ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Products with clear enemy positioning achieve faster market understanding than feature-focused positioning - Delivery model misalignment creates more customer friction than pricing or feature gaps - WordPress products targeting agencies vs end-users require fundamentally different positioning strategies - AI disruption will force utility products toward service/outcome positioning models ### 📊 Methodology - A/B test landing pages with different delivery model positioning (SaaS vs agency vs one-time) - Survey existing customers about their pre-purchase expectations vs reality - Analyze support ticket themes to identify positioning-reality gaps - Track conversion rates across different positioning message variants ### ❓ Questions - How will WordPress products need to evolve their positioning as AI capabilities expand? - What positioning strategies work best for horizontal vs vertical WordPress products? - How do global markets respond differently to various positioning approaches? ### 🔮 Future Research - Study positioning evolution patterns across successful WordPress products over time - Investigate cultural differences in positioning effectiveness across international markets - Analyze correlation between positioning clarity and customer lifetime value ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Product creators should test delivery model assumptions before committing to development roadmaps - Policy: WordPress community could develop positioning guidelines for ecosystem coherence - Security: Clear positioning helps customers understand appropriate use cases and security boundaries - Education: Business training should emphasize positioning-product alignment over pure feature development - Funding: Investors should evaluate positioning strategy as indicator of market understanding and execution capability ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 12th Grade #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Examples of successful positioning (Slack, GiveWP) with clear before/after comparisons - Improve: Positioning canvas templates, competitive positioning maps, customer journey visualizations #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Podcast format with conversational examples and real-world case studies - Improve: Audio positioning exercise walkthroughs, recorded positioning workshops #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Clear definitions of positioning vs messaging, analogies to understand concepts - Improve: Positioning statement templates, enemy identification frameworks #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Real product pivoting examples with concrete business impact - Improve: Interactive positioning workshops, hands-on positioning exercises #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Clear cause-effect relationships between positioning and customer behavior - Improve: Positioning decision frameworks, measurement criteria for positioning success #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Group discussion format with multiple perspectives and examples - Improve: Positioning peer review sessions, community feedback loops #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Individual case studies and self-reflection opportunities - Improve: Positioning assessment tools, private journaling prompts #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Ecosystem thinking about product relationships and market evolution - Improve: Market ecology metaphors, positioning adaptation strategies ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear heading structure and conversational audio format - Improve: Transcript with proper heading hierarchy, alt text for any visual examples #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard video player controls accessible via keyboard - Improve: Timestamped navigation links, skip-to-content functionality #### Contrast and readability - Present: Video format with clear audio, no visual-only information - Improve: High contrast transcript formatting, adjustable text sizing #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: YouTube's built-in accessibility features - Improve: Standalone transcript page with responsive design #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript provided - Improve: Professional captions with speaker identification, downloadable transcript #### Forms and interactions - Present: Simple video viewing interface - Improve: Interactive positioning assessment tools with proper labeling ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: US-focused examples but applicable principles - Improve: International positioning examples, cultural adaptation considerations #### Inclusive language - Present: Professional, accessible language without excessive jargon - Improve: Define technical terms, provide context for WordPress-specific concepts #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Conversational format with natural pacing - Improve: Content warnings for business/financial stress topics, clear section breaks #### Representation - Present: Multiple male perspectives from different business backgrounds - Improve: Include diverse gender representation, various business sizes and models #### Psychological safety - Present: Respectful discussion of business challenges and failures - Improve: Acknowledge emotional aspects of business pivoting, normalize positioning struggles ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Clear progression from positioning principles to specific examples - Inductive strength: Multiple case studies supporting positioning effectiveness claims - Causal reasoning: Strong connections between positioning changes and business outcomes - Analogical strength: Effective comparisons (Slack vs email, SaaS vs agency models) #### Fallacies - Survivorship bias: Focus on successful positioning examples without failed attempts - Hasty generalization: Limited sample size for delivery model conclusions #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Collaborative and educational, sharing real experiences and vulnerabilities ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No denial patterns present - Attack: No attacks on critics or alternative approaches - Reverse victim/offender: Not applicable to this business-focused content - Emotional cues and rhetoric: Positive, solution-focused approach to business challenges ## 🎯 Conclusion Effective product positioning requires alignment between customer expectations and actual delivery models. The key insight is that how customers categorize your solution (SaaS vs agency vs product) creates powerful assumptions that can override explicit messaging. WordPress product creators should test these fundamental positioning assumptions early and be willing to pivot delivery models to match market expectations rather than fighting ingrained customer mental models. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split --- ## Full Transcript [00:03] Hey everybody. If you were Woo Commerce [00:07] for example, uh you could just simply [00:09] say something like sell things online [00:11] and everybody will immediately get it. [00:13] It's clear. It solves the problem. They [00:16] understand the value right away. But [00:18] think back to when Slack first came on [00:20] the market. Early on, people had no idea [00:23] what they were all about. Um it was [00:25] like, is that chat? Is that messaging? [00:27] Um is this a social thing? Is this just [00:29] another tool? I don't know. But I think [00:32] what made it spread wasn't necessarily [00:35] the features so much. But Slack showed [00:37] up with a very clear enemy and a really [00:40] bold stance. Um they said email is [00:43] broken. Inboxes are killing productivity [00:46] and work communication needs a [00:48] replacement. Journalists at that time [00:51] called Slack the email killer. Teams [00:54] felt that pain immediately and suddenly [00:57] Slack made sense to everybody without [00:58] much of a demo at all. That is the power [01:02] of positioning. That's what we're going [01:04] to talk about on the show with you [01:07] today. [01:11] This is WP product talk. The place where [01:14] every week we bring you insights into [01:16] product marketing, business management [01:19] and growth, customer experience, product [01:22] development, and more. It's your go-to [01:25] podcast for WordPress product owners by [01:28] WordPress product owners. And now, enjoy [01:32] the show. [01:38] Hey everybody, I am Matt Cromwell, uh, [01:41] product creator and founder of WP [01:44] Product Talk. [01:44] >> And I am Zach Katz, founder of Gravity [01:47] Kit. [01:48] >> And before we get started, uh, I want to [01:51] say that we are on a road to hit 10,000 [01:53] YouTube subscribers. And the easiest way [01:56] for you to help us is to hit subscribe [01:58] right now. It takes just a second and it [02:01] makes a really big difference. Thanks a [02:02] bunch. [02:03] >> Yeah. And a huge thanks to Fremia for [02:05] being our exclusive growth partner on [02:07] the road to 10,000 subscribers. Uh if [02:09] you don't know about Fremius, Fremia [02:11] helps software makers grow, monetize, [02:13] and succeed. Fremius is a merchant of [02:15] record platform where they handle [02:17] everything around selling software like [02:19] checkout, payments, subscriptions, [02:21] licensing, updates, global tax [02:23] compliance, so you can focus on building [02:25] amazing products. [02:27] >> Cool. Cool. Announcements out of the [02:29] way. Today we want to talk about [02:31] positioning and we want to do that with [02:34] our special guest, Nathan Tyler. Nathan, [02:37] hey, welcome to the show. [02:38] >> Hey guys, thanks for having me. [02:40] >> Yeah, Nathan, welcome. Thanks so much [02:41] for being here. Uh, please tell [02:43] everybody a little bit about yourself. [02:45] >> Sure. So, I've been uh in the WordPress [02:48] game for a long time. I ran a web agency [02:50] building lots of WordPress sites. uh [02:53] built a few WordPress plugins, the main [02:54] one being Simply Schedule Appointments, [02:57] built a couple SAS products, the most [02:59] recent one being BlinkMetrics, and we'll [03:02] get into a little bit later, may have [03:04] accidentally fallen back into agency [03:06] life somewhat by accident. [03:09] >> It happens. [03:11] >> Thanks so much for coming on, Nathan. If [03:14] folks, if you are here watching this [03:15] live on YouTube right now, use that [03:18] comment comment section uh ask your [03:21] questions. If you have um questions or [03:24] problems with positioning yourself, put [03:26] them in there. We will highlight them [03:28] and uh answer them live on the show or [03:30] we'll just make Nathan answer all of [03:31] them because uh because he's the expert [03:33] this time around. Um so let's get into [03:37] it. So, Nathan, this whole subject came [03:39] up when you and I were chatting and we [03:42] were talking about bling metrics and the [03:44] subject of uh well, I mean, you were [03:48] talking about the problem you're trying [03:49] to solve and then it both of us I think [03:52] almost at the same time was like it's [03:53] all about positioning like it that's [03:55] that's a difficult subject. Tell me a [03:57] little bit about that problem. Tell me [03:59] about that context at link metrics and [04:02] uh and what you're doing about it. [04:04] >> Sure. So um I think some problems are [04:07] very easy to frame like simply schedule [04:09] appointments is basically calendarly but [04:11] all in WordPress you can say it in a few [04:13] words and everybody kind of gets it and [04:14] maybe they want it or they don't. Uh [04:16] blink metrics came from a different [04:18] place which is uh maybe not something [04:21] that everybody leaps out of bed thinking [04:22] about reporting and KPIs and scorecards [04:26] and reporting dashboards and often what [04:30] you are reporting on is different you [04:32] know depending on each business. It's [04:33] critical to businesses growing and [04:36] scaling their operations, but exactly [04:39] the pain that a person might feel to [04:43] jump over the ledge and say, "Okay, yes, [04:45] I want to do this um is different." And [04:48] so nailing down that positioning has [04:50] been quite a journey for for me to [04:52] figure out exactly where those places [04:54] are um and how to simplify the message [04:56] so people get it and can do that same [04:58] thing that we did with the other [04:59] positioning which is like okay I kind of [05:00] get what this thing is and I either [05:03] don't care or I am curious and I want to [05:04] learn more which is I think the main [05:06] goal of the positioning. [05:08] >> Yeah. And I feel like uh for me starting [05:12] positioning often starts from our own [05:14] pain pain points as developers uh [05:16] without even considering necessarily uh [05:19] how we're going to market it. But it's [05:20] like okay I need this done I need this [05:22] done now and maybe um leading up to this [05:26] point in time it's been okay because [05:28] Google search kind of aligns with the [05:30] queries that people were asking like how [05:32] do I do this? Well, you do that using [05:34] this like but I feel like the shift to [05:37] AI and the shift to um AI answers means [05:40] that we have to position things a lot [05:42] better uh so that it's answering a [05:46] broader question than the exact search [05:48] term match and so that when people get [05:50] to the website based on the AI uh auto [05:54] you know AI suggestions or the Google [05:56] search results that they know that that [05:58] fit is for them and there are a lot of [06:01] different uh problems with uh with [06:03] WordPress specifically because we have [06:05] so many different types of people who [06:06] are building the websites [06:08] >> and so you have to make sure that you [06:10] have the messaging and the positioning [06:12] for the people like the builders or the [06:14] end users depending on who is going to [06:16] be buying and suggesting your product. [06:19] >> I love it. Um I honestly another subject [06:22] we should maybe have Nathan on at some [06:24] point for is uh your your your product [06:28] brand name because you have this thing [06:30] Nathan where you are calling the thing [06:32] exactly what it is so often. Uh one [06:35] product you didn't mention is uh draw [06:38] attention that that was one of the early [06:40] products I remember you for. Um draw [06:43] attention folks is is basically like a [06:45] like a uh I don't want to say a heat [06:47] map. It's not really heat map. it focus [06:50] points like you create these focus [06:52] points on an image um and when you click [06:54] on them popups can come up and things [06:56] like that it's highly complex but like [06:59] the name draw attention I thought was so [07:00] clever and then you have seriously you [07:02] have simply schedule appointments as [07:05] well um and uh and then blink metrics in [07:08] my mind that's like you know metrics in [07:11] a blink like is that was that the can [07:13] you talk a little bit about how you [07:15] thought about blink metrics is what I'm [07:17] saying Yeah. So, I've worked in my [07:21] agency life. I did a lot of custom data [07:24] pipelines and custom reporting [07:25] dashboards. You'd be five or six figure [07:27] projects that would last, you know, six [07:29] months to two years. And what I've seen [07:32] is that every small business doesn't [07:34] have any of these fancy dashboards. You [07:36] don't hire a data scientist until [07:39] employee 100. So most companies just [07:42] have spreadsheets or they have 12 Chrome [07:44] tabs that they go check all the reports [07:45] and all their different tools. And so [07:49] if a small business is going to engage [07:51] data and use it meaningfully, it has to [07:53] be quick. They have a million things to [07:54] do. And the whole idea is that, you [07:57] know, in the blink of an eye at a [07:58] glance, you know, you can have your cup [08:00] of morning coffee and you can see the [08:02] numbers you need to see, you know, each [08:04] morning. You can see everything at a [08:06] glance as you close out the month or as [08:08] you close out a quarter. um it has to be [08:10] quick and exactly the view that those [08:13] people need. They don't have time to [08:14] kind of bounce around and just do [08:16] analysis for a whole day. So, a lot of [08:18] it's about speed. [08:20] >> Yeah, I love it. I feel like you're [08:22] thinking about positioning even as [08:23] you're naming your products, which I [08:25] think is really great. [08:26] >> Um I want to come back to to Nathan in a [08:29] little bit, but Zach, I feel like we you [08:31] we chatted about this before. I was glad [08:33] that you were a co-host today because I [08:35] feel like positioning for gravity kit [08:38] for data kit for um trusted login which [08:42] you don't talk about a lot um uh like [08:44] each of these need a lot of context um [08:48] how have you thought about positioning [08:50] for your products? Yeah, you know, part [08:53] of part of the way to do positioning [08:56] right is to think about uh each one of [08:59] the customer profiles and their pain [09:02] points and come up with, you know, what [09:04] their worldview is and uh maybe uh [09:08] creating a villain that they like what [09:10] what what they don't like the most and [09:12] saying how you solve that painoint and [09:15] then identifying the pricing and like [09:17] positioning is not just the customer [09:19] profile. It's also about like the the [09:21] market that you're in and the like uh [09:24] what what other products they're looking [09:26] at and how your pricing in relationship [09:28] to that. And then it's also um [09:33] the different uh the different decision- [09:36] making points like uh the different [09:38] roles that they are in. So like who they [09:40] have to convince and it's so many [09:43] different things all in one. And we do [09:44] not do that well. We uh I do not do that [09:48] well. I'll speak for myself. Um, so when [09:50] doing trusted login the the positioning [09:53] was some you have to say why we chose to [09:56] say why the other login without password [09:59] options were not good and they're not [10:01] good because it's if you have a link [10:03] that is a login it's a it's sharing your [10:06] password essentially. So that's it's not [10:08] secure. Uh and then you have to address [10:11] the customer support side of things [10:13] where if uh making it easier to provide [10:15] customer support and like talking about [10:18] how trusted login integrates with your [10:20] support desk and and is integrates with [10:23] your plug-in so it's one click to grant [10:24] access to a website. So it's not only [10:27] more secure, it's also easier for [10:29] customer support. None of that matters [10:32] to the decision makers. The decision [10:34] makers ask, how is this going to save my [10:36] team time and money? it's a pain in the [10:38] it's a pain in the neck to uh to grant [10:41] access to websites and like solve that [10:44] problem for me. So the positioning of [10:48] trusted login is downplaying the [10:51] security aspect of it even though it is [10:53] secure. Uh Chris Lema gave me that [10:55] feedback and said [10:57] >> nobody cares about security. They just [10:59] want things to like to to be easier and [11:01] better. Uh, so he really didn't think [11:04] the security thing was important to [11:06] mention at all, even though it's one of [11:07] the things that trusted login solves [11:09] really well. [11:10] >> Nathan, what what do you think about [11:12] that? [11:14] >> Yeah, I I think definitely as [11:16] developers, we focus on the technical [11:18] aspects that are very important, but [11:20] other people may just assume or take for [11:22] granted, right? Like they they're going [11:23] to assume that it's secure. Um, but [11:26] >> right, they should not assume that, but [11:29] they do. Yeah. [11:31] >> Yes. There's lots of shoulds and I I ran [11:33] into some of those as well. I think as [11:35] you were talking about competition and [11:37] like how the decision gets made and how [11:40] they're perceiving it. Um I ran into [11:42] that with Blinkmetrics because there [11:45] were a number of people I was selling it [11:47] as a SAS subscription and there are for [11:50] many people $1,000 a month is a huge um [11:56] investment. It's a very expensive [11:58] software, but at the same time, they may [12:01] be paying somebody a h 100red grand a [12:03] year to do the same job. Salaries get [12:05] thought of differently. And also [12:07] bringing on like a project like a [12:09] consultant to execute something is also [12:11] thought differently. They may think [12:12] nothing of budgeting $10,000 to build, [12:16] you know, a reporting dashboard custom, [12:19] but and they may hire somebody for [12:21] $100,000 a year and one of their main [12:24] responsibilities will be building this [12:25] thing, but they won't pay $1,000 a month [12:28] for software. So, I think some of the [12:29] positioning too actually gets into the [12:32] packaging and like how you're going to [12:34] deliver the thing is also part of how [12:37] you [12:38] >> what you have to think through with [12:40] positioning. [12:41] >> Yeah. [12:44] Yeah, I'll say from um my experience um [12:49] with GiveWP, I'll say one of the things [12:52] that we went back and forth on when it [12:54] came to uh positioning was essentially [12:58] something that a lot of WordPress folks [13:00] think through is should we be uh [13:04] messaging at the agency u or at the end [13:08] client. Um, and I that's I mean everyone [13:12] thinks through that because everybody [13:14] recognizes most everybody most all [13:16] plug-in shops recognize how significant [13:18] the agency is in the plug-in [13:21] decision-making process for any given [13:24] website. Particularly in the nonprofit [13:26] space, uh there's very very very many [13:28] nonprofits who are not building out [13:30] their own websites at all. They're [13:32] outsourcing that to an agency and [13:34] they're like, "And we need to do [13:35] donations. We don't care what you [13:36] choose. just pick something that works [13:38] for us. Um, so if we made the GiveWP [13:42] website all about like serve your [13:44] clients best with our donation plugin, [13:47] like we'd probably get a bunch of agency [13:49] clients, [13:50] >> um, but maybe at the expense of the [13:54] millions of charities that are out [13:56] there. So, we tried to think about how [14:00] could we have our cake and eat it too. [14:02] And at the end of the day, we decided [14:05] that and I think it was a winning [14:06] strategy at in reflection. Um we decided [14:10] that if we make all of our positioning [14:12] and messaging all about the um the the [14:17] success of a nonprofit fundraising [14:21] effort, then we get that client and we [14:26] win the agency. Because what we wanted [14:29] was that when that agency lands on our [14:31] website, they don't see a tech tool. Um, [14:34] they see their client on our website. [14:37] They see they see, oh, this is exactly [14:39] what my client wants. Um, and that way [14:44] we felt like we were going to get [14:45] basically two birds with one stone [14:48] essentially. And over the years, I feel [14:50] like that's gone actually really, really [14:52] well. And that positioning ended up uh [14:54] impacting our the way that we wrote our [14:57] blog articles, uh the way that we built [14:59] out our features, everything ended up [15:02] being um [15:04] uh starting with that that main focus of [15:07] what does it does success look like for [15:11] um nonprofits who are doing online [15:13] fundraising? Um and what how do they [15:16] describe these things in their own [15:18] words? um and how can we optimize that [15:22] um for them? Um and I and we have plenty [15:25] of agency clients uh at GiveWP over the [15:28] years um and um they often say, "Yeah, [15:31] my client loves it and they're so [15:32] thankful for it." So, [15:34] >> and I think that there's a large aspect [15:36] there of making sure that people see [15:38] themselves in your product, on your [15:41] website, in your screenshots, in your [15:43] testimonials. [15:44] uh your marketing materials really show [15:47] who you expect your best clients to be. [15:51] And I think when it comes to positioning [15:54] uh you know uh having a premium model is [15:57] a large statement about who you're how [16:00] you're positioning yourself. Y [16:01] >> you're positioning yourself as an [16:03] entrylevel possibly like uh as appealing [16:07] to an entry-level market as opposed to [16:10] having paid only and that sets another [16:12] bar. But if you're paid only and you [16:14] start at $20 a year, that's different [16:16] than starting at $300 a year. So, I [16:18] think that when you're positioning [16:20] yourself, you you got to look around and [16:23] say like, who do I want as customers and [16:26] really narrow into that uh like and [16:28] knowing that if you are targeting [16:31] hundreds of dollars a year customers, [16:33] you are leaving a lot of customers on [16:35] the table, but they are uh lower annual [16:38] revenue customers. Uh [16:40] >> yeah. [16:41] >> Yeah, [16:42] >> that's really important. I want to back [16:43] up just a little bit and there is a [16:45] distinction that I want to make clear to [16:47] everybody between messaging and [16:50] positioning and I and Zach you that was [16:52] a great example of positioning not just [16:55] simply messaging u you're saying that [16:57] this is this is the lane that we run in [17:00] um this is this is the the type of of um [17:04] segment that we are targeting and [17:06] similarly um at give in particular um we [17:11] you know our tagline line was always [17:13] democratizing generosity and that was a [17:16] call out to WordPress's motto. So we [17:18] were like really positioning ourselves [17:21] as a WordPress solution, not a SAS [17:23] solution specifically, but we also [17:26] really leaned in in the early days. We [17:28] really leaned in on on owning your own [17:31] donor data. that was really important to [17:33] us um because the um the competition [17:38] that we had uh at the time was mostly uh [17:41] SAS platforms and um and really [17:43] expensive SAS platforms. Uh so [17:46] positioning ourselves as like don't [17:48] share your donor data with random third [17:51] parties who might be selling that off to [17:54] advertising agencies or other things [17:55] like that because that did happen back [17:57] in the day. It doesn't really happen [17:58] with the big SAS anymore. Um but we were [18:03] positioning ourselves as as a a GPL um [18:07] distributed u product as in opposition [18:10] to the SAS's. Um this this kind of thing [18:13] I could talk about for forever. One one [18:15] more quick example. Um as things evolved [18:18] and changed over time, SAS's also got a [18:21] lot cheaper. So our our advantage of [18:24] being more affordable as a whole really [18:27] started to get eroded. And so they had [18:29] these really large all-in-one solutions [18:32] that also were a lot more affordable [18:34] than they used to be. Um, so we had to [18:38] start then start really leaning in on uh [18:41] build any fundraising campaign that you [18:43] want. Uh, because even though they were [18:46] big all-in-one solutions, they still [18:48] when it came to the way that you build [18:50] out your fundraising pages were pretty [18:52] cookie cutter overall. Uh whereas with [18:55] WordPress, you can customize it to do [18:57] whatever you want and make it look [18:58] however you want it to look. Um so all [19:01] these things are just highlighting [19:02] different ways that you're like as [19:04] opposed to this, you can do this with [19:07] us. Um trying to distinguish and [19:09] differentiate um uh which kind of [19:12] customers you're looking for. [19:15] Long-winded. Sorry, Zach, you were gonna [19:17] say something. [19:18] >> Oh. Uh well, I I wanted to ask Nathan [19:21] because uh on the BlinkMetrics website, [19:24] which is blinkmetrics.com, you all [19:26] should check it out. Uh you position the [19:28] enemy uh as spreadsheets. So you say [19:32] take your business reporting out of [19:34] spreadsheets for good. Um one of the one [19:37] of the things that I've seen people do [19:39] is say in, you know, compare with, you [19:42] know, like think of a generic uh [19:45] medicine on the shelves. It says like [19:47] compare with Tylenol. So like it's kind [19:50] of like Tylenol but it's cheaper. [19:52] >> Um what [19:55] who is your enemy at Blink Metrics and [19:57] how did you decide that like [19:58] spreadsheets are the issue that you [20:00] really wanted to to get away from? [20:02] >> Yeah. Uh well be I think because you [20:05] know small businesses don't have you [20:07] know data scientists on staff. They [20:08] don't typically have nice automated [20:11] reporting dashboards. Spreadsheets is [20:12] the way right? If anybody's trying to [20:14] bring sanity to their business, somebody [20:16] in that business copy paste once a week [20:18] into a spreadsheet from these different [20:20] places and then it gets fancier and [20:22] somebody sets up Zapier and the Zapier [20:25] Zap is pushing rows into a table and [20:27] you've got VLOOKUPs and there's usually [20:30] only one person in the organization who [20:32] even knows all the pieces. And if that [20:35] zap year zap breaks eight months from [20:37] now, like maybe even the person who [20:39] built it doesn't remember and it's it's [20:40] always this kind of internal [20:42] Frankenstein project. And I think most [20:45] people can relate to that. They can also [20:47] usually point me to the person who has [20:48] the spreadsheet. And that spreadsheet is [20:50] the perfect blueprint for what should be [20:53] nice automated reporting because even if [20:55] all that works, there's a lot of manual [20:57] effort and a lot of things to go wrong [20:59] and break. And if that person's sick, it [21:00] doesn't happen. [21:03] you still are still limited. Like you [21:05] can't make that spreadsheet 10 times [21:08] more complex without making it 10 times [21:10] more work. You can't segment it by [21:12] customer or by employee or by product [21:15] line. You can't look at it weekly and [21:17] monthly and quarterly. You know, you [21:19] can't look at year-over-year changes [21:21] quarterly. You know, it's all this work, [21:24] but it's still severely limited in a lot [21:26] of ways. And it I did actually [21:31] have some conflict with the siding about [21:33] spreadsheets because I think some people [21:34] kind of love their spreadsheets. They're [21:35] very proud of [21:36] >> people who love spreadsheets love [21:37] spreadsheets [21:38] >> and they're very proud of it. And there [21:40] is kind of this sense of like oh like [21:42] I've built this view that shows me [21:44] things. But I think at some point that [21:46] crosses a line for somebody where it [21:48] becomes this burden they have to [21:50] maintain or the first or second or third [21:51] time it breaks. Uh then they're like I [21:54] kind of love and hate this thing. I want [21:55] this information. I don't want to spend [21:59] my life filling this thing out. I want [22:00] to actually be analyzing it or, you [22:03] know, and and making a better decision [22:06] or getting proactively alerted, you [22:08] know, when these things happen as [22:09] opposed to kind of having to always go [22:11] in a monkey with this spreadsheet. So, [22:13] >> and who who are you positioning against? [22:15] Like uh what how do you how do you [22:20] choose uh your pricing and how do you [22:22] choose like who you're com like I I [22:25] assume if people are looking into [22:26] reporting they're looking at a bunch of [22:28] different things like Microsoft BI and [22:30] other stuff. [22:32] >> Yeah. So, um I think that's been one of [22:35] the challenges in our positioning is I [22:37] think we're filling a gap that's [22:40] a good opportunity, but there's not a [22:41] lot of straight up competition because [22:43] basically you're going to um hire a [22:46] super expensive agency and build out [22:48] where you're going to hire internally. [22:50] And that's often like we find in we bump [22:52] into people there's somebody technical [22:55] in the company. Maybe they have this [22:56] spreadsheet and they're drowning and [22:58] they're ready. Or maybe there's somebody [22:59] who's like, "Okay, we got to try to [23:00] build this in Looker Studio is often one [23:02] of the first attempts [23:04] >> or a PowerBI or uh metabase." You know, [23:07] any of these things that are kind of [23:10] approachable to a technical person. Um, [23:13] and then they kind of find out like [23:15] actually there's this whole other jungle [23:17] of necessities like Looker Studio is can [23:20] make a pretty graph, but how do I get my [23:22] help scout data or my WordPress purchase [23:25] data into Looker Studio? Well, actually [23:27] that's quite complicated. You have to [23:29] use the API and pull it in somewhere and [23:32] rate limits and you got to clean up the [23:34] data and you gota all of this and then [23:36] Looker Studio is just the visualization [23:38] piece. It's like one of three or four [23:40] pillars that you need. Um, so [23:43] positioning has been challenging because [23:45] what I described doesn't fit into three [23:47] or four words. Um, but you know custom [23:50] reporting dashboards is kind of the [23:53] thing that we are delivering at the end [23:54] of the day and that's often people do [23:57] know that that's what they're looking [23:58] for. Um, so we we try to catch people at [24:02] various stages of that journey. Um, but [24:05] it is is tricky to nail down. [24:07] >> Yeah. Tell us a little bit. We were [24:09] talking before the show about some [24:11] pivoting that you're doing um based on [24:14] um these positioning experiments and [24:16] then listening to customer feedback. [24:19] You're in the middle of a big shift. Um [24:22] um is this shift done? Are you able are [24:24] are you okay talking about this? [24:26] >> Yes. Yeah. Yeah, it's it it's done. I [24:28] I've been kind of soft uh doing in [24:31] conversations one-on-one for the last [24:33] couple months and then we just went [24:34] ahead and made the official shift. Um, [24:37] so one of the things around positioning [24:38] is [24:40] >> it it's all about assumptions, right? [24:41] You're saying three or four different [24:43] words and like people are kind of like [24:44] deciding what is this thing? Is it for [24:46] me? Do I care? All very quickly. And one [24:49] of those assumptions is like the [24:51] delivery model. Um, SAS software is [24:54] thought of very different than hiring a [24:56] consultant, you know, or an agency to do [24:59] a thing. And there's a lot of [25:00] assumptions rolled up in that. And we [25:02] actually operate much closer to an [25:04] agency model. We basically do we build [25:06] exactly a custom thing that somebody [25:08] wants uh to show them everything in [25:11] their business that's difficult or [25:12] impossible to answer. We build a a [25:15] reporting dashboard in 30 days. We meet [25:16] with them once a week. You know, we [25:18] staff a data analyst or data engineer to [25:20] build it um during those 30 days. But [25:24] when we were positioning as a SAS [25:26] product, like people, [25:28] it's a huge uphill battle to convince [25:30] them of that because there's some [25:31] built-in assumptions. SAS is, you know, [25:34] support's going to be terrible. [25:36] Onboarding is going to be a joke. Like, [25:38] um, we can say all these things. You [25:40] know, we give great support. We're going [25:42] to hold your hand and and help help you [25:44] in onboarding. But even in my second or [25:47] third conversation with people, they [25:48] there would be a moment where they'd [25:50] say, "Oh, you're going to build this for [25:52] me? I I thought I was going to have to [25:54] learn this platform and it was going to [25:56] be this big project and you know it says [25:58] it five different places on our site and [26:00] we build it for you and 100% done for [26:03] you in 30 days and like it's everywhere [26:05] but people just think of software very [26:08] differently. Um, so we've actually kind [26:11] of finally stopped fighting that and [26:13] embraced an agency model, which is we [26:17] people have assumptions about agencies, [26:19] which is they're going to build it for [26:20] me and they're going to deliver a thing, [26:23] you know, a deliverable and then maybe [26:26] there's ongoing support options or maybe [26:27] there's there's not. But, um, we're [26:32] making that shift to that model and it's [26:34] going a lot smoother. Um, people [26:37] understand [26:39] that model much more easily. [26:41] >> Well, it feels like exactly the hope and [26:44] the goal of correct positioning um is uh [26:49] is that it would just resonate a ton [26:51] more with the audience and they would it [26:53] would remove a lot of the friction of [26:55] adoption uh or of um of signing up in [26:58] the first place. Um I mean it's early [27:01] early days, but is that what you're [27:03] sensing and feeling is happening [27:04] already? Yeah, because with the SAS [27:06] model, I would have a conversation that [27:08] was going pretty well and we get to the [27:09] pricing and literally like this verbatim [27:13] was like, "Oh, [27:16] uh, I thought this was a thing you were [27:18] going to build for me and then we were [27:19] going to be done or something." And and [27:21] so that kind of confusion was really [27:25] problematic. And and I think the mental [27:27] accounting of like I'm going to have the [27:29] weight of this $500 or,000 subscription, [27:32] you know, forever is feels heavy and it [27:35] feels like a big decision that we get [27:37] put off. Um, but people would much [27:39] rather spend instead of saying, "Hey, [27:42] $500 a month. It's just $5,000. We build [27:45] it. You own it. We can show you how to [27:47] set it up. We can probably host it 10 [27:49] times more effectively and we have all [27:51] this other stuff, but a much lower [27:54] ongoing cost. It's much closer to a [27:56] website model, which is we're going to [27:58] build you a WordPress website and then [28:00] you can go host it elsewhere or we can [28:02] host it and manage it and do updates and [28:04] everything for you for a very reasonable [28:06] cost. Um, [28:10] >> they can actually take your blink [28:13] metrics setup and host it somewhere [28:15] else. [28:16] >> Some of it so we we've pivoted some of [28:18] our custom reporting dashboards like the [28:20] main core component actually can be [28:22] self-hosted. It doesn't really make much [28:24] sense. There's nobody who could host it [28:26] cheaper than us, but like just the fact [28:28] that it's a choice is I mean 90% of the [28:32] people have chosen for us to host it [28:34] anyway. Um but I think the fact that it [28:36] is a choice just fits more in line with [28:39] the thinking because they're a bit of an [28:41] education process. The same thing with [28:42] websites. If you sell a website, people [28:44] think it's free afterwards and well, it [28:46] has to be on a server somewhere and [28:48] maybe a fast server if you have lots of [28:50] traffic and if you have an e-commerce [28:52] store and lots of dynamic things, you [28:53] need a bigger server, you know, and you [28:55] kind of have that conversation and [28:57] education process with the client, you [28:59] know, along the way. Um, and we can do [29:02] the same thing on our side. [29:04] >> Yeah. [29:06] >> Yeah. And Matt, how much do you think um [29:09] addressing objections is part of [29:11] positioning [29:13] >> addressing objections? [29:15] >> Yeah, like Nathan was saying, you know, [29:16] people would say, I don't want the [29:18] ongoing costs or I don't I want to be [29:20] able to help it, like host it myself. I [29:23] I want to be able to customize after [29:24] it's built. Uh I don't want to have to [29:27] build it myself. Like, is that [29:29] positioning? No, I think it's uh it's [29:33] feedback um that maybe the positioning [29:36] was off in the first place. Um that's [29:39] that's how I would think. Uh and I think [29:41] that a little bit of what Nathan is [29:43] saying is that they did get some [29:46] feedback that was more like, well, this [29:48] isn't exactly the way I want it. And [29:51] they found that feedback to be valid and [29:54] important. Uh and so they adjusted and [29:56] they're early enough. they're early [29:58] enough in the product and the company [29:59] that they can do that kind of [30:01] significant pivoting now. Um, and [30:04] ideally that means that they've [30:06] reggrounded correctly. Um, and they'll [30:09] see they won't have that kind of uh [30:11] feedback going forward. Now there might [30:15] be future negative feedback that comes [30:17] in. Everybody has has feedback that's [30:19] like, oh, it doesn't do this thing that [30:20] I want or oh, it doesn't do that thing I [30:22] want. In those cases, it's easy to to [30:25] frame that feedback in like, well, that [30:27] is a valid feature request that we [30:29] should do and we can speak to that [30:31] better in the future or or it's a [30:35] validation of like, well, they're just [30:36] not our customer. Um, right. So, [30:40] you know, ideally if if you're getting [30:42] that kind of like the whole thing is not [30:45] the way I want it to be, well then [30:47] either they're just absolutely not your [30:49] customer at all or there's something [30:51] wrong with your website that you didn't [30:53] you didn't message your positioning very [30:56] well um and you're attracting the wrong [30:58] people. Um or yeah or there is something [31:03] foundational that you have to pivot on [31:05] which um which I I love this example [31:07] that that Nathan's brought up. [31:09] >> Yeah. I had a call recently with a [31:10] founder uh when I was demoing their [31:13] their SAS and I was really interested [31:17] and it's like build your own [31:18] documentation by by using turning a [31:20] video into step-by-step how-to guides [31:22] and like automatically building your [31:24] library. And it was exactly the kind of [31:25] thing that I'm really focused on right [31:27] now at Gravity Kit. Um, and I said, [31:29] "Well, do you have an API or are you [31:32] able to uh to export these as like [31:34] markdown files or HTML or can I connect [31:37] with Zapier so I can actually like host [31:39] it on my own website?" And he was like, [31:40] "Yeah, you're not the right customer for [31:41] us." [31:42] >> Yeah. [31:42] >> I felt really upset because like so [31:45] rarely do people say that [31:47] >> and he said it very directly. He said, [31:48] "You're not our target customer." Yeah. [31:50] We are looking for people who don't want [31:52] to do it themselves, who have who want [31:54] it all to be hosted by us and to be done [31:56] automatically. And I'm like, "Well, I [31:59] still want to find a way to hack your [32:00] product because it's really cool." [32:03] >> They're like, "Nope." I Yeah, that's a [32:05] good one. We have a [32:07] >> one of the things that uh Oh, go ahead, [32:10] Matt. [32:10] >> No, you go. One of the things that we're [32:13] dealing with at Gravity Kit and this has [32:14] been over the course of the past couple [32:16] of years now is for Gravity View is our [32:20] flagship product where you take Gravity [32:21] Forms entries and you could display it [32:23] on your the front of your website and [32:25] turn it into a directory that people can [32:27] edit themselves and uh export and chart [32:30] and things like that. Um [32:33] the problem is is that that is becoming [32:35] incre inc increasingly easy to do with [32:37] other tools including hello AI like AI [32:41] makes that really easily easy where you [32:43] can say you know code me a a thing that [32:45] turns gravity form centuries into a [32:47] table there is no moat there is no uh [32:51] reason why you would pay for us to do it [32:53] other than having you know excellent [32:54] support and also ongoing updates. So, [32:58] one of the things that we realized was [32:59] that our target customer was going to be [33:01] more and more advanced and more uh [33:03] sophisticated in the requests that they [33:05] have, which means that we need to do a [33:08] better job of enabling them to build [33:10] powerful apps that connect to the [33:12] different parts of our uh our product [33:14] suite. and that we need to get ready for [33:16] our support team to be uh to to be ready [33:20] to support more complex implementations [33:22] of our products where they are [33:25] connecting more pieces and there are [33:26] more deep like in-depth bugs. So we've [33:29] been over the course of the past few [33:31] years dealing with fewer simple [33:33] questions because we've added a bunch of [33:35] documentation over that time to address [33:36] these questions. But more and more we [33:39] are building apps and powerful things [33:41] that replace um you know a bunch of [33:44] other SAS products [33:46] >> uh built with gravity kit with your own [33:48] data uh but that transition into build [33:51] powerful apps with gravity forms data [33:54] >> um has it's been tough to to communicate [33:57] the value there um where it's like [33:59] gravity forms app builder is gravity kit [34:03] >> but it's not just saying it it's also [34:05] shifting our pricing model has gotten [34:07] more expensive because we are now [34:09] enabling more powerful things and we [34:11] need to do more support to support that. [34:13] >> Um and it's also our new website looks [34:16] more professional. It looks like a [34:17] little dark mody. Um we added you know [34:21] we have recently relaunched our website [34:23] to look more professional. Um so it's [34:26] not just a matter of saying we're doing [34:28] things differently now. It's also [34:30] implementing structural changes to to [34:33] back up that pivot to be more resilient [34:36] to AI incursion and also to to address a [34:39] power user customer that we found were [34:42] our higher value customers in the first [34:44] place. [34:44] >> That's cool. That's another really great [34:46] example. I mean it sounds like you are [34:49] coming back to your positioning, your [34:52] original positioning because of a new [34:54] existential threat essentially. [34:57] >> Yeah. um like you're like, "Hey, people [35:00] can vibe code this functionality and [35:02] we're not going to survive if we are [35:04] just this utility." Um [35:06] >> they're going to think they can vibe [35:08] code it. [35:08] >> Yeah. Yeah. [35:10] >> Even if you have the if your customers [35:11] have the thought, "Oh, I can do this [35:13] myself." And I'm Nathan and I had a call [35:15] about Blink Metrics a year ago or like a [35:17] few months ago and I was like, "This is [35:19] amazing. This is exactly what we need." [35:21] And in the back of my mind, I'm like, [35:22] $500 a month? Maybe we could do it [35:24] ourselves. We have a metabase [35:25] installation. like I don't know if it's [35:27] the right choice. At 5,000 one time, I'm [35:29] thinking, well, maybe Nathan and I [35:31] should have another conversation. [35:32] >> Literally, that happened before the [35:34] call. He was like, "No, it's 5,000 bucks [35:36] a pop." And and and Zach was really [35:38] like, "Oh, I'm interested. [35:40] >> I saw this happen immediately." [35:43] >> Yeah. [35:43] >> Yeah. It would have been done in 30 [35:45] days. [35:46] >> It would have been done and it would [35:47] have been great and I would have been [35:48] very happy already. Yeah. [35:50] >> 11 months ago, Zach, you spent the whole [35:52] 11 months thinking you could vibe. [35:54] blaming nothing for his positioning. [35:58] >> We have a cool uh comment here uh from [36:01] uh Nick. Um he says maybe it would help [36:05] to hear if or how thoughts about [36:07] positioning impact product development [36:09] or is positioning really strictly on [36:11] marketing or go to market concerns? I I [36:13] mean I feel like we touched on this a [36:15] little bit both in terms of like how we [36:18] had to both Nathan and Zach have had to [36:21] go back to their positioning um and how [36:23] that is uh impacted their product [36:26] directly. One of my favorite examples [36:29] ever was uh was Pippen Williamson with [36:32] Easy Digital Downloads forever ago. He [36:34] had this great way always of like really [36:37] synthesizing [36:38] um keen marketing insight down to like [36:41] simple examples. um he was just really [36:44] good at that. And one thing he he he [36:46] said all the time was like easy digital [36:48] downloads is about downloading digital [36:52] products. He was like I can't make it [36:54] more simple than that. Uh we still have [36:57] people to this day, this was years ago, [36:59] but he was said we still have customers [37:00] to this day asking us to implement a [37:03] shipping add-on. [37:06] And he was like I'm never going to do [37:08] that. That is not how we have positioned [37:10] our product. And that was how he he [37:12] talked about it all the time was was if [37:15] I do that I kind of violate my my [37:18] positioning of my of what my product is [37:20] all about. Um and and it's not that it [37:24] it's not that it impacted what he should [37:26] build, but it definitely impacted what [37:29] he should not build. And I think that [37:31] that clarity and that kind of like um [37:34] ability to say no to certain feature [37:36] sets was really really important and [37:38] foundational to easy digital download [37:41] success way back in the day. Personally, [37:43] that's I don't know does do either of [37:45] you resonate with that or have a good [37:47] example. I uh recently we have migrated [37:51] our issue tracking from GitHub to linear [37:54] uh in part because we wanted to have [37:56] more functionality such as uh the [37:59] concept of initiatives. In linear you [38:02] can set an initiative and associate [38:05] tickets from across different uh repos [38:08] to address an initiative. You can also [38:10] have an initiative be like um kind of a [38:13] product market fit question like for [38:16] have have an ideal customer profile and [38:19] say that this initiative is associated [38:21] with them. So like we we deal with a lot [38:24] of educational uh users a lot of [38:26] government users. So we could create in [38:30] linear a government profile, education [38:32] profile and say that this poll request [38:34] or this product like uh feature request [38:37] is directly associated with benefiting [38:39] them so that we can better align our [38:41] initiatives around making more money, [38:44] reducing number of bugs, increasing uh [38:47] decreasing time for onboarding and uh [38:50] say that this is for this customer [38:52] specifically. Um, and I think that [38:54] aligning um aligning positioning and [38:57] while developing is a is a really good [39:00] thing. It just matters for us it was a [39:02] matter of having the right tools and [39:03] linear I think we're on the right path [39:04] there. [39:04] >> That's cool. [39:05] >> How about you Nathan? [39:06] >> Yeah, I think I I was thinking of the [39:08] example of the founder that you talked [39:09] to maybe could have been more tactful [39:11] but you know in in a positive spin is [39:14] like [39:15] your app. I'm not gonna build an API. [39:17] I'm not going to build all these things. [39:19] and he's like, "This this is, you know, [39:21] our position is part of who it's for. [39:24] It's not for the technical people that [39:25] want to do it themselves. I'm for this [39:27] other person." Um, and within my [39:30] products, like with simply schedule [39:32] appointments, like we've had that [39:34] repeated conversation because there's [39:36] always that pull from customers and your [39:38] power users. And we've had to decide, [39:41] you know, simply schedule appointments [39:43] is for simply scheduling appointments. [39:45] It's not for uh it's not for tour, you [39:48] know, VIP ticket selling and oh, I have [39:51] 17 tickets of this and it has to be [39:52] three adults and two kids and packages [39:55] and all of these things. Like there are [39:57] other tools that are better for that. [39:58] Like if you have like one of our things [40:00] is defining what an appointment is. [40:02] There's a lot of people who look at like [40:03] the events calendar and simply schedule [40:06] appointments and I think we're [40:07] competitors and like those are [40:08] completely opposite to solve. Like if [40:12] the person running the website decides [40:14] the date and time, it's an event and [40:17] there's tickets and there's inventory [40:18] and there's all that. If the person [40:20] visiting the website is setting the date [40:22] and time, it's an appointment and that's [40:24] what we do. Um, so I think there's [40:27] there's elements like that. And all [40:29] along the way, like we decided we're not [40:31] going to be the enterprise scheduling [40:33] tool if you have 80 employees and you're [40:36] putting their shift schedule and their [40:38] Monday through Friday and their days off [40:40] and we're not doing all of that. [40:42] >> Yeah. [40:42] >> Though, pay attention to those requests. [40:45] Um because those are opportunities for [40:48] partnerships. Uh those are opportunities [40:50] for acquisitions like either you [40:52] acquiring another product that does what [40:55] they're requesting or they could be [40:56] acquiring you. Um th that is valuable [40:59] feedback. Uh but it's also valuable [41:02] feedback that you're not positioning [41:03] yourself hard enough uh to to say that [41:06] you don't do what they're requesting. [41:08] >> Yeah. And we've done that with [41:09] integrations like integrate with an [41:11] events tool, not going to build it [41:13] ourselves into this cra it into this [41:15] product. And the same thing with form [41:17] building. We have a very simple form [41:19] where you can say here's their name, [41:21] phone number, what you can ask them [41:22] three questions. But if you want to do [41:24] more than that, we have a Gravity Forms [41:26] integration. So if you want three pages [41:28] and conditional logic and you want the [41:30] appointment to be step three only if [41:31] they have a say, you know, a budget of [41:33] this level, right? Then we just show up [41:35] as a field in Gravity Forms. And so [41:38] that's a great integration, but we're [41:39] not going to build a a form builder into [41:42] our plug-in, [41:43] >> right? [41:46] >> We have some great questions coming in [41:47] from Nick again. Um, one of them is [41:50] they're gonna think they can vibe code [41:51] it 100%. another part of how the value [41:54] ad shifts in the next year. The villain [41:56] might be changing from spreadsheets to [41:58] vibecoded apps. [42:00] >> For sure it will. Yeah. [42:01] >> And I think that that's something that [42:03] we as a WordPress industry are all going [42:06] to be needing to pivot to to talk about [42:09] how use our product don't use vibe coded [42:12] apps for this reason. [42:15] >> 100%. [42:18] >> Agreed. [42:19] >> He's got another uh another good comment [42:21] here. um or question actually from Nick. [42:24] Uh looking for some examples, how has [42:28] understanding the positioning of your [42:30] existing product helped you know how to [42:32] build it further? Like what features to [42:34] say yes to, not just say no to? [42:37] >> We have some other WP product topic [42:39] episodes that are about that. And I [42:41] think that uh positioning this episode [42:44] uh we should not go into that too much. [42:48] But there is a fe we have feature [42:50] requests episode that talks about like [42:52] when how to address feature requests and [42:54] how to know whether feature requests are [42:56] um are going to be a benefit to your [42:59] product or a hindrance to long-term [43:01] sustainability for it. [43:02] >> There is part of this though like [43:04] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I just I I just I [43:05] thought I was making [43:07] >> I think going into customer feedback it [43:09] would be like a deviation from the topic [43:11] but at the positioning level for example [43:14] I think a lot of folks are launching [43:16] their product from day one as like an [43:19] MVP per perhaps um and they don't have [43:24] all the features um right out of the [43:25] gate um and in that case I think their [43:28] positioning is going to help them to [43:30] navigate what should be on the road map [43:32] in the future Um our biggest example I [43:35] give when we launched we did not launch [43:37] with uh recurring uh donations uh [43:40] because we were heavily borrowing from a [43:44] lot of the gateway uh payment gateway [43:47] logic of easy digital downloads who also [43:49] didn't have recurring at the time. Um [43:53] and so um the but we but we had to have [43:56] it on our roadmap and then what happened [43:59] like you're saying Zach is that [44:00] immediately after we launched we got [44:02] some adoption and people like the [44:04] product and everything but they're like [44:05] oh hey but what about recurring [44:07] donations and we're like yes yes yes [44:09] we're it's on the road map. We were [44:11] definitely like saying 100% we're going [44:13] to say yes to this. Another way that it [44:15] impacted it down the line was when we [44:17] launched um crypto donations was not a [44:22] thing. It was it was not a thing. People [44:24] did not do that when we launched GiveWP. [44:26] But within the first four years after [44:29] launching, crypto donations became a big [44:31] thing. But because we knew exactly how [44:34] we wanted to support our nonprofit [44:36] organizations, um whether or not to [44:39] support crypto donations was like an was [44:42] a no-brainer. It was like, "Yes, of [44:44] course, we're going to do that as well." [44:46] Um, as soon as there was a integration [44:48] partner that would handle it well. [44:50] >> Lots of people leaving Dogecoin in their [44:52] wills. [44:53] >> Yeah. which I have to say like that it's [44:57] a weird tidbit, but like um the average [45:01] uh US dollar amount of a of a crypto [45:05] donation uh compared to a normal dollar [45:08] amount of donations, $10,000 [45:11] typically when it's crypto. If [45:13] somebody's donating crypto, it's usually [45:15] not a small amount. That's that's that's [45:18] one crazy little tidbit, but [45:20] >> Okay, [45:21] >> that's a deviation for sure. [45:22] >> Well, maybe not. I need to add some [45:26] Bitcoin payment options for Gravity Kit. [45:31] >> Nice. Well, let's uh wrap it up. We are [45:34] getting close to uh top of the hour and [45:36] uh every single episode we um conclude [45:40] by giving our best advice. Um and think [45:44] of it like uh you know elevator [45:47] conversation real quick, elevator pitch. [45:49] Um, somebody's like, "Nathan, I got to [45:52] figure out my positioning. What am I [45:54] going to do?" You got three sentences to [45:56] give them your best advice. Nathan, what [45:58] is it? [45:59] >> Uh, I guess I would focus on clarity and [46:02] not like worry about mentioning [46:04] competitors or anything. I think the [46:06] best thing for simply schedule [46:07] appointments has been to sayly, but in [46:10] WordPress, like the exact target [46:14] customer that we're positioned for wants [46:16] their solution in WordPress. So like [46:18] mentioning Calendarly isn't a bad thing. [46:20] Um and even if it was, it's such a [46:23] shortcut because people it's so [46:24] ubiquitous that people understand it. I [46:26] think that's the right move. [46:29] Just trying to get as much clarity as [46:31] you can in as few words as possible. [46:33] >> Absolutely love it. Zach, what about [46:35] you? [46:36] >> Uh I recommend a sto uh this book, [46:39] Building a Story Brand. It helps guide [46:42] you through thinking about things in [46:44] your business through your customer's [46:46] eyes and understanding what their [46:48] objections are and how you would target [46:50] uh addressing those objections. That [46:52] also is is it's a lot of work coming up [46:55] with positioning and like who you are, [46:57] what you build, why you build it, who [46:59] it's for, what you price it, who are [47:01] your competitors. Having a framework is [47:03] really helpful. So even if even if it's [47:05] not this book, have buy a book, download [47:08] some course, I don't care. Have a [47:09] framework to help you think through this [47:11] because it is complicated stuff. [47:13] >> Love it. That's a great recommendation. [47:16] >> How about that? [47:17] >> Yeah, for me, um, I got sidetracked. I [47:20] had it. What was my best advice? Zach [47:23] pulled me away with that great [47:24] recommendation. I was like, I need to [47:25] read Story Brand again. Um, hold on. [47:28] Hold on. I got it. I got it. I got it. [47:29] Um, [47:32] oh, focus on outcomes. Uh, focus on [47:34] outcomes. Um, what position yourself [47:39] around the success you're looking for in [47:41] your customer. Um, and I think that will [47:45] pave everything that you need to pave in [47:47] one way or another. Uh, similar, it's [47:49] similar to what Nathan was saying. It's [47:51] not about like this tool, but in this [47:53] context or this uh, not like this [47:57] competitor, but like this thing. um [47:59] focus the the way you position yourself [48:01] around the success that you want to see [48:04] in your ideal customer [48:06] >> and all you got to do is buy that [48:08] product and your life is going to get [48:10] easier. [48:11] >> Yeah. Yeah. What one thing that we [48:14] didn't really cover but Matt just [48:16] brought up for me is that I think there [48:18] is one kind of positioning that's very [48:19] vertical which I think give like you [48:22] know your customer they're trying [48:24] nonprofit they're trying to raise [48:25] donations and so you really can position [48:28] much more on success and outcomes and I [48:30] think there's other tools like Zach's [48:32] gravity kit right that's more utility [48:33] and more horizontal across industries [48:36] like it could be any industry in the [48:38] world and so you have to really position [48:40] around that activity around the th the [48:43] job that it does that's at a small level [48:47] and the same thing for us with blink [48:49] metrics custom reporting dashboards like [48:52] we're usually working with like a [48:53] director of operations but you know it [48:55] can be a construction company it can be [48:58] a you know SAS business it can be a [49:00] WordPress plug-in owner it could be [49:01] anybody um and so we really have tried [49:04] to position on that job like that [49:07] activity [49:09] >> um [49:09] >> yeah I think that that's a good point I [49:11] mean There's there are different ways [49:14] that we serve customers in different um [49:16] in different ways. Um but there is still [49:19] that job to be done. What I like what [49:20] you were circling in on there and I [49:22] think maybe that's a more refined way to [49:25] say what I was trying to say is like [49:26] maybe not the the success of that [49:28] customer but like the outcome of the job [49:31] to be done in that circumstance because [49:32] that applies to both circumstances. [49:35] >> Yeah, [49:36] >> for sure. Um [49:37] >> that's a good one. Refinement. [49:41] Cool. Cool. Well, this was great. Um, [49:43] thanks so much, Nathan. Uh, where can [49:46] folks find you online? [49:48] >> Blinkmetrics.com or nsquare.io will also [49:51] have the WordPress plugins and [49:53] everything else we do. [49:54] >> Love it. [49:56] >> Well, everybody, if you're enjoying [49:57] these shows, do us a favor and hit that [50:00] subscribe button in YouTube. We're [50:01] trying to get to 10,000 subscribers, so [50:04] please help us reach that goal. Uh, it's [50:06] the most free and most easy way you can [50:09] support our work. So, uh, please [50:12] subscribe. Special thanks again to [50:14] Freenius and, uh, thank you to Freemas [50:17] for their support. [50:18] >> Yeah. And next week we are on Hiatus and [50:23] hopefully you are too. Happy holidays to [50:25] everybody. Um, watch our blog for [50:28] announcements for our next season which [50:30] is going to kick off in January. Uh [50:34] we're going to have a full six week [50:36] schedule of some awesome speakers uh [50:38] which are yet to be determined. So if [50:40] you want to be on product talk um hit us [50:44] up online and um if you have any great [50:46] feature requests for us in terms of [50:49] topics uh we are listening um and we are [50:52] positioning ourselves around you. So see [50:55] what I did there? Pun intended. Um [50:59] thanks so much everybody. We'll see you [51:01] next time. [51:02] >> Thank you. Happy new year.