BISHOP MARIANN BUDDE: We Can Be Brave  ## Metadata - Author: [[Lives Well Lived]] - Full Title: BISHOP MARIANN BUDDE: We Can Be Brave - Category: #podcasts - URL: https://share.snipd.com/episode/a2c39e57-8d77-4ed2-ab8a-cd3d53bc9420 ## Document Notes ## Highlights - **Public Plea For Vulnerable People** - Bishop Mariann Edgar Budde publicly pleaded for mercy toward migrants, LGBTQ children, and low-wage workers during President Trump's post-inaugural service. - She named specific vulnerable groups and urged compassion from the nation's leader. Transcript: Bishop Mariann Edgar Budde Let me make one final plea, Mr. President. Millions have put their trust in you. And as you told the nation yesterday, you have felt the providential hand of a loving God. In the name of our God, I ask you to have mercy upon the people in our country who are scared now. Gay, lesbian, and transgender children in democratic, republican, and independent families, some who fear for their lives. And the people, the people who pick our crops and clean our office buildings, who labor in poultry farms and meatpacking plants, who wash the dishes after we eat in restaurants and work The night shifts in hospitals. They may not be citizens or have the proper documentation, but the vast majority of immigrants are not criminals. They pay taxes and are good neighbors. They are faithful members of our churches and mosques, synagogues, wadara, and temples. I ask you to have mercy, Mr. President, on those in our communities whose children fear that their parents will be taken away, and that you help those who are fleeing war zones and persecution in their own lands To find compassion and welcome here. Our God teaches us that we are to be merciful to the stranger, for we were all once strangers in this land. ([Time 0:06:12](https://share.snipd.com/snip/c936ba73-ad73-4b4d-9622-c3b3a7322bc9)) - **Bravery Is Learned Through Practice** - Budde argues bravery is learned through repeated choices in decisive, often everyday, moments across life. - She frames courage as a practice rooted in awareness, context, and cumulative learning. Transcript: Bishop Mariann Edgar Budde Thank you. Thank you both for allowing me to join you in conversation today. I had originally written the book for adults. It came out several years ago and was delighted to have the opportunity to adapt it for young readers. The entire book is based on the thesis that we learn to be brave, that it is part of the human experience starting when we're very to be young, and that life presents us with moments, moments Of decision when we know that we are facing something unknown. We're aware that we are facing into something we've never done before or that has risk for us cost in some way for us and often for those around us and it is in those moments and what happens To us what leads up to them and what we learned from them that the learning process happens over the course of our lives. And I wanted to demonstrate the breadth of those experiences. They're not just one kind. They happen for all of us. It's a universal human experience rooted in our evolution. And I loved the opportunity to share that with readers of all ages, but particularly young people who are facing so many challenges across the world. ([Time 0:08:40](https://share.snipd.com/snip/3714192e-b6ae-45f4-bfdc-946cce98836d)) - **Sustained Courage Of Caregiving** - Budde recounts her sister Christine caring daily for her terminally ill husband, choosing love despite anger and exhaustion. - She highlights the quiet, sustained courage of daily caregiving rather than headline-making acts. Transcript: Bishop Mariann Edgar Budde That is a very difficult question. And the reason why is because each moment represents very different kinds of bravery. My goodness. The story that came to my mind, right as you said that, is the story of my sister. And how when her husband was diagnosed with terminal cancer, she chose time and time again through the year, the last year of his life, to walk beside him and completely rearrange her Life in order to care for him. And it wasn't something she was planning on doing. It wasn't something that either one of them had chosen. She was humbled and angered sometimes by what life was demanding of her then. But and I walked with her, we would or we talked on the phone because we were miles away, different states in this country. But I was so moved by her daily choice to choose love and even to stand by her husband when he was making choices that she didn't agree with, but that she knew he needed to make. The reason I mentioned that one in particular, although I could pull a 40 out of the book, is it was the dailiness of it, you know, every day. And she wasn't making headlines, you know, she wasn't on the front pages of the newspaper. Very few people apart from those closest to her knew what she was doing. But it was of such courage and rooted in love. Day after day after day, she chose love. ([Time 0:11:20](https://share.snipd.com/snip/6ca86dd7-363d-411c-b06a-2ded916c1790)) - **Direct Courage Toward Love** - Align your courage with love to ensure it produces healing rather than harm. - Evaluate motivations because courage alone is morally neutral in outcome. Transcript: Bishop Mariann Edgar Budde Well, you know, one can be brave for all sorts of motivations, truly. And so I would say, in that sense, courage is neutral in terms of its outcome. It can go toward the good or it can go toward great harm. And so as I think about what constitutes a meaningful life, a purposeful life, I am a woman of faith, and so I am rooted in the Christian doctrines, but it's not unique to Christianity, That love is in fact the most powerful transformative power in the world. And so if we can align our courage in service of love, we are contributing, participating in the goodness of the world and the healing of others in the world. And so I want to lean into that side of courage and its outcome. ([Time 0:13:28](https://share.snipd.com/snip/46860902-4c95-437e-abd1-313547f827a4)) - **Many Dimensions Of Love** - Budde distinguishes multiple forms of love: intimate, familial, communal, and aspirational toward strangers. - She says ethical traditions call us to expand our capacity to love beyond close ties. Transcript: Bishop Mariann Edgar Budde In the end, I would suggest that all motivation for good in the world has its core in love. But it's not the same kind of love. I mean, there are many dimensions of love. There is love that is between two people in an intimate relationship. There is the love of family. There is the love of community and country. And I think all the great traditions of aspirational traditions of humankind would point us in the direction of greater and greater capacity for love for people that we don't know. ([Time 0:14:56](https://share.snipd.com/snip/9e0ffae1-4654-4c75-a73b-5d49dde3f8eb)) - **Treat Love As A Practice** - Practice love as a commitment, not only as an emotion, so you act consistently even when feelings fade. - Make love a habit through repeated, sometimes costly, actions. Transcript: Kasia de Lazari Radek Do you understand love more as an emotion or rather as a certain practice towards certain aims? It's a good question, a very good question. Bishop Mariann Edgar Budde I think they're both. But if we relied on our feelings alone, we would act loving when we felt like it. And that would not be consistent because emotions come and go. And so mature love evolves to a practice and a commitment to be a loving person, regardless of the circumstance or how one is treated in response, or how one feels on a given day. And that's true. ([Time 0:16:10](https://share.snipd.com/snip/84ce3a46-b575-4733-94af-f75c954cf21a)) - **A Counter-Narrative Of Mercy** - Budde sees her role as offering a counter-narrative rooted in mercy, dignity, and truth amid government actions she calls uncompassionate. - She combines speech and protective action for threatened people and institutions. Transcript: Bishop Mariann Edgar Budde You're absolutely accurate that the decisions or the actions of this government could not be defined with words such as mercy and compassion. The opposite would be the case. And so I feel a responsibility and vocation to continually present an alternative worldview in which mercy and justice and kindness and dignity, treating even those with whom we vehemently Disagree, to treat them with dignity, that's the message that I seek to bring into the world, both in speech and in action. And I'm not alone. And one of the reasons I'm talking to you is that the response globally has been wanting more of this, wanting more conversations like this. And so that says to me, we are a counter-narrative in a time when the political power in our country is dominated by another worldview. And so I will continue to do that. I also feel my role is to help protect as much as I can with other people, the people and institutions that are under attack right now. There's a lot that is being dismantled and destroyed. ([Time 0:20:00](https://share.snipd.com/snip/9e1c9d97-6a0a-4665-99cb-2619e15120d9)) - **Change Minds By Building Relationships** - Change minds through relationships and lived experience rather than argument alone; cultivate tipping points. - Focus on building momentum with a few converts, then expand to shift norms. Transcript: Bishop Mariann Edgar Budde And so I asked them to share with me what they thought. And two of them spoke up. And then I realized, you know, there's probably another way to do this. So I had to relinquish some of my rightness. You know, I was right about this and let their point of view in and just sit with it for a moment and then come to a different understanding. So it's a small example, but it's a way of thinking in the world that says, I need to open my mind to allow another perspective to change my understanding. I think it's a really important skill to cultivate in a polarized society, because we tend to see one another in caricatures, as opposed to human beings, and to truly understand another Point of view. So I'll do that. I hope that answers your question. In terms of when I think I've been brave, I highlight several times in the book where I felt on the precipice of something very frightening or demanding or compelling to me and needing To cross over that threshold. I have experiences from when I was quite young, in my teenage years, where I left one whole way of living my life and moving into another. And other times when I felt that the courageous thing to do was not to go off and do something dramatic, but to stay where I was, and to go deeper in the commitments that were before me. So not to be the one making the great statement, not being the one to go out and lead some great cause, but to stay and help raise my family or stay and help care for my aging mother. And so there are times when life was asking me to do something difficult or costly, and God was seemingly saying to me, this is, will you do this? Or can you do this? So I've internalized the feelings and the sensations that go with that experience, but they play themselves in different ways. Can I go back to the social change thing, because I think that's also, I mean, I write about that in one of my chapters, because I spent a lot of time, I lead communities, I lead religious Communities, both small and now larger ones. And so how to, as you were saying, how to take an idea like being a vegetarian or caring for animals or whatever, not smoking in public, things that have changed in my lifetime, the ordination Of women, which was not allowed when I was born in my church, the full inclusion of gay and lesbian people. That was a whole process that we went through. And there does seem to be a process that communities go through. And to know something about those pivotal moments of change and the influence that people have at different junctures is a very important thing for us to keep in mind right now, particularly Because we don't need to change everybody's mind to shift directions or to start something new, but to get a few of us and then a few more and to find that elusive tipping point when momentum Shifts in a different direction. I think that's also brave. ([Time 0:25:11](https://share.snipd.com/snip/d470e1cf-41a5-4c35-8490-573acacbe5b2)) - **Exhaustion Dulls Political Outrage** - Budde calls the Trump administration's foreign-aid cuts “devastating and unconscionable” and explains public exhaustion reduces visible outrage. - She links rapid policy dismantling to grief and difficulty coordinating effective responses. Transcript: Bishop Mariann Edgar Budde Devastating and unconscionable. You know, are we doing enough? Of course not. I think it's important to understand when you think about why hasn't there been more outrage. First of all, a significant portion of the country has always been troubled and perplexed by the amount of money that has gone to other countries when there's so much poverty and struggle At home. And so that's just a part of our national fabric. And just a very lively conversation nationally has been forced for our entire existence. And what the Trump administration did was exploit that and also dishonestly portray the, as you said, the impact of the reductions. And so as so many other things were happening at the same time, I don't know how to describe for you how exhausting it is to have so much being stripped away so quickly on so many fronts. It is challenging to know how and when to protest or to respond when so many things are being dismantled at the same time. And so I can understand the devastation and the critique internationally. It's happening nationally as well. So many significant life-sustaining initiatives in this country have been slashed. The borders have been essentially closed. And so people who are seeking, desperately seeking safety in a land that is not ravaged by war or economic devastation are being turned away. And as you know, people are being taken from the streets now. I mean, it's very difficult to hold it all and know how to effectively respond. There's a lot of grief right now and some disorientation. ([Time 0:30:25](https://share.snipd.com/snip/0c079437-3bfd-49be-a768-2a7ef7dcba24)) - **Do Something, Start Small** - Support one another and act where you can: small acts of love matter and courage is contagious. - Remember "we can't all do everything, but we can all do something." Transcript: Bishop Mariann Edgar Budde That's, it takes courage, I believe is, is contagious. Love is contagious. We need one another. And so there is tremendous solidarity among people who are working to support migrants in our communities. There's tremendous solidarity in the efforts to keep our public institutions safe and the people who serve them. We need all the spiritual resources that our faith traditions can provide for us. We need the examples. We need to remember our history and that this is not the first time. It's not the first time in our country that we have experienced this kind of complete swing in a direction that has caused so much harm. So it's a matter of digging deep inside, trusting that there is a spirit of goodness in the world that we can draw upon when our own reserves are low, and then the solidarity and inspiration That we draw from one another. And I often say to people, you know, we can't all do everything, but we can all do something. And there is something empowering about small acts of love and kindness. We just remember that we can do these things. And then every once in a while, somebody does something really brave. A law firm will stand up and take on an illegal battle in a way that turns a decision around, or a judge will make a decision, something will happen. And that just like, okay, today wasn't a great day for me, but it was a great day for her. ([Time 0:33:13](https://share.snipd.com/snip/fe3e7b58-9c2f-4bc2-be0b-adf37b917e86)) - **Ambiguity On Assisted Dying** - Budde declines a firm stance on assisted dying, citing unresolved ethical tensions and personal uncertainty. - She emphasizes soul-searching and study before weighing in on complex moral laws. Transcript: Bishop Mariann Edgar Budde Didn't. I was asked to, but I didn't. And the reason I didn't is that I am not clear in my own mind. I have learned not to take positions on everything. I have dear, dear friends who watched their beloved family members die, die horrible deaths and who wanted the assistance that the opportunity to have an assisted death. So I certainly understand and can appreciate that and could imagine myself in that situation. And there are reasons that give me pause as well, having to do with the devaluing of human life and what might happen in situations where someone's vulnerability might be compromised For reasons of expediency or depression. So I have to say, I just, I can't take a stand right now. I would need to do more real soul searching and study before I could weigh in responsibly. ([Time 0:36:55](https://share.snipd.com/snip/92025a02-e210-46d6-9929-41f776c71575)) - **Stand Firm And Kneel To Humanity** - Cultivate inner clarity so you can stand firm without defensiveness and remain curious about others' humanity. - Set boundaries where others' beliefs harm people, while respecting their dignity. Transcript: Bishop Mariann Edgar Budde It's very important. First of all, and it's related to the previous question, I think part of the process is coming to internal clarity oneself, right? And that takes time. And the more one spends really working toward that clarity and having a grounded, solid position that may not be perfect, it may have flaws, you may at some point come to a different understanding Or a more sophisticated understanding. But in that moment, you are persuaded that this is a position that you would hold. You would stand firm to it. So when that happens inside, I think one of the side effects of it is that you are less defensive when people attack it, right? Because the attacks won't necessarily change your mind, right? So I think there is a freedom that comes when you are not defensive, but genuinely curious, that allows a certain amount of curiosity and an ability never to lose sight of the inherent Dignity of the human being who opposes your point of view. The former presiding bishop of our church said it's being able to stand and to kneel at the same time. And what he meant by that was to stand firm to your convictions, but to kneel before the humanity of another person. And so there is that, and a curiosity. How is it that you came to the position you hold? How is it, even if we cannot have that kind of conversation, even if it becomes quite tense to acknowledge, I'm standing here. This is where I am. This is not easy. I don't reach that all the time. I'm human. But it is something to aspire to. And I can tell when I get defensive. And it's usually because I'm not entirely clear within myself, or the arguments are threatening to me in a way that I need to work through. And so I pay attention when I respond in anger or when I respond with contempt, which is not the same as saying, I really disagree. I truly disagree with what you are doing. And I respect your right to hold that view. Now, in our church, I can say that. And I can also say, but I cannot allow you to hold that view in a way that would harm other people, right? Because I'm also protecting an institution. So you can have that point of view. But if the exercising of that point of view is harmful to another person, then the boundaries of the behavior is something I need to establish, right? ([Time 0:39:51](https://share.snipd.com/snip/6fa59a00-94e7-4e99-9a03-efd230dd327e)) - **Faith Amid Doubt** - Budde admits to deep doubt about faith but maintains confidence in God and chooses faithful action despite feelings. - She cites a poem: "I believe in the sun... I believe in God, even when God is silent." Transcript: Bishop Mariann Edgar Budde Yes, in the sense that I have, I've had my moments of deep and profound doubt and of despair. And I have also learned that those feelings, they come and they go. So I try to honor them and recognize that their presence does not, I have more confidence in God than I do in my faith in God, if that makes sense. Peter Singer I'm not sure if you could say a little more, because if you doubt whether God exists, then how do you have confidence in God? Bishop Mariann Edgar Budde Faith? Yeah, right, exactly. Well, there's that great passage in the Gospel of Mark where Jesus asks the Father if he has faith, and he says, if he believes, and he says, I believe, help my unbelief. You know, and it's that same, I mean, I would have to shut off my brain to all that is well beyond my understanding if I wanted to live without any doubt at all. There's just so much that I do not understand. And there's so many things that I cannot explain about having faith in a loving God. So I have all of those experiences. And I've learned that I can still continue in a faith. I can choose to live a faithful life even when I don't feel it. And when the feelings come back, I'm grateful for them. But I also don't, I don't need them, if that makes sense. It's like love for another human being. I don't always feel love for someone that I have committed myself to in love. But that doesn't mean that I've stopped loving them. I just don't feel it at the moment. There's a poem that's, I don't know if this is true, but it's believed that the lore is that it was written on one of the concentration camp walls from the Second World War. And I don't know if that's true, but this is the refrain of the poem. It goes, I believe in the sun, even when it's not shining. And I believe in love, even when I don't feel it. And I believe in God, even when God is silent. ([Time 0:42:48](https://share.snipd.com/snip/56fb8f28-2f38-4756-ac4f-45d5f87df5f4)) - **Hope As Committed Action** - Budde defines hope as a resolved commitment to do good regardless of outcomes, not mere wishful thinking. - She says hope motivates action even when evidence suggests likely failure. Transcript: Bishop Mariann Edgar Budde I know many atheists who do. So, I mean, but again, hope as a, not as a wishful thinking that things will get better, but as a resolve to commit oneself to the good, regardless of what happens, right? Regardless of what happens. I mean, we don't know, we don't know if the human species is going to survive the collapse of the, you know, of the ecosystems of this country upon which our life depends because we are So intent, it seems, on destroying them. I mean, we don't know if we're going to rise to this moment or not. And I can't predict that. But I'm going to live on the side of doing what I can and advocating for ways that we do because I don't want to give up just because it doesn't on a given day seem hopeful, right? I'm not willing to do that. ([Time 0:48:18](https://share.snipd.com/snip/9fcdde53-4b5b-44a4-8375-82b21359d4f0))