Are You Struggling With WordPress Plugin Fatigue

Are You Struggling With WordPress Plugin Fatigue? 🔗 **Source:** [Are You Struggling With WordPress Plugin Fatigue?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7aQ4XTFclY) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [wordpress-plugins, agency-management, plugin-fatigue] > author: Agency Action Show > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7aQ4XTFclY > date created: 2024-12-28 10:15 > > # 🏷️ Title: Are You Struggling With WordPress Plugin Fatigue? >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Evaluate current plugin stack for redundancy — reduce management overhead #plugins - [H2] Implement paid discovery for client SEO audits — filter bad leads #sales - [H3] Review SEO conversion optimization — traffic not converting #marketing ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [The Mighty Mo](https://mighty-mo.com/) - [Mañana Web](https://manana.com/) ## 📝 Summary - Agency owners Toby and Kurt discuss WordPress plugin fatigue and management challenges - Why excessive upselling and subscription models frustrate developers and clients - Key pain points include WooCommerce complexity, SEO plugin bloat, and poor UX design - The disconnect between increased SEO traffic and actual conversion rates - Security and maintenance plan pricing strategies for agencies ## 📖 Main Content Plugin fatigue represents a growing challenge for WordPress agencies managing client sites. The hosts identify several categories of problematic plugins: those with aggressive upselling (Monster Insights), plugins that restructure databases extensively (All-in-One SEO), and those that completely take over the WordPress interface. The WooCommerce ecosystem exemplifies this issue, where a basic e-commerce site typically requires 5+ additional plugins to achieve basic functionality. This creates management overhead and potential security vulnerabilities. SEO plugins present a particular paradox - they all provide similar core functionality (title rewriting, meta tags) yet fragment into numerous paid add-ons. The hosts question whether these features should be built into WordPress core given their universal adoption. A critical issue emerges around traffic versus conversions: agencies report increased impressions and clicks but declining actual sales and form submissions, possibly due to AI crawlers inflating traffic metrics without generating genuine leads. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7aQ4XTFclY?t=0) — [H1] Plugin Deletion Preferences - Key idea: Monster Insights tops the list for annoying upselling despite being functionally solid - Evidence: "I have it installed on probably half of my client sites...it's a plugin I trust and like and at the same time it annoys the crap out of me" #### ⏱️ [00:02:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7aQ4XTFclY?t=135) — [H2] All-in-One SEO Database Issues - Key idea: All-in-One SEO causes compatibility problems on dynamic sites with LMS and CRM integration - Evidence: "All the customers that I have had where all-in-one SEO seems to have like taken over the database and restructured things" #### ⏱️ [00:03:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7aQ4XTFclY?t=225) — [H2] UI Takeover Problems - Key idea: Plugins that completely redesign WordPress interface create confusion and learning overhead - Evidence: "It's like I'm on a different website. It's like the whole it takes over the whole back end" #### ⏱️ [00:05:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7aQ4XTFclY?t=330) — [H3] Forced Feedback Annoyance - Key idea: Mandatory deactivation surveys frustrate users when preset options don't match reality - Evidence: "None of those are my choice...choosing something is mandatory to deactivate this" #### ⏱️ [00:07:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7aQ4XTFclY?t=420) — [H1] WordPress Core Feature Gap - Key idea: Universal SEO functionality suggests these features belong in WordPress core - Evidence: "Every site installs one of those plugins that does the exact same thing...why isn't that built into core?" #### ⏱️ [00:09:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7aQ4XTFclY?t=555) — [H2] Add-on Plugin Management Overhead - Key idea: Core plugins with multiple add-ons create administrative burden - Evidence: "You've got that core plugin, but then you've got the eight or nine add-ons that are in there" #### ⏱️ [00:11:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7aQ4XTFclY?t=705) — [H2] Feature Fragmentation Across SEO Plugins - Key idea: Basic features require premium upgrades while competitors include them free - Evidence: "I just want this feature...they're like you need to pay for this...RankMath does needs one for" #### ⏱️ [00:14:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7aQ4XTFclY?t=870) — [H1] WooCommerce Add-on Proliferation - Key idea: WooCommerce represents the worst case of plugin fatigue with mandatory add-ons - Evidence: "Have you ever seen a WooCommerce site with less than five WooCommerce add-ons?" #### ⏱️ [00:17:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7aQ4XTFclY?t=1020) — [H2] Current SEO Tool Preferences - Key idea: Agency teams prefer RankMath and WP MuDev for their comprehensive features - Evidence: "We're using RankMath...Personally, I prefer the WP Moodev plugin. It's simpler, has all the features I need" #### ⏱️ [00:19:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7aQ4XTFclY?t=1185) — [H2] SEO Investment vs Results - Key idea: Agencies investing 10% effort in SEO while 20-30% goes to sales activities - Evidence: "Maybe 10% of our effort is on SEO and 20 30% of our effort is on sales" #### ⏱️ [00:22:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7aQ4XTFclY?t=1350) — [H1] Traffic vs Conversion Disconnect - Key idea: SEO success in impressions doesn't translate to actual business conversions - Evidence: "He's been highly successful at getting traffic to the site, not as successful at converting that traffic" #### ⏱️ [00:25:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7aQ4XTFclY?t=1515) — [H2] Google Search Console Changes - Key idea: September 15th API changes dramatically reduced impression data for third-party tools - Evidence: "Google said you can still do that, but you're only getting 10 results at a time" #### ⏱️ [00:28:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7aQ4XTFclY?t=1680) — [H2] LinkedIn Growth Management Challenges - Key idea: Large LinkedIn networks require significant moderation overhead - Evidence: "I am getting an inordinate amount of spam in my DMs...every time you grow a channel, you got to moderate it" #### ⏱️ [00:31:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7aQ4XTFclY?t=1905) — [H3] Security Incident Cost Reality - Key idea: Emergency hack cleanup costs far exceed preventive maintenance plans - Evidence: "Let's say 200 bucks an hour times 20 hours, that's $4,000...maintenance plan...less than $4,000 and your site's not down" ## 📚 References - [Monster Insights](https://www.monsterinsights.com/) - [All-in-One SEO](https://aioseo.com/) - [RankMath](https://rankmath.com/) - [WP MuDev](https://wpmudev.com/) - [Google Search Console](https://search.google.com/search-console/) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - Plugin fatigue stems from aggressive upselling, interface takeovers, and feature fragmentation that creates management overhead for agencies - SEO tools provide similar core functionality but split features across premium add-ons, suggesting these features should be in WordPress core - Increased SEO traffic doesn't guarantee conversions, with many agencies seeing impression growth but declining actual sales and leads ## 📰 Newsletter **WordPress Plugin Fatigue: When More Isn't Better** Agency owners are reporting increased frustration with plugin management overhead. Key pain points include aggressive upselling from analytics plugins, SEO tools that fragment basic features across premium add-ons, and e-commerce solutions requiring 5+ additional plugins for basic functionality. **What's driving this fatigue?** - Plugins taking over WordPress UI entirely - Mandatory feedback surveys with irrelevant options - Core functionality split across multiple paid add-ons - Database restructuring causing compatibility issues **SEO Reality Check:** Many agencies report a disconnect between SEO success metrics (impressions, clicks) and actual business outcomes (sales, conversions). This may be due to AI crawlers inflating traffic without generating genuine leads. **Action Items for Agencies:** - Audit plugin stacks for redundancy and consolidation opportunities - Implement paid discovery to filter quality leads - Focus on conversion optimization alongside traffic generation Resources: [Learn WordPress](https://learn.wordpress.org/), [Developer Docs](https://developer.wordpress.org/), [WP-CLI](https://wp-cli.org/) ## ✅ Action Items #### DevRel - Developer advocacy: Document plugin fatigue patterns, present at WordCamps - Education: Create workshops on plugin selection criteria and management best practices - Developer experience: Advocate for core SEO features, reduce third-party dependencies - Developer marketing: Case studies on lean plugin architectures - Community management: Moderate discussions on plugin recommendations #### OSPO - Policy & Governance: Plugin evaluation criteria, vendor assessment frameworks - License Compliance: Review plugin licensing compatibility, especially premium add-ons - Security Management: Plugin vulnerability intake processes, update coordination - Software Inventory: SBOM tracking for WordPress plugin ecosystems - Developer Support: Training on plugin architecture patterns - Community Engagement: Upstream contributions to reduce plugin dependencies - Strategic Alignment: KPIs around plugin count vs functionality delivery #### Community - Maintainers: Core feature roadmap input, reduce common plugin needs - Contributors: Plugin review process improvements, quality standards - Sponsors: Support for core feature development over plugin fragmentation - Ecosystem: Cross-plugin compatibility standards, shared interfaces #### WordPress - Core: SEO functionality inclusion, reduce universal plugin dependencies - Core Performance: Plugin impact profiling, performance budget enforcement - Core AI: Content optimization features, reduce third-party AI upselling - Core Program Team: Plugin ecosystem coordination, feature gap analysis - Mobile: Plugin compatibility testing, mobile-specific optimizations - Playground: Plugin testing environments, compatibility validation - Community: Plugin selection education, best practices documentation - Training: Plugin management curricula, security training modules - Marketing: Core feature communications, reduce plugin misconceptions - Support: Plugin conflict resolution, escalation procedures - Design: Plugin UX standards, interface consistency guidelines - Documentation: Plugin selection guides, compatibility matrices - Meta: Plugin directory improvements, better discovery mechanisms - CLI: Plugin management commands, bulk operations support - Hosting: Plugin compatibility testing, performance monitoring - Themes: Plugin integration testing, conflict identification - Plugins: Review process improvements, quality enforcement ## 🧪 Hypotheses - WordPress sites with 5+ plugins experience 25% more security incidents than lean implementations - SEO plugin feature parity suggests 80% of functionality could be moved to WordPress core - Plugin-heavy sites have 40% higher maintenance costs due to compatibility issues - Traffic from AI crawlers inflates SEO metrics by 30-50% without improving conversions ### 📊 Methodology - Survey agencies on plugin count vs maintenance hours correlation - Analyze WordPress.org plugin downloads vs actual feature utilization - A/B testing sites with core SEO features vs plugin implementations ### ❓ Questions - Should WordPress core include basic SEO functionality given universal adoption? - How can plugin developers reduce interface fragmentation and upselling fatigue? - What metrics distinguish genuine user traffic from AI crawler activity? ### 🔮 Future Research - Plugin ecosystem consolidation trends and vendor acquisition patterns - Core WordPress feature gap analysis based on most-installed plugins - Conversion optimization strategies for AI-influenced traffic patterns ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Agencies need plugin audit and consolidation strategies - Policy: WordPress.org could implement stricter UI consistency guidelines - Security: Plugin proliferation increases attack surface and maintenance overhead - Education: Training needed on distinguishing traffic quality vs quantity - Funding: Investment in core features could reduce plugin dependency ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level 8-9 #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: WordPress admin screenshots showing plugin proliferation - Improve: Plugin architecture diagrams, before/after interface comparisons #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full podcast audio available - Improve: Key takeaway audio summaries, plugin demo recordings #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Clear definitions of plugin fatigue, technical term explanations - Improve: Plugin selection decision trees, comparison frameworks #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Step-by-step plugin audit instructions - Improve: Hands-on plugin testing labs, interactive comparison tools #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Cost-benefit analysis of plugin vs core features - Improve: Decision matrices, ROI calculations for plugin investments #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Agency owner discussions, peer experiences shared - Improve: Plugin recommendation forums, collaborative evaluation rubrics #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Individual reflection on current plugin usage - Improve: Self-assessment worksheets, personal plugin audit checklists #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Plugin ecosystem analogies to natural systems - Improve: Sustainability thinking around plugin longevity and maintenance ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear headings structure, descriptive timestamps - Improve: Alt text for WordPress admin screenshots, ARIA landmarks #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Video player keyboard controls available - Improve: Transcript navigation shortcuts, chapter jumping #### Contrast and readability - Present: High contrast video player interface - Improve: Transcript styling for better readability #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Responsive video embedding - Improve: Scalable transcript text, mobile-optimized layouts #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript provided - Improve: Synchronized captions, downloadable transcript #### Forms and interactions - Present: Standard video controls - Improve: Accessible feedback forms for comments ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: Agency perspectives from different geographic markets (California vs Kansas) - Improve: International plugin usage patterns, global accessibility considerations #### Inclusive language - Present: Professional terminology without excessive jargon - Improve: Plain language explanations for technical concepts #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Structured conversation with clear topic transitions - Improve: Visual topic indicators, consistent formatting #### Representation - Present: Two experienced agency owners with different perspectives - Improve: Diverse plugin developer voices, varied business size examples #### Psychological safety - Present: --- ## Full Transcript [00:00] Welcome to the Agency Action Show with [00:02] Toby and Kurt. I'm Toby Kines, one of [00:04] your two marvelous hosts. The other [00:07] marvelous host is Kurt Bonan. What's [00:10] going on, Kurt? Toby, awesome. Awesome [00:12] to be here with you today. Hey, I got a [00:14] question. If you could uh if you could [00:17] delete one plugin from existence, uh [00:20] what do you think that would be? [00:21] >> You know, there's so many great [00:22] candidates, Kurt. I'm thinking. And then [00:25] there's like categories like plugins [00:27] that cause me problems as an agency [00:29] owner is one category. Plugins that just [00:33] kind of suck is another. [00:35] >> Yeah. [00:36] >> Plugins that are like adding SAS [00:38] services is another category of plugins [00:40] I really don't like. Um plugins where [00:44] everything is a premium feature is [00:46] another category. and and I'd love to [00:48] get into all these with you, but let me [00:49] just say um off the top of my head, one [00:52] that particularly annoys me, and I'm not [00:56] saying it's a bad plugin at all. I [00:57] actually think it's a great plugin for [00:59] what it does, but the upselling in it [01:01] just drives me crazy, and I and I have [01:03] it installed on probably half of my [01:06] client sites. So, I it's a plugin I [01:07] trust and like and at the same time it [01:10] annoys the crap out of me with the [01:11] upsells. And that is um [01:15] Monster Insights and and and what a [01:17] surprise. Monster Insights was [01:19] absolutely at the top of my list. I the [01:22] the the backend just constant pitching, [01:25] constant pitching. Um it is is truly [01:29] annoying. Right. So, so that that that [01:31] is definitely one of mine. Um, and that [01:33] comes from a house of plugins that is [01:36] super aggressive on their on their [01:37] marketing and things like that. So, um, [01:40] the other ones, this is going to sound [01:43] uh, harsh. All-in-one SEO has um, really [01:48] locked down some of my clients websites, [01:51] and I don't know if I can [01:53] Oh, I got to be really careful because, [01:55] you know, we have friends in the in the [01:57] space, right? But so is it a great [02:00] plug-in for simpler websites that are [02:02] simply marketing branded websites? I I [02:04] I'm not sure. All the customers that I [02:06] have had where all-in-one SEO seems to [02:08] have like taken over the database and [02:10] restructured things and just made things [02:12] incompatible. They're sites that are [02:14] largely dynamic. So they have LMSs in [02:17] them, active CRM in them, things like [02:19] that. And so maybe that's part of the [02:21] issue, but all-in-one SEO has been [02:23] somewhat of a nightmare on my more [02:24] involved websites. thinking uh there's a [02:28] another category of plugins that change [02:30] the UI where they have their all of a [02:33] sudden there's a colorful topnav item or [02:35] they like have totally rebuilt like [02:38] there's like the WordPress way and then [02:40] there's the way this plugin does it and [02:42] I think an example gravity forms is an [02:46] example of one that does it pretty well [02:47] where like they have a lot of custom [02:49] functionality but it seems very fully [02:51] integrated. [02:53] >> Yes. And I want to say like WP forms is [02:57] seems different. I go there and I seem [02:58] like I'm in a new land like in terms of [03:02] >> I was using the event calendar for the [03:04] longest time and I had a client who was [03:07] really strongarmming me and wanted me to [03:09] use that really simply scheduling [03:11] program and I is it a fox? I can't [03:14] remember. They they have like a you know [03:16] they have a mascot that's part of their [03:18] software, right? Uh, so I load it up and [03:21] poof, it's like I'm on a different [03:22] website. It's like the whole it takes [03:24] over the whole back end of the thing. [03:25] Welcome to Really Simply Scheduling. Do [03:27] this, do that. I'm like, am I am I in [03:30] the site? Am I out of the site? And of [03:32] course, you know, we're experts. We're [03:33] pros, you know, supposedly. But every [03:35] new thing is still an every new thing, [03:38] right? And so then you're like, all [03:39] right, so now I got to figure this out [03:40] and somewhat master this. And it didn't [03:42] take me long to go back to the client [03:43] and go, we we've got some other tools [03:45] you can use. You don't need to be in [03:47] this. Here's [03:48] >> And they're great people. They're great [03:50] people. They're awesome people. It's a [03:51] great product. I just don't like the [03:53] experience. [03:54] >> Well, here's another experience thing [03:55] that is I want to say if I had a choice, [03:59] it'd be a disqualifier. Is when they ask [04:02] me why I'm deleting the plugin or [04:04] deactivating why are you deactivating [04:06] this plugin? [04:08] Like, why? Why? So, well, the [04:10] information is if you're if you're [04:13] developing a plugin, managing a plugin, [04:15] or looking for new features to build for [04:17] your plug-in, I understand I very much [04:19] understand why that question is asked. [04:22] What I don't like is when um I just [04:25] deactivated a product, for example, and [04:27] it said, you know, here are your [04:29] choices. Didn't work as designed, didn't [04:31] do this, didn't do that. Um but none of [04:35] them were my choice. And I was like, [04:36] well, none of those are my choice. None [04:37] of those are accurate, right? None of [04:39] those describe because the truth of the [04:41] matter was my goal had already been [04:43] attained. I didn't need the product [04:44] anymore. But it never never offered the [04:47] option of it met its goal or I'm [04:50] finished with this project or it didn't [04:52] say that. And so I tried to not choose [04:54] something and it said choosing something [04:56] is mandatory to uh deactivate this. And [05:00] I thought, well, that's ridiculous. So [05:02] now I got to make something up. [05:03] >> Well, yeah. And I also think like the [05:06] right time to ask that question is not [05:08] as I'm deleting it. It's like figure out [05:12] how to ask that question as I'm using it [05:14] like and I don't and you might have to [05:15] ask a different question like I maybe [05:18] you have some software it's like I see [05:20] you clicked five times to find this [05:23] button. Was that annoying? like maybe, [05:26] you know, like something integrated with [05:29] my workflow that's not just an annoyance [05:32] at the end when I'm already done with it [05:34] cuz I don't need it for whatever reason. [05:36] >> Yeah. Well, well, that takes us to just [05:38] kind of an overall question about [05:40] plugins and that's um and we're asking [05:43] for you listeners and followers. You [05:44] give us comments could jump in with jump [05:46] in join the conversation, but are are [05:48] you to Toby are you somewhere even close [05:50] to like plug-in fatigue? [05:52] >> Yeah, there's different ways to frame [05:53] it. One way is do you have too many [05:56] plugins on your site? [05:57] >> Yeah. [05:58] >> But another thing is [06:01] plug-in fatigue could be described as is [06:04] WordPress not featurerich enough. For [06:07] example, should WordPress ship with an [06:09] SEO function? There's a strong argument [06:11] to be made. Yeah. [06:13] >> Because if you think of all the SEO [06:15] plugins, they all do they have very [06:18] there's a set uh a set of things all the [06:20] SEO plugins and there's like a thousand [06:21] of them. They all do rewriting of your [06:25] title tags by default. They do that. So [06:28] why isn't that built into core? Every [06:30] site installs one of those plugins that [06:32] does the exact same thing. [06:34] >> Yeah. [06:35] >> It makes me wonder. Um there those [06:38] plugins I'm a big fan of, right? But [06:40] they'll have like a they'll have a core [06:42] version and it's usually something free [06:44] that's in the repository and then every [06:46] little feature that you want is an [06:48] add-on whether that's part of a bundle [06:50] or a separate add-on. And I understand [06:53] why. But then when you go to your [06:55] plug-in listing in your site, you've got [06:58] that that core plugin, but then you've [07:00] got the eight or nine add-ons that are [07:02] in there. And that that gets really [07:04] cumbersome to manage and look at. [07:05] >> Oh, yeah. And I think Yoast um Yoast [07:08] checks a lot of these like boxes that [07:10] annoy the heck out of me. So one they're [07:12] like like don't you want AI to help you [07:14] write this? I'm like no I don't. I [07:16] already pay for chat GBT. It's fine. Um [07:18] and then so that they're trying to [07:20] upsell you on a subscription monthly [07:21] subscription to their AI stuff. And then [07:24] I forget the features but it's like a [07:27] basic feature that other s that RankMath [07:29] has. And I'm like I just want this [07:32] feature. And I go there and they're like [07:33] you need to pay for this. And I'm like, [07:34] now I need two plugins for something [07:36] RankMath does needs one for. And [07:39] RankMath has the same problem, don't get [07:41] me wrong. Like when you go deeper, [07:42] you're like, now I have to pay for this. [07:44] And one thing I love WP MueDev, which [07:48] has been around forever, and they get [07:50] mixed reviews on their plugins. But if [07:52] you buy their plugin, it has everything [07:54] in it. And I'm that's part of me goes, [07:57] why can't these other plugins do it? One [07:59] thing that's uh you know a lot of the [08:01] form plugins do this too where you're [08:03] like I need a a contact form. Great. [08:06] Maybe it's free or maybe it's a premium [08:08] thing. Oh, you want to connect your [08:09] contact form to Mailchimp? Well, you [08:11] need the premium add-on for that. Oh, [08:13] you want to connect SMTP? That's another [08:15] add-on. And this is all the form plugins [08:18] are guilty of this. And it's that to me [08:21] is probably the best definition of [08:22] plug-in fatigue. as a agency owner and [08:25] developer, I say, "Just give me the just [08:29] give it to me, whatever the thing is." [08:31] And they get all this from SAS services [08:34] as well. You know, oh, you want a Tesla? [08:35] Oh, you want it to go faster? You need [08:37] to pay us. And then we'll just write, [08:39] you know, change take the change a yes [08:41] to a no or whatever in the code and now [08:43] it goes faster. Well, that's like some [08:47] of the newest cars, some of the newest [08:49] luxury cars are coming with [08:51] subscriptions to make the radio work [08:54] month after month, to make the heated [08:57] seats work month after month, to to make [08:59] navigation work month after month. And [09:02] so this whole subscription [09:05] nonsense and and we in the space are [09:08] promoting that too. We're telling our [09:09] clients, go out and get recurring [09:10] income, have a membership page, have a [09:12] this, have a that. Um, but in reality, I [09:15] think all of these subscriptions are [09:17] just really starting to weigh on people. [09:19] >> Yeah. Um, there's a funny I was talking [09:22] to a friend, uh, we were talking about [09:24] he was struggling with his satellite TV [09:28] provider. This is a year or two ago. [09:30] He's like, the joke was at the end of [09:34] our conversation was, [09:35] >> don't you, because he ended up quitting [09:37] that and he went to Netflix and Amazon [09:39] and Disney Plus and he's like, don't you [09:41] wish. So, we all hated the the monolith [09:44] subscription TV service and now we don't [09:47] have that, but we have to pay for like [09:48] 10 subscriptions to get the same thing. [09:50] He's like, "Don't you wish there was [09:52] some monolith TV subscription service [09:55] that just packaged it all?" Yeah. Yeah. [09:59] It's It's funny how we want things to be [10:02] old school again. Like I saw a promotion [10:05] for someone that said, "I'm creating [10:07] home appliances that don't connect to [10:09] anything other than the electricity in [10:11] your house, [10:12] >> right?" [10:12] >> Like just I'm going to make washing [10:14] machines that last for 30 years and just [10:17] wash your clothes. You know, it has an [10:19] on and off button. [10:20] >> That's run the load, the load is done. [10:23] >> Here's another plug-in fatigue thing. [10:26] Woo Commerce is probably the biggest [10:30] plug-in fatigue [10:31] >> culprit. Have you ever seen a Woo [10:34] Commerce site with less than five Woo [10:36] Commerce add-ons? [10:37] >> So, in MySpace, yes. Um because there's [10:41] Woo Commerce and then the Lifter LMS [10:42] integration and then if you do uh [10:45] subscriptions, you need the Woo Commerce [10:47] for subscriptions. So, that leaves them [10:48] with with three, right? But um people [10:52] run from Woo Commerce, but then we end [10:55] up in that space where the plug-in is [10:58] really like a SAS platform, right? like [11:00] shortcart is really a SAS, right? And so [11:03] people like no, no, I want to be [11:04] natively hosted inside my and then it [11:06] drives us back to Woo Commerce. So yeah, [11:09] I totally get it. I to Woo Commerce is [11:11] one of the ones I try to avoid like the [11:12] plague, but then there's certain [11:13] instances where customers have to have, [11:16] you know, one or two of those features [11:18] in the add-on list, [11:20] >> I think. So, I recently had a client who [11:23] was getting [11:25] demolished by faulty transactions [11:28] through WooCommerce. And they were [11:30] pinging their PayPal and some of them [11:31] were getting through. [11:34] And [11:35] my solution to them was like, I don't [11:38] trust Woo Commerce to handle this. I [11:40] think you should go to Shopify. [11:43] >> And if you think of like Woo Commerce [11:45] has one job, it's to secure the [11:48] transactions. I mean, if if you scrape [11:50] it all away, that's its job. And it [11:52] can't even do that. [11:53] >> I don't know. Wow. This is like this is [11:56] like maybe we need to get James on a [11:57] call, but it's like um I don't know that [12:00] they view that as their one job cuz it [12:03] seems like they view things as 10 jobs, [12:05] you know? Um and you and I go to the [12:08] simplest of terms, right? We're we're a [12:10] driven type people. So, we go your job [12:12] is to make secure transactions. you [12:13] know, with Lifter LMS, your job is to [12:16] curate learning content, you know, in [12:18] order that makes sense. Um, but yeah, [12:21] there's 15 other things that pile on top [12:23] of that and then it turns into it turns [12:25] into something else. With Woo Commerce, [12:27] there's a whole other industry that's [12:30] adding to Woo Commerce. So, it's not [12:32] just the Woo Commerce add-ons. It's all [12:34] of the other companies that are involved [12:35] in that space. And I know people in that [12:37] space, and they're great people with [12:39] great products. So, that's I'm not [12:40] bashing it. I'm just saying it it's it's [12:42] not a friendly environment especially [12:44] for new people coming into the space. [12:46] Very difficult. So So let's I I I want [12:49] to drive back to SEO like like so what [12:51] are you using for SEO? Because we've [12:52] talked about a couple of things that [12:53] drive you crazy in SEO. What works for [12:55] you with SEO [12:56] >> as an agency? We're using RankMath and [12:58] that's cuz our SEO guy really likes it. [13:00] Personally, I prefer the WP Moodev [13:02] plugin. It's simpler, has all the [13:04] features I need. It's not upselling the [13:06] AI SAS platform. What are you using for [13:08] SEO? [13:10] I have a lot of clients I adopted that [13:12] were on Yoast and then I have some that [13:14] I took off of all-in-one and put on [13:16] Yoast and I'm getting feedback from [13:20] other people now that are telling me [13:22] that Yoast is the worst thing to be [13:23] using but then when I look they have a [13:26] ton of people using it. So I get a [13:28] little bit frustrated and I personally [13:30] am not the SEO expert in my little [13:33] family of professionals. So like you I [13:35] have someone else that runs SEO for us. [13:37] So, so I'm I'm kind of out on a limb [13:39] there. I'm probably looking to make a [13:41] change. I'm just not sure to what yet. [13:43] >> I think too, I haven't done full [13:46] in-depth research, but my understanding [13:48] of the SEO plug-in space is it's like [13:50] 100% parody. They all do the exact same [13:53] thing for different costs [13:56] versus if you compare it to the security [13:58] space, very different. Word fence does [14:00] their own research. They have their own [14:02] definitions of what's a security breach. [14:05] WPMDev security plugin doesn't do that [14:08] last time I checked. It's more just like [14:09] we're going to scan your site and if [14:10] it's hacked, we'll compare it against [14:12] the WordPress database. And so it's a [14:13] more basic security there. There isn't [14:16] feature par between those two plugins. [14:18] And I don't think even if you install [14:20] Secur's plugin, there's not par until [14:22] you use their like hosted platform. [14:26] So SEO seems to me like you could use [14:29] any of the plugins and it's just what [14:30] one's cheaper, what one's faster maybe. [14:34] >> Yeah. more featurerich. I don't like [14:36] that the SEO plugins, and you mentioned [14:38] this, like changing titles and stuff, [14:40] but but it just seems like they take [14:42] over so much of the database and [14:43] restructure things that sometimes you [14:46] lose some control or a sense of control [14:49] of the project. [14:51] >> Yeah. And let's let's keep going on SEO [14:53] here. Uh [14:56] how much investment do you do every [14:59] year, let's say, in SEO in terms of your [15:01] time, money, energy, blood, and [15:03] treasure? etc. I would say I've made a [15:06] fairly large change just this year. Like [15:08] 2025 is kind of like put my my my flag [15:11] in the sand, if you will, and and do [15:14] some more stuff. And it's such a hard [15:16] way to answer because I'm still not sure [15:19] of the results, which is the hardest [15:20] part with SEO, right? Because, you know, [15:23] we we kind of talked before the show a [15:25] little bit, right? Is is it the more it [15:27] changes, the more it stays the same, but [15:29] it's still constantly changing. So like [15:32] I'm doing more content creation, you [15:36] know, more blogging. I'm doing more [15:38] video content and then transcriptions of [15:40] video content and summaries of video [15:42] content, repurposing of video content, [15:46] and then I'm doing a deeper dive with um [15:50] different elements of tagging and [15:52] keywords. And I and I wasn't such a [15:54] keyword driven person before. I used to [15:56] think, Toby, I and and and I maybe this [15:58] was the thinking 10 years ago, right? [16:00] I'm going back in time, but I used to [16:02] think if I create a project and I just [16:04] make really great content, you know, [16:07] really good solid narratives, good [16:10] titles, and I post that, I should be [16:12] good. But that's not what works anymore. [16:14] Like, like, yeah, you still need the [16:16] good content, but you have to drive it [16:18] with the keywords and the searches and [16:20] and the back links and the uh where I [16:23] failed deeply before was internal links. [16:26] we we had scads of content, but we [16:29] weren't internally leaking linking to [16:31] our other elements. And so, we've [16:33] actually been going back in our older [16:35] content and adding those internal links [16:37] and external links and driving things [16:40] more that way for an SEO effort. But, [16:42] um, it's it's quite the job. I would say [16:45] if I were to put a percentage on it, [16:47] maybe 10% of our effort is on SEO [16:50] >> and 20 30% of our effort is on sales. [16:53] And [16:54] >> so, we're not really leaving a whole lot [16:55] of [16:56] percentage of effort left for actually [16:58] doing the client work, [16:59] >> right? There's a thing that I'm dealing [17:02] with right now. So, my team, we've [17:04] invested a ton in SEO um over the last [17:09] two and a half years or so in the mighty [17:10] mo.com. We've really, we have a [17:12] full-time guy who's been investing many [17:14] hours on the I mean, it could be 2,000 [17:17] hours of his time over the last two and [17:19] a half years. He's been highly [17:22] successful at getting traffic to the [17:24] site. not as successful at converting [17:26] that traffic and this this is where [17:28] converting so okay great we increased [17:30] our site stats our impressions and [17:33] clicks to our site through the roof and [17:35] then what we're seeing now and this is [17:37] it t like you're saying it takes time to [17:39] understand the data and what we're find [17:42] I'm finally getting around to it I'm [17:43] like I was looking at Google search [17:45] console lots of clicks I'm looking at [17:47] our form submissions it's steady and so [17:52] there's a misalignment there and so [17:53] right now converse thing about not so [17:56] much SEO but like conversion [17:58] optimization on the site. [18:00] >> Yeah, that's so I've gone public before [18:03] with my skepticism of the use of AI, [18:06] especially by site owners, not agencies, [18:09] but site owners. Like site owners are [18:11] like, "Oh, I've coded this and I want [18:12] you to put it on my website." Like, I'm [18:14] not having those conversations with [18:15] people. I'm I mean I have a service we [18:18] talked about before for that but but as [18:20] far as AI for us for agency use I've [18:23] really started leveraging it more and [18:24] more and you know I've been interviewing [18:26] on other shows people in the AI space so [18:30] it's given me a little more confidence I [18:31] think but I I literally have some [18:34] prompts now where I'm like hey I want to [18:36] give you a collection of these URLs that [18:39] we manage and I want you to analyze [18:41] these efforts and tell me where our gaps [18:43] in coverage are or where where are [18:45] missed opportunities for revenue may lie [18:48] and AI comes back with a list of stuff [18:50] and some of it's nonsense right some of [18:52] it's like I'm not doing that I'm not [18:53] doing but there's some stuff that comes [18:55] back that's very valuable and in the [18:57] last two weeks I've probably spent six [19:00] whole days creating a different series [19:03] of lead magnets and conversion tools [19:05] that AI's recommended because of what [19:07] you said and everyone I shouldn't say [19:10] everyone but like when I talk to people [19:11] on post status and other agency kind of [19:14] platforms terms. A lot of us are [19:16] reporting, yeah, our impressions are up, [19:18] but our conversions are down. Sales are [19:20] down. People aren't selling as many [19:22] contracts or as many jobs as they were a [19:25] year ago. And so, some people point to [19:27] the economy, but I think a lot of the [19:29] impressions and all that stuff has to do [19:31] with LLMs and bots and all kinds of [19:33] stuff is is crawling our sites for data, [19:35] but maybe we're not seeing real [19:37] interaction. And by the way, Google [19:39] Search Console around midepptember [19:41] changed the way that it charges for data [19:45] basically in the sense that it cut off. [19:48] It used to let services like hrefs and [19:52] chat GPT could go and get the top 100 [19:54] results at a time. Say give me a 100 [19:55] results for this term. 100 results. [19:57] Google said uh you can still do that, [19:59] but you're only getting 10 results at a [20:01] time. [20:02] >> Yeah, only getting 10. And so all of our [20:04] clients in the Mighty Moe's impressions [20:06] dropped considerably on September 15th. [20:09] So just that's just [20:11] a fact out there. Um as you look at your [20:14] data, if you go to your data today, [20:15] you're going to see that September [20:16] 15thish, you're going to see a huge drop [20:18] in impressions. However, your clicks [20:20] will be the same. [20:21] >> Yeah. And then it said that in that [20:23] update, they said they weren't going to [20:24] pageionate results or anything. It's [20:26] just top 10 and that's it. And then the [20:29] thing that hit me was, you know, search [20:32] engines used to give you pages of [20:33] results when you would search something, [20:35] right? So at least people could search [20:36] things out or do a deeper dive on a [20:38] search. And then AI searches, LLM [20:42] searches were typically showing, hey, [20:43] here's your top three results. And then [20:46] when you ask AI, well, how did you [20:48] determine these top three results? The [20:50] number one factor was search engine [20:52] results was was the number one factor. [20:54] By the way, along those lines, I've been [20:56] skeptical of that methodology from the [20:59] beginning. And I recently saw like a [21:02] research paper that said the AI engine, [21:04] the LLM, has no idea about its [21:07] algorithm. It really does not have that [21:10] insight. It's just doing a calculation [21:12] based on what it thinks you want to see. [21:14] >> Just making stuff up. [21:16] >> It's making it up based on what it [21:18] thinks you want to see. Um, [21:20] >> okay. [21:21] >> But the question about SEO, you [21:22] mentioned you're doing blogging. I've [21:24] been actually as I've this has been a [21:26] process for me as I thought about [21:29] conversions as a primary lever in [21:33] getting more leads that leads to more [21:35] money. [21:36] >> I've been investing heavily this year in [21:39] LinkedIn [21:40] >> and not SEO but just engagement on [21:43] LinkedIn. I've been doing webinars and [21:45] you've probably been seeing me post [21:46] stuff and I know you're heavily involved [21:48] in LinkedIn. [21:50] How do you think about LinkedIn in terms [21:52] of your overall SEO? Because you [21:54] invested a lot in SEO recently, but [21:55] LinkedIn is a totally different [21:58] marketing thing and these are both very [22:00] marketing oriented functions. Yeah, it's [22:02] really weird and demographically things [22:05] change for us when we changed our focus [22:07] from California to Kansas. I mean, I [22:09] still consider myself, you know, a [22:10] national or international provider of [22:13] services, but I'm local to Kansas and [22:17] nobody in California was using Facebook [22:19] anymore. But then I moved to Kansas and [22:21] everybody and their brother is on [22:23] Facebook. So, I've had to actually [22:24] restore some of my old Facebook work and [22:27] effort and I'm still on LinkedIn pushing [22:29] with LinkedIn. Now on LinkedIn, I set a [22:32] goal of like 10,000 connections and my [22:35] my level of connecting on LinkedIn is [22:37] organically very high, right? So I I [22:39] generally have conversations with most [22:40] of the people I'm connected to. Um that [22:44] has actually served as a disadvantage to [22:46] me. So um I always think it's fair to [22:49] let people know what works and what [22:50] doesn't work. So now that I have over [22:53] 10,000 active connections on LinkedIn, I [22:56] am getting an inordinate amount of spam [22:59] in my DMs. And so um now I'm tasked with [23:04] cleaning out these messages. And yeah, [23:06] they go, you could hire a VA for that. [23:08] You But I like to be organic. I like to [23:09] see what I don't want to miss something [23:10] I really wanted to see. And so I go [23:13] through I now I'm disconnecting from a [23:15] lot of people, but now I'm backfilling [23:16] those connections with higher quality [23:19] contacts. And so it takes a lot of [23:22] management time and and moderation. And [23:24] I don't think people are really ready [23:27] for it. Like they they they think they [23:29] go, "Oh, I just need to grow this." [23:31] Remember, every time you grow a channel, [23:32] you got to moderate it and keep control [23:34] of it, right? And so it always takes [23:36] ongoing work. And that's the phase that [23:38] I'm in with LinkedIn right now. So I [23:40] always encourage the growth, but you got [23:42] to know that there's work on the back [23:43] end of it once you get to whatever your [23:45] goal is. [23:46] >> A great point. And I was I've been [23:47] thinking so I I've been as I've gone [23:50] deep in LinkedIn I was hiring I had a [23:52] service I was hiring for the LA for [23:53] about four months earlier this year to [23:55] help me with the webinar outreach [23:58] connections that sort of stuff. They [24:00] weren't actually h helping with the [24:01] webinar itself but they were had a [24:03] really specific service. It was kind of [24:05] pricey. Um it was 500 bucks a month for [24:08] just like a pretty limited service but [24:10] to me it was the strategy made sense. [24:13] And then I hired someone to help and [24:17] actually hired them full-time. And it it [24:20] was clear that at minimum it was that [24:24] managing this person and it might just [24:26] be a personality thing. It might be that [24:28] I set up the job description wrong. But [24:31] that was becoming a challenge. Managing [24:33] this person that was supposed to take a [24:35] lot of the LinkedIn load off my plate. [24:37] And then now where I'm at is I think I [24:40] need a lower skill VA where I I have to [24:43] define the specific processes, [24:46] assign those weekly processes or daily [24:48] processes [24:50] and I still have to do a lot of the [24:51] work. And this is like the this stuff is [24:55] not easy whether you're doing and the [24:57] one question we talked about earlier was [24:58] like is there such a thing as valuable [25:00] lowcost SEO products or valuable lowcost [25:04] marketing products? Probably not. low [25:06] cost. I mean low effort. Even if it's I [25:09] would pay more to do less effort. But [25:11] unfortunately those things usually [25:13] usually even if you're paying more, [25:14] you're doing a lot of effort. [25:16] >> Yeah, I kind of agree with you. I mean [25:18] it's uh at one point I was maxed out on [25:21] Facebook and I think it's what 5,000 [25:23] connections you can have on or likes or [25:25] whatever they call it on Facebook. On [25:28] LinkedIn you can have 30,000. [25:30] And you know, one someone told me a [25:33] great promotional tactic cuz I'm in the [25:35] e-learning space would be to put a [25:37] sample course into Udemy. And so I said, [25:39] "Oh, that's actually pretty smart. I'm [25:41] going to give that a shot." Um, and now [25:44] I I'm very public about what a disaster [25:46] that experiment was because I put the [25:49] course into Udemy. The topic that I [25:52] picked was very saturated. So there was [25:54] a ton of other courses on the same [25:56] subject matter. Uh, I've had zero [25:58] conversions through Udemy, but I have [26:00] had and continue to get at least 30 spam [26:05] messages a week off of that product. [26:08] People from every continent on the [26:10] planet are telling me they can help me [26:12] improve my sales on my Udemy course. Um, [26:15] it it's just it it's mindboggling how [26:18] much is out there that becomes an effort [26:21] or something to manage or or moderate [26:23] and that that's one of them. Udemy has [26:25] been an absolute disaster for me in that [26:26] respect. [26:27] >> That's a great point. And I I've been I [26:30] mentioned earlier like we've done a [26:32] great job at generating leads with SEO [26:34] and now we're working on our conversion [26:35] process. But part of the the downside of [26:39] doing a great job with leads is we've [26:40] gotten a lot of bad leads. People who [26:43] really need WordPress development. They [26:45] need help, but it's just not a good fit [26:47] for what we're selling. Usually it's a [26:49] price point thing. They want it for [26:50] $100. I mean, I'm not even joking. We we [26:52] get a lot of those calls now that we [26:54] didn't used to get and now so now it's [26:57] like every time the phone rings and I'm [26:59] the one who answers it. I'm like ah do I [27:01] answer this? I think I'm going to send [27:02] it to Google AI and just cross my [27:04] fingers cuz [27:06] well it's such a weird thing because [27:09] sometimes I get calls and and we have a [27:11] note in here about page speed and stuff [27:13] like that. Sometimes I get a call that [27:14] says hey I have a pre-existing site uh [27:16] and I don't have my provider anymore. [27:18] Could you help us do an audit of our [27:20] website? Could you analyze our sight [27:22] speed for us? Could you analyze? And and [27:25] in some cases you say, "Well, yeah. [27:27] Typically what we do is we employ a [27:29] little paid discovery, get credentials [27:30] to your site, do an audit, and let you [27:32] know where we can start. You know, we'll [27:34] give you a proposal. We can apply, you [27:36] know, you could be super nice and say, [27:37] well, we we can apply the cost of the, [27:41] you know, paid needs assessment, the [27:42] paid discovery. We can apply that [27:44] towards the contract if you say yes." [27:46] Um, but that helps weed out, you know, [27:48] the bad leads. Um, but yeah, to your [27:51] point, there's a ton of folks out there [27:52] that just assume that because their [27:55] aunts, cousins, nephews, sister knows [27:58] how to make websites that you should do [27:59] it for free, too. Um, and that's just [28:02] not reality. [28:03] >> Yeah. And I like this question about [28:04] sight speed because it leads me to a [28:06] question that where you were going with, [28:09] is it even valuable to do the sight [28:11] speed work? And this is an SEO question [28:13] we get all the time because we sell SEO, [28:15] too. And people are like, can you just [28:16] SEO my site? And I'm like, [28:20] the product I would sell you for a cost [28:22] you can afford won't help. It's [28:24] basically Yoast Plus. [28:26] >> Yeah. [28:26] >> And and I'm not going to sell that to [28:28] you cuz I don't think it'll help. The [28:29] product you need is going to cost way [28:32] more than that. And it's not going to be [28:35] worth it for you as a small business [28:37] owner. [28:38] >> As a small business owner. So I get that [28:40] a lot here in my hometown. I I go to a [28:43] lot of entrepreneur meetups and there's [28:44] a lot of startups and people get [28:46] referred to me non-stop at these things. [28:48] Oh, Kurt's the WordPress expert. Go talk [28:50] to him. And then they immediately start [28:52] asking me all these high-end, highlevel [28:54] questions. And I'm like, how many [28:57] conversions do you anticipate getting [28:59] through your website? Like, how many [29:00] clients do you serve locally a month? [29:04] Like, you're only generating a couple [29:06] thousand dollars a month in sales. You [29:08] don't have the revenue to do this yet. [29:10] You know, it's the cart before the [29:12] horse. You need you mean you need a [29:14] digital business card. You need a [29:15] one-page marketing site. You need a you [29:18] know, you might need a five-page basic [29:20] brochure website, but you sure as heck [29:22] don't need, you know, community and [29:24] e-commerce and appointment setting and [29:25] all that stuff because your business [29:27] hasn't scaled to that requirement yet. [29:29] >> Yeah. You know, here's something I can [29:31] help. And by the way, anyone who's [29:32] listening, I know this for a fact. If [29:34] you call Kurt, he's going to offer you [29:36] free advice. Like, so we're not saying [29:38] we're untouchable or anything. I here's [29:40] an example. Just yesterday I was meeting [29:42] with a client about something completely [29:45] different for it was they're they're [29:47] working with a nonprofit and we were [29:49] working on the nonprofit's site and then [29:51] at the end of the meeting he's like can [29:53] we take a minute and just look at my SEO [29:55] really quick? I'm having a problem and [29:56] this is on his personal site. I was like [29:58] sure no problem. it. There were some [30:00] very so what what his issue so I looked [30:02] at I go we were looking at a number of [30:04] issues and he's a local has a local [30:07] business that's very local so he needs [30:08] to be in the maps and we're like why [30:09] aren't you showing him the maps and [30:11] first of all he didn't own his Google [30:12] maps so I you know this is free advice [30:15] I'm like let's get you start the process [30:18] of getting you so you can own your [30:20] Google maps step one uh another free [30:23] freebie that I gave him that that's [30:25] super valuable by the way if you don't [30:26] own your Google maps you should do that [30:28] Um, second, I looked at his homepage and [30:31] homepage title was about us. Like this [30:34] is the SEO title and the title. [30:37] >> I'm like, [30:38] >> I think I can this might I don't know [30:41] what impact this will have on your SEO, [30:43] but just changing that will get you in [30:46] the game. Like without this, you're [30:48] nowhere. and and so we just worked it, [30:51] you know, it took like let's say 20 [30:53] minutes total conversing and researching [30:55] and then doing the actual work to claim [30:57] his page and claim his Google page and [30:59] then fix his title tag and he's in the [31:02] game now. And that's but just to give [31:04] you a scope of what you can get for [31:06] cheap, that that's the scope pretty [31:08] much. Yeah. And to your point, I think [31:10] getting started is the hardest point for [31:13] a lot of these folks because they they [31:15] get overwhelmed with all these options [31:17] and and spam and everything else. Like [31:20] they have a million points of [31:22] information coming at them and they get [31:24] overload and do nothing. Whereas if you [31:27] can just have a quick conversation with [31:29] an expert and the expert says, "Hey, you [31:31] might not be able to afford me, but do [31:32] these one, two, three steps to get [31:34] started and then let's take a look at [31:35] where you're at in 30 or 40 days." And [31:37] then may then maybe you're in a position [31:39] to say, "Hey, I could leverage your [31:40] skills or your talents for a three-month [31:43] gig or something." [31:44] >> One thing I really like doing in life, [31:46] and it's part of my job, which I really [31:48] love, and I I have a hunch that you do, [31:50] too. It's we know like as a business [31:54] owner, you got a million things coming [31:56] at you every day. And this is every [31:59] business owner. [32:01] And sometimes you need an expert just to [32:04] say, "Forget all that. do this one [32:07] thing. [32:08] >> You can get it done in an hour. Just do [32:10] that. That's gonna move the needle. [32:14] >> Yeah. It's I always It's the weirdest [32:16] thing. As I've been an agency longer and [32:20] longer, I've come to realize that the [32:22] real value that we bring to the table, [32:24] right, isn't our access and knowledge of [32:26] the 65,000 tools that you can plug in [32:29] with WordPress. Like that's that's an [32:31] impossibility, right? So, it's not about [32:34] how much I know about WordPress, it's [32:36] about how much of an expert I've become [32:39] on these slivers. And so, when I talk to [32:42] a client, you know, and and they're [32:44] saying, "Well, what about this and what [32:44] about that?" I I go, "Look, you know, if [32:46] you're going to work with Mñana as we've [32:48] we've got a tech stack that we've used [32:50] extensively, that we're that we're truly [32:52] familiar with, and we have relationships [32:54] with the people that make these tools. [32:55] These are the tools we're going to use [32:57] to get you on your next step towards [32:58] success." [32:59] And it's they go, "Oh, oh, because it's [33:02] like [33:04] you as a business owner, you don't care [33:06] what tools." Um, and I know I'm probably [33:09] going to rub some feathers wrong, [33:10] especially over on the Etch space [33:12] because their their messaging is very [33:14] different in Etch right now, but a lot [33:16] of the customers I talk to in the in the [33:19] space, in the agency space, they don't [33:22] care if I put them on Wix, Squarespace, [33:24] WordPress. They don't care if I'm in the [33:26] block editor, if I'm using Elementor, if [33:29] I'm on the newest thing. They they the [33:31] customer doesn't really care. Um, and I [33:35] know that people will object to me [33:37] saying that, but the truth is the [33:40] customer really doesn't care. They're [33:41] they're their focus is on a different [33:43] thing in business altogether. They're [33:45] just looking at us as experts to say, [33:47] "Hey, how do you get my message or my [33:49] purpose online so that people can find [33:51] me and spend money with me?" [33:53] >> Yep. Um, we're we have one more uh kind [33:56] of section after this in this podcast. I [33:58] wanted to maybe for the first time ever [34:00] mid podcast say click that bell, [34:03] subscribe, [34:05] like us, leave a comment. More than [34:07] that, leave us a quick comment if you [34:08] have a question. We would love We do [34:10] follow those. We try to get those into [34:12] our podcast. So, leave a question in any [34:14] whatever platform you're watching this [34:16] whenever you're watching it and uh we [34:18] will do our best to incorporate that. [34:20] >> Nice. And then what what's our other [34:21] question? [34:22] >> Okay, Kurt. So this is this is the the [34:25] bigger question. Um [34:28] what are the pros? Let's say you're a [34:29] small business. What are the pros and [34:31] cons of investing in an expensive [34:34] but you know expensive but real security [34:37] maintenance plan with an agency. This is [34:41] a personal struggle. [34:44] Security is almost in the same [34:48] category as accessibility when talking [34:51] to clients. Like they they all want to [34:53] focus on the design, the look, the feel. [34:56] You know, I expected it to have more [34:57] sizzle or splash or what? Like like [35:00] they're all focused on that, right? And [35:01] then you say, "Well, we got to make sure [35:03] the site's accessible." And immediately [35:04] their smiles disappear. They're like, [35:06] "Why do I care about that?" You're like, [35:07] "Cuz you have to. Cuz you have to. It's [35:09] one of the things." And security is the [35:11] same thing. They go, "Well, who's going [35:13] to hack us? We're just some small Tom [35:15] Dick and Harry shop." And it's like [35:17] everybody had runs the risk of getting [35:19] hacked. And then it happens. Someone [35:22] local like a tow company or something, [35:24] some weird anonymous business gets [35:26] hacked and it becomes locally known and [35:29] people freak out. Well, it's easier to [35:31] not be freaked out if you just have a [35:33] little insurance on it. Um, I don't know [35:35] what you use for like real security. I [35:40] think there's I think there's leaps and [35:41] bounds in the security space. I think [35:44] there's like simple backup tools. I [35:47] think you can have some really good [35:49] safeguards in your hosting. Um I think [35:51] there's some really great tools like [35:53] Blog Vault out there. Blog Volta and [35:55] Malcare do a really good job. Um I know [35:58] that a lot of people love Word Fence. [35:59] Personally, it's not one of my [36:00] favorites, but a lot of people love Word [36:02] Fence. Um, but then there's a different [36:05] version of security and that is like [36:07] hands-on with the agency like routine [36:10] backups and routine backups in in [36:12] stagings things that you could quickly [36:14] go okay well we're going to turn this [36:16] off and redirect the URL to this package [36:19] like there there's ways that the agency [36:21] can really be involved hands-on but to [36:23] your point it the more involved you are [36:26] the more expensive it gets [36:27] >> dealing with a hacked site right now [36:30] actually I'm dealing with two one is a [36:34] site that I is was not a client of mine [36:38] and they're a pretty big nonprofit in [36:40] town here, but they came to me and [36:44] they're like, actually I came to them [36:46] cuz I was trying to give them money for [36:48] something. I was like, I think I'm on a [36:49] scam payment page. And I emailed them [36:53] and they're like, oh yeah. And I was [36:55] like, do you want some help with that? [36:58] And they're like, sure. And so I've been [36:59] doing a pro bono just like let me help [37:01] you. And that I mean it's been two day a [37:04] full two days of my time which if I [37:08] charge them that would be a very [37:09] expensive cleanup but to get them back [37:12] to up and it's not even fully it's fully [37:15] cured. It's working. You can now pay [37:18] again but there's still broken stuff [37:21] that that I'm still cleaning up. I'm [37:23] working on another site similar two days [37:26] of my time invested in cleaning it up. [37:30] We're not there yet. Again, like you can [37:32] just picture the dollars. Picture 16 [37:34] hours, maybe 20 hours times whatever [37:37] dollar rate per hour you want to put in [37:40] that equation. It adds up really quick, [37:42] especially if you're [37:44] had they been paying me. Let's put that [37:45] amount. Let's say that's X. Let's say [37:47] I'm charging 100 bucks an hour, 200. [37:49] Let's say 200 an hour, which would be [37:51] like a rush fee on something like this. [37:53] Might even be more. Uh but let's say 200 [37:55] bucks an hour times 20 hours, that's [37:57] $4,000. a maintenance plan with the [37:59] Mighty Mo where we cover this sort of [38:02] thing less than $4,000 [38:05] and your site's not down, you're not [38:07] losing revenue. [38:10] That's when you think of pros and cons. [38:12] That's some one way to frame it. Where I [38:15] get lost on a lot of these situations [38:19] is it's always an emergency, right? It's [38:22] always an emergency. It's always [38:23] timebased and they rarely have any [38:26] safeguards in place at all. they as [38:28] clients, they either were not informed [38:30] by their previous vendor or they just [38:35] bypassed it, right? They abstained from [38:36] any protection whatsoever. And then the [38:39] panic hits and and then they're upset [38:41] when you go, "Oh, that's going to run [38:42] about $4,000 to fix that." Cuz then [38:44] they'll go, "We don't even get that many [38:46] like for a nonprofit. We don't even get [38:48] that many donations in a month." Well, [38:51] that's not my problem. like that's it's [38:54] going to take this much time or it's we [38:57] don't know how long it's going to take. [38:58] We're going to be on the clock hour by [38:59] hour. It could easily go 20 to 30 hours [39:02] of time and and they start to freak out. [39:04] But it's we can't assume we can't assume [39:08] the uh the cost of neglect. It it just [39:12] is what it is. And that's and then it [39:15] makes us out to be like these charlatan [39:16] used car salespeople, but unfortunately [39:20] that's the nature of of what they're [39:21] sitting. [39:21] >> I think so. cuz the charlatan in this [39:24] case, let's picture um [39:27] a broken AC unit in the middle of [39:31] summer, [39:32] >> you're okay. There's like some frame of [39:35] pricing where you're like between X and [39:37] Y. I go, yeah, okay, it's going to be a [39:39] lot, but it'll be done. Then there's [39:41] like [39:42] way more than that. Maybe two or 3x [39:44] that. And people will try to scam. It's [39:46] is that a scam? I don't know. But like [39:48] they're trying to like take advantage of [39:50] the situation and like and so if I want [39:53] to like when I think about how to frame [39:55] this up as an agency owner if you're [39:57] wondering what you should charge you [39:59] need to charge a lot but there's some [40:01] there's something that's too much [40:02] ethically and some you know I never want [40:05] I never will take advantage of someone [40:07] in that situation with a jack by jacking [40:10] up the rates. I don't even charge a rush [40:11] fee. Maybe I should, but like um but it [40:14] will be expensive. And I and what Kurt [40:16] was saying I think is like be firm in [40:19] your boundary that this is a premium [40:21] service. Cleaning up a hacked site is a [40:23] very premium service cuz frankly it's [40:25] hard to find help especially right now [40:28] today. The site's broken. So I I think [40:31] this is kind of what you're saying and I [40:32] agree. It's like this is a premium [40:34] service you're offering. You need to [40:35] charge accordingly. And of course, don't [40:37] gouge people because they are in a mind. [40:39] >> And at the end of the day, the number is [40:41] the number. As soon as we start [40:43] discounting the number, then that [40:45] portrays that we were trying to rip them [40:46] off in the first place. You're trying to [40:48] cut someone a solid and give them a [40:50] discount. And what they're interpreting [40:51] is you were trying to rip me off and now [40:53] I'm getting it for the right price. [40:55] Like, so sales is such a weird thing [40:57] with price anchoring and and psychology [40:59] and all those things. So when you figure [41:02] a number for somebody, the number's the [41:04] number. Like once you pitch it, it's [41:06] pitched. And if you lose the deal, you [41:07] lose the deal. But it's um I think it's [41:11] interesting. You had mentioned pro bono [41:14] and and I and at this level of agency [41:17] work, I'm in I'm 18 19 years in at this [41:19] point with mñana and a couple years [41:21] before that with its previous name. [41:25] I still find myself doing the same [41:27] thing. I don't know what it is. I'll be [41:29] talking to somebody at an entrepreneur [41:31] meetup or something and I'll say, "Hey, [41:32] you know what? I could help you. It'd be [41:33] pretty quick. Let me just do that for [41:35] you." And I don't know where that really [41:37] comes from. Um, but there's there's [41:39] certain proono stuff that we just do. We [41:42] just help some folks out that really [41:43] need it. Um, but that's all the more [41:46] reason why I have to maintain my pricing [41:50] when when I do pitch something. [41:52] >> Great point. I think that's a great way [41:54] to end. Um, just a great way to frame [41:56] that up. Uh, this has been the agency [41:59] action show with Toby and Kurt. Uh, [42:02] again, like, subscribe, whatever you [42:04] kids do these days. Uh, six or seven [42:08] times. By the way, my kids are like, [42:11] "Dad, 67 is done." Like, our teacher did [42:14] it yesterday. Our seventh grade, seventh [42:16] graders tell me this. Our teacher did [42:18] this 67 thing yesterday and no one in [42:20] class reacted. [42:23] Um, Kurt, where can people get in touch [42:25] with you? Uh well I mentioned LinkedIn [42:27] in the show. I'm still on LinkedIn. I'm [42:29] the only current fund on there and easy [42:30] to find. And for business we are manana [42:33] nas. Great. And I'm at the mighty [42:36] moow.com and you can also find me on [42:37] LinkedIn. Uh DM me. I also have by the [42:40] way and if you go to my profile on [42:41] LinkedIn last week I did a a webinar [42:44] about how AI is impacting search. So [42:47] it's kind of relevant to what we're [42:48] talking about here. Uh, thanks [42:50] everybody.