Automating WordPress the Smart Way | Marcel Tannich (OnTheGoSystems) 🔗 **Source:** [Automating WordPress the Smart Way | Marcel Tannich (OnTheGoSystems)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d0CJleNcEI) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [wordpress-automation, wpcli, ai-integration] > author: OnTheGoSystems > source: YouTube > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d0CJleNcEI > date created: 2025-01-16 14:30 > > # 🏷️ Title: Automating WordPress the Smart Way | Marcel Tannich (OnTheGoSystems) > <!-- deep-read:sections start --> ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Learn WP-CLI basics with real use cases — start with plugin management #learning - [H2] Set up staging sites for safer troubleshooting — use tools like InstaWP #workflow - [H3] Explore AI for log analysis and debugging — test with sample error logs #ai-tools ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [WP-CLI Documentation](https://wp-cli.org/) - [WordPress AI Team Updates](https://make.wordpress.org/core/tag/ai/) ## 📝 Summary - Marcel Tannich discusses practical WordPress automation using WP-CLI, bash scripts, and AI integration - Covers support optimization through AI-assisted debugging and log analysis - Explores emerging WordPress AI infrastructure including MCP servers and ability APIs - Emphasizes AI as a tool to enhance rather than replace human expertise - Bottom line: Automation speeds up routine tasks while human judgment remains essential for complex problem-solving ## 📖 Main Content Marcel Tannich, support team lead at OnTheGoSystems and WordCamp speaker, demonstrates how WordPress professionals can leverage automation tools effectively. He explains WP-CLI as a text-based interface that's often faster and more precise than clicking through admin panels. AI integration through tools like Claude and Replit enables rapid prototyping and debugging assistance. The WordPress AI team has built foundational infrastructure including PHP API clients, abilities APIs, and MCP adapters. For support teams, AI excels at analyzing error logs and generating database repair scripts, but human expertise remains crucial for understanding context and communicating with stakeholders. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d0CJleNcEI?t=0) — [H1] Introduction and WP2FA Update - Key idea: New zero-setup email 2FA feature eliminates user interaction requirements - Evidence: "Administrators can enable email 2FA for users without any user interaction" #### ⏱️ [00:02:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d0CJleNcEI?t=150) — [H2] Marcel's Background and Focus - Key idea: Specializes in making automation accessible to WordPress beginners - Evidence: "I try to focus on specific topics and make it enjoyable for people so they can gain real experiences" #### ⏱️ [00:05:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d0CJleNcEI?t=315) — [H2] What is WP-CLI - Key idea: Command line provides text-based control over WordPress installations - Evidence: "wp plugin install woocommerce --activate" replaces five manual steps #### ⏱️ [00:08:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d0CJleNcEI?t=525) — [H2] Learning Curve for Beginners - Key idea: WP-CLI serves as gentle introduction to command line concepts - Evidence: "Even if you never used command line, I would recommend WP-CLI as the first step" #### ⏱️ [00:12:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d0CJleNcEI?t=740) — [H2] Why Automate WordPress - Key idea: Five-second installation beats five-minute manual process - Evidence: "The 5 minutes installation of WordPress is nice but the 5-second one is even better" #### ⏱️ [00:15:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d0CJleNcEI?t=930) — [H1] AI Changes Automation Landscape - Key idea: AI eliminates starting from blank page in development - Evidence: "You don't have to start anymore with the blank page... you describe what you want" #### ⏱️ [00:18:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d0CJleNcEI?t=1125) — [H2] Rapid Prototyping with AI - Key idea: Built graphical WP-CLI interface using Replit's v0 tool - Evidence: "I used AI to generate the frontend app in TypeScript with checkboxes for script generation" #### ⏱️ [00:25:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d0CJleNcEI?t=1510) — [H1] AI in WordPress Support - Key idea: AI excels at analyzing debug logs and creating repair scripts - Evidence: "Found broken attachment meta fields, AI helped write script to delete 57 affected entries" #### ⏱️ [00:32:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d0CJleNcEI?t=1935) — [H2] AI Limitations and Best Practices - Key idea: AI useful for those who can solve problems without it - Evidence: "Don't blindly trust... it might invent functions that don't exist" #### ⏱️ [00:38:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d0CJleNcEI?t=2300) — [H1] MCP Servers and WordPress Integration - Key idea: Model Control Protocol enables AI agents to interact with WordPress data - Evidence: "Ask AI 'give me sales data for last 24 hours' in natural human language" #### ⏱️ [00:45:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d0CJleNcEI?t=2730) — [H2] Data Security Concerns - Key idea: Permission and capability controls remain biggest challenge - Evidence: "Right now you have to give permission for everything... that's weird" #### ⏱️ [00:52:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d0CJleNcEI?t=3130) — [H1] WordPress AI Team Progress - Key idea: Built foundational infrastructure including APIs and MCP adapters - Evidence: "PHP API client, abilities API, MCP adapter bridges abilities API to MCP" #### ⏱️ [00:58:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d0CJleNcEI?t=3525) — [H2] Future of Automated Hosting - Key idea: Web hosts will integrate AI for simplified site management - Evidence: "WordPress.com already has AI chat for spinning up sites with functionality and design" #### ⏱️ [01:05:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d0CJleNcEI?t=3920) — [H2] Translation Automation Example - Key idea: Private Translation Cloud automates plugin translation workflows - Evidence: "Connect GitHub repo, we translate in background, send back via merge request" #### ⏱️ [01:12:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d0CJleNcEI?t=4350) — [H1] AI as Colleague, Not Competitor - Key idea: AI speeds up routines but cannot replace human empathy and decision-making - Evidence: "Use AI like a colleague in your team, not a competitor... it will follow your orders" ## 📚 References - [WP-CLI Official Documentation](https://wp-cli.org/) - [WordPress AI Team Updates](https://make.wordpress.org/core/tag/ai/) - [Replit AI Development Platform](https://replit.com/) - [InstaWP Staging Tool](https://instawp.com/) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - WP-CLI transforms WordPress management from clicking through interfaces to typing efficient commands - AI serves as a development accelerator, helping create prototypes and debug issues faster than traditional methods - WordPress is building standardized AI infrastructure that will allow plugins to declare capabilities for agent interactions - Human expertise remains essential for context, empathy, and strategic decision-making in support and development workflows ## 📰 Newsletter **Smart WordPress Automation Takes Center Stage** Marcel Tannich from OnTheGoSystems shared practical insights on combining traditional automation tools with emerging AI capabilities. His approach emphasizes WP-CLI as an accessible entry point for command-line work, while AI tools like Claude and Replit accelerate prototyping and debugging. Key takeaway: Start with WP-CLI for plugin management and basic tasks, then gradually incorporate AI for log analysis and rapid development. The WordPress AI team's infrastructure work will soon enable standardized agent interactions. **Try This:** Install WP-CLI and practice basic commands like `wp plugin list` and `wp core update` on a staging site. Resources: [WP-CLI](https://wp-cli.org/), [WordPress AI Documentation](https://make.wordpress.org/core/tag/ai/), [InstaWP Staging](https://instawp.com/) ## ✅ Action Items #### WordPress - Core AI: Review abilities API implementation and MCP adapter documentation - CLI: Update command coverage for AI integration scenarios - Hosting: Develop cross-host automation guidelines for WP-CLI usage - Community: Create beginner-friendly WP-CLI workshop materials - Support: Document AI-assisted debugging workflows and best practices #### OSPO - Security Management: Assess AI agent permission models and data access controls - Policy & Governance: Draft guidelines for AI tool usage in development workflows - Software Inventory: Track AI dependencies in automation toolchains #### Community - Maintainers: Share automation templates and WP-CLI script libraries - Contributors: Develop onboarding paths from GUI to CLI proficiency - Ecosystem: Coordinate standards for AI agent WordPress integration ## 🧪 Hypotheses - WP-CLI adoption increases when taught through practical WordPress use cases rather than generic command line tutorials - AI-assisted debugging reduces support ticket resolution time by 40-60% for log analysis tasks - Automated translation workflows improve plugin internationalization completion rates - MCP server integration will standardize AI agent WordPress interactions within 18 months ### 📊 Methodology - Survey support teams on AI tool adoption rates and debugging time improvements - A/B test WP-CLI learning approaches comparing WordPress-specific vs. general tutorials - Track plugin translation completion rates before/after automation implementation ### ❓ Questions - How will WordPress handle granular permissions for AI agent data access? - What security implications emerge from automated site provisioning at scale? - How do we maintain human oversight in increasingly automated support workflows? ### 🔮 Future Research - Standards development for WordPress AI agent capability declarations - Permission models that balance AI functionality with data security - Integration patterns between hosting providers and AI automation tools ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Support teams need training in AI-assisted debugging and log analysis - Policy: Organizations must establish guidelines for AI tool data sharing - Security: Permission systems require overhaul for agent-based interactions - Education: WP-CLI curriculum should emphasize automation workflows over individual commands - Funding: Investment needed in WordPress AI infrastructure and tooling standardization ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level 9-10 #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Code examples, command outputs, workflow diagrams - Improve: Architecture diagrams for AI integration, visual command reference cards #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Live demonstration video format with narrated explanations - Improve: Audio-only podcast version, command pronunciation guides #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Clear terminology definitions, practical analogies - Improve: Glossary of automation terms, story-driven use case examples #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Step-by-step command demonstrations, hands-on examples - Improve: Interactive sandbox environments, guided practice exercises #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Sequential workflows, cause-and-effect relationships - Improve: Decision trees for tool selection, performance benchmarks #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Interview format with Q&A interaction - Improve: Community forums for sharing automation scripts, peer review processes #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Self-paced video content with replay capability - Improve: Written guides, personal automation journal templates #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Ecosystem thinking about WordPress automation landscape - Improve: Environmental analogies for system relationships ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Clear headings structure, descriptive content - Improve: Alt text for code screenshots, ARIA labels for video controls #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Standard video player controls - Improve: Keyboard shortcuts for common video sections, skip links #### Contrast and readability - Present: High contrast video quality - Improve: Captions with sufficient background contrast #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Responsive video player - Improve: Scalable caption text, mobile-optimized viewing #### Media and captions - Present: Auto-generated captions available - Improve: Professional captions with technical term accuracy, downloadable transcript #### Standards reference - Video accessibility follows WCAG 2.2 AA media guidelines ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: European and international perspective from speaker background - Improve: Examples from diverse hosting environments, global use cases #### Inclusive language - Present: Gender-neutral technical terms, beginner-friendly explanations - Improve: Avoid assumptions about technical background, define all acronyms #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Clear section breaks, consistent presentation style - Improve: Chapter markers for easy navigation, visual cues for topic changes #### Representation - Present: Developer and support team perspectives - Improve: Include diverse user scenarios, various skill level examples #### Psychological safety - Present: Encourages experimentation, acknowledges learning curve - Improve: Emphasize staging site testing, normalize making mistakes ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: WordPress automation principles applied to specific tools - Inductive strength: Support examples generalized to broader automation benefits - Causal reasoning: Clear connections between tool adoption and efficiency gains - Analogical strength: Effective comparisons between GUI and CLI approaches #### Fallacies - Appeal to novelty: Slight overemphasis on AI being "the future" without acknowledging limitations - False dilemma: Occasional framing of manual vs. automated as binary choice #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Encouraging and practical, balances enthusiasm with realistic expectations ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No denial patterns present - Attack: No attacks on accusers present - Reverse victim/offender: No reversal patterns present - Emotional cues and rhetoric: Positive and educational tone throughout ## 🎯 Conclusion Marcel Tannich demonstrates that effective WordPress automation combines traditional tools like WP-CLI with emerging AI capabilities. The key insight is treating AI as a colleague rather than replacement—it excels at routine tasks like log analysis while humans provide essential context and empathy. As WordPress builds standardized AI infrastructure, practitioners should focus on learning foundational automation skills while gradually incorporating AI assistance into their workflows. ## 🧱 Refactor Appendix ### 📚 Literature Split Pad Purpose: Stage CEE units that become Literature notes. Split level: H3 ### [H1] WP-CLI reduces WordPress management friction > [!quote] [Automating WordPress the Smart Way](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d0CJleNcE <!-- deep-read:sections end --> ## 📺 Video  --- # 📄 Full Transcript *Auto-generated from YouTube captions · timestamps roughly every 30 seconds · [watch on YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d0CJleNcEI)* **[00:01]** And yeah, we are live. Uh, thank you for joining today's live Q&A after two weeks of break. Basically, we're at some word camps and we also gave a talk. Uh, before we jump into today's discussion, a quick heads up about the latest release of one of our plugins, WP2FA. Basically, in this update, we included a new feature called zero setup email to FA, which basically allows administrators to enable email to FA for users without any user interaction. So once users are created they automatically stop it to a free **[00:34]** uh that's about it in terms of house we do this uh every Thursday live apart from some short breaks from some to time but we do this every Thursday we're streamed live so if you have any questions about what we will be speaking today please feel free to ask us today with me I have Marcel Tanish tan am I pronouncing it correctly Marcel >> hi yes it's correct >> good good to know um so yeah Marcel Well, you're a word world word camp speaker also organizer and you've worked a lot of course with automation the CLI **[01:06]** you gave a talk uh at word camp Europe that's how I found out about you and and I was learning what you do but for those who do not know you can you please introduce yourself >> yes uh first of all thanks for having me great to be on the middle show and yeah for the people who don't know me I'm quite a big fan of automation automation related topics WPCLI console topics and I really enjoy to teach them to the beginners of WordPress or people who are might not confident or might be even a bit afraid. So I try to focus on some **[01:37]** specific topics and make it enjoyable for the people so they can gain with some real experiences with some real use cases and learn about this. Uh yeah I work for on the go systems I running as a uh as a team lead of support team for WPML. Uh as I mentioned I'm an organizer. I was in the past at work camp Europe in 2023 in the content team. I was volunteer. I was speaker in 2021. So every year like I have trying to see **[02:07]** have a different role. And uh currently I'm also active as a co-organizer of web camp. So next year we have our 10 years anniversary. So we will have also a great event. Somebody wants to come and yeah that's quite everything for me. >> Good nice pro actually. Yeah, I would be interested to to come to World Camp Vienna because uh when World Camp Europe was held in Vienna, I couldn't make it. I've been to all World Camp Europe apart from Vienna in Spain. So yeah, but I miss the one in Austria. So I I'd like to come. It's also quite interesting **[02:39]** because I did volunteer in the past and I did co-organize as well, but I never thought about taking different roles in different positions to try new things. Was always like, okay, I usually know how to do this, so I'll stick to what I do. It's quite a good approach actually. >> Yeah. You learn different people of course and you learn everything around the event. >> Exactly. Yeah. No, it's it's a very good move actually and it's also it keeps it interesting for you because you're always doing something a bit different. So you are seeing the event from a different angle kind of thing. So that's quite interesting **[03:11]** before before we we dive into technicalities uh your talk to computer of course about automation uh and you also will talk about it of course today apart from AI which I think almost all listeners know about but you also mention a lot uh WPCLI and bcripts. So before we dive into the subject like for someone who has never touched the command line like what what what is WPCLI and what are bash scripts. Okay. Uh let me explain. So the command line is just a simply text based way to talk **[03:43]** with your WordPress installation with your computer or with your server and instead of clicking the buttons you can automate it on the command line. Or what you can also do that you just type the commands or using scripts to interfere with them. So you have actually full control of both everything what happen on your installation on your server. And the thing is it's basically just another user interface. It's an alternative uh that is much more faster and sometimes even more precise because you can run actions that are repeatable. **[04:17]** >> Interesting. In fact I was at the last word camp I was in campaign. I was talking I think to Tim Nash and we were talking about this cuz many people nowadays are so used to an interface. However, like in reality back in my days I used to be a web administrator and we used to manage both Microsoft IIS server which is a web server with a web with an interface and a patch which is a text file a config file. And funnily enough people might think that with an interface it's more flexible. However, the reality is with a text file is way more flexible because it's just about **[04:48]** using the directive. However, with and you're much faster um with IIS, I remember you have to know where certain buttons are. You have to enable some registry keys to show some settings. It's it's so yeah, it's it's funny because we're moving towards AI. However, the most basic way of interfacing with computers which is command just writing actual commands is it's usually much more effective not gives you more flexibility kind of thing. >> Exactly. Exactly. And the same goes for WPLI. That's basically the WordPress internal command line tool. And pretty **[05:21]** much everything you can do in WordPress in the admin panel, you can also do in the command line. There's some specific commands that are only available as a as a a WPI command. what you can't do in the back end, but it's for example, if you open the the famous black terminal window, what you probably seen in the hacker movies or whatever, and you for example just say wp plugin install vcommerce minus minus activate. It's actually installing the plug-in for you. So, you don't have to go to plugins, all plugins, search for it, click, wait **[05:51]** until it's downloaded, and then activate it. You just uh save that four, five steps by just typing. And that's actually the beauty of direct PCL. Yeah, with one one command or like by chaining some commands you can get like as you said five action instead of clicking and waiting you can just let it run and of course hope it's good to automate as well. So we can do that at on a mass on number of websites for for those who are new like from where can people like start for for **[06:23]** the non-developers kind of thing. How approachable is WPCLI and from where they can start to get an idea of what it is and how to use it. Um, I would say they're actually more approachable than most of the people think because at first the command line looks like intimidating like you say the black window with the blinking cursor but actually I feel that the learning course seems to be quite quite straightforward for the most people. So even if you never used command line, I would recommend you to use WPCLI as maybe as the first step because if you really **[06:54]** list all the installed plug-in or you just install a plug-in by your command, you get like a feeling for it and then once you are inside it, you might can then uh switch to the to the part of the operating system or your own computer, you know, for example, installing a a a program on your Mac with Homebrew, for example, or listing files with LS maybe that is then as best the next step what you can do. So try to first focus on something that really gives you an output and then hopefully **[07:25]** it motivates you to go more far. >> Good. And of course the idea behind these tools which we kind of already mentioned is like it allows for more automation. So to give a bit more context to the users, let's let's go a bit back like why if you just have one website for example most probably you don't need much automation but like to give more context to the user like why would one need to automate the setup of WordPress websites or certain actions on websites. Yeah, I mean if you have just one installation of course there are **[07:56]** many steps that are not needed but you can run backups, you can uh make changes for example or refresh pings but I always say like the 5 minutes installation of WordPress is nice but the 5-second one is even better. So you can of course use different things and automate it and make it for you reproducible and maybe less errorprone because you can let's say you're running a script you're ding your database you have a confirmation that it works you have it on your on your uh on your **[08:26]** computer and then the task is finished you know you don't have to go in a plug-in click and then wait until something is finished like the action is done you can just automate it and that might uh give anyone the the reason to really do that. It's like a huge advantage if you are a freelance. So, I can see spinning up sites to have like this constant pattern guaranteeing everything is the same and it's making the life for you much easier. >> Nice. And especially nowadays, the last year or two, there's this big **[08:57]** high production value with AI because of course AI allows for more automation. So moving from scripting to AI powered tools, uh what changes in terms of automation and what things can you do once AI enters in the mix basically? >> Yeah, I I would say that the biggest change is that once you start to develop something, you don't have to start anymore with the blank page. You know, back in the day when, for example, I started to uh work with PHP, everything was created from scratch. You start by **[09:28]** the HTML tag. You start to set up the servers. But of course with tools like WordPress, this changed over the time. Now you have a web hoster. You have like a one-click button installation with scriptur or whatever. And the installation is already done. So AI most likely now it's just changing the way how you need to know the commands and the sequences before you start doing anything. >> I see. So yeah. Okay. Yeah. >> Yeah. We might can even add in this like for example that now with the AI we are **[09:58]** going in the way that we are describing what we want and not anymore uh try to how we should say define the functionality. You know you say I want a button on my website on the on the right corner and the AI will do it for you. That's maybe like a good way to get started. So do you think there will be kind of like also a bypass of WPCLA and just write an AI like the actual prompt what you need not the actual commands like oh I want which automatically kind of like **[10:30]** connects to WordPress and that is that will bypass the CLI are we getting there you think or how do you see it? Um yes because this is one of probably uh one of the next topics we can maybe go like that later in deeper. Uh now that we have integration between WPCLI and the AI models for example via MCP server the connection is now there. So we can as next in the communicate with our installations via the command line and via AI tools. **[11:00]** >> Interesting. Yeah. In fact, in your presentation, you also mentioned tools like Replet like for speeding and prototyping things, speeding up prototyping basically. Uh >> yes. >> Can you give us a a a concrete example of maybe something you built or you've seen basically that was built in minutes and automated in minutes where would typically would have taken days. >> We can also start with the example I gave on the on the welcome Europe talk. So for example, I had the idea based on **[11:32]** my experiences with the WPCLI workshops and uh talks that it may be easy for the beginners to have like a graphical interface that gives you the output of the the WPCLI commands. So I started creating it but you know like all the programs you have and all the the projects you start something and you never finish it. And then once the AI was like good enough, I was like thinking what actually if the AI could make this example for me so I can highlight this as an use case in my talk. So I used the AI reversal v0 to **[12:03]** generate um the front end of app written in Typescript where people just have the checkboxes and then this will generate um the config and the script you can use for your own automation. And this is like a combination because you can have like different functionality. For example, I had like one button that will start the website with the plugins and the selected template in the press playground instance. So people can like get this as a boiler plate for example to use it for their own projects or when **[12:34]** you want to debug something as a starter case for agency. So it's something actually really nice for the prototyping or I had also different examples not it's related to but for example in the beginning of the year I was making a quite strict keto diet and I was like I want to see which kind of food can I eat and which not. So you know in 15 minutes I had like a app with the food and the color and the nutritious fact and then it helps me to lose in very short time. This is kind of thing that you can use this as an integration in your daily **[13:05]** work and automate or create tools or helpers for everything what you want much more faster in >> interesting. Uh yeah defin I I've seen as well a few examples where people are using AI for um personal use. Actually I was listening to a podcast lately and this person was talking on how they use AI for the children's pocket money. So they have a number of chores. They give them a value basically and every week it calculates okay which chores have you done? How many hours and kind of like **[13:36]** calculate the pocket money without having any discussion of why and what. So like this here you've done these many hours you've done the dishes. You've done this. So this is what this is your pocket money for this week. And yeah with with things like replet basically you can spin up something like that within maximum 1 hour right I mean >> it's it's really fast and especially now that tools like replet also have the functionality to have the integration for the AI agents there's basically no limit you can create now bots for Slack for telegram for you know other tools **[14:07]** and integrations so it's like it's getting the possibility for automate automation is like incredibly increasing for everything what is connected in our in our world. >> Interesting. And as a WordPress developer, you and also like anyone anyone who develops plug-in especially if you're still a small team typically as a developer you end up doing support yourself. So do you see like AI helping with with with support for example I don't know like setting up cuz when you have customers is very **[14:38]** normal you are helping customers who have problems with your plug-in but every customer is different because in one one website your plugin is running alongside plugins X and Y on the other website is running alongside plugins A and B for example. So >> exactly >> do do you see like AI helping also like with support in general like reproducing issues and stuff like that? >> Yes, absolutely. I see it directly also my own support team and it's really great to see if you make the usage correct what kind of uh return you can **[15:09]** get and it's actually really nice. So for example in support you have always different problems like the context that the people are not describing uh that you can't reproduce some issues and for these kind of things you can sometimes use it to create like helper tools or maybe uh scripts for database for example to analyze things and give you maybe like a first confirmation for a suspicion what you have about an issue and you can solve it much more faster. >> Interesting. Do you see also AI maybe um **[15:41]** being used maybe as well like analyzing debug logs or stuff like that like doing some sort of debugging or >> Yes, I already started that uh doing it quite actually long time ago and I had just had recently a case like two weeks ago where a staging site for a client keep crashing uh we saw a fatal error in one of our plug-in streams and I was like okay I can't see what's going on I don't have sage access I have to try the old school way like digging deeper and **[16:11]** then I uh just had like the error log a suspicion and then I started to just team up with the AI to really analyze the locks and then we went over the code what might happen and then I just basically found some broken attachment meta fields and AI helped me to identify it to write the correct script to delete the 57 uh affected u m entries And it was perfectly fine and solved in very short time. And this kind of usage is **[16:42]** actually maybe the kind of usage outside of the hype because you can follow the hype although you really use it for your own purpose on something that is really useful that's solving a problem. The client was very happy to identify and he tell me that he would never think that this might be the issue and for something like this AI is is working pretty well. >> Interesting. It's it's funny because like people are kind of like it depends whom but many people are are either afraid of AI. It's first of all it's very important to point out that there's **[17:12]** difference between of course using AI blindly and using AI as a tool to help you. So >> for for many support people AI might be kind of like overwhelming. If you had to give like a few tips like from where should they start or which is like the most basic implementation and use of AI in support so they can start using it that way and then start learning on it like how from where should they start kind of >> yeah um what works pretty well is uh analyzing locks that is quite good um **[17:45]** maybe creating also workarounds PHP workarounds if they're needed but of course always test them first in a staging site and show that everything is fine Don't blindly trust. Don't trust because in the sense of hallucination, it might invent functions or commands that even don't exist. So you you need to know what you are doing. You just try to do it faster. You know, you're not blindly trusted and take it over. You have to know what actually is real and what not. Otherwise, you can get in serious issues and you might break your site. So this is something also to keep **[18:16]** in mind. I recently read a a quote and I really liked it because it say AI is really useful for the people who can solve actually without AI and that's actually on the point because if you know what you are doing it's just another tool in your toolbox but it's not the solution for everything. >> It makes sense. In fact uh a few episodes ago what was his name? we had someone who's building a plug-in completely with AI and this is what was saying because of course in the community you get a lot of push back **[18:47]** like oh we still need developers some people who are it's almost like there are two extremes people who are like full AI and people who are against AI and that is exactly what he was explaining now it's not just about writing cap prompt getting code copy and paste and shipping it it's so you still need to understand what's happening why and what and of course as you said it can hallucinate so it's good to at least have a good idea from it but ju just to confirm so analyzing blocks but then of course um you are also uploading the code of the **[19:17]** plug-in right to to so it can make a context between okay this is what I'm seeing in the locks and this where it's code right or it's more >> yeah you can sometimes uh like for example the st trace but if you have a line of code from your own plug-in to say um make identification like a type error or whatever then it's also helpful to analyze it and then dig deeper until you might see without the AI what is the issue because you just make like the connecting of the patterns and this helps also in in support to really see like what's going on because sometimes **[19:49]** the error is not let's say the error might is caused in your plug-in but maybe your plug-in is not the root cause of it. It's maybe like another plug-in using the same functionality or the same function and then you have a conflict but if one of them is off deactivated you might see the error only in your own code. So for these kind of things it's actually pretty helpful. >> Yeah. In fact I think that's one of the biggest headaches usually right. I mean like from support from our team that's what we see as well. Um when as you're saying when the pro the source of the **[20:20]** issue is not exactly your plug-in because of something else your plugin is is is spitting out some errors but it becomes quite complex right to kind of like try >> exactly this >> and the of course helps you speed up these type of processes. Um earlier in fact you said like we might dive deeper because you mentioned yeah like kind of like almost bypassing WP CLI. Uh and of course yeah like AI agents are a thing now and we see integrations between AI agents via MCP servers and running commands and making changes. Uh **[20:53]** just to get a brief idea what would that look like in a WordPress context like having AI agents MCP running and stuff like that. Um there are many possibilities right now because we having more different tools and integrations coming but maybe let's before we dig into the WordPress context maybe let's see it more basic that most people can follow it for example we have a service a website like hrefs for SEO anal analysis and we have a AI tool like **[21:26]** for example cloud which is the LLM and what they for example now offer href gives you the possibility to has an MCP server and then cloud can connect with this together. So you have MCP speaking to cloud from the HF website and then you can ask the AI things about your specific data what they have listed in their platform. That's maybe like for the basic understanding how this is working. And then from for the WordPress context, this is all now a little bit changing because in WordPress we have **[21:56]** now many different integrations and tools and we need servers to communicate with WPLI. We need servers to communicate with for example um the website itself. Yesterday I saw a new tool that can communicate with the plug-in repository. So you can ask specific uh questions like is there existing a plug-in what do this and this with identical code like mine to really see if there's a niche uh to develop something new. It's also like a really **[22:26]** interesting use case to develop something for WordPress in that way. And basically what with WordPress you would allow is to communicate the AI with WordPress with your own data. uh give me an overview for my orders for the last 24 hours for example. This is something what you can ask in a natural human language. Uh give me the sales data for example. Uh which kind of users registered in the last week. uh all of these kind of things you can ask the AI **[22:56]** even >> for those who have concerns especially as you said like give me the the sales for the last 24 hours or what was the trend for the last sales for the last few weeks how concerned or not should people be about because of course if you give access to AI AI agent it's reading your data >> how concerned you have their data >> the the biggest problem now what all the tools are trying to solve is like the permission and the capabilities to really see what is allowed to read and **[23:26]** what is allowed to write. And that's right now one of the biggest problem because if you just for example install this Href MCP server, you have to give permission for everything. And yeah, that's right now it's still a little bit like weird. And I also don't fully trust everything yet. Uh but that's most likely the way how it will go. And there are coming now also new protocols which looks even more scared like for example a new protocol that allow purchasing products directly from the AI. Of course I would not enter my credit card data there but you know we we also were **[23:58]** wondering many years ago if we might never I don't know access a website from a mobile device you know this was also things change. >> Yeah it's yeah it's it's a bit it's a bit especially when it comes to data. Do you think like the type of access uh an AI agent has is it something that should be fixed in AI or in WordPress? The reason why I'm asking this is because when you speak to people especially the security people who are who work in the software industry but outside WordPress they always kind of like look down on **[24:29]** WordPress simply because of the structure the way it works because right now for example if you look at Windows or Linux when you install a software you you actually can specify what type of access it gets to the OS with which APIs it can interact and know in WordPress is a bit different I understand it's an application of course but once you install a plugin it has full access kind of I think so. And this ties in like with this question like as well as AI. Do you think it's something that should be kind of like added in AI or something that maybe we should start looking to get it from the WordPress point of view **[25:00]** and see if we can fix something there? I I I would personally prefer it from the from the WordPress point because I want to have the control over the data and that's most likely one of the main reasons we are actually using WordPress because we want to have the control what's happening and who can get information you know if let's say if I don't want that people can get my user ID I will block my rest API because I can't you know I have full control of everything if another platform want that the rest API is open then okay I don't have to use it but the kind of data **[25:31]** liberation for this is WordPress we should control what we want to give people access and another AI agent or another bot is something what I can block out if I don't want maybe specific countries or specific companies I don't want to have my information I can control what I want to block >> interesting of course I understand your point um I'm not expecting a solution but if you had to kind of like envision a solution for this like giving an AI agents or or something automated access to your WordPress through the rest API h **[26:04]** how do you see it's like a solution where you can control which uh yeah which parts of the data or which parts of the rest API can access which one end points for example and stuff like that >> yeah I think it's right right now it's still a little bit early because most of the permission right now is handled on the specific MCP servers that are making the connection so we don't have yet full control over that but I really hope that maybe the AI is changing in the way that it's something what The end users can decide the owners of the platforms to **[26:35]** see what they want to give access. I can of course now go to cloud and revoke access for writing of reading specific information. But yeah, it's still not really clear. You know, you need to know the exact endpoints. You need to know maybe even in some kind of functional language to really understand what you're giving for capabilities to your system and what you allowing. It's a bit too technical maybe yet. >> It is. Yes. Yes. In fact, yeah, automation kind of also introduces a **[27:06]** number of risks. So, for example, if you spin up an entire website automatically or 100 websites, you can also unfortunately must produce broken or insecure websites. um or like the same with AI agents giving them access to your data like what safeguards should should there be you think or are there any safeguards already kind of what is there something that users can already use and make and benefit from? >> Yeah, of course it should absolutely not replace the security best practice. You **[27:36]** should be really critic. But especially for example, let's say like a website. Many people spin up a website anyway via the hosting. They have already like a basic security like a basic platform running that is taking care for one specific point because I don't think so that the people who don't know anything about the best practice will now rent a digital ocean server, spin up a server from scratch and then don't make any security hardening. That's probably like really uncommon that people will do that that people **[28:07]** will know what you do. So I can follow some kind of an automation via AI or via scripting or with WPCLI whatever. Uh but I most likely will not have they really risk because I just follow something that I would do manually. So why should I have more security issues if I just automate my own steps, you know, my own knowledge, my own steps, my own security security functions. I just replicate this in a way that it's faster. I'm not giving it completely away to something. **[28:40]** >> Interesting. Interesting. Um, this is all interesting and of course there are a lot of opportunities here when it comes to AI. However, my concern because ID people like this myself like many unfortunately many website owners don't even know who their host is or what FTP means or or or SSH or all these things. um to avoid making certain mistakes and just running away and cuz AI is a bit like a like like a double-edged sword, you know, like it can be used for good things and also bad things to avoid **[29:10]** making like miss certain mistakes. How from where do you recommend people should get started especially people who are almost they are running a website they literally know about cenel that's all and and or maybe they just know about their login page in WordPress from where if someone says from where should they start to get an idea of of what's available out there what they can do and and etc get informed >> yeah that's actually a really good point because it would be great if that kind **[29:40]** of people would not have to worry about that let's say for example why is Shopify is so successful because you don't have to worry about a coding language version, FTP access, staging sites. It's something what you just have to not worry about. You log in from a mobile app and you control your business directly from the interface from the app. And that's great. And I I see it a little bit in WordPress that maybe in the future of automation, something like this has to be more invisibly. Like for example, instead of asking to run people **[30:11]** a script via SSH or whatever, uh the hosting platform maybe can integrate this. Let's say let's I mentioned before the staging sites. If a web host is offering staging, I already see this as a form of automation. You're saving your end client, the hosting client, time and knowledge to spin up a new a new installation for example. That's that's great. That's like a a functionality that is really involved good in the last years that people can follow a best practice like security uh having different sides for production **[30:42]** development uh for testing to have like different separations and that's maybe the beauty now in coming in in the AI that we might automate this all a little bit better. >> So do you actually see that's quite interesting. So do you actually see web hosts like the web host having a web host being fully with agents and and and similar things and solutions. Do you think it can be fully automated so people don't have as you said to worry about c panel or create like they can imagine you pay for a host account and **[31:14]** all you get is a is a prompt basically like okay build this website please install this theme or please add this please give access to the developer. Do you think we will actually we can get there and so people just have to actually write and don't have to know about zip and ssh and all these stuff. >> Yeah, I mean we already see like the first integrations for example from birdpress.com from the hosted version. They have already like an AI chat what you can use to help spinning up a new site based on I need this functionality, I need this **[31:44]** plug-in and then it's even creating you the design in a way. So yeah, that's definitely will come more and more and the web host definitely also will start to integrate this. It's like you might not have to worry about anymore what is h happening behind the curtains because you're just getting the entry side. You have a site running a functionality running and everything which is too technical might be uh in the hosting or maybe even in other services. >> Interesting. Do you think that makes life easier for WordPress developers uh **[32:17]** or or harder because of course if you look at the web host you are making it way easier for example because you just have a prompt however like when there are problems then like who's going to to deal with the developers okay which plugins how how how do you think this would work >> that will definitely will get more difficult because who really takes on the responsibility but of course if you're running a website on a platform from your host most likely the support from the host is taking over that step. But if you do it for yourself with a tool maybe you find on GitHub or you **[32:48]** don't have control of it then of course it will really get difficult. But I see right now more and more that automations are coming into our daily workflows and I see it really nice how the things are changing. I can give for example one really nice example is a new service what we created at on the go systems. It's called the PTC, the private translation cloud. And you as somebody who maintain a lot of plugins, you know probably the struggle uh about the translation. And we had the same problem **[33:19]** that we start creating many many different uh plugins and always when you have a new version you have a problem to uh get in touch with the project manager get in touch with the translator and that back and forth is actually blocking the time what you should invest in developing the solutions for your clients. So what we did also now is we created a service that is taking away the out what is taking away the translation and integrated in automation itself. So for example what we have in **[33:51]** that service is that you can connect uh your GitHub repository and we are making in the back end in the in the in the back end automated in the background the translation for your plug-in and we are sending it back by a match request. So the only thing what you have to do is check the merge request and see if you agree or not. If you agree, it will be already translated inside of your code. And that's actually something nice because it's happening in the background. You don't have to worry **[34:22]** about it and you just get the end result. It's a little bit maybe following this what I mentioned before with Shopify that the automate automation is coming more in the way that you should not see it anymore. >> It it makes sense. But that also there's the risk of having more users who are not aware of the processes in the background. So of course um you're going to have more website owners which have even less knowledge about the website which it's all good quite frankly because it opens the door for many people and you don't have to be **[34:54]** technical to to to have a website but also I'm presenting the background like much more difficult know then because like you're going to deal with someone who absolutely have no idea what a website is. just knows he or she does they just know the prompt basically and >> exactly in in the way what I mentioned the service the service focus on developers who don't have to worry about to have this back and forth with the people but the end users who for example go to a web host and just want to get something running yeah for them will be difficult because they really need to **[35:25]** know who is the the correct person what is the correct thing they maybe even don't know for example where the domain is hosted if it's from another provider for example let's Does your end client know that you as the developers are using Cloudflare for example? Many people probably even will not know that. So that can be a problem because who is then responsible for updating my records? If I want to switch my email, who is responsible if I want to add like a a verification for Google Analytics for example. So it's yeah it's probably becoming more more difficult **[35:56]** for the people who don't absolutely know nothing about the uh the technology. Yes, it it's almost sounds like there will be a bigger divide as in like people who know the technology will run much faster and those who have absolutely no idea will will struggle even more most probably is >> yeah it's >> interesting it's very interesting and there are a lot of of course of scenarios yeah where can be used it's it's very interesting and and yeah we are definitely because I'm seeing it myself as well like the the rate of **[36:27]** development of some things and stuff we're really going moving really fast in everything in every ction not just development. In fact, WordPress itself as in like the the foundation the WordPress core uh in May 2025 the you press team was announced uh what has been what has been the progress so far let's start from of the team >> um actually they created a really tons of great tools and integrations which we **[36:57]** are now happening to see connecting everything together. So for example, we had like the PHP API client, the AI client. This was like an SDK to uh allow WordPress to talk via an API with the LLM models. That's like one of the most basic we needed for everything that is happening. Uh then there was the abilities API which is like allowing for example a plug-in or a template uh to provide like uh the abilities in a **[37:29]** machine declarable way. This is like then later needed for the MCP server and then especially for MCP the MCP adapter. This is like what bridges the abilities API to the MCP and then it allows like the AI to discover the things what are happening on your site as I mentioned before to get like the user data to get like the list of people who signed up. these kind of things uh it will allow and they have like a lots of different reference integrations and experiments **[38:00]** like for example there's like an AI command for WPLI some sorry some sample services and it's yeah they are like building the blocks for the future and allowing more and more services to use this specified way of AI in WordPress >> nice so basically I'm not sure if it's But yeah, long term it seems that if a plug-in needs to use, you don't have to have different integrations for different plugins. There would be a layer available in **[38:31]** WordPress score and the plug-in can talk to WordPress score to talk to another right kind of thing. >> Yes. Like you don't have to define the connector because there will be already like a basic connector. >> Yeah. And the user the owner of WordPress of that WordPress instance can control okay I want to work with JJT or cloud whatever and then just connects to that to that connector. Yeah, makes sense. >> Exactly. >> And what is the long-term plan of the WordPress AI team? >> Um according to the road map what they have on the make.wordpress.com. So they **[39:03]** said that they want to have like the AI building plots project uh and allow the AI infrastructure for WordPress for future that plugins templates can declare the same and then use it in different way for example uh if they declare what is allowed maybe in future then the AI agents can access that data in the standardized way. That's more like the the long-term goal to define what people in future actually can really do with this kind of services. **[39:35]** >> Interesting. Uh we're talking a lot about AI of course and what developers like the plug-in developers and teams developers can do. Is is there like any place for AI or are there any benefits for the actual users themselves as like the user who just setting up a website buying the plugins and and setting up but they don't have they're not developing things themselves. >> It's actually really interesting because it's true that now in the beginning it was really more focusing on the person **[40:05]** who is creating uh the project the website and not on the end user. But we are now seeing let's say for example there's a new tool from automatic called TX which allows you to generate uh blocks via prompt input. And maybe if you're now let's say you are a food blogger and you just need a specific functionality to have like a button where you add a link and have an icon. Maybe you need not anymore the developer to create that for you. You can do it now yourself. But of course that people **[40:36]** will later struggle if they want to modify it. they will probably start again from scratch and start over with new code, you know. And it's true that we didn't focus yet on the end users. We focused more on the developers. >> Yeah. on the creators but as you said like something like TX is quite handy because sometimes >> uh maybe as you said that's one of the reasons why Shopify is very successful in some some areas because you don't need a developer and when it comes to WordPress even if you have some basic understanding of HTML whatever if you're **[41:07]** running an e-commerce store for example membership website oh I need this button now I have to go back to developer go to all the back and forth you know it's not just about money it's also about the time so you have to go through a process when it's readily available, you can just it's instant. So when you have the need, you can you can be more productive. And of course, when you have something that is instantly configurable, you're going to choose that one above something else, right? >> Exactly. Or if you just need a small functionality promoy for these people it will be already enough because they have **[41:38]** like a a starter point and what about maybe if these people buy the starter point they are starting to learn the block development for example and starting to convert into technical people because they have now something that allows them to really get a fast result get the source code and they can maybe even see what is happening. So if you have some basic PHP knowledge, maybe this is not a missing pattern to let the people really dig deeper, you know, they can use it and learn from it and then maybe just uh uh modify the **[42:10]** functionality themselves. Yeah, indeed. In fact, the person which I mentioned earlier, he's called Navitz, I remember his name, he has developed a plug-in completely with AI and he was explaining the process. He was on our podcast, one of the few episodes, one of the previous episodes and that is what he said. He has of course he knows like the logic of things but he was never a developer and now that he's been doing this for almost a year. Yeah AI helped him become actually like a developer because now he's understanding more and more every day the code if there are **[42:40]** problems what he needs to troubleshoot. So so yeah he he actually >> he's learning from using AI as well which is quite interesting. It's it's yeah it's amazing. Uh apart from the WordPress AI team, have you seen anything else interesting lately in the WordPress ecosystem like related to AI and automation? Um as I mentioned of course the delux if you didn't check it out I really recommend you to do it and what I recently played around which is really really nice uh cloudy code running in the command line and you're **[43:12]** developing for example a plug-in or your custom templates via cursor and in this combination for example you can combine it with the WordPress studio and it's a pretty neat development environment where you have like the wipe coding pass let's say inside of the command line in the code editor. We know that before from uh the GitHub uh the copilot for Microsoft for example but now with cloud code I really feel it uh much more simpler for the people to really focus **[43:43]** on the coding part and have this in the editor together with WordPress that's actually a nice tool >> interesting very interesting and of course you focus mostly on support but um there's a lot of overlapping between support and QA usually Like do you think that uh definitely there's some tools which already which what applies for support also applies for QA but do you do you see like AI also being used more and more with QA and helping in certain automating certain tests and **[44:14]** certain environments? >> Uh yeah that definitely will happen but it's a bit difficult to answer that because it really depends your organization and how your organization is working. I know plug-in teams that for example never get a site copy and always try to solve cases by text for them maybe they they will maybe go more in the automation that the support are running with AI but other teams for example in my daily work I'm taking a lot of site copies and I have to analyze **[44:45]** something so of course I need tools and workflows to uh make changes in code to test changes so for these kind of things I think let's say by internal tooling uh there's a a big possibility with AI because you can use it to create like internal stuff what you really need let's say I do for example a lot of modifications in the support forum in the way what I want highlighting by colors for example if a client open a ticket with the latest version I give them a colorful username **[45:17]** because then I know that I don't have to check now if the latest version is installed so it helps me already to reduce the possibility issues in the first 5 seconds I open the case and for this kind of things I can really speed up my workflows but by the tools itself it's a really good question I think instead of tools what would really help more is the context we always struggling to get from the client the context about the problem what they have >> yes >> so we need more like uh a way to better **[45:49]** understand what is the issue you know we need a way that they can provide that easier the locks a stack trace, maybe environment details. Once we have that kind of things, we can start to isolate the problems or maybe even see already like what is the issue. If you have your REST API blocked, you know, don't expect that the that the plug-in will maybe work because it's relying on a functionality like REST API or if you want to block specific things by a security plug-in for example happen often. Uh maybe this is one of the reasons why uh it's not working. So we **[46:21]** we always need the context. But I think we are moving with this a little bit in the right direction. As I mentioned before, staging sites are a really good way uh to have like an overview for the supporter to see what's going on. I can safely get a copy. I don't have to destroy I don't have to risk that I destroy something and more and more uh great tools allowing me and the client to get my copy much faster. For example, there's a great service called InstaWP. we have a duplicate uh WP all in one **[46:52]** migration. So there are a lot of great tools what you can use uh to define your workflows. It's not really let's say a specific tool that is needed. I would say like more it's something in the workflow how to solve that. >> Yeah, it's interesting because in fact good point you mentioning the context because this is one thing that is really troubling sometimes like you receive an email like plugin is not working. It's like okay like from where should we start? you know it's good and in a way you don't blame the user especially if they are not technical they don't even **[47:23]** know what logs are so it's not as like they can say okay the plug-in is not working so let me send them the logs and explain explain to it and hopefully maybe I can ease this process as well no >> exactly probably also in technical support as a support engineer you're teaching people to be technically better I don't know how many thousand people probably started to use staging sites because ask them to to use one or how to activate a debug locks, you know, like getting that kind of information maybe **[47:53]** makes the end client already like a better WordPress user and the next time he has a problem, he's already more confident. So that's also a part of the workflow what can integrate with the client in a way that they grow and the next time once they have the problem they will give everything what you need and you can start directly working on the case because they will remember how you solved it and that's also really helpful. Yes. Yes. No. No. It makes a difference. In fact, even having a staging website, I look at our products, it makes a big difference trying to solve a problem **[48:25]** with emails back and forth and all the text versus we have a saying jig website, give us access. We can reproduce the issue right away. That makes life many times easier. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. You you you've said that uh AI is here to assist and not replace people. So for the support people, QA developers and agent agencies listening today, what's the right mindset to adopt so they drive like in this AI and automation area? >> Yeah. Um I think the most important to **[48:55]** really see the AI more like a colleague in your team and not a competition competitor. So if you whenever you are in support in development QA or testing use it uh to speed up the routines what you do uh but not see like the value as something that you give something lower value. AI will actually help to give you a better value because you can write code faster. You can answer something better and of course you have as the **[49:27]** person solving the problem you have the empathy to communicate this with the product manager with the CEO the founder the end clients you know you can communicate this with the stakeholders and try to find like this global picture and they will not be able to to replace it. it will not make decisions you know it will just follow your orders what you give like a computer so I don't think so that AI will be able to to replace that so it will speed up things in the routine around it but not **[49:59]** in the total that you say it will develop all the code for you it make all the testing for you that will most likely not not happen now in the in the next years I guess maybe in future we don't know but if this happen in future we might have other problems to solve and not uh what's happening in your in your >> no it's a very good way of explaining things because as you said unfortunately some people look at AI as a solution and some people see as a as an enemy for example if you look at companies who use for example chatbot for support where **[50:29]** usually they had I don't know a team of 20 30 people now they have one person only so people might see that as an enemy however yes if you if you are smart enough as well and ready to learn and automate more it's a question as you said like discussing with the whole team and and the director and explaining like okay we can do this and this and move faster rather than replacing people right because it's a tool at the end of the day >> yes and especially for for support but actually is few able uh of course the is now solving the easy tickets documentation how to uh but now when **[51:02]** more people are using AI to have more custom code more custom environments actually the work is getting more difficult because now what is coming to you is the stuff what the AI source and then you need to have a really good trained team that can understand the code uh migrations, debugging, you know, like things with XDbug is now basically the new routine for somebody working in WordPress support because the cases are more difficult and you really have to debug otherwise you don't get to the **[51:33]** point of the issues. So I see it as I mentioned a colleague who do the things but in the other hand it's maybe also like my personal junior developer who can do the boring let's say 30% while I focus on the more interesting 70%. Yeah, indeed. In fact, nowadays I started working in IT 20, yeah, like 24 25 years ago. And yeah, back then support engineers were more like some of them were a bit like script kitties, but **[52:04]** yeah, most of them didn't know anything in terms of development. Nowadays, many support engineers actually are almost like developers, right? They need certain knowledge. >> Yes. And I can just say it in our team. Basically nearly everybody working as an engineer in WordPress with us have like some kind of background in WordPress development. We have people who worked before on codable for example. It's like you know creating thousands of different custom solutions to people. These people really I see them that they actually **[52:35]** working much better now with AI because they have a new sense of creativity now. They can feel more motivated by finding a solution in the most fastest way. but also in the most beautiful way and before it's not like sending a link and that's the solution because they really dig now deeper to find the best possible way how to solve an issue. >> Interesting. So yeah, so there is hope. So actually instead of I would say instead of blaming AI kind of like blame yourself and make sure at least you you **[53:07]** are aware of the tools and uh make the best out of them and keep yourself informed and educated and up to date, right? Because if you do that then of course you won't be replaced. >> Exactly. If you follow that pattern that you have the control about what happened with the AI, you have the control what is the output you know never blindly trust it analyze it if it's correct is the hallucination or whatever if you follow that and then you use it creatively for solve the problems for create small helper tools it as I **[53:38]** mentioned before it's just another tool in your tool belt then for that if the people follow that way it most likely bringing you the biggest success because then you have everything what you need to get technically better and then if you for example now never use the command line if you uh follow my tip to WP plug-in install if you follow that step maybe in four two three months you might already have that knowledge for the command line to be a better WordPress engineer that's that's the basic **[54:08]** >> yeah you need to start from somewhere thank you thank you very much Marcel before we close this episode is there something we forgot to mention you'd like to point out? >> Uh, no. I think we are quite we have covered everything I think. >> Thanks. And where people can find you, your business website URL or something you want to share? >> Uh, you can find me with my name tanish.com on my personal blog where a little bit writing about uh support topics and **[54:40]** debugging and AI automations. And of course I am linkin or in blue sky. >> Thanks a lot. Thanks Mar for coming. Thanks for sharing all your knowledge. It was very interesting. >> Thanks for having great >> and thanks of course for for putting this lay of hope because as I said unfortunately with AI you have it's almost like there's this division between people like who are full AI and people who are hating it. So yeah it's it's like if you and as you said like you just need to do a bit of effort yourself, learn a bit more, read a bit more and and and you'll get there. **[55:11]** Thanks Marca. Thank you very much. Thank you everyone. Thanks. Thanks everyone for listening. Uh please don't forget to like and subscribe and we'll see you next Thursday. Thanks. Thank you Marcel. Thanks. >> Thank you Rob. Byebye.