Behind the Scenes of LearnDash's Accessibility Overhaul, Austin Eastciders Churro

Behind the Scenes of LearnDash's Accessibility Overhaul, Austin Eastciders Churro 🔗 **Source:** [Behind the Scenes of LearnDash's Accessibility Overhaul, Austin Eastciders Churro](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifj4BQAZxTM) > [!note]+ Document Notes > tags: [wordpress, accessibility, learndash, lms] > author: Accessibility Craft Podcast > source: Equalized Digital > reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifj4BQAZxTM > date created: 2025-01-11 09:30 > > # 🏷️ Title: Behind the Scenes of LearnDash's Accessibility Overhaul >  ## 🧰 Action Inbox - [H1] Install accessibility checker early in development process — prevent rework later #accessibility #testing - [H2] Pair accessibility work with feature releases for better storytelling — maintain roadmap value #product-management #accessibility - [H3] Create leadership buy-in by connecting accessibility to business KPIs — support volume, refunds, revenue #business-case #accessibility ## 🧭 Table of Contents - [📝 Summary](#-summary) - [📖 Main Content](#-main-content) - [🗒️ Notes](#️-notes) - [📚 References](#-references) - [🗣️ Paraphrase](#️-paraphrase) - [📰 Newsletter](#-newsletter) - [✅ Action Items](#-action-items) - [🧪 Hypotheses](#-hypotheses) - [📊 Methodology](#-methodology) - [❓ Questions](#-questions) - [🔮 Future Research](#-future-research) - [💡 Implications](#-implications) - [🧠 Learning Styles Assessment](#-learning-styles-assessment) - [📊 Accessibility Assessment](#-accessibility-assessment) - [🌍 DEIB Assessment](#-deib-assessment) - [✅ Logical Validity](#-logical-validity) - [🛡️ DARVO Analysis](#-darvo-analysis) - [🎯 Conclusion](#-conclusion) ### 🔗 References - [Accessibility Craft Podcast](https://accessibilitycraft.com) - [LearnDash Accessibility Statement](https://www.learndash.com/accessibility/) ## 📝 Summary - **What happened**: LearnDash underwent a comprehensive accessibility overhaul in 2025, fixing 77 accessibility issues across 11 releases in 4 months - **Why it matters**: EU accessibility deadline drove company-wide priority shift, resulting in 30% reduction in support tickets and 42% reduction in refunds - **Key stakeholders**: LearnDash product team (5 developers), StellarWP leadership, 150,000 website users, EU compliance requirements - **Risks and tradeoffs**: Had to compromise some user experience (extra clicks) and temporarily disable certain features (matrix sorting questions) for accessibility compliance - **Bottom line**: Accessibility investment delivered measurable business value through reduced support burden and improved user satisfaction ## 📖 Main Content Taylor, former LearnDash Product Owner at StellarWP, shares the behind-the-scenes journey of making one of WordPress's most popular learning management systems accessible. The overhaul was prompted by the looming EU accessibility deadline in June 2025, which finally gave leadership the business case to prioritize accessibility work. The process involved auditing 60+ accessibility issues, categorizing them as "straightforward" or "needs discussion," and implementing fixes across a small team of 4 developers plus a lead engineer. The most challenging aspects included course progression functionality and quiz accessibility, particularly matrix sorting questions which required complete refactoring. The results exceeded expectations: 30% reduction in support ticket volume, 42% reduction in refunds, and positive feedback from developers purchasing the product specifically because of accessibility investments. The team learned to integrate accessibility testing from the beginning and work with accessibility experts rather than trying to solve complex issues independently. ## 🗒️ Notes #### ⏱️ [00:00](https://youtu.be/ifj4BQAZxTM?t=0) — [H1] Podcast Introduction and Beverage Review - Key idea: Accessibility Craft podcast explores accessible websites while reviewing craft beverages - Evidence: "Austin Eastiders churro flavored hard cider" - describes cinnamon and baked good undertones #### ⏱️ [05:30](https://youtu.be/ifj4BQAZxTM?t=330) — [H2] Guest Introduction: Taylor's Background - Key idea: Taylor transitioned from Give WP to LearnDash Product Owner at StellarWP in 2024 - Evidence: "Started out at Give WP in 2018, spoke at several WordCamps about SEO" #### ⏱️ [08:15](https://youtu.be/ifj4BQAZxTM?t=495) — [H1] EU Deadline Prompted Accessibility Priority - Key idea: EU accessibility deadline forced company-wide priority shift on accessibility - Evidence: "That June deadline in 2025 was huge... accessibility isn't seen as revenue driving until leadership made it a priority" #### ⏱️ [12:20](https://youtu.be/ifj4BQAZxTM?t=740) — [H2] Project Timeline and Team Structure - Key idea: 4-month project with split development team approach - Evidence: "Four developers plus a lead... two engineers stayed on accessibility track, other two worked on maintenance or features" #### ⏱️ [15:45](https://youtu.be/ifj4BQAZxTM?t=945) — [H2] Scale and Scope of Work - Key idea: Massive user base with limited development resources - Evidence: "150,000 websites... only like four people strong plus a lead... 77 total line items over 11 releases" #### ⏱️ [18:30](https://youtu.be/ifj4BQAZxTM?t=1110) — [H1] Most Challenging Issues: Course Progression - Key idea: Course progression required fundamental UX changes that users disliked - Evidence: "We got so much backlash... had to add a setting to turn it off with warning 'this is not accessible'" #### ⏱️ [22:10](https://youtu.be/ifj4BQAZxTM?t=1330) — [H2] Matrix Quiz Questions Left Behind - Key idea: Some features were too complex to fix within timeline constraints - Evidence: "Matrix sorting question... drag and drop answers across different lists... would take way too long" #### ⏱️ [25:00](https://youtu.be/ifj4BQAZxTM?t=1500) — [H2] User Impact and Developer Feedback - Key idea: Accessibility work attracted new customers who specifically valued the investment - Evidence: "Getting an email from a developer thanking us... purchased the product because we were doing that work" #### ⏱️ [28:15](https://youtu.be/ifj4BQAZxTM?t=1695) — [H1] Measurable Business Results - Key idea: Dramatic reduction in support burden and refunds - Evidence: "Support volume new tickets went down by 30%... refunds reduced by 42%" #### ⏱️ [32:30](https://youtu.be/ifj4BQAZxTM?t=1950) — [H1] Key Lessons: Accessibility First Approach - Key idea: Team learned to integrate accessibility from the beginning, not retrofit - Evidence: "You shouldn't even be asking me that question... making that a primary product requirement" #### ⏱️ [35:20](https://youtu.be/ifj4BQAZxTM?t=2120) — [H2] Working with Accessibility Experts - Key idea: Developers learned to collaborate with experts rather than struggle alone - Evidence: "They don't have to be the expert... work with the experts and not be afraid to ask questions" #### ⏱️ [38:45](https://youtu.be/ifj4BQAZxTM?t=2325) — [H2] Leadership Buy-in Through Business Case - Key idea: Accessibility needs to be paired with revenue-generating work for leadership support - Evidence: "Getting buy-in requires writing the story... making sure it pairs well with other things" #### ⏱️ [42:00](https://youtu.be/ifj4BQAZxTM?t=2520) — [H2] Personal Website Rebuild with Accessibility Focus - Key idea: Taylor now implements accessibility checking from the beginning of projects - Evidence: "Install the accessibility checker up front and check as you go" #### ⏱️ [48:30](https://youtu.be/ifj4BQAZxTM?t=2910) — [H2] Career Update and WordPress Love Story - Key idea: Taylor moving to hosting company and personal relationship from WordCamp connections - Evidence: "New position at high velocity hosting... WordPress love story, met in 2019 at WordCamp US" ## 📚 References - [Accessibility Craft Podcast](https://accessibilitycraft.com) - [LearnDash Product](https://learndash.com) - [Equalized Digital Accessibility Checker](https://equalizedigital.com/accessibility-checker) - [StellarWP](https://stellarwp.com) ## 🗣️ Paraphrase - LearnDash faced the EU accessibility deadline with 150,000 websites depending on a 4-person development team, forcing a complete accessibility overhaul that initially wasn't seen as revenue-generating work - The most challenging fixes involved course progression and quiz functionality, requiring UI changes that upset existing users and forcing compromise solutions with accessibility warnings - The project delivered unexpected business value with 30% fewer support tickets and 42% fewer refunds, proving accessibility investment has measurable bottom-line impact beyond compliance ## 📰 Newsletter **LearnDash's Accessibility Journey Delivers Surprising Business Results** The team at LearnDash just completed a comprehensive accessibility overhaul that's worth studying for any WordPress product team. What started as EU compliance work turned into a masterclass in accessibility-driven product improvement. **The Challenge**: With 150,000 websites depending on just 4 developers, LearnDash had to fix 77 accessibility issues in 4 months while maintaining their feature roadmap. **Smart Strategy**: They split their dev team - half on accessibility, half on features - and paired releases so each update told a complete story rather than just "accessibility fixes." **Surprising Results**: - 30% reduction in support tickets - 42% reduction in refunds - New customers specifically choosing LearnDash for accessibility investment **Key Takeaway**: The team learned to integrate accessibility testing from day one rather than retrofitting, and to work with accessibility experts rather than struggling alone. For WordPress developers and product teams, this shows how accessibility work can deliver measurable business value beyond compliance requirements. Resources: [Learn WordPress](https://learn.wordpress.org/), [Accessibility Checker](https://equalizedigital.com/accessibility-checker), [WCAG Guidelines](https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/quickref/) ## ✅ Action Items #### WordPress - Accessibility: Integrate accessibility testing early in theme/plugin development cycles - Documentation: Create case study templates showing business impact of accessibility work - Training: Develop accessibility-first development curriculum for WordPress developers - Community: Share accessibility success stories at WordCamps to drive adoption #### OSPO - Policy & Governance: Establish accessibility requirements in contribution guidelines - Developer Support: Provide accessibility consultation and expert connections - Community Engagement: Fund accessibility audits for critical WordPress ecosystem plugins #### Community - Maintainers: Create accessibility roadmap templates and milestone tracking - Contributors: Establish accessibility-first code review processes - Sponsors: Fund accessibility improvements in high-impact plugins and themes ## 🧪 Hypotheses - Accessibility improvements reduce support ticket volume by 20-40% by preventing user confusion and interaction failures - Products that publicly invest in accessibility attract developers and organizations with compliance requirements as new customers - Pairing accessibility fixes with feature releases improves stakeholder perception versus standalone accessibility work - Teams that work with accessibility experts complete remediation 50% faster than those working independently ### 📊 Methodology - Track support ticket volume and categorization before/after accessibility improvements across WordPress products - Survey purchasing decisions for accessibility-focused products versus feature-focused alternatives - Compare development velocity for accessibility projects with and without expert consultation - Measure user retention and satisfaction metrics for products undergoing accessibility overhauls ### ❓ Questions - How can WordPress product teams better estimate accessibility remediation effort and timeline? - What accessibility testing tools and workflows work best for small development teams? - How should product managers balance accessibility debt versus new feature development? ### 🔮 Future Research - Longitudinal study of accessibility investment ROI across WordPress ecosystem - Best practices for accessibility-first development workflows in WordPress - Impact of EU accessibility deadline on WordPress product compliance rates ### 💡 Implications - Practice: Accessibility testing should be integrated into WordPress development workflows from project inception - Policy: WordPress product teams need clear accessibility requirements and expert consultation paths - Education: Product managers need training on business case development for accessibility investment - Funding: Accessibility improvements deliver measurable business value through reduced support costs and improved user satisfaction ### 🧠 Learning Styles Assessment Reading level estimate: 12th grade (Flesch-Kincaid) #### 👀 Visual learners - Present: Podcast format with some visual references to website elements - Improve: Screenshots of accessibility fixes, before/after interface comparisons, accessibility audit spreadsheet examples #### 🔊 Aural learners - Present: Full audio podcast with detailed verbal explanations - Improve: Could benefit from shorter audio summaries of key findings #### 🗣️ Verbal learners - Present: Clear explanations of technical concepts, business terminology defined in context - Improve: Glossary of accessibility terms, comparison analogies for complex concepts #### 🧩 Kinesthetic learners - Present: Some discussion of hands-on debugging and testing processes - Improve: Step-by-step accessibility testing checklists, interactive remediation workflows #### 🧠 Logical learners - Present: Clear timeline, quantified results, cause-and-effect relationships - Improve: Detailed project management templates, decision frameworks for accessibility prioritization #### 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Social learners - Present: Team collaboration stories, expert consultation examples - Improve: Community discussion prompts, team retrospective templates #### 🧘‍♀️ Solitary learners - Present: Individual contributor experiences and personal website building - Improve: Self-assessment tools for accessibility readiness, independent learning paths #### 🌿 Naturalistic learners - Present: Limited environmental connections - Improve: Accessibility as ecosystem health analogy, sustainable development practices ### 📊 Accessibility Assessment #### Screen reader semantics - Present: Audio format inherently accessible, clear heading structure in transcript - Improve: Enhanced transcript with speaker identification, time stamps for navigation #### Keyboard navigation - Present: Audio content doesn't require mouse interaction - Improve: Ensure web player controls are keyboard accessible #### Contrast and readability - Present: Text transcript available for visual review - Improve: High contrast theme options for transcript display #### Text resizing and reflow - Present: Standard web text formatting - Improve: Responsive transcript layout, text spacing options #### Media and captions - Present: Full transcript provided - Improve: Synchronized captions, downloadable transcript formats #### Forms and interactions - Present: Simple contact forms mentioned - Improve: Accessible feedback mechanisms for podcast suggestions ### 🌍 DEIB Assessment #### Cultural breadth - Present: US-focused perspective with EU compliance context - Improve: Global accessibility requirement examples, international developer perspectives #### Inclusive language - Present: Professional, respectful tone throughout discussion - Improve: More explicit discussion of disability community impact #### Neurodiversity support - Present: Clear structure, conversational tone - Improve: Content warnings for business stress discussions, processing time acknowledgments #### Representation - Present: Female product manager perspective in male-dominated field - Improve: Broader range of accessibility user experiences, diverse team member voices #### Psychological safety - Present: Honest discussion of challenges and failures - Improve: More explicit validation of accessibility struggles, resource lists for support ### ✅ Logical Validity #### Strong reasoning - Deductive strength: Clear cause-effect between accessibility fixes and business metrics - Inductive strength: Single case study generalizes well to similar WordPress products - Causal reasoning: Timeline supports accessibility work causing metric improvements - Analogical strength: LearnDash experience applicable to other plugin development teams #### Fallacies - Hasty generalization: Single success story may not apply to all products, but speaker acknowledges context specificity - Post hoc reasoning: Other factors besides accessibility may have influenced metrics, though speaker notes this limitation #### Tone of voice - Overall tone: Professional, honest, and reflective with appropriate acknowledgment of challenges and limitations ### 🛡️ DARVO Analysis - Deny: No denial patterns present - Attack: No attacking behavior observed - Reverse victim/offender: No victim/offender rever --- ## Full Transcript [00:12] Welcome to the Accessibility Craft [00:14] podcast, where we explore the art of [00:16] creating accessible websites while [00:17] trying out interesting craft beverages. [00:20] This podcast is brought to you by the [00:21] team at Equalized Digital, a WordPress [00:23] accessibility company and the proud [00:24] creators of the Accessibility Checker [00:26] plugin. And now on to the show. [00:31] >> Hey everybody, it's Amber and I am here [00:34] today with Chris. [00:36] >> Hey everybody. [00:38] >> And of course we have a special guest [00:41] with us today as well, Taylor. Hi [00:44] Taylor. [00:45] >> Hi. How are you? [00:48] >> Good. We're so glad to have you on [00:51] today. Thank you. For those out there [00:54] that don't know me, I started out at [00:57] Give WP in 2018. Spoke at several word [01:00] camps, probably about SEO, and ended up [01:03] as the Learn Dash product owner at [01:05] StellarWP last year in 2024. So, that's [01:09] why we're here today. We are so excited [01:11] to have you here today. Of course, we're [01:13] going to talk a little bit more about [01:15] Learn Dash and the accessibility journey [01:17] that you helped to spearhead over there [01:20] as a product manager. And for anyone who [01:23] wants to follow along, you have a great [01:25] blog post that you wrote about it, they [01:28] can find that with show notes and a full [01:31] transcript if they go to [01:32] accessibilitycraft.com [01:36] 5. [01:38] We start every episode with a beverage. [01:40] What are we drinking today, Chris? [01:41] >> I'm particularly excited for this one. [01:43] So, we are having Austin Eastiders is [01:46] Oh, the glare on that is horrible with [01:48] my lights. But Austin Eastiders is m Oh, [01:50] thank you both for assisting. Is making [01:52] a return to the podcast after quite a [01:55] long hiatus with a limited release [01:57] churro flavored hard cider. So, I really [02:01] like their stuff. Taylor, have you had [02:03] many cers before? Is it something you [02:05] really like? [02:06] >> I actually am a huge cider fan. I almost [02:09] only drink cers now. It must just be [02:12] because I live in an apple area. I don't [02:14] know. [02:15] >> Do you have breweries or cider? Do they [02:17] call them cider? I don't even know what [02:18] they call them when it's hard cider [02:19] around you. Can you get local stuff? I [02:22] think it's a cery. Yeah. So, I live [02:24] really close to the Julian Beer Company [02:27] and Julian Cider Company in San Diego [02:29] County. So, their cers, the Julian Cider [02:32] Company is really good. And then there's [02:34] another one called Golden State Cider [02:36] that I think might be from Sacramento [02:37] that I love. [02:38] >> We'll see how the Texas cider measures [02:41] up and you can be totally honest in your [02:43] review. Austin East Ciders is the local [02:46] mainstay cery here in central Texas. So, [02:49] we can crack these open. But they [02:50] promise that this is going to have some [02:53] sweet spice and a crisp apple finish. [02:56] And I love the art on the can, too. It's [02:59] got like this whole carnival motif going [03:01] on. [03:02] >> Yeah, it's like turquoise and reds and [03:04] orange and purples and stuff. And it [03:07] looks like the county fair. I will say I [03:09] thought it was a little funny. I feel [03:11] like we should explain what a churro is [03:13] because I don't Have you ever had [03:14] churros, Taylor? [03:15] >> Well, I'm from San Diego, so yeah, it [03:18] didn't occur to me that people might not [03:20] know what a churro is, but you're right. [03:24] >> Those of us in the southern part of the [03:25] US that are close to Mexico totally know [03:27] what churros are, but I think that's not [03:30] maybe super common in the north or [03:32] Europe. Maybe. I don't know. [03:34] >> Probably not. Maybe. I don't know. [03:36] >> Yeah. It's a fried doughnutlike batter [03:39] that has a a ridge to it. So, it's like [03:42] crinkly and then they usually coat them [03:44] in cinnamon and sugar. Sometimes you dip [03:46] them in chocolate or dolce de leche, [03:49] which is like a cooked down caramel made [03:51] out of milk. They're a super popular [03:52] fair food and we [03:54] >> right Mexican. [03:56] >> Yeah. Yeah. It's [03:57] >> totally It smells like a churro. [04:00] >> How funny is it that it's churro and [04:03] it's all like gluten-free? [04:06] Normally I don't think Cheerios are [04:08] glutenfree. [04:09] >> No, they're definitely made of like a [04:11] lot of flour. [04:15] >> It does smell cinnamony. [04:17] >> Yeah, it has that cinnamon and it's [04:19] definitely cinnamon on the nose. [04:20] Cinnamon forward. I like the flavor. [04:22] What I find particularly interesting [04:24] about this flavor, it's not just apple [04:26] juice with some cinnamon in it. like [04:28] there is a bit of a baked good type [04:30] undertone and I don't know how they [04:32] achieved that just with fermenting apple [04:35] juice but [04:37] >> it's got to be something with the [04:38] cinnamon or like there's got to be [04:40] caramel in it or something like that cuz [04:41] I taste it too. It's really good. It [04:43] tastes exactly like an apple churro. [04:45] >> Mhm. [04:46] >> Do they make apple churros? I feel like [04:48] I've only ever had like cinnamon. [04:50] >> I don't know but this is how I imagined [04:52] it would taste. [04:53] >> It also kind of makes me think of like [04:55] you mentioned apple orchards. Makes me [04:56] think of like the apple cider donuts we [04:58] would sometimes get in New England when [05:01] we lived up there with the cinnamon [05:03] sugar on the outside. Those are legit [05:05] good. Do they do [05:05] >> Those are good. [05:06] >> Do they do apple [05:09] or cider donuts? [05:11] >> No cider donuts, but we have really [05:13] famous apple pies out here. Like people [05:17] will fight you for them over the [05:19] holidays. [05:21] >> So, you know what I'll give this that is [05:23] really interesting is it is pretty dry. [05:25] It is not sweet, which people who listen [05:27] to this podcast a lot know that I'm not [05:30] a big like sweet beverage person. So, [05:34] >> I don't like sweet either. [05:35] >> It surprised me because I thought for [05:37] sure [05:39] >> the it's like warm cinnamon, vanilla [05:41] cake, and toasted sugar is what they [05:43] said the aroma was. [05:46] And And I'm thinking, combine that with [05:47] apple. And I'm like, it's going to be [05:49] too sweet for me. But I don't think it's [05:51] sweet at all. Actually, I really like [05:53] it. [05:54] >> Yeah, I do too. And I also don't like [05:56] sweet things. When I drink cers, they're [05:57] always dry. So [06:00] >> yeah, this is a great limited release. [06:03] And I hope they make it a less limited [06:05] release and they make this again because [06:07] I would totally buy this again. So maybe [06:09] that segus us to our not so scientific [06:12] rating system, Taylor. So you're [06:14] uninitiated. Basically, we give things [06:16] individually a thumbs up, thumbs in the [06:18] middle, or thumbs down. So I'll lead [06:21] while y'all think. I I think this one is [06:23] a solid thumbs up for me. I like all of [06:26] Austin Eastider stuff and even among [06:29] their selections up there for me. This [06:31] is really quite good. [06:34] >> That's cool. [06:35] >> Yeah, I'm I am definitely a thumbs up as [06:38] well. I will I would buy this one again. [06:40] I like it as far as ciders go. [06:42] >> I also give it a thumbs up. Also, I'm [06:44] going to be in Austin in like a month, [06:46] so I'm probably going to try to try it [06:48] again. [06:49] >> So, I I feel like I have to ask. You [06:51] have your local favorites. How does this [06:53] measure up? [06:55] >> I would say it's probably better than [06:57] the Julian cider company I was talking [06:59] about. They have really good cers, but [07:00] they tend their flavored cers tend to be [07:02] too sweet for me. [07:04] >> Okay. I am shocked because there's so [07:06] much good stuff that comes out of [07:08] California. I thought for sure that they [07:10] would have won, but feather and Austin [07:12] cider cap. [07:13] >> Well, I would say Golden State Cider [07:15] probably still wins for me, but that [07:16] one's like nationally distributed, so I [07:18] don't know if it counts. might not be as [07:20] craft anymore. [07:21] >> Well, of course, we'd love to have a [07:25] drink with you and chat, but we did [07:27] invite you here to talk a little bit [07:28] about accessibility as well. We're going [07:31] to talk about behind the scenes of Learn [07:33] Dash's accessibility overhaul. I think [07:36] it'd be good to maybe start with, can [07:39] you tell us more about what prompted the [07:42] decision to begin a full accessibility [07:44] overhaul at Learn Dash? [07:47] Yeah. So, this answer is a little [07:49] embarrassing because it really came down [07:52] to the EU deadline looming with [07:55] everybody needing to have their own [07:57] accessibility in place, all of our [07:58] customers. So, that June deadline in [08:00] 2025 was huge. And it wasn't necessarily [08:03] prioritized on any of the stellar [08:05] products at all until leadership made it [08:08] a priority if that makes sense. U with [08:10] Learn Dash in particular at that time, [08:11] we were in a state where it was like [08:13] figure out how to get revenue up. [08:15] Everybody needs to get revenue up and [08:17] accessibility isn't one of the things [08:18] that is seen as revenue driving. So, it [08:22] really did take leadership actually [08:24] buying in and making it a priority [08:26] across the company. [08:28] >> And maybe circle back at the very end [08:30] and find out if there was some revenue [08:35] tied to this, but don't spoil it now. [08:38] >> I won't. [08:38] >> All right. So, so leadership has bought [08:40] in where in the past once they made that [08:44] decision. What did the actual process of [08:47] overhauling accessibility look like? [08:49] Like how long did it take? Anything that [08:51] you can share? [08:53] >> Yeah, so we got our accessibility audit [08:56] from you all I think at the end of 2024 [08:58] and at that time we were in the middle [09:00] of some other high priority work. So we [09:02] scheduled it just to kick off in like [09:04] January, February of 2025 and Learn Dash [09:07] at that time only had like 60s something [09:09] line items. So it didn't look that [09:11] daunting and we kind of dug our feet on [09:13] it which later on we regretted. When we [09:15] actually kicked off the project we went [09:17] through with the engineers who were [09:18] going to be responsible for it and [09:20] marked everything in a spreadsheet [09:22] either straightforward and easy or needs [09:25] a discussion. If it was easy, it went [09:27] into Jira in the epic and just kind of [09:29] not got forgotten about but got grouped [09:31] with work and sprints and went on its [09:33] way. If it needed discussion once we [09:35] were coming up to that grouping of work, [09:37] we would talk about it before sprint [09:39] planning and then I would put it in Jira [09:40] and it would go through that process [09:42] too. And one of the things that I think [09:44] was one of the hardest pieces to [09:47] accomplish is also balancing your road [09:49] map during this work. So we divided our [09:52] developer team kind of in half. And I [09:54] don't know if a lot of people know this, [09:55] but the Learn Dash development team was [09:56] only like four people strong plus a [09:58] lead. [09:59] >> How many websites do you know? [10:02] >> 150,000 websites. [10:04] >> Wow. That's a lot for only four [10:06] developers. [10:07] >> Yes. So quite a lot of websites. Four [10:10] developers plus a lead engineer. So [10:11] five. But the lead engineer, you know, [10:14] doesn't really have much time to [10:15] actually engineer. He loves doing it, [10:17] but he didn't have much time. So the two [10:21] engineers stayed on the accessibility [10:22] track and the other two worked on either [10:24] high priority maintenance or a feature [10:26] set and those were paired together so [10:28] that the feature set being worked on [10:30] both teams was the same at the same [10:31] time. So each release was like here's a [10:34] bunch of stuff for quizzes. A lot of it [10:36] is accessibility but here's like 15 [10:38] other things that are either valuable or [10:40] we fix that you've been asking for. And [10:42] that told a much better story. So it [10:45] took about four months and we had 77 [10:49] total line items in the change log that [10:52] I found when I was going back with AI [10:54] over 11 releases. So of course it's [10:57] never done. So that was just our initial [10:59] MVP get this out the door for the [11:01] conformance report. And a couple weeks [11:04] ago, Learn Dash was really close to [11:06] finishing the notes add-on accessibility [11:09] work as well. So there was an add-on [11:11] being added into the mix. We initially [11:12] only did the core product and we're [11:14] going to phase in add-ons. [11:17] >> Gotcha. So you had mentioned that there [11:20] were some items in our initial audit of [11:24] 60 issues that were more difficult and [11:28] you're like these need discussion. I'm [11:30] curious if you could talk a little bit [11:32] about what some of those things were [11:34] that were the most challenging and how [11:39] you handled those. [11:42] Two most challenging pieces were course [11:44] progression and quizzes. So within Learn [11:47] Dash, it's obviously a very old legacy [11:50] product. There's a lot of pieces on the [11:51] front end that are difficult to work [11:52] with, much technical debt, but we were [11:55] working through it. And the course [11:57] progression piece was one of the hardest [11:59] parts because it's such an important [12:01] part of using Learn Dash as a student [12:03] that we didn't want to mess it up for [12:05] current users the way that it currently [12:06] worked, but the way that it worked at [12:08] that time was not accessible. So we made [12:11] the change and I'll talk a little bit [12:13] more about that, what the response to [12:15] that in a second, but that change was [12:16] really difficult. I think we went back [12:17] and forth with your team several times [12:19] on it. So to describe for people that [12:22] particular one was that in learn dash [12:25] you have the ability to make people [12:26] watch videos or not and then they hit [12:29] like complete to mark a lesson as done. [12:32] And originally it was you'd mark the [12:34] lesson as done and then it would just [12:36] move you to the next lesson and not [12:38] really say anything. And we're like well [12:41] how's a blind person supposed to know [12:43] that it worked? that like there'd be a [12:45] little check mark on the sidebar maybe [12:47] that oh this one is complete now and now [12:48] you're on the next page and it was just [12:50] like a whole different loss of context [12:53] and not really knowing where you are and [12:55] not knowing if what you did worked or [12:56] not. [12:57] >> Yeah. So difficult to figure out what [12:59] does that look like. [13:00] >> Yeah. And with learn dash being built in [13:03] PHP templates fixing that was not easy. [13:07] So we came up with a solution that [13:09] everybody actually hated. We got so much [13:13] backlash on that change that we had to [13:16] actually add a setting into learn dash [13:18] to turn it off and go back to the old [13:20] setting. But on it it says this is not [13:22] accessible. Are you sure that you want [13:24] to do this? [13:26] >> So the solution was it reloads the same [13:29] page and now shows it as complete with [13:32] the success message says it's complete [13:35] now and people can click to go to the [13:37] next lesson maybe. [13:38] >> Right. you have it's an extra click and [13:40] so some people really just wanted that [13:42] like automatic progression which [13:45] just for some reason we could there was [13:47] just so much happening with the PHP [13:49] template they were like we're not going [13:50] to be able to fix this without spending [13:52] six months or do it this way so [13:55] >> it was a really big challenge and then [13:58] matrix quiz question type was the other [14:00] challenge [14:01] >> yeah I think the way that you handled it [14:04] though was you came up with a solution [14:06] that didn't take forever for you to [14:08] develop fix the accessibility problem [14:10] and then you allowed a setting. So then [14:12] at least the course creator is the one [14:14] making that choice and they know whether [14:16] their website has to be compliant or [14:18] not. I feel like that's a good happy [14:19] medium on how you dealt with a difficult [14:21] thing. Yeah. And we took the same [14:24] approach with the matrix sorting [14:25] question. We had tons of problems with [14:27] quiz questions. It took forever to [14:28] finish the quiz part of the project. But [14:30] that question in particular we left [14:32] behind because it wasn't doable without [14:35] refactoring. So a matrix sorting [14:37] question is where you're you drag and [14:39] drop answers not in a single list but in [14:42] two lists. So you're dropping answers [14:44] across different lists. And that is [14:47] really hard to make accessible with a [14:49] PHP template. It just everything that [14:53] they were talking about doing would take [14:54] way too long. And we had already planned [14:57] a much longer term project to overhaul [14:59] the entire course builder which would [15:01] include quizzes and then eventually a [15:03] new front end. So, I was like, let's [15:04] just leave this. Put a warning on this [15:06] one, too. People don't need the matrix [15:08] sorting question. There's like 16 [15:10] question types for now. It'll be okay. [15:12] And then the PDF certificate builder, [15:14] too, was another thing that just wasn't [15:16] accessible. And to fix it required [15:18] replacing the entire library. So, that [15:20] was another piece that was probably [15:22] going to be the first piece of the new [15:23] system we were going to refactor. [15:26] Mhm. And [15:27] >> I know we want to get into what the [15:29] impact was for Learn Dash, the company, [15:33] but before we get into that, I want to [15:36] ask about the impact on the users of [15:39] your software for some of these [15:41] improvements. Is there anything you can [15:42] share or comment on as far as like how [15:45] these accessibility improvements [15:47] improved or changed things for users of [15:49] the tool? [15:51] Yeah, actually probably one of my [15:53] favorite moments at Learn Dash was [15:55] getting an email from a developer [15:57] thanking us for doing accessibility work [15:59] and saying that they purchased the [16:00] product because we were doing that work [16:02] and being really transparent about it. [16:05] That was super exciting. I that's the [16:07] only thing that really stands out in my [16:09] mind. I know that there were other [16:10] pieces in there, but that in particular [16:12] just like anecdotally says it all. [16:16] >> Yeah. I mean, I feel like if we just [16:19] look back at everything that got [16:21] changed, which I think people could see, [16:23] we can put in the show notes a link over [16:25] to the accessibility statement that you [16:27] had written for the Learn Dash website. [16:29] And also your blog post summarizes like [16:32] some of the fixes that were in there. I [16:34] mean, there was a lot that had to do [16:37] with keyboard functionality, which would [16:39] impact both blind people and sighted [16:41] people who can't use a mouse or prefer [16:43] not to use a mouse. labeling of items [16:45] for blind people. I don't know. Can you [16:48] think of any other things that had big [16:50] impacts on [16:52] >> the keyboard accessibility was a huge [16:53] one. One of our developers in particular [16:55] worked through that a lot. The there was [16:57] a couple places where we had color [17:00] contrast issues that were so bad. I [17:02] don't know how they weren't reported as [17:03] bugs. [17:05] >> Oh, like I can see normally and I have a [17:08] hard time reading this. [17:09] >> Exactly. So, there were a couple things [17:12] in there that like the color contrast [17:14] issues made a huge difference. Some of [17:16] them were subtle, but some of them were [17:17] like, "How was this actually even in [17:19] here before it had gotten changed in [17:22] some way, probably over time, and nobody [17:24] noticed?" But I do think that the [17:26] keyboard accessibility was the biggest [17:28] piece because tabbing around and learn [17:30] dash I didn't realize was so bad until [17:32] this project. [17:34] >> So, do you want to talk about then on [17:36] the flip side? You mentioned that you [17:38] did hear from at least one person who [17:41] said, "We're going to buy Learn Dash now [17:42] because you're investing in [17:44] accessibility." Can you share any of the [17:47] other results that Learn Dash saw from [17:50] this accessibility investment and [17:53] whether that was like increased revenue [17:55] or maybe reduced support tickets or any [17:57] sort of KPIs that could be tied back to [17:59] it? [18:00] >> Yeah. So this was one of three [18:03] initiatives that I think led to these [18:05] metrics but one of the primary ones. We [18:08] in the first half of 2025 compared to [18:11] 2024 Learn Dash's support volume new [18:14] support tickets went down by 30%. So [18:17] accessibility was a huge part of that. [18:19] We had tons of tickets on accessibility. [18:22] Being able to go back to those folks and [18:23] say hey we fixed it was amazing. We did [18:26] another similar project for performance [18:28] improvements on reporting, but I think [18:30] accessibility work impacted way more [18:32] people. So that 30% support volume [18:36] dropping is just incredible. We actually [18:38] ended up losing a couple of support [18:39] folks last year and didn't need to [18:41] replace them because the volume was [18:43] down. [18:44] >> Wow. Yeah, that is a huge difference. [18:46] And that is a great example of like a [18:49] bottom line improvement that [18:50] accessibility can bring. [18:52] >> Yeah. And then the other metric is [18:54] refunds. our refunds were reduced by [18:56] 42%. So just insane percentages [19:00] year-over-year just by focusing on [19:03] accessibility in particular. The other [19:05] piece that we did was auto configuring [19:07] Stripe web hooks for folks which did [19:09] have a high volume of support but not [19:10] nearly as much as accessibility. [19:13] >> That's really cool. And [19:16] I think it would be interesting to know [19:19] if there were any like major lessons or [19:22] takeaways you had or if any that you can [19:25] share on behalf of the dev team maybe [19:28] like what the takeaways were going [19:30] through that remediation process like [19:32] things that they would do differently [19:34] now or that you would do differently [19:35] with future products. [19:37] >> Yeah, I think one of the things that [19:38] especially our development team learned [19:40] a lot about is putting accessibility [19:42] first. it was something that had been [19:45] talked about but not necessarily put [19:47] into practice and from that point [19:50] forward it wasn't um negotiable. So [19:54] there was a couple projects that had [19:56] kind of started before this work and [19:57] then were lingering and somebody asked [19:59] do I need to make this accessible and I [20:00] was like you shouldn't even be asking me [20:02] that question. So I think making that a [20:05] primary product requirement for [20:07] everything was one of the biggest [20:08] lessons because you never want to have [20:10] to go back. That's actually a pain. And [20:12] then our developers I think learned that [20:14] they don't have to be the expert. They [20:16] just need to work with the experts and [20:17] not be afraid to ask questions. So I [20:20] think for them that was a huge piece of [20:22] it because there were times when they [20:24] were just struggling on their own and I [20:25] was like why don't we go to equalize [20:27] digital and ask a question and they [20:29] would get unblocked very quickly and [20:30] once they started realizing that the [20:32] work sped up a lot and then for me for [20:35] product ownership and management getting [20:37] buyin from leadership I think really [20:39] requires writing the story and your road [20:41] map and making sure that it pairs well [20:43] with other things because otherwise you [20:46] are going to compromise revenue probably [20:48] you do have to actually keep up value [20:51] while you're doing this work and it [20:52] could take a long time for a lot of [20:54] products. Learn Dash actually had very [20:56] few problems compared to some of the [20:57] other stellar brands. [21:00] >> I I love relating accessibility to other [21:03] KPIs that are also important because it [21:05] does have a surprising amount of impact [21:07] you've observed on things that you [21:09] wouldn't necessarily surface level think [21:12] are related like support or refund [21:14] volume. It's like, you know, I don't [21:16] think your leadership would have guessed [21:17] at if you had asked them, "What impact [21:19] do you think this is going to have?" [21:20] Unless I'm wrong. You can correct me if [21:21] I'm wrong. [21:22] >> I think they were just trying to check a [21:24] box. Not like anything bad on their [21:26] part, but they had a lot going on and I [21:28] think they were like, "We have to do [21:29] this, so just get it done." Not really [21:31] expecting much of an actual ROI on it at [21:33] that time. [21:34] >> Yeah. [21:35] >> Yeah. So, pleasant surprise. [21:36] >> Totally. And being able to present [21:38] accessibility in the language that other [21:41] people speak, particularly decision [21:43] makers, is so critically important and [21:47] something that I've spent a lot of time [21:48] talking to, you know, agency owners and [21:50] other people trying to advocate for [21:52] accessibility. Accessibility alone, as [21:54] much as it should, doesn't sell itself [21:56] all that well. But if you can relate it [21:58] to stuff that people care about be where [22:01] you have, you know, proof or numbers to [22:03] back up that you know it's going to have [22:05] that impact, right? That is so powerful [22:07] and a great way to advance this cause. [22:10] >> Definitely. There are so many ways you [22:12] can sell it. I've sold it by telling [22:13] people that it helps with SEO and LLM [22:16] capabilities because it does. And so you [22:18] want to drive more traffic, make your [22:19] site accessible. It just depends on what [22:21] they value the most is really how you [22:23] have to sell it. [22:25] >> Yeah. So, I want to dive a little bit [22:28] more into like lessons learned and [22:30] things you're doing differently and what [22:32] you're working on now, but we're going [22:33] to take a short commercial first and [22:35] then we'll be right back. [22:39] This episode of Accessibility Craft is [22:41] sponsored by Equalized Digital [22:43] Accessibility Checker, the WordPress [22:45] plug-in that helps you find [22:46] accessibility problems before you hit [22:48] publish. Thousands of businesses, [22:50] nonprofits, universities, and government [22:52] agencies around the world trust [22:54] Accessibility Checker to help their [22:56] teams find, fix, and prevent [22:58] accessibility problems on an ongoing [23:00] basis. New to accessibility? Equalized [23:03] digital accessibility checker is here to [23:05] teach you every step of the way. 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[23:53] So, I teased a little bit before the [23:55] commercial, but I know you have been [23:57] working on rebuilding your personal [23:59] website and you told me that you are [24:01] doing more with accessibility and you've [24:03] been using accessibility checker and I'm [24:05] sort of curious now that you've gone [24:08] through this whole process with Learn [24:10] Dash and you're using accessibility [24:11] checker like what are you doing [24:13] differently now that you're thinking [24:14] about accessibility? [24:16] So, in the past, honestly, I was not the [24:19] greatest web developer. So, I would just [24:23] build sites and not really think about [24:24] accessibility very much. I just kind of [24:27] eyeballed it and didn't care. [24:29] >> How was your site built? Can you share a [24:31] little bit about that? Just background. [24:33] >> Yeah. So, on this current site, I [24:36] implemented Cadence and Cadence Pro [24:38] template tools and then I started from [24:40] scratch and built my own site template [24:43] kind of. So, I was going for a [24:46] minimalist kind of vibe and it spiraled [24:48] out of control into this whole fake [24:52] software repo thing representing me as a [24:55] product manager. So, it's supposed to [24:57] look minimalist, but it doesn't really [24:59] anymore. And my goal was to have like [25:02] high contrast colors, just make sure [25:03] that it was accessible, very simple, [25:05] don't use complicated blocks, anything [25:07] like that. That did not happen. The more [25:10] it [25:11] >> never works out the way we think it [25:12] will. It's so it's ridiculous. I was [25:14] like, I'm just going to get this site up [25:15] overnight so that I have something up [25:17] and then the more feedback I got, the [25:18] more out of control it got. And two [25:20] weeks later, I had this full-fledged [25:21] website with like custom post types on [25:24] it and everything. So, like multiple [25:26] custom, it's a problem. So, I [25:29] unfortunately thought about [25:30] accessibility a little bit late in the [25:31] game this time, too. But I did install [25:33] the checker after I had a couple pages [25:35] built. Realized I shouldn't have used a [25:37] couple blocks that I used, but I mostly [25:38] passed, so I was excited about that. [25:41] >> Yeah. cadence as a starting point was a [25:44] smart move there, too. [25:45] >> Yeah, they got 100%. [25:46] >> Yep. Yep. [25:48] >> And they're Yeah. 100% on all the things [25:50] that we tested for the report and [25:51] they're continuing to work through other [25:53] issues that they're just having us do [25:56] auditing for. So, yeah. [25:58] >> Cool. Yeah, I love using Cadence, [26:00] especially knowing that it was [26:01] accessible out of the box was a good [26:04] first step for me. But yeah, so once I [26:06] got the pro tool, I did a full-sight [26:07] scan. I found some things. I have not [26:09] fixed them yet, but I will. [26:13] So yeah, it's been interesting. [26:15] >> Do you have any tips at this stage you [26:18] would share for anyone who's working on [26:20] a new website for accessibility [26:22] implementation? Because it sounds like [26:23] you're kind of diying, right? You're in [26:25] there, you're doing all this yourself. [26:26] Like what advice would you give to [26:28] someone else doing kind of the same [26:30] thing? [26:30] >> Even if you're not diying and you're [26:32] working from a design that was passed as [26:34] accessible, I think it's really [26:36] important to install the accessibility [26:38] checker up front and check as you go. [26:41] when I implemented some tables and tabs [26:44] or something that now I've got to go [26:46] back and figure out where they are and [26:47] how to make them accessible and if I had [26:49] been checking along the way that [26:50] wouldn't be a problem because the [26:52] backend piece is really what you don't [26:54] see in the design. So making sure that [26:56] it is able to be interacted with by [26:58] keyboards and a screen reader is really [27:00] important upfront. [27:02] >> Yeah, that's a good point about blocks. [27:05] I just did a WordPress accessibility [27:07] meetup with Brian Cords and he was using [27:10] this block for his podcast transcript [27:13] that just came from seriously simple [27:15] podcasts and it collapses the transcript [27:17] and it's totally not accessible and [27:20] makes it really difficult for a screen [27:22] reader user to know how to expand and [27:24] find the transcript or even a keyboard [27:25] user that is cited. And the solution [27:28] that we discovered now that 6.9 has [27:30] accordionss is he should just use that [27:32] block instead. But this means now he's [27:34] gonna have to go back through all his [27:36] old podcast posts and like copy and [27:38] paste the content and move it around. So [27:40] it's definitely better if you can figure [27:42] out what blocks are good really early [27:44] on. Then you don't have to rebuild parts [27:46] of your pages. [27:47] >> Yeah. Or if you're using a block that's [27:49] super custom that you need to use, [27:51] figure out how to customize it more to [27:52] actually be accessible before you start [27:54] implementing it everywhere. Because that [27:56] was my biggest mistake. [27:59] Well, so I know you have recently moved [28:02] on from Learn Dash. I'm sort of curious. [28:05] This is going to be one of our last [28:07] episodes of the year, but it will come [28:08] out before 2026. But do you have [28:10] anything exciting coming up in 2026 or [28:13] anything else that you want to share [28:16] with everybody who's [28:18] >> Yeah, a couple things. So, I did move on [28:20] from Learn Dash and I do have a new [28:22] position that I'm starting soon. It's at [28:24] high velocity, so hosting entirely [28:27] outside of WordPress at this point, [28:29] which is different for me. So, that'll [28:30] be a fun challenge. I'm excited. And [28:32] then in my personal life, actually, [28:34] David Johnson, the brand bard from [28:36] StellarWP, is moving across the country [28:39] to California to come be with me. We [28:42] started dating a couple months ago, but [28:44] we met in 2019 at Word Camp US. So, [28:49] yeah, it's a WordPress love story. [28:51] >> It's a WordPress love story. I love [28:53] that. That is [28:55] >> Congratulations on many fronts. [28:58] >> Thanks. [28:59] >> Yeah, that's really cool. Those were [29:02] most of the questions that we had [29:04] planned for today. I don't know if [29:06] there's anything else that you want to [29:07] share with anyone. We really appreciate [29:10] you coming on though. [29:12] >> No, I think that's everything. This was [29:14] one of my favorite projects at Learn [29:16] Dash. Up front, I was not excited about [29:18] it, but in the end, it became so [29:20] rewarding. So, I'm just happy to get to [29:22] talk about it. [29:24] >> Awesome. [29:25] >> So, of course, I guess you may be a [29:28] little more difficult to find if you're [29:29] not working in WordPress land every day, [29:31] but where can people reach out to you if [29:34] they want to follow up? [29:36] >> A couple places. So, either LinkedIn or [29:39] my website has a contact form or just [29:41] contacted. [29:44] Which is my website domain. All those [29:47] are a great place to find me. [29:50] Wonderful. For everybody listening, this [29:53] is our last episode of 2025 and for the [29:56] first time ever in the history of the [29:57] podcast, we are going to take a short [29:59] break so that we can refine some of our [30:03] processes and do some of those things. [30:05] So, there will not be any new episodes [30:07] in January, but sometime in February, we [30:10] will resume. So, just giving you a heads [30:12] up, but we will be back. Don't worry, [30:15] don't delete us from your podcast app. [30:17] We will be back. Thanks so much, Taylor. [30:20] And hope everybody has happy holidays. [30:22] >> Thanks for having me. [30:24] >> Thanks, Taylor. Bye, everybody. [30:26] >> Bye. [30:30] >> Thanks for listening to Accessibility [30:32] Craft. If you enjoyed this episode, [30:34] please subscribe in your podcast app to [30:36] get notified when future episodes [30:37] release. You can find Accessibility [30:39] Craft on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and [30:42] more. And if building accessibility [30:43] awareness is important to you, please [30:45] consider rating Accessibility Craft five [30:47] stars on Apple Podcasts. Accessibility [30:50] Craft is produced by Equalized Digital [30:52] and hosted by Amber Hines, Chris Hines, [30:54] and Steve Jones. Steve Jones composed [30:56] our theme music. Learn how we help make [30:58] thousands of WordPress websites more [31:00] accessible at equalizedigital.com.