All The Tips - Season 17 - CourtneyR.dev's 2nd Brain

All The Tips - Season 17 🔗 **Source:** [All The Tips - Season 17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Kxacf4BwBU) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [sketchnoting, visual-thinking, creative-practice] > author: Mike Rohde > source: Sketchnote Army Podcast > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Kxacf4BwBU > date created: 2024-12-19 10:30 > > # 🏷️ Title: All The Tips - Season 17 >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Start experimenting with visual thinking techniques — practice regularly with small sketchbook #practice - [H2] Build community connections for feedback and collaboration — seek out visual thinking groups #community - [H3] Simplify drawings to focus on speed and clarity over perfection — test "photograph rule" #technique ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [Sketchnote Army Podcast](https://sketchnotearmy.com) - [The Sketchnote Handbook](https://peachpit.com) ## 📝 Summary - **What happened**: Season 17 compilation of practical tips from visual thinking experts and graphic recorders - **Why it matters**: Consolidates wisdom from practitioners to help newcomers overcome barriers and improve skills - **Key stakeholders**: Aspiring sketch noters, graphic recorders, visual thinkers, creative professionals - **Risks and tradeoffs**: Perfectionism vs. progress, technical skill vs. practical application - **Bottom line**: Start where you are, focus on practice over perfection, and build supportive community connections ## 📖 Main Content This episode compiles actionable advice from multiple visual thinking practitioners spanning graphic recording, sketch noting, and creative problem-solving. The core message emphasizes starting immediately despite imperfections, simplifying complex drawings to maintain speed, and treating each session as an experiment rather than a performance. Experts consistently advocate for community building, regular practice, and physical awareness in visual work. The episode represents nearly 10 years of podcast wisdom distilled into practical guidance for practitioners at any level. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Kxacf4BwBU?t=0) — [H1] Introduction and Milestone Celebration - Key idea: Episode 186 marks nearly 10 years of podcast history - Evidence: "185 episodes over 17 seasons and almost 10 years of podcast" #### ⏱️ [02:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Kxacf4BwBU?t=135) — [H2] Dan Roam on Practical vs Aspirational Balance - Key idea: Success requires balancing practical needs with creative dreams - Evidence: "You got to eat and you got to dream... weave them together into something that will get someone to pay you a dollar" #### ⏱️ [04:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Kxacf4BwBU?t=270) — [H2] Technology Adaptation Lessons - Key idea: Early adopters of digital tools gained competitive advantages - Evidence: "If you didn't make the move to digital, you were out of a job within a couple of years" #### ⏱️ [07:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Kxacf4BwBU?t=465) — [H1] Katcha Balakina's Core Confidence Message - Key idea: Stop overthinking - you're already good enough to start - Evidence: "You are good enough. You're good enough to go out there. You're good enough to reach the client you want to reach" #### ⏱️ [09:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Kxacf4BwBU?t=560) — [H2] Pro Bono Practice Strategy - Key idea: Start with free work to build confidence and portfolio - Evidence: "I started reaching out to local libraries, pro bono events, volunteering opportunities just to do what I want to do for real" #### ⏱️ [11:10](https://www.YouTube.com/watch?v=2Kxacf4BwBU?t=670) — [H2] Simplification Over Perfection - Key idea: Minimal drawings communicate effectively without technical precision - Evidence: "People recognize Mona Lisa if it's just three lines... so much we can translate through simple images" #### ⏱️ [13:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Kxacf4BwBU?t=795) — [H2] The Photograph Rule for Visual Innovation - Key idea: If your drawing could be a photograph, push harder for creativity - Evidence: "If your drawing can be a photograph, you're not pushing hard enough" #### ⏱️ [15:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Kxacf4BwBU?t=930) — [H3] Reframing Failure as Learning - Key idea: People rarely notice visual "mistakes" that creators obsess over - Evidence: "I've never had anyone walk to me and say 'this drawing is not good'" #### ⏱️ [18:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Kxacf4BwBU?t=1080) — [H1] Desant Jane's Curiosity and Tools Framework - Key idea: Carry small sketchbook and activate curiosity as observation practice - Evidence: "I can feel it in my pocket... I'm in the business of observing and looking for things that are interesting" #### ⏱️ [20:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Kxacf4BwBU?t=1245) — [H2] Eliminating Hesitation Through Quick Starts - Key idea: Close the gap between wanting to draw and starting to draw - Evidence: "Those second thoughts vanish the moment that I touch pen to paper" #### ⏱️ [22:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Kxacf4BwBU?t=1350) — [H2] Cara Holland on Purpose-Driven Work - Key idea: Be clear on what you're trying to achieve before choosing methods - Evidence: "Be clear on what it is you're trying to achieve... don't over produce or over complicate" #### ⏱️ [25:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Kxacf4BwBU?t=1515) — [H2] Ted Shackman's Mind Atlas Technique - Key idea: Create 3D visual models in familiar spaces to enhance memory and pattern recognition - Evidence: "You snap to the best pattern among all the things... incredibly unintuitive and wonderful connections" #### ⏱️ [31:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Kxacf4BwBU?t=1880) — [H2] Lindsay Wilson on Community and Physical Practice - Key idea: Seek feedback actively and pay attention to your body during visual work - Evidence: "What we are doing is physical... understanding and paying attention to your body" #### ⏱️ [34:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Kxacf4BwBU?t=2050) — [H2] Andrew Park's Visual German Technique - Key idea: Combine unrelated visual concepts to spark creative problem-solving - Evidence: "Put one thing near another and watch the chemical reaction" #### ⏱️ [36:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Kxacf4BwBU?t=2205) — [H3] Breaking Through Procrastination - Key idea: Any mark on paper defeats procrastination psychology - Evidence: "Procrastination can only be beat by doing something... just break the seal of the paper" ## 📚 References - [Sketchnote Army Podcast Archives](https://sketchnotearmy.com) - [The Sketchnote Handbook by Mike Rohde](https://peachpit.com) - [Airship Sketchbook Store](https://airship.store) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Visual thinking practitioners emphasize starting immediately with whatever skills you have rather than waiting for perfect technique - Building community connections provides essential feedback, collaboration opportunities, and mutual support for creative growth - Simplifying drawings to focus on speed and clear communication produces better results than pursuing technical perfection ## 📰 Newsletter **Visual Thinking Wisdom: Season 17's Best Practices** This compilation episode delivers nearly a decade of practical advice from visual thinking experts. Whether you're starting your sketch noting journey or refining graphic recording skills, these insights emphasize action over perfectionism. **Key takeaways**: Start where you are, simplify your approach, and build supportive communities. The most successful practitioners treat each session as an experiment, focus on clear communication over artistic precision, and actively seek feedback for continuous improvement. **Ready to practice?** Grab a small sketchbook, find a local meetup, and remember - you're already good enough to begin. Resources: [Sketchnote Army](https://sketchnotearmy.com), [Visual Thinking Community](https://visualthinkingcommunity.com), [Practice Exercises](https://learn.wordpress.org/) ## ✅ Action Items #### Community - **Feedback networks**: Create peer review systems for visual work improvement - **Practice groups**: Organize regular sketch note sessions and collaborative projects - **Mentorship**: Connect experienced practitioners with newcomers for guidance #### WordPress - **Documentation**: Create visual guides for complex WordPress concepts and processes - **Training**: Develop sketch noting workshops for WordCamp and meetup organizers - **Community**: Support visual learners in WordPress education with graphic facilitation ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Regular sketch noting practice with immediate feedback accelerates skill development more than solitary study - Simplifying visual elements while maintaining clear communication produces more effective graphic recording than detailed illustration - Pro bono practice opportunities provide essential confidence-building experiences for visual thinking beginners - Physical awareness and body positioning significantly impact visual work quality and practitioner sustainability ### 📊 Methodology - **Practice tracking**: Document skill progression through regular sketch note portfolios - **Community impact studies**: Measure collaboration benefits in visual thinking groups - **Technique comparison**: Test simplified vs. detailed approaches in real-world recording sessions ### ❓ Questions - How does physical positioning affect creative flow and visual quality in extended sessions? - What community structures most effectively support visual thinking skill development? - Can the "photograph rule" be quantified as a reliable creativity enhancement technique? ### 🔮 Future Research - Long-term impact of consistent visual thinking practice on problem-solving abilities - Cross-cultural applications of visual German and mind atlas techniques - Integration of digital tools while maintaining physical practice benefits ### 💡 Implications - **Practice**: Immediate start with imperfect skills beats delayed perfect preparation - **Education**: Visual learning techniques can enhance traditional instructional approaches - **Community**: Peer feedback systems accelerate individual and collective skill development - **Technology**: Digital tools should enhance rather than replace fundamental visual thinking skills ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level 8 #### 👀 Visual learners - **Present**: Multiple visual metaphors, drawing examples, technique demonstrations - **Improve**: Step-by-step visual guides for each technique mentioned #### 🔊 Aural learners - **Present**: Audio format with expert voices sharing personal experiences - **Improve**: Add brief audio summaries of key techniques #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - **Present**: Clear definitions, analogies like "visual German," practical examples - **Improve**: Glossary of visual thinking terminology and storytelling connections #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - **Present**: Hands-on technique descriptions, physical practice emphasis - **Improve**: Interactive exercises and movement-based learning activities #### 🧠 Logical learners - **Present**: Structured progression from basic to advanced techniques - **Improve**: Decision trees for choosing appropriate visual methods #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - **Present**: Community emphasis, collaboration strategies, peer feedback - **Improve**: Structured group exercises and partner practice systems #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - **Present**: Individual practice recommendations, personal reflection prompts - **Improve**: Self-assessment tools and independent study guides #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - **Present**: Organic skill development concepts, natural progression examples - **Improve**: Environmental observation exercises and nature-based metaphors ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - **Present**: Clear heading structure, descriptive content organization - **Improve**: Alt text for visual technique descriptions, audio descriptions #### Keyboard navigation - **Present**: Standard podcast controls, linear content flow - **Improve**: Timestamped navigation, skip-to-section functionality #### Contrast and readability - **Present**: Audio-first format reduces visual barriers - **Improve**: High contrast transcripts, adjustable text sizing #### Text resizing and reflow - **Present**: Responsive text formatting in transcripts - **Improve**: Prevent content clipping, support reading preferences #### Media and captions - **Present**: Full transcript available for audio content - **Improve**: Enhanced captions with speaker identification, technique emphasis ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - **Present**: Multiple international perspectives from diverse practitioners - **Improve**: More global visual thinking traditions, translation resources #### Inclusive language - **Present**: Encouraging tone, non-technical explanations - **Improve**: Gender-neutral examples, accessible terminology #### Neurodiversity support - **Present**: Multiple learning approaches, structured content organization - **Improve**: Sensory considerations, processing time acknowledgment #### Representation - **Present**: Diverse practitioner backgrounds, varied career paths - **Improve**: More varied demographic representation in guest selection ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - **Deductive strength**: Clear progression from principles to practical application throughout - **Inductive strength**: Multiple expert experiences supporting general principles - **Causal reasoning**: Experience-based causation between practice and skill development - **Analogical strength**: Effective use of metaphors like "visual German" and mind palace #### Fallacies - **Appeal to authority**: Some reliance on expert status without evidence validation - **Survivorship bias**: Focus on successful practitioners without addressing failures #### Tone of voice - **Overall tone**: Encouraging and supportive, emphasizing growth mindset and experimentation ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - **Deny**: No denial patterns present in content - **Attack**: No attacks on critics or alternative approaches - **Reverse victim/offender**: Not applicable to this educational content - **Emotional cues**: Consistently supportive and encouraging tone throughout ## 🎯 Conclusion This compilation demonstrates that successful visual thinking stems from consistent practice, supportive community engagement, and willingness to experiment over perfectionism. The practical advice from diverse experts creates a roadmap for anyone beginning or advancing their visual thinking journey, emphasizing that starting immediately with available skills produces better outcomes than waiting for ideal conditions. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad ### [H1] Visual thinking requires balanced practical application > [!quote] All The Tips - Season 17 by Mike Rohde via Sketchnote Army Podcast. Published 2024. Accessed 2024-12-19. > "You got to eat and you got to dream... weave them together into something that will get someone to pay you." Successful creative careers combine practical income needs with aspirational creative goals. [view highlight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Kxacf4BwBU#H1) #xref #articleseed ID:rw_visual_balance ### [H2] Simplification enhances communication effectiveness over technical precision > [!quote] All --- ## Full Transcript [00:03] You're listening to the Sketchnote Army [00:05] podcast. I'm your host, Mike Roody, the [00:07] author of the Sketchnote Handbook and [00:09] the Sketchnote Workbook. And this is the [00:11] podcast where I chat with sketch noters [00:13] and visual thinkers and try to [00:15] understand what makes them tick. [00:20] Hey, are you looking for the ideal [00:22] sketchbook for your sketch noting [00:24] practice? The Sketchnote Idea Book is [00:27] the sketchbook designed for sketch [00:29] noters. Equipped with no bleed, no [00:31] showthrough paper, you can take almost [00:33] any marker or pen you can throw at it. [00:36] Get 10% off with code army at [00:38] airship.store. [00:44] Hey, it's Mike Brody here with season [00:47] 17's all the tips episode. one of my [00:50] favorite episodes of the season where we [00:53] gather all the tips from our amazing [00:55] guests. We combine them together and put [00:57] some inspiring music behind them. I [01:00] think this is one of my favorite [01:02] episodes because you just get all this [01:05] wisdom packed into one episode and it's [01:08] encouraging and inspiring and you know [01:10] sometimes when you need a little pickme [01:11] up is the perfect episode to fire up and [01:14] listen to. And by the way, we have um I [01:17] think five or six, maybe more um all the [01:20] tips episodes going back in the season. [01:23] So if you like this episode, go back in [01:25] the in the uh Sketchnote Army podcast [01:28] archives and find these all the tips [01:29] episodes and listen to them. There's [01:31] lots of wisdom in these episodes. [01:34] So amazingly enough, I was looking at [01:36] the list of podcasts uh the other day [01:39] and noticed that we are at 185 episodes. [01:43] this one being number 186 and that's [01:46] over a span of 17 seasons and almost 10 [01:51] years of podcast. That's a great [01:53] milestone. I feel really confident and [01:56] excited about producing that body of [01:58] work for you. Uh all this started back [02:00] in 2016 with my friend Maro Tacelli. We [02:03] had just purchased our iPad Pros and [02:05] pencils. We were so excited that we [02:08] couldn't wait to talk to each other and [02:09] recorded that discussion. You can still [02:12] find that as episode one if you want to [02:13] go back and hear history. The quality of [02:15] the audio is not perfect, but um you can [02:17] definitely hear the excitement in our [02:19] voices. And from that, it just made [02:22] sense to start having interviews with [02:23] interesting people that were friends of [02:25] mine because I was always curious about [02:28] how people came to this visual thinking [02:30] space from unusual places and uh in [02:34] strange ways because I think it's um [02:37] encouraging. It encourages me because I [02:40] can see that people come from all over [02:42] the place and get into this space and it [02:46] there's no um one way that seems to be [02:48] consistent. It's from all over the place [02:50] and I really like that about sketch [02:52] noting and visual thinking is that [02:54] people can come from anywhere and start [02:56] applying this in their work and see [02:58] value in doing it. So that's really [03:00] encouraging. Um, and you know, of [03:03] course, I'm thankful for every one of [03:05] the guests from Stephen season 17. I'm [03:08] thankful for every guest on the podcast. [03:10] We've had many really amazing people, a [03:13] few a couple of times. So, thank you to [03:16] anyone who's listening who was also a [03:18] guest on the show. And then of course to [03:20] the listeners, you, the people that are [03:22] listening to this right now, thank you [03:24] so much for making time for this. You [03:25] know, our lives are busy and finding [03:28] time to listen to wisdom and people's [03:31] experiences is always uh encouraging, [03:34] but it's not always easy to find the [03:36] time to do it. So, I appreciate you make [03:37] time in your life to listen to these [03:40] episodes. Um, and so that's that's [03:43] really exciting for me. And I would say [03:45] if there's a way that you want to say [03:46] thank you, um, post feedback. go to the [03:49] place where you listen to your podcasts, [03:52] whether that's Apple or Spotify or [03:54] Amazon or YouTube, u and rate the [03:56] podcast. And the reason for that is um [03:59] even more for other people. So when uh [04:02] we rate the podcast and it gives good [04:04] ratings, uh it starts to bubble up for [04:06] other people that are interested in [04:07] visual thinking and it lets them [04:09] discover the resource that we're [04:11] creating here for them. So, if that [04:13] would be a great thing you could do for [04:15] me, uh, and then also spread the podcast [04:17] for others who are likely to to love [04:20] listening to it. So, I'm excited for [04:25] season 18 and 2026. I don't know who the [04:28] guests are going to be yet. That's uh [04:30] for me to plan over the over the holiday [04:32] break and into early 2026 and get that [04:35] lined up for you. So, that's very [04:37] exciting. And so it's another episode in [04:40] the can number 186. And I hope that if [04:43] you're listening, you have a great [04:45] holiday season wherever you are. And [04:48] we'll talk to you again next year. Talk [04:50] to you soon. [04:56] Dan Rome. [04:58] >> I have a friend who's a school teacher [04:59] who teaches 10th grade and he asked me [05:01] to come online and we do a virtual [05:03] session with his 10th graders and we [05:05] were kind and and they had similar [05:06] questions cuz hey, you're a published [05:08] author. You know, you've you managed to [05:11] have created a career of things that you [05:13] seem to have been passionate about your [05:14] whole life. How in the hell do you make [05:16] that happen? Yeah. [05:18] >> And you know the 10th graders, I'm like, [05:19] "Kids, you know, I wish I could tell [05:21] you, but the the fact is you got to [05:23] think between [05:26] what is a [05:29] kind of [05:31] applicable practical part of what you [05:34] want to do because you are going to have [05:36] to eat." Like there's that's true. There [05:39] is an applied practical element to life. [05:41] You you have to put Cheerios on the [05:43] table every single day. you. And so in [05:45] order to do that, you've got to make [05:46] some money. So you have to have some [05:48] practical side. But on the other side, [05:50] let's not forget the aspirational side [05:52] because if you're just eating breakfast [05:54] and you're not dreaming, why are you [05:55] even living? So you've got to be able to [05:58] do the practical and the aspirational. [06:01] So you got to eat and you got to dream. [06:03] And you're lucky. You're lucky as heck [06:06] if by building upon the practical and [06:09] loving your creative side, your dreaming [06:11] side, you can weave them together into [06:12] something that will get someone to pay [06:14] you a dollar to do that. Um, and kind of [06:17] explaining it and again, same thing [06:20] Mike, you're saying is it only makes [06:21] sense looking backwards. And I want to [06:23] something you were starting to ask me, [06:24] how did my parents think about this sort [06:26] of weird mishmash education? Well, they [06:28] were delightful. They they by that point [06:30] maybe it was a little bit of a different [06:31] era but by the time I left home and went [06:33] to college like you're out of the house [06:36] you know parents are like you're you've [06:38] got agency now you're self-propelled [06:41] godspeed good luck we're here if you [06:42] need us but you know we're moving and [06:45] not leaving the address behind so they [06:47] were just delighted by the fact that I [06:48] was able to earn money doing graphic [06:50] design and then I'll tell you though and [06:53] this is going to be relevant to where [06:55] this conversation right now might take [06:57] us The really critical moment when I was [07:00] working for that newspaper doing that [07:01] advertising design perhaps there were [07:03] two one was learning to ask people I can [07:06] draw you the picture but to what end [07:10] what to what purpose is your ad if I [07:12] know what you're trying to achieve I can [07:14] make a whole lot better creative [07:16] advertisement so one was learning to ask [07:18] good questions and listen then convert [07:20] that into a visual or a story the second [07:22] one is just by virtue of luck being in [07:24] the right place at the right time the [07:26] newspaper I was working with was one of [07:28] the first in San Francisco which was [07:30] kind of on the bleeding edge at that [07:31] time given proximity to Silicon Valley [07:34] to move to digital layout tools. So this [07:36] was in the late 1980s and so at that [07:39] newspaper we got the first Mac, we had [07:42] the first uh Adobe Page Maker, we had [07:45] Freehand. These are tools that to folks [07:47] today are the ancestors, the legacy to [07:51] our what Adobe is now. Adobe barely even [07:53] existed at that time. There were other [07:55] companies. So the trick there, why I [07:57] think that's important is not only are [08:00] you learning to be creative and tell a [08:03] visual story using tools analog or [08:08] traditional, but now you're meeting at [08:10] this intersection of this arrival of new [08:12] technology that is scary as heck and [08:17] seems to put a lot of your skills out of [08:20] work. Because if page maker is going to [08:23] set up literally the page for me and run [08:26] the right line for my text and do the [08:29] suddenly gives me options for you know [08:31] in the early days 75 different fonts. [08:35] >> Mhm. Well, a week before I was running [08:38] that through a liner type machine and [08:39] this is old, you know, old man telling [08:41] stories that don't matter. But that was [08:44] a trade. Like you had to know how to [08:46] spec things by eye. And now the [08:47] computer's doing it for you. And it's [08:48] like, well, should I? It's putting me [08:50] out of work, [08:51] >> but it is enabling me to focus on the [08:54] parts of layout that were compelling [08:57] anyway. [08:58] >> Um, so we're going to get to that cuz [09:00] this is where I think we're at another [09:01] inflection point right now. [09:02] >> I think so, too. Yeah, it's a great [09:03] discussion [09:04] >> and and if I might share one more story, [09:06] this was learning and it's going to be [09:08] relevant for today is I was working at a [09:11] small scrappy newspaper here in San [09:12] Francisco and at that time the San [09:14] Francisco Chronicle was the big daily [09:17] newspaper, former Hurst newspaper, you [09:19] know, William Randph Hurst, all the [09:21] stories. [09:21] >> Uh, big money, long history. Uh, and it [09:26] was really interesting and I don't know [09:28] how this is going to land with people, [09:30] but we went over to visit the Chronicle [09:32] production room and they were a union [09:34] shop. [09:35] >> And it was really fascinating cuz we [09:37] came in to say these are some of the [09:38] digital tools we're bringing to bear and [09:40] they were highly resistant because [09:43] looking at it, if we move to those [09:45] digital tools, a lot of our journeymen [09:46] production people are going to be out of [09:48] work. [09:49] >> Yeah. [09:49] >> Well, I have no particular opinion about [09:51] that. I know what I'm going to do. I'm [09:53] not part of a union. I'm not part of a [09:55] labor force to the degree that I know, [09:57] but I'm going to go ahead and use these [09:58] tools because they amp up what I do and [09:59] we're in a scrappy little shop da da da. [10:02] And you know, it's kind of interesting [10:03] how that played out because none of [10:05] those people, if you didn't make the [10:06] move to digital, you were out of a job. [10:09] >> Yeah. [10:09] >> Within a couple of years, it was done. [10:11] And then a decade later, I found myself [10:14] in New York working for a very fancy uh [10:17] design firm right at the beginning of [10:20] the internet boom, 1997, 1998. And I was [10:24] working for a very famous uh former [10:26] magazine designer who'd been smart [10:27] enough, a guy named Roger Black who had [10:30] >> who had been the designer of Time [10:32] magazine, Newsweek magazine, Smart [10:34] Magazine, Vanity Fair. I mean, he had [10:36] been he was the original art director [10:38] for Rolling Stone magazine under Yan Wer [10:40] back in the in the glory days for them [10:42] of the '60s. Suffice it to say, Roger [10:44] was very smart. and he's like, "Uh, [10:46] there's this thing called the internet [10:48] and all these publications are coming to [10:49] our design studio and they're saying, [10:51] can you help us make a website out of [10:54] our magazine?" And he's like, "Let's do [10:56] that." So again, by the luck of being in [10:59] the right place at the right time. [11:00] Technology [11:02] revolution one digital or rather analog [11:05] paste up to digital paste up. Been [11:07] there, learned a lot. Transition two, [11:10] let's go from print media to online [11:13] media. And so we were there. We were [11:15] designing again the original time.com. [11:17] Uh we were doing ibm.com. We were doing [11:20] we designed the original Barnes & [11:22] Noble.com before even anybody knew what [11:24] Amazon was. And again, forgive me for [11:26] the old man stories, but it's relevant [11:28] in the sense that [11:30] >> once again, how many of those magazine [11:32] design people are even around 10 years [11:35] later? [11:36] >> Yeah. [11:36] >> This is the nature of this beast that we [11:38] have. And you know, we're in we're in [11:41] another inflection point right now, [11:42] which you can imagine where we might [11:44] want to talk about. I'm going to stop [11:45] there, but that's the origin story [11:47] looking back. [11:49] >> Katcha Balakina, [11:52] >> I do have conversations like that uh [11:55] fairly often uh because uh people reach [11:58] out online and they um ask me like what [12:02] to do. They show their work. Um and uh [12:06] uh I what I the first thing I want to [12:08] share uh with everyone and I we already [12:11] uh touched it uh in today's [12:13] conversation. [12:15] I would say stop overthinking. You are [12:19] good enough. You're good enough to to go [12:22] out there. You're good enough to reach [12:24] the client you want to reach. Just like [12:26] uh you and that uh Blackboard, [12:30] >> it doesn't matter if you uh don't have [12:32] like a big portfolio of big clients. Uh [12:36] being courageous, being excited about [12:38] what you do, understanding why you want [12:41] to do that. Uh those are the most [12:43] important things uh you need to have. [12:47] And um it's really sad again when I see [12:51] people who I like their work is [12:54] fantastic. Just u more practice uh [12:57] >> actual like actual practice in the field [13:00] would improve their work and uh they're [13:04] just afraid to get uh in there because [13:06] they think they're not good enough. And [13:08] I want to tell that frustrated person, [13:11] you are good enough. You you're better [13:14] than good enough. So go for it. Email [13:18] whoever email Google uh or another great [13:23] uh tip. It's probably the part of this [13:26] tip uh is I um told you that I started [13:31] doing uh graphic recording in English in [13:34] Estonia [13:35] >> on my own. My first uh gigs were pro [13:39] bono when I would just reach to the [13:43] organizers [13:45] describe what I'm doing and they would [13:47] just uh let me on site like do whatever [13:51] kind of uh attitude [13:53] uh and didn't they didn't expect much [13:56] and uh when they saw the results they [13:58] were uh fascinated even though [14:01] >> five six years ago uh my uh uh graph [14:05] record audience they didn't look as [14:06] clean, nice. Uh, grammar was all over [14:09] the place, you can imagine. [14:11] >> Uh, but people like the result anyway [14:14] and it's how I started getting uh real [14:16] clients from those uh pro bono when I [14:19] would just show up on site and uh tell [14:22] everyone what I'm doing. [14:24] >> And uh that's exactly what I started [14:27] doing when I came to the United States [14:30] as well. Uh because it's hard to [14:33] establish yourself when you know nobody, [14:36] just my husband and his family and their [14:38] dogs. That's that's it. [14:40] >> Uh so I started uh reaching out to like [14:43] local libraries, [14:45] >> uh pro bono events, uh volunteering [14:48] opportunities [14:50] just to do what I want to do for real, [14:54] not in my uh little notebook, uh where [14:58] nobody can see it. And I think that's [15:00] that's a huge part of it. So that would [15:02] be the first tip. Um just go for it. [15:05] You're good enough. [15:07] >> Uh the second tip, uh [15:12] I would say um [15:15] simplify your drawings. You don't need [15:17] uh you don't need perspective. You don't [15:20] need dimensions. You don't need a lot of [15:23] stuff that can get on the way of you [15:26] working fast. [15:28] uh because um I mean and it's not only [15:32] about graphic recording, it's about all [15:34] the illustration fields. Uh it's [15:36] important to know um an anatomy. Uh it's [15:41] important to know um [15:45] where the shade should go, shadow. [15:47] >> Mhm. [15:48] >> But uh you shouldn't overthink uh that [15:52] kind of stuff. Uh we had a great uh [15:54] exercise uh at Scriberia of drawing uh [15:58] redrawing famous paintings [16:01] uh with very minimal amount of lines and [16:04] it turns out people recognize uh Mona if [16:08] it's just [16:09] >> three lines people still see exactly [16:12] >> people um it just uh so much we can uh [16:18] uh translate through uh simple images. [16:22] It's uh fantastic. So I would say if um [16:26] someone is struggling with uh drawing [16:28] realistic people, I uh show uh those [16:32] people examples of my work when I don't [16:34] really count fingers, when I have ears [16:37] sometimes floating in the air, when I [16:40] draw hair as three lines and uh that's [16:43] enough. [16:44] >> People see what they need to see, what I [16:47] want them to see. And um that's that's [16:51] more important than being uh very [16:53] accurate. And again, of course, it's uh [16:55] great to practice and I try to do a lot [16:58] of practice with my drawing, but mostly [17:01] uh how to simplify uh my drawings even [17:04] more because I value drawings on the [17:06] board. I think uh balance is important [17:11] uh text and images. [17:13] >> Mhm. And uh uh and I understand how hard [17:16] it is to think about an image while [17:19] you're drawing life and people are [17:21] talking and you have to store the [17:23] information they're talking about. I [17:25] think how to put it on the board. [17:26] >> Lots going on. [17:27] >> A lot. Yeah. Too too much uh almost. So [17:31] it's important to be able to draw [17:33] something real quick. Quick value of the [17:36] drawing is huge. [17:39] >> So that would be the tip number two. [17:42] Okay. And the tip number three, again, [17:45] something I learned at Scriberia. Uh you [17:47] notice that I'm really thankful to that [17:50] experience even though it was remote and [17:51] I've never been to the studio to the [17:54] office [17:54] >> and I've never met anyone in person from [17:56] Square. It does feel like I know for [17:59] like I worked for them almost for 2 [18:02] years and uh yeah uh never met anyone. [18:07] Uh but I learned a lot and I value that [18:10] uh knowledge and experience. Uh if it's [18:15] this uh tip is more for uh graphic [18:18] reporters, visual thinker thinkers. [18:21] >> If your drawing can be a photograph, [18:24] you're not pushing hard enough. That tip [18:27] helped me uh million times on site. [18:32] Means if you're just uh drawing and [18:34] laptop when someone is talking about [18:36] computer science [18:39] >> yeah pushing move a little harder. [18:42] >> Yeah. Do something do something more [18:43] fun. Um and it's such a simple um simple [18:49] filter like can it be a photograph or [18:51] not? And you can apply that on site [18:54] within seconds to the drawings you're [18:56] about to make. Uh it can work super [18:59] simple. You don't have to again I [19:01] understand the pressure of time and it's [19:04] hard to think about uh deep metaphors [19:06] often [19:07] >> because as you said so much is going on [19:09] but like you can uh draw uh a little arm [19:16] uh [19:17] added to your laptop little face and [19:20] it's already going to do more than just [19:24] uh an image of a a laptop. You can put a [19:27] person on the screen doing something [19:31] um and uh you just can do so much uh to [19:36] uh make your image uh more rich and uh [19:41] try to communicate more through the [19:43] image. So yeah, think of if something [19:46] can be a photograph, [19:48] do something more fun so it's not just [19:51] just a photograph. M and maybe that for [19:54] someone who's new, let's say a new [19:56] graphic recorder [19:57] >> and you're facing that and you want to [19:58] incorporate that, maybe the maybe the [20:00] solution is you're doing a pro bono [20:02] thing, that's where you test this stuff, [20:03] right? Where [20:04] >> absolutely [20:04] >> if you fail, you they're not going to [20:06] take their money back cuz there wasn't [20:07] any. Um yeah, right. First of all, the [20:11] another discovery I made uh while [20:14] working as a graphic reporter. It's so [20:16] hard to fail and people would really [20:20] understand that you fail, [20:22] >> right? [20:22] >> A lot of people say, "Man, I failed [20:24] here. My uh frame is not straight and [20:28] cares." [20:28] >> Absolutely. [20:30] I've done I think over the last uh five [20:34] years of like active five six years of [20:36] active work I don't know 200 gigs [20:40] >> maybe more I've never counted but never [20:44] anyone would walk uh to me and say hey [20:48] this this is not good this drawing is [20:50] not good so people don't know if you uh [20:54] think uh you um did something wrong [20:58] >> so you it be ad uh tip now number four. [21:02] You do you're doing everything right. [21:05] >> Yeah. [21:06] >> And it's also good for mental health [21:08] because I understand the pressure is [21:09] insane. [21:11] >> And if something can take that pressure [21:14] off, I think I do it for my own sake. [21:16] Like otherwise, as I told you from that [21:18] call was then I would just melt of [21:20] stress. [21:21] >> Mhm. [21:22] >> And um Yeah. [21:24] >> Yeah. I lately I've been trying to [21:26] change this mindset with people to think [21:29] of the work you do in sketch noting or [21:31] whatever as an experiment. Every time [21:32] you do an experiment, you're going to [21:34] learn something. You know, scientists [21:36] don't go into the laboratory and it [21:37] fails, they never do the experiment [21:38] again. [21:39] >> Exactly. [21:40] >> That's actually the reason to do it [21:41] again and try something else. Right. And [21:42] >> totally [21:43] >> keep exploring because every time you do [21:45] it, you're learning. But I think it sort [21:47] of changes. I notice in my own self when [21:49] I think of things as experiments and I'm [21:51] playing [21:52] >> Mhm. like it I loosen up and I take more [21:55] chances and have more fun and it feels [21:57] like the results are more successful. [22:00] um even if there's failure because I've [22:02] learned something and it sort it it all [22:04] it changes dynamic the relationship to [22:06] the work when I think of it that way [22:08] then oh it's I have to deliver this [22:11] amazing thing for these people and if [22:13] the like you said the border isn't [22:14] perfect they're going to see that like [22:15] nobody cares like you know and I've [22:19] heard I've on on the podcast here I've [22:20] talked to many people like you who when [22:23] they look back at their first work like [22:24] oh my gosh how did they pay me for that [22:27] that's ter that work is terrible or in [22:29] from my perspective Right? Like look how [22:31] but that what's that saying is look how [22:33] far you've come from where you began and [22:35] you were still good enough. They still [22:37] paid you. They still loved it. It still [22:39] caused them to think in a different way. [22:40] Like that's what we're here for, right? [22:42] Like the we get so hung up on the [22:45] perfection of the production that we [22:47] forget that the movement forward in [22:50] ideiation and conception and retention [22:53] those are really where the value comes [22:55] for these organizers, right? That they [22:57] remember that event. I remember that [22:58] event and they had that that lady who [23:01] was doing that stuff on the boards. [23:02] Remember they talked about this and [23:04] you've now been a success, right? [23:06] Doesn't even they don't even remember [23:07] what the drawing look like anymore. [23:08] >> Exactly. [23:09] >> So, it's pretty exciting that we get to [23:11] do that. [23:12] >> Also a good thing to remember that [23:14] you're not going to one day just create [23:16] your perfect board. [23:18] >> It's not going to happen. And even if it [23:20] happened like then what [23:23] >> to walk around to perfect boards. So [23:25] where is fun? So, I like thinking about [23:28] that every next board is going to be [23:32] better in some way. [23:34] >> Maybe it's maybe something is not going [23:36] to go exactly right, but it's just a fun [23:39] that fun creative process that uh I I [23:43] chose to deal with daily and it's what I [23:47] what I really love. [23:49] >> Small wins, you know, look for small [23:51] wins. [23:52] >> True. I mean, [23:53] >> they maybe they're not small. I consider [23:55] every win as a big win. [23:57] >> Yeah. Right. You you can frame it [23:59] however you like. Yeah. For sure. [24:00] >> Exactly. [24:04] >> Desant Jane. [24:06] >> So firstly, uh something we just spoke [24:08] about, carry a small sketchbook, [24:11] something that doesn't intimidate you, [24:13] something that you're not afraid to whip [24:15] out with even 2 minutes of free time. [24:18] You can go from start to finish in the [24:20] little bit of time you might have in [24:23] even in a busy day. uh what I think of [24:25] as utilizing the slack periods of your [24:27] day. Waiting for a bus for example [24:29] sometimes. So carry a little sketchbook [24:31] is number one. Number two is you have to [24:34] give yourself permission to be curious. [24:37] You have to not disregard your curiosity [24:40] as silly or pointless. When I go out [24:42] with a sketchbook, one of the things it [24:44] does for me, even if I don't draw [24:46] anything at all that day, is I can feel [24:48] it in my pocket. So I know that I'm in [24:50] the business of observing and looking [24:52] for things that are interesting. Be in [24:55] the business of activating your [24:56] curiosity and seeing what you you know [24:59] your curiosity is tells you something [25:01] about yourself. [25:04] No matter how you draw, nonetheless, you [25:06] are learning this is what I'm curious [25:08] about. This is what grabs my attention. [25:10] And so you foster something beautiful [25:13] about yourself as a human being [25:15] exploring your landscape. So uh carry a [25:18] small sketchbook. Number one. Number [25:19] two, always be curious. [25:22] Number three for me is [25:25] get started as quickly as possible. [25:28] >> You need to make your tools in such a [25:30] way. You need to have your practice in [25:31] such a way that you don't leave any room [25:34] for hesitations. Hesitations don't do [25:36] any good. All they mean is don't do this [25:38] thing. There is no value to these [25:41] hesitations. Start as quickly as [25:43] possible. whatever it takes for you to [25:45] get pen to paper. As a self-conscious [25:47] person in public spaces, you know, I [25:49] started Sneaky Art out of being [25:51] self-conscious. I'm still [25:52] self-conscious. I take commissions and [25:55] I'm in public crowded spots, but I'm [25:57] still self-conscious. But that these [26:00] second thoughts and these stray thoughts [26:01] that stop me from doing things vanish [26:04] the moment that I touch pen to paper. [26:06] Suddenly, I'm in the zone of making [26:08] something and now I'm in it. Now, those [26:10] second thoughts don't matter. So what [26:13] I've learned over time over the past few [26:14] years is I need to close that gap from [26:16] wanting to draw to starting to draw. As [26:19] soon as I can go to the other side, I'm [26:21] fine and I need to spend less time in [26:23] this limbo. [26:25] >> That's those are great great [26:27] encouragements. I think uh everyone [26:29] could benefit from thinking that way for [26:31] sure. [26:33] Cara Holland. [26:36] >> First of all, I'd say be really clear on [26:39] what it is you're trying to achieve. And [26:42] by that I mean um I think the perception [26:45] of graphic recording is very shiny. It's [26:48] very it's these beautiful big graphics [26:50] and it's all very slick and but graphic [26:54] recording can be that stuff you talked [26:56] about at the beginning can be in the [26:57] room much more you know evolving in the [27:01] moment. It's more of a working tool, [27:04] right? I call it that sort of roll your [27:05] sleeves up and get a bit scrappy with [27:07] the information. Doesn't have to be [27:09] tidy. Doesn't have to be in a particular [27:12] kind of pen. Doesn't have to be can be [27:15] on anything in any tool, but it's [27:18] graphic recording still, right? So, be [27:22] clear on what it is you're trying to [27:23] achieve. What does the client need you [27:25] to achieve? And [27:28] work accordingly. Don't over produce or [27:31] over complicate what you're doing if you [27:33] don't need to. That would maybe be my [27:35] first tip. [27:36] >> Okay. [27:37] >> Um second would be second would be [27:42] um maybe it's similar to first. Ignore [27:45] the rules. I think we're really we're [27:47] really good at thinking there isn't the [27:50] right way of doing stuff and there [27:53] isn't. If you if you think about what [27:55] makes you happy, what subjects you're [27:58] passionate about, what way you like [28:00] working, you know, maybe you like [28:01] working with, I don't know, charcoal and [28:03] watercolor. Well, do your graphic [28:04] recording in that. [28:05] >> Find a way to do it. Yeah. [28:07] >> Exactly. So, sort of pursue your [28:10] passions and your way of being fulfilled [28:13] cuz life is, you know, long and hard and [28:17] you can make yourself [28:19] stressed or you can make yourself happy [28:21] in these little moments. We don't have [28:23] control over everything or many things [28:25] even. But if we can make some choices [28:28] about where we focus our work, then [28:31] that's a good thing. And also it's a [28:33] little bit about why your work is your [28:37] work. [28:38] So it's a little bit about [28:39] individuality, I think. [28:41] >> Mhm. That's good. And then I guess the [28:44] third thing is to find um community like [28:48] seek others whether it's in your in [28:51] graphic recording whether it's um [28:55] whether it's finding other people who [28:56] share a passion for particular way of [28:58] working or a subset of the graphic [29:01] recording community that works in the [29:02] way you do or on the subject that you [29:04] do. Sort of find your people and you [29:07] know get pull from each other and find [29:10] ways to collaborate. I mean even you [29:12] know that the most exciting thing [29:14] >> find ways to work together and you know [29:17] connect with the people where you can be [29:18] mutually useful to each other. [29:20] >> Yeah. I found those are the most [29:22] satisfying when I've partnered up with [29:24] people [29:24] >> that I admire and we've done work [29:26] together. Yeah. [29:28] >> It's been great. [29:30] >> Ted Shackman. [29:32] >> With that being said, the actual [29:33] mechanisms of like how is this thing [29:35] going to work? Um so it starts out just [29:37] like the mind palace where you're going [29:38] to visualize a place you know really [29:39] really well. Um, let's take your [29:41] hometown. Uh, then choose a specific [29:43] spot you can clearly visually see. Um, [29:46] such as, let's say, in your house, let's [29:48] say your kitchen table. Um, what you're [29:50] going to do is when you get a new [29:53] concept you want to put into your atlas, [29:55] you're going to come up with a symbol, [29:57] like an analogical symbol, uh, of that [30:00] represents the concept, you're going to [30:02] build that as a 3D model, and you're [30:04] going to put it on that spot in your [30:07] house or in your big space. Um then once [30:11] you've built that 3D model, you are [30:13] going to while visualizing that 3D [30:16] model, talk and describe what you want [30:19] that symbol to mean. So an example of [30:22] this would be say you want to understand [30:23] the concept of heat stroke. You might [30:26] visualize a bison falling over and [30:28] panting and a little sun above it. You [30:31] might put that in your kitchen sink. And [30:34] then while visualizing that bison with [30:36] the sun over it simultaneously you want [30:39] to you might describe this is the [30:40] concept of heat stroke. Uh some examples [30:44] of heat stroke are uh a runner who's [30:47] been running a marathon and they get too [30:49] hot or a bison who's been out in the sun [30:52] too long. So while you're saying that [30:54] you want to be simultaneously [30:55] visualizing the 3D model. Um you're [30:58] going to that's that's pretty much the [31:00] only mechanism you use to actually put [31:02] things in your atlas. Uh, and then we'll [31:04] figure out, we'll see, we'll see later [31:05] what it looks like to actually use, um, [31:07] the atlas to solve a pretty cool, I [31:09] guess, goals task, um, where you plan [31:11] for what goals you want to accomplish. [31:13] >> Okay. [31:14] >> So, um, Ted and I talked a little bit [31:16] and we thought it might be fun to do the [31:17] first test that I did in maybe an [31:19] abbreviated manner just for time [31:21] purposes. Uh, and that was to set goals [31:24] using this technique for something that [31:26] I need to do this week. I've got plenty [31:28] of things that need to be done. So, it [31:29] seemed like a really logical thing to [31:31] do. So, with that framing, why don't you [31:33] go ahead and start the test and then [31:35] we'll we'll run it. And I think maybe [31:37] let's go for like two goals just for [31:39] time purposes. I think I have two goals [31:41] in mind I can I can pick. [31:43] >> Okay. Um so, first step is choose a spot [31:46] in your hometown uh that you can clearly [31:48] see. [31:49] >> Okay, got it. [31:50] >> Okay. Um and where is it? [31:53] >> Um I think uh and for this [31:54] demonstration, I'm sitting at my dining [31:56] room table. [31:57] >> Sure. Great. And so now what's the first [31:59] goal? [32:01] >> So the first goal is um I need to pull [32:04] some weeds today now that it's cool. [32:06] It's been blazing hot. So [32:08] >> awesome. Uh so uh can you come up with [32:11] an analogical symbol that represents [32:12] this idea of needing to pull weeds? An [32:15] example might be um uh you reaching down [32:18] and literally pulling weeds. [32:20] >> A physical act. Yeah. I can imagine the [32:22] weeds that I need to pull cuz I've seen [32:23] them a lot. And I can imagine actually [32:25] it's very satisfying this particular [32:27] weave when you pull it, it's sort of [32:28] like if you pull a little bit, it's [32:30] actually pops and the whole uh root [32:33] comes out with it. So I can use that. I [32:36] can imagine that. [32:37] >> So now take that 3D model and put it um [32:40] uh on your dining room table. [32:42] >> Okay. Okay. Now while visualizing the 3D [32:47] model you just put on your dining room [32:49] table, describe what you want this to [32:52] represent. So, okay, here's the best way [32:54] I found uh people people can understand [32:56] what this task is. Um, imagine if uh you [33:01] just drew like wrote or drew this 3D [33:03] model on a whiteboard and then a whole [33:05] room of people are wondering like what [33:07] does this thing mean? Like why how is [33:10] this going to like um what does this [33:12] mean in the rest of the lecture? Um now, [33:14] uh you need to be visualizing the 3D [33:17] model you built the whole time while [33:19] you're talking. You can imagine if [33:21] you're if your eyes are going somewhere [33:23] else or if you're like picturing [33:24] something else or you're not even [33:25] picturing it, that's like you're [33:27] pointing at something else on the [33:28] whiteboard and the whole class is like, [33:30] "What's this guy talking about?" So, as [33:32] long as you're visualizing a 3D model [33:33] the whole time and you're speaking, [33:35] describing what this symbol is supposed [33:36] to represent, it's going to work. So, [33:38] give it a shot. [33:40] >> All right. Here we go. So, I'm sitting [33:42] at my dining room table and here we go. [33:45] So, and I'm imagining me pulling out [33:47] these weeds, which add the nice [33:49] satisfying pop as the root comes out. [33:52] So, I need to pull the weeds on the east [33:54] side of the house, uh, because they've [33:56] grown outrageously high in the sun and [33:59] the heat, uh, because my wife is being [34:02] frustrated by these weeds being there, [34:04] and she would be happy for them to be [34:06] gone. So, tonight after dinner when it's [34:09] cool, I will go out and I will spend 15 [34:12] minutes pulling as many weeds as [34:14] possible. [34:16] Awesome. Okay. Um, so, uh, you just [34:19] executed the three steps, which is [34:21] choose a spot, make a model, and then do [34:23] a voice over. Um, now you're just going [34:25] to repeat those, but like we referenced [34:27] earlier, you're not going to put this on [34:29] a journey. You're not going to walk [34:30] between these. Um, instead find a place [34:32] in your hometown that's like miles away [34:36] um from this spot and let let me know [34:38] when you have it and what where it is. [34:39] >> Okay. I think I picked a good spot. [34:41] >> Okay. Um, and where is this? [34:43] >> So, this is a little coffee shop that's [34:45] about a mile away. [34:46] >> Cool. Awesome. Um, so now what's your [34:48] second goal? [34:50] >> So, my second goal is I'm helping a [34:52] friend with a logo and I need to do um [34:54] the style guide for for this logo. So, [34:57] colors and [34:58] >> Okay. [34:58] >> rules and such. [35:00] >> Awesome. Um, so now what's a 3D model [35:02] that might represent as a symbol this [35:05] goal? [35:06] >> Well, in this case, I've got a logo, so [35:07] I can actually imagine her logo and make [35:09] that into a 3D model, which would be [35:11] actually very it would make a lot of [35:13] sense here. [35:13] >> Yeah. Um, so go ahead and place that in [35:15] the coffee shop. [35:16] >> Okay, got it. [35:17] >> And now, uh, do the voice over. What [35:19] does this symbol mean? What do you want [35:21] this to mean? [35:22] >> All right, so this is the, uh, Westfall [35:24] Law logo design. Um, I've produced the [35:27] logo. the customer is pleased with it. [35:30] But now I need to take the logo and [35:32] produce the branding document or rules [35:36] so that when the logo is passed off to [35:38] printers and other uh people that uh [35:41] need to use it, they will have [35:43] references to colors and limitations and [35:46] good and bad uses uh for the logo. [35:50] >> Awesome. Um so now you have two icons in [35:54] your atlas. Um, you can use these to [35:57] reason about a problem. So, uh, this [36:00] would work for if you had like 20 goals. [36:03] We actually did a demonstration, uh, [36:05] earlier where you had more goals. Um, [36:07] uh, but since we have two, um, it's [36:10] totally fine. Um, the task you're going [36:13] to do is now come up with a plan that [36:16] accomplishes both goals. And your job is [36:19] to come up with a synergistic plan. So [36:21] don't be like um I want to pull the [36:24] weeds and then do the logo. So this is [36:26] some an example might be like okay if I [36:29] pull the weeds on Tuesday then I'll be [36:31] too tired to um I'll be too tired to uh [36:35] work on the logo. So you want to see how [36:37] they interact. And what you'll notice [36:39] while you're doing this is when you're [36:41] focused on one and you're analyzing it, [36:43] as soon as you notice something that [36:46] would have to do with the other goal, [36:49] your visual attention will just snap. [36:52] You won't have to go, "Oh, I remember [36:54] that it has to do with this other goal." [36:56] And then you'll move your visual [36:57] attention over manually. It'll just [36:59] happen. Then the other thing you'll [37:01] notice is that as soon as your visual [37:03] attention snaps over, the entire idea of [37:07] the second goal is going to hit your [37:10] mind immediately and you'll kind of just [37:12] understand how these two things [37:14] interact. So, um, what you're going to [37:16] want to do to start is visualize just [37:19] one of your goals and you can talk out [37:21] loud and start analyzing it and try to [37:23] be almost as abstract as you can, like [37:26] analytical as you can when you're [37:28] analyzing it. Okay, I think I'll start [37:30] with the second first and see if somehow [37:32] the weeds [37:34] relate to my logo problem. [37:35] >> Yeah. [37:36] >> All right. So, I'm going to close my [37:37] eyes. I'm I'm imagining I'm sitting at [37:38] my uh sitting at the cafe and imagining [37:41] this logo. So, the reason that I need to [37:45] uh work on this is conceptually there's [37:49] a problem when logos tend to go to third [37:51] parties is they tend to screw them up. [37:54] They use the wrong colors. They put them [37:56] in the wrong proportion. They stretch [37:57] them. There's weird things that happen [37:59] with logos and if you don't define if I [38:02] don't define how I want them to appear [38:05] um all bets are off and they it could [38:08] appear in any number of ways. So the [38:11] goal around doing this guide is so that [38:15] those people who use the logo have a [38:17] clear idea of what it is they need to [38:19] achieve and then they can produce the [38:22] logo in the right context and the right [38:24] way to make my client happy. [38:27] And as I'm thinking about this, [38:29] actually, this is pretty weird, but um [38:32] there's something visual about uh [38:36] pulling the weeds [38:38] on that side of the house that I'm [38:39] imagining that just come to me. So, it's [38:41] oddly enough that the idea of the weeds [38:43] had just automatically snapped into [38:45] mind. And there's something about the [38:47] alignment like um I'm defining for my [38:50] house how I want the the the plants to [38:54] to operate and weeds are not part of [38:56] that plan. [38:58] >> Is that weird? Okay. That's like pretty [38:59] bizarre. Like I didn't [39:00] >> Yeah. Yeah. So um so that's actually [39:03] kind of the really cool part of of the [39:04] atlas. Um uh the types of connections [39:08] you find are not like oh this is like [39:11] you know this is this has colors and the [39:12] weeds are like have a color. Um, it [39:14] typically works on extremely deep, [39:18] unintuitive, [39:19] creative, abstract pattern finding. Um, [39:22] so the when you say like, was that [39:24] weird? Is that a weird thing to snap to? [39:25] Um, that's actually like why it's good. [39:28] Um, so, uh, the what happens when [39:31] instead of storing like two goals, [39:32] right, two pretty simple concrete [39:34] things. Um what happens when you store [39:36] uh something like 16 lectures which is [39:38] one of the demos I did is you'll be [39:41] analyzing one of the lectures like the [39:42] anatomy of the heart and you'll notice [39:45] um something uh where you know it's like [39:47] a bilateral mechanism and as soon as [39:50] that idea enters your mind you'll just [39:53] snap over to some other lecture that [39:55] incredibly abstract way shares this [39:58] pattern um and uh in a way that um you [40:02] just wouldn't have thought of um And if [40:04] you if someone said come up with [40:06] something that like complicated and [40:07] abstract, what you'd essentially have to [40:09] do is hold the idea of one topic in your [40:13] mind and then iterate through every [40:15] other topic. Meaning like go over one by [40:18] one and go, does this have this exact [40:19] pattern? Does this have this exact [40:21] pattern? Which is just really slow and [40:23] also not fun. Um uh with the atlas, uh [40:26] you almost get a different mechanism. It [40:29] essentially asks this question across um [40:31] in your atlas. Um, let's say you notice [40:34] a pattern like you did um when uh when [40:38] you were um you were designing the logo [40:40] or you were like fitting the logo to [40:41] exactly what you wanted it to be. What [40:43] essentially happened in your atlas is [40:45] that pattern that complex idea entered [40:48] your thoughts, entered your working [40:50] memory and it got sent down to the part [40:52] of your brain that stores the atlas and [40:55] it asks this wonderful question. what [40:57] object in the entirety of Mike's [41:01] hometown is this pattern? And it [41:04] evaluates this at parallel. It goes to [41:07] your uh your couch in your living room [41:10] and goes, "Is this this incredibly [41:11] abstract pattern of designing the space [41:14] and it's not um it goes to every single [41:16] object and there's one that's more that [41:19] pattern than the others, which is you [41:21] designing your house and pulling the [41:23] weeds. It's like a big competition where [41:25] all of these circuits in your brain that [41:27] represent the objects in uh your [41:30] hometown compete and the one that [41:32] matches this pattern the best wins and [41:34] you just snap to it immediately. Um you [41:38] experience this in less than a fraction [41:39] of a second you experience this as just [41:41] a connection. Um, and the real like I [41:44] guess magic or wonder of the atlas and [41:46] why it's kind of like the the [41:47] realization I came to in the origin [41:49] story which is what happens at scale. [41:51] Um, is you did this with two items, [41:55] right? You did this with two goals. Um, [41:57] the question is what happens when you [42:00] practice this for 9 months. um like I [42:03] have in my case and you have not two [42:05] things but you have 4,500 things and the [42:08] objects aren't simple goals but like [42:10] really complex lectures. Um essentially [42:13] what happens is you will snap to the [42:16] best pattern but it's not the best [42:18] pattern among two things. You snap to [42:20] the best pattern among all the things. [42:22] Um and so uh what practitioners of the [42:25] Atlas get when they scale up is [42:27] incredibly unintuitive and wonderful [42:30] connections. Well, they'll be analyzing [42:32] some lecture and then they'll just snap [42:34] to some lecture they've watched months [42:36] ago that they wouldn't have thought of [42:38] this ever, but it has the exact same [42:39] underlying abstract structure. And like [42:42] in your experience, when they snap to [42:44] it, the entire connection and idea just [42:46] kind of pops into mind at once. [42:48] >> Um, and the really really cool part is [42:51] for typical cognition, that task is [42:54] tough, like almost impossible. Um if you [42:57] ask somebody if you give someone just a [42:58] concept and you say generate a super [43:00] abstract deep analogy with um something [43:03] else uh people struggle as in [43:06] experimentally this is like an [43:07] impossible task. Um with the atlas it's [43:10] easy. Uh and you might be wondering why [43:13] does that task matter? Like why would I [43:15] want to see connections? Um throughout [43:17] history and uh in the research of like [43:19] what makes a good scientist? What makes [43:20] someone who can actually um break make [43:23] breakthroughs in fields? It typically is [43:25] someone who is more skilled at seeing [43:28] connections between different things [43:30] that nobody else can. [43:32] >> That's really fascinating. I And going [43:34] back to that, like I was totally focused [43:37] on describing the logo problem and the [43:40] idea of how the plants fit. It just snap [43:43] themselves on to what I was talking [43:45] about. That was really interesting. Um, [43:48] >> Lindsay Wilson, [43:51] >> I have found myself in those ruts many [43:53] times and you know, I think that again [43:57] is where you know what what you provide, [44:00] Mike, as far as a community. Um, I think [44:04] you know, we we [44:06] not AI but technology, we have so much [44:09] at our fingertips that sometimes it gets [44:11] overwhelmed to even know um where to [44:13] look. So, um I would definitely say [44:16] that, you know, finding a community that [44:18] that's right for you, whatever your [44:20] practice is. Um and and leaning into [44:22] that. Um I'm also a huge huge proponent. [44:26] Um is that the right word? Uh I agree [44:29] with um feedback, looking for feedback. [44:32] Again, I got feedback from two people in [44:34] my life that I wasn't prepared to [44:35] receive. But if you go seeking feedback [44:37] and asking, you're in a position to to [44:40] receive that. So, I think if you can [44:42] find um maybe not your best friend, you [44:46] know, and maybe someone in the community [44:48] um to provide feedback that could help [44:50] you um or give you a direction on maybe [44:52] something that you could improve or work [44:54] on or even practice because my my second [44:58] um uh offering would be practice. I I we [45:01] we teach it in our workshops and it is [45:04] what most people don't want to hear when [45:06] they're starting something new is that [45:08] it takes practice and it takes um you [45:11] know uh dedication with that practice [45:13] and so um I think again with the [45:17] community you can find ways to do that [45:19] or um you know look for avenues to [45:22] practice. And then [45:25] I think [45:26] my third one would be because I often, [45:30] you know, uh I should have added it to [45:32] the tool um as one of the tools, but [45:35] maybe I'll I'll I'll add it here and and [45:37] we'll say both, but your body like I [45:39] don't think enough of us pay enough [45:41] attention. Well, that's rude of me. I [45:43] don't know who's listening. I bet you're [45:45] all great uh practitioners and and [45:47] mindful of your body, but what we are [45:50] doing is physical. whether you're doing [45:52] sketch notes um you know in a small [45:54] capacity doing something large this is [45:57] our physical body this is our brain and [46:00] you know as someone who is we're all [46:02] getting older I'm just realizing that [46:04] you know warming up and giving yourself [46:06] time to get prepared in that space [46:09] whether you're doing um uh sitting [46:12] standing a long day a short day I really [46:15] think understanding and and paying [46:17] attention to your body so I think that [46:19] um both a tool but could also help you [46:21] get out of a rut in that um if you're [46:24] often sitting when you're drawing, stand [46:26] up, get big. You know, I I talk about uh [46:30] your body as a fulcrum. We've got a [46:32] fulcrum in our shoulder. We've got one [46:33] in our elbow, in our hands. And so, [46:35] being able to um to get physical with [46:38] your work, um I think can help you uh [46:41] find some of those images that maybe [46:43] wouldn't have come out if you were [46:44] sitting [46:45] >> or or [46:46] >> that's great, [46:47] >> the opposite. Um, so [46:50] >> I love all three of those on the last [46:52] one especially because I thought often, [46:54] you know, like you say, we sort of uh so [46:56] conditioned to think digitally and like [46:58] I've had cases where I've done projects [47:00] where I've done sketch noting all day [47:01] with my iPad and I came back and my [47:03] shoulder was so twisted up. I just was [47:05] not even thinking about it. I had to go [47:07] to the masseuse and get massaged so I [47:09] could loosen it up. Duh. [47:10] >> It was probably nice, but [47:12] >> yeah. Yeah. I I kind of felt like I had [47:14] to at that point because it was just so [47:16] bothersome that it you know the masseuse [47:18] kind of loosened it up but um [47:20] >> it made me aware too. [47:22] >> Yeah. And the the thing that just [47:24] occurred to me is that you know one of [47:25] our um team members was struggling with [47:28] being able to to um write continuously [47:31] in a straight line, always going up or [47:33] sometimes going down. And you know [47:36] through practice you know it got better. [47:38] But I was like, you know what? I [47:40] actually want you to step back and I you [47:42] know, I want to see your whole arm get [47:44] into this. And you know, once once they [47:47] were able to to kind of practice some of [47:49] those bigger movements, all of a sudden [47:51] that that strain that was causing them [47:53] to go up, I can't remember if it was up [47:55] or down, um was overcome. So again, your [47:58] body, your little hand, your little [48:00] fingers, your wrist, everything. Um, we [48:02] need to take care of it and and figure [48:04] out how we can make it um, stronger so [48:06] that we can continue to do this. [48:10] Andrew Park. The way that I visually [48:13] think through ideas sometimes or [48:14] problems or try and pl solve problems is [48:17] I very much um [48:20] I think I call it v thinking visual [48:23] German [48:24] >> and because the German language is [48:27] constructed with a lot of compound words [48:30] right so [48:30] >> right [48:32] >> um they just tend to like string them [48:34] along until it's a 40letter word that [48:37] like [48:38] >> it's you know it means the same thing [48:40] it's like they strap they bootstrap them [48:42] together. [48:43] >> Yeah. [48:43] >> And I think that um if you do that in a [48:45] visual way with concepts, it often helps [48:48] you get around um problems, right? You [48:51] know, if you think about having a I [48:54] don't know a photocopier and a double [48:57] decker bus, for example, you know, put [48:59] those two together. What what are what [49:01] what does that look like? And what what [49:03] problem is it solving? You know, [49:06] >> you can draw this kind of weird machine. [49:08] It's a it's a bus that copies things or [49:10] I don't know whatever. So, you know, [49:12] when you're applying these in in kind of [49:14] visual thinking terms or in storytelling [49:16] terms, a they're memorable cuz they're [49:19] weird. Mhm. Uh but they also help you [49:22] start to think about the connections [49:26] between things and then the reasoning [49:27] why why you've done that, you know. So I [49:30] love I love visual German in a way of [49:32] just put ju just position is good and [49:37] putting stuff together just to see what [49:39] happens. Putting one thing one thing [49:41] near another and watching what the the [49:44] chemical reaction is. [49:46] >> I like that. [49:47] >> Um so that's that's one visual German. [49:51] Um, [49:52] I think [49:54] what a lot of people procrastinate and [49:57] so half of the challenge is just draw [50:01] something. [50:02] >> Yeah. [50:03] >> Right. [50:04] Even if it's write a title or [50:07] um do a circle and then write something [50:09] in it and then mind map it or do some [50:12] just break break the seal of the paper [50:14] or break the seal of the whiteboard or [50:16] just just make your mark is the other [50:19] thing I would suggest to do because I [50:22] think there's some psychological studies [50:24] that say that um procrastination can [50:27] only we this sounds really obvious like [50:30] procrastination can only be beat by [50:31] doing something. So if you just take the [50:35] step to do it, then you win, right? [50:37] >> Yeah. [50:38] >> You end up like, "Oh, I've done it. Oh, [50:40] what was I procrastinating about?" So [50:42] there's that. So in a visual way, just [50:44] don't procrastinate. Just draw. Just do [50:46] just draw, write, create, [50:48] >> do something. Yeah. Just get moving. [50:49] >> Do do something. [50:51] >> Yeah. H Let's have a think what the [50:54] other thing is. Um I'm not one of those [50:56] people that, you know, it's like learn [50:58] to draw and all that nonsense. Yeah. [51:00] Okay, fine. that's a facility and if you [51:03] want to do that, go for it and there are [51:04] courses and things to do. Um I so I [51:09] would just not be too precious about it. [51:11] So find solutions that work for you. I'm [51:15] a I'm a I I love collage. I'm a collage. [51:18] I love making collage because I it's [51:21] >> I I my whole visual thinking career [51:25] including the RS animates are literally [51:28] collages and I think life's a collage. [51:30] We have a collage of experiences that we [51:34] we manifest which creates our life. So [51:38] um like putting one thing against [51:40] another is collage, right? It's [51:41] justosition. So [51:45] don't be too precious with with stuff. [51:48] Um find what works for you. Don't [51:51] procrastinate about it and just just [51:54] just do it. So, um, [51:58] there are solutions out there. If you [52:00] just draw magic people, you know, draw [52:02] boxes, whatever it is to get your ideas [52:06] down, something will happen over time. [52:08] Look, you'll look at my early RSA anime [52:10] films and they're they're really really [52:12] ropey [52:13] >> because I didn't know what I was doing. [52:15] >> I was learning on the fly. If you look [52:18] at the last one, and we can put the [52:19] links in in the show notes, you'll see [52:22] the difference. It's it's miles apart. [52:24] And I think that for people listening to [52:26] this, just don't worry about that. Don't [52:29] worry about being perfect. Just do it [52:31] and you'll get better and you'll find a [52:33] way that becomes you. Like you said to [52:36] me precool, Mike, you said, "Oh, you've [52:38] definitely got a style." [52:39] >> Oh, yeah. [52:40] >> Which is which is interesting for me cuz [52:42] I never think I do have a style, but [52:44] that style has only happened over me [52:47] just doing stuff, right? [52:49] >> Practicing. Yeah. [52:50] >> Yeah. [52:52] >> Yeah. So, I can't remember what those [52:54] three things were in it. So, visual [52:55] German. [52:57] >> Uh, visual German. Um, no pro, just do [53:00] it. Don't procrastinate and find a way. [53:05] >> So, don't worry too much about how you [53:07] do it. [53:14] The Sketchnote Army podcast was created [53:16] by me, Mike Brody, and brought to you by [53:18] Roadesign Studios. It's produced and [53:21] edited by Alec Pianis of Amp Creative [53:23] Studios. The theme music was created by [53:26] John Sheetmire. To support the creation [53:28] of this show, I invite you to buy one of [53:30] my books, the Sketchnote Handbook or the [53:32] Sketchnote Workbook. You can find the [53:34] books on Amazon or go to peachpit.com [53:37] and use the code roy for 40% off. Please [53:42] share this podcast with other visual [53:44] thinking friends and be sure to leave a [53:46] nice rating on iTunes or your favorite [53:48] podcast listening app so others can find [53:50] the show.  ## 📺 Video ![](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Kxacf4BwBU) --- # 📄 Full Transcript *Auto-generated from YouTube captions · timestamps roughly every 30 seconds · [watch on YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Kxacf4BwBU)* **[00:03]** You're listening to the Sketchnote [music] Army podcast. I'm your host, Mike Roody, the author of the Sketchnote Handbook and the Sketchnote Workbook. And this is the podcast where I chat with sketch noters and visual thinkers [music] and try to understand what makes them tick. [applause] Hey, are you looking for the ideal sketchbook for your sketch noting practice? The Sketchnote Idea Book is the sketchbook designed for sketch noters. Equipped with no bleed, no [music] showthrough paper, you can take almost any marker or pen you can throw **[00:35]** at it. Get 10% off with code army at airship.store. [music] Hey, it's Mike Brody here with season 17's all the tips episode. one of my favorite episodes of the season where we gather all the tips from our amazing guests. We combine them together and put some inspiring music behind them. I think this is one of my favorite episodes because you just get all this wisdom packed into one episode and it's **[01:08]** encouraging and inspiring and you know sometimes when you need a little pickme up is the perfect episode to fire up and listen to. And by the way, we have um I think five or six, maybe more um all the tips episodes going back in the season. So if you like this episode, go back in the in the uh Sketchnote Army podcast archives and find these all the tips episodes and listen to them. There's lots of wisdom in these episodes. So amazingly enough, I was looking at the list of podcasts uh the other day **[01:39]** and noticed that we are at 185 episodes. this one being number 186 and that's over a span of 17 seasons and almost 10 years of podcast. That's a great milestone. I feel really confident and excited about producing that body of work for you. Uh all this started back in 2016 with my friend Maro Tacelli. We had just purchased our iPad Pros and pencils. We were so excited that we couldn't wait to talk to each other and **[02:09]** recorded that discussion. You can still find that as episode one if you want to go back and hear history. The quality of the audio is not perfect, but um you can definitely hear the excitement in our voices. And from that, it just made sense to start having interviews with interesting people that were friends of mine because I was always curious about how people came to this visual thinking space from unusual places and uh in strange ways because I think it's um encouraging. It encourages me because I **[02:40]** can see that people come from all over the place and get into this space and it there's no um one way that seems to be consistent. It's from all over the place and I really like that about sketch noting and visual thinking is that people can come from anywhere and start applying this in their work and see value in doing it. So that's really encouraging. Um, and you know, of course, I'm thankful for every one of the guests from Stephen season 17. I'm thankful for every guest on the podcast. **[03:10]** We've had many really amazing people, a few a couple of times. So, thank you to anyone who's listening who was also a guest on the show. And then of course to the listeners, you, the people that are listening to this right now, thank you so much for making time for this. You know, our lives are busy and finding time to listen to wisdom and people's experiences is always uh encouraging, but it's not always easy to find the time to do it. So, I appreciate you make time in your life to listen to these episodes. Um, and so that's that's **[03:43]** really exciting for me. And I would say if there's a way that you want to say thank you, um, post feedback. go to the place where you listen to your podcasts, whether that's Apple or Spotify or Amazon or YouTube, u and rate the podcast. And the reason for that is um even more for other people. So when uh we rate the podcast and it gives good ratings, uh it starts to bubble up for other people that are interested in visual thinking and it lets them discover the resource that we're creating here for them. So, if that **[04:13]** would be a great thing you could do for me, uh, and then also spread the podcast for others who are likely to to love listening to it. So, I'm excited for season 18 and 2026. I don't know who the guests are going to be yet. That's uh for me to plan over the over the holiday break and into early 2026 and get that lined up for you. So, that's very exciting. And so it's another episode in the can number 186. And I hope that if **[04:43]** you're listening, you have a great holiday [music] season wherever you are. And we'll talk to you again next year. Talk to you soon. [music] Dan Rome. >> I have a friend who's a school teacher [music] who teaches 10th grade and he asked me to come online and we do a virtual session with his 10th [music] graders and we were kind and and they had similar questions cuz hey, you're a published author. You know, you've you managed to have [music] created a career of things that you seem to have been **[05:14]** passionate about your whole life. How in the hell do you make that happen? Yeah. >> And you know the 10th graders, I'm like, "Kids, you know, I wish I could tell you, but the the fact is you got to think [music] between what is a kind of [music] applicable practical part of what you want to do because you are going to have to eat." Like there's that's true. There is an applied practical element to life. You you have to put Cheerios on the table every single day. you. And so **[05:45]** [music] in order to do that, you've got to make some money. So you have to have some practical side. But on the other side, let's not forget the aspirational side because if you're just eating breakfast and you're not dreaming, why are you even living? So you've got to be able to do the practical and [music] the aspirational. So you got to eat and you got to dream. And you're lucky. You're [music] lucky as heck if by building upon the practical and loving your creative [music] side, your dreaming side, you can weave them together into something that will get someone to pay you a dollar [music] to do that. Um, and **[06:17]** kind of explaining it and again, same thing Mike, you're saying is it only makes sense [music] looking backwards. And I want to something you were starting to ask me, how did my parents think about this sort of weird mishmash education? Well, they were delightful. They they by that point [music] maybe it was a little bit of a different era but by the time I left home and went to college like you're out of the house you know parents are like you're you've got agency now you're self-propelled godspeed good luck we're here if you need us but you know [laughter] we're moving and not leaving the address behind so they were just delighted by **[06:48]** the fact that I was able to earn money doing graphic design [music] and then I'll tell you though and this is going to be relevant to where this conversation [music] right now might take us The really critical moment when I was working for that newspaper [music] doing that advertising design perhaps there were two one was learning to ask people I can draw you the picture but to what end what to what purpose is your ad if I know what you're trying to [music] achieve I can make a whole lot better creative advertisement so one was **[07:18]** learning to ask good questions and [music] listen then convert that into a visual or a story the second one is just by virtue of luck being in the [music] right place at the right time the newspaper I was working with was one of the first in San [music] Francisco which was kind of on the bleeding edge at that time given proximity to Silicon Valley to move to digital layout tools. So this was in [music] the late 1980s and so at that newspaper we got the first Mac, [music] we had the first uh Adobe Page Maker, we had Freehand. These are tools that to folks today are the ancestors, **[07:50]** the legacy to our what Adobe is now. Adobe [music] barely even existed at that time. There were other companies. So the trick there, why I think that's important [music] is not only are you learning to be creative and tell a visual story [music] using tools analog or traditional, but now you're meeting at this intersection of this arrival of new [music] technology that is scary as heck and seems [music] to put a lot of your skills out of work. Because if page **[08:22]** maker is going to set up literally the page [music] for me and run the right line for my text and do the suddenly gives me options for [music] you know in the early days 75 different fonts. >> Mhm. Well, a week before [music] I was running that through a liner type machine and this is old, you know, old man telling stories that don't matter. But that was a trade. Like you had to know how to spec things by eye. And now the computer's doing it for you. And it's like, well, should I It's putting me out of work, >> but it is enabling me to focus on the **[08:54]** parts of layout that were compelling anyway. >> Um, so we're going to get to that cuz this is [music] where I think we're at another inflection point right now. >> I think so, too. Yeah, it's a great discussion >> and and if I might share one more story, this was learning and it's going to be relevant for today is I was working at a small scrappy newspaper here [music] in San Francisco and at that time the San Francisco Chronicle was the big daily newspaper, former [music] Hurst newspaper, you know, William Randph Hurst, all the stories. >> Uh, big money, long history. Uh, and **[09:26]** [music] it was really interesting and I don't know how this is going to land with people, but we went over to visit the Chronicle production room [music] and they were a union shop. >> And it was really fascinating cuz we came in to say [music] these are some of the digital tools we're bringing to bear and they were highly resistant because looking at [music] it, if we move to those digital tools, a lot of our journeymen production people are going to be out of work. >> Yeah. >> Well, I have no particular opinion about that. I know what I'm going to do. I'm not part of a union. I'm not part [music] of a labor force to the degree that I know, but I'm going to go ahead **[09:58]** and use these tools because they amp up what I do and we're in a scrappy little shop. Da d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d and you know it's kind of interesting how that [music] played out because none of those people if you didn't make the move to digital you were out of a job. Yeah, >> within a couple of years it was done. [music] And then a decade later I found myself in New York working for a very fancy uh design firm right at the beginning of the internet boom 1997 1998 and I was working for a very famous uh former magazine designer who'd been smart enough guy named Roger Black **[10:29]** >> who had who had been the designer of Time magazine, Newsweek magazine, Smart Magazine, Vanity Fair. I mean, he had been he was the original art director for Rolling Stone magazine under Yan Wer back in the in the glory days for them of the '60s. Suffice it to say, Roger was very smart. [music] He's like, >> uh, there's this thing called the internet and all these publications are coming to our design studio and they're saying, can you help us make a website out of our magazine? And he's like, let's do that. So again by the luck of being in the right place at the right **[11:00]** time technology revolution one digital or rather analog paste up to digital paste up been there learned [music] a lot transition two let's go from print media to online media and so we were there we were designing again the original time.com uh we were doing ibm.com [music] we were doing we designed the original barnes &oble.com before even anybody knew what Amazon was and again forgive me for the old man stories, but it's relevant in the [music] sense that once again, how many **[11:31]** of those magazine design people are even around 10 years later? >> Yeah, [music] >> this is the nature of this beast that we have. And you know, we're in we're in another inflection point right now, which you can imagine [music] where we might want to talk about. I'm going to stop there, but that's the origin story looking back. Katcha Balakina. >> I do have conversations like that uh fairly often uh because uh people reach out online and they um [music] ask me like what to do. They show their work um **[12:05]** and uh uh I what I the first thing I want to share uh with everyone and I we already uh touched [music] it uh in today's conversation. I would say stop overthinking. You are good enough. You're good enough to to go out there. [music] You're good enough to reach the client you want to reach. Just like uh you and that uh Blackboard, >> it doesn't matter if you uh don't have like a big portfolio of big [music] clients. Uh being courageous, being **[12:37]** excited about what you do, [music] understanding why you want to do that. Uh those are the most important things uh you need [music] to have. And um it's really sad [music] again when I see people who I like their work is fantastic. Just u more practice uh >> actual like actual practice in the field [music] would improve their work and uh they're just afraid to get [music] uh in there because they think they're not good enough. And I want to tell that **[13:09]** frustrated person, you are good enough. You you're better than good enough. So go for it. Email whoever email Google uh [laughter] or another great uh tip. It's probably the part of this tip uh is I um [music] told you that I started doing uh graphic recording in English in Estonia >> on my own. My first uh gigs were pro bono when I would just reach to the **[13:43]** organizers describe what I'm doing [music] and they would just uh let me on site like do [clears throat] whatever kind of uh attitude uh and didn't they didn't expect much and uh when they saw the results they were uh fascinated even though >> five six years ago uh my uh uh graph record audience they didn't look as clean, [music] nice. Uh, grammar was all over the place, you can imagine. >> Uh, but people like the result anyway **[14:14]** and it's how I started getting [music] uh real clients from those uh pro bono when I would just show up on site and uh tell everyone what I'm doing. [music] >> And uh that's exactly what I started doing when I came to the United States as well. Uh because it's [music] hard to establish yourself when you know nobody, just my husband and his family and their dogs. That's that's it. >> Uh so I started uh reaching out to like local libraries, **[14:45]** >> uh pro bono events, uh volunteering opportunities just to do what I want to do for real, not in my uh little notebook, uh where nobody can see it. >> [music] >> And I think that's that's a huge part of it. So that would be the first tip. Um just go for it. You're good enough. >> Uh the second tip, uh I would say um simplify your drawings. You don't need **[15:17]** uh you [music] don't need perspective. You don't need dimensions. You don't need a lot of stuff that can get on the way of you working [music] fast. uh because um I mean and it's not only about graphic recording, it's about all the >> [music] >> illustration fields. Uh it's important to know um an anatomy. Uh it's important to know um where the shade should go, [music] shadow. >> Mhm. **[15:48]** >> But uh you shouldn't overthink [music] uh that kind of stuff. Uh we had a great uh exercise uh at Scriberia of drawing uh redrawing famous paintings uh with very minimal amount of lines and [music] it turns out people recognize uh Mona if it's just >> three lines people still see exactly >> people um [clears throat] it just uh so much we can uh uh **[16:18]** translate through uh simple images. It's [music] uh fantastic. So I would say if um someone is struggling with uh drawing realistic [music] people, I uh show uh those people examples of my work when I don't really count fingers, when I have ears sometimes floating in the air, when I draw hair as [music] three lines and uh that's enough. >> People see what they need to see, what I want them to see. [music] And um that's **[16:50]** that's more important than being uh very accurate. And again, of course, it's uh great to practice and I try to do a lot of practice with my drawing, but mostly uh how to simplify [music] uh my drawings even more because I value drawings on the board. I think uh balance is important uh text and images. >> Mhm. And uh uh and I understand how hard it is to think about an image while you're drawing life and people are **[17:21]** talking and you [music] have to store the information they're talking about. I think how to put it on the board. >> Lots going on. >> A lot. Yeah. Too [music] too much uh almost. So it's important to be able to draw something real quick. Quick value of [music] the drawing is huge. >> So that would be the tip number two. >> Okay. And the tip [music] number three, again, something I learned at Scriberia. Uh you notice that I'm really [music] thankful to that experience even though it was remote and I've never been to the **[17:53]** studio to the office >> and I've never met anyone in person from Square. It does feel like I know for like I worked [music] for them almost for 2 years and uh yeah uh never met anyone. Uh but I learned [music] a lot and I value that uh knowledge and experience. Uh if it's this uh tip is more for uh graphic reporters, visual thinker thinkers. >> If your drawing [music] can be a **[18:23]** photograph, you're not pushing hard enough. That tip helped me uh million times on site. Means if you're just uh drawing and laptop when someone is talking about computer science >> yeah pushing move a little harder. >> Yeah. Do something do something more fun. Um and it's such a simple um simple filter like can it be a photograph or not? [music] And you can apply that on **[18:54]** site within seconds to the drawings you're about to make. Uh it can work super simple. You don't have to again I understand the pressure of time and it's hard to think about uh deep metaphors [music] often >> because as you said so much is going on but like you can uh draw uh a little arm uh added to your laptop little face and it's already going to do more than just **[19:24]** uh an image of a a laptop. You can put a person on the screen doing something um and uh you just can do so much uh to uh make your image uh more rich and uh try to communicate more through the image. [music] So yeah, think of if something can be a photograph, do something more fun so it's not just just a photograph. M and maybe that for **[19:54]** someone who's new, let's say a new graphic recorder >> and you're facing that and you want to incorporate that, maybe the maybe the solution is you're doing a pro bono thing, that's where you test this stuff, right? Where >> absolutely >> if you fail, you they're not going to take their money back cuz there wasn't any. Um [laughter] yeah, right. First of all, the another discovery I made uh while working as a graphic [music] reporter. It's so hard to fail and people would really understand [music] that you fail, >> right? >> A lot of people say, "Man, I failed here. My uh frame is not straight and **[20:28]** cares." >> Absolutely. I've done I think over the last uh five years of like active five six years of active work I don't know 200 gigs >> maybe more I've never counted but never anyone [music] would walk uh to me and say hey this this is not good this drawing is not good [snorts] so people don't know if you uh think uh you um did something wrong **[20:58]** >> so you it be ad uh tip now number four. You do you're doing everything right. >> Yeah. >> And it's also good for mental health because I understand the pressure is insane. >> And if something can take that pressure off, I think I do it for my own sake. Like otherwise, as I told you from that call was then I would just melt of stress. >> Mhm. >> And um Yeah. >> Yeah. I lately I've been trying to change this mindset with people to think **[21:29]** of the work you do in sketch noting or whatever as an experiment. Every time you do an experiment, you're going to learn something. You know, scientists don't go into the laboratory and it fails, they never do the experiment again. >> Exactly. >> That's actually the reason to do it again and try something else. Right. And >> totally >> keep [music] exploring because every time you do it, you're learning. But I think it sort of changes. I notice in my own self when I think of things as experiments and I'm playing >> Mhm. like it I loosen up and I take more chances and have more fun and it feels like the results are more successful. **[22:00]** um even if there's failure because I've learned something and it sort it it all it changes dynamic the relationship to the work when I think of it that way then oh it's I have to deliver this amazing thing for these people and if the like you said the border isn't perfect they're going to see that like nobody cares like you know and I've heard I've on on the podcast here I've talked to many people like you who when they look back at their first work like oh my gosh how did they pay me for that that's ter that work is terrible or in from my perspective Right? Like look how **[22:31]** but that what's that saying is look how far you've come from where you began and you were still good enough. They still paid you. They still loved it. It still caused them to think in a different way. Like that's what we're here for, right? Like the we get so hung up on the perfection of the production that we forget that the movement forward in ideiation and conception and retention those are really where the value comes for these organizers, right? That they remember that event. I remember that event and they had that that lady who **[23:01]** was doing that stuff on the boards. Remember they talked about this and you've now been a success, right? [music] Doesn't even they don't even remember what the drawing look like anymore. >> Exactly. >> So, and it's pretty exciting that we get to do that. >> Also a good thing to remember that you're not going to one day just create your perfect board. >> It's not going to happen. And [music] even if it happened like then what >> to walk around to perfect boards. So where is fun? So, I like thinking about that every next board is going to be **[23:32]** better in some way. >> Maybe it's maybe something is not going to go exactly right, but it's just a fun that fun creative process that uh I I chose to [music] deal with daily and it's what I what I really love. >> Small wins, you know, look for small wins. >> True. I mean, >> they maybe they're not small. I consider every win as a big win. >> Yeah. Right. You you can frame it however you like. Yeah. For sure. >> Exactly. **[24:04]** >> Deshan [music] Jane. >> So firstly, uh something we just spoke about, carry a small sketchbook, something that doesn't intimidate you, something that you're not afraid to whip out with even 2 minutes of free time. You can go from start to finish in the little bit of time you might have in even in a busy day. uh what I think of as utilizing the slack periods of your day. Waiting for a bus for example sometimes. So carry a little sketchbook is number one. Number two is you have to **[24:34]** give yourself permission to be curious. You have to not disregard your curiosity as silly or pointless. When I go out with a sketchbook, one of the things it does for me, even if I don't draw anything at all that day, is I can feel it in my pocket. So I know that I'm in the business of observing and looking for things that are interesting. Be in the business of activating your curiosity and seeing what you you know your curiosity is tells you something about yourself. No matter how you draw, nonetheless, you **[25:06]** are learning this is what I'm curious about. This is what grabs my attention. And so you foster something beautiful about yourself as a human being exploring your landscape. So uh carry a small sketchbook. Number one. Number two, always be curious. Number three for me is get started as quickly as possible. [clears throat] >> You need to make your tools in such a way. You need to have your practice in such a way that you don't leave any room for hesitations. Hesitations don't do any good. All they mean is don't do this **[25:38]** thing. There is no value to these hesitations. Start as quickly as possible. whatever it takes for you to get pen to paper. As a self-conscious person in public spaces, you know, I started Sneaky Art out of being self-conscious. I'm still self-conscious. I take commissions and I'm in public crowded spots, but I'm still self-conscious. But that [music] these second thoughts and these stray thoughts that stop me from doing things vanish the moment that I touch pen to paper. Suddenly, I'm in the zone of making something and now I'm in it. Now, **[26:10]** those second thoughts don't matter. So what I've learned over time over the past few years is I need to close that gap from wanting to draw to starting to draw. As soon as I can go to the other side, I'm fine and I need to spend less time in this limbo. >> That's those are great great encouragements. I think uh everyone could benefit from thinking that way for sure. Cara Holland. >> First of all, I'd say be really clear on what it is you're trying [music] to **[26:41]** achieve. And by that I mean um I think the perception of graphic recording is very shiny. [music] It's very it's these beautiful big graphics and it's all very slick and but graphic recording can be that stuff you talked about at the beginning can be in the room much more you know evolving in the moment. It's more of a working tool, right? I call it that sort of roll your sleeves up and get a bit scrappy with the information. Doesn't have to be tidy. Doesn't have to be in a particular kind of pen. Doesn't **[27:14]** have to be [music] can be on anything in any tool, but it's graphic recording still, right? So, be clear on what it is you're trying to achieve. What does the client need you to achieve? And work accordingly. [music] Don't over produce or over complicate what you're doing if you don't need to. That would maybe be my first tip. >> Okay. >> Um [music] second would be second would be um maybe it's similar to first. Ignore **[27:45]** the rules. I think we're really we're really good at thinking there isn't the right way of doing [music] stuff and there isn't. If you if you think about what makes you happy, what subjects you're passionate about, what way you like working, you know, maybe you like working with, I don't know, charcoal and watercolor. Well, do your graphic recording in that. >> Find a way to do it. Yeah. >> Exactly. So, [music] sort of pursue your passions and your way of being fulfilled cuz life is, [music] you know, long and **[28:15]** hard and you can make yourself stressed or you can make yourself happy in these little moments. We don't have control over everything or many things even. But [music] if we can make some choices about where we focus our work, then that's a [music] good thing. And also is a little bit about why your work is your [music] work. So it's a little bit about individuality, I think. >> Mhm. That's good. And then I guess the third thing is to find [music] **[28:46]** um community like seek others whether it's in your in graphic recording whether it's um whether it's finding other people who share a passion for particular way of working or a subset of the graphic recording community that works in the way you do or on the subject that [clears throat] you do. Sort of find your people [music] and you know get pull from each other and find ways to collaborate. I mean even you know that the most exciting thing >> find ways to work together and you know **[29:17]** connect with the people where you can be mutually useful to each other. >> Yeah. I found those are the most satisfying when I've partnered up with people >> that I admire and we've done work together. Yeah. >> It's been great. >> Ted Shackman. >> With that being said, the actual mechanisms of like how is this thing going to work? Um so it starts out just like the mind palace where you're going to visualize a place you know really really well. Um, let's take your hometown. Uh, then choose a specific spot you can clearly visually see. Um, such as, let's say, in your house, let's **[29:48]** say your kitchen table. Um, what you're going to do is when you get a new concept you want to put into your atlas, you're going to come up with a symbol, like an analogical symbol, [music] uh, that represents the concept, you're going to build that as a 3D model, and you're going to put it on that spot in your house or in your big space. Um then once you've built that 3D [music] model, you are going to while visualizing that 3D model, talk and describe [music] what **[30:18]** you want that symbol to mean. So an example of this would be say you want to [music] understand the concept of heat stroke. You might visualize a bison falling over [music] and panting and a little sun above it. You might put that in your kitchen sink. And then while visualizing that bison with the sun over it [music] simultaneously you want to you might describe this is the concept of heat stroke. Uh some examples of heat stroke are uh a runner who's been running a marathon and they get too hot **[30:49]** [music] or a bison who's been out in the sun too long. So while you're saying that you want to be simultaneously visualizing the 3D model. Um you're going to that's that's pretty much the only mechanism you use to actually put things in your atlas. Uh and then we'll figure out we'll see we'll see later what it looks like to actually use um the atlas to solve a pretty cool I guess goals task um where you plan for what goals you want to accomplish. >> Okay. >> So um Ted and I talked a little bit and we thought it might be fun to do the first test that I did in maybe an abbreviated manner just for time **[31:21]** purposes. Uh and that was to set goals using this technique for something that I need to do this week. I've got plenty of things that need to be done. So it seemed like a really logical thing to do. So, with that framing, why don't you go ahead and start the test and then we'll we'll run it. And I think maybe let's go for like two goals just for time purposes. >> I think I have two goals in mind I can I can pick. >> Okay. Um so, first step is choose a spot in your hometown uh that you can clearly see. >> Okay, got it. >> Okay. Um and where is it? **[31:53]** >> Um I think uh and for this demonstration, I'm sitting at my dining room table. >> Sure. Great. Um, so now what's the first goal? >> So the first goal is, um, I need to pull some weeds today now that it's cool. It's been blazing hot. So >> awesome. Uh, so uh, can you come up with an analogical symbol that represents this idea of needing to pull weeds? An example might be um, uh, you reaching down and literally pulling weeds, >> a physical act. Yeah, I can imagine the weeds that I need to pull because I've **[32:23]** seen them a lot. And I can imagine actually it's very satisfying this particular weave when you pull it. It's sort of like if you pull a little bit it's actually pops and the whole uh root comes out with it. So I can use that. I can imagine that. >> So now take that 3D model and put it um uh on your dining room table. >> Okay. Now while visualizing the 3D model you just put on your dining room table, describe what you want this to represent. So, okay, here's the best way **[32:54]** I found uh people people can understand what this task is. Um, imagine if uh you just drew like wrote or drew this 3D model on a whiteboard and then a whole room of people are wondering like what does this thing mean? Like why how is this going to like um what does this mean in the rest of the lecture? Um now, uh you need to be visualizing the 3D model you built the whole time while you're talking. You can imagine if you're if your eyes are going somewhere else or if you're like picturing **[33:24]** something else or you're not even picturing it, that's like you're pointing at something else on the whiteboard and the whole class is like, "What's this guy talking about?" So, as long as you're visualizing the 3D model the whole time and you're speaking, describing what this symbol is supposed to represent, it's going to work. So, give it a shot. >> Okay. [snorts] All right. Here we go. So, I'm sitting in my dining room table and here we go. So, and I'm imagining me pulling out these weeds, which add the nice satisfying pop as the root comes out. So, I need to pull the weeds on the east side of the house, uh, because **[33:56]** they've grown outrageously high in the sun and the heat, uh, because my wife is being frustrated by these weeds being there and she would be happy for them to be gone. So, tonight after dinner when it's cool, I will go out and I will spend 15 minutes pulling as many weeds as possible. Awesome. [music] Okay. Um, so, uh, you just executed the three steps, which is choose a spot, make a model, and then do a voice over. Um, now you're just going to repeat those, but like we referenced **[34:27]** earlier, you're not going to put this on a journey. You're not going to walk between these. Um, instead find a place in your hometown that's like miles away um from this [music] spot and let let me know when you have it and what where it is. >> Okay. I think I picked a good spot. >> Okay. Um, and where is this? >> So, this is a little coffee shop that's about a mile away. >> Cool. Awesome. Um, so now what's your second goal? >> So, my second goal is I'm helping a friend with a logo and I need to do um [music] the style guide for for this logo. So, colors and **[34:58]** >> Okay. >> rules and such. >> Awesome. Um, so now what's a 3D model that might represent as a symbol this goal? >> Well, in this case, I've got a logo, so I can actually imagine her logo and make that into a 3D model, which would be actually very it would make a lot of sense here. >> Yeah. Um, so go ahead and place that in the coffee shop. >> Okay, got it. >> And now, uh, do the voice over. What does this symbol mean? What do you want this to mean? >> All right, so this is the, uh, Westfall Law logo design. Um, I've produced the logo. the customer is pleased with it. **[35:30]** But now I need to take the logo and produce the branding document or rules [music] so that when the logo is passed off to printers and other uh people that uh need to use it, they will have references to colors and limitations and good [music] and bad uses uh for the logo. >> Awesome. Um so now you have two icons in your atlas. Um, you can use these to reason about a problem. So, uh, this **[36:00]** would work for if you had like 20 goals. We actually did a demonstration, uh, earlier where you had more goals. Um, uh, but since we have two, um, it's totally fine. Um, the task you're going to do is now come up with a plan that accomplishes both goals. And your job is to come up with a synergistic plan. So don't be like um I want to pull the weeds and then do the logo. So this is some an example might be like okay if I pull the weeds on Tuesday then I'll be **[36:31]** too tired to um I'll be too tired to uh work on the logo. So you want to see how they interact. And what you'll notice while you're doing this is when you're focused on one and you're analyzing it, as soon as you notice something that would have to do with the other goal, your visual attention will just snap. You won't have to go, "Oh, I remember that it has to do with this other goal." And then you'll move your visual attention over manually. It'll just happen. Then the other thing you'll **[37:01]** notice is that as soon as your visual attention snaps over, the entire idea of the second goal is going to hit your mind immediately and you'll kind of just understand how these two things interact. So, um, what you're going to want to do to start is visualize just one of your goals and you can talk out loud and start analyzing it and try to be almost as abstract as you can, like analytical as you can when you're analyzing it. Okay, I think I'll start with the second first and see if somehow **[37:32]** the weeds relate to my logo problem. >> Yeah. >> All right. So, I'm going to close my eyes. I'm I'm imagining I'm sitting at my uh sitting at the cafe and imagining this logo. So, the reason that I need to uh work on this is conceptually there's a problem when logos tend to go to third parties is they tend to screw them up. They use the wrong colors. They put them in the wrong proportion. They stretch them. There's weird things that happen with logos and if you don't define if I **[38:02]** don't define how I want them to appear um all bets are off and they it could appear in any number of ways. So the goal around doing this guide is so that those people [music] who use the logo have a clear idea of what it is they need to achieve and then they can produce the logo in the right context and the right way to make my client happy. And as I'm thinking about this, actually, this is pretty weird, but um **[38:32]** there's something visual about uh pulling the weeds on that side of the house that I'm imagining that just come to me. So, it's oddly enough that the idea of the weeds had just automatically snapped into mind. And there's something about the alignment like um I'm defining for my house how I want the the the plants to to operate and weeds are not part of that plan. [laughter] >> Is that weird? Okay. That's like pretty bizarre. Like I didn't >> Yeah. Yeah. So um so that's actually **[39:03]** kind of the really cool part of of the atlas. Um uh the types of connections you find are not like oh this is like you know this is this has colors and the weeds are like have a color. Um, it typically works on extremely deep, unintuitive, creative, abstract pattern finding. Um, so the when you say like, was that weird? Is that a weird thing to snap to? Um, that's actually like why it's good. Um, so, uh, the what happens when instead of storing like two goals, right, two pretty simple concrete **[39:34]** things. Um what happens when you store uh something like 16 lectures which is one of the demos I did is you'll be analyzing one of the lectures like the anatomy of the heart and you'll notice um something uh where you know it's like a bilateral mechanism and as soon as that idea enters your mind you'll just snap over to some other lecture that incredibly abstract way shares this pattern um and uh in a way that um you just wouldn't have thought of um And if **[40:04]** you if someone said come up with something that like complicated and abstract, what you'd essentially have to do is hold the idea of one topic in your mind and then iterate through every other topic. Meaning like go over one by one and go, does this have this exact pattern? Does this have this exact pattern? Which is just really slow and also not fun. Um uh with the atlas, uh you almost get a different mechanism. It essentially asks this question across um in your atlas. Um, let's say you notice a pattern like you did um when uh when **[40:38]** you were um you were designing the logo or you were like [music] fitting the logo to exactly what you wanted it to be. What essentially happened in your atlas is that pattern that complex idea entered your thoughts, entered your working memory and it got sent down to the part of your brain that stores the atlas and it asks this wonderful question. what object in the entirety of Mike's hometown is this pattern? And it evaluates this at parallel. It goes to your uh your couch in your living room **[41:10]** and goes, "Is this this incredibly abstract pattern of designing the space and it's not um it goes to every single object and there's one that's more that pattern than the others, [music] which is you designing your house and pulling the weeds. It's like a big competition where all of these circuits in your brain that represent the objects in uh your hometown compete and the one that matches this pattern the best wins and you just snap to it immediately. Um you experience this in less than a fraction of a second you experience this as just **[41:41]** a connection. Um, and the real like I guess magic or wonder of the atlas and why it's kind of like the the realization I came to in the origin story which is what happens at scale. Um, is you did this with two items, [music] right? You did this with two goals. Um, the question is what happens when you practice this for 9 months. [music] um like I have in my case and you have not two things but you have 4,500 things and the objects aren't simple goals but like really complex **[42:11]** lectures. Um essentially what happens is you will snap to the best pattern but it's not the best pattern among two things. [music] You snap to the best pattern among all the things. Um and so uh what practitioners of the Atlas get when they scale up is incredibly unintuitive and wonderful connections. Well, they'll be analyzing some lecture and then they'll just snap to some lecture they've watched months ago that they wouldn't have thought of this ever, but it has the exact same underlying abstract structure. [music] **[42:41]** And like in [clears throat] your experience, when they snap to it, the entire connection and idea just kind of pops into mind at once. >> Um, and the really really cool part is for typical cognition, that task is tough, like almost impossible. Um if you ask somebody if you give someone just a concept and you say generate a super abstract deep analogy with um something else uh people struggle as in experimentally this is like an impossible task. Um with the atlas it's easy. Uh and you might be wondering why **[43:13]** does that task matter? Like why would I want to see connections? [music] um throughout history and uh in the research of like what makes a good scientist, what makes someone who can actually um break make breakthroughs in fields, it typically is someone who is more skilled at seeing connections between different things that nobody else can. >> That's really fascinating. I and going back to that like I was totally focused on describing the logo problem and the idea of how the plants fit it just snap **[43:43]** themselves on to what I was talking about. That was really interesting. Um, >> Lindsay [music] Wilson, >> I have found myself in those ruts many times. And, you [laughter] know, I think that again is where, you know, what what you provide, Mike, as far as a community. Um, I [music] think, you know, we we not AI, but technology, we have so much at our fingertips that sometimes it gets overwhelmed to even know um where to **[44:13]** look. So, um I would definitely say that, you know, finding a community that that's right for you, whatever your practice is. Um and and leaning into that. Um I'm also a huge [music] huge proponent. Um is that the right word? Uh I agree with um feedback, looking for feedback. Again, I got feedback from two people in my life that I wasn't prepared to receive. But if you go seeking feedback and asking, you're in a position to to receive that. So, I think if you can find um maybe not your best **[44:44]** friend, you know, and maybe someone in the community um to provide feedback that could help you um or give you a direction on maybe something that you could improve or work on or even practice because my my second um uh offering would be practice. I I we we teach it in our workshops and it is what most people don't want to hear when they're starting something new is that it takes practice [music] and it takes um you know uh dedication with that practice and so um I think again with **[45:17]** the community you can find ways to do that or um you know look for avenues to practice. And then I think my third one would be because I often, you know, uh I should have added it to the tool um as one of the tools, but maybe I'll I'll I'll add it here and and we'll say both. But your body, like I don't think enough of us pay enough attention. Well, that's rude of me. I don't know who's listening. I bet you're all great uh practitioners and and **[45:47]** mindful of your body, but what we are doing is physical. whether you're doing sketch notes um you know in a small capacity doing something large this is our physical body this is our brain and you know as someone who is we're all getting older I'm just realizing that you know warming up and giving yourself time to get prepared in that space whether you're doing um uh sitting standing [music] a long day a short day I really think understanding and and paying attention to your body so I think that [music] **[46:19]** um both a tool but could also help you get out of a rut in that um if you're often sitting when [music] you're drawing, stand up, get big. You know, I I talk about uh your body as a fulcrum. We've got a fulcrum in our shoulder. We've got one in our elbow, in our hands. And so, being able to um to get physical with your work, um [music] I think can help you uh find some of those images that maybe wouldn't have come out if you were sitting >> or or >> that's great, >> the opposite. Um, so **[46:50]** >> I love all three of those on the last one especially because I thought often, you know, like you say, we sort of uh so conditioned to think digitally and like I've had cases where I've done projects [music] where I've done sketch noting all day with my iPad and I came back and my shoulder was so twisted up. I just was not even thinking about it. I had to go to the masseuse and get massaged so I could loosen it up. Duh. >> It was probably nice, but [laughter] >> yeah. Yeah. I I kind of felt like I had to at that point because it was just so bothersome that it you know the masseuse kind of loosened it up but um **[47:20]** >> it made me aware too. >> Yeah. And the the thing that just occurred to me is that you know one of our um [music] team members was struggling with being able to to um write continuously in a straight line, always going up or sometimes going down. And you know through practice you know it got better. But I was like, you know what? I actually want you to step back and I you know, I want to see your whole arm get into this. And you know, once [music] once they were able to to kind of practice some of those bigger movements, all of a sudden that that **[47:52]** strain that was causing them to go up, I can't remember if it was up or down, um was overcome. So again, your body, your little hand, your little fingers, your wrist, everything. Um, we need to take care of it and and figure out how we can make it um, stronger so that we [music] can continue to do this. Andrew Park. The way that I visually think [music] through ideas sometimes or problems or try and pl solve problems is I very much um I think I call it v thinking visual **[48:23]** German >> and because [music] the German language is constructed with a lot of compound words right so >> right >> [music] >> um they just tend to like string them along until it's a 40letter word that like >> it's you know it means the same thing it's like they strap they bootstrap them together. >> Yeah. >> And I think that um if you do that in a visual way with concepts, it often helps [music] you get around um problems, right? You know, if you think about having [music] a I don't know a **[48:55]** photocopier and a double decker bus, for example, you know, put those two together. What what are what what does that look like? And [music] what what problem is it solving? You know, >> you can draw this kind of weird machine. [music] It's a it's a bus that copies things or I don't know whatever. So, you know, when you're applying these in in kind of visual thinking [music] terms or in storytelling terms, a they're memorable cuz they're weird. Mhm. Uh but [music] they also help you start to think about the connections between **[49:26]** things and then the reasoning why why you've done that, you know. So I love I love visual German [music] in a way of just put ju just position is good and putting stuff [music] together just to see what happens. Putting one thing one thing near another and watching [music] what the the chemical reaction is. >> I like that. >> Um so that's that's one visual German. Um, I think what a lot of people [music] **[49:56]** procrastinate and so half of the challenge is just draw something. >> Yeah. >> Right. Even [music] if it's write a title or um do a circle and then write something in it and then mind map it or do some just break [music] break the seal of the paper or break the seal of the whiteboard or just just make your mark is the other thing I would suggest to do because I think there's some psychological [music] studies that say that um procrastination can only we this **[50:28]** sounds really obvious like procrastination [music] can only be beat by doing something. So if you just take the step to do it, then you win, right? >> Yeah. >> You end up like, "Oh, I've done it. Oh, what was I procrastinating about?" So [music] there's that. So in a visual way, just don't procrastinate. Just draw. Just do just draw, write, create, >> do something. Yeah. Just get moving. >> Do do something. >> Yeah. H Let's have a [music] think what the other thing is. Um I'm not one of those people that, you know, it's like learn to draw and all that nonsense. **[51:00]** Yeah. Okay, fine. that's a facility and if you want to do that, go for it and [music] there are courses and things to do. Um I so I would just not be too precious about [music] it. So find solutions that work for you. I'm a I'm a I I love collage. I'm a collage. I love making collage because I it's >> I I my whole visual thinking career including the [music] RS animates are literally collages and I think life's a collage. We have a collage of **[51:31]** experiences [music] that we we manifest which creates our life. So [music] um like putting one thing against another is collage, right? It's justosition. [music] So don't be too precious with with stuff. Um [music] find what works for you. Don't procrastinate about it and just just just do it. So, um, there are solutions out there. If you just draw matchic people, you know, draw **[52:02]** boxes, whatever [music] it is to get your ideas down, something will happen over time. Look, you'll look at my early RSA anime films and they're they're [music] really really ropey >> because I didn't know what I was doing. >> I was learning on the fly. If you look at the last one, and we can put the links in in the [music] show notes, you'll see the difference. It's it's miles apart. And I think that for people listening to [music] this, just don't worry about that. Don't worry about being perfect. Just do it and you'll get better and you'll find a way that **[52:34]** becomes you. Like you said to me precool, Mike, you said, [music] "Oh, you've definitely got a style." >> Oh, yeah. >> Which is which is interesting for me cuz I never think I do have a style, but that style has only happened over me just doing stuff, right? >> Practicing. Yeah. >> Yeah. So, I can't remember what those three things were in it. So, visual German. >> Uh, visual German. Um, no pro, just do it. Don't procrastinate and find a way. **[53:05]** >> So, don't worry too much about how you do it. The Sketchnote Army podcast was created by me, Mike Brody, and brought to you by Roadesign Studios. It's produced and edited by Alec Pianis of Amp Creative Studios. The theme music was created by John Sheetmire. To support the creation of this show, I invite you to buy one of my books, the Sketchnote Handbook or the Sketchnote Workbook. You can find the books on Amazon or go to peachpit.com **[53:37]** and use the code roy for 40% off. Please share this podcast with other visual thinking friends. [music] And be sure to leave a nice rating on iTunes or your favorite podcast listening app so others can find the show.